[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[PMario]

On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 10:01:42 AM UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Can you please clarify what you mean here!
>
> Do you mean that are TWO different Unicode glyphs for Underscore being 
> used?
>

The default behaviour, should do the exact same thing as the existing 
__underline__ does. ... But it can be customized, if users want. 
At the moment, there is a little problem, since custom-markup needs 
__some text__ ... I'll need to fix that. 
-m

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

PMario wrote:

Inline nesting seems to have a problem. 


Right. I noticed that. Hope its solvable!

Best wishes
TT 

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[PMario]

On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 1:44:27 AM UTC+1, TonyM wrote:


> This would allow redefinition of mark-up already in a text perhaps even 
> making it behave like another mark-up language.
> and additions like
> \customise glyph="-" _element="li"
>
> - to accept bullets pasted from GitHub
>
>
I was thinking about that too. BUT the github bullet points work in a 
different  way. eg:

 - 
- 

and so on. I think I'll create a new plugin for them.

-m


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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:
>
>
> *A line with〖 This inline 〗and more
>

The use of glyphs CLEARLY DIFFERENT from normal text is not just TT's issue!

It's important not to have any default glyphs that look like any common, 
conventional single glyph. ANY character that renders in font like "(  ... 
)" is particularly bad and should be avoided.

Looking at your suggestion, the Unicode glyphs from *Basic Multilingual 
Plane: CJK Symbols & Punctuation* look workable. ("CJK" means they are 
Chinese, Japanese & Korean glyphs).


【】〘〙〚〛〖〗

Their HTML entity numbers are ...



They have default font support on my Windows 10 tablet. But this is via 
"font substitution" using shipped Asian fonts.
None of the usual fonts European Language speakers would explicitly set in 
TW settings have any of them except Cambria Maths.
That is not a problem for us. I'm not sure if its a problem for some Asian 
TW users.

Best wishes
TT

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

PMario & TonyM

Can you please clarify what you mean here!

Do you mean that are TWO different Unicode glyphs for Underscore being used?

Best wishes
TT

On Saturday, 31 October 2020 09:14:29 UTC+1, PMario wrote:
>
> On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 1:36:14 AM UTC+1, TonyM wrote:
>
> Just for clarification the double underscore (not underscore) is used, 
>> does this not clash with its existing use?, or is this intentional?
>>
>
> As default, it will do the same thing. So it shouldn't be a problem. But I 
> need to fix it. Atm it isn't 100% the same.
>  
>
>>
>> It is available on most keyboards.
>>
>
> yes 
> -m
>

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

PMario wrote:
>
> @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> P.S.: By the way the Pilcrow was originally used inline (often coloured 
>> red) in Medieval manuscripts to indicate a ceasura / hiatus / pause in the 
>> flow of a text. 
>> Vellum / parchment was very expensive so text is as condensed as 
>> possible. Paragraphs separated by lines evolved much later and was more to 
>> do with the development of printing and cheaper paper.
>>
>
> Yea, I've seen that. I did find this:
>
> Scribes would often leave space before paragraphs to allow rubricators 
>>  to draw the pilcrow. With 
>> the introduction of the printing press, space before paragraphs was still 
>> left for rubricators to draw by hand; however, rubricators could not draw 
>> fast enough for printers and often would leave the beginnings of the 
>> paragraphs as blank. This is how the indent before paragraphs was created.
>> [11]  Nevertheless, 
>> the pilcrow remains in use in modern time in the following ways: 
>>
>
> very interesting. ... I did ask myself for some time, where the indented 
> first line in paragraphs comes from.  Now I know :)
>

TBH my background has helped me a lot in writing for the net. 
I see the content/structure issue totally differently than most people.

That is what happens when you are fluent in Middle English :-).

When you stand back and look at it---"blocks" in HTML/CSS have innovated 
brilliantly over print media. 
BUT "inline" HTML/CSS seems badly scared to *loosen the hold of print! *
Most websites read like newspaper columns.

We are barely using our available freedoms in writing for the net.

Sure this is part OT. But not totally. 
I have to test more, but I'm getting clearer your Custom Markup method will 
let me PLAY with writing forms viably in the way I want to really.

Best wishes
TT

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[PMario]

On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 1:36:14 AM UTC+1, TonyM wrote:

Just for clarification the double underscore (not underscore) is used, does 
> this not clash with its existing use?, or is this intentional?
>

As default, it will do the same thing. So it shouldn't be a problem. But I 
need to fix it. Atm it isn't 100% the same.
 

>
> It is available on most keyboards.
>

yes 
-m

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[PMario]

On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 11:05:06 AM UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

P.S.: By the way the Pilcrow was originally used inline (often coloured 
> red) in Medieval manuscripts to indicate a ceasura / hiatus / pause in the 
> flow of a text. 
> Vellum / parchment was very expensive so text is as condensed as possible. 
> Paragraphs separated by lines evolved much later and was more to do with 
> the development of printing and cheaper paper.
>

Yea, I've seen that. I did find this:

Scribes would often leave space before paragraphs to allow rubricators 
>  to draw the pilcrow. With the 
> introduction of the printing press, space before paragraphs was still left 
> for rubricators to draw by hand; however, rubricators could not draw fast 
> enough for printers and often would leave the beginnings of the paragraphs 
> as blank. This is how the indent before paragraphs was created.[11] 
>  Nevertheless, the 
> pilcrow remains in use in modern time in the following ways: 
>

very interesting. ... I did ask myself for some time, where the indented 
first line in paragraphs comes from.  Now I know :)

-m

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM

Minor footnote clarifying an issue that comes up often in understanding 
Unicode font implementations.

There is masses to understand about Unicode!

My post mentioned that ...

None of the usual fonts European Language speakers would explicitly set in 
> TW settings have any of them (the doubled brackets) except Cambria Maths.


Why?

Because Asian languages use the same style of brackets NOT for Maths in 
normal writing. SO the WELL DESIGNED MATHS FONT includes, helpfully, 
duplicate signs that are for direct *non-math use* by Asian writers.

Best wishes
TT

On Saturday, 31 October 2020 09:42:25 UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> *Markup Glyphs Should Be Visually Unique & Not Confused With Normal 
> Writing*
>
> TonyM wrote:
>>
>>
>> *A line with〖 This inline 〗and more
>>
>
> The use of glyphs CLEARLY DIFFERENT from normal text is *not just TT's 
> issue!*
>
> It's important not to have any default glyphs that look like any common, 
> conventional single glyph. ANY character that renders in font *like "(  
> ... )" is particularly bad *and should be avoided.
>
> Looking at your suggestion, the Unicode glyphs from *Basic Multilingual 
> Plane: CJK Symbols & Punctuation* look workable. ("CJK" means they are 
> Chinese, Japanese & Korean glyphs).
>
>
> 【】〘〙〚〛〖〗
>
> Their HTML entity numbers are ...
>
> 
>
> They have default font support on my Windows 10 tablet. But this is via 
> "font substitution" using shipped Asian fonts.
> None of the usual fonts European Language speakers would explicitly set in 
> TW settings have any of them except Cambria Maths.
> That is *not a problem *for us on Windows. I'm not sure if its a problem 
> for some Asian TW users. 
> ADDED: And I haven't confirmed if it works on Android yet.
>
> Best wishes
> TT
>
>

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:
>
> ¶
> I would not bother with the use of pilcrow unless it was part of an end of 
> line form of glyph only. 
>

Pilcrow has a complex history before printing, in printing & on the net. 
They all diverge & overlap.

Essentially the paragraph "mark" is a signal for a "longer pause" in 
thought in all incarnations.

I mention a bit of its history in some comments to PMario above.

Best wishes
TT

  

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[PMario]

On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 11:05:06 AM UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

The use case I am thinking of is allow me to simplyfy & share with others 
> an approach to correct manuscripts. 
> I work often using specialist software to proof edit articles & books for 
> publishers.
> This uses a specific method and its own system of glyphs (based on 
> "printers' corrections").
> The software involved is very complex and expensive.
> I believe there is a way I could do this work in TW using your Custom 
> Markup if I had a few special glyphs.
>
> I could explain it in detail if you wanted---but I don't want to overload 
> you more than we have already :-)
>

*It would be interesting to know*. .. Otherwise may implement changes, that 
work against your usecase, because I don't know it. .. Which probably has 
happend already as using the pilcrow as a "paragraph" marker. ... Which 
makes it impossible to be used as an inline marker. ... 

-mario



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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TonyM

Quick query. 

When you suggest glyphs can you please also give the Unicode NUMBER!

In that way we can check where they have a chance of working (being in 
fonts) across platforms & setups.

Best wishes
TT

On Saturday, 31 October 2020 02:03:36 UTC+1, TonyM wrote:
>
> Do note I found these alternate small braces that may be better.
> ﹙₍ ₎﹚
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
> On Saturday, 31 October 2020 12:01:43 UTC+11, TonyM wrote:
>>
>> Mario,
>>
>> I would be keen to see these additional inline glyphs made available. 
>> They look like a fusion of [ ] and ( )
>>
>> It would be ideal for mark-up that involves links or buttons and where 
>> the content is considered a title.
>>
>> *A line with〖 This inline 〗and more
>>
>>
>>- They also look good when no customisation plugin is in use but does 
>>communicate, if it were, this would be treated differently. 
>>- I would for example use it like [[ ]] but to trigger a button to 
>>create the tiddler from a template
>>- Or 〖task This inline 〗to create from the task template
>>- Its the more visible version TT is asking for.
>>
>> However I do want you to retain ﹙ little﹚ for the same reason TT does 
>> not want them, they are similar but different to ( ) and less visible. 
>>
>>- TT can just "*not use them"* if he does not like them (I say with 
>>all due respect).
>>
>>
>> Tony
>>
>

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario

It would be possible to use pilcrows as "start" and "end" of a paragraph, 
> but I don't understand why. 
> TW Pargraphs end with \n\n by default
> So the "reversed pilcrow" ⁋ <--- End String is redundant and for me 
> personally it is confusing, since Libre Office and Word use: ¶  as a 
> paragraph marker. ... It may be wrong, but it is shown at the *end* of a 
> paragraph. ... So the reverse pilcrow feels completely wrong at that 
> position.
>

The use case I am thinking of is allow me to simplyfy & share with others 
an approach to correct manuscripts. 
I work often using specialist software to proof edit articles & books for 
publishers.
This uses a specific method and its own system of glyphs (based on 
"printers' corrections").
The software involved is very complex and expensive.
I believe there is a way I could do this work in TW using your Custom 
Markup if I had a few special glyphs.

I could explain it in detail if you wanted---but I don't want to overload 
you more than we have already :-)

P.S.: By the way the Pilcrow was originally used inline (often coloured 
red) in Medieval manuscripts to indicate a ceasura / hiatus / pause in the 
flow of a text. 
Vellum / parchment was very expensive so text is as condensed as possible. 
Paragraphs separated by lines evolved much later and was more to do with 
the development of printing and cheaper paper.

Best wishes
TT

On Wednesday, 28 October 2020 15:53:12 UTC+1, PMario wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 1:50:44 PM UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> *Regarding User Possibility To Set Markup Glyphs?*
>>
>> TonyM wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> *Question - customised Glyphs, a glyph too far?*
>>>
>>>- As you can see the wide range of glyphs available that have 
>>>meaning or structure makes me wish to ask if we could allow the user to 
>>>nominate glyphs either single (line/para/blocks) or pairs for inline or 
>>>block. ie customise the customise glyphs.
>>>
>>>
>>  Ciao TonyM & PMario
>>
>> IF this were possible I WOULD use it.
>>
>
> ... need to think about it. But it would make configuration a hell lot 
> more complex.
>  
>
>> Why? Because the kinds of Markup I do would benefit from me being able to 
>> choose glyphs VISUALLY SUITED to the purpose.
>> For instance, for simple paragraphs ...
>>
>> ¶ Start of a paragraph,
>> more of the same pargraph endedon the next line.
>> ⁋ <--- End String
>>
>> I understand if its not possible. 
>>
>
> It would be possible to use pilcrows as "start" and "end" of a paragraph, 
> but I don't understand why. 
>
> TW Pargraphs end with \n\n by default
>
> So the "reversed pilcrow" ⁋ <--- End String is redundant and for me 
> personally it is confusing, since Libre Office and Word use: ¶  as a 
> paragraph marker. ... It may be wrong, but it is shown at the *end* of a 
> paragraph. ... So the reverse pilcrow feels completely wrong at that 
> position.
>
> *I could implement:*
>
> ¶ some text \n\n
>
> Since it would be the right thing to do. see: Wikipedia Pilcrow 
> . It would be easy to explain, 
> with the link to Wikipedia. It will create a HTML P tag by default.
>
> If you want you can define an _endString. ... Default would be \n\n
>
> -mario
>

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[PMario]

On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 9:19:43 AM UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> PMario wrote:
>
> Inline nesting seems to have a problem. 
>
>
> Right. I noticed that. Hope its solvable!
>

V0.8.1 should have fixed it. If not please report!
-m

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario
 

> @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> The use case I am thinking of is allow me to simplyfy & share with others 
>> an approach to correct manuscripts. 
>> I work often using specialist software to proof edit articles & books for 
>> publishers.
>> This uses a specific method and its own system of glyphs (based on 
>> "printers' corrections").
>> The software involved is very complex and expensive.
>> I believe there is a way I could do this work in TW using your Custom 
>> Markup if I had a few special glyphs.
>>
>> I could explain it in detail if you wanted---but I don't want to overload 
>> you more than we have already :-)
>>
>
>
PMario ... 

> *It would be interesting to know*. .. Otherwise may implement changes, 
> that work against your usecase, because I don't know it. .. Which probably 
> has happend already as using the pilcrow as a "paragraph" marker. ... Which 
> makes it impossible to be used as an inline marker. ... 
>

Okay. Good. 

*Actually your pilcrow example is FINE!*

My issue is its hard to explain if I can't code it to make examples, but I 
can't code examples it until its done enough to code them. 

It's a "chicken-and-egg" problem. 
So let's leave that aside for now?

Right now, I reviewed my thoughts on this and I suspect it  is very few 
"base block glyphs" I'd like to be able to set. 
They are ALL "block" elements. "Inline" I can foresee about a dozen ;-). 
But they can be handled well IF in inline we can do ELEMENTS as we do for 
blocks already.

Best wishes
TT

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 4)

[TonyM]

TT,

I did read your history, it's Quite interesting. And to some extent I defer 
to you, but in my return quote I pointed out the "modern" use of Pilcrow.

It is interesting to know where the indented 1st line of a paragraph comes 
from, something I have never liked the aesthetics of, to be honest. You may 
be interested in 
this https://unicode.org/L2/L2016/16235-two-medieval-chars.pdf

What I do hope is in the end we can accommodate different mark-up needs, 
and in fact that is the value of this project. That is one reason I 
speculated if it were possible to have an end of line only mark-up symbol, 
not only because that is the way I would be inclined to use pilcrows, but 
to support other end of line annotations. I believe this may already be 
achieved with inline mark-up placed at the end of line. One persons end of 
line is another's beginning of line anyway, for example I can imagine ﹙¶﹚.

I could see someone with the interest providing both the plugin and custom 
for anyone of these different systems. Not unlike they way a mathematician 
may extend tiddlywiki to their own mark-up language to represent complex 
maths, perhaps people may do this for old English, newspapers, PageMaker 
(One of the first professional printing applications and the use of 
postscript 
).
 
The key being people can make tiddlywiki their own, in new ways, through 
the value of mark-up. Or as an example people preparing medieval style 
texts or writing about them.

One example I am aware of is using custom mark-up to write HTML via 
shortcuts. Combined with tiddlywiki's automation I have always seen the 
potential for tiddlywiki to be configured to be a site designer and 
generator as well, this is where using html elements are helpful. One thing 
that excites me a lot is using an "arbitrary html tag" inside a custom 
mark-up. Basically it allows the writer to contain custom css and other 
"semantically appropriate" sections in the document. Add to this 
transclusion and macros an one could potentially generate a website by 
filling in some content settings and export (via zip) a whole multi-page 
site. Could this be a SquareSpace Wix killer? I have experimented with 
connecting to html and external javascript and there is a lot of potential 
there for more host interaction, I just do not have the skills yet.

Yet another thought of late, is in response to filters, logical operators 
and the fact that filters handle sets. It seems to me the introduction of 
annotation for basic set manipulations would also be helpful. See in the 
pre-release https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/#Filter%20Expression Equivalent 
named prefix

Regards
Tony


On Sunday, 1 November 2020 03:57:52 UTC+11, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> TonyM wrote:
>>
>> ¶
>> I would not bother with the use of pilcrow unless it was part of an end 
>> of line form of glyph only. 
>>
>
> Pilcrow has a complex history before printing, in printing & on the net. 
> They all diverge & overlap.
>
> Essentially the paragraph "mark" is a signal for a "longer pause" in 
> thought in all incarnations.
>
> I mention a bit of its history in some comments to PMario above.
>
> Best wishes
> TT
>
>   
>

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