Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
One of the advantages of top posting - you can reply to the message and ignore the rubbish at the bottom Did you forget the smiley? :) If the bottom is rubbish, why send it? Ignoring it only works if everybody knows that the convention is to only top-post and not insert anything in the middle. Otherwise you have to scan to make sure there aren't any gems buried in there. Trimming everything that's not needed for context and inserting your comments at the right place makes much more sense to me. Also, blindly top posting sure doesn't help the signal/noise ratio. I'm on one list full of quote-everything top posers. It often has long threads. Each layer picks up another signature, sometimes a corporate disclaimer, and the list's unsubscribe/info block. I get it in digest mode. Sometimes it's a challenge to find the signal. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lassen IQ receiver
As far as alternating, you'll get the various NMEA strings in the order you choose (and the strings you choose) once a second. You won't get one, then the other, then back to the first. It'll be several all at once, and that block will repeat once a second. I suppose you could select just the two you want, but they'd come in on the same data burst, repeating once a second. first string second string 1 second pause first string second string 1 second pause etc. I don't know for sure if you can have port 1 setup with a particular set of NMEA data strings and port 2 setup with a different set. Assuming you can't do that (meaning they have to be the same NMEA data), you can probably have both ports spit out everything you'd need and ignore what you don't need in software. -Bob On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:12 AM, Morris Odell [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Thanks for the reply Bob! Does this mean it's not possible to get two alternating NMEA messages from the same port? I have all the Trimble (IQ_chat and IQ_monitor) utilities and use port 1 to communicate with a PC using TSIP. I have port 2 connected to a microcontroller and I want to get both strings alternating with each other so I can translate them into a different serial code for a particular application. Alternatively the TAIP message TM has all the info I need in one sentence, but I can't seem to make it appear :-( It's definitely an IQ not a SQ. Thanks, Morris From: Robert Darlington [EMAIL PROTECTED] I use them for non-time keeping things. You need to use the configuration tool to configure the ports so that they both spit out NMEA, and the particular NMEA strings you want to see, and then save the configuration. Otherwise you get NMEA out of one port and the Trimble binary format out of the other. Do you have a copy of the software? You can find it here: http://www.trimble.com/embeddedsystems/lasseniq.aspx?dtID=support Also, make sure you have the IQ and not the SQ. The SQ only has one port but is otherwise pin compatible. On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:36 PM, Morris Odell [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Hi all, I'm using a Trimble Lassen IQ receiver for a Shera style GPSDO. That part works OK but I would also like to get serial data from the receiver's output port #2. The receiver seems to respond to commands sent to port #1 but the desired outputs don't seem to appear. Specifically I want to get two NMEA messages, GGA and ZDA, or alternatively the TAIP TM timing message. No matter how I instruct the receiver I don't see two NMEA messages, just the first one on the list I've sent to the receiver. The TAIP doen't seem to work at all. Am I missing something here? Has anyone had any success with this device? Thanks, Morris Looking more closely at the software list, I don't see the utility that I use. Whatever it is, it's a DOS based thing or is at least a shell ap with just text. I'll dig up the zip file at work when I'm in the office over the weekend and get it over to you if I still have it. I've used it successfully to configure both ports to dump NMEA with varying output strings. -Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lassen IQ receiver
Robert Darlington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I use them for non-time keeping things. You need to use the configuration tool to configure the ports so that they both spit out NMEA, and the particular NMEA strings you want to see, and then save the configuration. Otherwise you get NMEA out of one port and the Trimble binary format out of the other. Do you have a copy of the software? You can find it here: http://www.trimble.com/embeddedsystems/lasseniq.aspx?dtID=support Also, make sure you have the IQ and not the SQ. The SQ only has one port but is otherwise pin compatible. Robert, These units look interesting. Do you mind if I ask some questions? 1. What kind of non-time keeping uses have you found for them? 2. How well do they work indoors? Do you have to be near a window? What about inside a multi-story building? 3. How well do they handle constellation changes? Is there an abrupt shift in position? 4. Have you ever taken the shield off and looked inside? If so, can you see the crystal oscillator and tell whether it is a bare crystal or a complete oscillator module? 5. How much do they cost? Do you know of any others that are cheaper? Thanks for your help! Best Regards, Mike Monett ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
The smiley (humour) was implied.. I didn't mean any offence, but have been used to top posting, as business email (that's what I originally got my email for originally back in the mid 90's) was all (and still is) top posted. It was only when I ventured into newsgroups that I came across bottom posting, which to me seemed totally illogical. I've read the pros of bottom posting (and the cons of top posting), but still can't get my head or my email prog (Outlook), around it. Cheers Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: 11 October 2008 07:20 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator One of the advantages of top posting - you can reply to the message and ignore the rubbish at the bottom Did you forget the smiley? :) If the bottom is rubbish, why send it? Ignoring it only works if everybody knows that the convention is to only top-post and not insert anything in the middle. Otherwise you have to scan to make sure there aren't any gems buried in there. Trimming everything that's not needed for context and inserting your comments at the right place makes much more sense to me. Also, blindly top posting sure doesn't help the signal/noise ratio. I'm on one list full of quote-everything top posers. It often has long threads. Each layer picks up another signature, sometimes a corporate disclaimer, and the list's unsubscribe/info block. I get it in digest mode. Sometimes it's a challenge to find the signal. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PLOTTER EZGPIB
Don, basically my understanding is that every application communicates with the GPIB hardware itself (may it be a plug in card, a usb interface or a network based device) not DIRECT but by means of drivers % dlls. The sense of it all is to make the application more or less independend from the used GPIB hardware. I have a feedback that a script that I have written here and used with a NI GPIB pci card run without any changes on a different system with a NI USB GPIB adapter. So there is hope the same holds true for network GPIB adapter. Perhaps it is you to make the proof? Regarding VISA: What is built into EZGPIB is the very basic VISA stuff but NOT an complete implementation. If you do already have VISA based applications check them out whether the used commands are available in EZGPIB. My suggestion is that you just give it a try. With a basic understanding about how to talk with the devices connected to the bus it should be a matter of minutes to perform some tests. Best regards Ulrich -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Don @ True-Cal Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Oktober 2008 22:03 An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] PLOTTER EZGPIB Ulrich, I have been wanting to try your EZGPIB to control and capture data from various instruments I run in my lab. My GPIB bus typically has 3-6 instruments connected and I currently use the NI GPIB-ENET/100 as a LAN bridge to any one of several windows based computers. Ocassionally, I also use the NI GPIB-USB-A connected to a single instrument. In either case, I use the NI drivers and NI-488.2 ver 2.1 on WinXP. My control applications to date have been limited to Agilent VEE Pro along with the Agilent IO library suite. Can you comment on any known problems or issues I might encounter using EZGPIB with the above hardware or VISA API configuration/s. The instruments I may have on the bus are: SR620 HP 53181A HP 5372A HP 3457A HP 8903B Keithley 2002 Thanks... Don - Original Message From: Ulrich Bangert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Time nuts time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 3:11:19 AM Subject: [time-nuts] PLOTTER EZGPIB Gentlemen, new versions of PLOTTER and EZGPIB are available. Some bugs concerning the search for Prologix serial network controllers have been removed and the possibility has been included to log the messages from the debug window into a file. PLOTTER now can compute the mean and the SD of a series only on the part of the series that is displayed, i.e. you can zoom in to parts of the series and compute mean SD for the displayed part only. Enjoy Ulrich Bangert www.ulrich-bangert.de Ortholzer Weg 1 27243 Gross Ippener ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
Rob Kimberley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The smiley (humour) was implied. I didn't mean any offence, but have been used to top posting, as business email (that's what I originally got my email for originally back in the mid 90's) was all (and still is) top posted. It was only when I ventured into newsgroups that I came across bottom posting, which to me seemed totally illogical. I've read the pros of bottom posting (and the cons of top posting), but still can't get my head or my email prog (Outlook), around it. Cheers Rob Kimberley There is a very big difference between a business email and a forum. A business email is usually between two people and concerns only one subject. The exchange is usually very short, perhaps a single question and a single reply. In these situations, top posting is probably the easiest method. A forum is completely different. There may be many people involved, but unless they respond to a post, you never know if they are present. The discussion can involve several different issues, each with their own thread. New threads can appear and take over the entire conversation, or quickly disappear. A discussion can continue for a very long time and involve many people. In this situation, top posting is very inconsiderate. You have already heard all the reasons. If your email client is to blame, perhaps it should be replaced with one more suitable. Pimmy is an excellent client, and you can still get version 3.5, the last free one here: http://www.321download.com/LastFreeware/page28.html Pimmy is designed to handle an unlimited number of mailboxes and accounts. You can get disposable email addresses from a number of sites. I have found KasMail is the best: http://www.kasmail.com/ KasMail is free and allows you to have up to 25 different email addresses. You can use different ones for eBay, PayPal, and each of your bank accounts. This helps increase security, since you never use these for anything else. This reduces the opportunity for ID theft. You can use some for typical web sites that won't allow you to proceed without an email address. However, these can often be stolen and end up on a spammer's list. Once there, it is impossible to remove them. You are now vulnerable to all kinds of malware hidden in html messages. These use GIF's, JPEG's, PDf, IFRAMES, scripts, Visual Basic, and other methods to hijack your system. Once in, the criminals can do anything they want. They can steal your bank account and credit card usernames and passwords, and drain your accounts. They can turn your computer into a zombie, sending spam to other victims. You can end up with numerous malware programs all fighting for control. This can slow down your computer and cause serious crashes. The answer is to simply dispose of the bad email address and get a new one. Following this simple rule, I have virtually eliminated all spam. I now may get one spam every month or two. This is a huge improvement from the hundreds or thousands I used to get. One more thing. Most email clients will execute programs hidden in email, or downloaded from a web site. Pimmy will not execute programs. It won't even render html. It won't download anything from external sites. So there is no way you can be infected by incoming malware hidden in an email message. And, of course, Pimmy will let you bottom post:) Best Regards, Mike Monett ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] COMPLETELY off topic - but I know you'll read it anyway.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jim Palfreyman writes: Do I run each 8 ohm speaker on its own 500W channel? or Do I run in bridged mode and put the two speakers in parallel onto the 1000W amplifier? Unless the two speakers are _very_ identical, including length and type of cabling from the amplifier, I will recommend against running them in parallel. As former sound technician I will also say this: run them on separate channels, if you loose one channel, you don't loose your sound entirely. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
Mike Monett wrote: Steve Rooke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or you can use Linux and not worry about any of this :) And I personally think that Rob has been unfairly taken to task over a comment about the verbiage added to emails sent from some corporate systems which add huge disclaimers to the bottom of each message. I took his reply as a friendly jibe to my previous light-hearted comment on this. 73 Steve Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD Omnium finis imminet Steve, I'm in the process of switching over to Ubuntu, and I already checked - Wine handles Pimmy. Does linux have an email client that handles multiple accounts? Of course! If you like an all-in-one browser/email, try seamonkey. If you want just mail/news, try thunderbird. Or pine, or gmail, or kmail, or citadel... BTW, my reason for switching will probably affect more people in a couple of years. I am running Win98, and recently bought two new Asus motherboards. They no longer have drivers for Win98, but they do have drivers for Ubuntu and several other distros. Linux has drivers for just about everything. You don't have to go to the manufacturers for the driver very often. A better reason to change to linux is for reliability. A nice bonus is the wide variety of high quality free software that is available. I have been using linux exclusively for about 12 years now. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] COMPLETELY off topic - but I know you'll read it anyway.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 7:24 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] COMPLETELY off topic - but I know you'll read it anyway. Jim Palfreyman wrote: OK I have an interesting but simple problem that has nothing to do with time. But I'm sure someone on this list will know. And besides I can't be stuffed finding another list with such a good S/N ratio. In my spare time I play in a band. I have a 1000W amplifier that can be either two 500W stereo channels or a single 1000W mono running in bridged mode. (Basically one channel amplifies the upper part of the sine curve and the other the lower.) Thats not an accurate description of how bridged amplifiers work. The load is connected between the 2 outputs which are 180 degrees out of phase. This doubles the available voltage swing across the load. For a given load, this quadruples the power (provided neither of the amplifiers goes into current limit). The amp can drive speakers down to 4 ohms. 4 ohms in bridged mode? Or 4 ohms in single ended mode? I have two 8 ohm speakers. The source is mono. Do I run each 8 ohm speaker on its own 500W channel? or Do I run in bridged mode and put the two speakers in parallel onto the 1000W amplifier? Any takers? Regards, Jim Bruce Jim, Since your amplifier is specified at 1000W bridged and 2x500W non bridged, that seems to indicate that the amp would be current limited (otherwise you could get 200W in bridged mode), so in bridged mode, you are expected to use speakers with 2ximpedance specified for non-bridged operation. You say the amplifier can drive speakers down to 4 ohms, but is that the impedance where it can deliver 500W non-bridged? If so, you will need 8 ohm impedance to get 1000W bridged. You can't get there with two 8 ohm speakers, unless you use a transformer. Since the power is likely to be the same if you bridge the amplifier and put the speakers in series, or drive each speaker with it's own channel, I would recommend the second (each speaker on it's own output, non bridged operation) as it will probably have lower distortion. Didier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] COMPLETELY off topic - but I know you'll read it anyway.
If 500W are specified for a 4 ohm load, you will only obtain 250W for each channel over a 8 ohm speaker. In bridged mode, it is not true that basically one channel drives the upper part of the sine and the other the lower: they operate in push-pull, supplying each side of the speaker with opposite phases so you will obtain the double peak-to-peak voltage value over the load than in the single ended configuration. Double voltage would mean four-times power, so the amplifier surely is not rated for the same load in bridged mode than in single-ended two-channel mode. If minimum load for each channel is 4 ohm in single-ended mode, usually it is 8 ohm for two channels in bridged mode. So if you have 8 ohm speakers... use it in single ended mode (better reliability also, as Poul-Henning pointed), and you will get 250W per channel. In brigde mode, you could only put the two speakers in parallel if the amplifier is rated for 4 ohm loads in bridged mode. Regards, Javier Jim Palfreyman escribió: OK I have an interesting but simple problem that has nothing to do with time. But I'm sure someone on this list will know. And besides I can't be stuffed finding another list with such a good S/N ratio. In my spare time I play in a band. I have a 1000W amplifier that can be either two 500W stereo channels or a single 1000W mono running in bridged mode. (Basically one channel amplifies the upper part of the sine curve and the other the lower.) The amp can drive speakers down to 4 ohms. I have two 8 ohm speakers. The source is mono. Do I run each 8 ohm speaker on its own 500W channel? or Do I run in bridged mode and put the two speakers in parallel onto the 1000W amplifier? Any takers? Regards, Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Javier HerreroEMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806 Los Charcones, 17AFAX: +34 949 336 792 19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] COMPLETELY off topic - but I know you'll read it anyway.
Thanks folks for your quick replies. I've dug out the manual and even though the specifications say it can do 4 ohms in bridged mode, there is another statement that says it doesn't recommend it. Here is what it says about bridged mode: The A channel handles the positive voltage and the B channel becomes the negative, thus doubling the output voltage swing. Needless to say, Poul's comment regarding running them as two separate channels because if one fails I'll have another as a spare is the clincher for me. Being from an IT background - backup is all important. Thanks folks! 2008/10/11 Javier Herrero [EMAIL PROTECTED] If 500W are specified for a 4 ohm load, you will only obtain 250W for each channel over a 8 ohm speaker. In bridged mode, it is not true that basically one channel drives the upper part of the sine and the other the lower: they operate in push-pull, supplying each side of the speaker with opposite phases so you will obtain the double peak-to-peak voltage value over the load than in the single ended configuration. Double voltage would mean four-times power, so the amplifier surely is not rated for the same load in bridged mode than in single-ended two-channel mode. If minimum load for each channel is 4 ohm in single-ended mode, usually it is 8 ohm for two channels in bridged mode. So if you have 8 ohm speakers... use it in single ended mode (better reliability also, as Poul-Henning pointed), and you will get 250W per channel. In brigde mode, you could only put the two speakers in parallel if the amplifier is rated for 4 ohm loads in bridged mode. Regards, Javier Jim Palfreyman escribió: OK I have an interesting but simple problem that has nothing to do with time. But I'm sure someone on this list will know. And besides I can't be stuffed finding another list with such a good S/N ratio. In my spare time I play in a band. I have a 1000W amplifier that can be either two 500W stereo channels or a single 1000W mono running in bridged mode. (Basically one channel amplifies the upper part of the sine curve and the other the lower.) The amp can drive speakers down to 4 ohms. I have two 8 ohm speakers. The source is mono. Do I run each 8 ohm speaker on its own 500W channel? or Do I run in bridged mode and put the two speakers in parallel onto the 1000W amplifier? Any takers? Regards, Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Javier HerreroEMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806 Los Charcones, 17AFAX: +34 949 336 792 19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
Mike Monett wrote: There is a very big difference between a business email and a forum. A business email is usually between two people and concerns only one subject. The exchange is usually very short, perhaps a single question and a single reply. In these situations, top posting is probably the easiest method. A forum is completely different. snip In this situation, top posting is very inconsiderate. You have already heard all the reasons. Best Regards, Mike Monett Mike, Just for your pleasure I am posting at the bottom. H did I get that right ? While there is an issue with TOP/BOTTOM posting styles, I think the original comment was referring to all the CRAP people include after they sign at the bottom of their post. Some have [presumably] a cute little saying, others are totally paranoid, and the original post had so much crap that, besides wasting space, I did not bother to read it. People or companies' use that space to post a form of denial or an apology. Today, with such a litigious world, maybe it has some value. Just think, you do not see the U.S. Post Office putting such verbiage on the mail we give them to carry around. The only stuff that makes sense after you sign off would be a phone number or snail mail address, or perhaps a web site URL. One or two short lines, after that it is going to far. That my view and I am sticking to it ! As for the TOP/BOTTOM thing, I find it hard to read an email from the bottom up to properly follow the action, especially with the extraneous stuff. However, it is a pain, at times, to go the other way too. I really hate it when people make a reply with no reference to what they were referring to. You know, a blank email with just a comment like Yes I agree. I get those and the subject line gives no clue either. The real answer is people are getting sloppy and forgetting how to properly write, whether it is a formal letter or an informal note. An Email is a letter ! All the do - dad shorts for smiling and such (none of which I have learned) allow people to forget how to describe, more accurately with words, their ideas and feelings. BillWB6BNQ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
It never ceases to amaze me that this group is by far the highest S/N ratio group that I belong to, populated by a vast majority of people who are widely smarter than I am, and yet it seems many of these people can't figure a thread because it may have mixed top-post and bottom-post and whatnot. Get over it, you won't fix it. Personally, I respect everyone's opinion, but I have given up in trying to have the world see things my way, so I try to remain flexible. It's good for the brain anyhow. When I read mail on my Blackberry, it is EXTREMELY aggravating to have to scroll to the bottom of even a short thread to see the response, so that's one case where top posting is WIDELY preferred, and when I read mail on my Blackberry, I think bottom posters are VERY inconsiderate to me. And no, your favorite email client/operating system probably won't run on the Blackberry. And no, I won't switch to a PDA that runs Linux so you can bottom post without aggravating me, and no, don't lecture me about the virtues of Linux, I run 6 Linux machines at the moment (those that actually have work to do), even though my desktop runs XP Pro. On the other hand, my friend Bruce always bottom posts, and since his contributions are so valuable, I try to keep his threads in order and I make an effort to bottom post on his messages. Other than that, I do what I feel like is most appropriate. On messages that are unlikely to add long term value to the archive, like this one, I usually top post. Then you don't have to scroll all the way down before hitting Delete. Didier -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 5:26 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator This group seems pretty flexible about -- top -- mid -- or bottom -- posting. Don't see any reason to lecture this group about how they might want to communicate. I never paid attention about how it was being done, but it all seems to work here. I never can remember having any thought about bad form. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
2008/10/11 Mike Monett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Rob Kimberley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The smiley (humour) was implied. I didn't mean any offence, but have been used to top posting, as business email (that's what I originally got my email for originally back in the mid 90's) was all (and still is) top posted. It was only when I ventured into newsgroups that I came across bottom posting, which to me seemed totally illogical. I've read the pros of bottom posting (and the cons of top posting), but still can't get my head or my email prog (Outlook), around it. Cheers Rob Kimberley There is a very big difference between a business email and a forum. A business email is usually between two people and concerns only one subject. The exchange is usually very short, perhaps a single question and a single reply. In these situations, top posting is probably the easiest method. A forum is completely different. There may be many people involved, but unless they respond to a post, you never know if they are present. The discussion can involve several different issues, each with their own thread. New threads can appear and take over the entire conversation, or quickly disappear. A discussion can continue for a very long time and involve many people. In this situation, top posting is very inconsiderate. You have already heard all the reasons. If your email client is to blame, perhaps it should be replaced with one more suitable. Pimmy is an excellent client, and you can still get version 3.5, the last free one here: http://www.321download.com/LastFreeware/page28.html Pimmy is designed to handle an unlimited number of mailboxes and accounts. You can get disposable email addresses from a number of sites. I have found KasMail is the best: http://www.kasmail.com/ KasMail is free and allows you to have up to 25 different email addresses. You can use different ones for eBay, PayPal, and each of your bank accounts. This helps increase security, since you never use these for anything else. This reduces the opportunity for ID theft. You can use some for typical web sites that won't allow you to proceed without an email address. However, these can often be stolen and end up on a spammer's list. Once there, it is impossible to remove them. You are now vulnerable to all kinds of malware hidden in html messages. These use GIF's, JPEG's, PDf, IFRAMES, scripts, Visual Basic, and other methods to hijack your system. Once in, the criminals can do anything they want. They can steal your bank account and credit card usernames and passwords, and drain your accounts. They can turn your computer into a zombie, sending spam to other victims. You can end up with numerous malware programs all fighting for control. This can slow down your computer and cause serious crashes. The answer is to simply dispose of the bad email address and get a new one. Following this simple rule, I have virtually eliminated all spam. I now may get one spam every month or two. This is a huge improvement from the hundreds or thousands I used to get. One more thing. Most email clients will execute programs hidden in email, or downloaded from a web site. Pimmy will not execute programs. It won't even render html. It won't download anything from external sites. So there is no way you can be infected by incoming malware hidden in an email message. And, of course, Pimmy will let you bottom post:) Best Regards, Mike Monett ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Or you can use Linux and not worry about any of this :) And I personally think that Rob has been unfairly taken to task over a comment about the verbiage added to emails sent from some corporate systems which add huge disclaimers to the bottom of each message. I took his reply as a friendly jibe to my previous light-hearted comment on this. 73 Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] COMPLETELY off topic - but I know you'll read it anyway.
Jim Palfreyman wrote: OK I have an interesting but simple problem that has nothing to do with time. But I'm sure someone on this list will know. And besides I can't be stuffed finding another list with such a good S/N ratio. In my spare time I play in a band. I have a 1000W amplifier that can be either two 500W stereo channels or a single 1000W mono running in bridged mode. (Basically one channel amplifies the upper part of the sine curve and the other the lower.) Thats not an accurate description of how bridged amplifiers work. The load is connected between the 2 outputs which are 180 degrees out of phase. This doubles the available voltage swing across the load. For a given load, this quadruples the power (provided neither of the amplifiers goes into current limit). The amp can drive speakers down to 4 ohms. 4 ohms in bridged mode? Or 4 ohms in single ended mode? I have two 8 ohm speakers. The source is mono. Do I run each 8 ohm speaker on its own 500W channel? or Do I run in bridged mode and put the two speakers in parallel onto the 1000W amplifier? Any takers? Regards, Jim Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lassen IQ receiver
Hi Mike, The Lassen IQ is a little PCB mounted 12 channel receiver about half the size of a matchbox, which is intended for OEM applications. It's not easy to open to see what's inside. It uses tiny surface mount connectors to get signals in and out but there's no access to the oscillator if you want to use an external osc. It doesn't have a built in antenna so the performance depends on the external antenna connected to it. It seems to handle constellation changes quite well as far as I can see. The application info says it can be used for navigation as well as timekeeping. It has 2 serial ports as well as a 1 pps output. One serial port is used to control and read it using Trimble's TSIP binary protocol. There is free DOS and Windows software available from Trimble to do this. The other port can be configured to use TSIP, NMEA or Trimble's own ASCII protocol called TAIP. I paid AU$70 about 2 years ago, which at the time was equivalent to about US$60. You could probably do better these days. I bought a bunch of old 6 channel VP Oncore receivers about a year ago on ebay for AU12 each. They are ideal for timing aplications and clocks. HTH, Morris These units look interesting. Do you mind if I ask some questions? 1. What kind of non-time keeping uses have you found for them? 2. How well do they work indoors? Do you have to be near a window? What about inside a multi-story building? 3. How well do they handle constellation changes? Is there an abrupt shift in position? 4. Have you ever taken the shield off and looked inside? If so, can you see the crystal oscillator and tell whether it is a bare crystal or a complete oscillator module? 5. How much do they cost? Do you know of any others that are cheaper? Thanks for your help! Best Regards, Mike Monett ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
This group seems pretty flexible about -- top -- mid -- or bottom -- posting. Don't see any reason to lecture this group about how they might want to communicate. I never paid attention about how it was being done, but it all seems to work here. I never can remember having any thought about bad form. Mike Monett wrote: There is a very big difference between a business email and a forum. ... Wow, that was a long message. Imagine how far we would have to scroll if I hadn't deleted it. -- And if I felt obligated to take the effort to bottom post my reply. Best Regards, Mike Monett So there are points of view about posting. Feel free to continue to contribute, but I never saw a lecture about netiquette here before, and don't see the need. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
Steve Rooke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or you can use Linux and not worry about any of this :) And I personally think that Rob has been unfairly taken to task over a comment about the verbiage added to emails sent from some corporate systems which add huge disclaimers to the bottom of each message. I took his reply as a friendly jibe to my previous light-hearted comment on this. 73 Steve Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD Omnium finis imminet Steve, I'm in the process of switching over to Ubuntu, and I already checked - Wine handles Pimmy. Does linux have an email client that handles multiple accounts? BTW, my reason for switching will probably affect more people in a couple of years. I am running Win98, and recently bought two new Asus motherboards. They no longer have drivers for Win98, but they do have drivers for Ubuntu and several other distros. WinXP will expire soon, and VISTA is a disaster. There is no guarantee the next release will be any better. And you will eventually need a new motherboard or two, so the handwriting is on the wall. Best Regards, Mike Monett ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lassen IQ receiver
Thanks again Bob, Yes, that's what I thought it would do, but It doesn't seem to be so. My micro is programmed to identify the beginning of an NMEA string by the $ character and there's only one per sec. Maybe the second string is concatenated onto the first one without the dollar symbol. Having said all that, in the time between my original post and this one I managed to get the TAIP output working and the micro to recognise it so I'm a happy man :-) Morris Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:29:07 -0600 From: Robert Darlington [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lassen IQ receiver As far as alternating, you'll get the various NMEA strings in the order you choose (and the strings you choose) once a second. You won't get one, then the other, then back to the first. It'll be several all at once, and that block will repeat once a second. I suppose you could select just the two you want, but they'd come in on the same data burst, repeating once a second. first string second string 1 second pause first string second string 1 second pause etc. I don't know for sure if you can have port 1 setup with a particular set of NMEA data strings and port 2 setup with a different set. Assuming you can't do that (meaning they have to be the same NMEA data), you can probably have both ports spit out everything you'd need and ignore what you don't need in software. -Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] COMPLETELY off topic - but I know you'll read it anyway.
OK I have an interesting but simple problem that has nothing to do with time. But I'm sure someone on this list will know. And besides I can't be stuffed finding another list with such a good S/N ratio. In my spare time I play in a band. I have a 1000W amplifier that can be either two 500W stereo channels or a single 1000W mono running in bridged mode. (Basically one channel amplifies the upper part of the sine curve and the other the lower.) The amp can drive speakers down to 4 ohms. I have two 8 ohm speakers. The source is mono. Do I run each 8 ohm speaker on its own 500W channel? or Do I run in bridged mode and put the two speakers in parallel onto the 1000W amplifier? Any takers? Regards, Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] BC637PCI
In a message dated 11/10/2008 05:12:11 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has anyone upgraded the oscillator on an older Datum BC637PCI card to the MTI crystal? Is it as simple as changing the crystal and adjusting the osc gain? - Hi Scott I've not changed the oscillator, but I did look into the possibility and also ran a BC637PCI for a while with an external Vectron ovened 10MHz oscillator. I assume you have the BC637PCI manual? Appendix A refers to field upgrades, both converting a 635 to 637 by adding the GPS module and upgrading to the ovened oscillator. In both instances a firmware upgrade was activated by entering a device specific password provided by Datum/Symmetricom. I doubt that option is still longer available even though the necessary firmware changes are obviously already there waiting to be activated. I suspect, in the case of the oscillator upgrade anyway, some default settings including oscillator gain will be all that's changed. When running with an external oscillator I found that loss of power would default any settings I had changed so no doubt that's what would happen if you upgraded the oscillator without the firmware change. Page 6-15, in the rev K manual anyway, gives details of the oscillator gain adjustment, I found approx 70 seemed reasonable with my Vectron oscillator but my BC637PCI, and perhaps others, has some conditioning issues anyway. The basic onboard oscillator was not very good, apologies for such an imprecise statement but I can't find the fairly extensive notes made several months ago, both accuracy and stability were relatively poor measured on an HP53132A using a known good Thunderbolt as a reference. In particular I noticed quite frequent, but seemingly random, jumps in output frequency that would then take a little while to recover, a bit like a fast acting automatic gain control with slow recovery time. These jumps were significantly greater than the normal variations I observed and fell outside of the unit specification. Using the Vectron oscillator greatly improved things, it was a much better oscillator anyway and I was able to observe the significant improvement in the Vectron performance when being conditioned by the BC637PCI. However, the frequency jumps still occured albeit with overall performance much improved and frequency stability much better and the jumps less than before, ie frequency jumps were seemingly reduced in proportion to the better accuracy. Without the jumps I would have been happy with the Vectron performance but didn't feel able to trust the combination without permanent computer monitoring, and still don't know if this was a function of my BC637PCI or something common to all of them. It was interesting to play with, and I'll probably go back to it at some time, but I was more concerned then to set up something I could rely on and eventually put it to one side. Whilst working with the BC637PCI I did find that I needed both the BC635PCI and BC637PCI software, both offer options the other lacks, and I have late copies of both if you need them. I also have two manuals, version H from Datum that includes schematics, and the fairly similar version K from Symmetricom but without schematics. regards Nigel GM8PZR ** ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] mailing list policies (formerly Sulzer Labs D-5 osc)
humour) was implied. I didn't mean any offence, but have been used to top posting, as business email A forum is completely different. Pimmy will not execute programs. and follow the instructions there. Or you can use Linux Does linux have an email client that handles multiple accounts? WinXP will expire soon An Email is a letter ! Interesting isn't it for the subject of Sulzer Labs D-5 Oscillator? Overall I have found many straight and interesting conversation here, few times I felt a little bored, e.g. by wrong subject entry, but overall looks like a matter of working self-teaching. So there are points of view about posting. Feel free to continue to contribute, but I never saw a lecture about netiquette here before, and don't see the need. I agree and I see this due to the difference between this mailing list and a news-group. Looking forward to the future of this time-nuts mailing list. best regards, Frank EOF ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] BC637PCI
In a message dated 11/10/2008 05:12:11 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has anyone upgraded the oscillator on an older Datum BC637PCI card to the MTI crystal? Is it as simple as changing the crystal and adjusting the osc gain? - PS Should have added to my previous waffle, I think the answer to this is yes:-) given the need to reset any changed values every time you power down and up again. regards Nigel GM8PZR ** ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Time - an essential ingredient
Didier, Well said! Your comment about giving up in trying reminds me of an epiphany I had recently. As a young, extremely intelligent and opinionated man, I once believed that the world was populated with stupid versions of me. It took me many years to conclude that other people's opinions might actually have some value to me, and many more years to allow that their opinions didn't have to have value to me in order to be respected. In my case, I think it was mostly a matter of time spent in this fascinating world that drew me (or grew me) to the conclusion that diversity of opinion is one of the things that _makes_ this a fascinating world (albeit, often contentious.) Regarding the OS religious wars: as an old boss once said (I think regarding CP/M vs MSDOS): Operating System, Schmoperating System - can it run PASCAL? Mark W8XR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Rob Kimberley [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: It was only when I ventured into newsgroups that I came across bottom posting, which to me seemed totally illogical. I've read the pros of bottom posting (and the cons of top posting), but still can't get my head or my email prog (Outlook), around it. I have recommended http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ and heard good things about it. Fixes quotes, signature placement, etc. -- Sanjeev Gupta +65 98551208 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lassen IQ receiver
Hi Morris, The $ character should come before every NMEA sentence, and there should be several of these in each data burst. You probably can configure these modules to only have one, and that might be what you're seeing. Out of the box the Lassen IQ spits out about 10 lines every second, each beginning with the $ like this: $GPGGA,184050.84,3907.3839,N,12102.4772,W,1,05,1.8,00543,M*33 $GPRMC,184050.84,A,3907.3839,N,12102.4772,W,00.0,000.0,080301,15,E*54 $GPGSA,A,3,24,07,09,26,0503.6,01.8,03.1*05 $PMGNST,02.12,3,T,534,05.0,+03327,00*40 $GPGLL,3907.3839,N,12102.4771,W,184051.812,A*2D $GPGGA,184051.81,3907.3839,N,12102.4771,W,1,05,1.8,00543,M*34 $GPRMC,184051.81,A,3907.3839,N,12102.4771,W,00.0,000.0,080301,15,E*53 $GPGSA,A,3,24,07,09,26,0503.6,01.8,03.1*05 $GPGSV,3,1,08,07,57,045,43,09,48,303,48,04,44,144,,02,39,092,*7F $GPGSV,3,2,08,24,18,178,44,26,17,230,41,05,13,292,43,08,01,147,*75 $GPGSV,3,3,08*71 $GPGLL,3907.3840,N,12102.4770,W,184052.812,A*21 This was spit out of a Magellan GPS and found randomly on the net here: http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/nmea.htm Hook up your gps and watch it with Hyperterm or your terminal program of choice. It should fire up and start spitting this stuff out. Can I ask what you're doing with it? Just curious. -Bob On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 5:51 AM, Morris Odell [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Thanks again Bob, Yes, that's what I thought it would do, but It doesn't seem to be so. My micro is programmed to identify the beginning of an NMEA string by the $ character and there's only one per sec. Maybe the second string is concatenated onto the first one without the dollar symbol. Having said all that, in the time between my original post and this one I managed to get the TAIP output working and the micro to recognise it so I'm a happy man :-) Morris Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:29:07 -0600 From: Robert Darlington [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lassen IQ receiver As far as alternating, you'll get the various NMEA strings in the order you choose (and the strings you choose) once a second. You won't get one, then the other, then back to the first. It'll be several all at once, and that block will repeat once a second. I suppose you could select just the two you want, but they'd come in on the same data burst, repeating once a second. first string second string 1 second pause first string second string 1 second pause etc. I don't know for sure if you can have port 1 setup with a particular set of NMEA data strings and port 2 setup with a different set. Assuming you can't do that (meaning they have to be the same NMEA data), you can probably have both ports spit out everything you'd need and ignore what you don't need in software. -Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] BC637PCI
Nigel, thanks for the detailed response. I noticed the password option in the advanced menu as well. I ran it overnight locked to a 1-PPS feed and it seemed to stay witin +-200ns. Not spectacular, but within spec according to the older datasheets. I am mainly interested in the card as a timecode generator. However it looks like it might be more convenient to just feed the card an external 10mhz and not use the internal oscillator. Also, the RTC battery is toast, so it looks like I'll be replacing that at some point. Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 11/10/2008 05:12:11 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has anyone upgraded the oscillator on an older Datum BC637PCI card to the MTI crystal? Is it as simple as changing the crystal and adjusting the osc gain? - PS Should have added to my previous waffle, I think the answer to this is yes:-) given the need to reset any changed values every time you power down and up again. regards Nigel GM8PZR ** ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Rob Kimberley [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: It was only when I ventured into newsgroups that I came across bottom posting, which to me seemed totally illogical. I've read the pros of bottom posting (and the cons of top posting), but still can't get my head or my email prog (Outlook), around it. I have recommended http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ and heard good things about it. Fixes quotes, signature placement, etc. Sanjeev, OK, I just installed it, let me try this It's amazing, it looks as if Outlook was smartified! Did not know it was possible! Did not even have to read any doc or go into any setup!!! (well,maybe I should, it looks like it eats the last poster's signature...) Well, I hope nobody is using Blackberrys on this list from now on! Thanks, Didier KO4BB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Sound and time
At 12:16 PM + 10/11/08, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: As former sound technician... I used to do that stuff too, being the bass player/sound guy in a cheesy bar band. Loads of fun! Any more time nuts with sound reinforcement experience? -- --David Forbes, Tucson, AZ http://www.cathodecorner.com/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
Didier Juges wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Rob Kimberley [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: It was only when I ventured into newsgroups that I came across bottom posting, which to me seemed totally illogical. I've read the pros of bottom posting (and the cons of top posting), but still can't get my head or my email prog (Outlook), around it. I have recommended http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ and heard good things about it. Fixes quotes, signature placement, etc. Sanjeev, OK, I just installed it, let me try this It's amazing, it looks as if Outlook was smartified! Did not know it was possible! Did not even have to read any doc or go into any setup!!! (well,maybe I should, it looks like it eats the last poster's signature...) Well, I hope nobody is using Blackberrys on this list from now on! Thanks, Didier KO4BB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Just installed Quotefix in my Outlook 2003, and thought I'd try it out. Amazing! :-) Rob Kimberley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
Sanjeev Gupta wrote: On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Rob Kimberley [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: It was only when I ventured into newsgroups that I came across bottom posting, which to me seemed totally illogical. I've read the pros of bottom posting (and the cons of top posting), but still can't get my head or my email prog (Outlook), around it. I have recommended http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ and heard good things about it. Fixes quotes, signature placement, etc. Sanjeev, Thank you for sending this - it works beatifully. Rob Kimberley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sound and time
David Forbes escribió: At 12:16 PM + 10/11/08, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: As former sound technician... I used to do that stuff too, being the bass player/sound guy in a cheesy bar band. Loads of fun! Any more time nuts with sound reinforcement experience? Not in the same way... I spent some time long ago working as service technician repairing professional sound equipment :) Regards, Javier -- Javier HerreroEMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806 Los Charcones, 17AFAX: +34 949 336 792 19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
Paul, Did you get what you needed? If the schematic at: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/sul25-1/sul25bcl.gif isn't clear enough, let me know. I have a full set of Sulzer 2.5 and 5 manuals here somewhere. /tvb I need a bit of help getting an old Sulzer D-5 5MHz oscillator to work. It was built into a rack module with monitoring facilities and had been slightly 'got-at' by the previous owner. Some of the connections were pencilled on the case but not enough to give confidence about powering it up. Has anybody got any information on this 'classic' design? Pin connection data would be a great help, anything more would be wonderful!! Thanks in advance, Paul Reeves,G8GJA Does it look like either of these? http://leapsecond.com/museum/sul25-1/ http://leapsecond.com/museum/sul25-2/ /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What is the best counter for a Time Nuts?
Mike, Mike Monett wrote: The Allen deviation is used to describe the performance of a stable clock. Measuring the performance of a good clock requires a counter with resolution down to picosecond levels. As Dr Griffith points out, some modern counters may have internal signal processing that makes them unsuitable for this task. Hold on! What modern counters do is to use various means to improve on frequency and period measures. This makes the frequency and period measures unsuitable for futher processing as well as evaluation of expected performance when doing measures for Allan Deviation. However, what we do is usually not that measure, we to Time Interval measures for individual trigger points. When doing those measures these smoothing methods cannot be utilized. Then you are running on the bare-bone hardware performance with only the normal (traditional) translation skews. I specifically cautioned Ulrich from making Allan Deviation performance estimate from the frequency performence for this reason. The smoothing will make such rule-of-thumb comparisions much harder. Another thread discussed using a mixer to generate the difference frequency between two oscillators, then measuring the stability of the resulting beat note: http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-July/019006.html The basic principle is sound. If the oscillators were running at 10MHz, and the frequency difference was 1 Hz, then the beat note would be 1 Hz. This represents one part in 10 million, or 1e-7 of the original frequency. If the beat note is measured with 1 microsecond resolution, the overall resolution is 1e-7 / 1e-6 = 1e-13. This is beyond the capability of most commercial counters. The difficulty with this approach is the output of a mixer is at a fairly low level, perhaps 50 millivolts or so. The frequency would also be very low, perhaps 1 Hz. This means the counter would have to trigger accurately on a very slow-rising, low amplitude signal. This is not the actual problem. The actual problem is the slew rate of the signal. Even if the amplitude was several volts peak-to-peak the slew rate of the beat note is the main problem as the wideband noise of at the output added with the wideband noise of the counter input causes a random additive voltage modulation which can pre/post trigger around the ideal position with a RMS value of t_jitter = N_total / SR (this is a traditional trigger jitter formula). The gain stages / slew rate amplifiers that Bruce and I have discussed contributes a significant gain which significantly goes beyond what a can come out of a mixer. Signal is clipped and filtered in order to improve signal to noise properties such that a minimal of noise is amplified while the slew rate is raised significantly. This is a very difficult measurement problem. The accuracy will be degraded by noise, such as the 60Hz AC line frequency and its harmonics, switching noise from the pc power supplies and monitors, radiation from nearby fluorescent lighting, plus thermal noise from the mixer and input stage of the amplifiers. Not too hard really. The thing which makes it complex is that good signal to noise is needed both at the carrier frequency and beat frequency. Some knowledge of suitable measures should give adequate measures. This low-level noise is very difficult to eliminate, especially when coax cables are needed to transfer the desired signal from one place to another. The result is the measurement system is not as good as it could be. Is it? Fighting ground loops to handle H fields is no big magic. Using mixers which ports is galvanically isolated helps. E fields is easier to handle at lower frequencies. For the output port, the difference frequency needs the signal to noise properties. Traditional diffrential signal handling deals with both E and H field issues to such a level that other sources will dominate. It should also be pointed out that carefull adjustment of both input port levels and the loading on the output port will have impact on performance as recorded in literature. There is a solution to this problem. Another kind of mixer called a digital mixer is ideally suited for this application. It uses a d-flop, with one signal going to the clock pin, and one going to the D input. The resulting signal on the Q' output is the frequency difference between the two signals. The output signal is a full logic level swing, perhaps 5 Volts, with a risetime of a couple of nanoseconds. This is an ideal signal to pass on a terminated coax cable to the counter. The schematic and waveforms are shown in the attached GIF. You will not solve the requirements for good dynamics. The digital input is highly non-linear and thus behaves like a mixer so due care is still needed, both at the
[time-nuts] Any ex-Cylink or PCom folks out there?
Any ex-Cylink or Pcom folks out there? -Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What is the best counter for a Time Nuts?
Mike Monett wrote: The Allen deviation is used to describe the performance of a stable clock. Measuring the performance of a good clock requires a counter with resolution down to picosecond levels. As Dr Griffith points out, some modern counters may have internal signal processing that makes them unsuitable for this task. Another thread discussed using a mixer to generate the difference frequency between two oscillators, then measuring the stability of the resulting beat note: http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-July/019006.html The basic principle is sound. If the oscillators were running at 10MHz, and the frequency difference was 1 Hz, then the beat note would be 1 Hz. This represents one part in 10 million, or 1e-7 of the original frequency. If the beat note is measured with 1 microsecond resolution, the overall resolution is 1e-7 / 1e-6 = 1e-13. This is beyond the capability of most commercial counters. The difficulty with this approach is the output of a mixer is at a fairly low level, perhaps 50 millivolts or so. The frequency would also be very low, perhaps 1 Hz. This means the counter would have to trigger accurately on a very slow-rising, low amplitude signal. Not true, if both the RF and IF ports are saturated as usually recommended for phase detector operation, the output can be as high as 2V pp (e.g. Minicircuits RPD-1). The solution to the triggering problem with low slew rate input signals is simple, build a slope amplifier. A slope amplifier (in optimised form) consists of a set of cascaded limiting amplifiers with gradually increasing gain and bandwidth. Oliver Collins showed how to optimise the gain and bandwidth distribution to minimise the output noise. I have since generalised his results to include the case where the input (self) noise for all amplifiers are not identical. For further details/references see: http://www.ko4bb.com/~bruce/ZeroCrossingDetectors.html http://www.ko4bb.com/%7Ebruce/ZeroCrossingDetectors.html I have some spreadsheets for calculating the amplifier parameters both for the the restricted and general cases. This is a very difficult measurement problem. The accuracy will be degraded by noise, such as the 60Hz AC line frequency and its harmonics, switching noise from the pc power supplies and monitors, radiation from nearby fluorescent lighting, plus thermal noise from the mixer and input stage of the amplifiers. This low-level noise is very difficult to eliminate, especially when coax cables are needed to transfer the desired signal from one place to another. The result is the measurement system is not as good as it could be. Not if you use the built in mixer RF transformers to eliminate low frequency ground lops at the mixer input and use optical isolation for the output of the zero crossing detector comparator. In other words a PCB using surface or through hole mount mixers is far better than using a packaged mixer with a common low frequency ground for all inputs and outputs. It also pays to use a capacitive IF port termination for low beat frequencies (100kHz) as this reduces the noise significantly. There is a solution to this problem. Another kind of mixer called a digital mixer is ideally suited for this application. It uses a d-flop, with one signal going to the clock pin, and one going to the D input. The resulting signal on the Q' output is the frequency difference between the two signals. And this isnt affected by low frequency ground loops? The output signal is a full logic level swing, perhaps 5 Volts, with a risetime of a couple of nanoseconds. This is an ideal signal to pass on a terminated coax cable to the counter. The schematic and waveforms are shown in the attached GIF. The output of the first d-flop is passed to a second d-flop to eliminate glitches due to metastability in the first stage. This can occur when the signal on the D input is exactly on the switching threshold when the clock transition occurs. The resulting glitch can severely disrupt the following logic stages. In practice, it might be difficult to offset two stable oscillators by 1 Hz. In this case, the frequencies can be multiplied to some higher value. For example, the frequencies could be multiplied by a factor of 10 to 100MHz, and offset by 1 Hz. There may be some jitter in the leading edge of the beat note since the d-flop may or may not catch the transition as it crosses the threshold on the D input. Instead of the standard +/- 1 clock ambiguity in digital circuits, the output could be several clocks late. However, if the counter had a resolution of 100 nanoseconds (10MHz clock), the extra delay is much less than the counter resolution and should have no effect.
[time-nuts] Sound and time
Does a 7 megawatt seismic generator count? Basically the world's largest sub woofer... At 12:16 PM + 10/11/08, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: As former sound technician... I used to do that stuff too, being the bass player/sound guy in a cheesy bar band. Loads of fun! Any more time nuts with sound reinforcement experience? -- --David Forbes, Tucson, AZ http://www.cathodecorner.com/ _ See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
Mike, I'm in the process of switching over to Ubuntu, and I already checked - Wine handles Pimmy. Whilst Wine is a very useful utility, I would only use it if there is an absolute need to run a Windows application whith no equivalent. If you are switching to Linux, you really would be advised look for equivalent applications to the Windows ones. There are a real wealth of them now an you are frequently spoilt by the varieties of the same time of application. Although Wine will run a lot of Windows applications, your experience will not be ideal, I can guarantee it. There are bound to be 'issues' which will annoy you and I expect you will only end up concluding that Linux is a load of rubbish as it is not as good at running your Windows application as the real thing. Does linux have an email client that handles multiple accounts? Well, the obvious one is Thunderbird which will do all the things that I can see that Pimmy can do, given my albeit brief overview of this application from the parent website. Obviously, if you are going down the Ubuntu path, there is Evolution which I think will fit the bill for you and is the default email client for the Gnome desktop system. Personally I use a KDE desktop which I consider is considerably more powerful than Gnome and, coincidently, is a much closer style of a desktop to the Windows experience. You can, of course, select KDE when you install Ubuntu or go for a KDE orientated version called Kbuntu. I know that everyone raves about Ubuntu but I've personally been with SuSE for many years, and now with OpenSUSE, and I find it a very polished distribution. It's just a case of what your preferences are. BTW, my reason for switching will probably affect more people in a couple of years. I am running Win98, and recently bought two new Asus motherboards. They no longer have drivers for Win98, but they do have drivers for Ubuntu and several other distros. Well, Linux will run on most hardware these days as there are drivers for many things, especially older hardware. The type of desktop can be tailored to the performance capabilities of the hardware that it is running on and you can almost run it on anything down to a wet lump of string. I run OpenSUSE on a high end motherboard with quad core CPU, high end graphics card and all the bells and whistles. WinXP will expire soon, and VISTA is a disaster. There is no guarantee the next release will be any better. And you will eventually need a new motherboard or two, so the handwriting is on the wall. The good thing about Linux is that you can still run an up to date version with good performance on quite mediocre hardware and new versions don't generally drop support for older hardware. You generally won't have to go out and buy a new printer, scanner, graphics card, etc. when a new release comes out. But, unless your a UNIX man, it's going to be a a steep learning curve and it's all too easy to give up and throw it in the too hard bin. Just persevere and think the Linux way. Eventually it will be like those comfortable old slippers and you will enjoy the power and flexibility you have in your hands. 73 Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sound and time
Now *that* sounds like a lot of fun! Many years ago I was in Beaverton, OR (yeah, TEK land), and there was this disco called Earthquake Ethel's. I guess they had a pretty fancy sound system the feature every evening at around 9 pm (don't remember the real time)... they had an earthquake. I leave the description to your imagination! Also, a lot of years ago (including high school and college), my thing was to do lights and sound for theater. Daun -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Sims Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 5:57 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Sound and time Does a 7 megawatt seismic generator count? Basically the world's largest sub woofer... At 12:16 PM + 10/11/08, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: As former sound technician... I used to do that stuff too, being the bass player/sound guy in a cheesy bar band. Loads of fun! Any more time nuts with sound reinforcement experience? -- --David Forbes, Tucson, AZ http://www.cathodecorner.com/ _ See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sound and time
Hi: In the late 1950's early 1960's FM stereo did not yet exist. The method used was to use a receiver that could tune AM or FM but allowed receiving both at the same time. So a station in S.F., maybe K101 got frequency assignments so that with one dial pointer position you were tuned to one of their stations on FM and the other on AM. Later they used the new FM stereo broadcast system One of their sounds was an earthquake and I think it was the one with the warning to not turn up the volume too high, because you may blow your speakers. That may have been the source for Earthquake Ethel's? James Gabbard (spelling? was the host) Have Fun, Brooke Clarke, N6GCE http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam Daun Yeagley wrote: Now *that* sounds like a lot of fun! Many years ago I was in Beaverton, OR (yeah, TEK land), and there was this disco called Earthquake Ethel's. I guess they had a pretty fancy sound system the feature every evening at around 9 pm (don't remember the real time)... they had an earthquake. I leave the description to your imagination! Also, a lot of years ago (including high school and college), my thing was to do lights and sound for theater. Daun -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Sims Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 5:57 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Sound and time Does a 7 megawatt seismic generator count? Basically the world's largest sub woofer... At 12:16 PM + 10/11/08, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: As former sound technician... I used to do that stuff too, being the bass player/sound guy in a cheesy bar band. Loads of fun! Any more time nuts with sound reinforcement experience? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sound and time
I used to be the roadie for The Fourth Dynasty, a hard rock band back in the 1960's. Built a neat box that the drummer could use to flash various colored floods with his foot. Built an ultraviolet strobe light (this is in the 60's). I even played an audio oscillator on certain tunes. We had so many high-powered amps that it's a miracle that I can still hear. At the Music Dome (an old geodesic) we shook the dust out of the building. The bass player and I used to grab a Hammond B3 organ and put it up on the stage. The B3 wasn't a home organ, but a truly huge, heavy beast. Coupled with the Leslie speaker, it was an awesome sound. I wonder where our Fender Telecasters are today. The bass player used to build custom 15 inch speakers; he was super at leatherette. It was neat watching the blue glow on the 6L6s. The only time we lost a battle of the bands was at one school where they gave it to the hometown band. The crowd wasn't happy and the contact guy was apologetic, but we wound up playing for free that night. There were some nice places, and some real sleazy ones; a couple that almost needed the chicken wire. We made a couple of 45s, but never got famous. It was interesting learning about human personalities by observing the band members and the crowd. Mike - AA8K David Forbes wrote: At 12:16 PM + 10/11/08, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: As former sound technician... I used to do that stuff too, being the bass player/sound guy in a cheesy bar band. Loads of fun! Any more time nuts with sound reinforcement experience? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sound and time
David Forbes wrote: At 12:16 PM + 10/11/08, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: As former sound technician... I used to do that stuff too, being the bass player/sound guy in a cheesy bar band. Loads of fun! Any more time nuts with sound reinforcement experience? Sure thing. One of my first jobs was to work on PA systems. I did the home work by trimming up active cross overs and associated limiters, measuring them and also hunt down hum and noise to get the dynamics way up. Catastroph limiters ensured we didn't burn the speakers and we could do 139 db SPL at 1 m in the mid range and 136 dB SPL at the top. We never used less than 4 a side. The amps could burn the elements without clipping, and the catastroph limiters ensured we never did that. What really kills your ears is amps clipping. Lots of nice overtones crashing out of the speaker. As for dynamics, if you where in a silent room you had to crash your head to the speaker to hear a very very faint noise while the system was at full power capable of burning your ears out if there was a signal. I did pseudo-anecoic impulse responce measurements for the sum of speaker responses as a standard thing. I was also involved in line speakers as they appeared on the market. This was very early out. They changed the PA market for the better. I still have a complete hearing. I can't even recall having tinitus after a concert or work. Ever. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] COMPLETELY off topic - but I know you'll read itanyway.
Jim, Ahh audio, my first love and almost 50-years of experience. You already have replies with the right answers but here is my 2-cents.. I've dug out the manual and even though the specifications say it can do 4 ohms in bridged mode, there is another statement that says it doesn't recommend it. The recommendation is due to current limiting in the amplifier. The amplifier output impedance is doubled from the typical 4-ohm per channel to 8-ohm when bridged. If you loaded the bridged output with 4-ohm (both 8-ohm speakers in parallel), it would require double the current through each output stage in addition to 2x the draw from the power supply. Current limiting, probably in the power supply, would result at a much lower peak voltage from each channel. The result is less power (earlier clipping/distortion) with this lower than design point load. The A channel handles the positive voltage and the B channel becomes the negative, thus doubling the output voltage swing. This is a very odd way to state what's happening in the bridged mode. You gatta love manuals written by the marketing department. Not totally wrong but only accurate during complex instances in time when the positive half of the output is indeed handled by ch-A and the negative by ch-B. In another instance however, this will be reversed. A more accurate description is what someone else has already stated as a push-pull arrangement of the out-of-phase driven channels. The bridge mode switch couples one of the input channels to both output stages but also inserts an additional op-amp stage (phase inverter) in only one of the channels. Now as the input signal goes positive, the hot terminal of ch-A will be driven positive while the hot terminal of ch-B will be driven negative equally. All this reverses as the input signal goes negative. The clincher for you to NOT operate in bridge mode is that you have TWO speakers of the correct impedance to match each channel separately. Just drive both input channels with a Y adapter from your mono source and you will have the best arrangement. If there is ever a time that you want to only drive one of the 8-ohm speakers, now you would want to bridge the amp and connect the one speaker accordingly. Regards... Don - Original Message - From: Jim Palfreyman To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] COMPLETELY off topic - but I know you'll read itanyway. Thanks folks for your quick replies. I've dug out the manual and even though the specifications say it can do 4 ohms in bridged mode, there is another statement that says it doesn't recommend it. Here is what it says about bridged mode: The A channel handles the positive voltage and the B channel becomes the negative, thus doubling the output voltage swing. Needless to say, Poul's comment regarding running them as two separate channels because if one fails I'll have another as a spare is the clincher for me. Being from an IT background - backup is all important. Thanks folks! 2008/10/11 Javier Herrero [EMAIL PROTECTED] If 500W are specified for a 4 ohm load, you will only obtain 250W for each channel over a 8 ohm speaker. In bridged mode, it is not true that basically one channel drives the upper part of the sine and the other the lower: they operate in push-pull, supplying each side of the speaker with opposite phases so you will obtain the double peak-to-peak voltage value over the load than in the single ended configuration. Double voltage would mean four-times power, so the amplifier surely is not rated for the same load in bridged mode than in single-ended two-channel mode. If minimum load for each channel is 4 ohm in single-ended mode, usually it is 8 ohm for two channels in bridged mode. So if you have 8 ohm speakers... use it in single ended mode (better reliability also, as Poul-Henning pointed), and you will get 250W per channel. In brigde mode, you could only put the two speakers in parallel if the amplifier is rated for 4 ohm loads in bridged mode. Regards, Javier Jim Palfreyman escribió: OK I have an interesting but simple problem that has nothing to do with time. But I'm sure someone on this list will know. And besides I can't be stuffed finding another list with such a good S/N ratio. In my spare time I play in a band. I have a 1000W amplifier that can be either two 500W stereo channels or a single 1000W mono running in bridged mode. (Basically one channel amplifies the upper part of the sine curve and the other the lower.) The amp can drive speakers down to 4 ohms. I have two 8 ohm speakers. The source is mono. Do I run each 8 ohm speaker on its own 500W channel? or Do I run in bridged mode and put the two
Re: [time-nuts] What is the best counter for a Time Nuts?
Two corrections: The denominators in the following equations have the wrong polarity in the exponent: the overall resolution is 1e-7 / 1e-6 = 1e-13. This should read: the overall resolution is 1e-7 / 1e+6 = 1e-13. Similarly The overall resolution in this example would be 1e-8 / 1e-7 = 1e-15. This should read: The overall resolution in this example would be 1e-8 / 1e+7 = 1e-15. These were obvious typos that I hope did not confuse anyone. Best Regards Mike Monett ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] COMPLETELY off topic - but I know you'll read itanyway.
2008/10/12 Don Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The A channel handles the positive voltage and the B channel becomes the negative, thus doubling the output voltage swing. This is a very odd way to state what's happening in the bridged mode. You gatta love manuals written by the marketing department. Not totally wrong but only accurate during complex instances in time when the positive half of the output is indeed handled by ch-A and the negative by ch-B. In another instance however, this will be reversed. A more accurate description is what someone else has already stated as a push-pull arrangement of the out-of-phase driven channels. The bridge mode switch couples one of the input channels to both output stages but also inserts an additional op-amp stage (phase inverter) in only one of the channels. Now as the input signal goes positive, the hot terminal of ch-A will be driven positive while the hot terminal of ch-B will be driven negative equally. All this reverses as the input signal goes negative. It should be called differential output. 73 Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What is the best counter for a Time Nuts?
2008/10/12 Mike Monett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Two corrections: The denominators in the following equations have the wrong polarity in the exponent: the overall resolution is 1e-7 / 1e-6 = 1e-13. This should read: the overall resolution is 1e-7 / 1e+6 = 1e-13. Similarly The overall resolution in this example would be 1e-8 / 1e-7 = 1e-15. This should read: The overall resolution in this example would be 1e-8 / 1e+7 = 1e-15. These were obvious typos that I hope did not confuse anyone. Best Regards Mike Monett ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. I was confused even before I read the posts :) 73 Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
Steve Rooke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike, I'm in the process of switching over to Ubuntu, and I already checked - Wine handles Pimmy. Whilst Wine is a very useful utility, I would only use it if there is an absolute need to run a Windows application whith no equivalent. If you are switching to Linux, you really would be advised look for equivalent applications to the Windows ones. I have been running Eagle pcb cad on Suse since 2001. I am extremely happy with linux. But LTspice requires Wine, Pimmy will run on it, and also Hotkeyz. This will tide me over until I can find replacements, but LTspice will always need Wine. My friend down the hall keeps experimenting with different Linux distros and tells me about his experiences, some good and some not so good. For now, it looks like I will be running Suse and Ubuntu. Does linux have an email client that handles multiple accounts? Well, the obvious one is Thunderbird which will do all the things that I can see that Pimmy can do, given my albeit brief overview of this application from the parent website. I tried Thunderbird some time ago, but I think I gave up since it would not handle multiple accounts like Pimmy does. That may have changed. But the message there is to go to KasMail and get a bunch of disposable email addresses. Then kill any that pick up spam. But you need a client that takes care of all the details in handling multiple accounts, or you very quickly get in a lot of trouble. Pimmy does that very well. I just checked - the last spam I got was a phishing email for a London bank. It was last August 14, which is two months ago. One spam every two months is not so bad. I can handle that:) Obviously, if you are going down the Ubuntu path, there is Evolution which I think will fit the bill for you and is the default email client for the Gnome desktop system. Personally I use a KDE desktop which I consider is considerably more powerful than Gnome and, coincidently, is a much closer style of a desktop to the Windows experience. You can, of course, select KDE when you install Ubuntu or go for a KDE orientated version called Kbuntu. I know that everyone raves about Ubuntu but I've personally been with SuSE for many years, and now with OpenSUSE, and I find it a very polished distribution. It's just a case of what your preferences are. My preferences are stuff that works, doesn't crash and doesn't erase my files. Once you are inside a CAD program or writing code, it really doesn't matter what system you are on as long as it works. [...] The good thing about Linux is that you can still run an up to date version with good performance on quite mediocre hardware and new versions don't generally drop support for older hardware. You generally won't have to go out and buy a new printer, scanner, graphics card, etc. when a new release comes out. But, unless your a UNIX man, it's going to be a a steep learning curve and it's all too easy to give up and throw it in the too hard bin. Just persevere and think the Linux way. Eventually it will be like those comfortable old slippers and you will enjoy the power and flexibility you have in your hands. I really have no problems running Linux. I still write most of my programs in DOS, so commandline switches are not an issue. I just include them in my programs so I don't have to remember all the silly options, like all the stuff you can do with PKZip. So far, I just haven't had the time to sit down and do the conversion to Linux. But now my lab is expanding, and I can no longer get motherboards with drivers for Win98, so I have no choice. And that was my message for those still hoping XP will last forever. It won't. Bill will see to that:) 73 Steve Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD Omnium finis imminet Thanks for the encouragement! Best Regards, Mike Monett ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What is the best counter for a Time Nuts?
Magnus Danielson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] It's an analogue world after all, so we need to evaluate it as an analogue system. Cheers, Magnus Magnus, Thank you for your reply. I challenge you to a duel. Picoseconds at 50 paces:) You build your system and show the results. I should have my complete system running by Christmas, and will post everything. Perhaps we can agree on a common set of oscillators. I will have an old LPRO Rubidium and two IsoTemp 134 OXCO's from eBay, plus GPS time. Bet I beat you:) Best Regards, Mike Monett ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What is the best counter for a Time Nuts?
At 04:17 PM 10/11/2008, Magnus Danielson wrote... It's an analogue world after all, so we need to evaluate it as an analogue system. I take it you don't agree with quantum theory (mechanics, electrodynamics, chromodynamics, etc.)? I suppose we're still far from measuring at the scale of Planck time, so it's hard to prove one way or the other. Still, quantum physics has been empirically useful where analog physics fails. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What is the best counter for a Time Nuts?
Mike You've obviously never tried this, in practice its noise is a lot higher than you think, perhaps 2 orders of magnitude worse than a double balanced mixer. You need to breadboard this and do some tests. Bruce Bruce, Thank you for the reply. Please let me introduce myself. I know this circuit very well. I've been using it since 1970, where it formed the basis of development work that led to my second patent, US 4533881. Among other things, this patent was the first to recognize the problem of deadband in the PLL phase/frequency detector, and shows how to fix it. People still get it wrong even today. That patent led to an amazing discovery, documented in the paper: Effect of Bitshift Distribution on Error Rate in Magnetic Recording, Eric R. Katz and Thomas G. Campbell, IEEE Transaction on Magnetics, Vol. MAG-15, No. 3, May 1979, pp 1050-1053. This technique saved the hard disk drive industry hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars. It did this by separating the contributions of the head, media, preamplifier, servo system, disk defects, external EMI, and anything else that affected the error rate. It gave manufacturing a very quick test to tell if a drive was meeting the error rate spec, and tells what to do if it failed. It also gave head and media manufacturers a way to measure the performance of their products, and a way to meet the competition that was using the same technique. It told RD engineers how well their design was working, and what to do to improve it. It had a tremendous effect on every disk drive company on the planet, and there were over 220 at the peak. I made a great deal of money developing test systems that used this technique for manufacturers all over the world. I owned a house in Saratoga Hills in Silicon Valley. I had two Mercedes and three Lexus for my managers, and gave a bunch of Toyota station wagons to my staff so they wouldn't have problems getting to work. I helped most of my staff buy houses. I bought this plane brand new, Piper Malibu N4360V. http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5874208nseq=0 This is a twin turbocharged with constant speed prop, pressurized, retractable, six-place high performance aircraft with a service ceiling of 25,000 ft. That is above most of the weather, and I put over 750 hours on it flying to customers all over the US. It was truly the nicest plane I have ever had the pleasure to fly, but you have to watch it on takeoff when the turbos spool up. The torque will take you into the weeds if you are not ready for it. It is very nice to see it is still in the air:) All of this resulted from work using the circuit I described above, so I know it pretty well. It works a lot better than you think it does. It also forms the basis of two of my latest inventions, which will be disclosed as soon as I have time to get my new web site up and running. The old site was finally taken down by Microsoft, so I can't give you a working url. But at this moment, searching for the phrase binary sampler in quotes gives me the first four hits in google, so you can see it was up until recently. Unfortunately the WayBack machine doesn't link to images, so I can't send you there to see how it works. But I should have the above circuit running around Christmas, along with some other new stuff. I'll be happy to discuss these issues when there is hardware to make measurements on. Best Regards, Mike Monett ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sound and time
At 12:16 PM + 10/11/08, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: As former sound technician... I used to do that stuff too, being the bass player/sound guy in a cheesy bar band. Loads of fun! Any more time nuts with sound reinforcement experience? -- --David Forbes, Tucson, AZ http://www.cathodecorner.com/ Hi Dave, In the 70's and 80's my partner and I in Fairbanks worked with another friend in Anchorage and together we did sound for hundreds of commercial concerts in Alaska. Shipping equipment up here was a major issue for promoters and with 20KW sound systems in both major cities we got a lot of work. Eventually dedicated facilities with built-in sound systems were constructed which put us out of business. Sure was fun while it lasted though! Richard ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] What is the best counter for a Time Nuts?
Hello to the Time Nuts, I have been reading the mail on this topic for the last week or so with great interest. Lots of interesting ideas have been put forth for measuring frequency to a high degree of precision and for comparing a 10 MHz clock's frequency to a highly accurate 10Mhz frequency standard. The way I measure the frequency of a 10 MHz clock is to compare it to a second 10MHz clock of known accuracy and stability, not only with a frequency counter but also with a phase meter. I have several GPS disciplined OCXO's, one GPS disciplined Rubidium oscillator, and several free running rubidium oscillators. I measure the frequency of an unknown 10 MHz clock using a 2 step process. First I measure the unknown 10 MHz clock using an HP 5384A reciprocal counter that employs my known 10 MHz clock as its external timebase. I set the gate time to 10 seconds and the counter delivers a frequency measurement with a resolution of less than 3 mhz (3 millihertz). So, assuming my known timebase is bang on, I know the frequency of the unknown 10 MHz source to an accuracy of roughly 3e-10 or 3 parts in 10 billion. To get a more precise measurement of the frequency difference between the two 10 MHz clocks, I supply the known 10 MHz clock to the Channel A input of an HP 3575A Gain-Phase meter and the unknown 10 MHz clock to the channel B input of the Gain-Phase meter. I measure the change in the phase angle between the 2 input clocks over some convenient time interval (e.g., 10, 100, or 1,000 seconds) and compute the frequency difference using the formula: Frequency Difference = [Change in Phase Angle (in degrees) / Measurement Duration (in seconds)] X [1 / 360] The frequency difference can then be converted to frequency accuracy using the formula: Accuracy = Frequency Difference / 1e7 This seems like a pretty straight forward technique. Am I missing something? Charlie Myers WA3RAD ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sulzer Labs D-5 oscillator
Hi Mike, 2008/10/12 Mike Monett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have been running Eagle pcb cad on Suse since 2001. I am extremely happy with linux. But LTspice requires Wine, Pimmy will run on it, and also Hotkeyz. This will tide me over until I can find replacements, but LTspice will always need Wine. Ok, I understand the need, certainly, for LTspice. Have you looked at the hotkey support under KDE, I know it may not be as simple and slick as Hotkeyz but once configured it may do what you want. I'll cover what I think you are meaning about the need for Pimmy later. My friend down the hall keeps experimenting with different Linux distros and tells me about his experiences, some good and some not so good. For now, it looks like I will be running Suse and Ubuntu. Well, we all can have bad experiences with the OS at times. I've certainly done things that have pushed it well over the edge and it has fallen into broken pieces but that was my fault for trying to do something that did not work. But, whenever this has happened, I've been able to pick up the pieces and put it back together every time, without having to resort to getting the install disks out. And I frequently work well beyond the bleeding-edge. It really bugs me the times I have to completely rebuild my WinXP laptop system after nothing more than sneezing on it. Quite how an enterprise can even think about basing it's precious business on this completely puzzles me but then I'm not taken in by the slick high pressure marketing stuff. Take Nobodies Word For It is a good adage and was an excellent Brit TV series. Carol Vordawoman, the thinking man's crumpet (sorry, off the rails again). I tried Thunderbird some time ago, but I think I gave up since it would not handle multiple accounts like Pimmy does. That may have changed. But the message there is to go to KasMail and get a bunch of disposable email addresses. Then kill any that pick up spam. But you need a client that takes care of all the details in handling multiple accounts, or you very quickly get in a lot of trouble. Pimmy does that very well. OK, so you open up a bunch of tmp mail addresses and want to use them transparently from a mail client. One obvious way is to use Gmail as the main account and add the external KasMail mailboxes to it. You can get Gmail to label the foreign mail addresses with their own account name and to automatically handle the sending addresses to be the remote mailbox on replies. When you compose a fresh thread, you just select the sending address as you require. I use this system all the time for the same reasons that you have stated. It's also possible to do the same thing with Thunderbird. Just add the external email accounts and configure it to send with a return address of the external email box. I have no idea if these options are as slick and easy to use as Pimmy as I have never used it. I just checked - the last spam I got was a phishing email for a London bank. It was last August 14, which is two months ago. One spam every two months is not so bad. I can handle that:) Congratulations. Last time I looked at my Mother's email account, she had about 1300 spam messages over the last 30 days. Yes, really! she is hopeless, hands over her details to every Tom, Dick and Harry despite my strong advice not to do so. My preferences are stuff that works, doesn't crash and doesn't erase my files. Once you are inside a CAD program or writing code, it really doesn't matter what system you are on as long as it works. Well, not much crashes under the stable, IE. non bleeding-edge, Lunux these days apart from the stupid Flash plugin under Firefox, I guess. That's the thing that really bugs me. I really have no problems running Linux. I still write most of my programs in DOS, so commandline switches are not an issue. I just include them in my programs so I don't have to remember all the silly options, like all the stuff you can do with PKZip. That's what 'man command' or --help is for. Mind you that probably does not apply in the other-world. When I stared out with UNIX there was no X Windows, it was all command line and I'm at my most comfort when I'm working down there too. It's certainly much more powerful than any gui version of the application I have seen. So far, I just haven't had the time to sit down and do the conversion to Linux. But now my lab is expanding, and I can no longer get motherboards with drivers for Win98, so I have no choice. Cool, well it's of no loss to you, I would see it as a gain. They have been saying that UNIX (Linux is just a clone of it) is dead since the 70's and that has kept a smile on my face for the last three decades. Seems they may have thrown out the bathwater but the baby is still alive and kicking. And that was my message for those still hoping XP will last forever. I think Vista will
Re: [time-nuts] What is the best counter for a Time Nuts?
2008/10/12 Myers, Charlie [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello to the Time Nuts, I have been reading the mail on this topic for the last week or so with great interest. Lots of interesting ideas have been put forth for measuring frequency to a high degree of precision and for comparing a 10 MHz clock's frequency to a highly accurate 10Mhz frequency standard. The way I measure the frequency of a 10 MHz clock is to compare it to a second 10MHz clock of known accuracy and stability, not only with a frequency counter but also with a phase meter. I have several GPS disciplined OCXO's, one GPS disciplined Rubidium oscillator, and several free running rubidium oscillators. I measure the frequency of an unknown 10 MHz clock using a 2 step process. First I measure the unknown 10 MHz clock using an HP 5384A reciprocal counter that employs my known 10 MHz clock as its external timebase. I set the gate time to 10 seconds and the counter delivers a frequency measurement with a resolution of less than 3 mhz (3 millihertz). So, assuming my known timebase is bang on, I know the frequency of the unknown 10 MHz source to an accuracy of roughly 3e-10 or 3 parts in 10 billion. To get a more precise measurement of the frequency difference between the two 10 MHz clocks, I supply the known 10 MHz clock to the Channel A input of an HP 3575A Gain-Phase meter and the unknown 10 MHz clock to the channel B input of the Gain-Phase meter. I measure the change in the phase angle between the 2 input clocks over some convenient time interval (e.g., 10, 100, or 1,000 seconds) and compute the frequency difference using the formula: Frequency Difference = [Change in Phase Angle (in degrees) / Measurement Duration (in seconds)] X [1 / 360] The frequency difference can then be converted to frequency accuracy using the formula: Accuracy = Frequency Difference / 1e7 This seems like a pretty straight forward technique. Am I missing something? So what's time nutty about this method... :) -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
