[twdev] Re: [TWX] tiddler = filter
Hi Mat, TLDR, and correct me if I'm wrong, but could it be that all it takes is a conditional ViewTemplate and a filter field? All the rest remains as is. Ok, you may need a special template for your "filtered transclusion". No need for a different types of stories though or alternate link styles ...just "named filters" and you're set. http://nested.tiddlyspot.com best -tb -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWikiDev" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywikidev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywikidev@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywikidev. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywikidev/f658aa73-ddb8-4f0a-80ef-350ab6028671%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[twdev] Re: [TWX] tiddler = filter
Hmmm Sounds like new leafs on a fractal tree to me ;–) Of course I am able to see a point in it. With my listereveal plugin I built something that goes one step in that direction. Just with the difference that the subtiddlers are all closed by default. And of course the filter has to be defined in a hidden place, … “… the story river is of course visually chunked up in tiddlers.” – this on the other hand is just a matter of CSS as you know. So my first attempt would be to redesign the story and the tiddlers. I have seen solutions (by Jan) where you can save and load stories like documents. Great discussion anyway! Cheers, Thomas -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWikiDev" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywikidev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywikidev@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywikidev. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywikidev/de39b359-112c-4b1b-9863-c6da593de6f5%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[twdev] Re: [TWX] tiddler = filter
I like this idea and I agree with Jeremy, while this would represent a very different way of interacting with tiddlers in a wiki it doesn't require any changes so something very like this this could be made using tiddlywiki5. The implementation wouldn't be very different than how the calendar I made for the external brain experiment I did (http://ooktech.com/jed/externalbrain/#Calendar%20Archives), when you click on a date it creates a tiddler based on that date. We could implement almost everything you are talking about my changing the statement from 'a tiddler is a filter' to 'a tiddler has a filter', each tiddler then could have a filter field, if the filter field is empty the value defaults to the filter that just contains that tiddlers title. Then we just need a view template that, instead of displaying the text field of the current tiddler, displays the text fields of all of the tiddlers returned by the current tiddlers filter, and if one of those tiddlers has a filter replace the text field with the text fields of all the tiddlers in that tiddlers filter, and so on. There would be more to it of course, but the basic idea of 'each tiddler can be treated as a filter' can probably be implemented using current wikitext. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWikiDev" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywikidev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywikidev@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywikidev. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywikidev/7b004a9f-d87f-4aed-a1d1-1ec49a8469b4%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[twdev] Re: [TWX] tiddler = filter
On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 1:34:02 PM UTC-5, Mat wrote: > > I shouldn't engage in yet another topic without having cleared up other > discussions I'm involved in... > > ...but this little bit of serendipity is just too darn interesting to > resist sharing: > > Could a tiddler ID really be a filter? ...and the tiddler body display the > text from all those filtered tiddlers! > > This means a tiddler is either an encapsulated list-filter-transclusion of > other tiddlers or it is a "leaf" tiddler. > > Wow. I mean WOW! When I read that, paused, read it again (*he didn't REALLY say that, did he?*) I was truly gobsmacked. OF. COURSE. That's... that's... well, meta-dogfooding? It makes so much sense! > > The idea addresses both encapsulation and presentation. It expands the > concept of tiddlers but is still true to tiddler philosophy. > Actually, (apart from the obvious syntactic differences) it's more like LISP philosophy in many ways... > The resulting unit is exactly the smallest meaningful unit of information > - for the current situation! > You're using a loaded term there "situation" -- by which, I think you mean, "at the point at which a rendering needs to be made". Or did I misunderstand? > > This *filter string* is unique, i.e can serve as an ID. > > yep. > The simplest filter string would, just like now, constitute a tiddler > title. > > ok. > Complex tiddlers can be included in yet other complex tiddlers by means of > the tiddler title which merely serves as a label for the filter (more on > "labels" further down). > > Currently, presenting *narrative text *in TW is a rather manual process > involving either explicit authoring of transclusion commands or listwidgets > with such inside. Or to make some special viewtemplate do the listing. - > Or, view the *story river* to constitute the narrative, in which case you > deal with a rather ephemeral ephemeral narrative that the reader (not you) > controls (i.e closing of tiddlers). A the story river is of course visually > chunked up in tiddlers. > > *The OP here would still allow for all of this. It would be a superset to > it.* > > Yes. Got it. But in addition, you're *moving* some of the means to construct some of the parts into the title field (instead of always having to do that construction in the text field "somewhere"). Right? > If you want the minimal chunk of info, as we currently view a tiddler, > you've got it. But when 'the minimal' for your situation requires a complex > information, then it would be superior if TW "natively" can present this > '*situational > *minimal'. > > The tiddler title is run as a filter, it's run result is "passed on" -- repeat until only leaf node(s) remain. Right? > > Links > > In current TW, the general syntax for a link is of course > > [[label|tiddler title]] with special cases [[tiddler title]] or > TiddlerTitle > > > For the OP, imaginable general syntax forms might instead be: > > [[label|filter]] ...example [[students|tag[student]]] > > [label[filter]] ...example [students[tag[student]]] > > [label|filter] ...example [students|tag[student]] > > ...and I think the special cases without labels would be easy to fit into > these. > > So clicking such a link, opens *one tiddler showing the content from all > the filter output tiddlers*. If the filter yields no output then you get > the "missing tiddler" template. > I imagine that could get annoying if offered a missing tiddler for a complex, unwieldy filter. But it would at least follow the "standard" behavior, I guess. > But if there is *any *output tiddler, then this content is seen. > > Just like macros and templates work right now -- output does not reflect 1-1 with input. That's fine. > This display can be temporary, just like common generated lists. It makes > no difference for the viewer if the tiddler is stored or temporarily or > stored. This means links to not-yet-generated tiddlers should probably > appear like normal tiddlers unless, perhaps, the filter output is empty. > > Implementation detail. > > Tiddlers > > What is the title of a tiddler, once it is opened? - The label. > > And the filter string could be stored in the tiddler itself or maybe (for > faster systemic access?) in some global directory. > > Not sure about that. Could become slow(er). Certainly sounds bad for scaling. > When the tiddler is to be used inside some other filter, > i.e. when it is supplied as part of a rendering process... > the label is used and parsed(?) into the filter string it represents. > > This, still, means that labels - i.e tiddler titles - must be unique, and > they can be overwritten , just like today. > > yep > The simplest filter is an empty filer, i.e only a label. Just like today. > Well, actually, I see that as a filter that results in itself - i.e. [[mytitle]] > BTW, this would mean the tiddler is a "leaf tiddler" as it doesn't
[twdev] Re: [TWX] tiddler = filter
Ciao Mat, PMario & Jeremy I don't have skill to comment on the technical changes you suggest. I DO have, I think, competence enough to say a couple of things about *functional outcomes*, whether now or in a "TWX". I strongly believe that the "FRAGMENT MODEL" of TW--building wholes from small bits--whilst good--ALSO needs complementing with a clearer "WHOLES MODEL". Most ordinary uses think in terms of final objectives and, at the moment, it can be hard to get a clear sense of HOW you get bits to mesh into wholes. Anything that eases that would be a good outcome IMO. One that might also help increase the userbase. Mat put it like this: > make TW more *suitable* for narrative applications like creating > documents or "multi page things". Currently, TW is a kind of "digital > post-it note manager". The OP would widen TW to also be a kind of document > manager. > PMario like this: > - structured stories, > - export content eg: into 'stand alone' web sites and > - compose or re-compose 'stories' with a simple drag and drop mechanism." One quite large part of that same functional issue--making WHOLES--I found, slowly through experience, is how ID's function in TW. They work differently than in normal web pages being reserved for Tiddler Titles. It makes it much HARDER to generate longer web pages with built in navigation. Its also counter what most everything else is doing so newbies more used to the normal approach can struggle with it. Though to solve that I see that would needs be more a "TWX" innovation than a TW5 one? Best wishes Josiah -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWikiDev" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywikidev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywikidev@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywikidev. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywikidev/b2398f08-1c53-40ae-a68c-3cd8c6c994fa%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[twdev] Re: [TWX] tiddler = filter
@PMario I agree with your points even if your point about re-composing stories via DnD was not in my - but that would be a great addition!!! or a little bit more techy: "A proposal for: How can we abstract > complexity away from end users, to improve TiddlyWiki onboarding." > True. Many have pointed out the steep learning curve for TW. I think complexity can be hidden or at least postponed for newbies. (A main area for this, which is not in this OP, is more graphic oriented UI.) > That's what I see, if I ignore the "solution oriented" content (for > the moment.) > Yes, the "solutions" are mostly an attempt to clarify the concept. more to follow ;) > Looking forward to it! <:-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWikiDev" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywikidev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywikidev@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywikidev. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywikidev/9d548e90-5209-4da3-a90a-0708bcc460ee%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[twdev] Re: [TWX] tiddler = filter
Joshua - yeah, sorry, the whole post is about a concept for an imaginary future version of TW, therefore referred to as "TWX" in headline. I'm hoping to hear if it at all makes sense, why it would be a bad idea or a good idea, possible implications, etc. <:-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWikiDev" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywikidev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywikidev@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywikidev. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywikidev/d89e65d7-710a-48fc-9c93-43d7cfe83010%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[twdev] Re: [TWX] tiddler = filter
The filter would go in the text field, as you get a warning if you use
square or curly braces or the pipe-character in a title field.
"Warning: avoid using any of the characters | [ ] { } in tiddler titles."
On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 11:34:02 AM UTC-7, Mat wrote:
>
> I shouldn't engage in yet another topic without having cleared up other
> discussions I'm involved in...
>
> ...but this little bit of serendipity is just too darn interesting to
> resist sharing:
>
>
>
> Could a tiddler ID really be a filter? ...and the tiddler body display the
> text from all those filtered tiddlers!
>
> This means a tiddler is either an encapsulated list-filter-transclusion of
> other tiddlers or it is a "leaf" tiddler.
>
>
> The idea addresses both encapsulation and presentation. It expands the
> concept of tiddlers but is still true to tiddler philosophy. The resulting
> unit is exactly the smallest meaningful unit of information - for the
> current situation!
>
> This *filter string* is unique, i.e can serve as an ID.
>
> The simplest filter string would, just like now, constitute a tiddler
> title.
>
> Complex tiddlers can be included in yet other complex tiddlers by means of
> the tiddler title which merely serves as a label for the filter (more on
> "labels" further down).
>
> Currently, presenting *narrative text *in TW is a rather manual process
> involving either explicit authoring of transclusion commands or listwidgets
> with such inside. Or to make some special viewtemplate do the listing. -
> Or, view the *story river* to constitute the narrative, in which case you
> deal with a rather ephemeral ephemeral narrative that the reader (not you)
> controls (i.e closing of tiddlers). A the story river is of course visually
> chunked up in tiddlers.
>
> *The OP here would still allow for all of this. It would be a superset to
> it.*
>
> If you want the minimal chunk of info, as we currently view a tiddler,
> you've got it. But when 'the minimal' for your situation requires a complex
> information, then it would be superior if TW "natively" can present this
> '*situational
> *minimal'.
>
>
> Links
>
> In current TW, the general syntax for a link is of course
>
> [[label|tiddler title]] with special cases [[tiddler title]] or
> TiddlerTitle
>
>
> For the OP, imaginable general syntax forms might instead be:
>
> [[label|filter]] ...example [[students|tag[student]]]
>
> [label[filter]] ...example [students[tag[student]]]
>
> [label|filter] ...example [students|tag[student]]
>
> ...and I think the special cases without labels would be easy to fit into
> these.
>
> So clicking such a link, opens *one tiddler showing the content from all
> the filter output tiddlers*. If the filter yields no output then you get
> the "missing tiddler" template. But if there is *any *output tiddler,
> then this content is seen.
>
> This display can be temporary, just like common generated lists. It makes
> no difference for the viewer if the tiddler is stored or temporarily or
> stored. This means links to not-yet-generated tiddlers should probably
> appear like normal tiddlers unless, perhaps, the filter output is empty.
>
>
> Tiddlers
>
> What is the title of a tiddler, once it is opened? - The label.
>
> And the filter string could be stored in the tiddler itself or maybe (for
> faster systemic access?) in some global directory.
>
> When the tiddler is to be used inside some other filter, the label is used
> and parsed(?) into the filter string it represents.
>
> This, still, means that labels - i.e tiddler titles - must be unique, and
> they can be overwritten , just like today.
>
> The simplest filter is an empty filer, i.e only a label. Just like today.
> BTW, this would mean the tiddler is a "leaf tiddler" as it doesn't display
> any other tiddlers content.
>
> What is the content of a non-leaf tiddler, in edit mode? Well, the
> equivalent transclusion of the filtered tiddlers presented in edit mode.
> (I've actually dabbled with this in our current system using edittext
> widgets and it is really cool, but the idea here is to have it be native
> functionality.)
>
>
> This would
>
>- make TW more *suitable* for narrative applications like creating
>documents or "multi page things". Currently, TW is a kind of "digital
>post-it note manager". The OP would widen TW to also be a kind of document
>manager.
>- lower the threshold to use TW: An absolute noob can create a
>"document" by using the filter "part1 part2 part3" and three days later
>"[tag[doc]sort[]]", whereas <$list filter=... {{!!title}}..." is probably
>not noob stuff at all.
>- ...and, related, TW would be more usable as a static site generator
>- ...also related; extremely simple bundling and drag'n dropping of
>multiple tiddlers, i.e you just drag the tiddler... bundling won't even be
>a concept as it's automatic. And it doesn't even have to be an existing
>
