Re: [tw5] Re: The penultimate words on saving - multi access and multi user

2019-11-25 Thread TonyM 
Folks,

This is a penultimate question in so far as it is not the last Question we 
need to answer *How do we enable saving tiddlywikis for **naive and casual 
users? in *The last word in Saving? 
 Ok 
perhaps it is not the perfect word but I do love it :) If multi-user was 
working we would guide *naive and casual users *to register and login in 
and that may be the end of the story in cases where tiddlywiki is published 
via a server. The penultimate question is for us to answer as designers and 
enthusiasts how can we deploy more sophisticated solutions.

Let us consider TT's Question

> But part of the issue is what is it [multi-user/Multi-access] for?


First I would like to acknowledge Jeds work as already delivering this as a 
solution, technically it is here.

Tiddlywiki's as personal repositories or for publishing readonly content is 
brilliant. People can even make it their own "fork" a published tiddlywiki 
but this is still quite limited when considered along side competing 
technologies such as cloud delivered multi-user applications, even the 
humble wordpress can have multiple simultaneous users with different access 
levels (built in) not dependent on the servers security model. 

As soon as you publish a wiki to an audience you may be interested in 
receiving feedback, allowing people to participate and add content. 
Publishing a wiki on your desktop at home or in an office on a lan for 
multiple-users to access for read only is trivial. As raised in The last 
word in Saving? 
 I am 
keen to enable a serial editing method on single file wikis to at least 
make Wikis editable in teams, if not constrained in the time domains, ie 
one editor at a time. If this were true with any single file wiki it would 
be very helpful. But it can be used on top of a server (If not somewhat 
irrelevant on Bob).

However most of can see the value of multi-access (So we do not break our 
own wikis in another tab/window or browser) or multi-user (simultaneously 
editors) and this is in my view the next functional step for designers, 
developer and enthusiasts. This is where Bob excels because it builds on 
the various tiddlywiki server options (Node) and provides the contention 
resolving layer. 

So I raised multi-user multi-access in its own thread to do the following;

   - Try and stop it distracting the discussion in The last word in Saving? 
    away 
   from single file wikis and users First encounter experience with users 
   making use of OR adopting tiddlywiki themself
   - Open a new discussion here so we can evaluate options and move forward 
   on this subject, which is subtly different from the question of using 
   server (node, TiddlyServer, Bob) or application implementation such as 
   (Apps, TiddlyDesktop ..)

As stated by me earlier is* Bob not already the answer?*

Yes, Bob probably is the answer to multi-access and multi user but the 
subject multi access and multi user need not be restricted to one solution. 
For example serial editing options on top of node will provide a 
constrained multi-user method so we should be open to discuss other methods 
of obtaining multi-access and multi-user.

Given the hard work has being done with Bob and now with Bob.exe (Ease of 
install) and the New Bob Saver Plugin (Which helps transition from single 
sile wikis to server based wikis) this thread also offers an opportunity to 
investigate and develop the workflows and ways to transition from single 
file wikis to robust multi-access and multi-user wikis. I would like us to 
find methods to document and ease this transition.

Once again I will call on the community to support Jed via his Patreon page 
because he deserves some compensation for his extensive work to bring these 
possibilities to TiddlyWiki. Please also consider others who make tireless 
contributions.

*I stand to learn more from the community but here is my "Working Vision".*

   - Using the bob saver plugin users can make tiddlywikis there own and 
   edit and save locally without Browser or Operating system barriers, 
   importantly using a platform based single executable install.
   - With Bob now installed they have access to a tiddlywiki server, 
   management and creation platform so they can enter the world of LAN 
   publishing, Multi-device access, multi access and multi user
   - That Bob and other options be explored further, then given the 
   additional support to give users of different experience levels to adopt 
   then turbocharge tiddlywiki.

Serious Questions that remain

   - How can we securely place a server and/or multi-access/multi-user 
   online?


Regards
Tony


On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 6:13:28 AM UTC+11, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> With Bob you can have one wiki open in multiple tabs with no

Re: [tw5] Re: The penultimate words on saving - multi access and multi user

2019-11-25 Thread Jed Carty 
With Bob you can have one wiki open in multiple tabs with no trouble. And it 
supports multiple editing at the same time, just not the same tiddler.

For security I made a secure server that has logins and fine grained access 
control. 

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Re: [tw5] Re: The penultimate words on saving - multi access and multi user

2019-11-25 Thread Arlen Beiler 
> I thought you already had had "*The last word in Saving?*" So I will take
your "*penultimate*" as evidence you have time travel :-)

You have made me seriously question my understanding of EVERY use of this
word I have ever seen!

Google: define penultimate.

last but one in a series of things; second last.

Arlen

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:17 PM ILYA  wrote:

> My two cents,
>
> > I think multiusers with simultaneous access IS interesting.
>
> I think there could be further breakdown of this "requirement". Because
> there will be completly different set of issues in each case:
>
> - one person (user) having the same wiki opened on multiple devices
> (clients). There will be edit conflicts because of distributed nature of
> this system.
> - multiple people (users) updating the same wiki. In addition to conflict
> management, there will be some work to ensure there is no security issues.
>
> Best regards,
> iilyak
>
> On 25 November 2019 09:05:40 GMT-08:00, TiddlyTweeter <
> tiddlytwee...@assays.tv> wrote:
>>
>> Ciao Tony
>>
>> I thought you already had had "*The last word in Saving?*" So I will
>> take your "*penultimate*" as evidence you have time travel :-)
>>
>> I think multiusers with simultaneous access IS interesting.
>>
>> Bob definitely is in the right direction. What I seen looks good.
>>
>> But part of the issue is what is it for?
>>
>> In my own case I like to chat. But I don't see TW anytime soon being able
>> to do more than post to Twitter & Telegram.
>> So the interaction you refer to is within a limited scope. What is it?
>>
>> And that is the point, I think. What are we trying to integrate? For what?
>>
>> What I'm trying to get to is part of the issue is about fundamentals of
>> tech & part (important part too) is why?
>>
>> I think we need to see more (including thought experiments) to understand
>> the issue well?
>>
>> Early thoughts
>> TT
>>
>> On Sunday, 24 November 2019 23:41:02 UTC+1, TonyM wrote:
>>>
>>> Folks. (edited)
>>>
>>> This thread in an intentional fork of the last word in saving thread. I
>>> am keen to keep the last word in saving focused on single file wikis and a
>>> simple path for even new users to make it their own. Invariably this bleeds
>>> into multi user and multi access implementation so please raise it here
>>> instead.
>>>
>>>
>>>- Multi access - more than one user updating a tiddlywiki at the
>>>same time
>>>- Multi user - more than one user updating a single wiki can be with
>>>serial editing or multi access
>>>
>>> *The only multi access solution I am aware of is Jeds wonderful bob
>>> server which addresses the contention when editing tiddlers. Please advise
>>> if other wise, perhaps noteself can when configured for cloudDB. *
>>>
>>>
>>> Please share your ideas, experience and more on multi access and multi
>>> user tiddlywiki such that we can develop new approaches and documentation
>>> or identify gaps we can address as a community.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Tony
>>>
>>>
>>> Post Script
>>>
>>> Using multi-access and Multi-user implementations of Tiddlywiki can also
>>> be extended to multi-device solutions. Such as you would like a tiddlywiki
>>> on your mobile and access it on your desktop. Such solutions can make use
>>> of a server based solution as needed with multi-access and multi-user (of
>>> the simultaneous type)  or single file based wikis stored on a cloud
>>> service such as Google Drive, Microsoft One Drive, Dropbox and more.
>>> Where possible please keep this thread focused on Node, server or folder
>>> based solutions and see the discussion  *the Last Word in Saving
>>> * for
>>> single file wikis.
>>>
>>>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
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> .
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: The penultimate words on saving - multi access and multi user

2019-11-25 Thread ILYA 
My two cents,

> I think multiusers with simultaneous access IS interesting.

I think there could be further breakdown of this "requirement". Because there 
will be completly different set of issues in each case:

- one person (user) having the same wiki opened on multiple devices (clients). 
There will be edit conflicts because of distributed nature of this system.
- multiple people (users) updating the same wiki. In addition to conflict 
management, there will be some work to ensure there is no security issues.

Best regards,
iilyak

On 25 November 2019 09:05:40 GMT-08:00, TiddlyTweeter  
wrote:
>Ciao Tony
>
>I thought you already had had "*The last word in Saving?*" So I will
>take 
>your "*penultimate*" as evidence you have time travel :-)
>
>I think multiusers with simultaneous access IS interesting.
>
>Bob definitely is in the right direction. What I seen looks good.
>
>But part of the issue is what is it for?
>
>In my own case I like to chat. But I don't see TW anytime soon being
>able 
>to do more than post to Twitter & Telegram.
>So the interaction you refer to is within a limited scope. What is it?
>
>And that is the point, I think. What are we trying to integrate? For
>what?
>
>What I'm trying to get to is part of the issue is about fundamentals of
>
>tech & part (important part too) is why?
>
>I think we need to see more (including thought experiments) to
>understand 
>the issue well?
>
>Early thoughts
>TT
>
>On Sunday, 24 November 2019 23:41:02 UTC+1, TonyM wrote:
>>
>> Folks. (edited)
>>
>> This thread in an intentional fork of the last word in saving thread.
>I am 
>> keen to keep the last word in saving focused on single file wikis and
>a 
>> simple path for even new users to make it their own. Invariably this
>bleeds 
>> into multi user and multi access implementation so please raise it
>here 
>> instead.
>>
>>
>>- Multi access - more than one user updating a tiddlywiki at the
>same 
>>time 
>>- Multi user - more than one user updating a single wiki can be
>with 
>>serial editing or multi access
>>
>> *The only multi access solution I am aware of is Jeds wonderful bob
>server 
>> which addresses the contention when editing tiddlers. Please advise
>if 
>> other wise, perhaps noteself can when configured for cloudDB. *
>>
>>
>> Please share your ideas, experience and more on multi access and
>multi 
>> user tiddlywiki such that we can develop new approaches and
>documentation 
>> or identify gaps we can address as a community.
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Tony
>>
>>
>> Post Script
>>
>> Using multi-access and Multi-user implementations of Tiddlywiki can
>also 
>> be extended to multi-device solutions. Such as you would like a
>tiddlywiki 
>> on your mobile and access it on your desktop. Such solutions can make
>use 
>> of a server based solution as needed with multi-access and multi-user
>(of 
>> the simultaneous type)  or single file based wikis stored on a cloud 
>> service such as Google Drive, Microsoft One Drive, Dropbox and more. 
>> Where possible please keep this thread focused on Node, server or
>folder 
>> based solutions and see the discussion  *the Last Word in Saving 
>>
>*
>for 
>> single file wikis.
>>
>>
>
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