Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <04f001cd151c$d58ede30$80ac9a90$@pop.net>, "John Miles" writes:

>The errata file in the same directory mentions the
>correct DIP switch setting for the OA DAC control adjustment, but the test
>limit voltage range is also different from one counter to the next, and from
>one edition of the manual to the next (while still being consistently wrong
>in my experience).

This is the kind of important and detailed information I really
wish we would collect in a wiki somewhere...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Holy cesium clock, Batman!

[Rex]

On 4/7/2012 5:59 PM, Mark Sims wrote:

One of the nose-bleed channels (MeTV) just showed an old 1980's Batman show...


For a time nut, you are off by at least 14 years. (1980 - 1966 = 14)

The Clock King's Crazy Crimes  October 12, 1966
The Clock King Gets Crowned   October 13, 1966

The ABC television network went on the air on April 19, 1948. So I 
calculate the error as over 70%.


But, how much DID a cesium clock cost in 1966?



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Re: [time-nuts] Austron 2201, Tbolt, HP 3801 comparison question

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

Ulrich wrote:


The Smartclock in difference seems to be able to adapt regulation
parameters to its "measurements" of ocxo stability and long term drift.


I do not know any details about Smartclock, but I believe one of the 
things it does is to adjust the oscillator disciplining parameters 
(primarily the loop time constant, I suspect, but perhaps more) to 
allow 3801s to reacquire lock quickly after a holdover event (or at 
startup), then switch to parameters that reduce the deviation once it 
is firmly locked.  You have to do that manually with a Tbolt if you 
want both quick lock and best stability once locked.


It may also do as you suggest -- use heuristic methods to tweak the 
"low deviation" discipline parameters -- but I do not know if that is 
the case or, if so, if it is better than Kalman filtering.


Best regards,

Charles







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[time-nuts] 1PPS correction

[Rich and Marcia Putz]

Two thoughts;  First Thought,the clock in a Jupiter-T is 40Mhz, that's 4 times 
10 Mhz last time I checked. Could not one of the Simple GPSDOs use the OCXO 
multiplied by 4 to become the receivers clock? Wouldn't that eliminate the 
hanging bridges?

Second thought, as I was reading recent threads about reverse engineering Smart 
Clock and other things I was recalling that I've heard we're all just six 
degrees of separation from anyone on earth ie. the dear leader of north Korea 
etc, yet no one of us can ever find anyone who worked on a T-Bolt or at 
Symmetricom or Efratom or FEI or..

Just thoughts;
Rich
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Re: [time-nuts] Holy cesium clock, Batman!

[Brent Gordon]

Same Bat Time!
Same Bat Channel!

On 4/7/2012 8:38 PM, J. Forster wrote:

So, what's the time?

-John

-



On 08/04/12 02:59, Mark Sims wrote:

One of the nose-bleed channels (MeTV) just showed an old 1980's Batman
show where the infamous, evil,  dastardly villain Clock King attempted
to steal a Cesium Clock (worth over one million dollars!).  He was
unsuccessful and is still out there.   All time-nuts,  protect  your
Cesium Clocks!  We cannot let him be successful in obtaining this vital
technology.  http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/The_Clock_King_(Walter_Slezak)

(BTW,  did you know there is a town named Batman in Turkey?)


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Re: [time-nuts] Holy cesium clock, Batman!

[J. Forster]

So, what's the time?

-John

-


> On 08/04/12 02:59, Mark Sims wrote:
>>
>> One of the nose-bleed channels (MeTV) just showed an old 1980's Batman
>> show where the infamous, evil,  dastardly villain Clock King attempted
>> to steal a Cesium Clock (worth over one million dollars!).  He was
>> unsuccessful and is still out there.   All time-nuts,  protect  your
>> Cesium Clocks!  We cannot let him be successful in obtaining this vital
>> technology.  http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/The_Clock_King_(Walter_Slezak)
>>
>> (BTW,  did you know there is a town named Batman in Turkey?)
>
> Oups, there is currently 7 caesium clocks in my lab (not all mine) and
> I'm not there to protect them all. Lost count of rubidium...
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Holy cesium clock, Batman!

[Magnus Danielson]

On 08/04/12 02:59, Mark Sims wrote:


One of the nose-bleed channels (MeTV) just showed an old 1980's Batman show 
where the infamous, evil,  dastardly villain Clock King attempted to steal a 
Cesium Clock (worth over one million dollars!).  He was unsuccessful and is 
still out there.   All time-nuts,  protect  your Cesium Clocks!  We cannot let 
him be successful in obtaining this vital technology.  
http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/The_Clock_King_(Walter_Slezak)

(BTW,  did you know there is a town named Batman in Turkey?)


Oups, there is currently 7 caesium clocks in my lab (not all mine) and 
I'm not there to protect them all. Lost count of rubidium...


Cheers,
Magnus

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[time-nuts] Holy cesium clock, Batman!

[Mark Sims]

One of the nose-bleed channels (MeTV) just showed an old 1980's Batman show 
where the infamous, evil,  dastardly villain Clock King attempted to steal a 
Cesium Clock (worth over one million dollars!).  He was unsuccessful and is 
still out there.   All time-nuts,  protect  your Cesium Clocks!  We cannot let 
him be successful in obtaining this vital technology.  
http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/The_Clock_King_(Walter_Slezak)

(BTW,  did you know there is a town named Batman in Turkey?)
  
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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[John Miles]

It looks great, if we're talking about the zipped 150+ MB file.  OCR never
works 100%, but the originally rendered text seems to be intact everywhere,
unlike cases where the scan program tries to replace it.  

Unfortunately some of the most confusing errors were part of the manual as
originally printed.  The errata file in the same directory mentions the
correct DIP switch setting for the OA DAC control adjustment, but the test
limit voltage range is also different from one counter to the next, and from
one edition of the manual to the next (while still being consistently wrong
in my experience).

-- john


> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-
> boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Roberto Barrios
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:44 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?
> 
> 
> It was me who created the PDF. I did not scan the pages, I took individual
> files for individual pages from KO4BB site. Hardest work was manual
> stitching of the schematics. Also created bookmarks for all the sections
> manually. Automatic OCR was done by Adobe Acrobat, I did not review the
> result, it may be far from perfect, but still useful. Regards,Roberto
EB4EQA>
> From: jmi...@pop.net
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 13:34:39 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?
> >
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-
> > > boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dave M
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 12:51 PM
> > > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?
> > >
> > > > From: paul swed 
> > >
> > > > Send it to didiers site KO4bb. Thats a good place to share it from.
> >
> > As noted about 8 messages ago, it's already there.  Not sure who
> submitted
> > it or when, but it's a nice, clean scan of the S/N 2904 edition, and
> > pre-OCR'ed.
> >
> > -- john
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-
> bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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> 
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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Javier Herrero]

Hi, Jim,

I will ask off-list to reduce noise... :)

El 08/04/2012 00:29, Jim Lux escribió:




If you need a 64 bit timer core with a bunch of latches and a 
programmable pulse generator, let me know.  We've got one at JPL we're 
happy to distribute (for free).


I take good note. This is the kind of things that comes handy from time 
to time :)
Goddard Space FLight Center has a variety of SpaceWire cores (in 
VHDL), and we've got a Verilog wrapper for it at JPL.
GSF SpW cores are available for free? Or are even available for non-US? 
One of the things that I plan to do sometime is an SpW implementation, 
mainly for instrument EGSEs - probably will try in the near future if 
one of my customers wins a project and contracts us the EGSE. We are 
currently using SpW cards from Dynamic Engineering, but sincerely I'm 
not too happy with their support. For internal use, we have a Star 
Dundee SpW USB brick, but I find that SpW boards from Star Dundee are 
expensive and only with 3 ports - and we usually need 4 (you know, 
nominal and redundant I/Fs to both nominal and redundant instruments :) ).


There are some "free" SpW ESA cores. The fun part is that they are free 
except for a 5000 EUR management fee...


Best regards,

Javier

--

Javier Herrero
Chief Technology Officer  EMAIL: jherr...@hvsistemas.com
HV Sistemas S.L.  PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX:   +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain  WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Austron 2201, Tbolt, HP 3801 comparison question

[paul swed]

Thanks everyone for the comments
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:

> Hi Ulrich,
>
> I want to re-iterate how difficult it is to compare one make of GPSDO
> with another. A lot depends on antenna, and software configuration,
> environmental controls, and the particular OCXO that you happen to
> get with the unit. You can see significant difference in N TBolts; you
> can see significant differences in N HP Smartclock's.
>
> I don't believe there's anything magic about the hp Smartclock. The
> main goal back then was to reduce the effects of S/A. Maybe that
> was clever 15 years ago, but S/A hasn't been around for a decade.
>
> In order to investigate the Smartclock algorithms in detail it would
> be possible to replace their algorithm with your own. That is, take
> a 58503 or Z3801 and keep the Oncore, keep the OCXO, keep
> the DAC, keep the p.s., but insert your own TIC and your own
> PC-based disciplining algorithm. FYI: here's info on their DAC:
> http://leapsecond.com/pages/**z3801a-efc/
>
> If without too much effort you match HP's performance, then there
> is no magic in Smartclock. In other words, the performance they
> get is mostly the Oncore and the 10811 and a decent TIC & DAC
> and nothing extraordinary about the software.
>
> On the other hand, if after weeks of work HP still beats your best
> effort, then I would agree there's something clever and hidden in
> their implementation.
>
> Realize that the HP Smartclock was one of the very first GPSDO.
> Since then there have been tens (hundreds?) of different GPSDO
> products, both commercial and amateur. It's really hard for me to
> believe that any stone has been left unturned.
>
> Still, I welcome anyone who wants to test the Smartclock algorithm
> as suggested above. If you have the time but not the Smartclock,
> let me know and I'll make a loaner available.
>
> Thanks,
> /tvb
>
> - Original Message - From: "Ulrich Bangert" <
> df...@ulrich-bangert.de>
> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 3:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 2201, Tbolt, HP 3801 comparison question
>
>
>
>  Gents,
>>
>> one of the things that MAY be responsible for the differences in
>> performance
>> is that the Z3801 uses HP's Smartclock technology while the TBolt does
>> not.
>> The TBolt works with a fixed set of parameters (unless we change them)
>> which's default values are far from optimal but ensure a fast lock of the
>> pll. The Smartclock in difference seems to be able to adapt regulation
>> parameters to its "measurements" of ocxo stability and long term drift.
>> Unfortunately there are only a very limited number of publications
>> available
>> about Smartclock technology with most of them only scratching the surface.
>> That is why I believe that HP & Agilent still make a big secret out of it
>> even today. I guess we time nuts could learn a lot if we had an in depth
>> description available on how Smartclock works.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Ulrich Bangert
>>
>>> -Ursprungliche Nachricht-
>>> Von: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com 
>>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@**febo.com]
>>> Im Auftrag von paul swed
>>> Gesendet: Samstag, 7. April 2012 02:09
>>> An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 2201, Tbolt, HP 3801 comparison question
>>>
>>>
>>> A lot of great comments.
>>> Hope I do not drop any responses.
>>> I am sure its older also it was $135 and picked it up recently. Have to
>>> say for the $ its actually quite fine and I am happy.
>>>
>>> I have had the 3801 at least 10 years now. Picked it up early on and did
>>> some of the original tinkering and reverse engineering. So perhaps is does
>>> have the better oven. I m looking at what the 38xx software program says
>>> its doing at the numbers match the 2201 very nicely. So beginning to
>>> believe that what the 2201 says may be pretty accurate..
>>>
>>> Tom asked if someone was going to make down converters. I might believe
>>> that I was involved in those threads. But it would have been attempt to
>>> make. Not produce. I have produced 2 main approaches with a number of other
>>> sub approaches. They do not emulate the RF down converter but are dependent
>>> on older less integrated receivers. The key is being able to get to the
>>> signals.
>>>
>>> First version
>>> Used the odetics antenna and then up converting the 35.42 to 75.42 Mhz.
>>> Easy to say harder to implement then imagined. plus building a 10 Mhz to 40
>>> Mhz multiplier. though this all worked for a year I don't think many could
>>> reproduce it.
>>>
>>> Second most recent approach thats really working very well.
>>> A novatel starview 2 receiever provided by another Time-nut. The G2015
>>> chips quite a jewel. Its made by zarlink now for $7.50. Any how it produces
>>> a 40 Mhz clock and has nice filtering and such for the 35 Mhz.

Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Javier Herrero]

El 08/04/2012 00:21, Jim Lux escribió:

On 4/7/12 10:08 AM, Javier Herrero wrote:

El 07/04/2012 16:02, Jim Lux escribió:



RTEMS might be just what you need.  Kernel, basic OS calls for 
scheduling, queues, etc. It's nice when you decide you want threading 
to not have to graft it into a "big loop no-OS" style program.


You can use native calls or POSIX style (I like POSIX, because I can 
develop on Linux and just recompile for the RTEMS target).


There's all the usual GDB support as well.




Yes, it is starting to seem that would fit my needs for this project 
very nicely.






Device drivers are easy to write for RTEMS, and it has VERY fast ISRs. 
That's probably one of the big advantages..


I would say that one of the most important for me. Sometimes I've dealed 
with Xenomai/Adeos and uClinux when Linux latencies and worse, latency 
uncertainities, but things then start to be a bit complicated...




It's a small footprint, stripped down RTOS, but because you can work 
with POSIX API calls, you can do most of your development in Linux 
(particuarly things like calibration interfaces and computational 
stuff) and then it ports very easily when you move it to RTEMS on the 
target.




Looks very good for several of my usual applications, where bare metal 
sometimes requires too much work, and Linux requires too much footprint 
:) Also, to support POSIX style is a great advantage.


I've had a quick look around www.rtems.org, and I see that it is also 
ported to Blackfin, so it will also fit my usual ADSP-BF532 based 
platform. I hope that the learning curve will not be too steep :)


Thanks for the info. Best regards,

Javier

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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Jim Lux]

On 4/7/12 8:57 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

If you are looking for free soft core CPUs for use in an FPGA then look here:
http://opencores.org/projects
Look under "processors" for many CPU cores.   They also have some
Eithernet controllers you'd need.


Like all things opencores/sourceforge/etc  you need to examine whats out 
there...


We've used a SDRAM controller from opencores (and modified it for our 
puproses) and it works pretty well.  Some other stuff, maybe not so 
finished and ready for use.


It all depends on provenance

To blow our horn a bit, we've got some useful building blocks available 
for free.. We are targeting Xilinx Virtex II, but they're designed to be 
pretty generic Verilog for any target.



If you need a 64 bit timer core with a bunch of latches and a 
programmable pulse generator, let me know.  We've got one at JPL we're 
happy to distribute (for free).


Goddard Space FLight Center has a variety of SpaceWire cores (in VHDL), 
and we've got a Verilog wrapper for it at JPL.


Simple cores to do things like record samples from an ADC into a giant 
SDRAM buffer or play back samples from SDRAM into a DAC, we've also got. 
 You want that digital oscilloscope or ARB with a 10s of MegaSample 
buffer.. we've got it.



Gaisler has a lot of useful, well debugged, cores for free.. Ethernet, 
RAM controlkers, various other peripherals.




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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Jim Lux]

On 4/7/12 10:08 AM, Javier Herrero wrote:

El 07/04/2012 16:02, Jim Lux escribió:




RTEMS wise... It's pretty well supported by the community, it's open
source, it does all the stuff you want a RTOS to do. it's NOT a
multitasking, dynamic loading OS like Linux. That is it doesn't
support an MMU and process space isolation (although that might be
possible in newer versions.. there's a lot of configurability). It's
basically a statically linked single task with threads. They've got
RAM (and disk) file systems, IP stacks, a shell, YAFFS, etc.

But there's also a core of users who are serious and rigorous and
contribute back, so the main stuff in the distribution from Joel
Sherrill at OAR (who make RTEMS) is pretty rock solid.

I will learn more about RTEMS. For the application I've (and this links
directly to the message from Javier Serrano), the hardware platform is
one of the CERN Open Hardware ones, the SPEC. For the purpose and
interface needs, really an operating system is not required (no
filesystem, no TCP/IP needed, no multitasking, no framebuffer...), and
certainly a Linux would have a very large footprint without providing
any real help.


RTEMS might be just what you need.  Kernel, basic OS calls for 
scheduling, queues, etc. It's nice when you decide you want threading to 
not have to graft it into a "big loop no-OS" style program.


You can use native calls or POSIX style (I like POSIX, because I can 
develop on Linux and just recompile for the RTEMS target).


There's all the usual GDB support as well.



And about the processor selection, the trade-off that

Javier exposes are the same I'm confronting. Both are open-sourced and
well supported, and in one side the LM32 is smaller, in the other the
LEON3 has more capabilities that can be implemented or not (like MMU or
FPU, and better multi-core support, although not currently needed in my
project). I probably will take the LEON3 road, but also because it is
more popular in my current field, but for now I usually do not need the
FT version since I'm more related with GSEs.


And that's good because the FT version costs money, but the regular old 
LEON2 and LEON3 are free, and pretty bulletproof by now.






ESA has several rigorously verified flight qualified versions of RTEMS
(in Portugal and Austria, as I recall)


Yes, this is one of the reasons to gain experience in that road :) I
have some tendency to stay in Linux because I'm very familiarized with
it in the non-MMU implementations (for Blackfin) and also with MMU - and
I've found that for a small embedded system, to have the MMU is not so
important, even sometimes it is a drawback.



Device drivers are easy to write for RTEMS, and it has VERY fast ISRs. 
That's probably one of the big advantages..


It's a small footprint, stripped down RTOS, but because you can work 
with POSIX API calls, you can do most of your development in Linux 
(particuarly things like calibration interfaces and computational stuff) 
and then it ports very easily when you move it to RTEMS on the target.



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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[Roberto Barrios]

It was me who created the PDF. I did not scan the pages, I took individual 
files for individual pages from KO4BB site. Hardest work was manual stitching 
of the schematics. Also created bookmarks for all the sections manually. 
Automatic OCR was done by Adobe Acrobat, I did not review the result, it may be 
far from perfect, but still useful. Regards,Roberto EB4EQA> From: jmi...@pop.net
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 13:34:39 -0700
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?
> 
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-
> > boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dave M
> > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 12:51 PM
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?
> > 
> > > From: paul swed 
> > 
> > > Send it to didiers site KO4bb. Thats a good place to share it from.
> 
> As noted about 8 messages ago, it's already there.  Not sure who submitted
> it or when, but it's a nice, clean scan of the S/N 2904 edition, and
> pre-OCR'ed.   
> 
> -- john
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[John Miles]

> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-
> boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dave M
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 12:51 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?
> 
> > From: paul swed 
> 
> > Send it to didiers site KO4bb. Thats a good place to share it from.

As noted about 8 messages ago, it's already there.  Not sure who submitted
it or when, but it's a nice, clean scan of the S/N 2904 edition, and
pre-OCR'ed.   

-- john


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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[Dave M]

From: paul swed 



Send it to diddiers site KO4bb. Thats a good place to share it from.

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Dave M 
wrote:


From: Ed Palmer 


Is there a pdf of the HP 5370B Manual that allows you to search for 
text?

Thanks in advance,
Ed


I have a copy of the 5370B O/S manual that has been OCRed, and is
searchable.  It is, however, over 150Mb in size, so not emailable.
If you give me a day or so, I can attempt to reduce that file size
to something more easily handled.  It's a high quality scan; not
like the scanned
manuals that you'll find on the Agilent site.

When I get it ready, I'll upload it to a file share site where you
can download it.

Dave M



Don't know if the manual that I have is the same as the one on the KO4BB 
site.  Don't remember where I got my copy.
Here's a link to download the ~60 Mb PDF that I have. 
http://www.ge.tt/96H8s1G/v/0?c
I also uploaded it to the KO4BB site.  It should be available for download 
there in a day or two.

Hope it helps.

Dave M
A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after
that is the beginning of a new argument. 




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Re: [time-nuts] 1 pps correction

[Chris Albertson]

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 11:45 AM,   wrote:
> Chris
>  do you or any one else have a micro controller and code for  such an 8 pin
> solution? The rest I would know how to do.

That is what I wrote about earlier, few people have the technical
skill to do every part of a design.   No I don't have a finished part
but it's a one hour job.  The software would work like this:

1) Read a line of text from serial port
2) Is it a sawtooth correction message?
3) If "no" go to #1 above

4) Extract value from message
5) Multiply value by a scale factor so it "fits" best inside the DAC's
10 or 8 bit range
6) Send the scaled value to the DAC pin.
7) go to #1.

In "C" you use while loops rather than a go toe but it's the same thing.

A good way to develop a prototype would be to use an Aruino.   It's a
$40 development system so it is about 20 times over priced but it is
VERY easy to use and set up so non-programmers can learn to use it
quickly.  Once the software works on the Arduino it is not hard to
move to the Tiny AVR (which by the way cane very tiny, ilk an 8-pin
SMD chip.)





> Bert Kehren
>
>
>
> In a message dated 4/7/2012 12:12:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> albertson.ch...@gmail.com writes:
>
> The  simplest way to do this is to use a "standard" GPS and let if
> drive a  GPSDO.  Yes you can try and build a copy of a T-bolt but how
> many  engineering ours do you think Trimble spent on that?  Well over a
> man  year I'd say and few people have the range of skills needed to do
> it all  themselves.
>
> If you want to use the sawtooth data in the GPSDO then  you'd need a
> one of those very small 8-pin micro controllers.  It  could "tap" the
> serial line and listen for the sawtooth correction and then  output a
> voltage on an analog pin.   The sawtooth correction does  not change
> very fast so the bandwidth is low enough for something like an  AVR or
> PIC.  This uP would have only one function so the software  would be
> easy
> I think you'd use the analog sawtooth voltage to slightly  bias the
> phase detector.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 3:59 AM,  Attila Kinali  wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 Apr 2012  19:10:59 +
>> shali...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> It seems  to me that if standalone GPS timing receivers used a VCXO
>>> instead  of a fixed frequency clock, the cost delta would not be that
>>>  significant, and they too could avoid the need for sawtooth  correction.
>>
>> Not really. You'd need a low noise, low DNL, high  resolution DAC to
>> stear the VCXO. Analog electronic costs considerably  more than a tiny bit
>> of software and eats a lot more  power.
>>
>> Maybe you can get away with using one of the Silicon  Labs programmable
>> oscillators instead of a VCXO and a DAC. But IIRC  they only have a
>> frequency setting, no phase setting, so you need some  way to fix the
>> phase offset.
>>
>>        Attila  Kinali
>>
>>
>> --
>> Why does it take years to find the  answers to
>> the questions one should have asked long  ago?
>>
>> ___
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>
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo  Beach,  California
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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[time-nuts] T-Bolt with dead PPS and 10MHz output - how to repair?

[Alexander Kurpiers]

I got a Thunderbolt on Ebay and it appears to be running fine - just the PPS 
and 10MHz outputs stay silent.
But it seems to lock (according to the monitor program) and the site survey was 
completed without issues.
I'm pretty sure the OCXO works fine, otherwise it would not say it is locked 
would it?

After opening the Thunderbolt I could see that the 74AC04 driving the PPS 
output died and I see the PPS pulse on the input to this chip.
Unfortunately the 10MHz output does not seem to be an easy one: it only shows 
some 80Hz noise and no 10MHz.
In my case, the final output buffer U20 is a CLC453 
(http://www.national.com/opf/CL/CLC453.html) - but it appears to be ok, at 
least I have the same strange signal on the input, too.

I'm a bit lost without schematic now...

Regards,

Alexander DL8AAU/AB0CF

 



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Re: [time-nuts] 1 pps correction

[EWKehren]

Chris
 do you or any one else have a micro controller and code for  such an 8 pin 
solution? The rest I would know how to do.
Bert Kehren
 
 
 
In a message dated 4/7/2012 12:12:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
albertson.ch...@gmail.com writes:

The  simplest way to do this is to use a "standard" GPS and let if
drive a  GPSDO.  Yes you can try and build a copy of a T-bolt but how
many  engineering ours do you think Trimble spent on that?  Well over a
man  year I'd say and few people have the range of skills needed to do
it all  themselves.

If you want to use the sawtooth data in the GPSDO then  you'd need a
one of those very small 8-pin micro controllers.  It  could "tap" the
serial line and listen for the sawtooth correction and then  output a
voltage on an analog pin.   The sawtooth correction does  not change
very fast so the bandwidth is low enough for something like an  AVR or
PIC.  This uP would have only one function so the software  would be
easy
I think you'd use the analog sawtooth voltage to slightly  bias the
phase detector.



On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 3:59 AM,  Attila Kinali  wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Apr 2012  19:10:59 +
> shali...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> It seems  to me that if standalone GPS timing receivers used a VCXO
>> instead  of a fixed frequency clock, the cost delta would not be that
>>  significant, and they too could avoid the need for sawtooth  correction.
>
> Not really. You'd need a low noise, low DNL, high  resolution DAC to
> stear the VCXO. Analog electronic costs considerably  more than a tiny bit
> of software and eats a lot more  power.
>
> Maybe you can get away with using one of the Silicon  Labs programmable
> oscillators instead of a VCXO and a DAC. But IIRC  they only have a
> frequency setting, no phase setting, so you need some  way to fix the
> phase offset.
>
>Attila  Kinali
>
>
> --
> Why does it take years to find the  answers to
> the questions one should have asked long  ago?
>
> ___
>  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to  
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo  Beach,  California

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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Andrew Rodland]

Chris Albertson  writes:

> 
> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Andrew Rodland  wrote:
> 
> > Another option would be building something on an FPGA. This would be a
> > considerable stretch for me, since I've never done FPGA work, but if I build
> > from the ground up, I can have *very* tight control over things that are 
chosen
> > for me with a micro controller.
> 
> A compromise is to find a "soft core" for the FPGA.  This is a CPU
> implemented in FPGA and then it runs software just like a "real" CPU.
>  This would let you move your micro controller based be sign over to
> the FPGA quickly.   After that you can implement some specialized
> peripherals that do time stamping
> 
> How does the performance of the Arduino based NTP compare with what
> you could do with Linux on (say) and Atom or ARM processor?

Pretty well, I think. A PPS generated by my board shows an RMS absolute jitter 
of 174ns compared to a Spectracom 9183, which is almost impossibly good 
considering that all the timing is done off of a 2MHz clock.

As measured from the NTP side, the performance is diluted a lot by the fact 
that 
the W5100 ethernet chip has unknown and unpredictable delays, but it still 
comes 
back with a jitter of <20us (possibly better — the box I'm using to measure the 
NTP is a Linux machine that isn't really a timing champ. Wish I still had my 
net4801.)

Andrew


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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Javier Herrero]

El 07/04/2012 16:02, Jim Lux escribió:

On 4/7/12 4:47 AM, Javier Herrero wrote:

I'm very familiar with the LEON and RTEMS, having managed a software 
development project with it for the last 3 or 4 years at work.


http://www.gaisler.com/ for LEON
http://www.rtems.org/ for RTEMS

I will have a look to RTEMS


And yes, there is a port (maybe two) of Linux for the LEON as well (A 
few years ago, we loaded up the Snapgear port, but since we went 
RTEMS, I haven't fooled with it).  You'd have to check the Gaisler.com 
website.
I've done. The Snapgear port is quite old now, but the other port is 
actively maintained and updated with current kernel.


You can drop a LEON core into a Virtex II in about a day, and judging 
from the traffic on the LEON yahoo list (where the Gaisler folks hang 
out), lots of people are doing things like multiple cores and things 
on all manner of Xilinx eval boards.
And also for Altera (for example, the Terasic DE2-115 with a Cyclone IV) 
and others. I've seen you int that list :) An I've seen implementations 
for smaller FPGAs like the Spatarn 6LX25



RTEMS wise... It's pretty well supported by the community, it's open 
source, it does all the stuff you want a RTOS to do.  it's NOT a 
multitasking, dynamic loading OS like Linux.  That is it doesn't 
support an MMU and process space isolation (although that might be 
possible in newer versions.. there's a lot of configurability).  It's 
basically a statically linked single task with threads.  They've got 
RAM (and disk) file systems, IP stacks, a shell, YAFFS, etc.


Like all open source, there's quite a lot of interesting stuff 
available (not from rtems.org, but others) that is 90% complete.  
Somebody at Google Summer of Code or for their Masters decides to 
implement something cool, and gets most of the way done, then wanders 
away (the summer ended, they got their degree, the usual story).


But there's also a core of users who are serious and rigorous and 
contribute back, so the main stuff in the distribution from Joel 
Sherrill at OAR (who make RTEMS) is pretty rock solid. 
I will learn more about RTEMS. For the application I've (and this links 
directly to the message from Javier Serrano), the hardware platform is 
one of the CERN Open Hardware ones, the SPEC. For the purpose and 
interface needs, really an operating system is not required (no 
filesystem, no TCP/IP needed, no multitasking, no framebuffer...), and 
certainly a Linux would have a very large footprint without providing 
any real help. And about the processor selection, the trade-off that 
Javier exposes are the same I'm confronting. Both are open-sourced and 
well supported, and in one side the LM32 is smaller, in the other the 
LEON3 has more capabilities that can be implemented or not (like MMU or 
FPU, and better multi-core support, although not currently needed in my 
project). I probably will take the LEON3 road, but also because it is 
more popular in my current field, but for now I usually do not need the 
FT version since I'm more related with GSEs.



ESA has several rigorously verified flight qualified versions of RTEMS 
(in Portugal and Austria, as I recall)


Yes, this is one of the reasons to gain experience in that road :) I 
have some tendency to stay in Linux because I'm very familiarized with 
it in the non-MMU implementations (for Blackfin) and also with MMU - and 
I've found that for a small embedded system, to have the MMU is not so 
important, even sometimes it is a drawback.


In any case we are running a bit OT (except considering that this 
general discussion has timing applications, of course ;) ). Also I'm 
happy to have found a time-nut colleage in other list, and probably I 
will ask you some things about off-list in order to not increase noise, 
if possible.


Best regards,

Javier


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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Javier Herrero]

El 07/04/2012 18:17, shali...@gmail.com escribió:

When you install the Altera tools, it automatically installs NIOS and gcc. I 
assume there are no restrictions for private use, but you may have to send $ if 
you make a commercial product. That remains to be checked.

With the Quartus Web, you can use any Nios but in time limited form (1 
hour or so) or as long as the debug cable is tied to the PC. The only 
Nios free for use (commercial or private) is the Nios-II/e version. The 
only NIOS really useful, NIOS-II/f (with MMU, caches, and faster) is 
commercial, and the license pack inclding the triple speed ethernet core 
is $995. Also other IPs are commercial (like memory controllers, etc.)


Regards,

Javier

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[time-nuts] web site after death

[Stanley]

Wonder if any other owners of web sites have provided for adoption of their web 
sites after they are no longer able to support them or want to ? 

Stanley
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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[shalimr9]

When you install the Altera tools, it automatically installs NIOS and gcc. I 
assume there are no restrictions for private use, but you may have to send $ if 
you make a commercial product. That remains to be checked.

I have not used NIOS either.
Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: Azelio Boriani 
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 13:19:14 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

The Xilinx and Altera have their embedded CPUs (Microblaze and Nios) IP.
I'm not familiar with them and don't know how much they cost. Until now I
have developed on Xilinx 50Kgates FPGA and 128 cells CPLD with the Xilinx's
free tools.

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Chris Albertson
wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Andrew Rodland 
> wrote:
>
> > Another option would be building something on an FPGA. This would be a
> > considerable stretch for me, since I've never done FPGA work, but if I
> build
> > from the ground up, I can have *very* tight control over things that are
> chosen
> > for me with a micro controller.
>
>
> A compromise is to find a "soft core" for the FPGA.  This is a CPU
> implemented in FPGA and then it runs software just like a "real" CPU.
>  This would let you move your micro controller based be sign over to
> the FPGA quickly.   After that you can implement some specialized
> peripherals that do time stamping
>
>
> How does the performance of the Arduino based NTP compare with what
> you could do with Linux on (say) and Atom or ARM processor?
>
>
>
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[Randy D. Hunt]

On 4/6/2012 11:46 PM, Rix Seacord wrote:

Ed
Is that a function of the pdf file or the reader?
I've been  using Foxit Phantom that will even search multiple pdf 
files in the same folder.

Good luck in your quest.

Ewing (Rix) Seacord
K2AVP/4/499
eseac...@verizon.net

845-628-0892 Home
914-262-9186 Cell
914-233-3886 Skype Notebook


On 4/7/2012 12:00 AM, Ed Palmer wrote:
Is there a pdf of the HP 5370B Manual that allows you to search for 
text?


Thanks in advance,

Ed


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the reader
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Re: [time-nuts] 1 pps correction

[Chris Albertson]

The simplest way to do this is to use a "standard" GPS and let if
drive a GPSDO.  Yes you can try and build a copy of a T-bolt but how
many engineering ours do you think Trimble spent on that?  Well over a
man year I'd say and few people have the range of skills needed to do
it all themselves.

If you want to use the sawtooth data in the GPSDO then you'd need a
one of those very small 8-pin micro controllers.  It could "tap" the
serial line and listen for the sawtooth correction and then output a
voltage on an analog pin.   The sawtooth correction does not change
very fast so the bandwidth is low enough for something like an AVR or
PIC.  This uP would have only one function so the software would be
easy
I think you'd use the analog sawtooth voltage to slightly bias the
phase detector.



On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 3:59 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Apr 2012 19:10:59 +
> shali...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> It seems to me that if standalone GPS timing receivers used a VCXO
>> instead of a fixed frequency clock, the cost delta would not be that
>> significant, and they too could avoid the need for sawtooth correction.
>
> Not really. You'd need a low noise, low DNL, high resolution DAC to
> stear the VCXO. Analog electronic costs considerably more than a tiny bit
> of software and eats a lot more power.
>
> Maybe you can get away with using one of the Silicon Labs programmable
> oscillators instead of a VCXO and a DAC. But IIRC they only have a
> frequency setting, no phase setting, so you need some way to fix the
> phase offset.
>
>                        Attila Kinali
>
>
> --
> Why does it take years to find the answers to
> the questions one should have asked long ago?
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Javier Serrano]

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Javier Herrero  wrote:
> RTEMS also (see www.milkymist.org , an open source hardware and
> software project with an LM32 implementation on a Spartan 6 FPGA using
> RTEMS.

We use the LM32 (http://www.ohwr.org/projects/lm32) in the White
Rabbit and other projects. Here's a LibreOffice presentation on why it
was chosen: http://www.ohwr.org/attachments/download/559 It's smaller
than the LEON3 and more capable than the ZPU. We found it to be a good
compromise. The guys in GSI (a German Physics lab) developed a good
debugging tool for it (http://www.ohwr.org/projects/phase). Our PTP
stack (http://www.ohwr.org/projects/ppsi/wiki) will soon run on it.

Cheers,

Javier

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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[Ed Palmer]

Thanks Dave,

Is this the 134,440,033 byte one that's already on Didier's site ( 
http://www.ko4bb.com/manuals/index.php )?  I've already taken a look at 
that one.


Ed


On 4/7/2012 5:32 AM, Dave M wrote:

From: Ed Palmer 

Is there a pdf of the HP 5370B Manual that allows you to search for 
text?


Thanks in advance,

Ed



I have a copy of the 5370B O/S manual that has been OCRed, and is 
searchable.  It is, however, over 150Mb in size, so not emailable.  If 
you give me a day or so, I can attempt to reduce that file size to 
something more easily handled.  It's a high quality scan; not like the 
scanned manuals that you'll find on the Agilent site.


When I get it ready, I'll upload it to a file share site where you can 
download it.


Dave M
A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after
that is the beginning of a new argument.



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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Chris Albertson]

If you are looking for free soft core CPUs for use in an FPGA then look here:
http://opencores.org/projects
Look under "processors" for many CPU cores.   They also have some
Eithernet controllers you'd need.




On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 6:35 AM, cfo  wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Apr 2012 13:19:14 +0200, Azelio Boriani wrote:
>
>> The Xilinx and Altera have their embedded CPUs (Microblaze and Nios) IP.
>> I'm not familiar with them and don't know how much they cost. Until now
>> I have developed on Xilinx 50Kgates FPGA and 128 cells CPLD with the
>> Xilinx's free tools.
>>
> Maybe ZPU
> http://opensource.zylin.com/zpuref.html
> http://opencores.org/project,zpu
>
> http://embdev.net/articles/
> ZPU:_Softcore_implementation_on_a_Spartan-3_FPGA
>
> /Cfo
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[Ed Palmer]

Thanks John,

Unfortunately, that copy shows what happens when you don't do the 
post-OCR editing.  It was created with Adobe Acrobat which has really 
poor editing capabilities.  There are so many errors that I would be 
uncomfortable if I had to rely on the text.  The errors would cause me 
to miss a lot of information.


Ed

On 4/7/2012 3:05 AM, John Miles wrote:

The large (129 MB) copy in the Manuals section of www.ko4bb.com is
text-searchable.

-- john


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-
boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 12:41 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

In message<4f7fe2d1.4070...@verizon.net>, Rix Seacord writes:


Is that a function of the pdf file or the reader?

It can be both.

PDFs can have searchable indexes.

Readers can have OCR facilities, most don't.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
incompetence.



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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[Rix Seacord]

Ed
Thank you for the education. I didn't give it much thought the pdf file 
could consist of a bunch of scanned pages.
Funny I can come up with some old ball trouble shooting of boat anchors 
but not on this "modern" stuff.

Gotta look into this some more.

Ewing (Rix) Seacord
K2AVP/4/499
eseac...@verizon.net

845-628-0892 Home
914-262-9186 Cell
914-233-3886 Skype Notebook


On 4/7/2012 3:36 AM, Ed Palmer wrote:

Hi Ewing,

It's a function of the file.  Most of the old tech manuals we see are 
just pictures of text that have been scanned and put into a pdf file.  
There's no text so there's nothing to search.  It looks like Phantom 
has OCR capabilities so it should be able to take a non-searchable pdf 
and change it to a searchable pdf.  How well it does it and how much 
post-OCR editing is required is another matter.


Ed

On 4/7/2012 12:46 AM, Rix Seacord wrote:

Ed
Is that a function of the pdf file or the reader?
I've been  using Foxit Phantom that will even search multiple pdf 
files in the same folder.

Good luck in your quest.

Ewing (Rix) Seacord
K2AVP/4/499
eseac...@verizon.net

845-628-0892 Home
914-262-9186 Cell
914-233-3886 Skype Notebook


On 4/7/2012 12:00 AM, Ed Palmer wrote:
Is there a pdf of the HP 5370B Manual that allows you to search for 
text?


Thanks in advance,

Ed


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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[paul swed]

Send it to diddiers site KO4bb. Thats a good place to share it from.

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Dave M  wrote:

> From: Ed Palmer 
>>
>>
>> Is there a pdf of the HP 5370B Manual that allows you to search for text?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Ed
>>
>>
> I have a copy of the 5370B O/S manual that has been OCRed, and is
> searchable.  It is, however, over 150Mb in size, so not emailable.  If you
> give me a day or so, I can attempt to reduce that file size to something
> more easily handled.  It's a high quality scan; not like the scanned
> manuals that you'll find on the Agilent site.
>
> When I get it ready, I'll upload it to a file share site where you can
> download it.
>
> Dave M
> A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after
> that is the beginning of a new argument.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Opera coordinator has resigned

[Achim Vollhardt]

Hi Attila,
speaking about finger pointing, I would like to make clear, that the 
loose connector was on the italian (OPERA) side and not on the 
french-swiss side (CERN). The news articles all cited CERN got it wrong, 
but as a matter of fact it was OPERA.


Achim


I didn't questions his competency on complicated tasks.
But i questioned his finger pointing at the CERN guys.
Yes, you have to teach everyone to do their job right
at the first time, but mistakes happen, no matter how
diligent you are. Especially if the system is as complex
as modern nuclear physics expermients. And i do not like
it, if people who are not involved in a complex project
do finger pointing.

Attila Kinali


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[time-nuts] FEI Picosync GPSDO

[cfo]

Just saw these on the auctionsite: 180857665874

Quite expensive compared to the below
http://webuzz.org/product-13315209770.html

/Cfo


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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Azelio Boriani]

OK, taken a look: it seems that the smallest Spartan3 usable is the
400Kgates. I don't need the ZPU now but good to know.

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 3:35 PM, cfo  wrote:

> On Sat, 07 Apr 2012 13:19:14 +0200, Azelio Boriani wrote:
>
> > The Xilinx and Altera have their embedded CPUs (Microblaze and Nios) IP.
> > I'm not familiar with them and don't know how much they cost. Until now
> > I have developed on Xilinx 50Kgates FPGA and 128 cells CPLD with the
> > Xilinx's free tools.
> >
> Maybe ZPU
> http://opensource.zylin.com/zpuref.html
> http://opencores.org/project,zpu
>
> http://embdev.net/articles/
> ZPU:_Softcore_implementation_on_a_Spartan-3_FPGA
>
> /Cfo
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Jim Lux]

On 4/7/12 4:47 AM, Javier Herrero wrote:

El 07/04/2012 13:19, Azelio Boriani escribió:

The Xilinx and Altera have their embedded CPUs (Microblaze and Nios) IP.
I'm not familiar with them and don't know how much they cost. Until now I
have developed on Xilinx 50Kgates FPGA and 128 cells CPLD with the
Xilinx's
free tools.


Mostly expensive for amateur use, although reduced free versions exists
(for Nios-II it is Nios-II/e without MMU and no cache, I suppose that
something similar for Microblaze). But both are closed-source.

There are open-source soft processors like LatticeMico32 and LEON3. I'm
moving to one of these for a next project (not yet decided which one,
since in this case it will be a bare-metal application, with no
operating system, but I would like to use a processor that is supported
by Linux distribution for the future). Linux is ported to both, and for
LM32 (not sure if for LEON3), RTEMS also (see www.milkymist.org , an
open source hardware and software project with an LM32 implementation on
a Spartan 6 FPGA using RTEMS. Also there is a plethora of soft
implementation of several processors in OpenCores (ranging from 6502 to
OpenRISC) and also somewhere I read about an implementation of a Cray-1
in a Spartan-3 :)



I'm very familiar with the LEON and RTEMS, having managed a software 
development project with it for the last 3 or 4 years at work.


http://www.gaisler.com/ for LEON
http://www.rtems.org/ for RTEMS

And yes, there is a port (maybe two) of Linux for the LEON as well (A 
few years ago, we loaded up the Snapgear port, but since we went RTEMS, 
I haven't fooled with it).  You'd have to check the Gaisler.com website.


You can drop a LEON core into a Virtex II in about a day, and judging 
from the traffic on the LEON yahoo list (where the Gaisler folks hang 
out), lots of people are doing things like multiple cores and things on 
all manner of Xilinx eval boards.


Gaisler's GPL library of assorted cores (pretty much all using AMBA) 
make life pretty easy from a hardware interface standpoint.  Their basi 
strategy is that source and documentation is free, but that if you want 
the fault tolerant versions, or the versions intended for spaceflight, 
or the testbenches for the cores, you have to go with a license ( a few 
thousand bucks per core, depending on what it is).


Gaisler's basic business model (hopefully I'm summarizing correctly..) 
is that they do custom FPGA/ASIC designs for people, putting together 
pieces of their library, possibly adding new modules, targeted to 
platforms like the Actel AX2000 (or Xilinx, or FPGA->ASIC).  SO you have 
products like the Atmel AT697  (A LEON-FT with memory controllers and 
peripherals) which we use in JPL's space radios) or the Aeroflex UT699 
(another LEON core with various peripherals).


RTEMS wise... It's pretty well supported by the community, it's open 
source, it does all the stuff you want a RTOS to do.  it's NOT a 
multitasking, dynamic loading OS like Linux.  That is it doesn't support 
an MMU and process space isolation (although that might be possible in 
newer versions.. there's a lot of configurability).  It's basically a 
statically linked single task with threads.  They've got RAM (and disk) 
file systems, IP stacks, a shell, YAFFS, etc.


Like all open source, there's quite a lot of interesting stuff available 
(not from rtems.org, but others) that is 90% complete.  Somebody at 
Google Summer of Code or for their Masters decides to implement 
something cool, and gets most of the way done, then wanders away (the 
summer ended, they got their degree, the usual story).


But there's also a core of users who are serious and rigorous and 
contribute back, so the main stuff in the distribution from Joel 
Sherrill at OAR (who make RTEMS) is pretty rock solid.


ESA has several rigorously verified flight qualified versions of RTEMS 
(in Portugal and Austria, as I recall)


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Re: [time-nuts] 60Hz More or Less

[Jim Lux]

On 4/7/12 3:17 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:

On Mon, 02 Apr 2012 07:18:18 -0700
Jim Lux  wrote:


John Strong's book on making stuff ("procedures in experimental
physics") probably has a lot of the details (like how they put the
reflective coating on the mirror).  That book is a fascinating look at
state of the art in the early part of the 20th century (you want to make
your own Geiger-Muller tubes... it's in there).  Every physics/lab
tinkerer should have a copy (it's cheap in paperback from Lindsay books
(http://www.lindsaybks.com/... don't know if they still have it), or
probably Amazon, too)(just checked amazon.. $35 for used??? what are
they thinking)


Oh.. 35USD isnt that bad...


Yeah, but this is a book that's out of copyright that Lindsay was 
selling for something like $6 paperback..


Lindsay Publications is an interesting company.. they do a lot of "get 
old out of print book and reprint" Very much oriented towards 
do-it-yourself things, industrial revolution and later.  You want to 
make a locomotive, starting with iron ore, in your backyard?   Lindsay 
has all the books on how to do it, from building a cupola furnace to 
make the iron and reduce it to steel, to building your own machine tools 
(sand casting is your friend), to laying out the plates for the boiler 
and so forth.


I don't think there's a book on building your own rolling mill, but 
that's about it.


So the Strong book fits right in.  If you were working at Univ of 
Chicago with Fermi, this is the book you'd have handy.  The mechanical 
fabrication info is great because, face it, not much has changed with 
metalworking hand and low end shop tools in more than 100 years. We 
might have nice numerical readouts on the mill (and maybe CNC) but as a 
rookie, you still need advice on what kind of cutter to use, how many 
flutes, what speed, etc.


 The book "The Quantum Physics of Atomic

Frequency Standards" by Vanier and Audoin has been out of print for
a while now. You're lucky to find any used book at all (and the price
is usally in the hundreds of USD). But, you can buy the PDFs of the
scanned book from the publisher... for just 750USD (i'm not joking!)
And those PDFs are simple scans, no OCR and no correction of typos
or anything.

Fortunately, if you have access to an large university library, they might
have an account with CRC Press and you can download the PDFs for free.

Attila Kinali




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Re: [time-nuts] Opera coordinator has resigned

[Jim Lux]

On 4/7/12 2:47 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:

Moin,

On Sun, 01 Apr 2012 16:54:09 -0700
Jim Lux  wrote:


Not a whole lot, but the whole paper goes into the various factors
involved.  Ultimately, it winds up that the mismatch from SMAs is
a) a whole lot less than the usual "worst case" spec of 1.05:1 or 1.03:1
(which is basically a measurement limit)
and
b) doesn't change much with many mate/demate cycles

He did look at things like coupling nut friction and what not.


Do you have the name of the paper? It might be interesting to read.

Attila Kinali



I'll try to find it.  I've got the pdf "somewhere" on my computer..

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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[cfo]

On Sat, 07 Apr 2012 13:19:14 +0200, Azelio Boriani wrote:

> The Xilinx and Altera have their embedded CPUs (Microblaze and Nios) IP.
> I'm not familiar with them and don't know how much they cost. Until now
> I have developed on Xilinx 50Kgates FPGA and 128 cells CPLD with the
> Xilinx's free tools.
> 
Maybe ZPU
http://opensource.zylin.com/zpuref.html
http://opencores.org/project,zpu

http://embdev.net/articles/
ZPU:_Softcore_implementation_on_a_Spartan-3_FPGA

/Cfo


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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Azelio Boriani]

The Cray-1 implementation is here http://chrisfenton.com/homebrew-cray-1a/

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Javier Herrero wrote:

> El 07/04/2012 13:19, Azelio Boriani escribió:
>
>> The Xilinx and Altera have their embedded CPUs (Microblaze and Nios) IP.
>> I'm not familiar with them and don't know how much they cost. Until now I
>> have developed on Xilinx 50Kgates FPGA and 128 cells CPLD with the
>> Xilinx's
>> free tools.
>>
>>  Mostly expensive for amateur use, although reduced free versions exists
> (for Nios-II it is Nios-II/e without MMU and no cache, I suppose that
> something similar for Microblaze). But both are closed-source.
>
> There are open-source soft processors like LatticeMico32 and LEON3. I'm
> moving to one of these for a next project (not yet decided which one, since
> in this case it will be a bare-metal application, with no operating system,
> but I would like to use a processor that is supported by Linux distribution
> for the future). Linux is ported to both, and for LM32 (not sure if for
> LEON3), RTEMS also (see www.milkymist.org , an open source hardware and
> software project with an LM32 implementation on a Spartan 6 FPGA using
> RTEMS. Also there is a plethora of soft implementation of several
> processors in OpenCores (ranging from 6502 to OpenRISC) and also somewhere
> I read about an implementation of a Cray-1 in a Spartan-3 :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Javier
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Austron 2201, Tbolt, HP 3801 comparison question

[Tom Van Baak]

Hi Ulrich,

I want to re-iterate how difficult it is to compare one make of GPSDO
with another. A lot depends on antenna, and software configuration,
environmental controls, and the particular OCXO that you happen to
get with the unit. You can see significant difference in N TBolts; you
can see significant differences in N HP Smartclock's.

I don't believe there's anything magic about the hp Smartclock. The
main goal back then was to reduce the effects of S/A. Maybe that
was clever 15 years ago, but S/A hasn't been around for a decade.

In order to investigate the Smartclock algorithms in detail it would
be possible to replace their algorithm with your own. That is, take
a 58503 or Z3801 and keep the Oncore, keep the OCXO, keep
the DAC, keep the p.s., but insert your own TIC and your own
PC-based disciplining algorithm. FYI: here's info on their DAC:
http://leapsecond.com/pages/z3801a-efc/

If without too much effort you match HP's performance, then there
is no magic in Smartclock. In other words, the performance they
get is mostly the Oncore and the 10811 and a decent TIC & DAC
and nothing extraordinary about the software.

On the other hand, if after weeks of work HP still beats your best
effort, then I would agree there's something clever and hidden in
their implementation.

Realize that the HP Smartclock was one of the very first GPSDO.
Since then there have been tens (hundreds?) of different GPSDO
products, both commercial and amateur. It's really hard for me to
believe that any stone has been left unturned.

Still, I welcome anyone who wants to test the Smartclock algorithm
as suggested above. If you have the time but not the Smartclock,
let me know and I'll make a loaner available.

Thanks,
/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Ulrich Bangert" 

To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 

Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 3:13 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 2201, Tbolt, HP 3801 comparison question



Gents,

one of the things that MAY be responsible for the differences in performance
is that the Z3801 uses HP's Smartclock technology while the TBolt does not.
The TBolt works with a fixed set of parameters (unless we change them)
which's default values are far from optimal but ensure a fast lock of the
pll. The Smartclock in difference seems to be able to adapt regulation
parameters to its "measurements" of ocxo stability and long term drift. 


Unfortunately there are only a very limited number of publications available
about Smartclock technology with most of them only scratching the surface.
That is why I believe that HP & Agilent still make a big secret out of it
even today. I guess we time nuts could learn a lot if we had an in depth
description available on how Smartclock works.

Best regards
Ulrich Bangert 


-Ursprungliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com 
[mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im Auftrag von paul swed

Gesendet: Samstag, 7. April 2012 02:09
An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 2201, Tbolt, HP 3801 
comparison question



A lot of great comments.
Hope I do not drop any responses.
I am sure its older also it was $135 and picked it up 
recently. Have to say for the $ its actually quite fine and I 
am happy.


I have had the 3801 at least 10 years now. Picked it up early 
on and did some of the original tinkering and reverse 
engineering. So perhaps is does have the better oven. I m 
looking at what the 38xx software program says its doing at 
the numbers match the 2201 very nicely. So beginning to 
believe that what the 2201 says may be pretty accurate..


Tom asked if someone was going to make down converters. I 
might believe that I was involved in those threads. But it 
would have been attempt to make. Not produce. I have produced 
2 main approaches with a number of other sub approaches. They 
do not emulate the RF down converter but are dependent on 
older less integrated receivers. The key is being able to get 
to the signals.


First version
Used the odetics antenna and then up converting the 35.42 to 
75.42 Mhz. Easy to say harder to implement then imagined. 
plus building a 10 Mhz to 40 Mhz multiplier. though this all 
worked for a year I don't think many could reproduce it.


Second most recent approach thats really working very well.
A novatel starview 2 receiever provided by another Time-nut. 
The G2015 chips quite a jewel. Its made by zarlink now for 
$7.50. Any how it produces a 40 Mhz clock and has nice 
filtering and such for the 35 Mhz. Mix them and you are in 
business. Though I had been using active mixers with mixed 
results. (Pun) I went brute force a week or so ago using a 
minicircuits SRA1 type mixer. Boy does that work nicely in 
fact every things rock solid. No muss no fuss. Thats the 
right kind of design. The hardest part of this effor is 
attaching the IF wire and 2 wires for the pecl 40 Mhz clock. 
Right about at my limits for soldering.


So I do believe t

Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Javier Herrero]

El 07/04/2012 13:19, Azelio Boriani escribió:

The Xilinx and Altera have their embedded CPUs (Microblaze and Nios) IP.
I'm not familiar with them and don't know how much they cost. Until now I
have developed on Xilinx 50Kgates FPGA and 128 cells CPLD with the Xilinx's
free tools.

Mostly expensive for amateur use, although reduced free versions exists 
(for Nios-II it is Nios-II/e without MMU and no cache, I suppose that 
something similar for Microblaze). But both are closed-source.


There are open-source soft processors like LatticeMico32 and LEON3. I'm 
moving to one of these for a next project (not yet decided which one, 
since in this case it will be a bare-metal application, with no 
operating system, but I would like to use a processor that is supported 
by Linux distribution for the future). Linux is ported to both, and for 
LM32 (not sure if for LEON3), RTEMS also (see www.milkymist.org , an 
open source hardware and software project with an LM32 implementation on 
a Spartan 6 FPGA using RTEMS. Also there is a plethora of soft 
implementation of several processors in OpenCores (ranging from 6502 to 
OpenRISC) and also somewhere I read about an implementation of a Cray-1 
in a Spartan-3 :)


Regards,

Javier





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Re: [time-nuts] Austron 2201, Tbolt, HP 3801 comparison question

[Azelio Boriani]

No need to discover how the HP SmartClock works: there is the Kalman
filtering to help in better driving a clock disciplining. Indeed the
SmartClock approach may be based on the Kalman method. The fundamental
starting point is to have a good clock mathematical model. The "smart" part
is the trimming of the coefficients to take the model in sync with the
aging of the clock (typically an OCXO).

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Ulrich Bangert wrote:

> Gents,
>
> one of the things that MAY be responsible for the differences in
> performance
> is that the Z3801 uses HP's Smartclock technology while the TBolt does not.
> The TBolt works with a fixed set of parameters (unless we change them)
> which's default values are far from optimal but ensure a fast lock of the
> pll. The Smartclock in difference seems to be able to adapt regulation
> parameters to its "measurements" of ocxo stability and long term drift.
>
> Unfortunately there are only a very limited number of publications
> available
> about Smartclock technology with most of them only scratching the surface.
> That is why I believe that HP & Agilent still make a big secret out of it
> even today. I guess we time nuts could learn a lot if we had an in depth
> description available on how Smartclock works.
>
> Best regards
> Ulrich Bangert
>
> > -Ursprungliche Nachricht-
> > Von: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> > [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im Auftrag von paul swed
> > Gesendet: Samstag, 7. April 2012 02:09
> > An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 2201, Tbolt, HP 3801
> > comparison question
> >
> >
> > A lot of great comments.
> > Hope I do not drop any responses.
> > I am sure its older also it was $135 and picked it up
> > recently. Have to say for the $ its actually quite fine and I
> > am happy.
> >
> > I have had the 3801 at least 10 years now. Picked it up early
> > on and did some of the original tinkering and reverse
> > engineering. So perhaps is does have the better oven. I m
> > looking at what the 38xx software program says its doing at
> > the numbers match the 2201 very nicely. So beginning to
> > believe that what the 2201 says may be pretty accurate..
> >
> > Tom asked if someone was going to make down converters. I
> > might believe that I was involved in those threads. But it
> > would have been attempt to make. Not produce. I have produced
> > 2 main approaches with a number of other sub approaches. They
> > do not emulate the RF down converter but are dependent on
> > older less integrated receivers. The key is being able to get
> > to the signals.
> >
> > First version
> > Used the odetics antenna and then up converting the 35.42 to
> > 75.42 Mhz. Easy to say harder to implement then imagined.
> > plus building a 10 Mhz to 40 Mhz multiplier. though this all
> > worked for a year I don't think many could reproduce it.
> >
> > Second most recent approach thats really working very well.
> > A novatel starview 2 receiever provided by another Time-nut.
> > The G2015 chips quite a jewel. Its made by zarlink now for
> > $7.50. Any how it produces a 40 Mhz clock and has nice
> > filtering and such for the 35 Mhz. Mix them and you are in
> > business. Though I had been using active mixers with mixed
> > results. (Pun) I went brute force a week or so ago using a
> > minicircuits SRA1 type mixer. Boy does that work nicely in
> > fact every things rock solid. No muss no fuss. Thats the
> > right kind of design. The hardest part of this effor is
> > attaching the IF wire and 2 wires for the pecl 40 Mhz clock.
> > Right about at my limits for soldering.
> >
> > So I do believe the 2201s are really quite a good receiver.
> > There are numbers of tricks to actually getting them going.
> > But after all the work I do believe worth it. I have made an
> > offer for a second antenna-less unit. Considering my first
> > was $5 I am offering more then that. But not going crazy
> > either such as the silly prices I see on e... for a faulted unit.
> >
> > Hope every things covered and thanks.
> > regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 5:43 PM, Ed Palmer
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Paul,
> > >
> > > I'm sure you've followed the discussions in the past on Tbolt
> > > performance tuning.  Have you jumped through all the appropriate
> > > hoops?  Things like precision survey, autotune the oscillator
> > > parameters, good antenna visibility, mask angle, etc. come
> > to mind.
> > > Having said that, I've found that my Z3801A performs
> > somewhat better
> > > than my Tbolt.  For example, the 1 PPS out of my Tbolt has
> > a Standard
> > > Deviation of ~ 550 ps and a max-min range of ~ 4 ns.  My Z3801A is
> > > ~200ps and ~2 ns. so call it twice as good.
> > >
> > > FYI, my best GPSDO is a Z3817A with a Standard Deviation of
> > < 100 ps
> > > and a max-min range of < 1 ns.  That one has an E1938 oscillator.
> > >
> > > Ed
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 4/6/2012 2:24 PM

Re: [time-nuts] Antenna for t-bolt

[bg]

> On Tue, 3 Apr 2012 22:05:22 +0200
> b...@lysator.liu.se wrote:
>
>>   http://www.aeroantenna.com/PDF/AT575-90_G.pdf
>
> It might be a stupid question, but what is the spike at the top for?
>
>   Attila Kinali

It is there to make birds feel unconfortable.

-- 
Björn


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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[Dave M]

From: Ed Palmer 

Is there a pdf of the HP 5370B Manual that allows you to search for text?

Thanks in advance,

Ed



I have a copy of the 5370B O/S manual that has been OCRed, and is 
searchable.  It is, however, over 150Mb in size, so not emailable.  If you 
give me a day or so, I can attempt to reduce that file size to something 
more easily handled.  It's a high quality scan; not like the scanned manuals 
that you'll find on the Agilent site.


When I get it ready, I'll upload it to a file share site where you can 
download it.


Dave M
A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after
that is the beginning of a new argument. 




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Re: [time-nuts] Antenna for t-bolt

[Tom Van Baak]

It might be a stupid question, but what is the spike at the top for?


It's just plastic; not for lightning. For me it keeps birds from sitting
on the top of the radome and dropping liquid gps signal attenuators.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] FPGA GPSDO (Was: Re: NTP jitter with Linux)

[Azelio Boriani]

The Xilinx and Altera have their embedded CPUs (Microblaze and Nios) IP.
I'm not familiar with them and don't know how much they cost. Until now I
have developed on Xilinx 50Kgates FPGA and 128 cells CPLD with the Xilinx's
free tools.

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Chris Albertson
wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Andrew Rodland 
> wrote:
>
> > Another option would be building something on an FPGA. This would be a
> > considerable stretch for me, since I've never done FPGA work, but if I
> build
> > from the ground up, I can have *very* tight control over things that are
> chosen
> > for me with a micro controller.
>
>
> A compromise is to find a "soft core" for the FPGA.  This is a CPU
> implemented in FPGA and then it runs software just like a "real" CPU.
>  This would let you move your micro controller based be sign over to
> the FPGA quickly.   After that you can implement some specialized
> peripherals that do time stamping
>
>
> How does the performance of the Arduino based NTP compare with what
> you could do with Linux on (say) and Atom or ARM processor?
>
>
>
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 1 pps correction

[Attila Kinali]

On Sun, 1 Apr 2012 19:10:59 +
shali...@gmail.com wrote:

> It seems to me that if standalone GPS timing receivers used a VCXO
> instead of a fixed frequency clock, the cost delta would not be that
> significant, and they too could avoid the need for sawtooth correction.

Not really. You'd need a low noise, low DNL, high resolution DAC to
stear the VCXO. Analog electronic costs considerably more than a tiny bit
of software and eats a lot more power.

Maybe you can get away with using one of the Silicon Labs programmable
oscillators instead of a VCXO and a DAC. But IIRC they only have a
frequency setting, no phase setting, so you need some way to fix the
phase offset.

Attila Kinali


-- 
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the questions one should have asked long ago?

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Re: [time-nuts] Antenna for t-bolt

[Attila Kinali]

On Tue, 3 Apr 2012 22:05:22 +0200
b...@lysator.liu.se wrote:

>   http://www.aeroantenna.com/PDF/AT575-90_G.pdf

It might be a stupid question, but what is the spike at the top for?

Attila Kinali

-- 
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

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Re: [time-nuts] 60Hz More or Less

[Attila Kinali]

On Mon, 02 Apr 2012 07:18:18 -0700
Jim Lux  wrote:

> John Strong's book on making stuff ("procedures in experimental 
> physics") probably has a lot of the details (like how they put the 
> reflective coating on the mirror).  That book is a fascinating look at 
> state of the art in the early part of the 20th century (you want to make 
> your own Geiger-Muller tubes... it's in there).  Every physics/lab 
> tinkerer should have a copy (it's cheap in paperback from Lindsay books 
> (http://www.lindsaybks.com/... don't know if they still have it), or 
> probably Amazon, too)(just checked amazon.. $35 for used??? what are 
> they thinking)

Oh.. 35USD isnt that bad... The book "The Quantum Physics of Atomic
Frequency Standards" by Vanier and Audoin has been out of print for
a while now. You're lucky to find any used book at all (and the price
is usally in the hundreds of USD). But, you can buy the PDFs of the
scanned book from the publisher... for just 750USD (i'm not joking!)
And those PDFs are simple scans, no OCR and no correction of typos
or anything.

Fortunately, if you have access to an large university library, they might
have an account with CRC Press and you can download the PDFs for free.

Attila Kinali

-- 
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the questions one should have asked long ago?

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Re: [time-nuts] Austron 2201, Tbolt, HP 3801 comparison question

[Ulrich Bangert]

Gents,

one of the things that MAY be responsible for the differences in performance
is that the Z3801 uses HP's Smartclock technology while the TBolt does not.
The TBolt works with a fixed set of parameters (unless we change them)
which's default values are far from optimal but ensure a fast lock of the
pll. The Smartclock in difference seems to be able to adapt regulation
parameters to its "measurements" of ocxo stability and long term drift. 

Unfortunately there are only a very limited number of publications available
about Smartclock technology with most of them only scratching the surface.
That is why I believe that HP & Agilent still make a big secret out of it
even today. I guess we time nuts could learn a lot if we had an in depth
description available on how Smartclock works.

Best regards
Ulrich Bangert 

> -Ursprungliche Nachricht-
> Von: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im Auftrag von paul swed
> Gesendet: Samstag, 7. April 2012 02:09
> An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 2201, Tbolt, HP 3801 
> comparison question
> 
> 
> A lot of great comments.
> Hope I do not drop any responses.
> I am sure its older also it was $135 and picked it up 
> recently. Have to say for the $ its actually quite fine and I 
> am happy.
> 
> I have had the 3801 at least 10 years now. Picked it up early 
> on and did some of the original tinkering and reverse 
> engineering. So perhaps is does have the better oven. I m 
> looking at what the 38xx software program says its doing at 
> the numbers match the 2201 very nicely. So beginning to 
> believe that what the 2201 says may be pretty accurate..
> 
> Tom asked if someone was going to make down converters. I 
> might believe that I was involved in those threads. But it 
> would have been attempt to make. Not produce. I have produced 
> 2 main approaches with a number of other sub approaches. They 
> do not emulate the RF down converter but are dependent on 
> older less integrated receivers. The key is being able to get 
> to the signals.
> 
> First version
> Used the odetics antenna and then up converting the 35.42 to 
> 75.42 Mhz. Easy to say harder to implement then imagined. 
> plus building a 10 Mhz to 40 Mhz multiplier. though this all 
> worked for a year I don't think many could reproduce it.
> 
> Second most recent approach thats really working very well.
> A novatel starview 2 receiever provided by another Time-nut. 
> The G2015 chips quite a jewel. Its made by zarlink now for 
> $7.50. Any how it produces a 40 Mhz clock and has nice 
> filtering and such for the 35 Mhz. Mix them and you are in 
> business. Though I had been using active mixers with mixed 
> results. (Pun) I went brute force a week or so ago using a 
> minicircuits SRA1 type mixer. Boy does that work nicely in 
> fact every things rock solid. No muss no fuss. Thats the 
> right kind of design. The hardest part of this effor is 
> attaching the IF wire and 2 wires for the pecl 40 Mhz clock. 
> Right about at my limits for soldering.
> 
> So I do believe the 2201s are really quite a good receiver. 
> There are numbers of tricks to actually getting them going. 
> But after all the work I do believe worth it. I have made an 
> offer for a second antenna-less unit. Considering my first 
> was $5 I am offering more then that. But not going crazy 
> either such as the silly prices I see on e... for a faulted unit.
> 
> Hope every things covered and thanks.
> regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 5:43 PM, Ed Palmer 
>  wrote:
> 
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > I'm sure you've followed the discussions in the past on Tbolt 
> > performance tuning.  Have you jumped through all the appropriate 
> > hoops?  Things like precision survey, autotune the oscillator 
> > parameters, good antenna visibility, mask angle, etc. come 
> to mind.  
> > Having said that, I've found that my Z3801A performs 
> somewhat better 
> > than my Tbolt.  For example, the 1 PPS out of my Tbolt has 
> a Standard 
> > Deviation of ~ 550 ps and a max-min range of ~ 4 ns.  My Z3801A is 
> > ~200ps and ~2 ns. so call it twice as good.
> >
> > FYI, my best GPSDO is a Z3817A with a Standard Deviation of 
> < 100 ps 
> > and a max-min range of < 1 ns.  That one has an E1938 oscillator.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/6/2012 2:24 PM, paul swed wrote:
> >
> >> Recently I put a 2201 back into service with  a home brew down 
> >> converter. I am a bit surprised that when I use it to measure the 
> >> Tbolt and then the HP 3801. The 3801 comes out always better by a 
> >> decade actually. Granted what I am seeing is way down 
> below a e-12th 
> >> and in fact what I am reading seems nuts to me.
> >> But can a 3801 run that much better then the Tbolt?
> >> I kind of thought they would both be in the same region.
> >> Thanks
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >> WB8TSL
> >>
> >
> > __**_
> > time-nu

Re: [time-nuts] LEA-6T Group buy

[Attila Kinali]

On Mon, 2 Apr 2012 18:57:47 +0200
Sylvain Munaut <246...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Note that there should soon be a LEA6T eval board available from sysmocom
> 
> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2012/03/16/#20120316-osmo_lea6t_gps_timing
> 
> Estimated price is 90 EUR excl VAT in the EU.

Cool! But can you tell me how you get the LEA-6T so cheap?
You (will) sell the whole board for about the price i get the LEA for.
And no matter what i did, u-blox didnt want to go down with the price...


Attila Kinali

-- 
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

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Re: [time-nuts] Opera coordinator has resigned

[Attila Kinali]

Moin,

On Sun, 01 Apr 2012 16:54:09 -0700
Jim Lux  wrote:

> Not a whole lot, but the whole paper goes into the various factors 
> involved.  Ultimately, it winds up that the mismatch from SMAs is
> a) a whole lot less than the usual "worst case" spec of 1.05:1 or 1.03:1 
> (which is basically a measurement limit)
> and
> b) doesn't change much with many mate/demate cycles
> 
> He did look at things like coupling nut friction and what not.

Do you have the name of the paper? It might be interesting to read.

Attila Kinali

-- 
Why does it take years to find the answers to
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Re: [time-nuts] Opera coordinator has resigned

[Attila Kinali]

Moin,

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 09:19:35 -0400
Chuck Harris  wrote:

> I think that is why John said that you cannot inspect in
> quality.  Every worker has to do his job right the first
> time, without relying on others to catch his mistakes.
> 
> As to your questions about John Forster's competency at
> complicated tasks:  You clearly don't know John!

I didn't questions his competency on complicated tasks.
But i questioned his finger pointing at the CERN guys.
Yes, you have to teach everyone to do their job right
at the first time, but mistakes happen, no matter how
diligent you are. Especially if the system is as complex
as modern nuclear physics expermients. And i do not like
it, if people who are not involved in a complex project
do finger pointing.

Attila Kinali

-- 
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[John Miles]

The large (129 MB) copy in the Manuals section of www.ko4bb.com is
text-searchable.  

-- john

> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-
> boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 12:41 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?
> 
> In message <4f7fe2d1.4070...@verizon.net>, Rix Seacord writes:
> 
> >Is that a function of the pdf file or the reader?
> 
> It can be both.
> 
> PDFs can have searchable indexes.
> 
> Readers can have OCR facilities, most don't.
> 
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> incompetence.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <4f7fe2d1.4070...@verizon.net>, Rix Seacord writes:

>Is that a function of the pdf file or the reader?

It can be both.

PDFs can have searchable indexes.

Readers can have OCR facilities, most don't.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[Ed Palmer]

Hi Ewing,

It's a function of the file.  Most of the old tech manuals we see are 
just pictures of text that have been scanned and put into a pdf file.  
There's no text so there's nothing to search.  It looks like Phantom has 
OCR capabilities so it should be able to take a non-searchable pdf and 
change it to a searchable pdf.  How well it does it and how much 
post-OCR editing is required is another matter.


Ed

On 4/7/2012 12:46 AM, Rix Seacord wrote:

Ed
Is that a function of the pdf file or the reader?
I've been  using Foxit Phantom that will even search multiple pdf 
files in the same folder.

Good luck in your quest.

Ewing (Rix) Seacord
K2AVP/4/499
eseac...@verizon.net

845-628-0892 Home
914-262-9186 Cell
914-233-3886 Skype Notebook


On 4/7/2012 12:00 AM, Ed Palmer wrote:
Is there a pdf of the HP 5370B Manual that allows you to search for 
text?


Thanks in advance,

Ed


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