Re: [time-nuts] 58503A faceplate
Hi In earlier posts they mention that the units are re-packaged by them. I have no idea if the parts used are HP originals or if they made a run of faceplates themselves. The bumpers and other stuff are common enough that a lot of us have a pile of them stashed away. Bob On Mar 20, 2011, at 6:55 PM, jeffh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi, I was looking at ebay listing # 270715207648 and it looks like the seller added a faceplate to the Z3801A, and a couple front rubber bumpers from 34401A/33120A. I would like to do the same thing with my Z3805A. Any idea where I could buy a 58503A faceplate or decal? Agilent part #? Thanks Jeff ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt setup
Hi Ok, so I had it backwards. I remembered it not popping up on some downloads. Thanks! Bob On Mar 20, 2011, at 7:56 PM, John Miles wrote: The remote shortcut is not in the 'shipping' 2.0 version at http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/setup.exe but it's present in the current 3.0 beta at http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/beta.exe . -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]On Behalf Of Bob Camp Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 11:58 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt setup Hi I'm not sure that the desktop shortcut is there in all versions, including the various betas. Bob On Mar 20, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Shawn Tayler wrote: Thanks Chuck! That was going to be my next question' Sent from my iPhone On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:09, Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote: k6...@comcast.net wrote: ... You want to pick up a copy of Lady Heather from John's website, here: http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/beta.exe You can do this well in advance of actually having your own Thunderbolt, antenna, and all the fixins'... Assuming you have a windows box to run it on, one of the really great things about the software is that it comes with a desktop shortcut that will start it up connected to one of John's Thunderbolts, so you can see one in action and get an idea for what a Thunderbolt looks like when its running. Lady Heather runs just fine using Wine on Linux systems. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 50/60 Hz clocks
Hi Since you are starting with a 100 ns pulse train as an input, you can bracket any period you need inside a 100 ns window. Put another way, your error will always be less than 100 ns. In this case you would either be off by 33.3 ns or 66.6 ns. A mechanical clock is not going to notice jitter in the sub microsecond region. Put out the periods in a 2:1 ratio and you have a 60 Hz signal that the clock will be quite happy with. Generating the divides and switching between them should work pretty well with a fairly small CPLD. Bob On Mar 20, 2011, at 11:51 PM, Flemming Larsen wrote: You could also take the simple approach and divide the 10 MHz signal into a signal with a more convenient period, say 1 mS. If you then take the 1 mS and feed it into a simple flip-flop and set or reset this at any interval that falls closest to 1/60 second, you should have an output with a reasonable close to a 50-50 duty cycle, but at EXACTLY 60 Hz. According to my old-school math, if you decode the 1 mS counts intervals using whole counts, 8, 17, 25, 33, 42, 50, then keep repeating this you should come up with a 60 Hz signal at something that resembles a square wave. If you need something closer to a square wave output, you could start with a 10 KHz signal, divide that signal by any convenient number, then decode the counts 83, 167, 250, etc. Somebody else can do the math, but this should produce a 60 Hz signal with a close enough to a 50-50 duty cycle to keep a motor running at the right speed. -- Flemming Larsen, KB6ADS/OZ6OI, Berkeley, CA, USA Disclaimer: This method has not been tested, and is not endorsed by any rocket scientist. Use with caution, and always be sure to wear proper eye-protection. --- Den søn 20/3/11 skrev WB6BNQ wb6...@cox.net: Fra: WB6BNQ wb6...@cox.net Emne: Re: [time-nuts] 50/60 Hz clocks Til: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Dato: søndag 20. marts 2011 19.40 Paul, Even the low end regular DDS, like the 9831, using a 10 MHz striaght through clock will produce a frequency of 60.0004568696022 Hz or 50.0003807246685 Hz as an output. Simple (ok, perhaps not) amplification after that will get the clock drive needed. Just because some of Analog Devices' more unique products sound neet, they do not always perform as well as the simpler parts. While not easy to find, here is a tool on the A/D site that allows for design simulation of the DDS clock functions. You can even see a tabular table of the spur generation. In the above simulation case they are quite low. http://designtools.analog.com/dtDDSWeb/dtDDSMain.aspx BillWB6BNQ paul swed wrote: Speaking of dds the ad5932 can do this also 10 MC in and 60.20069122 out Change 1 bit and you get 59.6046448 it would be quite easy to bounce back and fourth between the two frequencies like the power company does over time. Thats a small 16 pin chip for a few $. Plus a small pic to make it do what you might want. It could also use any number of other ref clock frequencies1, 5, 15, 20, 50 MC and even ones that aren't sensible to drive the chip. You can take the square wave out or a true sine wave or a triangle if needed. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 7:22 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 03/21/2011 12:10 AM, Hal Murray wrote: If the plan is to drive a mechanical clock, I assume long term stability is more important than phase noise. Many small microcontrollers (I use 8051's from Silabs) have a built-in PLL that can be set to run at 15 MHz from an external 10 MHz reference (applied to the external oscillator input), and use the program space to implement a divider that will give you exactly 60 Hz. That is a one chip solution. The processor will accept the sinewave from the reference oscillator without extra shaping circuit. In case your favorite chip doesn't have a PLL... You can run directly from a 10 MHz clock as long as you can tolerate a bit more phase noise and/or spurs. The software just gets a bit more complicated. Instead of dividing by N, it has to mix delays of N and N+1 in the right ratio. You can also do it with a DDS in a FPGA. The trick is to use a decimal adder rather than a binary adder. 60/1000 in binary isn't a clean fraction so the clock will drift slightly. [This should be simple, but I'm not sure I've got it right.] On the other hand, if you use a 64 bit binary adder, that's 16*2^30*2^30 or 16*1E9*1E9 or 16E18. Call it 1E19. We are clocking at 10E7 Hz, so (worst case) the counter will be off by a full cycle every 1E12 seconds. There are 3E9 seconds per century. So after a century, the clock would be off by 3E-3 cycles or 50 microseconds. On the other hand, it would not be difficult to make a DDS which hit 60/1000 exactly. Reducing it by 20 on each
Re: [time-nuts] 50/60 Hz clocks
Another method would be to make a little drive circuit for the stepper and just divide the 100 nS down to 1 pps. Just observe the drive pulse to the clock and duplicate it. It seems to me it is under a mS and battery Voltage for the amplitude. Greg On 3/21/2011 5:44 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Since you are starting with a 100 ns pulse train as an input, you can bracket any period you need inside a 100 ns window. Put another way, your error will always be less than 100 ns. In this case you would either be off by 33.3 ns or 66.6 ns. A mechanical clock is not going to notice jitter in the sub microsecond region. Put out the periods in a 2:1 ratio and you have a 60 Hz signal that the clock will be quite happy with. Generating the divides and switching between them should work pretty well with a fairly small CPLD. Bob On Mar 20, 2011, at 11:51 PM, Flemming Larsen wrote: You could also take the simple approach and divide the 10 MHz signal into a signal with a more convenient period, say 1 mS. If you then take the 1 mS and feed it into a simple flip-flop and set or reset this at any interval that falls closest to 1/60 second, you should have an output with a reasonable close to a 50-50 duty cycle, but at EXACTLY 60 Hz. According to my old-school math, if you decode the 1 mS counts intervals using whole counts, 8, 17, 25, 33, 42, 50, then keep repeating this you should come up with a 60 Hz signal at something that resembles a square wave. If you need something closer to a square wave output, you could start with a 10 KHz signal, divide that signal by any convenient number, then decode the counts 83, 167, 250, etc. Somebody else can do the math, but this should produce a 60 Hz signal with a close enough to a 50-50 duty cycle to keep a motor running at the right speed. -- Flemming Larsen, KB6ADS/OZ6OI, Berkeley, CA, USA Disclaimer: This method has not been tested, and is not endorsed by any rocket scientist. Use with caution, and always be sure to wear proper eye-protection. --- Den søn 20/3/11 skrev WB6BNQwb6...@cox.net: Fra: WB6BNQwb6...@cox.net Emne: Re: [time-nuts] 50/60 Hz clocks Til: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Dato: søndag 20. marts 2011 19.40 Paul, Even the low end regular DDS, like the 9831, using a 10 MHz striaght through clock will produce a frequency of 60.0004568696022 Hz or 50.0003807246685 Hz as an output. Simple (ok, perhaps not) amplification after that will get the clock drive needed. Just because some of Analog Devices' more unique products sound neet, they do not always perform as well as the simpler parts. While not easy to find, here is a tool on the A/D site that allows for design simulation of the DDS clock functions. You can even see a tabular table of the spur generation. In the above simulation case they are quite low. http://designtools.analog.com/dtDDSWeb/dtDDSMain.aspx BillWB6BNQ paul swed wrote: Speaking of dds the ad5932 can do this also 10 MC in and 60.20069122 out Change 1 bit and you get 59.6046448 it would be quite easy to bounce back and fourth between the two frequencies like the power company does over time. Thats a small 16 pin chip for a few $. Plus a small pic to make it do what you might want. It could also use any number of other ref clock frequencies1, 5, 15, 20, 50 MC and even ones that aren't sensible to drive the chip. You can take the square wave out or a true sine wave or a triangle if needed. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 7:22 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 03/21/2011 12:10 AM, Hal Murray wrote: If the plan is to drive a mechanical clock, I assume long term stability is more important than phase noise. Many small microcontrollers (I use 8051's from Silabs) have a built-in PLL that can be set to run at 15 MHz from an external 10 MHz reference (applied to the external oscillator input), and use the program space to implement a divider that will give you exactly 60 Hz. That is a one chip solution. The processor will accept the sinewave from the reference oscillator without extra shaping circuit. In case your favorite chip doesn't have a PLL... You can run directly from a 10 MHz clock as long as you can tolerate a bit more phase noise and/or spurs. The software just gets a bit more complicated. Instead of dividing by N, it has to mix delays of N and N+1 in the right ratio. You can also do it with a DDS in a FPGA. The trick is to use a decimal adder rather than a binary adder. 60/1000 in binary isn't a clean fraction so the clock will drift slightly. [This should be simple, but I'm not sure I've got it right.] On the other hand, if you use a 64 bit binary adder, that's 16*2^30*2^30 or 16*1E9*1E9 or 16E18. Call it 1E19. We are clocking at 10E7 Hz, so (worst case) the counter will be off by a full cycle every 1E12 seconds. There are 3E9 seconds per century. So after a
Re: [time-nuts] 50/60 Hz clocks
I suspect we have given a ton of approaches and whatever was attempting to be done is lost in the thread someplace. Lots of options these days On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Greg Broburg semif...@comcast.net wrote: Another method would be to make a little drive circuit for the stepper and just divide the 100 nS down to 1 pps. Just observe the drive pulse to the clock and duplicate it. It seems to me it is under a mS and battery Voltage for the amplitude. Greg On 3/21/2011 5:44 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Since you are starting with a 100 ns pulse train as an input, you can bracket any period you need inside a 100 ns window. Put another way, your error will always be less than 100 ns. In this case you would either be off by 33.3 ns or 66.6 ns. A mechanical clock is not going to notice jitter in the sub microsecond region. Put out the periods in a 2:1 ratio and you have a 60 Hz signal that the clock will be quite happy with. Generating the divides and switching between them should work pretty well with a fairly small CPLD. Bob On Mar 20, 2011, at 11:51 PM, Flemming Larsen wrote: You could also take the simple approach and divide the 10 MHz signal into a signal with a more convenient period, say 1 mS. If you then take the 1 mS and feed it into a simple flip-flop and set or reset this at any interval that falls closest to 1/60 second, you should have an output with a reasonable close to a 50-50 duty cycle, but at EXACTLY 60 Hz. According to my old-school math, if you decode the 1 mS counts intervals using whole counts, 8, 17, 25, 33, 42, 50, then keep repeating this you should come up with a 60 Hz signal at something that resembles a square wave. If you need something closer to a square wave output, you could start with a 10 KHz signal, divide that signal by any convenient number, then decode the counts 83, 167, 250, etc. Somebody else can do the math, but this should produce a 60 Hz signal with a close enough to a 50-50 duty cycle to keep a motor running at the right speed. -- Flemming Larsen, KB6ADS/OZ6OI, Berkeley, CA, USA Disclaimer: This method has not been tested, and is not endorsed by any rocket scientist. Use with caution, and always be sure to wear proper eye-protection. --- Den søn 20/3/11 skrev WB6BNQwb6...@cox.net: Fra: WB6BNQwb6...@cox.net Emne: Re: [time-nuts] 50/60 Hz clocks Til: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Dato: søndag 20. marts 2011 19.40 Paul, Even the low end regular DDS, like the 9831, using a 10 MHz striaght through clock will produce a frequency of 60.0004568696022 Hz or 50.0003807246685 Hz as an output. Simple (ok, perhaps not) amplification after that will get the clock drive needed. Just because some of Analog Devices' more unique products sound neet, they do not always perform as well as the simpler parts. While not easy to find, here is a tool on the A/D site that allows for design simulation of the DDS clock functions. You can even see a tabular table of the spur generation. In the above simulation case they are quite low. http://designtools.analog.com/dtDDSWeb/dtDDSMain.aspx BillWB6BNQ paul swed wrote: Speaking of dds the ad5932 can do this also 10 MC in and 60.20069122 out Change 1 bit and you get 59.6046448 it would be quite easy to bounce back and fourth between the two frequencies like the power company does over time. Thats a small 16 pin chip for a few $. Plus a small pic to make it do what you might want. It could also use any number of other ref clock frequencies1, 5, 15, 20, 50 MC and even ones that aren't sensible to drive the chip. You can take the square wave out or a true sine wave or a triangle if needed. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 7:22 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 03/21/2011 12:10 AM, Hal Murray wrote: If the plan is to drive a mechanical clock, I assume long term stability is more important than phase noise. Many small microcontrollers (I use 8051's from Silabs) have a built-in PLL that can be set to run at 15 MHz from an external 10 MHz reference (applied to the external oscillator input), and use the program space to implement a divider that will give you exactly 60 Hz. That is a one chip solution. The processor will accept the sinewave from the reference oscillator without extra shaping circuit. In case your favorite chip doesn't have a PLL... You can run directly from a 10 MHz clock as long as you can tolerate a bit more phase noise and/or spurs. The software just gets a bit more complicated. Instead of dividing by N, it has to mix delays of N and N+1 in the right ratio. You can also do it with a DDS in a FPGA. The trick is to use a decimal adder rather than a binary adder. 60/1000 in binary isn't a clean fraction so the clock will drift
Re: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available
I would be interested in any cpu/eproms. Not sure of your location. My goal will be to copy the eproms and share back to the group and put on some website for others. After I am done someone else can have the memory/cpu board. Hate to loose that type of information. Regards Paul W8TSL On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 12:38 AM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote: Eric, My 5372A fails Test 4, 'Input Amplifiers', with 'Input Bias Failure', 'Input Bias Test 6: MAX: 2172 (Min: 2172) [2191 2235]', and Test 6, 'Count ICs', with 'Count ICs Failed A3U37 and A3U42' and 'A3 U37, U42 chain FAILED --bad count [4.1902 mS gate] : 0029517C [001FF7FC]'. I am not sure what all that means but it would appear that the problem is on the A5, A4, or A3 board. Since Channel A is dead and Channel B works, A5 may be the culprit I would like to hear what boards you have to offer. Thanks, Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. L. Trantham Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 8:34 AM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available Eric, I have a 5372A that has a problem on one of the input channels. I mistakenly unplugged the input pod and reinserted it with the power on. Since then, that channel does not work. I can't remember the specific failed test right now but I will investigate. The pod still works, the problem stays with the channel. I think I need to repair one of the boards. Where are you located? Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Eric Haskell Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 1:42 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available I just scrap out a 5372a. The unit was working but reporting a histogram error. I am keeping a few parts, the rest is available. Let me know if you need anything. Eric Haskell ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1498/3517 - Release Date: 03/19/11 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1498/3517 - Release Date: 03/19/11 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Reversing the 3522 OT Systron-Donner Basic
Greg, I did some similar with my Ohio Scientific C1P some 30 years ago, because I needed to modify the interpreter to understand a Spanish translation of Basic for an educational project. It was fun but takes a long time. Now I was trying to locate somebody who used the machine on its time and that could remember the info. Best regards, Ignacio El 21/03/2011 4:37, Greg Broburg wrote: Any chance you have access to the operating code? Maybe 2716s or 2732s ?? Take the bare binary code and convert it to ASCII. With an ASCII text version of the code and a 6802 program manual all that it takes is some perseverence to successfully reverse engineer the little devil into some few hundreds of lines of code. Been there done that. Fascinating to see how tight those early writers could pack a working idea when 16k ROMs were 10 bucks a piece. I call em midnight cookies and milk projects. A few lines at a time will eventually turn into a flood. Breakthroughs come when you figure out the definitions of the RAM locations and the write locations for data output. Real luck would be to find a 6802 reverse compiler that would work. That can speed it up a bunch. Greg On 3/20/2011 7:58 PM, EB4APL wrote: Alan, This Basic has not the reserved word USING, and by the context I'm pretty sure that STYLE sets the format for subsequent PRINT's until changed. No luck playing with commas, brackets and other punctuation so far. About Chuck's snippet, there is a pity that it don't make use of STYLE. By the way, probably the controller was a previous model, the SD-3520, which has the same look but doesn't include a UV light eraser for the EPROM program cartridges. (And yes, I had reverse engineered and built a cartridge without any sample or info on them, just deducing its existence from the presence of a Centronics like connector on the top, the UV eraser and the commands PROG ROM, READ ROM and CART INFO). The SD-3520 also uses a previous version of Basic with some differences, for example it seems that the BUS OUT command has been replaced by BUS PRINT. I have to repeat my tanks to all who had sent me on the list or directly their help. And to the ones who wonder why I'm taking so much effort for resurrecting this device I can respond something that I heard some 30 years ago when some Nuts began to build home computers: they are as useful as a golf clubs set, they are fun! Best regards, Ignacio EB4APL El 21/03/2011 1:18, Chuck Harris wrote: I found a little snippet for the SD-3250 in a synthesizer manual: 1) BUS CLR Return# Prepare controller for Bus operation 2) BUS REM Return# Clear the bus and command 1702 to operate 3) BUS OUT GO256540 Return# Set frequency to 25.654 MHz. 4) BUS OUT GO256000 or C000 Return# Change frequency to 25.6MHz, 2 methods 5) BUS OUT L0555 or L3355 Return# set level to -25.5 dBm, 2 methods 6) BUS OUT MO Return# Select AM mode 7) BUS IN A Return Print A Return# Check operating status Comments were added by me, and there is no indication that # is a valid comment indicator. So, basically, it looks a bit cruder than even BASIC. -Chuck Harris Alan Melia wrote: the problem is trying to guess the syntaxI was thinking of somethings like. Set Style ##.### // or may be just Style ##.### try this ##.### as well. Print using style, a,b,c It may be possible to define a number of styles, then it might be.. style 1; ##.### style 2; #.# print using 1; a, b: print using 2; c Once again try the ### in inverted commas. I seem to recollect a similar syntax somewhere but I dont recognise the reserved word STYLE either you can obviously play games with the commas, colons and semi-colons to see what works. the print statements you have discovered will give a lead to that. Wrong synatx on an immediate command (at the prompt) should show an error straight away. If you can find one manual for any programmable instrument from S-D you will probably find an example that will show most of the command syntax. Think of the parsing and what chars are needed as delimiters to make this easy for the processor. I cant help there I have no S-D equipment. but there must be some around with manuals :-)) Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: EB4APLeb4...@cembreros.jazztel.es To:time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT Systron-Donner Basic Alan, It doesn't work, neither (.#), #.# and a lot of other combinations that I already tried. I was able to get the other commands syntax even the non standard basic ones even with several parameters, but this one is very resilient to all my efforts after diving in old Basic, Fortran, Algol, etc. manuals but never found a STYLE statement.I always get ILLEGAL STYLE error and no other cues. Thank you anyway, I appreciate all efforts. Ignacio EB4APL El 20/03/2011 18:12, Alan Melia wrote:
Re: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available
Hi One very useful piece of information to have - which eproms are they? There was a field upgrade of these and the 5371's in the early 90's. The upgrade added several commands and likely fixed some bugs. I *assume* the upgrade was an eprom switch out, but I have never verified that. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 9:07 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available I would be interested in any cpu/eproms. Not sure of your location. My goal will be to copy the eproms and share back to the group and put on some website for others. After I am done someone else can have the memory/cpu board. Hate to loose that type of information. Regards Paul W8TSL On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 12:38 AM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote: Eric, My 5372A fails Test 4, 'Input Amplifiers', with 'Input Bias Failure', 'Input Bias Test 6: MAX: 2172 (Min: 2172) [2191 2235]', and Test 6, 'Count ICs', with 'Count ICs Failed A3U37 and A3U42' and 'A3 U37, U42 chain FAILED --bad count [4.1902 mS gate] : 0029517C [001FF7FC]'. I am not sure what all that means but it would appear that the problem is on the A5, A4, or A3 board. Since Channel A is dead and Channel B works, A5 may be the culprit I would like to hear what boards you have to offer. Thanks, Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. L. Trantham Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 8:34 AM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available Eric, I have a 5372A that has a problem on one of the input channels. I mistakenly unplugged the input pod and reinserted it with the power on. Since then, that channel does not work. I can't remember the specific failed test right now but I will investigate. The pod still works, the problem stays with the channel. I think I need to repair one of the boards. Where are you located? Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Eric Haskell Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 1:42 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available I just scrap out a 5372a. The unit was working but reporting a histogram error. I am keeping a few parts, the rest is available. Let me know if you need anything. Eric Haskell ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1498/3517 - Release Date: 03/19/11 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1498/3517 - Release Date: 03/19/11 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Reversing the 3522 OT Systron-Donner Basic
You might want to post a request on; f...@flexusergroup.com This is a user group of programmers and users of the MC6800 and family. It may require a wait for the moderator to OK the post. Bill K7NOM On 3/20/2011 8:37 PM, Greg Broburg wrote: Any chance you have access to the operating code? Maybe 2716s or 2732s ?? Take the bare binary code and convert it to ASCII. With an ASCII text version of the code and a 6802 program manual all that it takes is some perseverence to successfully reverse engineer the little devil into some few hundreds of lines of code. Been there done that. Fascinating to see how tight those early writers could pack a working idea when 16k ROMs were 10 bucks a piece. I call em midnight cookies and milk projects. A few lines at a time will eventually turn into a flood. Breakthroughs come when you figure out the definitions of the RAM locations and the write locations for data output. Real luck would be to find a 6802 reverse compiler that would work. That can speed it up a bunch. Greg On 3/20/2011 7:58 PM, EB4APL wrote: Alan, This Basic has not the reserved word USING, and by the context I'm pretty sure that STYLE sets the format for subsequent PRINT's until changed. No luck playing with commas, brackets and other punctuation so far. About Chuck's snippet, there is a pity that it don't make use of STYLE. By the way, probably the controller was a previous model, the SD-3520, which has the same look but doesn't include a UV light eraser for the EPROM program cartridges. (And yes, I had reverse engineered and built a cartridge without any sample or info on them, just deducing its existence from the presence of a Centronics like connector on the top, the UV eraser and the commands PROG ROM, READ ROM and CART INFO). The SD-3520 also uses a previous version of Basic with some differences, for example it seems that the BUS OUT command has been replaced by BUS PRINT. I have to repeat my tanks to all who had sent me on the list or directly their help. And to the ones who wonder why I'm taking so much effort for resurrecting this device I can respond something that I heard some 30 years ago when some Nuts began to build home computers: they are as useful as a golf clubs set, they are fun! Best regards, Ignacio EB4APL El 21/03/2011 1:18, Chuck Harris wrote: I found a little snippet for the SD-3250 in a synthesizer manual: 1) BUS CLR Return# Prepare controller for Bus operation 2) BUS REM Return# Clear the bus and command 1702 to operate 3) BUS OUT GO256540 Return# Set frequency to 25.654 MHz. 4) BUS OUT GO256000 or C000 Return# Change frequency to 25.6MHz, 2 methods 5) BUS OUT L0555 or L3355 Return# set level to -25.5 dBm, 2 methods 6) BUS OUT MO Return# Select AM mode 7) BUS IN A Return Print A Return# Check operating status Comments were added by me, and there is no indication that # is a valid comment indicator. So, basically, it looks a bit cruder than even BASIC. -Chuck Harris Alan Melia wrote: the problem is trying to guess the syntaxI was thinking of somethings like. Set Style ##.### // or may be just Style ##.### try this ##.### as well. Print using style, a,b,c It may be possible to define a number of styles, then it might be.. style 1; ##.### style 2; #.# print using 1; a, b: print using 2; c Once again try the ### in inverted commas. I seem to recollect a similar syntax somewhere but I dont recognise the reserved word STYLE either you can obviously play games with the commas, colons and semi-colons to see what works. the print statements you have discovered will give a lead to that. Wrong synatx on an immediate command (at the prompt) should show an error straight away. If you can find one manual for any programmable instrument from S-D you will probably find an example that will show most of the command syntax. Think of the parsing and what chars are needed as delimiters to make this easy for the processor. I cant help there I have no S-D equipment. but there must be some around with manuals :-)) Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: EB4APLeb4...@cembreros.jazztel.es To:time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT Systron-Donner Basic Alan, It doesn't work, neither (.#), #.# and a lot of other combinations that I already tried. I was able to get the other commands syntax even the non standard basic ones even with several parameters, but this one is very resilient to all my efforts after diving in old Basic, Fortran, Algol, etc. manuals but never found a STYLE statement.I always get ILLEGAL STYLE error and no other cues. Thank you anyway, I appreciate all efforts. Ignacio EB4APL El 20/03/2011 18:12, Alan Melia wrote: Hi Ignacio try the print like format with ##.## to define decimal places etc Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From:
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: A solution
Hello Everyone, I have spent the last few weeks modifying the HP 3586 Selective Level Meter. The intent was to modify the unit and reference the SSB product detector stage to the internal reference. This would make the entire SLM locked to the 10MHz reference, whether internal or externally fed. I have completed the modification with satisfactory results. I use a DDS-Based Function Generator 16-pin IC and a small 8-pin PIC micro. For more detail, visit my website at http://ve2zaz.net/HP3586_AD5962/HP3586_AD5962.htm . This has been a very good exercise from a DDS perspective and I have learned a lot on the topic. I would be interested in hearing from those who proceed with the mod. Thanks, Bert, VE2ZAZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: A solution
Have worked with Bert and also implemented the same DDS with a different controller but essentially the same scheme. It is working very well. Used it last night to monitor wwvb 60 Khz on the eastcoast. Using spectrum lab could not detect and wondering of the received signal at the 1 Hz and sub Hz level. There is a DDS offset that is fixed and predicted. The signal sounded very clean. No funny or odd sounds or intermod that my ears or spectrum lab could display. The very hardest part of the project was soldering the AD5932 TSOP onto an adapter board to add real wires. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Bert, VE2ZAZ ve2...@yahoo.ca wrote: Hello Everyone, I have spent the last few weeks modifying the HP 3586 Selective Level Meter. The intent was to modify the unit and reference the SSB product detector stage to the internal reference. This would make the entire SLM locked to the 10MHz reference, whether internal or externally fed. I have completed the modification with satisfactory results. I use a DDS-Based Function Generator 16-pin IC and a small 8-pin PIC micro. For more detail, visit my website at http://ve2zaz.net/HP3586_AD5962/HP3586_AD5962.htm . This has been a very good exercise from a DDS perspective and I have learned a lot on the topic. I would be interested in hearing from those who proceed with the mod. Thanks, Bert, VE2ZAZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: Asolution
Hi Bert, That is very interesting, thank you for sharing. Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: Bert, VE2ZAZ ve2...@yahoo.ca Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:11:04 To: time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: A solution Hello Everyone, I have spent the last few weeks modifying the HP 3586 Selective Level Meter. The intent was to modify the unit and reference the SSB product detector stage to the internal reference. This would make the entire SLM locked to the 10MHz reference, whether internal or externally fed. I have completed the modification with satisfactory results. I use a DDS-Based Function Generator 16-pin IC and a small 8-pin PIC micro. For more detail, visit my website at http://ve2zaz.net/HP3586_AD5962/HP3586_AD5962.htm . This has been a very good exercise from a DDS perspective and I have learned a lot on the topic. I would be interested in hearing from those who proceed with the mod. Thanks, Bert, VE2ZAZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5373A parts available
Hi One very useful piece of information to have - which eproms are they? There was a field upgrade of these and the 5371's in the early 90's. The upgrade added several commands and likely fixed some bugs. I *assume* the upgrade was an eprom switch out, but I have never verified that. Bob I already packed the board for shipment to the buyer but I think I saw a 1989 data label on the proms. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available
A1-A6 board have been sold to a buyer in Brazil. The only logic bard I have left is the 05372-6008 (A8 I think). I still have cosmetic parts like the the front panel top bottom and sides. I have all the sheet metal internal stuff and all the power supply boards and the power transformer. I also have 2 54002A pods. Eric My 5372A fails Test 4, 'Input Amplifiers', with 'Input Bias Failure', 'Input Bias Test 6: MAX: 2172 (Min: 2172) [2191 2235]', and Test 6, 'Count ICs', with 'Count ICs Failed A3U37 and A3U42' and 'A3 U37, U42 chain FAILED --bad count [4.1902 mS gate] : 0029517C [001FF7FC]'. I am not sure what all that means but it would appear that the problem is on the A5, A4, or A3 board. Since Channel A is dead and Channel B works, A5 may be the culprit I would like to hear what boards you have to offer. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available
There is one on ebay now that is a perfect match for you leftover parts. Greg On 3/21/2011 1:08 PM, Eric Haskell wrote: A1-A6 board have been sold to a buyer in Brazil. The only logic bard I have left is the 05372-6008 (A8 I think). I still have cosmetic parts like the the front panel top bottom and sides. I have all the sheet metal internal stuff and all the power supply boards and the power transformer. I also have 2 54002A pods. Eric My 5372A fails Test 4, 'Input Amplifiers', with 'Input Bias Failure', 'Input Bias Test 6: MAX: 2172 (Min: 2172) [2191 2235]', and Test 6, 'Count ICs', with 'Count ICs Failed A3U37 and A3U42' and 'A3 U37, U42 chain FAILED --bad count [4.1902 mS gate] : 0029517C [001FF7FC]'. I am not sure what all that means but it would appear that the problem is on the A5, A4, or A3 board. Since Channel A is dead and Channel B works, A5 may be the culprit I would like to hear what boards you have to offer. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 3586A/B/C vs 3746A
I can't get to my HP catalogs and wonder if someone has a quick description/comments of/on the 3746A -pete ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3586A/B/C vs 3746A
Looks like a lower cost 3586. Documentations quite good its on the BAMA site and it uses the same board as the 3586 A22. Though the logic is slightly different for the two BFOs and would need to be figured out. Might require a inverter or not. Hard to say. But the dds would work. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Pete Lancashire p...@petelancashire.comwrote: I can't get to my HP catalogs and wonder if someone has a quick description/comments of/on the 3746A -pete ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available
Do you have any Option 030 (2 GHz) parts? Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]On Behalf Of Eric Haskell Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 2:09 PM To: Time Nuts Subject: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available A1-A6 board have been sold to a buyer in Brazil. The only logic bard I have left is the 05372-6008 (A8 I think). I still have cosmetic parts like the the front panel top bottom and sides. I have all the sheet metal internal stuff and all the power supply boards and the power transformer. I also have 2 54002A pods. Eric My 5372A fails Test 4, 'Input Amplifiers', with 'Input Bias Failure', 'Input Bias Test 6: MAX: 2172 (Min: 2172) [2191 2235]', and Test 6, 'Count ICs', with 'Count ICs Failed A3U37 and A3U42' and 'A3 U37, U42 chain FAILED --bad count [4.1902 mS gate] : 0029517C [001FF7FC]'. I am not sure what all that means but it would appear that the problem is on the A5, A4, or A3 board. Since Channel A is dead and Channel B works, A5 may be the culprit I would like to hear what boards you have to offer. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1498/3520 - Release Date: 03/21/11 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP-3586B SSB L.O. Mods...
Bert, This looks very interesting. Have you been able to determine the actual error between the receiver's tuned to frequency and the 1850.000.00 Hz audio tone error out of the receivers audio for upper and lower SSB? This could make a good group project kit. Burt, K6OQK Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:11:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Bert, VE2ZAZ ve2...@yahoo.ca To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: A solution Message-ID: 258386.19056...@web112008.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Everyone, I have spent the last few weeks modifying the HP 3586 Selective Level Meter. The intent was to modify the unit and reference the SSB product detector stage to the internal reference. This would make the entire SLM locked to the 10MHz reference, whether internal or externally fed. I have completed the modification with satisfactory results. I use a DDS-Based Function Generator 16-pin IC and a small 8-pin PIC micro. For more detail, visit my website at http://ve2zaz.net/HP3586_AD5962/HP3586_AD5962.htm . This has been a very good exercise from a DDS perspective and I have learned a lot on the topic. I would be interested in hearing from those who proceed with the mod. Thanks, Bert, VE2ZAZ Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP-3586B SSB L.O. Mods...
It can actually be calculated and it is in Berts tables. But last night I used spectrum lab and and could see the difference between usb worse case.5 Hz and LSB .3Hz. It was very stable no drifting at all while tuned to wwvb. But spectrum lab was not really optimized to give me better detail. Sub Hz res. Need to figure out how you would do that actually and maybe you simply can't. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net wrote: Bert, This looks very interesting. Have you been able to determine the actual error between the receiver's tuned to frequency and the 1850.000.00 Hz audio tone error out of the receivers audio for upper and lower SSB? This could make a good group project kit. Burt, K6OQK Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:11:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Bert, VE2ZAZ ve2...@yahoo.ca To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: A solution Message-ID: 258386.19056...@web112008.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Everyone, I have spent the last few weeks modifying the HP 3586 Selective Level Meter. The intent was to modify the unit and reference the SSB product detector stage to the internal reference. This would make the entire SLM locked to the 10MHz reference, whether internal or externally fed. I have completed the modification with satisfactory results. I use a DDS-Based Function Generator 16-pin IC and a small 8-pin PIC micro. For more detail, visit my website at http://ve2zaz.net/HP3586_AD5962/HP3586_AD5962.htm . This has been a very good exercise from a DDS perspective and I have learned a lot on the topic. I would be interested in hearing from those who proceed with the mod. Thanks, Bert, VE2ZAZ Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available
I've already purchased the eprom board. I'll try to upload them when I get the board. I got it as a spare, so I can compare the firmware versions. My current board is an early version. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. On 01/-10/-28163 02:59 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi One very useful piece of information to have - which eproms are they? There was a field upgrade of these and the 5371's in the early 90's. The upgrade added several commands and likely fixed some bugs. I *assume* the upgrade was an eprom switch out, but I have never verified that. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available
Howdy - I am interested in the bottom board and the power supply stuff - as well as the CRT and the CRT circuit board with flyback transformer. I don't necessarily need the pods. Wondered what you want for what is left and shipping to 67207 - Wichita, Ks - Dave Powers - KA0KCI From: Eric Haskell eric_hask...@hotmail.com To: Time Nuts time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Mon, March 21, 2011 2:08:44 PM Subject: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available A1-A6 board have been sold to a buyer in Brazil. The only logic bard I have left is the 05372-6008 (A8 I think). I still have cosmetic parts like the the front panel top bottom and sides. I have all the sheet metal internal stuff and all the power supply boards and the power transformer. I also have 2 54002A pods. Eric My 5372A fails Test 4, 'Input Amplifiers', with 'Input Bias Failure', 'Input Bias Test 6: MAX: 2172 (Min: 2172) [2191 2235]', and Test 6, 'Count ICs', with 'Count ICs Failed A3U37 and A3U42' and 'A3 U37, U42 chain FAILED --bad count [4.1902 mS gate] : 0029517C [001FF7FC]'. I am not sure what all that means but it would appear that the problem is on the A5, A4, or A3 board. Since Channel A is dead and Channel B works, A5 may be the culprit I would like to hear what boards you have to offer. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP-3586B SSB L.O. Mods...
Hi I forget exactly which programs do which, but there are some free spectrum analysis programs that will get you way into the sub-Hz resolution with an =8 KHz sample rate. Bob On Mar 21, 2011, at 5:44 PM, paul swed wrote: It can actually be calculated and it is in Berts tables. But last night I used spectrum lab and and could see the difference between usb worse case.5 Hz and LSB .3Hz. It was very stable no drifting at all while tuned to wwvb. But spectrum lab was not really optimized to give me better detail. Sub Hz res. Need to figure out how you would do that actually and maybe you simply can't. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net wrote: Bert, This looks very interesting. Have you been able to determine the actual error between the receiver's tuned to frequency and the 1850.000.00 Hz audio tone error out of the receivers audio for upper and lower SSB? This could make a good group project kit. Burt, K6OQK Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:11:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Bert, VE2ZAZ ve2...@yahoo.ca To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: A solution Message-ID: 258386.19056...@web112008.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Everyone, I have spent the last few weeks modifying the HP 3586 Selective Level Meter. The intent was to modify the unit and reference the SSB product detector stage to the internal reference. This would make the entire SLM locked to the 10MHz reference, whether internal or externally fed. I have completed the modification with satisfactory results. I use a DDS-Based Function Generator 16-pin IC and a small 8-pin PIC micro. For more detail, visit my website at http://ve2zaz.net/HP3586_AD5962/HP3586_AD5962.htm . This has been a very good exercise from a DDS perspective and I have learned a lot on the topic. I would be interested in hearing from those who proceed with the mod. Thanks, Bert, VE2ZAZ Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: Asolution
I liked this part: Initially, the intent was to use the MSBOUT (Most Significant Bit) output pin as the LO source. This would have been great since the output is TTL-leveled, exactly what the SLM phase detector is designed to work with. Unfortunately, this MSBOUT signal is not a clean square wave. There is some rollover in the DDS engine happening every few milliseconds, stretching the pulse repeatedly. This caused some modulated noise on the audio. Rejected. ... because I made the same mistake the first time I used an early commercial DDS part that required an outboard DAC. (Why would I need a $50 DAC chip? Those guys at Qualcomm must be morons. I'll just hang a low-pass filter off the MSB...) -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]On Behalf Of shali...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:32 AM To: Time-Nuts Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: Asolution Hi Bert, That is very interesting, thank you for sharing. Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: Bert, VE2ZAZ ve2...@yahoo.ca Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:11:04 To: time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: A solution Hello Everyone, I have spent the last few weeks modifying the HP 3586 Selective Level Meter. The intent was to modify the unit and reference the SSB product detector stage to the internal reference. This would make the entire SLM locked to the 10MHz reference, whether internal or externally fed. I have completed the modification with satisfactory results. I use a DDS-Based Function Generator 16-pin IC and a small 8-pin PIC micro. For more detail, visit my website at http://ve2zaz.net/HP3586_AD5962/HP3586_AD5962.htm . This has been a very good exercise from a DDS perspective and I have learned a lot on the topic. I would be interested in hearing from those who proceed with the mod. Thanks, Bert, VE2ZAZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: Asolution
Yeah; But sometimes there is some magic in the design of the LPF. Greg On 3/21/2011 5:51 PM, John Miles wrote: I liked this part: Initially, the intent was to use the MSBOUT (Most Significant Bit) output pin as the LO source. This would have been great since the output is TTL-leveled, exactly what the SLM phase detector is designed to work with. Unfortunately, this MSBOUT signal is not a clean square wave. There is some rollover in the DDS engine happening every few milliseconds, stretching the pulse repeatedly. This caused some modulated noise on the audio. Rejected. ... because I made the same mistake the first time I used an early commercial DDS part that required an outboard DAC. (Why would I need a $50 DAC chip? Those guys at Qualcomm must be morons. I'll just hang a low-pass filter off the MSB...) -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]On Behalf Of shali...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:32 AM To: Time-Nuts Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: Asolution Hi Bert, That is very interesting, thank you for sharing. Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: Bert, VE2ZAZve2...@yahoo.ca Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:11:04 To:time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: A solution Hello Everyone, I have spent the last few weeks modifying the HP 3586 Selective Level Meter. The intent was to modify the unit and reference the SSB product detector stage to the internal reference. This would make the entire SLM locked to the 10MHz reference, whether internal or externally fed. I have completed the modification with satisfactory results. I use a DDS-Based Function Generator 16-pin IC and a small 8-pin PIC micro. For more detail, visit my website at http://ve2zaz.net/HP3586_AD5962/HP3586_AD5962.htm . This has been a very good exercise from a DDS perspective and I have learned a lot on the topic. I would be interested in hearing from those who proceed with the mod. Thanks, Bert, VE2ZAZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available
Do you have any Option 030 (2 GHz) parts? Joe No the unit I stripped had NO options installed, not counting the 2 54002A pods. Eric ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: Asolution
Bert, I am curious to know what caused you and Paul to select the AD5932 device ? Admittedly, I haven't verified the Analog Devices simulator with real components, but I suspect their simulator is spot on or damn close. Using the Adsim page I looked at a few different DDSs to see what could be done. With little additional cost better choices are available allowing better on-frequency accuracy relative to the offset values of the AD5932. The problem with AD5932 is the frequency tuning word [FTW] is too small. So, clearly, increasing the FTW would give an immediate improvement as to accuracy. A simple low pass filter would clean up the spurs as they are all associated with the clock frequency and well removed from the fundamental signal. Some DDS selections included an uncommitted internal comparator stage (notably the 9834 and the 9851) that would serve well for squaring the signal after filtering. I ran simulations for two different DDS devices. I picked ones that operated off of 5 volts of which there is damn few good ones. The first one is the AD9834 with a 28 bit tuning word with a 10 MHz clock. Here are the results: 13775 = 13775.0059366226 Hz = error of +0.0059366226 14125 = 14124.9969601631 Hz = error of -0.0030398369 14275 = 14275.0144004822 Hz = error of +0.0144004822 16425 = 1642500.01311302 Hz = error of -0.0088095665 16625 = 1662500.01639128 Hz = error of +0.0020265579 16975 = 1697500.01281500 Hz = error of -0.0069499016 17125 = 1712500.00596046 Hz = error of +0.0104904175 17475 = 1747500.00238419 Hz = error of +0.0015139580 As you can see, with the additional 4 bit tuning word, the error improves for all except 17125 where it is equal. The second run was upping the frequency by 100 times to reduce the size of the filter components. For the AD9834, this did not turn out well at all. The wave form had a hard staircase appearance due to the low clock rate relationship (5:1) to the higher output frequency. The same problem exists for the AD9851. So, I scrapped that whole idea. The second run was using the AD9851 with a 32 bit tuning word with a 10 MHz clock. Here are the results: 13775 = 13774.9989517033 Hz = error of -0.0010482967 14125 = 14124.9992884696 Hz = error of -0.0007115304 14275 = 14275.0004306436 Hz = error of +0.0004306436 16425 = 16425.0005036592 Hz = error of +0.0005036592 16625 = 16624.9996982515 Hz = error of -0.0003017485 16975 = 16975.350177 Hz = error of +0.350177 17125 = 17124.9988488853 Hz = error of -0.0011511147 17475 = 17474.9991856515 Hz = error of -0.0008143485 As you can plainly see, increasing the tuning word by, yet, another 4 bits allowed for shifting the error further to the right. Maybe enough to put it beyond the resolution of the total measurement system and thus, perhaps, removing it from the systemic error list (i.e., less to worry about in the calculation). Unfortunately, Analog Devices has stopped producing some of their easier to use 48 bit DDS devices. The current run of 48 bit DDSs are way more complicated and specialized, have issues with the clocking methods (time nut unfriendly), besides using lower voltages, they are harder for the hobbyist to mount to a board and they are more expensive. Truly a sad circumstance for the occasional hobbyist. BillWB6BNQ Bert, VE2ZAZ wrote: Hello Everyone, I have spent the last few weeks modifying the HP 3586 Selective Level Meter. The intent was to modify the unit and reference the SSB product detector stage to the internal reference. This would make the entire SLM locked to the 10MHz reference, whether internal or externally fed. I have completed the modification with satisfactory results. I use a DDS-Based Function Generator 16-pin IC and a small 8-pin PIC micro. For more detail, visit my website at http://ve2zaz.net/HP3586_AD5962/HP3586_AD5962.htm . This has been a very good exercise from a DDS perspective and I have learned a lot on the topic. I would be interested in hearing from those who proceed with the mod. Thanks, Bert, VE2ZAZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available
Great I don't have one but I know the value of the eproms on this older gear and have been sending them to Diddiers site for others. Regards On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 6:03 PM, wje w...@quackers.net wrote: I've already purchased the eprom board. I'll try to upload them when I get the board. I got it as a spare, so I can compare the firmware versions. My current board is an early version. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. On 01/-10/-28163 02:59 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi One very useful piece of information to have - which eproms are they? There was a field upgrade of these and the 5371's in the early 90's. The upgrade added several commands and likely fixed some bugs. I *assume* the upgrade was an eprom switch out, but I have never verified that. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP-3586B SSB L.O. Mods...
Interesting because its going to be very hard for spec lab to do it. I experimented tonight and the results were not good. What I can say is the 3586 is stable to spec labs resolution. On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 7:43 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi I forget exactly which programs do which, but there are some free spectrum analysis programs that will get you way into the sub-Hz resolution with an =8 KHz sample rate. Bob On Mar 21, 2011, at 5:44 PM, paul swed wrote: It can actually be calculated and it is in Berts tables. But last night I used spectrum lab and and could see the difference between usb worse case.5 Hz and LSB .3Hz. It was very stable no drifting at all while tuned to wwvb. But spectrum lab was not really optimized to give me better detail. Sub Hz res. Need to figure out how you would do that actually and maybe you simply can't. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net wrote: Bert, This looks very interesting. Have you been able to determine the actual error between the receiver's tuned to frequency and the 1850.000.00 Hz audio tone error out of the receivers audio for upper and lower SSB? This could make a good group project kit. Burt, K6OQK Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:11:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Bert, VE2ZAZ ve2...@yahoo.ca To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: A solution Message-ID: 258386.19056...@web112008.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Everyone, I have spent the last few weeks modifying the HP 3586 Selective Level Meter. The intent was to modify the unit and reference the SSB product detector stage to the internal reference. This would make the entire SLM locked to the 10MHz reference, whether internal or externally fed. I have completed the modification with satisfactory results. I use a DDS-Based Function Generator 16-pin IC and a small 8-pin PIC micro. For more detail, visit my website at http://ve2zaz.net/HP3586_AD5962/HP3586_AD5962.htm. This has been a very good exercise from a DDS perspective and I have learned a lot on the topic. I would be interested in hearing from those who proceed with the mod. Thanks, Bert, VE2ZAZ Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: Asolution
Initially, the intent was to use the MSBOUT (Most Significant Bit) output pin as the LO source. This would have been great since the output is TTL-leveled, exactly what the SLM phase detector is designed to work with. Unfortunately, this MSBOUT signal is not a clean square wave. There is some rollover in the DDS engine happening every few milliseconds, stretching the pulse repeatedly. This caused some modulated noise on the audio. Rejected. Clock jitter is the time domain view of phase noise in the frequency domain. In this case, jitter by whole cycles is the time domain equivalent of spurs. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586A/B/C entirely referenced to 10MHz: Asolution
Using spectrum lab I can not detect a stability issue but its not really working at sub hertz resolution and not sure it really can. There are many DDS chips out there at various price ranges and difficulties. The AD5329 proves that the HP 3586 can be converted successfully and at sub $10 cost. Thanks Bert. Other issues to deal with 48 pin tsop packages etc. I had enough trouble with 10 pins on the AD5329 so serial interface is desirable. I am looking at the 9831 for a different use at $8. Must say technology is great. Regards Paul. On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 9:32 PM, WB6BNQ wb6...@cox.net wrote: Bert, I am curious to know what caused you and Paul to select the AD5932 device ? Admittedly, I haven't verified the Analog Devices simulator with real components, but I suspect their simulator is spot on or damn close. Using the Adsim page I looked at a few different DDS’s to see what could be done. With little additional cost better choices are available allowing better on-frequency accuracy relative to the offset values of the AD5932. The problem with AD5932 is the frequency tuning word [FTW] is too small. So, clearly, increasing the FTW would give an immediate improvement as to accuracy. A simple low pass filter would clean up the spurs as they are all associated with the clock frequency and well removed from the fundamental signal. Some DDS selections included an uncommitted internal comparator stage (notably the 9834 and the 9851) that would serve well for squaring the signal after filtering. I ran simulations for two different DDS devices. I picked ones that operated off of 5 volts of which there is damn few good ones. The first one is the AD9834 with a 28 bit tuning word with a 10 MHz clock. Here are the results: 13775 = 13775.0059366226 Hz = error of +0.0059366226 14125 = 14124.9969601631 Hz = error of -0.0030398369 14275 = 14275.0144004822 Hz = error of +0.0144004822 16425 = 1642500.01311302 Hz = error of -0.0088095665 16625 = 1662500.01639128 Hz = error of +0.0020265579 16975 = 1697500.01281500 Hz = error of -0.0069499016 17125 = 1712500.00596046 Hz = error of +0.0104904175 17475 = 1747500.00238419 Hz = error of +0.0015139580 As you can see, with the additional 4 bit tuning word, the error improves for all except 17125 where it is equal. The second run was upping the frequency by 100 times to reduce the size of the filter components. For the AD9834, this did not turn out well at all. The wave form had a hard staircase appearance due to the low clock rate relationship (5:1) to the higher output frequency. The same problem exists for the AD9851. So, I scrapped that whole idea. The second run was using the AD9851 with a 32 bit tuning word with a 10 MHz clock. Here are the results: 13775 = 13774.9989517033 Hz = error of -0.0010482967 14125 = 14124.9992884696 Hz = error of -0.0007115304 14275 = 14275.0004306436 Hz = error of +0.0004306436 16425 = 16425.0005036592 Hz = error of +0.0005036592 16625 = 16624.9996982515 Hz = error of -0.0003017485 16975 = 16975.350177 Hz = error of +0.350177 17125 = 17124.9988488853 Hz = error of -0.0011511147 17475 = 17474.9991856515 Hz = error of -0.0008143485 As you can plainly see, increasing the tuning word by, yet, another 4 bits allowed for shifting the error further to the right. Maybe enough to put it beyond the resolution of the total measurement system and thus, perhaps, removing it from the systemic error list (i.e., less to worry about in the calculation). Unfortunately, Analog Devices has stopped producing some of their easier to use 48 bit DDS devices. The current run of 48 bit DDS’s are way more complicated and specialized, have issues with the clocking methods (time nut unfriendly), besides using lower voltages, they are harder for the hobbyist to mount to a board and they are more expensive. Truly a sad circumstance for the occasional hobbyist. BillWB6BNQ Bert, VE2ZAZ wrote: Hello Everyone, I have spent the last few weeks modifying the HP 3586 Selective Level Meter. The intent was to modify the unit and reference the SSB product detector stage to the internal reference. This would make the entire SLM locked to the 10MHz reference, whether internal or externally fed. I have completed the modification with satisfactory results. I use a DDS-Based Function Generator 16-pin IC and a small 8-pin PIC micro. For more detail, visit my website at http://ve2zaz.net/HP3586_AD5962/HP3586_AD5962.htm . This has been a very good exercise from a DDS perspective and I have learned a lot on the topic. I would be interested in hearing from those who proceed with the mod. Thanks, Bert, VE2ZAZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
