[tw5] Re: Action on any button Proof of Concept

[PMario]

Hi,

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 1:29:40 AM UTC+2, TonyM wrote:

> Mario and Coda, Thanks for the feedback. 
>
>- I wonder how these alternates stand against my suggestion of hackability 
>through patchability 
>
>.
>
> I did see that post, and will respond in more detail there. 

Short version here: 

With TWclassic we used "monkey patching", which creates a lot of problems 
. A patch always makes 
assumptions about how the code, that needs to be patched looks like. ... If 
a different, poorly written plugin has completely invalidated those 
assumptions, that approach will fail. 

The biggest problem will be debugging and maintainability. 

-mario

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[tw5] Re: Action on any button Proof of Concept

[PMario]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 9:12:28 PM UTC+2, coda coder wrote:
..

> which is obviously unworkable. But now I'm seeing:
>
> <$button preactions=<> actions=<> postactions=<
> > ...>
>
>
Hi, 

That's _not_, how it was meant. Now you have 6 insertion points. 

There will be only 1 "actions" parameter. The macro, which is connected 
needs some logic similar to what Tony did in the POC. 

-mario

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[tw5] Re: Action on any button Proof of Concept

[coda coder]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 6:29:40 PM UTC-5, TonyM wrote:
>
> Mario and Coda, Thanks for the feedback. 
>
>- I wonder how these alternates stand against my suggestion of hackability 
>through patchability 
>
>.
>
> If you're talking about your tagging idea to extend hackability of core 
buttons... that's on another level entirely. The pseudocode I mentioned is 
nowhere near as powerful. And really, my proposal is only a "nice to have" 
kinda thing.  To a coder (cough) it would "feel right" (well, it does to 
this coder, anyway ;))

 

>
>- Please note for the "action on any button" I propose does not demand 
>any differentiation between pre/main and post actions. It is simply used 
> as 
>a trigger.
>- Can you explain further when and how one would want to 
>differentiation between pre/main and post actions
>
> I stand to be corrected but it seems to me deprecating actions widgets 
> inside buttons is causing more problems than advantages and solves a 
> "problem" not visible to most users and designers.
>

That's true. But I wasn't proposing deprecation of the old method, more an 
"as well as". And it's similar to your tagging approach - if the pre-* 
exists, call it, otherwise do nothing. And of course, when I say "exists", 
it can exist anywhere in the current scope, not necessarily in the same 
tiddler body (much like we approach macros like currentTiddler, for 
example).

And Tony, remember how your tagging method works - the extension mechanism 
you've provided would pull in code from anywhere given a tag match.
 

>
> You are both already talking about fundamental changes to the button 
> widget so it seems revisiting this is almost necessary anyway.
>

Always. Again, "as well as" not "instead of".


> Perhaps another strategy would be to build a new widget, perhaps 
> action-button that has the additional subtlety encoded. Perhaps designed 
> from the ground up so that it works equally well with actions inside the 
> button widgets, so this need not be deprecated.
>

No. Extend, not replace.


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[tw5] Re: Action on any button Proof of Concept

[TonyM]

Mario and Coda, Thanks for the feedback. 

   - I wonder how these alternates stand against my suggestion of hackability 
   through patchability 
   
   .
   - Please note for the "action on any button" I propose does not demand 
   any differentiation between pre/main and post actions. It is simply used as 
   a trigger.
   - Can you explain further when and how one would want to differentiation 
   between pre/main and post actions

On refactoring to handle pre, body and post actions

   - I must say I acknowledge this depreciation of action widgets in the 
   button widget body.
   - I do not understand the technical reason for this and have expressed 
   my dissatisfaction with this because it stops buttons and their actions 
   being able to be a self contained piece of code, but I also see now it will 
   be difficult to do a number of things we can do now. 
   - You can see this even more when you want to apply conditional actions 
   inside the button, or additional actions or if you are trying to apply 
   actions inside a list to operate on sets of tiddlers. 
   - Imagine if we were no longer permitted to code action widgets inside 
   buttons how would we address my design, your suggested pre and post 
   actions, conditional and bulk actions?
   - The idea that buttons can only be designed to work by reference to 
   external definitions of macros/variables containing the actions is to me 
   retrograde at least for the average user.

I stand to be corrected but it seems to me deprecating actions widgets 
inside buttons is causing more problems than advantages and solves a 
"problem" not visible to most users and designers.  When this happens in 
other aspects of my life, *when the cure is worse than the disease*, my 
usual strategy is to return to the original problem and revisit it to see 
if there is an alternate way to address it. Perhaps the system code can be 
refactored to address any perceived technical issues while retaining the 
current outwards functionality.  The problem is because I do not understand 
the problem this is supposed to solve I can't  try and find a solution.

You are both already talking about fundamental changes to the button widget 
so it seems revisiting this is almost necessary anyway.

Perhaps another strategy would be to build a new widget, perhaps 
action-button that has the additional subtlety encoded. Perhaps designed 
from the ground up so that it works equally well with actions inside the 
button widgets, so this need not be deprecated.

I know you are both quite capable of creative thinking, and deep knowledge, 
so I would hope you can give this suggestion a little more thought.

Thanks heaps
Tony

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 5:12:28 AM UTC+10, coda coder wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 12:25:21 PM UTC-5, PMario wrote:
>>
>>
>>  - pre-actions and
>>  - post-actions
>>
>>
>>
> Thanks Mario. I had similar thoughts but couldn't find a way to express 
> them. Notionally, in my head I had something like this:
>
> <$pre-actions>
> <$button ...>
> <$post-actions>
>
> which is obviously unworkable. But now I'm seeing:
>
> <$button preactions=<> actions=<> postactions=<
> > ...>
>
>
> I also like this, but I don't know if it's feasible:
>
> \define my-button-pre-actions() ...
> \define my-button-actions() ...
> \define my-button-post-actions() ...
>
> <$button data-id="my-button"  ...>
>
>
>
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Action on any button Proof of Concept

[coda coder]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 12:25:21 PM UTC-5, PMario wrote:
>
>
>  - pre-actions and
>  - post-actions
>
>
>
Thanks Mario. I had similar thoughts but couldn't find a way to express 
them. Notionally, in my head I had something like this:

<$pre-actions>
<$button ...>
<$post-actions>

which is obviously unworkable. But now I'm seeing:

<$button preactions=<> actions=<> postactions=<
> ...>


I also like this, but I don't know if it's feasible:

\define my-button-pre-actions() ...
\define my-button-actions() ...
\define my-button-post-actions() ...

<$button data-id="my-button"  ...>




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[tw5] Re: Action on any button Proof of Concept

[PMario]

Hi Tony, 

I think your POC is very well thought out! ... I do see some 
inconsistencies, but most of them are inherited from the core.

The inconsistencies come from the ongoing development of the <$button> 
widget, late adding of "actions" parameter and adding the <$action-xxx> 
widgets. 

So I think, the first step would need to be, that we "clean" the existing 
core/ui/buttons/xxx from the message-parameter. This parameter can be 
replaced by defining the button "actions" parameter using action-widgets. 

The same thing can happen with <$action-xx> widgets in the button-body. 
They can also be moved to the "actions" macro. Which also has some 
advantages. eg: <> macro is re-calculated on button click and not on 
button rendering. ... 

As I wrote at the GitHub issue 
, 
we have several action "insertion points". Every single one of them can be 
a valid usecase for different type of users. With the core, we need to be 
as open _and_ generic as possible. This can lead to more complexity as we 
want. 

With all actions in the "actions-macro" definition, there are only 2 
insertion points left. ... 

 - pre-actions and
 - post-actions

This mechanism makes everything predictable and much simpler as 4 possible 
insertion points. ... BUT ... It also means that we need to rewrite the 
existing core buttons and make them "predictable" ... AND ... 100% 
backwards compatible. 

Compatibility _may_ be hard part here. 

just some thoughts. 
mario





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[tw5] Re: Action on any button Proof of Concept

[coda coder]

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 5:27:09 PM UTC-5, TonyM wrote:
>
> Please tell me more why you think I should not use tags.


Sorry, Tony. I completely misunderstood how you were using them. Now that 
I've played around with the POC more, I can see better what you've done.  
Good stuff. Me likey. Lots!

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[tw5] Re: Action on any button Proof of Concept

[TonyM]

Coda

Working with link catcher is important to be able to place custom actions on 
opening tiddlers and the various ways you can.

I can visualise a few ways to do this without tags but this is a standard 
mechanisium for exposing hackability in tiddlywiki. The view and edit 
templates, sidebar and sidebar tabs and more use this.

Please tell me more why you think I should not use tags.

If you think that its important we not use tags do you have a design pattern 
that achieves the same result? E.g. any tiddler, any number, ordering, 
cumulative changes possible etc...

Finally if I deliver this as a plugin in the interim, I wonder how plugin 
shadows interact with core shadows?

Thanks for your feedback.

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[tw5] Re: Action on any button Proof of Concept

[coda coder]

That's pretty cool, Tony. Something like this (meaning, "if it's there, use 
it") should be in the core. It adds extensibility to the core and increases 
hackability.

Mat - what Tony has done is something akin to the LinkCatcher widget 
https://tiddlywiki.com/#LinkCatcherWidget.

Tony - you might want to look again at LinkCatcher - maybe workout how to 
remove the need for tags?



On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 5:06:18 AM UTC-5, TonyM wrote:
>
> Mat
>
> The idea is it uses the one macro with a tag name to locate the actions to 
> apply. Adding an action to any existing button requires you taging a 
> tiddler containing the additional actions.
>
> The key is that any number of action tiddlers can be used on any button. 
> Any single action can be used on any nUmberto of buttons. 
>
> In the demo, a log action tiddler is tagged with all buttons custom action 
> tag. As a result every button is using the additional action.
>
> if a simlar solution is placed in the standard distribution, you do not 
> need to modify core tiddlers to add custom actions. just place a tag on 
> your custom actions. This allows multiple macros and plugins to use this 
> mechanisium without clash.
>
> Building your own buttons and other widgets with actions you can use the 
> same mechanism. Rather than hard code actions use the tag mechanisium.
>
> With tags you can add and remove them. You can have a run once by using an 
> action tiddler that removes its own tag. You could even have a chain of 
> such actions.
>
> Does that help?
>
> Tony
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Action on any button Proof of Concept

[TonyM]

Mat

The idea is it uses the one macro with a tag name to locate the actions to 
apply. Adding an action to any existing button requires you taging a tiddler 
containing the additional actions.

The key is that any number of action tiddlers can be used on any button. Any 
single action can be used on any nUmberto of buttons. 

In the demo, a log action tiddler is tagged with all buttons custom action tag. 
As a result every button is using the additional action.

if a simlar solution is placed in the standard distribution, you do not need to 
modify core tiddlers to add custom actions. just place a tag on your custom 
actions. This allows multiple macros and plugins to use this mechanisium 
without clash.

Building your own buttons and other widgets with actions you can use the same 
mechanism. Rather than hard code actions use the tag mechanisium.

With tags you can add and remove them. You can have a run once by using an 
action tiddler that removes its own tag. You could even have a chain of such 
actions.

Does that help?

Tony

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[tw5] Re: Action on any button Proof of Concept

[Mat]

So do I understand this right:

The idea is to be able to *remotely *add actions to buttons, including to 
already existing buttons, so that these actions are (also) performed when 
the button is clicked. And this is achieved by creating a new tiddler 
containing the extra actions and then tagging that "actiontiddler" with e.g 
"$:/tags/custom-action/edit", i.e a special tag with the prefix 
"$:/tags/custom-action/". 

...so to use this, one is to include this in ones buttons <>
...and your attachment has all core buttons modified to include this.

Do I understand this right so far?

I don't quite understand what the tags on the actiontiddlers is for, if the 
actiontiddlers are listed in the maro call anyway?

<:-)

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