Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

Rick wrote:


We also tried mounting the modified 10811 in Hammond metal box.
Initially, we mounted the 10811 to the box using the
two standoffs that come with the 10811.  However, this
degraded the performance somewhat.  We removed these and
had the 10811 supported mechanically only by the edge
connector.  With that change, it was as good as the cardboard
box.


I often mount OCXOs inside metal boxes with nylon or teflon standoffs 
(or resilient mounts, for some vibration isolation), with excellent 
results.  If tighter temperature control is needed (IME, it often is 
not), mount that box inside another box on thermally insulating 
standoffs and control the air temperature in the larger box with a 
thermostatically-controlled fan.  (The control should be set to no 
more than the maximum expected ambient temperature, or perhaps a bit 
lower, to preserve as much thermal differential for the oscillator 
oven as possible.)


Best regards,

Charles







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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[Don Latham]

Doesn't this package have a separate pin to provide voltage to the
antenna? It needs to be connected to the 5 volt supply...

Don Lewis
> Thanks, Bill, for the thoughts.
>
> I am running both the GPS and the antenna of the USB.  It shows
> ~4.9Volts.
>
> Maybe I need to use a separate power supply.
>
> There is 4.9V on the center terminal of the antenna connector.  Maybe I
> am
> current-limiting the USBbus.
>
> Thanks for the tips on the eBay antennas... I'll see if I need one.
>
> -Don
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of WB6BNQ
> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 7:28 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work
>
> Hi Don,
>
> Among the other comments presented it seems the presumed antenna current
> might be
> a little low compared to others.  That is, the additional 10 milliamps
> seems
> a
> little low for an active antenna.
>
> I would suggest trying to read the voltage on the antenna coax line to
> see
> if it
> is proper.  It is possible that the antenna is not working properly or
> it
> might
> not be an active antenna or it may not have enough gain.  In that case
> you
> would
> need another antenna to test that theory.  But you would need to have
> the
> antenna
> outside with good sky view and wait for 30 minutes or so to find out.
>
> I would suggest looking at a proper outside antenna like ones in eBay
> ADs #
> 270884223800 or # 130603281022.  A friend of mine bought one like these
> and
> had
> good luck with it.
>
> The fact that you can get data out of the GPS receiver would suggest
> that it
> is
> ok.  Good luck with your project.
>
> BillWB6BNQ
>
>
> Don Lewis wrote:
>
>> Can someone please give me some pointers (my first time with a GPS
> module).
>>
>>
>>
>> A little hand-holding, pls.
>>
>>
>>
>> I bought three of these Rockwell D200 GPS receivers. (It's little GPS
>> PWB
>> with an antenna connector and pins for connecting to the RS232- PC)
>>
>>
>>
>> All three 'appear' to work the same way (no apparent capture of
> satellites).
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's what I have:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.  VisualGPS installed and running.
>> 2.  A small USB-RS232 card installed and appears to be
>> operational.
>> 3.  Small GPS active antenna plugged in.
>> 4.  VisualGPS monitor just repeatedly displays:
>> $GPGGA,,0,00,,,*66
>> 5.  I think I understand this to be NMEA code to mean no
>> satellites
> have
>> been acquired.
>> 6.  The Rockwell D200 draws ~180ma (5V) with no antenna and ~190ma
> with
>> the small active antenna plugged in.
>>
>>
>>
>> What am I doing wrong?  Other than maybe cheap china gps' and
>> antenna???
>> But it is what I could afford and thought it would be cheap to learn
>> on.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your help.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> ___
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>


-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[Don Lewis]

Thanks, Paul.

How do you 'tell' them?

-Don









-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 8:56 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

Adding to all of the info indeed it does need to have a clear view.
Further say its been off along time and the battery is dead or never
existed it can take hours to acquire the first sat. Especially if date and
time have not been set.
I have recovered older GPS units by actually telling them what PRN to look
so they obtain the tables along with the date and time.
Yours may be far newer then my circa 1994-1998. Just some thoughts.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Don Lewis  wrote:

> Thanks, Hal.
>
> Tomorrow, I will take it all outside again and leave it, ...I only left it
> on the car for 5 minutes or so.
>
> My only other 'GPS' experience is my new Garmin for the car, ...it comes
up
> almost instantly.  Maybe I should take it apart!  :-)
>
> -Don
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Hal Murray
> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 7:29 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work
>
>
> dlewis6...@austin.rr.com said:
> > The antenna is currently on a shelf above my workbench, there is a
> > ceiling and an upstairs above it. Then the roof.
>
> > Is it very critical to be outside in order to 'see' the sky?
>
> > I did take it out once and set the antenna on my car roof, but still
> no
> > satellites.
>
> How long did you leave it on your car?
>
> There are two problems in this area.
>
> One is being able to hear the satellites.  There may not be enough signal
> at
>
> your workbench.  It depends upon how sensitive your receiver is.  Most of
> my
>
> newer GPS receivers work in my house.  Older ones work less well.
>
> The other problem is what frequency to listen to.  The satellites
broadcast
> the orbit parameters.  That lets a receiver calculate the frequency to
> listen
> on.  (The Doppler correction is important.)  In order to do that, you have
> to
> know the time.  That's why there is a pin for the backup power to the
> clock.
>
> Without knowing the time, the receiver has to do a brute force search
which
> takes a while.
>
> I would put it in the best location you can easily get to and wait a
while.
>
> It may take 15 minutes or longer.  I wouldn't get upset if it takes a half
> hour.
>
> Once you get it working outside, you can take it inside and see if it
still
> works.
>
> If you unplug it without the backup battery you will have to start over
> again.
>
> You can also just let it run overnight and see if that works.
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[paul swed]

Adding to all of the info indeed it does need to have a clear view.
Further say its been off along time and the battery is dead or never
existed it can take hours to acquire the first sat. Especially if date and
time have not been set.
I have recovered older GPS units by actually telling them what PRN to look
so they obtain the tables along with the date and time.
Yours may be far newer then my circa 1994-1998. Just some thoughts.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Don Lewis  wrote:

> Thanks, Hal.
>
> Tomorrow, I will take it all outside again and leave it, ...I only left it
> on the car for 5 minutes or so.
>
> My only other 'GPS' experience is my new Garmin for the car, ...it comes up
> almost instantly.  Maybe I should take it apart!  :-)
>
> -Don
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Hal Murray
> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 7:29 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work
>
>
> dlewis6...@austin.rr.com said:
> > The antenna is currently on a shelf above my workbench, there is a
> > ceiling and an upstairs above it. Then the roof.
>
> > Is it very critical to be outside in order to 'see' the sky?
>
> > I did take it out once and set the antenna on my car roof, but still
> no
> > satellites.
>
> How long did you leave it on your car?
>
> There are two problems in this area.
>
> One is being able to hear the satellites.  There may not be enough signal
> at
>
> your workbench.  It depends upon how sensitive your receiver is.  Most of
> my
>
> newer GPS receivers work in my house.  Older ones work less well.
>
> The other problem is what frequency to listen to.  The satellites broadcast
> the orbit parameters.  That lets a receiver calculate the frequency to
> listen
> on.  (The Doppler correction is important.)  In order to do that, you have
> to
> know the time.  That's why there is a pin for the backup power to the
> clock.
>
> Without knowing the time, the receiver has to do a brute force search which
> takes a while.
>
> I would put it in the best location you can easily get to and wait a while.
>
> It may take 15 minutes or longer.  I wouldn't get upset if it takes a half
> hour.
>
> Once you get it working outside, you can take it inside and see if it still
> works.
>
> If you unplug it without the backup battery you will have to start over
> again.
>
> You can also just let it run overnight and see if that works.
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Rick Karlquist]

Neville Michie wrote:

> I wonder if TVB knows what the brown foam in 10811 is? Does it have a
> radiation absorbing powder in it?
>
> cheers, Neville Michie
>

Various foams were tried and or used in the 10811.  The main
concerns with foams had nothing to do with insulating qualities
and certainly no one worried about radiation absorbing powder.
They wanted a foam that would not fatigue or disintegrate
mechanically.  It had to have good castability in the mold,
as the dimensions are fairly critical and the shape is intricate.
It could not outgas hazardous substances under normal oven
temperatures.  There was also an issue about what it would
do if the oven ran away.  It could not catch on fire, etc.
There are the usual manufacturability issues like cost, availability,
whether the vendor was "approved", etc.

In the E1938A, with a demonstrated thermal gain of over 1 million,
it was still the case that any foam or no foam worked fine thermally.
The most the foam could do is possibly change the ratio of heat
between the main surfaces and the rim.

There are minor differences in the amount of oven power for various
types of foams.  In general, it is fairly difficult to screw up
an oven oscillator by choosing the wrong foam.

Rick Karlquist
N6RK


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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Hal Murray]

> I wonder if Balsa wood would be suitable?  Like polystyrene foam,  only
> stronger and easy to glue. 

Another option would be cardboard.

Readily available, easy to cut.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Question re neutrinos and GPS

[Hal Murray]

> "The GPS is very unlikely to give an accurate speed for anything near the
> speed of light - for there are many known effects not taken into account by
> the  GPS protocol.  In the end the OPERA experiment may alert people to the
> assumptions and  approximations implicit in the GPS." 

I can't see anything sensible in there.


The whole reason that the result of this experiment is so interesting is 
because it doesn't make sense yet.


GPS has a long history of very accurate position and timing.

The first thing the early GPS experimental satellites did was verify 
relativity.  It was a wonderful experiment.

Surveyors routinely get cm accuracy.  Geologists use GPS to monitor plate 
motions.

National laboratories use GPS to compare their atomic clocks.  They argue 
about things like the temperature coefficient of the delay in antenna cables. 
 They also have to correct for the difference in elevation between the two 
sites, more relativity, blue shift as light falls farther down the gravity 
well.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[Don Lewis]

Thanks, Hal.  

Tomorrow, I will take it all outside again and leave it, ...I only left it
on the car for 5 minutes or so.

My only other 'GPS' experience is my new Garmin for the car, ...it comes up
almost instantly.  Maybe I should take it apart!  :-)

-Don




---






-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Hal Murray
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 7:29 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work


dlewis6...@austin.rr.com said:
> The antenna is currently on a shelf above my workbench, there is a
> ceiling and an upstairs above it. Then the roof.  

> Is it very critical to be outside in order to 'see' the sky?  

> I did take it out once and set the antenna on my car roof, but still
no
> satellites. 

How long did you leave it on your car?

There are two problems in this area.

One is being able to hear the satellites.  There may not be enough signal at

your workbench.  It depends upon how sensitive your receiver is.  Most of my

newer GPS receivers work in my house.  Older ones work less well.

The other problem is what frequency to listen to.  The satellites broadcast 
the orbit parameters.  That lets a receiver calculate the frequency to
listen 
on.  (The Doppler correction is important.)  In order to do that, you have
to 
know the time.  That's why there is a pin for the backup power to the clock.

Without knowing the time, the receiver has to do a brute force search which 
takes a while.

I would put it in the best location you can easily get to and wait a while.

It may take 15 minutes or longer.  I wouldn't get upset if it takes a half 
hour.

Once you get it working outside, you can take it inside and see if it still 
works.

If you unplug it without the backup battery you will have to start over
again.

You can also just let it run overnight and see if that works.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Neville Michie]

"Insulation" of an object to reduce heat transfer has three main  
components.
Convection, the movement of air which carries heat from place to  
place, this is easily reduced by
small cell (less than 5mm) structures, below this size thermal  
convective circulation does not occur.
Conduction, this is reduced by making the cross-section of any solid  
material very small, the length great

and by choosing a low conductivity material.
Thermal Radiation is very significant, and as many materials are  
transparent to long wave (10 micron)
radiation it is important to design for it. A low emmissivity (very  
shiny) surface reduces radiative transfer,
but shiny surfaces usually tarnish with time. A non transparent  
barrier, like metal foil, will stop radiation,
but the foil will heat up and re-radiate. If you have a setup with  
two parallel metal plates, a certain
amount of heat is transferred which does not change with increasing  
distance. If you add an intermediate
plate, it will heat to half the temperature difference,and as each  
plate sees half the temperature difference
only half the heat is transmitted. So on to 10 layers where only one  
tenth of the heat is transmitted.
So if you want to use polymer foam, make it in thin layers with a  
very thin layer of foil between each layer.
Balsa wood sounds as if it could be good, because it will have  
distributed absorbers of radiation
throughout it, equivalent to many layers of foil, and its conduction  
is low because it is mainly air.
I wonder if TVB knows what the brown foam in 10811 is? Does it have a  
radiation absorbing powder in it?


cheers, Neville Michie


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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[Don Lewis]

Thanks, Bill, for the thoughts.

I am running both the GPS and the antenna of the USB.  It shows ~4.9Volts.

Maybe I need to use a separate power supply.

There is 4.9V on the center terminal of the antenna connector.  Maybe I am
current-limiting the USBbus.

Thanks for the tips on the eBay antennas... I'll see if I need one.

-Don



--




-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of WB6BNQ
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 7:28 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

Hi Don,

Among the other comments presented it seems the presumed antenna current
might be
a little low compared to others.  That is, the additional 10 milliamps seems
a
little low for an active antenna.

I would suggest trying to read the voltage on the antenna coax line to see
if it
is proper.  It is possible that the antenna is not working properly or it
might
not be an active antenna or it may not have enough gain.  In that case you
would
need another antenna to test that theory.  But you would need to have the
antenna
outside with good sky view and wait for 30 minutes or so to find out.

I would suggest looking at a proper outside antenna like ones in eBay ADs #
270884223800 or # 130603281022.  A friend of mine bought one like these and
had
good luck with it.

The fact that you can get data out of the GPS receiver would suggest that it
is
ok.  Good luck with your project.

BillWB6BNQ


Don Lewis wrote:

> Can someone please give me some pointers (my first time with a GPS
module).
>
>
>
> A little hand-holding, pls.
>
>
>
> I bought three of these Rockwell D200 GPS receivers. (It's little GPS PWB
> with an antenna connector and pins for connecting to the RS232- PC)
>
>
>
> All three 'appear' to work the same way (no apparent capture of
satellites).
>
>
>
> Here's what I have:
>
>
>
> 1.  VisualGPS installed and running.
> 2.  A small USB-RS232 card installed and appears to be operational.
> 3.  Small GPS active antenna plugged in.
> 4.  VisualGPS monitor just repeatedly displays:
> $GPGGA,,0,00,,,*66
> 5.  I think I understand this to be NMEA code to mean no satellites
have
> been acquired.
> 6.  The Rockwell D200 draws ~180ma (5V) with no antenna and ~190ma
with
> the small active antenna plugged in.
>
>
>
> What am I doing wrong?  Other than maybe cheap china gps' and antenna???
> But it is what I could afford and thought it would be cheap to learn on.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
>
>
> -Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
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> and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Chris Albertson]

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 2:50 PM,   wrote:
>  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal
> transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.
>
> Are you sure it is not thermal mass that needs to be increased and not just
> insulation?

The trouble is that if your insulation is good, the temperature will
raise without limit.  Some how you have to let the heat out.  Either
use poor insulation like the cardboard box or the pile of concrete
blocks.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[Hal Murray]

dlewis6...@austin.rr.com said:
> The antenna is currently on a shelf above my workbench, there is a
> ceiling and an upstairs above it. Then the roof.  

> Is it very critical to be outside in order to 'see' the sky?  

> I did take it out once and set the antenna on my car roof, but still no
> satellites. 

How long did you leave it on your car?

There are two problems in this area.

One is being able to hear the satellites.  There may not be enough signal at 
your workbench.  It depends upon how sensitive your receiver is.  Most of my 
newer GPS receivers work in my house.  Older ones work less well.

The other problem is what frequency to listen to.  The satellites broadcast 
the orbit parameters.  That lets a receiver calculate the frequency to listen 
on.  (The Doppler correction is important.)  In order to do that, you have to 
know the time.  That's why there is a pin for the backup power to the clock.  
Without knowing the time, the receiver has to do a brute force search which 
takes a while.

I would put it in the best location you can easily get to and wait a while.  
It may take 15 minutes or longer.  I wouldn't get upset if it takes a half 
hour.

Once you get it working outside, you can take it inside and see if it still 
works.

If you unplug it without the backup battery you will have to start over again.

You can also just let it run overnight and see if that works.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[WB6BNQ]

Hi Don,

Among the other comments presented it seems the presumed antenna current might 
be
a little low compared to others.  That is, the additional 10 milliamps seems a
little low for an active antenna.

I would suggest trying to read the voltage on the antenna coax line to see if it
is proper.  It is possible that the antenna is not working properly or it might
not be an active antenna or it may not have enough gain.  In that case you would
need another antenna to test that theory.  But you would need to have the 
antenna
outside with good sky view and wait for 30 minutes or so to find out.

I would suggest looking at a proper outside antenna like ones in eBay ADs #
270884223800 or # 130603281022.  A friend of mine bought one like these and had
good luck with it.

The fact that you can get data out of the GPS receiver would suggest that it is
ok.  Good luck with your project.

BillWB6BNQ


Don Lewis wrote:

> Can someone please give me some pointers (my first time with a GPS module).
>
>
>
> A little hand-holding, pls.
>
>
>
> I bought three of these Rockwell D200 GPS receivers. (It's little GPS PWB
> with an antenna connector and pins for connecting to the RS232- PC)
>
>
>
> All three 'appear' to work the same way (no apparent capture of satellites).
>
>
>
> Here's what I have:
>
>
>
> 1.  VisualGPS installed and running.
> 2.  A small USB-RS232 card installed and appears to be operational.
> 3.  Small GPS active antenna plugged in.
> 4.  VisualGPS monitor just repeatedly displays:
> $GPGGA,,0,00,,,*66
> 5.  I think I understand this to be NMEA code to mean no satellites have
> been acquired.
> 6.  The Rockwell D200 draws ~180ma (5V) with no antenna and ~190ma with
> the small active antenna plugged in.
>
>
>
> What am I doing wrong?  Other than maybe cheap china gps' and antenna???
> But it is what I could afford and thought it would be cheap to learn on.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
>
>
> -Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[David]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:08:18 -0500, Joe Gwinn 
wrote:

>At 10:15 PM + 1/6/12, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
>>Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:41:13 -0600
>>From: David 
>>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>  
>>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?
>>Message-ID: 
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>>I completely forgot about those two.  [Balsa wood and foam-in=place 
>>urethane foam]
>>
>>I have a good local hobby shop
>>with large pieces of balsa wood but I suspect it would be more
>>expensive than good quality expanded polystyrene bead sheet.  I will
>>have to check out foam board next time.  Both would be more difficult
>>to cut without a hot wire knife.
>
>Balsa wood cuts very easily with a sharp knife, glues very well with 
>carpenters' glue, and will not degrade over time.
>
>Joe Gwinn

My fault there.  I meant "with" obviously and my spell checker does
not check logic. :)

A hot wire knife makes it easy to cut and shape irregular curves and
surfaces without being inundated with sanding debris.

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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[k4...@aol.com]

Make sure you have a DC voltage (3 or 5 volts depending on your antenna LNA  
requirements) on the center lead coax line.  Those old Rockwell receivers  
are slow to acquire sats compared to todays modern receivers so give it 15  
minutes or more when you have your setup with a good clear view of the sky.



Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

-Original message-
From: Don Lewis 
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'  


Sent: Sat, Jan 7, 2012 00:24:28 GMT+00:00
Subject: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

Can someone please give me some pointers (my first time with a GPS module).



A little hand-holding, pls.



I bought three of these Rockwell D200 GPS receivers. (It's little GPS PWB
with an antenna connector and pins for connecting to the RS232- PC)



All three 'appear' to work the same way (no apparent capture of satellites).



Here's what I have:



1.  VisualGPS installed and running.
2.  A small USB-RS232 card installed and appears to be operational.
3.  Small GPS active antenna plugged in.
4.  VisualGPS monitor just repeatedly displays:
$GPGGA,,0,00,,,*66
5.  I think I understand this to be NMEA code to mean no satellites have
been acquired.
6.  The Rockwell D200 draws ~180ma (5V) with no antenna and ~190ma with
the small active antenna plugged in.



What am I doing wrong?  Other than maybe cheap china gps' and antenna???
But it is what I could afford and thought it would be cheap to learn on.



Thanks for your help.



-Don







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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[Azelio Boriani]

Absolutely yes, the antenna must see the sky, not the ceiling. Even very
sensitive GPS receivers must have a good view of the sky for the first fix,
then you can bring the antenna indoor. You can try positioning the antenna
very near a window for just a test but better a good view. The car roof is
okay but you must wait several minutes (12 minutes at most) to let the
receiver download the almanac.

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:54 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:

> Maybe I didn't take positioning seriously.
>
> The antenna is currently on a shelf above my workbench, there is a
> ceiling and an upstairs above it. Then the roof.
>
> Is it very critical to be outside in order to 'see' the sky?
>
> I did take it out once and set the antenna on my car roof, but still no
> satellites.
>
>
> -Don
>
>
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of bownes
> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 6:49 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work
>
> Step one...is the antenna in a location where it can see they sky?
>
> Sorry if it is a stupid question but you already said it was plugged in. :)
>
>
>
> On Jan 6, 2012, at 19:24, "Don Lewis"  wrote:
>
> > Can someone please give me some pointers (my first time with a GPS
> module).
> >
> >
> >
> > A little hand-holding, pls.
> >
> >
> >
> > I bought three of these Rockwell D200 GPS receivers. (It's little GPS PWB
> > with an antenna connector and pins for connecting to the RS232- PC)
> >
> >
> >
> > All three 'appear' to work the same way (no apparent capture of
> satellites).
> >
> >
> >
> > Here's what I have:
> >
> >
> >
> > 1.VisualGPS installed and running.
> > 2.A small USB-RS232 card installed and appears to be operational.
> > 3.Small GPS active antenna plugged in.
> > 4.VisualGPS monitor just repeatedly displays:
> > $GPGGA,,0,00,,,*66
> > 5.I think I understand this to be NMEA code to mean no satellites
> have
> > been acquired.
> > 6.The Rockwell D200 draws ~180ma (5V) with no antenna and ~190ma with
> > the small active antenna plugged in.
> >
> >
> >
> > What am I doing wrong?  Other than maybe cheap china gps' and antenna???
> > But it is what I could afford and thought it would be cheap to learn on.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your help.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Don
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[bownes]

It will certainly help to have visible sky and a metal ground plane. I have 
mine in a skylight in my office and they still only 'see' about half of the sky 
due to the slope of the skylight and living on the south side of a hill. 

So, putting one where it actually can see the sky and letting it sit for 20-60 
minutes would tell you something more. 


On Jan 6, 2012, at 19:54, "Don Lewis"  wrote:

> Maybe I didn't take positioning seriously.  
> 
> The antenna is currently on a shelf above my workbench, there is a
> ceiling and an upstairs above it. Then the roof.  
> 
> Is it very critical to be outside in order to 'see' the sky?  
> 
> I did take it out once and set the antenna on my car roof, but still no
> satellites.
> 
> 
> -Don
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of bownes
> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 6:49 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work
> 
> Step one...is the antenna in a location where it can see they sky?
> 
> Sorry if it is a stupid question but you already said it was plugged in. :)
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 6, 2012, at 19:24, "Don Lewis"  wrote:
> 
>> Can someone please give me some pointers (my first time with a GPS
> module).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> A little hand-holding, pls.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I bought three of these Rockwell D200 GPS receivers. (It's little GPS PWB
>> with an antenna connector and pins for connecting to the RS232- PC)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> All three 'appear' to work the same way (no apparent capture of
> satellites).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Here's what I have:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 1.VisualGPS installed and running.
>> 2.A small USB-RS232 card installed and appears to be operational.
>> 3.Small GPS active antenna plugged in.
>> 4.VisualGPS monitor just repeatedly displays:
>> $GPGGA,,0,00,,,*66
>> 5.I think I understand this to be NMEA code to mean no satellites have
>> been acquired.
>> 6.The Rockwell D200 draws ~180ma (5V) with no antenna and ~190ma with
>> the small active antenna plugged in.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> What am I doing wrong?  Other than maybe cheap china gps' and antenna???
>> But it is what I could afford and thought it would be cheap to learn on.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks for your help.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Don
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
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> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[Don Lewis]

Maybe I didn't take positioning seriously.  

The antenna is currently on a shelf above my workbench, there is a
ceiling and an upstairs above it. Then the roof.  

Is it very critical to be outside in order to 'see' the sky?  

I did take it out once and set the antenna on my car roof, but still no
satellites.


-Don





-



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of bownes
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 6:49 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

Step one...is the antenna in a location where it can see they sky?

Sorry if it is a stupid question but you already said it was plugged in. :)



On Jan 6, 2012, at 19:24, "Don Lewis"  wrote:

> Can someone please give me some pointers (my first time with a GPS
module).
> 
> 
> 
> A little hand-holding, pls.
> 
> 
> 
> I bought three of these Rockwell D200 GPS receivers. (It's little GPS PWB
> with an antenna connector and pins for connecting to the RS232- PC)
> 
> 
> 
> All three 'appear' to work the same way (no apparent capture of
satellites).
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what I have:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.VisualGPS installed and running.
> 2.A small USB-RS232 card installed and appears to be operational.
> 3.Small GPS active antenna plugged in.
> 4.VisualGPS monitor just repeatedly displays:
> $GPGGA,,0,00,,,*66
> 5.I think I understand this to be NMEA code to mean no satellites have
> been acquired.
> 6.The Rockwell D200 draws ~180ma (5V) with no antenna and ~190ma with
> the small active antenna plugged in.
> 
> 
> 
> What am I doing wrong?  Other than maybe cheap china gps' and antenna???
> But it is what I could afford and thought it would be cheap to learn on.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> 
> 
> -Don
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[bownes]

Step one...is the antenna in a location where it can see they sky?

Sorry if it is a stupid question but you already said it was plugged in. :)



On Jan 6, 2012, at 19:24, "Don Lewis"  wrote:

> Can someone please give me some pointers (my first time with a GPS module).
> 
> 
> 
> A little hand-holding, pls.
> 
> 
> 
> I bought three of these Rockwell D200 GPS receivers. (It's little GPS PWB
> with an antenna connector and pins for connecting to the RS232- PC)
> 
> 
> 
> All three 'appear' to work the same way (no apparent capture of satellites).
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what I have:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.VisualGPS installed and running.
> 2.A small USB-RS232 card installed and appears to be operational.
> 3.Small GPS active antenna plugged in.
> 4.VisualGPS monitor just repeatedly displays:
> $GPGGA,,0,00,,,*66
> 5.I think I understand this to be NMEA code to mean no satellites have
> been acquired.
> 6.The Rockwell D200 draws ~180ma (5V) with no antenna and ~190ma with
> the small active antenna plugged in.
> 
> 
> 
> What am I doing wrong?  Other than maybe cheap china gps' and antenna???
> But it is what I could afford and thought it would be cheap to learn on.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> 
> 
> -Don
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[lists]

Maybe support the osc on beads of RTV. That would both break the thermal path 
and provide a little shock (vibration) isolation. 

Some notebook PCs mount the hard drive in gel for shock. 

-Original Message-
From: Malcolm 
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:34:37 
To: 
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

I would recommend and have used 1/4 inch polystyrene foam that is available in 
roll form from DIY stores and either glue or double sided tape.  It is easily 
workable and cheap and achieves what you want.  There is a caveat in that you 
should also use nylon or other (heat) insulating washers and nylon nuts and 
bolts to attach the oven to the case.  Otherwise you will loose heat through 
conduction and introduce cold spots to the oven

Regards

Malcolm
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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[Don Lewis]

Thank you, ...Azelio, 

I hooked them up, using this site.

Maybe they are all bad. hope not.

-Don


---





-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Azelio Boriani
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 6:30 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

Try this: http://ke6mto.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/gps2a.pdf
but forst here: http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/20164


On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:

> Can someone please give me some pointers (my first time with a GPS
module).
>
>
>
> A little hand-holding, pls.
>
>
>
> I bought three of these Rockwell D200 GPS receivers. (It's little GPS PWB
> with an antenna connector and pins for connecting to the RS232- PC)
>
>
>
> All three 'appear' to work the same way (no apparent capture of
> satellites).
>
>
>
> Here's what I have:
>
>
>
> 1.  VisualGPS installed and running.
> 2.  A small USB-RS232 card installed and appears to be operational.
> 3.  Small GPS active antenna plugged in.
> 4.  VisualGPS monitor just repeatedly displays:
> $GPGGA,,0,00,,,*66
> 5.  I think I understand this to be NMEA code to mean no satellites
> have
> been acquired.
> 6.  The Rockwell D200 draws ~180ma (5V) with no antenna and ~190ma
with
> the small active antenna plugged in.
>
>
>
> What am I doing wrong?  Other than maybe cheap china gps' and antenna???
> But it is what I could afford and thought it would be cheap to learn on.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
>
>
> -Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Malcolm]

I would recommend and have used 1/4 inch polystyrene foam that is available in 
roll form from DIY stores and either glue or double sided tape.  It is easily 
workable and cheap and achieves what you want.  There is a caveat in that you 
should also use nylon or other (heat) insulating washers and nylon nuts and 
bolts to attach the oven to the case.  Otherwise you will loose heat through 
conduction and introduce cold spots to the oven

Regards

Malcolm
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Re: [time-nuts] Question re neutrinos and GPS

[Azelio Boriani]

...I cannot find that weird text using Google...
Antonio, ti ricordi il tunnel della Gelmini? Ecco e' la stessa cosa!

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:30 AM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

> And let me say this in italian: Antonio, ma chi ha detto 'sta fesseria?
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Azelio Boriani 
> wrote:
>
>> Amen.
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Mike S  wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/6/2012 6:20 PM, iov...@inwind.it wrote:
>>>
>>>  Now I read on another list, in which the subject is not timekeeping and
 from a
 respectable author, that:

 "The GPS is very unlikely to give an accurate speed for anything near
 the
 speed of light.."

>>>
>>> Respectable author? What, does he think they're strapping Garmins to
>>> neutrinos to measure their speed? His statement is simply ignorant.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Question re neutrinos and GPS

[Azelio Boriani]

And let me say this in italian: Antonio, ma chi ha detto 'sta fesseria?

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

> Amen.
>
> On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Mike S  wrote:
>
>> On 1/6/2012 6:20 PM, iov...@inwind.it wrote:
>>
>>  Now I read on another list, in which the subject is not timekeeping and
>>> from a
>>> respectable author, that:
>>>
>>> "The GPS is very unlikely to give an accurate speed for anything near the
>>> speed of light.."
>>>
>>
>> Respectable author? What, does he think they're strapping Garmins to
>> neutrinos to measure their speed? His statement is simply ignorant.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[Azelio Boriani]

Try this: http://ke6mto.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/gps2a.pdf
but forst here: http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/20164


On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:

> Can someone please give me some pointers (my first time with a GPS module).
>
>
>
> A little hand-holding, pls.
>
>
>
> I bought three of these Rockwell D200 GPS receivers. (It's little GPS PWB
> with an antenna connector and pins for connecting to the RS232- PC)
>
>
>
> All three 'appear' to work the same way (no apparent capture of
> satellites).
>
>
>
> Here's what I have:
>
>
>
> 1.  VisualGPS installed and running.
> 2.  A small USB-RS232 card installed and appears to be operational.
> 3.  Small GPS active antenna plugged in.
> 4.  VisualGPS monitor just repeatedly displays:
> $GPGGA,,0,00,,,*66
> 5.  I think I understand this to be NMEA code to mean no satellites
> have
> been acquired.
> 6.  The Rockwell D200 draws ~180ma (5V) with no antenna and ~190ma with
> the small active antenna plugged in.
>
>
>
> What am I doing wrong?  Other than maybe cheap china gps' and antenna???
> But it is what I could afford and thought it would be cheap to learn on.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
>
>
> -Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Question re neutrinos and GPS

[Azelio Boriani]

Amen.

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Mike S  wrote:

> On 1/6/2012 6:20 PM, iov...@inwind.it wrote:
>
>  Now I read on another list, in which the subject is not timekeeping and
>> from a
>> respectable author, that:
>>
>> "The GPS is very unlikely to give an accurate speed for anything near the
>> speed of light.."
>>
>
> Respectable author? What, does he think they're strapping Garmins to
> neutrinos to measure their speed? His statement is simply ignorant.
>
>
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[time-nuts] Getting my Rockwell D200 GPS to work

[Don Lewis]

Can someone please give me some pointers (my first time with a GPS module).

 

A little hand-holding, pls.

 

I bought three of these Rockwell D200 GPS receivers. (It's little GPS PWB
with an antenna connector and pins for connecting to the RS232- PC)

 

All three 'appear' to work the same way (no apparent capture of satellites).

 

Here's what I have:

 

1.  VisualGPS installed and running.
2.  A small USB-RS232 card installed and appears to be operational.
3.  Small GPS active antenna plugged in.
4.  VisualGPS monitor just repeatedly displays:
$GPGGA,,0,00,,,*66
5.  I think I understand this to be NMEA code to mean no satellites have
been acquired.
6.  The Rockwell D200 draws ~180ma (5V) with no antenna and ~190ma with
the small active antenna plugged in.

 

What am I doing wrong?  Other than maybe cheap china gps' and antenna???
But it is what I could afford and thought it would be cheap to learn on.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

-Don

 

 

 

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Bob Smither]

John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
> I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local
> source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a
> sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal
> transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.

A friend is diabetic.  He gets his insulin mailed to him in foam "ice boxes"
that are 9"x11" outside, 6"x8" inside, with a lipped lid that fits snugly.

I have an OCXO in one such box.  The FE-5680A would fit, but as I don't really
know what the case temperature should be I am hesitant to try this.  Maybe if I
get a spare ...

-- 
Bob Smither, PhD   Circuit Concepts, Inc.
=
  "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but
  because of those who look on and do nothing".
-- Albert Einstein
=
smit...@c-c-i.com  http://www.C-C-I.Com  281-331-2744(office)  -4616(fax)
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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Joe Gwinn]

At 10:15 PM + 1/6/12, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:41:13 -0600
From: David 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I completely forgot about those two.  [Balsa wood and foam-in=place 
urethane foam]


I have a good local hobby shop
with large pieces of balsa wood but I suspect it would be more
expensive than good quality expanded polystyrene bead sheet.  I will
have to check out foam board next time.  Both would be more difficult
to cut without a hot wire knife.


Balsa wood cuts very easily with a sharp knife, glues very well with 
carpenters' glue, and will not degrade over time.


Joe Gwinn

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Re: [time-nuts] Question re neutrinos and GPS

[Mike S]

On 1/6/2012 6:20 PM, iov...@inwind.it wrote:


Now I read on another list, in which the subject is not timekeeping and from a
respectable author, that:

"The GPS is very unlikely to give an accurate speed for anything near the
speed of light.."


Respectable author? What, does he think they're strapping Garmins to 
neutrinos to measure their speed? His statement is simply ignorant.


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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Mark Spencer]

As an additional data point..

When experimenting with various forms of insulation for a thunderbolt board I 
found that a corrugated carboard box provided a noticeable decrease in 
temperature fluctuations while limiting the overall temperature rise.   Even 
small ammounts of additional insulation (ie. a few layers of thin flexible foam 
sheets maybe 2 mm thick used for wraping items for shipment) caused the 
temperature as reported by the thunderbolt to increase signficantly.  (Maybe 15 
Deg C IIRC ?)




--- On Fri, 1/6/12, Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> From: Magnus Danielson 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Received: Friday, January 6, 2012, 6:10 PM
> Rick,
> 
> On 01/06/2012 10:14 PM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
> > John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
> >> I am looking for a readily available (from Home
> Depot or other local
> >> source) insulating material to use in a chassis
> that's housing a
> >> sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down
> any external thermal
> >> transients so the oven loop has time to react
> gracefully.
> > 
> > Before making this into a science project, consider
> this data
> > point:  We converted the oscillator in a 10811 to
> run in mode
> > B at 10.95 MHz.  The tempco in mode B is about 30
> ppm per degree
> > C.  Needless to say, the converted 10811 was
> extremely sensitive
> > to crystal temperature.  I could wave my hands
> around it and notice
> > the temperature change from the air currents. 
> However, simply
> > putting the 10811 into a small empty cardboard box
> completely
> > solved this problem.  No rocket science
> necessary.  So in the
> > short term, this simple box was like a double
> oven.  Of course,
> > in the long run, the 10811 thermal gain is only 1000
> or so and
> > you can see the effect of the HVAC shutting down at
> 7PM, etc.
> 
> This is essentially what I've found quite useful at many
> times, quick air fluctuations affects crystals pretty good
> but just blocking the air helps to slow down things.
> Long-term creeps through but is not on the same scale.
> 
> A large enough cardboard box will leak over-temperature
> such that the oven keeps working.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Question re neutrinos and GPS

[Tom Van Baak]

Now I read on another list, in which the subject is not timekeeping and from a 
respectable author, that:


"The GPS is very unlikely to give an accurate speed for anything near the 
speed of light - for there are many known effects not taken into account by the 
GPS protocol. 
In the end the OPERA experiment may alert people to the assumptions and 
approximations implicit in the GPS."


This wrongfooted me. So please, does the above quoted statement have any 
meaning for time-nuts? Don't answer "ask the author of the statement" please, I 
would like to hear the opinion of time-nuts.


Antonio,

It's hard to respond to the vague statement by the author. If there
are "many known effects not taken into account" it would be more
instructive for the author to list each. You can send me the URL
off-line if you wish.

More to the point, GPS is not used in OPERA for anything involving
speed. It is simply used for common view calibration of stationary
clocks and fixed antennae at both sites. I mean, it's not like someone
is strapping a Garmin on a passing neutrino and reading its velocity
in flight.

One thing to keep in mind is that the OPERA experiment is not the
first to ever use GPS for precision timekeeping. There are a couple
of decades and thousands of examples of GPS working quite well
at the nanosecond level, across small and large baselines, etc. So
even if some professor makes a good case for GPS being wrong
for the OPERA experiment they also have to explain why this has not
affected every other use of satellite-based precision timing in the past.

Hopefully all this GPS-neutrino talk will calm down when other methods
to validate the synchronization of the clocks at CERN and LNGS are
done (e.g., direct fiber or traveling Cs clocks).

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] Question re neutrinos and GPS

[Jim Lux]

On 1/6/12 3:20 PM, iov...@inwind.it wrote:

So far it seemed to me that the overall standpoint of the authoritative time-
nuts list is that the GPS timing and geografical survey of the OPERA experiment
are good (and hence experimental errors or artifacts, if any, should be
searched for elsewhere).

I myself, not being a deep GPS expert, joined this standpoint with confidence
(but indeed I could have been affected by a sentimental bias).

Now I read on another list, in which the subject is not timekeeping and from a
respectable author, that:

"The GPS is very unlikely to give an accurate speed for anything near the
speed of light - for there are many known effects not taken into account by the
GPS protocol.
In the end the OPERA experiment may alert people to the assumptions and
approximations implicit in the GPS."

This wrongfooted me. So please, does the above quoted statement have any
meaning for time-nuts? Don't answer "ask the author of the statement" please, I
would like to hear the opinion of time-nuts.




GPS was used as part of the surveying tools to determine the distance, 
and is as good as anything else out there.  They had to transfer the 
measured position outside down into the tunnels by conventional optical 
surveying, I should imagine.


GPS was also used as a common view time transfer (between Cs clocks at 
each end). And, a traveling clock was used as well.


There have been statements about "GPS doesn't account for relativistic 
effects", which of course, is not true. GPS satellites move more than 
fast enough that if they didn't account for relativistic effects (0.2ppb 
frequency error, for instance), you couldn't do the nav computation. 
But it's actually not relevant for the discussion here.



So we have a very accurately measured distance.  It could have been 
measured by other means: conventional surveying and triangulation, for 
instance, or astronomical methods.


And we have clocks at each end that are synchronized.

The actual velocity measurement is done by dividing measured distance by 
measured time (with GPS not actually involved in the measurement).


Now, one could raise issues about whether the particles are following 
the path that's been measured, but that's different than saying "GPS 
isn't accurate for surveying".


There, could, after all, be some sort of magic naked singularity with 
negative mass that warps spacetime so that the Euclidean straight line 
(the surveyed path) isn't actually the shortest path.  (I'm not sure 
this could actually exist.. But I was thinking of the "rubber sheet with 
a weight" conceptual 2D model of gravitationally curved space)





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Re: [time-nuts] Question re neutrinos and GPS

[Magnus Danielson]

On 01/07/2012 12:37 AM, b...@lysator.liu.se wrote:

Hi Antonio,


"The GPS is very unlikely to give an accurate speed for anything near the
speed of light - for there are many known effects not taken into account
by the GPS protocol.
In the end the OPERA experiment may alert people to the assumptions and
approximations implicit in the GPS."

This wrongfooted me. So please, does the above quoted statement have any
meaning for time-nuts? Don't answer "ask the author of the statement"
please, I
would like to hear the opinion of time-nuts.


In what way is GPS measuring the speed of the neutrions directly? It is
not that you have a GPS receiver riding the neutrions from the starting
site to the finish site... ;-)

The GPS receivers are syncing the reference clocks at both the sites. GPS
can be used for time/freq transfer, and is a well established tool for
that.

I fail to see the meaning of the quoted statement.


It would be quite a fabulous GPS receiver, made up entirely of 
neutrinos, which would be physically meaningless since the neutrinos 
does not couple to the GPS signal's photons... especially when being 
underground throughout the full stretch of the experiment.


Producing even minuscule amounts of neutrinos takes up quite a lot of 
energy, to say the least.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Question re neutrinos and GPS

[Magnus Danielson]

Antonio,

On 01/07/2012 12:20 AM, iov...@inwind.it wrote:

So far it seemed to me that the overall standpoint of the authoritative time-
nuts list is that the GPS timing and geografical survey of the OPERA experiment
are good (and hence experimental errors or artifacts, if any, should be
searched for elsewhere).

I myself, not being a deep GPS expert, joined this standpoint with confidence
(but indeed I could have been affected by a sentimental bias).

Now I read on another list, in which the subject is not timekeeping and from a
respectable author, that:

"The GPS is very unlikely to give an accurate speed for anything near the
speed of light - for there are many known effects not taken into account by the
GPS protocol.
In the end the OPERA experiment may alert people to the assumptions and
approximations implicit in the GPS."

This wrongfooted me. So please, does the above quoted statement have any
meaning for time-nuts? Don't answer "ask the author of the statement" please, I
would like to hear the opinion of time-nuts.


It's a lot of hand-waving going around in that statement.

Let's recall some facts:

1) GPS is not used itself to measure the speed of neutrinos. It is used 
to provide the timing of the two labs. See the OPERA article.


2) A number of relativistic effects is being compensated for in the GPS 
system, of which many is not seen to the ordinary user at first glaze. 
See the ICD GPS 200D.


3) Beyond those belonging to the GPS system, the experiment includes 
further compensations according to the state of the art for this level 
of time calibration. See the PTB test report.


Additional references can be given at need.

People have been attacking the GPS time-transfer, but quite few have 
been looking into the local time-transfer within the sites. I have 
naturally asked some questions about that and got some calibration 
reports in my hand.


Another issue would be the interpretation of the detector signals. I 
doubt it could source that level of bias thought.


Maybe a more detailed analysis should be written up in a paper. There is 
a fair bit of orientation in the time-transfer over GPS field which 
people would need. Since they don't see the same things as the pro:s, it 
looks like the biggest source of uncertainty.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Question re neutrinos and GPS

[bg]

Hi Antonio,

> "The GPS is very unlikely to give an accurate speed for anything near the
> speed of light - for there are many known effects not taken into account
> by the GPS protocol.
> In the end the OPERA experiment may alert people to the assumptions and
> approximations implicit in the GPS."
>
> This wrongfooted me. So please, does the above quoted statement have any
> meaning for time-nuts? Don't answer "ask the author of the statement"
> please, I
> would like to hear the opinion of time-nuts.

In what way is GPS measuring the speed of the neutrions directly? It is
not that you have a GPS receiver riding the neutrions from the starting
site to the finish site... ;-)

The GPS receivers are syncing the reference clocks at both the sites. GPS
can be used for time/freq transfer, and is a well established tool for
that.

I fail to see the meaning of the quoted statement.

--

   Björn


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[time-nuts] Question re neutrinos and GPS

[iov...@inwind.it]

So far it seemed to me that the overall standpoint of the authoritative time-
nuts list is that the GPS timing and geografical survey of the OPERA experiment 
are good (and hence experimental errors or artifacts, if any, should be 
searched for elsewhere).

I myself, not being a deep GPS expert, joined this standpoint with confidence 
(but indeed I could have been affected by a sentimental bias).

Now I read on another list, in which the subject is not timekeeping and from a 
respectable author, that:

"The GPS is very unlikely to give an accurate speed for anything near the 
speed of light - for there are many known effects not taken into account by the 
GPS protocol. 
In the end the OPERA experiment may alert people to the assumptions and 
approximations implicit in the GPS."

This wrongfooted me. So please, does the above quoted statement have any 
meaning for time-nuts? Don't answer "ask the author of the statement" please, I 
would like to hear the opinion of time-nuts.

Thanks.

Antonio I8IOV



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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Magnus Danielson]

Rick,

On 01/06/2012 10:14 PM, Rick Karlquist wrote:

John Ackermann N8UR wrote:

I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local
source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a
sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal
transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.


Before making this into a science project, consider this data
point:  We converted the oscillator in a 10811 to run in mode
B at 10.95 MHz.  The tempco in mode B is about 30 ppm per degree
C.  Needless to say, the converted 10811 was extremely sensitive
to crystal temperature.  I could wave my hands around it and notice
the temperature change from the air currents.  However, simply
putting the 10811 into a small empty cardboard box completely
solved this problem.  No rocket science necessary.  So in the
short term, this simple box was like a double oven.  Of course,
in the long run, the 10811 thermal gain is only 1000 or so and
you can see the effect of the HVAC shutting down at 7PM, etc.


This is essentially what I've found quite useful at many times, quick 
air fluctuations affects crystals pretty good but just blocking the air 
helps to slow down things. Long-term creeps through but is not on the 
same scale.


A large enough cardboard box will leak over-temperature such that the 
oven keeps working.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Rick Karlquist]

Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> A metal shell inside a metal shell pretty well takes care of everything.
> Gradients, transients, drafts, what ever. You don't need super thick
> stuff.
> Bud chassis, Hammond boxes, copper pipe, PC board material, or soldered
> brass flashing all will do the trick.

We also tried mounting the modified 10811 in Hammond metal box.
Initially, we mounted the 10811 to the box using the
two standoffs that come with the 10811.  However, this
degraded the performance somewhat.  We removed these and
had the 10811 supported mechanically only by the edge
connector.  With that change, it was as good as the cardboard
box.  Remember that my modified 10811 is orders of magnitude
more sensitive that an ordinary oscillator, so if I don't see
a change, you definitely won't.

During E1938A development, we compared foam to still air.
We could see no difference.  It's just an implementation choice.

Rick Karlquist
N6RK


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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Chris Albertson]

I'm planning to do it a little different.  I'll mount the FE5680 on a
heat sink and put that inside a metal box.  The I drill a hole in the
center of the heat sink and epoxy in a temperature sensor.  These
produce a voltage proportional to temperature and will control a small
fan.   The moving air will be in the lower part of the box separate
from the Rb oscillator


Once for another project I use  a TEC (aka Peltier Device)  The
peltier did the fine tuning.  They are not hard to use at all.  But
you need a few amps of DC current and a controller.   You can get to
0.1C this way.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[phil]

  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal
transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.

Are you sure it is not thermal mass that needs to be increased and  
not just insulation?


Phil

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Jim Lux]

On 1/6/12 11:39 AM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:

I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local
source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a
sensitive OCXO. My goal is just to slow down any external thermal
transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.

I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the inside
bottom and side of the metal chassis. The trimmed sheet sizes will each
probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches. I have enough clearance for a
thickness of a half inch or so. I'd like to avoid a bat material as that
would be hard to mount neatly.

Long lifetime (ie, not getting all crumbly after a few years) is
important as I don't expect this oscillator to get cold until I do.

Any suggestions of a material to look for?



There are a variety of foams available. Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) foam 
(styrofoam) is one,and readily available, but typically fairly low 
density (sort of like big cottage cheese blobs). Also called "beadboard" 
(which name is obvious if you've seen degraded styrofoam icechests). 
It's got tiny passages which let water migrate through, so in commercial 
insulation, you need impermeable face sheets.


Extruded Polystyrene foam (aka XPS or XEPS) is blue or pink board.  It's 
what's used in construction a lot. It's a higher density (in a kg/liter 
sense) than EPS with more uniform smaller bubbles.  Easily sawed, 
sanded, etc. (an electric carving knife works great).


Polyisocyanurate and Polyurethane.  Polyisocyanurate is the stuff with a 
foil backing layer.


For the same thickness, the latter foams have a higher R-value (maybe 
50% higher).



Lowes has insulfoam R-tech 1"x2'x4' for $3 according to the web (with 
poly, not foil, face sheets) .  That's a expanded polystyrene.


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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Tom Van Baak]

I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local 
source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a 
sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal 
transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.


Hi John,

Once I used several inch thick polystyrene sheet from Home Depot
for this very purpose, sealed it up all nice with tiny holes for the
power and RF wires. It turns out I nearly burned out the oscillator
because the insulation was so good. The temperature stabilized
somewhere between the crystal set point and the melting point of
solder.

So the lesson is good insulation is not necessarily what you want.
How many watts does your OCXO put out?

What I did instead was to buy a bunch of cement paving blocks
from Home Depot and made an air-tight sarcophagus (Egypt or
Chernobyl-style). Lots of thermal mass.

This was all placed on the concrete basement floor to reduce the
effects of vibration and shock on the oscillator; something else
you may want to consider for best long-term performance.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

A metal shell inside a metal shell pretty well takes care of everything.
Gradients, transients, drafts, what ever. You don't need super thick stuff.
Bud chassis, Hammond boxes, copper pipe, PC board material, or soldered
brass flashing all will do the trick.

Simply tossing a fluffy towel over the unit works amazingly well if drafts
are the only real concern. 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Rick Karlquist
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 4:15 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
> I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local
> source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a
> sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal
> transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.

Before making this into a science project, consider this data
point:  We converted the oscillator in a 10811 to run in mode
B at 10.95 MHz.  The tempco in mode B is about 30 ppm per degree
C.  Needless to say, the converted 10811 was extremely sensitive
to crystal temperature.  I could wave my hands around it and notice
the temperature change from the air currents.  However, simply
putting the 10811 into a small empty cardboard box completely
solved this problem.  No rocket science necessary.  So in the
short term, this simple box was like a double oven.  Of course,
in the long run, the 10811 thermal gain is only 1000 or so and
you can see the effect of the HVAC shutting down at 7PM, etc.

Rick Karlquist
N6RK


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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[David]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:33:19 -0500, John Ackermann N8UR 
wrote:

>On 1/6/2012 4:14 PM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
>
>> Before making this into a science project, consider this data
>> point:  We converted the oscillator in a 10811 to run in mode
>> B at 10.95 MHz.  The tempco in mode B is about 30 ppm per degree
>> C.  Needless to say, the converted 10811 was extremely sensitive
>> to crystal temperature.  I could wave my hands around it and notice
>> the temperature change from the air currents.  However, simply
>> putting the 10811 into a small empty cardboard box completely
>> solved this problem.  No rocket science necessary.  So in the
>> short term, this simple box was like a double oven.  Of course,
>> in the long run, the 10811 thermal gain is only 1000 or so and
>> you can see the effect of the HVAC shutting down at 7PM, etc.
>
>That's interesting, Rick.  I was also thinking that just still air was 
>most of the battle, but since I have the opportunity to do it "right" 
>within reason and this is a fairly major project, I thought that adding 
>some additional thermal isolation couldn't hurt, so why not? 
>(time-nuttery, etc.)

Still air certainly matters for thermocouple effects which can be
difficult to distinguish from 1/f noise but that is what Dixie cups
are for.  I have seen voltage noise improvements of more than 10 times
in some cases but I am not sure how that would apply to the voltage
control signal of an OCXO or the OCXO itself yet.  There must be some
improvement to be gained since double oven OCXOs do exist.

Like you say, the added insulation can not hurt.  I suspect it would
be more effective either mounted directly around the OCXO (probably
difficult) where the surface area would be smaller or mounted on the
outside of the enclosure (impractical) so the added thermal mass of
the enclosure itself would buffer the temperature changes.  The inside
of the enclosure seems to be an easy compromise and would dampen
convection.

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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[paul swed]

Have to agree thats very attractive. Few bucks for shipping and you are
done.

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Chris Albertson
wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Bill Riches 
> wrote:
> > I don't know what all the grief is about a power supply to run the 5680
> > units.  I have three 5380/Trimble GPs units in various locations being
> > powered by Mean Well power supplies from Mouser.  # 709-T40C for about 50
> > bucks - 75 bucks for one with more current.  It is a switching ps but
> seems
> > clean in our lab.  For a hundred bucks you have a RB standard. Spend the
> > bucks!!
>
> If you like open frame PS better then the plug-in boxes
> All Electronics has an open frame 15V switching power supply for $11.
>
> http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PS-152/15VDC-2.7A-POWER-SUPPLY/1.html
>
>
>
>
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Bill, WA2DVU
> > Cape May, NJ
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[lists]

I don't see how the foil is useful here. The metal box takes care of radiation. 

-Original Message-
From: Graham / KE9H 
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:26:46 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

John:

The solution that will last longer than you will, is alternating
layers of aluminum foil (kitchen variety) and (dry) fiberglass cloth
(sold as "roven woven" anywhere they sell fiberglass supplies,
looks like white cloth, you can cut with scissors.)
Good to cryogenic temperatures, no crumbling mechanisms like
foams. Just seal the edges of the stackup with tape, so air can not
move in and out of the stack by convection.

--- Graham / KE9H

==
On 1/6/2012 1:39 PM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
> I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local 
> source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a 
> sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal 
> transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.
>
> I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the 
> inside bottom and side of the metal chassis.  The trimmed sheet sizes 
> will each probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches.  I have enough 
> clearance for a thickness of a half inch or so.  I'd like to avoid a 
> bat material as that would be hard to mount neatly.
>
> Long lifetime (ie, not getting all crumbly after a few years) is 
> important as I don't expect this oscillator to get cold until I do.
>
> Any suggestions of a material to look for?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[John Ackermann N8UR]

On 1/6/2012 4:14 PM, Rick Karlquist wrote:


Before making this into a science project, consider this data
point:  We converted the oscillator in a 10811 to run in mode
B at 10.95 MHz.  The tempco in mode B is about 30 ppm per degree
C.  Needless to say, the converted 10811 was extremely sensitive
to crystal temperature.  I could wave my hands around it and notice
the temperature change from the air currents.  However, simply
putting the 10811 into a small empty cardboard box completely
solved this problem.  No rocket science necessary.  So in the
short term, this simple box was like a double oven.  Of course,
in the long run, the 10811 thermal gain is only 1000 or so and
you can see the effect of the HVAC shutting down at 7PM, etc.


That's interesting, Rick.  I was also thinking that just still air was 
most of the battle, but since I have the opportunity to do it "right" 
within reason and this is a fairly major project, I thought that adding 
some additional thermal isolation couldn't hurt, so why not? 
(time-nuttery, etc.)


John

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Rick Karlquist]

John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
> I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local
> source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a
> sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal
> transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.

Before making this into a science project, consider this data
point:  We converted the oscillator in a 10811 to run in mode
B at 10.95 MHz.  The tempco in mode B is about 30 ppm per degree
C.  Needless to say, the converted 10811 was extremely sensitive
to crystal temperature.  I could wave my hands around it and notice
the temperature change from the air currents.  However, simply
putting the 10811 into a small empty cardboard box completely
solved this problem.  No rocket science necessary.  So in the
short term, this simple box was like a double oven.  Of course,
in the long run, the 10811 thermal gain is only 1000 or so and
you can see the effect of the HVAC shutting down at 7PM, etc.

Rick Karlquist
N6RK


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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[David]

I completely forgot about those two.  I have a good local hobby shop
with large pieces of balsa wood but I suspect it would be more
expensive than good quality expanded polystyrene bead sheet.  I will
have to check out foam board next time.  Both would be more difficult
to cut without a hot wire knife.

On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:21:48 -0500, "jmfranke" 
wrote:

>Balsa wood is good and is readily available from Hobby Shops. Or Gator board 
>(paper laminated on foam) also called foam board from Art's and Craft 
>stores.
>
>John  WA4WDL
>
>--
>From: "John Ackermann N8UR" 
>Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 2:39 PM
>To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
>
>Subject: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?
>
>> I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local 
>> source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a sensitive 
>> OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal transients so the 
>> oven loop has time to react gracefully.
>>
>> I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the inside 
>> bottom and side of the metal chassis.  The trimmed sheet sizes will each 
>> probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches.  I have enough clearance for a 
>> thickness of a half inch or so.  I'd like to avoid a bat material as that 
>> would be hard to mount neatly.
>>
>> Long lifetime (ie, not getting all crumbly after a few years) is important 
>> as I don't expect this oscillator to get cold until I do.
>>
>> Any suggestions of a material to look for?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Joe Gwinn]

I wonder if Balsa wood would be suitable?  Like polystyrene foam, 
only stronger and easy to glue.


I think commercial OXCOs use polystyrene foam that's expanded to 
shape, which is fine in production, but making the mold for one use 
is not efficient.  However, there are lots of expand-in-place 
urethane foams available from building supply houses.


Joe Gwinn

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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[Chris Albertson]

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Bill Riches  wrote:
> I don't know what all the grief is about a power supply to run the 5680
> units.  I have three 5380/Trimble GPs units in various locations being
> powered by Mean Well power supplies from Mouser.  # 709-T40C for about 50
> bucks - 75 bucks for one with more current.  It is a switching ps but seems
> clean in our lab.  For a hundred bucks you have a RB standard. Spend the
> bucks!!

If you like open frame PS better then the plug-in boxes
All Electronics has an open frame 15V switching power supply for $11.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PS-152/15VDC-2.7A-POWER-SUPPLY/1.html




>
> 73,
>
> Bill, WA2DVU
> Cape May, NJ
>
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[John Ackermann N8UR]

On 1/6/2012 2:54 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:


Can you put something that uses power inside an insulated box? I'd
think it might over heat.


Thanks, all, for the numerous and helpful responses!

To answer Chris' question, putting insulation all the way around the 
oscillator might cause problems as you suggest.  I'm only planning to 
put the insulation on the two surfaces that are only a couple of inches 
from the OCXO (chassis bottom and one side), and maybe on the top cover. 
 There will be several inches of interior space on the other sides; 
enough, I hope, to smooth any thermals coming from the other exterior walls.


John

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[time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[ed breya]

Yes - especially don't rub any cats on it or it may damage some electronics.

BTW for machining, any fine-toothed saw blade works well for straight 
cuts. A metal hacksaw blade is usually stiff enough by itself to make 
accurate, clean finish cuts on "quality" styrofoam. For drilling 
round holes use paper drills - you can make your own custom sizes 
from any soft metal tubing with a chamfered slicing rim formed by 
running a larger drill bit into the end until the rim is sharp.


Ed


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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Graham / KE9H]

John:

The solution that will last longer than you will, is alternating
layers of aluminum foil (kitchen variety) and (dry) fiberglass cloth
(sold as "roven woven" anywhere they sell fiberglass supplies,
looks like white cloth, you can cut with scissors.)
Good to cryogenic temperatures, no crumbling mechanisms like
foams. Just seal the edges of the stackup with tape, so air can not
move in and out of the stack by convection.

--- Graham / KE9H

==
On 1/6/2012 1:39 PM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local 
source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a 
sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal 
transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.


I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the 
inside bottom and side of the metal chassis.  The trimmed sheet sizes 
will each probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches.  I have enough 
clearance for a thickness of a half inch or so.  I'd like to avoid a 
bat material as that would be hard to mount neatly.


Long lifetime (ie, not getting all crumbly after a few years) is 
important as I don't expect this oscillator to get cold until I do.


Any suggestions of a material to look for?

Thanks,

John

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[jmfranke]

Balsa wood is good and is readily available from Hobby Shops. Or Gator board 
(paper laminated on foam) also called foam board from Art's and Craft 
stores.


John  WA4WDL

--
From: "John Ackermann N8UR" 
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 2:39 PM
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Subject: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local 
source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a sensitive 
OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal transients so the 
oven loop has time to react gracefully.


I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the inside 
bottom and side of the metal chassis.  The trimmed sheet sizes will each 
probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches.  I have enough clearance for a 
thickness of a half inch or so.  I'd like to avoid a bat material as that 
would be hard to mount neatly.


Long lifetime (ie, not getting all crumbly after a few years) is important 
as I don't expect this oscillator to get cold until I do.


Any suggestions of a material to look for?

Thanks,

John

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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[Bill Riches]

I don't know what all the grief is about a power supply to run the 5680
units.  I have three 5380/Trimble GPs units in various locations being
powered by Mean Well power supplies from Mouser.  # 709-T40C for about 50
bucks - 75 bucks for one with more current.  It is a switching ps but seems
clean in our lab.  For a hundred bucks you have a RB standard. Spend the
bucks!!

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May, NJ



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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <201201062016.q06kg3vj016...@mail32c40.carrierzone.com>, ed breya wr
ites:

>That stuff at Home Depot is the way to go. You can use regular 
>styrofoam [...]

Just remember that clean styrofoam is great at static electricity...


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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[time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[ed breya]

That stuff at Home Depot is the way to go. You can use regular 
styrofoam from coolers and cold shipping boxes, but there are a lot 
of grades, ranging from crappy to great, and some are even 
biodegradable - not good for this application. The construction types 
are made to last, but also may have fire retardants and preservatives 
that could cause problems. I think the smallest standard sheets will 
be 4' x 8' in the US, in various thicknesses. If you are near any 
construction sites you can sometimes find cutoffs for free in the 
dumpsters - perfect for small projects. I recently scrounged a few 
pieces of the pinkish type - very strong, good stuff, with fine foam, 
it machines nicely, and seems to be chemically inert.


Ed


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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Eric Garner]

I mostly like it because it's easy to use, and _doesn't_ insulate too
well. you can add/subtract what you like to find the performance you
are happy with.

it also has the advantage that it doesn't degrade into garbage like
some closed cell foams do, and is really easy to work with

-Eric

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> In message 
> 
> , Eric Garner writes:
>
>>I've used "Reflectix" duct insulation in applications like this. it's
>>essentially bubble wrap with a reflective layer, you can layer it
>>pretty easily to add/subtract from the insulation value. plus is comes
>>in small, cheap rolls
>
> Be aware that most of the (claimed!) insulation in these kind of
> materials come from the radiation reflection and is contingent on
> there being a huge-ish temperature difference between the two sides
> *and* that the material is not in contact surfaces, certainly not
> on the hot side.
>
> Where this material really wins is under roofs, which can become 100C or
> warmer, while you want to maintain 20C inside the house.
>
> They suck if you have 20C on one side and 32C on the other.
>
> Compared to bubble-wrap, it is unlikely to perform any different
> in an application like this, because of the low temperature differences.
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>
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-- 
--Eric
_
Eric Garner

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[George Dubovsky]

There is a closed-cell foam,  aluminum foil clad on one or both sides that
is used as HVAC ductwork - they score it with a knife, and fold it to size
- that should withstand the temperatures you are contemplating, for a long
time. I have seen some approximately 1/2 to 5/8 inch, and the quantities
you need should be available free from your local HVAC shop.

73,

geo - n4ua

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 2:39 PM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:

> I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local
> source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a sensitive
> OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal transients so the
> oven loop has time to react gracefully.
>
> I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the inside
> bottom and side of the metal chassis.  The trimmed sheet sizes will each
> probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches.  I have enough clearance for a
> thickness of a half inch or so.  I'd like to avoid a bat material as that
> would be hard to mount neatly.
>
> Long lifetime (ie, not getting all crumbly after a few years) is important
> as I don't expect this oscillator to get cold until I do.
>
> Any suggestions of a material to look for?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> __**_
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[lists]

Heat is transferred via convection, radiation, and conduction. A sealed metal 
box takes care of radiation and convection, so as you correctly point out, 
conduction is the next frontier. 

I'd say foam board , but I don't know specifically what kind of foam. 

--Original Message--
From: John Ackermann N8UR
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
ReplyTo: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?
Sent: Jan 6, 2012 11:39 AM

I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local 
source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a 
sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal 
transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.

I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the inside 
bottom and side of the metal chassis.  The trimmed sheet sizes will each 
probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches.  I have enough clearance for 
a thickness of a half inch or so.  I'd like to avoid a bat material as 
that would be hard to mount neatly.

Long lifetime (ie, not getting all crumbly after a few years) is 
important as I don't expect this oscillator to get cold until I do.

Any suggestions of a material to look for?

Thanks,

John

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi John:

Michaels has Styrofoam, hot wire cutter and glue.

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/Brooke4Congress.html


John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local source) insulating material to use in a chassis 
that's housing a sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal transients so the oven loop has 
time to react gracefully.


I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the inside bottom and side of the metal chassis.  The 
trimmed sheet sizes will each probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches.  I have enough clearance for a thickness of a 
half inch or so.  I'd like to avoid a bat material as that would be hard to mount neatly.


Long lifetime (ie, not getting all crumbly after a few years) is important as I don't expect this oscillator to get 
cold until I do.


Any suggestions of a material to look for?

Thanks,

John

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 
, Eric Garner writes:

>I've used "Reflectix" duct insulation in applications like this. it's
>essentially bubble wrap with a reflective layer, you can layer it
>pretty easily to add/subtract from the insulation value. plus is comes
>in small, cheap rolls

Be aware that most of the (claimed!) insulation in these kind of
materials come from the radiation reflection and is contingent on
there being a huge-ish temperature difference between the two sides
*and* that the material is not in contact surfaces, certainly not
on the hot side.

Where this material really wins is under roofs, which can become 100C or
warmer, while you want to maintain 20C inside the house.

They suck if you have 20C on one side and 32C on the other.

Compared to bubble-wrap, it is unlikely to perform any different
in an application like this, because of the low temperature differences.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Chris Albertson]

They sell 4x8 foot sheets of aluminum foil faced foam insulation at
Home Depot.  The thinnest is maybe just under one inch.  Thickest is
about 4" thick.  The other thing is just to make the cabinet out of
wood rather then sheet metal.  Finally in stores that sell camping
equipment you can get roll up pads that are used under sleeping bags.
This stuff is very durable and is designed for insulation.  It will be
a closed cell flexible foam.  I use this stuff inside Pelican type
cases and you can attach it with contact cement.

Can you put something that uses power inside an insulated box? I'd
think it might over heat.



On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 11:39 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:
> I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local source)
> insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a sensitive OCXO.  My
> goal is just to slow down any external thermal transients so the oven loop
> has time to react gracefully.
>
> I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the inside
> bottom and side of the metal chassis.  The trimmed sheet sizes will each
> probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches.  I have enough clearance for a
> thickness of a half inch or so.  I'd like to avoid a bat material as that
> would be hard to mount neatly.
>
> Long lifetime (ie, not getting all crumbly after a few years) is important
> as I don't expect this oscillator to get cold until I do.
>
> Any suggestions of a material to look for?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Eric Garner]

I've used "Reflectix" duct insulation in applications like this. it's
essentially bubble wrap with a reflective layer, you can layer it
pretty easily to add/subtract from the insulation value. plus is comes
in small, cheap rolls

here is a link to the amazon item, but it's in most hardware stores too:
http://www.amazon.com/Reflectix-6X25-Foil-Insulation-Lpw0602506/dp/B000BQNYSI/ref=sr_1_5?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1325879277&sr=1-5


-Eric

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 11:39 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:
>
> I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local source) 
> insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a sensitive OCXO.  My 
> goal is just to slow down any external thermal transients so the oven loop 
> has time to react gracefully.
>
> I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the inside 
> bottom and side of the metal chassis.  The trimmed sheet sizes will each 
> probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches.  I have enough clearance for a 
> thickness of a half inch or so.  I'd like to avoid a bat material as that 
> would be hard to mount neatly.
>
> Long lifetime (ie, not getting all crumbly after a few years) is important as 
> I don't expect this oscillator to get cold until I do.
>
> Any suggestions of a material to look for?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> ___
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> and follow the instructions there.




--
--Eric
_
Eric Garner

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[David]

I just did this search for similar application.  The cheapest stuff
they have is expanded polystyrene bead sheet which is easy enough to
work with but may be too thick (3/4") or not as durable as you want. I
made a hot wire cutting element for my Weller soldering gun out of a
length of 10 gauge copper wire to cut out and trim the shapes I
wanted.

They also have a bunch of thinner (about 3/8") closed cell insulating
foams (I didn't check but would guess real Styrofoam) which are
probably more than durable enough but more expensive because of the
sheet size.

On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:39:05 -0500, John Ackermann N8UR 
wrote:

>I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local 
>source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a 
>sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal 
>transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.
>
>I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the inside 
>bottom and side of the metal chassis.  The trimmed sheet sizes will each 
>probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches.  I have enough clearance for 
>a thickness of a half inch or so.  I'd like to avoid a bat material as 
>that would be hard to mount neatly.
>
>Long lifetime (ie, not getting all crumbly after a few years) is 
>important as I don't expect this oscillator to get cold until I do.
>
>Any suggestions of a material to look for?
>
>Thanks,
>
>John

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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <4f074dd9.5070...@febo.com>, John Ackermann N8UR writes:

>I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local 
>source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a 
>sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal 
>transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.

>I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the inside 
>bottom and side of the metal chassis.  The trimmed sheet sizes will each 
>probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches.

Buy a foam camping-matress of the kind you put under your sleeping bag ?

They're cheap, and usually impregnated against anything that might
conceiveably try to eat them.


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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[time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[John Ackermann N8UR]

I am looking for a readily available (from Home Depot or other local 
source) insulating material to use in a chassis that's housing a 
sensitive OCXO.  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal 
transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.


I'm thinking of something in sheet form that I could glue to the inside 
bottom and side of the metal chassis.  The trimmed sheet sizes will each 
probably end up being around 4 x 8 inches.  I have enough clearance for 
a thickness of a half inch or so.  I'd like to avoid a bat material as 
that would be hard to mount neatly.


Long lifetime (ie, not getting all crumbly after a few years) is 
important as I don't expect this oscillator to get cold until I do.


Any suggestions of a material to look for?

Thanks,

John

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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R]

As I understand it, the "physics package" needs to get quite hot
to work.

I would expect the physics package to be well insulated and off
by itself, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

On 01/06/2012 10:06 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:

I do not understand why this is even discussed. Running at lower
temperature will extend life and using a fan with temperature control will cost 
 no
more than $ 12 and I challenge any of you how I can get for so little money
more than one order of magnitude improvement. As I reported before I started
out  with heat sink only and quickly realized that I would not be able to
measure  aging because the last 2 digits where all over the place and unless
you have an  environment where your lab is within 0.1C  you are throwing
away the real  advantage of a Rb.
I did enclose the Rb cell and the OCXO on a FEI 5962B, its modularity lends
  it self for such testing, it was not worth the effort and the power saving
was  minimal.
Once my aging tests are completed I will test for 15 V voltage  sensitivity.
Bert Kehren


In a message dated 1/6/2012 11:35:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
n...@verizon.net writes:

A heat sink may not be required, per se, although I  would expect that a
larger thermal mass and/or thermal  regulation via a closed loop fan
controller will help smooth  out/stabilize temperature effects.


On 01/06/12, Chuck  Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R  wrote:

The Tech  Manual does not call for heat sinking (unless I missed
something).
The top has labels over much of the  surface.
The bottom has a plastic sheet between the circuitry  and bottom plate.
It appears the unit was expected to be  rather hot when running.
I have mine mounted on the out side  of the box using standoffs.
On 01/06/2012 07:39 AM, Bob  Smither wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED  MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Chris Albertson wrote:

On  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 6:11 PM,<[1]time-n...@custodes.info>   wrote:


  l<[2]http://www.freqelec.com/rb_osc_fe5680a.html>  says 32W  peak,

but then

also 15-18v@700mA,  which doesn't make sense.

It  will pull 35W for the first five or so minutes then the  current

drops

rather suddenly to  about 700mA.

I have an  analog amp meter on my power supply and I can see a switch

over

after the unit heats up. They must run an  internal oven heater full

tilt

at  first then go into regulated mode.

Some one else said you can cause the FE5680 to draw more power  in

steady

state mode by adding heat  sinking it. Yes that works. Seems the

FE5680

wants to be at some set temperature and the heat sink means it  takes

more

power to keep at the set  point. I just let the fe5680 rest on a

small

aluminum plate.

Have you measured the case  temperature of your FE5680?

I put  mine on a heat sink and the case temperature stays around 50C.

Without

the heat sink it was around 60C. Does anyone know  what temperature is
recommended? The 50C seems a little  hot, but the unit appears to work

well.

- --
Bob Smither, PhD Circuit  Concepts, Inc.


===
==

Government is not healthy for children and other  living things.
-- Jeff Daiell


===
==

[3]smit...@c-c-i.com [4]http://www.C-C-I.Com  281-331-2744(office)

-4616(fax)

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Comment: Using GnuPG with CentOS -  [5]http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R [8]c...@omen.com [9]www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
Omen Technology Inc "The High Reliability Software"
10255 NW  Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430
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References

1.  mailto:time-n...@custodes.info
2.  http://www.freqelec.com/rb_osc_fe5680a.html
3.  mailto:smit...@c-c-i.com
4.  http://www.C-C-I.Com/
5.  http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
6.  mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
7.  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
8.  mailto:c...@omen.com
9. http://www.omen.com/
10.  mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
11.  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[Peter Gottlieb]

 What kind of temperature controlled fan did you use?
 
 
On 01/06/12, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:
 
I do not understand why this is even discussed. Running at lower 
temperature will extend life and using a fan with temperature control will cost 
no 
more than $ 12 and I challenge any of you how I can get for so little money 
more than one order of magnitude improvement. As I reported before I started 
out with heat sink only and quickly realized that I would not be able to 
measure aging because the last 2 digits where all over the place and unless 
you have an environment where your lab is within 0.1C you are throwing 
away the real advantage of a Rb.
I did enclose the Rb cell and the OCXO on a FEI 5962B, its modularity lends 
 it self for such testing, it was not worth the effort and the power saving 
was minimal.
Once my aging tests are completed I will test for 15 V voltage sensitivity.
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 1/6/2012 11:35:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
n...@verizon.net writes:

A heat sink may not be required, per se, although I would expect that a
larger thermal mass and/or thermal regulation via a closed loop fan
controller will help smooth out/stabilize temperature effects.


On 01/06/12, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R wrote:

The Tech Manual does not call for heat sinking (unless I missed
something).
The top has labels over much of the surface.
The bottom has a plastic sheet between the circuitry and bottom plate.
It appears the unit was expected to be rather hot when running.
I have mine mounted on the out side of the box using standoffs.
On 01/06/2012 07:39 AM, Bob Smither wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Chris Albertson wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 6:11 PM,<[1]time-n...@custodes.info> wrote:
>>
>>> l<[2]http://www.freqelec.com/rb_osc_fe5680a.html> says 32W peak,
but then
>>> also 15-18v@700mA, which doesn't make sense.
>>
>> It will pull 35W for the first five or so minutes then the current
drops
>> rather suddenly to about 700mA.
>>
>> I have an analog amp meter on my power supply and I can see a switch
over
>> after the unit heats up. They must run an internal oven heater full
tilt
>> at first then go into regulated mode.
>>
>> Some one else said you can cause the FE5680 to draw more power in
steady
>> state mode by adding heat sinking it. Yes that works. Seems the
FE5680
>> wants to be at some set temperature and the heat sink means it takes
more
>> power to keep at the set point. I just let the fe5680 rest on a
small
>> aluminum plate.
> Have you measured the case temperature of your FE5680?
>
> I put mine on a heat sink and the case temperature stays around 50C.
Without
> the heat sink it was around 60C. Does anyone know what temperature is
> recommended? The 50C seems a little hot, but the unit appears to work
well.
>
> - --
> Bob Smither, PhD Circuit Concepts, Inc.
>
===
==
> Government is not healthy for children and other living things.
> -- Jeff Daiell
>
===
==
> [3]smit...@c-c-i.com [4]http://www.C-C-I.Com 281-331-2744(office)
-4616(fax)
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with CentOS - [5]http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFPBxXFsmY7BY+CYksRAlutAJ9R9STR0oja4ib1CjKXLEfGe3uXpgCfRW8D
> m78FO0Trn+6bIBPKrNs8PVQ=
> =FdtA
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>
> ___
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--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R [8]c...@omen.com [9]www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
Omen Technology Inc "The High Reliability Software"
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430
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References

1. mailto:time-n...@custodes.info
2. http://www.freqelec.com/rb_osc_fe5680a.html
3. mailto:smit...@c-c-i.com
4. http://www.C-C-I.Com/
5. http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
6. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
7. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
8. mailto:c...@omen.com
9. http://www.omen.com/
10. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
11. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.) >> capacitors

[Azelio Boriani]

OK, note taken. Usually large capacitors are not available with tantalum
dielectric, it seems that the last is a 1000uF 6.3V.

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Oddly enough, if you use a tantalum electrolytic as C2, it's not very happy
> in that circuit. Their leakage with low voltages on them can be pretty
> nasty.
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 5:50 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.) >> capacitors
>
> In message
> 
> , Azelio Boriani writes:
>
> >I have googled extensively trying to find something about the dual
> >capacitor method of reducing the leakage current... nothing found. Please,
> >can you indicate anything for me to learn more?
>
> It is very simple:
>
> R1 charges C1 to the DC potential and therefore C2 sees
> (almost) no DC voltage, which means (almost) no leakage
> current.  C2 is still a capacitor for any AC or dV component.
>
> I belive I picked this trick up from a datasheet or app-note relating
> to precision voltage references.
>
> Poul-Henning
>
> >> [Some op-amp]  >-+-R2-+-->
> >>  ||
> >>  |  - C2
> >>  |  -
> >>  ||
> >>  +---||---+
> >>R1 |
> >>   |
> >> -  C1
> >> -
> >>   |
> >>  GND
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[EWKehren]

I do not understand why this is even discussed. Running at lower  
temperature will extend life and using a fan with temperature control will cost 
 no 
more than $ 12 and I challenge any of you how I can get for so little money  
more than one order of magnitude improvement. As I reported before I started 
out  with heat sink only and quickly realized that I would not be able to 
measure  aging because the last 2 digits where all over the place and unless 
you have an  environment where your lab is within 0.1C  you are throwing 
away the real  advantage of a Rb.
I did enclose the Rb cell and the OCXO on a FEI 5962B, its modularity lends 
 it self for such testing, it was not worth the effort and the power saving 
was  minimal.
Once my aging tests are completed I will test for 15 V voltage  sensitivity.
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 1/6/2012 11:35:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
n...@verizon.net writes:

A heat sink may not be required, per se, although I  would expect that a
larger thermal mass and/or thermal  regulation via a closed loop fan
controller will help smooth  out/stabilize temperature effects.


On 01/06/12, Chuck  Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R wrote:

The Tech  Manual does not call for heat sinking (unless I missed
something).
The top has labels over much of the  surface.
The bottom has a plastic sheet between the circuitry  and bottom plate.
It appears the unit was expected to be  rather hot when running.
I have mine mounted on the out side  of the box using standoffs.
On 01/06/2012 07:39 AM, Bob  Smither wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED  MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Chris Albertson wrote:
>> On  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 6:11 PM,<[1]time-n...@custodes.info>  wrote:
>>
>>>  l<[2]http://www.freqelec.com/rb_osc_fe5680a.html> says 32W  peak,
but then
>>> also 15-18v@700mA,  which doesn't make sense.
>>
>> It  will pull 35W for the first five or so minutes then the  current
drops
>> rather suddenly to  about 700mA.
>>
>> I have an  analog amp meter on my power supply and I can see a switch
over
>> after the unit heats up. They must run an  internal oven heater full
tilt
>> at  first then go into regulated mode.
>>
>> Some one else said you can cause the FE5680 to draw more power  in
steady
>> state mode by adding heat  sinking it. Yes that works. Seems the
FE5680
>> wants to be at some set temperature and the heat sink means it  takes
more
>> power to keep at the set  point. I just let the fe5680 rest on a
small
>> aluminum plate.
> Have you measured the case  temperature of your FE5680?
>
> I put  mine on a heat sink and the case temperature stays around 50C.
Without
> the heat sink it was around 60C. Does anyone know  what temperature is
> recommended? The 50C seems a little  hot, but the unit appears to work
well.
>
> - --
> Bob Smither, PhD Circuit  Concepts, Inc.
>
===
==
> Government is not healthy for children and other  living things.
> -- Jeff Daiell
>
===
==
> [3]smit...@c-c-i.com [4]http://www.C-C-I.Com  281-331-2744(office)
-4616(fax)
>  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.5  (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with CentOS -  [5]http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
>  iD8DBQFPBxXFsmY7BY+CYksRAlutAJ9R9STR0oja4ib1CjKXLEfGe3uXpgCfRW8D
> m78FO0Trn+6bIBPKrNs8PVQ=
> =FdtA
>  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>
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--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R [8]c...@omen.com [9]www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
Omen Technology Inc "The High Reliability Software"
10255 NW  Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430
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References

1.  mailto:time-n...@custodes.info
2.  http://www.freqelec.com/rb_osc_fe5680a.html
3.  mailto:smit...@c-c-i.com
4.  http://www.C-C-I.Com/
5.  http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
6.  mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
7.  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
8.  mailto:c...@omen.com
9. http://www.omen.com/
10.  mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
11.  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[Ian Bobbitt]

Eventually, I think a reference clock for an HPSDR and/or PLL'd up and used to 
clock my net4501.

-- Ian, KB9VEX

On Jan 6, 2012, at 12:53 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:

> I do not care for this test but later on I will use a LDO and a clean up  
> OCXO. 
> Bert
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/6/2012 12:37:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> li...@rtty.us writes:
> 
> Hi
> 
> What are you using the Rb for?
> 
> A switcher is going  to put even more hash on an already dirty 10 MHz output
> on the Rb. That may  or may not be an issue to you. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> -Original  Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of  time-n...@custodes.info
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 9:56 PM
> To:  Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re:  [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?
> 
> 
> On Jan 5, 2012, at 9:33  PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
>> Most laptop supplies operate around  19 or 20 volts. Its a good place to
> start if you want to get 15V through a  linear regulator.
>> 
>> I have used Nintendo Wii supplies for 12V  applications that require less
> than 3.5A. Chinese clones of those can be  bought on eBay for less than $10
> with shipping.
>> 
>> Didier  KO4BB
>> 
>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do  other things...
> 
> So a cheap switcher down to 18-20v and a pair of linear  regulators to get
> the 5 and 15v? I was hoping for something more  off-the-shelf; my T-bolt is
> running off the power supply in the TAPR/tvb  group buy from a few years  
> ago.


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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.) >> capacitors

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Oddly enough, if you use a tantalum electrolytic as C2, it's not very happy
in that circuit. Their leakage with low voltages on them can be pretty
nasty.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 5:50 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.) >> capacitors

In message

, Azelio Boriani writes:

>I have googled extensively trying to find something about the dual
>capacitor method of reducing the leakage current... nothing found. Please,
>can you indicate anything for me to learn more?

It is very simple:

R1 charges C1 to the DC potential and therefore C2 sees
(almost) no DC voltage, which means (almost) no leakage
current.  C2 is still a capacitor for any AC or dV component.

I belive I picked this trick up from a datasheet or app-note relating
to precision voltage references.

Poul-Henning

>> [Some op-amp]  >-+-R2-+-->
>>  ||
>>  |  - C2
>>  |  -
>>  ||
>>  +---||---+
>>R1 |
>>   |
>> -  C1
>> -
>>   |
>>  GND

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[EWKehren]

I do not care for this test but later on I will use a LDO and a clean up  
OCXO. 
Bert
 
 
In a message dated 1/6/2012 12:37:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
li...@rtty.us writes:

Hi

What are you using the Rb for?

A switcher is going  to put even more hash on an already dirty 10 MHz output
on the Rb. That may  or may not be an issue to you. 

Bob

-Original  Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of  time-n...@custodes.info
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 9:56 PM
To:  Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re:  [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?


On Jan 5, 2012, at 9:33  PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

> Most laptop supplies operate around  19 or 20 volts. Its a good place to
start if you want to get 15V through a  linear regulator.
> 
> I have used Nintendo Wii supplies for 12V  applications that require less
than 3.5A. Chinese clones of those can be  bought on eBay for less than $10
with shipping.
> 
> Didier  KO4BB
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do  other things...

So a cheap switcher down to 18-20v and a pair of linear  regulators to get
the 5 and 15v? I was hoping for something more  off-the-shelf; my T-bolt is
running off the power supply in the TAPR/tvb  group buy from a few years  
ago.
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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

What are you using the Rb for?

A switcher is going to put even more hash on an already dirty 10 MHz output
on the Rb. That may or may not be an issue to you. 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of time-n...@custodes.info
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 9:56 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?


On Jan 5, 2012, at 9:33 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

> Most laptop supplies operate around 19 or 20 volts. Its a good place to
start if you want to get 15V through a linear regulator.
> 
> I have used Nintendo Wii supplies for 12V applications that require less
than 3.5A. Chinese clones of those can be bought on eBay for less than $10
with shipping.
> 
> Didier KO4BB
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

So a cheap switcher down to 18-20v and a pair of linear regulators to get
the 5 and 15v? I was hoping for something more off-the-shelf; my T-bolt is
running off the power supply in the TAPR/tvb group buy from a few years ago.
___
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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I've been down this road with several Rb's. The answer is fairly simple.
They work fine with a hot base plate. They don't work any better or worse
with a hot plate than a cold(er) one though. 

The gotcha is that the MTBF of the parts in the unit is indeed impacted by
the higher temperature. Hotter = stuff fails faster. With no heat sink, you
will run fine for a number of months or even a couple of years. Then
something odd dies. It may or may not take other stuff with it. I'm a slow
learner and have killed to many Rb's this way. 

If you heat sink them, they do indeed pull a little more power in the
heaters. I have not seen one fail from overworked heaters when heat sinked.
There's nothing magic about the heat sink. A chunk of PCB material or a
scrap piece of aluminum plate can do the job.  

Most of the datasheets get around this by specifying base plate temperature
rather than ambient. In some cases the fine print that obscures that point
is pretty far down in the spec. Usually that gets taken as "hottest part of
bottom of the unit".

Of course with cheap Rb's you can toss one out when it fries and just
replace it...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 11:02 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

The Tech Manual does not call for heat sinking (unless I missed something).
The top has labels over much of the surface.
The bottom has a plastic sheet between the circuitry and bottom plate.

It appears the unit was expected to be rather hot when running.
I have mine mounted on the out side of the box using standoffs.

On 01/06/2012 07:39 AM, Bob Smither wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Chris Albertson wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 6:11 PM,  wrote:
>>
>>> l  says 32W peak, but then
>>> also 15-18v@700mA, which doesn't make sense.
>>
>> It will pull 35W for the first five or so minutes then the current drops
>> rather suddenly to about 700mA.
>>
>> I have an analog amp meter on my power supply and I can see a switch over
>> after the unit heats up.   They must run an internal oven heater full
tilt
>> at first then go into regulated mode.
>>
>> Some one else said you can cause the FE5680 to draw more power in steady
>> state mode by adding heat sinking it.  Yes that works.  Seems the FE5680
>> wants to be at some set temperature and the heat sink means it takes more
>> power to keep at the set point.   I just let the fe5680 rest on a small
>> aluminum plate.
> Have you measured the case temperature of your FE5680?
>
> I put mine on a heat sink and the case temperature stays around 50C.
Without
> the heat sink it was around 60C.  Does anyone know what temperature is
> recommended?  The 50C seems a little hot, but the unit appears to work
well.
>
> - --
> Bob Smither, PhD   Circuit Concepts, Inc.
> =
>   Government is not healthy for children and other living things.
> -- Jeff Daiell
> =
> smit...@c-c-i.com  http://www.C-C-I.Com  281-331-2744(office)  -4616(fax)
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with CentOS - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFPBxXFsmY7BY+CYksRAlutAJ9R9STR0oja4ib1CjKXLEfGe3uXpgCfRW8D
> m78FO0Trn+6bIBPKrNs8PVQ=
> =FdtA
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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-- 
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
   Omen Technology Inc  "The High Reliability Software"
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430

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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[mike cook]

Le 06/01/2012 18:05, David a écrit :

Yes, I am inclined to agree as I suspect these devices were designed to
run in uncontrolled temperature environments.

Maybe the test would be to measure the current draw over temperature,
when the box thinks it is warm enough it will stop heating the cell and
xo and so that is where it was designed to sit. I will also save you $$s
in electricity. Downside could be that hotter parts degrade faster.

What about placing thermal insulation around the oven or even the
entire unit if the heat leakage is kept greater than the total
dissipation?

I
I would think that some well tuned passive or active thermal control 
will help stability as some have reported, but I don't think going out 
to cool at all costs is productive.


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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[David]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:47:47 +0100, mike cook 
wrote:

>Le 06/01/2012 17:02, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R a écrit :
>> The Tech Manual does not call for heat sinking (unless I missed 
>> something).
>> The top has labels over much of the surface.
>> The bottom has a plastic sheet between the circuitry and bottom plate.
>Yes, I am inclined to agree as I suspect these devices were designed to 
>run in uncontrolled temperature environments.
>
>Maybe the test would be to measure the current draw over temperature, 
>when the box thinks it is warm enough it will stop heating the cell and 
>xo and so that is where it was designed to sit. I will also save you $$s 
>in electricity. Downside could be that hotter parts degrade faster.

What about placing thermal insulation around the oven or even the
entire unit if the heat leakage is kept greater than the total
dissipation?

I have occasionally used a Dixie cup for thermal isolation but the
only place I have used active thermal control is logarithm and
exponential amplifiers.

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Re: [time-nuts] Leap second

[Alberto di Bene]

On 1/5/2012 11:26 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote:
> Leap second has been announced for July.
>
> Jim

Yes, this was copied from another list :

>Subject: Bulletin C number 43
>
>
>
>
> INTERNATIONAL EARTH ROTATION AND REFERENCE SYSTEMS SERVICE (IERS)
>
>SERVICE INTERNATIONAL DE LA ROTATION TERRESTRE ET DES SYSTEMES DE
>REFERENCE
>
>SERVICE DE LA ROTATION TERRESTRE
>OBSERVATOIRE DE PARIS
>61, Av. de l'Observatoire 75014 PARIS (France)
>Tel.  : 33 (0) 1 40 51 22 26
>FAX   : 33 (0) 1 40 51 22 91
>e-mail: services.i...@obspm.fr
>http://hpiers.obspm.fr/eop-pc
>
> Paris, 5 January 2012
>  
> Bulletin C 43
>  
> To authorities responsible
> for the measurement and
> distribution of time
>
>
> UTC TIME STEP
> on the 1st of July 2012
>  
>
> A positive leap second will be introduced at the end of June 2012.
> The sequence of dates of the UTC second markers will be:  
>   
> 2012 June 30, 23h 59m 59s
> 2012 June 30, 23h 59m 60s
> 2012 July  1,  0h  0m  0s
>  
> The difference between UTC and the International Atomic Time TAI is:
>
>  from 2009 January 1, 0h UTC, to 2012 July 1  0h UTC  : UTC-TAI = - 34s
>  from 2012 July 1,0h UTC, until further notice: UTC-TAI = - 35s
>  
> Leap seconds can be introduced in UTC at the end of the months of
>December  or June, depending on the evolution of UT1-TAI. Bulletin C is
>mailed every  six months, either to announce a time step in UTC or to
>confirm that there  will be no time step at the next possible date.
> 
>
>
> Daniel GAMBIS
> Head  
> Earth Orientation Center of IERS
> Observatoire de Paris, France
>
>__
>

73  Alberto  I2PHD


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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[mike cook]

Le 06/01/2012 17:02, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R a écrit :
The Tech Manual does not call for heat sinking (unless I missed 
something).

The top has labels over much of the surface.
The bottom has a plastic sheet between the circuitry and bottom plate.
Yes, I am inclined to agree as I suspect these devices were designed to 
run in uncontrolled temperature environments.


Maybe the test would be to measure the current draw over temperature, 
when the box thinks it is warm enough it will stop heating the cell and 
xo and so that is where it was designed to sit. I will also save you $$s 
in electricity. Downside could be that hotter parts degrade faster.


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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[Peter Gottlieb]

   A heat sink may not be required, per se, although I would expect that a
   larger thermal mass and/or thermal regulation via a closed loop fan
   controller will help smooth out/stabilize temperature effects.


   On 01/06/12, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R wrote:

   The Tech Manual does not call for heat sinking (unless I missed
   something).
   The top has labels over much of the surface.
   The bottom has a plastic sheet between the circuitry and bottom plate.
   It appears the unit was expected to be rather hot when running.
   I have mine mounted on the out side of the box using standoffs.
   On 01/06/2012 07:39 AM, Bob Smither wrote:
   > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
   > Hash: SHA1
   >
   > Chris Albertson wrote:
   >> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 6:11 PM,<[1]time-n...@custodes.info> wrote:
   >>
   >>> l<[2]http://www.freqelec.com/rb_osc_fe5680a.html> says 32W peak,
   but then
   >>> also 15-18v@700mA, which doesn't make sense.
   >>
   >> It will pull 35W for the first five or so minutes then the current
   drops
   >> rather suddenly to about 700mA.
   >>
   >> I have an analog amp meter on my power supply and I can see a switch
   over
   >> after the unit heats up. They must run an internal oven heater full
   tilt
   >> at first then go into regulated mode.
   >>
   >> Some one else said you can cause the FE5680 to draw more power in
   steady
   >> state mode by adding heat sinking it. Yes that works. Seems the
   FE5680
   >> wants to be at some set temperature and the heat sink means it takes
   more
   >> power to keep at the set point. I just let the fe5680 rest on a
   small
   >> aluminum plate.
   > Have you measured the case temperature of your FE5680?
   >
   > I put mine on a heat sink and the case temperature stays around 50C.
   Without
   > the heat sink it was around 60C. Does anyone know what temperature is
   > recommended? The 50C seems a little hot, but the unit appears to work
   well.
   >
   > - --
   > Bob Smither, PhD Circuit Concepts, Inc.
   >
   ===
   ==
   > Government is not healthy for children and other living things.
   > -- Jeff Daiell
   >
   ===
   ==
   > [3]smit...@c-c-i.com [4]http://www.C-C-I.Com 281-331-2744(office)
   -4616(fax)
   > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
   > Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
   > Comment: Using GnuPG with CentOS - [5]http://enigmail.mozdev.org
   >
   > iD8DBQFPBxXFsmY7BY+CYksRAlutAJ9R9STR0oja4ib1CjKXLEfGe3uXpgCfRW8D
   > m78FO0Trn+6bIBPKrNs8PVQ=
   > =FdtA
   > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
   >
   >
   > ___
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   > To unsubscribe, go to
   [7]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
   > and follow the instructions there.
   --
   Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R [8]c...@omen.com [9]www.omen.com
   Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
   Omen Technology Inc "The High Reliability Software"
   10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430
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References

   1. mailto:time-n...@custodes.info
   2. http://www.freqelec.com/rb_osc_fe5680a.html
   3. mailto:smit...@c-c-i.com
   4. http://www.C-C-I.Com/
   5. http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
   6. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
   7. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
   8. mailto:c...@omen.com
   9. http://www.omen.com/
  10. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
  11. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R]

The Tech Manual does not call for heat sinking (unless I missed something).
The top has labels over much of the surface.
The bottom has a plastic sheet between the circuitry and bottom plate.

It appears the unit was expected to be rather hot when running.
I have mine mounted on the out side of the box using standoffs.

On 01/06/2012 07:39 AM, Bob Smither wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Chris Albertson wrote:

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 6:11 PM,  wrote:


l  says 32W peak, but then
also 15-18v@700mA, which doesn't make sense.


It will pull 35W for the first five or so minutes then the current drops
rather suddenly to about 700mA.

I have an analog amp meter on my power supply and I can see a switch over
after the unit heats up.   They must run an internal oven heater full tilt
at first then go into regulated mode.

Some one else said you can cause the FE5680 to draw more power in steady
state mode by adding heat sinking it.  Yes that works.  Seems the FE5680
wants to be at some set temperature and the heat sink means it takes more
power to keep at the set point.   I just let the fe5680 rest on a small
aluminum plate.

Have you measured the case temperature of your FE5680?

I put mine on a heat sink and the case temperature stays around 50C.  Without
the heat sink it was around 60C.  Does anyone know what temperature is
recommended?  The 50C seems a little hot, but the unit appears to work well.

- --
Bob Smither, PhD   Circuit Concepts, Inc.
=
  Government is not healthy for children and other living things.
-- Jeff Daiell
=
smit...@c-c-i.com  http://www.C-C-I.Com  281-331-2744(office)  -4616(fax)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with CentOS - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFPBxXFsmY7BY+CYksRAlutAJ9R9STR0oja4ib1CjKXLEfGe3uXpgCfRW8D
m78FO0Trn+6bIBPKrNs8PVQ=
=FdtA
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
  Omen Technology Inc  "The High Reliability Software"
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430

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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[Bob Smither]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Chris Albertson wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 6:11 PM,  wrote:
> 
>> l  says 32W peak, but then
>> also 15-18v@700mA, which doesn't make sense.
> 
> 
> It will pull 35W for the first five or so minutes then the current drops
> rather suddenly to about 700mA.
> 
> I have an analog amp meter on my power supply and I can see a switch over
> after the unit heats up.   They must run an internal oven heater full tilt
> at first then go into regulated mode.
> 
> Some one else said you can cause the FE5680 to draw more power in steady
> state mode by adding heat sinking it.  Yes that works.  Seems the FE5680
> wants to be at some set temperature and the heat sink means it takes more
> power to keep at the set point.   I just let the fe5680 rest on a small
> aluminum plate.

Have you measured the case temperature of your FE5680?

I put mine on a heat sink and the case temperature stays around 50C.  Without
the heat sink it was around 60C.  Does anyone know what temperature is
recommended?  The 50C seems a little hot, but the unit appears to work well.

- --
Bob Smither, PhD   Circuit Concepts, Inc.
=
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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 90, Issue 38

[Jerry]

I have found that my FE-5680A of the latest crop will run fine from a
+12 volt supply turned up to 13.8 or so with a 5 v regulator for the
secondary voltage.  This works well for a battery operated reference
in the field.
W5RCQ

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 5:00 AM,   wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. FEI 5680A Power (ewkeh...@aol.com)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 06:29:26 -0500 (EST)
> From: ewkeh...@aol.com
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] FEI 5680A Power
> Message-ID: <7593.3c66bc8e.3c383...@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> The test I have been conducting for the last 6 weeks uses a 15V 3A Toshiba
> switcher feeding the 5680A through a filter and a 78M05 for the five volts.
> For  the last 5 weeks I have temperature control and I still se no aging.
> As I  mentioned before I read 1E-12 over 1000 seconds since Tbolt variations
> exceed  1E-11 at a second.  Can not explain why I see no aging. Heat sink is
> at  37.2 C   Once I have established aging I will interface it to a Shera
> controller.
> Bert Kehren
> PS with our cold spell I let the temperature in the lab drop 5 C and the
> fan duty cycle went from 39% to 7 %!
>
>
>
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> End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 90, Issue 38
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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[time-nuts]

On Jan 5, 2012, at 9:55 PM, time-n...@custodes.info wrote:

> 
> On Jan 5, 2012, at 9:33 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
>> Most laptop supplies operate around 19 or 20 volts. Its a good place to 
>> start if you want to get 15V through a linear regulator.
>> 
>> I have used Nintendo Wii supplies for 12V applications that require less 
>> than 3.5A. Chinese clones of those can be bought on eBay for less than $10 
>> with shipping.
>> 
>> Didier KO4BB
>> 
>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
> 
> So a cheap switcher down to 18-20v and a pair of linear regulators to get the 
> 5 and 15v? I was hoping for something more off-the-shelf; my T-bolt is 
> running off the power supply in the TAPR/tvb group buy from a few years ago.

What about a Mean Well DR-4515, 
 
and a 7805? 15v at 2.8A with 240mVp-p max ripple.
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[time-nuts] FEI 5680A Power

[EWKehren]

 
The test I have been conducting for the last 6 weeks uses a 15V 3A Toshiba  
switcher feeding the 5680A through a filter and a 78M05 for the five volts. 
For  the last 5 weeks I have temperature control and I still se no aging. 
As I  mentioned before I read 1E-12 over 1000 seconds since Tbolt variations 
exceed  1E-11 at a second.  Can not explain why I see no aging. Heat sink is 
at  37.2 C   Once I have established aging I will interface it to a Shera  
controller. 
Bert Kehren
PS with our cold spell I let the temperature in the lab drop 5 C and the  
fan duty cycle went from 39% to 7 %!
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for 'Bay FE-5680A?

[Max Skop]

Hi all,
The power supply that I ordered from ebay is a 15Volt 2Amp switcher as
follows:
15V 2A 30W Single Output Switching Power Supply
Voltage...(280764693188)
 cost   AU$13.00 inc postage.
Its small and easy to use.  For the 5Volt either a 7805 or a dc-dc switcher
that are available on ebay for very little.


Regards
Max


On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Orin Eman  wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 6:11 PM,  wrote:
>
> > Thanks, but what are people using to feed it? I'm having trouble pinning
> > down power requirements. http://www.freqelec.com/rb_osc_fe5680a.htmlsays
> > 32W peak, but then also 15-18v@700mA, which doesn't make sense. I'm
> still
> > waiting on the slow boat from China, so I have a while to find a power
> > supply.
> >
>
>
> I'm using a Mastech HY5020E* set to 15V to test mine.  Yes, complete
> overkill, but it's the only supply I have that will do > 1A at 15V.  14V
> would have been easy.  I supplied the 5V with a 7805 (I left the 5680
> screwed to the circuit board it came on and held the 7805 down with one of
> the allen screws).  BTW, the wires from the plug to the circuit board were
> standard color code, matching the pin numbers, so it was really easy to
> wire up by cutting and splicing the existing wires (with a little heat
> shrink tubing to keep things honest).
>
> The Mastech shows 1.8A to start, dropping to 0.8A after a few minutes,
> including whatever the 7805/5V line is using.
>
> *the HY5020E gets really confused when you turn it off.  As the voltage
> drops - it seems to flip back and forth between constant current and
> constant voltage modes for many seconds, blinking its displays and LEDs on
> and off!
>
> Orin, KJ7HQ.
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