date:20120928

Hi

Flag poles are prohibited.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Randy D. Hunt
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:24 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] BPSK Receiver  GPS Antenna siting

On 9/27/2012 4:20 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi

 At least in my back yard, a 6' tall tripod would be very noticeable from a
number of directions. There are many others in similar situations. If I were
to interpret the restrictions literally as written, an antenna that was
inside the house, but visible through an open window is also a violation.

 Bob


 On Sep 27, 2012, at 7:11 PM, johncr...@aol.com wrote:

 Various comments -

 Hal mentioned SNR for the scheme I suggested. A PLL can be a coherent
demodulator of arbitrary
 bandwidth. Thus the PLL at the output of the doubler can have a small
bandwidth since at that point
 there is no PSK, it having been removed by the doubler. So given a stable
VCXO you can probably get down
 to 1 Hz and thereby achieve a good SNR. There is a lot of stuff out there
on phase tracking receivers
 that do exactly that. You know the frequency so the loop does not have to
search far and the BW can be increased
 for acquisition and closed up for tracking.

 On writing reams of code - my point was that it is not required to used
the admittedly more powerful software
 techniques to do this job - I noted that one reason to write reams of
code is for the fun of it, this is after all
 a hobby.

 GPS Antenna Siting -

 Lets not make this so hard. Mine is at 6 ft elevation and is blocked to
an elevation angle of 20 to 30 degrees by a house
 within 15 ft and a forest of trees. I have room and no restrictions but I
also have severe thunderstorms - so the house
 plays lightning protect for the antenna. My T bolt tracks a Rb to better
than 1e-12 over 24  hours with no serious 10 MHz phase bumps
 as plotted on a  strip chart recorder.

 So  -

 Put your antenna at 6 ft in back yard. Start out on a photo tripod - who
is gonna notice?
 set up a t bolt at EL=5 AMU=0 Damping = 1.2 and Time Constant = 100 sec.
 get the t bolt manual
 get Tbolt monitor
 get Lady Heather and read all that stuff.

 Run Lady Heather antenna survey (command SAS)  for at least two days -
you get a map of signal level in dBc vs elevation
 Reset the Tbolt elevation mask to reject anything that is shown as
blocked using the signal
 level map. Likewise experiment with the AMU setting to reject the weak =
poor signals. Mine works good
 with AMU all the way up to 10 as fewer good satellites are better than
lots of weak ones.

 The satellites are in high orbits so masking those below 25 degrees is OK
and the AMU sets the acceptable signal
 level - at AMU 10 my setup throws out those below about 40 dBc - the
strong guys go up to 50. This is a function
 of you antenna performance so some experimentation is required.

 -73 john k6iql




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Put up a flagpole.

Randy, KI6WAS

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Now a Monopoly

Hi

It turns out that what *should* be locked isn't always indeed locked.
Symmetricom made a bunch of boxes based on CDMA locking. They found out
about the nasty details after the fact. Made for a great bunch of stuff on
eBay though...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of b...@lysator.liu.se
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 1:38 AM
To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Now a Monopoly

Dont you have GPS/Cs locked cell networks anymore in the US?

http://www.endruntechnologies.com/cdma.htm

--

Björn

 In the real world, if GPS does not work, the WWVB change means you either
 have to buy the XW stuff or go do something else.

 YMMV

 -John

 =



 On 9/26/12 7:11 PM, J. Forster wrote:
 But if someone here designed and built a $100 receiver and offered it
 to
 the group, that could well violate some of their IP.

 As to building a home brew receiver and certifying a onsie so your
 lab's
 cal is traceable, I'd certainly not trust a cal done that way.

 Doing spacecraft communications is hardly the same thing.




 Well..if you're trying to do NIST traceable cals in a legally acceptable
 way, then it's very unlikely that any homebuilt receiver that infringed
 the patent would be acceptable, from a patent standpoint. The general
 exemption to practice the invention is for development of a new
 invention, not to make use of it for other reasons (otherwise, the
 patent wouldn't be particularly useful in terms of exclusivity).

 OTOH, if you cobble up a (non-infringing) receiver and validate its
 performance analytically, why wouldn't that be acceptable for a
 traceable calibration.  It's no different than using a homebuilt quartz
 oscillator as a transfer standard, is it?

 Now, if you're selling calibration services, it would be a tougher sell
 to your customers: they'd have to believe in your analysis or oscillator
 building. This is in the sense that if I use a HP 105, the long history
 and tradition of HP is essentially standing behind the design and the
 published performance standards; a homebuilt standard has a higher bar
 for the great unwashed public.

 If you want traceability for, say, a journal article, then I think the
 bar is set differently.  For state of the art stuff, the article usually
 describes the calibration approach, and it's up to the reader to decide
 if you did it adequately.




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Re: [time-nuts] BPSK Receiver GPS Antenna siting

2012-09-28 Thread Bill Dailey

I don't think it is legal to prohibit flag poles

Sent from my iPhone and Hunter Lambert is my hero!

On Sep 28, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:

 Hi
 
 Flag poles are prohibited.
 
 Bob
 
 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of Randy D. Hunt
 Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:24 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] BPSK Receiver  GPS Antenna siting
 
 On 9/27/2012 4:20 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi
 
 At least in my back yard, a 6' tall tripod would be very noticeable from a
 number of directions. There are many others in similar situations. If I were
 to interpret the restrictions literally as written, an antenna that was
 inside the house, but visible through an open window is also a violation.
 
 Bob
 
 
 On Sep 27, 2012, at 7:11 PM, johncr...@aol.com wrote:
 
 Various comments -
 
 Hal mentioned SNR for the scheme I suggested. A PLL can be a coherent
 demodulator of arbitrary
 bandwidth. Thus the PLL at the output of the doubler can have a small
 bandwidth since at that point
 there is no PSK, it having been removed by the doubler. So given a stable
 VCXO you can probably get down
 to 1 Hz and thereby achieve a good SNR. There is a lot of stuff out there
 on phase tracking receivers
 that do exactly that. You know the frequency so the loop does not have to
 search far and the BW can be increased
 for acquisition and closed up for tracking.
 
 On writing reams of code - my point was that it is not required to used
 the admittedly more powerful software
 techniques to do this job - I noted that one reason to write reams of
 code is for the fun of it, this is after all
 a hobby.
 
 GPS Antenna Siting -
 
 Lets not make this so hard. Mine is at 6 ft elevation and is blocked to
 an elevation angle of 20 to 30 degrees by a house
 within 15 ft and a forest of trees. I have room and no restrictions but I
 also have severe thunderstorms - so the house
 plays lightning protect for the antenna. My T bolt tracks a Rb to better
 than 1e-12 over 24  hours with no serious 10 MHz phase bumps
 as plotted on a  strip chart recorder.
 
 So  -
 
 Put your antenna at 6 ft in back yard. Start out on a photo tripod - who
 is gonna notice?
 set up a t bolt at EL=5 AMU=0 Damping = 1.2 and Time Constant = 100 sec.
 get the t bolt manual
 get Tbolt monitor
 get Lady Heather and read all that stuff.
 
 Run Lady Heather antenna survey (command SAS)  for at least two days -
 you get a map of signal level in dBc vs elevation
 Reset the Tbolt elevation mask to reject anything that is shown as
 blocked using the signal
 level map. Likewise experiment with the AMU setting to reject the weak =
 poor signals. Mine works good
 with AMU all the way up to 10 as fewer good satellites are better than
 lots of weak ones.
 
 The satellites are in high orbits so masking those below 25 degrees is OK
 and the AMU sets the acceptable signal
 level - at AMU 10 my setup throws out those below about 40 dBc - the
 strong guys go up to 50. This is a function
 of you antenna performance so some experimentation is required.
 
 -73 john k6iql
 
 
 
 
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 and follow the instructions there.
 
 Put up a flagpole.
 
 Randy, KI6WAS
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?

2012-09-28 Thread J. Forster

You missread what I meant.

I meant that this Al Gore nonsense may soon be coming to a voting booth
near you. And the forces of irrationality can easily mobilize like-minded
dingbats to vote against technology.

Often the Luddites win, on politics, not science or engineering. The
general public is ill equiped to understand, never mind making informed
judgements on, technological issues.

Case in point, the WWVB issue. Many may clamor for 'more accurate clocks',
but show up 10-20 minutes late for meetings. For most all civilian uses, a
clock synchronized to the 60 Hz line is perfectly adequate. Yet the push
is obviously on to destroy the usefulness of WWVB as a Standard of Time
Interval. I see no indication that the XW stuff provides ANYTHING but TOD.

YMMV,

-John

==



 Unfortunately it's not that easy. Where I lived for a long time I kept
 trying to
 nail down various candidates on their positions on such things like ham
 radio
 antennas and it was maddeningly frustrating. I was actually asked to run
 for
 office at one point, maybe I should of. If nothing else the town would
 have been
 great for hams.

 Peter



 On 9/27/2012 10:42 PM, J. Forster wrote:
 Comming soon to a voting booth near you.

 YMMV,

 -John

 ==



 And don't get me started on Smart Growth, the International Council
 for
 Local Environmental Initiatives and Agenda 21.

 All designed to move us into dense urban living conditions with fixed
 mass
 transit and odious rules as to what kind of light bulb we can use, what
 kind
 of toilet we can install, construction practices and materials, etc...

 A lot of people are decrying this as tinfoil hat bleating but if you
 actually read the proposals and observe places where they have been
 enacted
 (Portland, OR), the result is not what one would expect, quite the
 opposite
 because nobody wants to live in conditions like that.

 http://www.synthstuff.com/mt/archives/individual/2012/05/all_hail_our_master
 mind_overlords_the_iclei.html

 When I moved to where I am now, the specific request to my realtor was
 that
 there be zero CCRs.  I am in unincorporated Whatcom County -- the City
 of
 Bellingham is a member of ICLEI and talking to local builders, getting
 a
 permit for anything besides the County's smart growth initiatives is
 like
 pulling teeth.

 Like John said, these get slipstreamed in with popular measures and not
 talked about in the press.

 Dave

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster
 Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 18:17
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?

 Absolutely!

 Often as not, a bunch of new rules and regulations are
 bundled with some
 popular measure. The popular measure gets the press, the rest of the
 package gets ignored.

 That happens at all levels of government. Purposely so.

 -John

 ===


 HI

 . and if you believe that these sort of restrictions are
 passed one at a
 time locally.. not so much. The easy way is for your
 local government to
 simply adopt an up to date package of rules. Rarely do
 any of those
 voting understand what in the package. Rarely does the vote
 get anything
 more than passing notice in the local community.

 Bob

 On Sep 27, 2012, at 8:39 PM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:

 If you are under the impression living in an older, built
 up area will
 be
 a defense against those with a Martha Stewart fetish, you
 are wrong.
 -John

 




 Well, that's what I love about the SF bay area- lots of old
 neighborhoods
 that didn't have all these silly restrictions in place
 when they were
 built.Â  There are the usual CCRs, like I can raise
 chickens, but
 not
 cows, but it doesn't mandate what three colors you can paint your
 house,
 or the window coverings you can have or how long you can
 park your car
 in
 the driveway.Â  Yes, things can change, but at least it's
 not in place
 in
 the beginning- and we can monitor implementation ofÂ any
 changes, at
 least
 in Palo Alto and Sunnyvale (where we have neighborhood groups that
 monitor
 such things, specifically because we like the status quo).



 I'm sure some or all of the newer developments do have silly
 restrictions,
 I just would never buy into one.



 -Dave



 - Original Message -


 From: J. Forster j...@quikus.com
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:47:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?

 Earth to Dave:

 Sometimes laws and regulations change years after you buy
 a piece of
 property or do something perfectly legal.

 Nobody is safe whenever (Congress, Agency, State Legislature, Town
 Council, governing body, or whatever) is in session.

 YMMV,

 -John

 ===




 These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a
 development or with a HOA.



 -Dave

Re: [time-nuts] BPSK Receiver GPS Antenna siting

2012-09-28 Thread J. Forster

Welcome to:

Regulation Nation

-John

==



 Hi

 Flag poles are prohibited.

 Bob

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of Randy D. Hunt
 Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:24 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] BPSK Receiver  GPS Antenna siting

 On 9/27/2012 4:20 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi

 At least in my back yard, a 6' tall tripod would be very noticeable from
 a
 number of directions. There are many others in similar situations. If I
 were
 to interpret the restrictions literally as written, an antenna that was
 inside the house, but visible through an open window is also a violation.

 Bob


 On Sep 27, 2012, at 7:11 PM, johncr...@aol.com wrote:

 Various comments -

 Hal mentioned SNR for the scheme I suggested. A PLL can be a coherent
 demodulator of arbitrary
 bandwidth. Thus the PLL at the output of the doubler can have a small
 bandwidth since at that point
 there is no PSK, it having been removed by the doubler. So given a
 stable
 VCXO you can probably get down
 to 1 Hz and thereby achieve a good SNR. There is a lot of stuff out
 there
 on phase tracking receivers
 that do exactly that. You know the frequency so the loop does not have
 to
 search far and the BW can be increased
 for acquisition and closed up for tracking.

 On writing reams of code - my point was that it is not required to used
 the admittedly more powerful software
 techniques to do this job - I noted that one reason to write reams of
 code is for the fun of it, this is after all
 a hobby.

 GPS Antenna Siting -

 Lets not make this so hard. Mine is at 6 ft elevation and is blocked to
 an elevation angle of 20 to 30 degrees by a house
 within 15 ft and a forest of trees. I have room and no restrictions but
 I
 also have severe thunderstorms - so the house
 plays lightning protect for the antenna. My T bolt tracks a Rb to
 better
 than 1e-12 over 24  hours with no serious 10 MHz phase bumps
 as plotted on a  strip chart recorder.

 So  -

 Put your antenna at 6 ft in back yard. Start out on a photo tripod -
 who
 is gonna notice?
 set up a t bolt at EL=5 AMU=0 Damping = 1.2 and Time Constant = 100
 sec.
 get the t bolt manual
 get Tbolt monitor
 get Lady Heather and read all that stuff.

 Run Lady Heather antenna survey (command SAS)  for at least two days -
 you get a map of signal level in dBc vs elevation
 Reset the Tbolt elevation mask to reject anything that is shown as
 blocked using the signal
 level map. Likewise experiment with the AMU setting to reject the weak
 =
 poor signals. Mine works good
 with AMU all the way up to 10 as fewer good satellites are better than
 lots of weak ones.

 The satellites are in high orbits so masking those below 25 degrees is
 OK
 and the AMU sets the acceptable signal
 level - at AMU 10 my setup throws out those below about 40 dBc - the
 strong guys go up to 50. This is a function
 of you antenna performance so some experimentation is required.

 -73 john k6iql




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 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
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 and follow the instructions there.

 Put up a flagpole.

 Randy, KI6WAS

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[time-nuts] A gentle request...

2012-09-28 Thread John Ackermann N8UR

I know the WWVB news is something that's important and on-topic for this 
group.  However, with the discussions about zoning/regulations and the 
creeping trend toward general political comment, I think it's time to 
refocus.


Remember that there are 1200+ recipients of every time-nuts message, and 
many of them are outside the US and have limited interest in this topic.


Discussion about the technical issues of dealing with the change is 
perfectly fine, but let's try to keep it focused on that.


Thanks,

John

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Re: [time-nuts] A gentle request...

2012-09-28 Thread Had

Thank You, John


Had
K7MLR

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 07:44
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] A gentle request...

I know the WWVB news is something that's important and on-topic for this
group.  However, with the discussions about zoning/regulations and the
creeping trend toward general political comment, I think it's time to
refocus.

Remember that there are 1200+ recipients of every time-nuts message, and
many of them are outside the US and have limited interest in this topic.

Discussion about the technical issues of dealing with the change is
perfectly fine, but let's try to keep it focused on that.

Thanks,

John

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[time-nuts] Up And Running

Hello to all the Time-Nuts: 

 I Have been acquiring parts for a few weeks and finally have a
Thunderbolt-Trimble system up and running.

Though I would share a few pictures of what I did and how it looks now that
it is all together and working.

 

First, here is an overall look at what I have put together.

 

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/TrimbleParts.jpg

 

I had to use the attenuator to reduce the amplitude of the 10MHz signal from
the Trimble.  It was overdriving the Extron causing distortion in the output
waveform.  The 6db attenuator is just what was needed.

 

I was running on a temporary old GPS antenna mounted on the edge of my
garage roof for a while.  I ordered a Trimble antenna from China, took about
10 days to get here.  What a difference that made in the overall signal
strength and stability of the unit.

Here is a Lady Heather shot after running on the antenna over night.

 

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/MyLadyH.jpg

 

I am still having trouble knowing what all the indicators on the screen
mean, but it appears that everything is working.

Sure wish there was an index somewhere that told what each and every thing
on that screen means!

 

As I mentioned, the antenna arrived yesterday and I built a mount and
installed it yesterday afternoon.

Though you might like to see what I ended up doing.  We have a lot of rain,
snow, and ice here in Michigan, so I wanted to do something to protect the
antenna and connectors the best that I could from the elements.  First, here
is a picture of the antenna from China, along with the adaptor cable to get
it to an F connector to hook to my 50 foot RG6U cable with F connectors
on each end.

 

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/TrimbleAnt.jpg

 

Here is the mount that I built.  I am going to put it on my TV antenna mast
that is mounted on the house.  The 10 degree elevation pattern should see
open sky in all directions.

The mount is a piece of aluminum angle with a mast clamp on one end, the a
sealable tea container on the other.  The container is one of those push
button kitchen containers that has a very tight air seal when the button on
the lid is pressed in.  It really holds well, and you cannot remove the lid
when it is locked into place.  Also this configuration makes it really easy
to get to the antenna and connectors if necessary.  Just release the button
on the bottom and lift off the unit.  The F barrel connector through the
side of the container makes it easy to just unscrew the cable if necessary.
The seal on the container is about ¾ of an inch wide, and really holds on to
the inside of the container.

 

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/BuildingTheMount.jpg

 

To hold the GPS antenna in place at the top of the container, I cut a small
aluminum plate, carefully drilled 3 holes for 2-56 hardware through the top
of the container, using the aluminum plate as a template.  The antenna is
clamped into place by bolting the plate up against the bottom of the
antenna, inside of the container.  You can see from the next picture how the
cable connectors and antenna wire is coiled up in the bottom of the
container, and terminates on the F barrel connector inside.  Looks like it
is all ready to put up on the roof and connect to the cable.

 

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/ReadyToPutUp.jpg

 

Here it is, mounted about 25 feet above the ground, below the TV antenna.

 

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/MountedHigh.jpg

 

And here is a close up of the finished installation.

 

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/UpAndWorking.jpg

 

A lesson to be learned, about F connector barrels!

 

When I hooked up the basement end of the cable, total disappointment!  On
the screen it said in yellow letters, Antenna Open.

As I had tested the system end to end, BEFORE I put it all in the container,
the only place that could be a problem was that F connector barrel.

I brought the container back down to the bench and carefully looked at the
connections.  It was so simple, and I had caused the problem during early
bench testing of the cables.  The jumper cable from the antenna to the inner
part of the F connector has a extremely small diameter center conductor.
On the other hand, the RG6U cable has a greatly oversize, compared to RG59U
cable, center conductor.  In testing I had pushed the RG6U center conductor
into both ends of the F barrel.  This pushed the center part of the
connector to its limits, and it did not close back down when the cable was
removed.   I installed a nice brand new F barrel into the side of the
container.   Starting the F connector on the inside barrel connection, I
could feel the center conductor pushing into the connector.  Taking it all
back to the roof, tightening the F connectors in place, solved the
problem!

 

Somebody is probably going to ask, what I am using this system for?  I have
an HP synthesized signal generator and a Racal-Dana digital frequency
counter that both have provisions for a 10MHz

[time-nuts] ANN: UK - GPS Jamming Notice, 1-11 Oct 2012

2012-09-28 Thread David J Taylor


Folks, I have received the following:


Dates: Between 1 to 11 October 2012 inclusive.

Times:  Intermittent for 1hr slots between 0700 BST  and 2130 BST.

Location of MULTIPLE jammers:

A.The Little Minch and North Minch northwards from Waternish Point 
57-36N 006-38W to Stoer Head  58-14N 005-24W, including Sound of Raasay and 
Inner Sound.

B.Within 35 miles of Faraid Head 58-36N 004-46W.

Frequency: A 24 MHz band centred around 1176.45 MHz (GPS L5), 1227.60MHz 
(GPS L2) and 1575.42MHz (GPS L1).



Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 



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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

2012-09-28 Thread lists

Looks good, but I would have gone for a different GPS antenna. The timing 
antennas are weather proof. I have a Marine grade GPS antenna, also weather 
proof, but the timing antennas are probably a little better since they have 
less response to GPS birds on the horizon. 

-Original Message-
From: George Race geo...@mrrace.com
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:53:25 
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: geo...@mrrace.com,
Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Up And Running

Hello to all the Time-Nuts: 

 I Have been acquiring parts for a few weeks and finally have a
Thunderbolt-Trimble system up and running.

Though I would share a few pictures of what I did and how it looks now that
it is all together and working.

First, here is an overall look at what I have put together.

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/TrimbleParts.jpg

I had to use the attenuator to reduce the amplitude of the 10MHz signal from
the Trimble.  It was overdriving the Extron causing distortion in the output
waveform.  The 6db attenuator is just what was needed.

I was running on a temporary old GPS antenna mounted on the edge of my
garage roof for a while.  I ordered a Trimble antenna from China, took about
10 days to get here.  What a difference that made in the overall signal
strength and stability of the unit.

Here is a Lady Heather shot after running on the antenna over night.

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/MyLadyH.jpg

I am still having trouble knowing what all the indicators on the screen
mean, but it appears that everything is working.

Sure wish there was an index somewhere that told what each and every thing
on that screen means!

As I mentioned, the antenna arrived yesterday and I built a mount and
installed it yesterday afternoon.

Though you might like to see what I ended up doing.  We have a lot of rain,
snow, and ice here in Michigan, so I wanted to do something to protect the
antenna and connectors the best that I could from the elements.  First, here
is a picture of the antenna from China, along with the adaptor cable to get
it to an “F” connector to hook to my 50 foot RG6U cable with “F” connectors
on each end.

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/TrimbleAnt.jpg

Here is the mount that I built.  I am going to put it on my TV antenna mast
that is mounted on the house.  The 10 degree elevation pattern should see
open sky in all directions.

The mount is a piece of aluminum angle with a mast clamp on one end, the a
sealable tea container on the other.  The container is one of those push
button kitchen containers that has a very tight air seal when the button on
the lid is pressed in.  It really holds well, and you cannot remove the lid
when it is locked into place.  Also this configuration makes it really easy
to get to the antenna and connectors if necessary.  Just release the button
on the bottom and lift off the unit.  The “F” barrel connector through the
side of the container makes it easy to just unscrew the cable if necessary.
The seal on the container is about ¾ of an inch wide, and really holds on to
the inside of the container.

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/BuildingTheMount.jpg

To hold the GPS antenna in place at the top of the container, I cut a small
aluminum plate, carefully drilled 3 holes for 2-56 hardware through the top
of the container, using the aluminum plate as a template.  The antenna is
“clamped” into place by bolting the plate up against the bottom of the
antenna, inside of the container.  You can see from the next picture how the
cable connectors and antenna wire is coiled up in the bottom of the
container, and terminates on the “F” barrel connector inside.  Looks like it
is all ready to put up on the roof and connect to the cable.

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/ReadyToPutUp.jpg

Here it is, mounted about 25 feet above the ground, below the TV antenna.

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/MountedHigh.jpg

And here is a close up of the finished installation.

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/UpAndWorking.jpg

A lesson to be learned, about “F” connector barrels!

When I hooked up the basement end of the cable, total disappointment!  On
the screen it said in yellow letters, “Antenna Open.”

As I had tested the system end to end, BEFORE I put it all in the container,
the only place that could be a problem was that “F” connector barrel.

I brought the container back down to the bench and carefully looked at the
connections.  It was so simple, and I had caused the problem during early
bench testing of the cables.  The jumper cable from the antenna to the inner
part of the “F” connector has a extremely small diameter center conductor.
On the other hand, the RG6U cable has a greatly oversize, compared to RG59U
cable, center conductor.  In testing I had pushed the RG6U center conductor
into both ends of the “F” barrel.  This pushed the center

[time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...

2012-09-28 Thread Burt I. Weiner

I had a similar experience while working on the Seiko pager watch 
project some years ago.  We were using DATUM GPS 9390 GPS 
receivers to time the system at each FM station transmitter 
site.  One particular FM site on Edom Hill near Palm Springs, 
California (U.S.A.) had a problem from not only the associated FM 
transmitter but also from a nearby UHF TV running a bazillion or so 
Watts ERP.  We finally installed a Symerticom WWVB receiver, but that 
was not as reliable as we needed.  Not because of any interference, 
but because of propagation issues at 60 kHz at this mountain top site.


I called DATUM to see about filters that could be put ahead of the 
antenna.  The fellow I talked to lived within 50 miles of the 
site.  We intellectualized for a while and finally agreed that I 
would pick him up in the morning and take him to the site. Well, when 
I picked him up he had a shopping bag that he put in the back 
seat.  We had planned on getting something to eat before we went up 
the mountain so I asked, Bringing a snack?  He said, No, it's a 
surprise.  I also had one of the DATUM receiver running in my car 
off of 12 Volts with the antenna attached to my roof mount.


As we approached the site the receiver in my car lost all 
satellites.  He looked at the receiver in the Seiko system and then 
went back to the car and got the shopping bag.  He then revealed his 
secret - a two pound coffee can with a few holes poked in the side 
near the bottom.  We went up on the roof, disconnected the DATUM's 
antenna, and mounted it inside the coffee can.  He told me that you 
have to be sure the antenna and the coffee can are electrically (RF 
wise) connected together.  He then placed the coffee can on the roof 
orienting it so that it would have the best view of GPS satellites as 
possible given the site location and Coffee Can Aperture .  By the 
time we got back in the building the receiver was tracking four GPS 
birds and a short time later was happily doing its thing.


What he did was to use the coffee can as a waveguide beyond cutoff 
attenuator.  Not really as an attenuator, but as a high pass 
filter.  It did attenuate the FM band signal quite a bit and 
attenuated the UHF TV signal sufficiently so that it was no longer a 
problem for the system.  A few says later I went back to the site and 
installed the Hi Pass Filter in a large upside down bottle.  This 
ran reliably for several years until the Seiko project came to an end.


I have since done this same trick at a few transmitter sites on Mt. 
Wilson, which overlooks Los Angeles and is home to most of the 
Southern California FM and (now) DTV transmitters.


An aside:  When Seiko ended the project they wholesaled a lot of the 
non-proprietary equipment out.  I purchased four of the DATUM Time 
and Frequency receivers with Y2K updates.  One I gave to a FMT-Nuts 
buddy, one went to a buddy who runs a Metrology Lab and the other two 
are running in my shoppe.  See: http://www.k5cm.com/k6OQK%20FMT%20NEW.htm


Burt, K6OQK



Tom,

We had a similar problem at a BBC site when I was selling Datum in the UK.
We managed to get round the problem with a better antenna. The third
harmonic of the UHF wasn't slap bang on L1 but close enough with a basic GPS
antenna to kill GPS.

Rob

-Original Message-

Behalf Of Tom Miller
Sent: 27 September 2012 18:44
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?

Under other issues, I have one where GPS could not be used. It was at a UHF
TV station where the third harmonic fell right in the L1 band. A 220,000
watt UHF transmitter driving a gain antenna for 5 MW EIRP will always
produce some third harmonic near the antenna. There was no access to GPS
within 1 km of the site.

They were using the WWVB signal as the time and frequency reference.
Luckily, the conversion the DTV moved them to a new channel and now they can
use the GPS.

Tom


Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 



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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

2012-09-28 Thread Timeok


Il 2012-09-28 16:53 George Race ha scritto:

Hello to all the Time-Nuts:

 I Have been acquiring parts for a few weeks and finally have a
Thunderbolt-Trimble system up and running.

Though I would share a few pictures of what I did and how it looks 
now that

it is all together and working.



First, here is an overall look at what I have put together.



http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/TrimbleParts.jpg



I had to use the attenuator to reduce the amplitude of the 10MHz 
signal from
the Trimble.  It was overdriving the Extron causing distortion in the 
output

waveform.  The 6db attenuator is just what was needed.



I was running on a temporary old GPS antenna mounted on the edge of 
my
garage roof for a while.  I ordered a Trimble antenna from China, 
took about
10 days to get here.  What a difference that made in the overall 
signal

strength and stability of the unit.

Here is a Lady Heather shot after running on the antenna over night.



http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/MyLadyH.jpg



I am still having trouble knowing what all the indicators on the 
screen

mean, but it appears that everything is working.

Sure wish there was an index somewhere that told what each and every 
thing

on that screen means!



As I mentioned, the antenna arrived yesterday and I built a mount and
installed it yesterday afternoon.

Though you might like to see what I ended up doing.  We have a lot of 
rain,
snow, and ice here in Michigan, so I wanted to do something to 
protect the
antenna and connectors the best that I could from the elements.  
First, here
is a picture of the antenna from China, along with the adaptor cable 
to get
it to an “F” connector to hook to my 50 foot RG6U cable with “F” 
connectors

on each end.



http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/TrimbleAnt.jpg



Here is the mount that I built.  I am going to put it on my TV 
antenna mast
that is mounted on the house.  The 10 degree elevation pattern should 
see

open sky in all directions.

The mount is a piece of aluminum angle with a mast clamp on one end, 
the a
sealable tea container on the other.  The container is one of those 
push
button kitchen containers that has a very tight air seal when the 
button on
the lid is pressed in.  It really holds well, and you cannot remove 
the lid
when it is locked into place.  Also this configuration makes it 
really easy
to get to the antenna and connectors if necessary.  Just release the 
button
on the bottom and lift off the unit.  The “F” barrel connector 
through the
side of the container makes it easy to just unscrew the cable if 
necessary.
The seal on the container is about ¾ of an inch wide, and really 
holds on to

the inside of the container.



http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/BuildingTheMount.jpg



To hold the GPS antenna in place at the top of the container, I cut a 
small
aluminum plate, carefully drilled 3 holes for 2-56 hardware through 
the top
of the container, using the aluminum plate as a template.  The 
antenna is
“clamped” into place by bolting the plate up against the bottom of 
the
antenna, inside of the container.  You can see from the next picture 
how the

cable connectors and antenna wire is coiled up in the bottom of the
container, and terminates on the “F” barrel connector inside.  Looks 
like it

is all ready to put up on the roof and connect to the cable.



http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/ReadyToPutUp.jpg



Here it is, mounted about 25 feet above the ground, below the TV 
antenna.




http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/MountedHigh.jpg



And here is a close up of the finished installation.



http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/UpAndWorking.jpg



A lesson to be learned, about “F” connector barrels!



When I hooked up the basement end of the cable, total disappointment! 
On

the screen it said in yellow letters, “Antenna Open.”

As I had tested the system end to end, BEFORE I put it all in the 
container,

the only place that could be a problem was that “F” connector barrel.

I brought the container back down to the bench and carefully looked 
at the
connections.  It was so simple, and I had caused the problem during 
early
bench testing of the cables.  The jumper cable from the antenna to 
the inner
part of the “F” connector has a extremely small diameter center 
conductor.
On the other hand, the RG6U cable has a greatly oversize, compared to 
RG59U
cable, center conductor.  In testing I had pushed the RG6U center 
conductor

into both ends of the “F” barrel.  This pushed the center part of the
connector to its limits, and it did not close back down when the 
cable was
removed.   I installed a nice brand new “F” barrel into the side of 
the
container.   Starting the “F” connector on the inside barrel 
connection, I
could feel the center conductor pushing into the connector.  Taking 
it all

back to the roof, tightening the “F” connectors in place, solved the
problem!



Somebody is probably going to ask, what I am using this system for?  
I have

an HP synthesized signal generator

[time-nuts] George's GPS Antenna protection...

2012-09-28 Thread Burt I. Weiner


George,

You don't know from messy.  Trust me.

Burt, K6OQK

At 08:31 AM 9/28/2012, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote

Picture of the messy work bench below!

http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/TestEquipment.jpg

Comments and suggestion are always welcomed,

George


Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 



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Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...

2012-09-28 Thread Rob Kimberley

Hi Burt,

This sounds familiar! It wasn't a guy called Rich Bailey was it? That's what
he suggested I do, but I got onto Trimble and got one of their Bullet
antennae with the 3 pole filter (Bullet III?). 

That worked for us.

Rob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Burt I. Weiner
Sent: 28 September 2012 16:34
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...

I had a similar experience while working on the Seiko pager watch project
some years ago.  We were using DATUM GPS 9390 GPS receivers to time the
system at each FM station transmitter site.  One particular FM site on Edom
Hill near Palm Springs, California (U.S.A.) had a problem from not only the
associated FM transmitter but also from a nearby UHF TV running a bazillion
or so Watts ERP.  We finally installed a Symerticom WWVB receiver, but that
was not as reliable as we needed.  Not because of any interference, but
because of propagation issues at 60 kHz at this mountain top site.

I called DATUM to see about filters that could be put ahead of the antenna.
The fellow I talked to lived within 50 miles of the site.  We
intellectualized for a while and finally agreed that I would pick him up in
the morning and take him to the site. Well, when I picked him up he had a
shopping bag that he put in the back seat.  We had planned on getting
something to eat before we went up the mountain so I asked, Bringing a
snack?  He said, No, it's a surprise.  I also had one of the DATUM
receiver running in my car off of 12 Volts with the antenna attached to my
roof mount.

As we approached the site the receiver in my car lost all satellites.  He
looked at the receiver in the Seiko system and then went back to the car and
got the shopping bag.  He then revealed his secret - a two pound coffee can
with a few holes poked in the side near the bottom.  We went up on the roof,
disconnected the DATUM's antenna, and mounted it inside the coffee can.  He
told me that you have to be sure the antenna and the coffee can are
electrically (RF
wise) connected together.  He then placed the coffee can on the roof
orienting it so that it would have the best view of GPS satellites as
possible given the site location and Coffee Can Aperture .  By the time we
got back in the building the receiver was tracking four GPS birds and a
short time later was happily doing its thing.

What he did was to use the coffee can as a waveguide beyond cutoff
attenuator.  Not really as an attenuator, but as a high pass filter.  It did
attenuate the FM band signal quite a bit and attenuated the UHF TV signal
sufficiently so that it was no longer a problem for the system.  A few says
later I went back to the site and installed the Hi Pass Filter in a large
upside down bottle.  This ran reliably for several years until the Seiko
project came to an end.

I have since done this same trick at a few transmitter sites on Mt. 
Wilson, which overlooks Los Angeles and is home to most of the Southern
California FM and (now) DTV transmitters.

An aside:  When Seiko ended the project they wholesaled a lot of the
non-proprietary equipment out.  I purchased four of the DATUM Time and
Frequency receivers with Y2K updates.  One I gave to a FMT-Nuts 
buddy, one went to a buddy who runs a Metrology Lab and the other two are
running in my shoppe.  See: http://www.k5cm.com/k6OQK%20FMT%20NEW.htm

Burt, K6OQK


Tom,

We had a similar problem at a BBC site when I was selling Datum in the UK.
We managed to get round the problem with a better antenna. The third 
harmonic of the UHF wasn't slap bang on L1 but close enough with a 
basic GPS antenna to kill GPS.

Rob

-Original Message-

Behalf Of Tom Miller
Sent: 27 September 2012 18:44
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?

Under other issues, I have one where GPS could not be used. It was at a 
UHF TV station where the third harmonic fell right in the L1 band. A 
220,000 watt UHF transmitter driving a gain antenna for 5 MW EIRP will 
always produce some third harmonic near the antenna. There was no 
access to GPS within 1 km of the site.

They were using the WWVB signal as the time and frequency reference.
Luckily, the conversion the DTV moved them to a new channel and now 
they can use the GPS.

Tom

Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 


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Re: [time-nuts] George's GPS Antenna protection...

 Picture of the messy work bench below!

 http://www.mrrace.com/TrimbleGPS/TestEquipment.jpg

No way!   Does not count if you can actually SEE the workbench
surface.   Even the screw drivers are lined up neatly.
-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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[time-nuts] Up And Running

2012-09-28 Thread Gregory Muir

Hi George,

Your setup looks like a good approach to what you need for your requirements.

I was looking at the weatherproof enclosure for your antenna.  If I am correct, 
you have a total seal with regards to that container.  The fasteners that pass 
through the enclosure on the top, are they utilizing any method of seal around 
themselves?  I would be a little worried about the sealed container breathing 
with temperature changes and drawing moisture in around the fastener if they 
aren't sealed in any fashion.

Normally outdoor enclosures and antenna radomes contain some sort of small weep 
hole to drain any moisture that may enter the enclosure or vent to equalize 
pressure changes with temperature.  With the design of that container, a weep 
hole may not be practical given the deeper seal arrangement but a small 
pressure relief vent may help.  And if you continue to utilize this design, a 
dab of RTV over each screw head would also help immensely. 

Greg




On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:53:25 -0400, George Race geo...@mrrace.com wrote:

Hello to all the Time-Nuts: 

 I Have been acquiring parts for a few weeks and finally have a
Thunderbolt-Trimble system up and running.

Though I would share a few pictures of what I did and how it looks now that
it is all together and working.

remainder snipped

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[time-nuts] Question about listing equipment here

I have a good size offering of vintage electronic equipment that I would
like to get rid of, mostly 50's and 60's stuff from HP, Tek, Boonton,
Stoddart, ect.Is it permissible to post the listing here, along with
pictures, or is there another place that would be more appropriate.

 

Thanks,

George

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Re: [time-nuts] BPSK Receiver GPS Antenna siting

Hi

Legal or not, that's the way the titles are all written around here. The
logic is visual pollution. You are fine displaying the flag. It's the free
standing pole they prohibit.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bill Dailey
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 10:32 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] BPSK Receiver  GPS Antenna siting

I don't think it is legal to prohibit flag poles

Sent from my iPhone and Hunter Lambert is my hero!

On Sep 28, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:

 Hi
 
 Flag poles are prohibited.
 
 Bob
 
 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of Randy D. Hunt
 Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:24 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] BPSK Receiver  GPS Antenna siting
 
 On 9/27/2012 4:20 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi
 
 At least in my back yard, a 6' tall tripod would be very noticeable from
a
 number of directions. There are many others in similar situations. If I
were
 to interpret the restrictions literally as written, an antenna that was
 inside the house, but visible through an open window is also a violation.
 
 Bob
 
 
 On Sep 27, 2012, at 7:11 PM, johncr...@aol.com wrote:
 
 Various comments -
 
 Hal mentioned SNR for the scheme I suggested. A PLL can be a coherent
 demodulator of arbitrary
 bandwidth. Thus the PLL at the output of the doubler can have a small
 bandwidth since at that point
 there is no PSK, it having been removed by the doubler. So given a
stable
 VCXO you can probably get down
 to 1 Hz and thereby achieve a good SNR. There is a lot of stuff out
there
 on phase tracking receivers
 that do exactly that. You know the frequency so the loop does not have
to
 search far and the BW can be increased
 for acquisition and closed up for tracking.
 
 On writing reams of code - my point was that it is not required to used
 the admittedly more powerful software
 techniques to do this job - I noted that one reason to write reams of
 code is for the fun of it, this is after all
 a hobby.
 
 GPS Antenna Siting -
 
 Lets not make this so hard. Mine is at 6 ft elevation and is blocked to
 an elevation angle of 20 to 30 degrees by a house
 within 15 ft and a forest of trees. I have room and no restrictions but
I
 also have severe thunderstorms - so the house
 plays lightning protect for the antenna. My T bolt tracks a Rb to better
 than 1e-12 over 24  hours with no serious 10 MHz phase bumps
 as plotted on a  strip chart recorder.
 
 So  -
 
 Put your antenna at 6 ft in back yard. Start out on a photo tripod - who
 is gonna notice?
 set up a t bolt at EL=5 AMU=0 Damping = 1.2 and Time Constant = 100 sec.
 get the t bolt manual
 get Tbolt monitor
 get Lady Heather and read all that stuff.
 
 Run Lady Heather antenna survey (command SAS)  for at least two days -
 you get a map of signal level in dBc vs elevation
 Reset the Tbolt elevation mask to reject anything that is shown as
 blocked using the signal
 level map. Likewise experiment with the AMU setting to reject the weak =
 poor signals. Mine works good
 with AMU all the way up to 10 as fewer good satellites are better than
 lots of weak ones.
 
 The satellites are in high orbits so masking those below 25 degrees is
OK
 and the AMU sets the acceptable signal
 level - at AMU 10 my setup throws out those below about 40 dBc - the
 strong guys go up to 50. This is a function
 of you antenna performance so some experimentation is required.
 
 -73 john k6iql
 
 
 
 
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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 and follow the instructions there.
 
 Put up a flagpole.
 
 Randy, KI6WAS
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Question about listing equipment here

Hi

Probably easier to put the pictures up on Photo Bucket or some other free
picture site. Then refer to them in a message. That way you don't choke a
bunch of email servers...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of George Race
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 12:11 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Question about listing equipment here

I have a good size offering of vintage electronic equipment that I would
like to get rid of, mostly 50's and 60's stuff from HP, Tek, Boonton,
Stoddart, ect.Is it permissible to post the listing here, along with
pictures, or is there another place that would be more appropriate.

 

Thanks,

George

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[time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...

2012-09-28 Thread Burt I. Weiner

Yes, Rob, It was Rich Bailey. A good guy! He worked for DATUM in 
Anaheim, CA and as I recall, he lived in Riverside. I noticed that he 
didn't wear a watch and when I jokingly commented about it, 
considering what he did for a living, he told me that he had been so 
aware of precise time for so many years that he got tired of knowing 
precisely what time it was. We had fun together that day.


Burt, K6OQK



From: Rob Kimberley robkimber...@btinternet.com
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...


Hi Burt,

This sounds familiar! It wasn't a guy called Rich Bailey was it? That's what
he suggested I do, but I got onto Trimble and got one of their Bullet
antennae with the 3 pole filter (Bullet III?).

That worked for us.

Rob


Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 



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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

2012-09-28 Thread Bill Hawkins

Not sure it's a good idea to seal the antenna in a plastic box.
Must get hot in there. And mounting it under a big Yagi?

I considered using a puck antenna and protecting it with a
black plastic conical cap that is used to keep seagulls off
the top of dock pilings. Air could circulate under the cap.
Tested the cap in a microwave oven, stayed cool. Didn't use
it, though, got a HP conical outdoor antenna instead.

Why would you want to attenuate the precision of the time
signal by 6 db? The caption says, Precision Attenuator. :-)

Bill Hawkins


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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

2012-09-28 Thread Bill Riches

Nice job George

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May, NJ




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Re: [time-nuts] Question about listing equipment here

2012-09-28 Thread John Ackermann N8UR


On 9/28/2012 12:10 PM, George Race wrote:

I have a good size offering of vintage electronic equipment that I would
like to get rid of, mostly 50's and 60's stuff from HP, Tek, Boonton,
Stoddart, ect.Is it permissible to post the listing here, along with
pictures, or is there another place that would be more appropriate.


Hi George --

It's OK to post a one-time listing, but I think you'll find the message 
size limit of 128K will make pictures challenging.


By the way, nice job on the Tbolt and amplifier!

73,
John


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB / Xtendwave patents

2012-09-28 Thread Joe Gwinn

The US changed over to the rest-of-world patent system, where patent 
applications are public for a period before grant, precisely to get 
input from the entire technical community.


The granted patent (8270465) would be hard to overturn at this point.

As for the patent application (2012/0082008), one can file comments 
against a patent application pointing out prior art and suggesting 
that something being claimed is in fact obvious to those skilled in 
the art.  For prior art, one points out existing patents and 
published articles.  Simple assertions are not sufficient.  The 
Patent Office will then consider all prior art received when deciding 
to grant or to deny a patent.


Joe Gwinn

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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

2012-09-28 Thread Gregory Muir

George,

Don't need much of a hole.  I wouldn't go past a single 1/16 one or so.  That 
would be small enough to keep most critters out of the container.

From what I can observe, that gasket is recessed down below the inner surface 
of the cover with the container inverted as it is.  Any moisture that would 
collect would first run down into this recess before it would reach the 
surface of the cover and have a chance to drain.  This could result in 
collection of the moisture resulting in winter time freezing and possible 
cracking of the container.  If you are to drill a weep hole, it might be 
better to try to do it in the lid from up underneath right above the gasket 
(providing the lid outer {now downwards] surface is recessed).  Coming up from 
below would help keep anything from getting driven inside from high winds 
carrying wetness.  That might take some doing if you are hanging off the tower 
trying to drill a tiny hole and not allow it to go entirely through both the 
lid and the container.

Don't mean to spoil your day!!  I have encountered too many moisture problems 
with supposedly well-designed commercial products designed to be mounted in the 
great outdoors.  Although, I have seen some good designs as well incorporating 
such approaches as pressure relief valves and expansion membranes incorporating 
desiccant inside the enclosure, etc.  But we're not building military hardware 
here.

Also, Bill Hawkins had a good comment regarding heat buildup inside the 
container.  Something to keep in the back of your mind.

Greg

On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:06:02 -0400, George Race geo...@mrrace.com wrote:

Hi Greg, appreciate your concern and comments.

I did put a dab of jell super glue on each of the screw heads, after they
were tightened down,  I then wiped them clean.  Maybe a bit of RTV would be
appropriate as well.

I did not put any weep holes in the cover, which is now the bottom of the
assembly.  It would be quite easy to drill up through the whole assembly,
into the container, through the center of the push button which is about 2
inches in diameter.  A piece of fine mesh screen inside and out would keep
away the hornets and other intruders.

All good suggestion!  Looks like at least one more trip on to the roof!

Thanks,
George



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Re: [time-nuts] Question about listing equipment here

2012-09-28 Thread paul swed

George
I think as a non professional time-nut a list is fine. Always good to find
good homes over the trash bin. The big problem I think for all time-nuts is
the ebay folks coming to town.
I would be interested in what you have please email me directly.
Regards
Paul

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 12:18 PM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:

 If it's genetral test gear, might get a better response on:

 Tekscopes2
 HP_Agilent
 Boonton
 TestEquipTrader

 All are Yahoo Groups.

 -Jhn

 


  I have a good size offering of vintage electronic equipment that I would
  like to get rid of, mostly 50's and 60's stuff from HP, Tek, Boonton,
  Stoddart, ect.Is it permissible to post the listing here, along with
  pictures, or is there another place that would be more appropriate.
 
 
 
  Thanks,
 
  George
 
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  and follow the instructions there.
 
 



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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

Hi Bill, see my comments below.

Not sure it's a good idea to seal the antenna in a plastic box.
Definitely will vent it from the bottom!
Must get hot in there. And mounting it under a big Yagi?
Uda would be pleasantly surprised to see what has evolved from his first
antenna!

I considered using a puck antenna and protecting it with a
black plastic conical cap that is used to keep seagulls off
the top of dock pilings. Air could circulate under the cap.
Tested the cap in a microwave oven, stayed cool. Didn't use
it, though, got a HP conical outdoor antenna instead.

Why would you want to attenuate the precision of the time
signal by 6 db? The caption says, Precision Attenuator. :-)
Was worried the signal would come out as a 5MHz sine wave, but it did not!
:-;
But, it does turn the 5 volt P to P that comes out of the Trimble into 2.5
volt P to P.
It must be a Precision Broadband Amplitude Only Sine Wave Signal Attenuator
Thing-E!  
Guess you could call it a PBAOSWSATE for short! 

All the best,
George

Bill Hawkins


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[time-nuts] Equipment Listing

After thinking about it for a bit, I  am not going to post my equipment list
here.

 

Instead it will be on the EEVBlog.  

 

After I do the listing I will post a link here so those of you who may have
interest can take a look.

 

On the EEVBlog they encourage advertising your used equipment for sale.

 

George

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[time-nuts] Best GPSDO

2012-09-28 Thread Murray Greenman


Ulrich,
I think this is a bit like discussing one's favourite wine or favourite 
stereo! Especially since many of the participants here will not have the 
capability to compare GPSDO performance reliably.


I have a few GPSDOs, and it's my impression that of them all the Agilent 
Z3815A with MTI260 DOCXO has the best phase noise. Of course these units 
were originally equipped with an E1938A, and the later MTI260 version is not 
as common.


I also have an E1938A, which I operate standalone. It is very impressive, 
excellent AD, in fact my best source now that I've given away my HP 5065A. 
There is some phase noise well away from the carrier, but I've put that down 
to my own construction (switching power supply noise).


Another of my favourites with low phase noise is the Trimble/Nortel 
NTGS50AA, which has a CMAC/Rakon CFPO-DO OCXO. I've had no opportunity to 
measure the AD apart from what Lady Heather reports. This unit is physically 
large but is not power hungry and talks to LH very well.


I also own a Z3801A, a Samsung GCRU-D and a small homebrew GPSDO with a 
CFPO-DO. Sorry, no Timepod for comparisons.


73,
Murray ZL1BPU


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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

2012-09-28 Thread Charles P. Steinmetz




I did put a dab of jell super glue on each of the screw heads, after they
were tightened down,  I then wiped them clean.  Maybe a bit of RTV would be
appropriate as well.


If you are trying to weatherproof an outdoor item, you will probably 
find that 3M 5200 marine adhesive/sealant is the best product for the 
job.  That said, I'd be worried about temperature/humidity cycling as 
mentioned by others, because you will never get a 100% hermetic seal 
-- so some version of a weep hole and other moisture preventive 
measures may be in order.


Best regards,

Charles





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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

2012-09-28 Thread George Dubovsky

I have lots of little switch boxes, matching networks, amplifiers, etc,
mounted outside, usually in gasketed boxes from Bud and Hammond. I put a
0.050 hole in the bottom of all of them. It has proven to be large enough
to stay clear of debris and small enough to keep little critters out. I
even have some mounted on wooden posts less than a foot above the ground
(in Virginia) and, to my surprise, ants have not been an issue.

73,

geo - n4ua

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 1:06 PM, George Race geo...@mrrace.com wrote:

 Hi Greg, appreciate your concern and comments.

 I did put a dab of jell super glue on each of the screw heads, after they
 were tightened down,  I then wiped them clean.  Maybe a bit of RTV would be
 appropriate as well.

 I did not put any weep holes in the cover, which is now the bottom of the
 assembly.  It would be quite easy to drill up through the whole assembly,
 into the container, through the center of the push button which is about 2
 inches in diameter.  A piece of fine mesh screen inside and out would keep
 away the hornets and other intruders.

 All good suggestion!  Looks like at least one more trip on to the roof!

 Thanks,
 George

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of Gregory Muir
 Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 11:58 AM
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] Up And Running

 Hi George,

 Your setup looks like a good approach to what you need for your
 requirements.

 I was looking at the weatherproof enclosure for your antenna.  If I am
 correct, you have a total seal with regards to that container.  The
 fasteners that pass through the enclosure on the top, are they utilizing
 any
 method of seal around themselves?  I would be a little worried about the
 sealed container breathing with temperature changes and drawing moisture
 in around the fastener if they aren't sealed in any fashion.

 Normally outdoor enclosures and antenna radomes contain some sort of small
 weep hole to drain any moisture that may enter the enclosure or vent to
 equalize pressure changes with temperature.  With the design of that
 container, a weep hole may not be practical given the deeper seal
 arrangement but a small pressure relief vent may help.  And if you continue
 to utilize this design, a dab of RTV over each screw head would also help
 immensely.

 Greg




 On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:53:25 -0400, George Race geo...@mrrace.com
 wrote:

 Hello to all the Time-Nuts:

  I Have been acquiring parts for a few weeks and finally have a
 Thunderbolt-Trimble system up and running.

 Though I would share a few pictures of what I did and how it looks now that
 it is all together and working.

 remainder snipped

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[time-nuts] antenna restrictions

2012-09-28 Thread Chris Howard



I don't see what the problem is
with HOA's and antenna restrictions.

I just put a mag-mount antenna on the car
that's up on blocks in the driveway.





( a bit of Mississippi humor for your Friday afternoon :-)  )

peace!

Chris
Columbus, MS

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Receiver

2012-09-28 Thread Lester Veenstra

This illustrates a process lost to many building data demods.  
There is no need in many cases to be a hurry to get the from the front door
to the back door of a process.

Iterative processing of the demodulation process, each step making a best
but poor estimate, and the reprocessing the stream using the results of
previous passes to improve the demodulation accuracy.



Lester B Veenstra  MØYCM K1YCM W8YCM
les...@veenstras.com

US Postal Address:
5 Shrine Club Drive
HC84 Box 89C
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.33675 N  78.9823527 W

Telephones:
Home:        +1-304-289-6057
US cell   +1-304-790-9192 
Guam Cell: +1-671-929-8141
Jamaica:    +1-876-352-7504 
 
This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or
privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by
the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the
intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to
the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution
or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Jim Lux
Sent: 27 September 2012 18:26
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Receiver

On 9/27/12 7:23 AM, J. Forster wrote:
 Jim,

 What you are suggesting is essentially a spread spectrum system where the
 chip pattern is time varient.

 IMO, this is an incredible kludge. And, there is no gurantee that the
 algorythm for generating the chip pattern will not change down the road.



I think I poorly explained what I was thinking.

Store the raw samples
Run the samples through a demodulator to recover the bits using whatever 
technique works best: for instance, you can make your symbol transition 
decisions based on many bits at once, as opposed to only those you have 
already seen.

Then, take those decoded bits and use them in a second pass through the 
data to remove the bits (sort of like the inphase arm in a Costas loop) 
so you can get a carrier only version of the input signal (with some 
noise at the symbol boundaries, most likely).
Excise the transitions where the SNR is lower.
Then, do your carrier frequency and phase recovery on what's left over.

There's probably some elegant approach to deciding what to excise and 
what not to.

But, in any case, no a priori knowledge of the bits is needed.


(We did something like this at JPL to recover telemetry bits from 
Phoenix coming out of the plasma on EDL.  Recover the carrier and symbol 
timing when you're farther down and then run the demodulator backwards 
in time).   It's always easier to track than to acquire, after all, so 
why not acquire later when the signal is strong, and track backwards to 
where the signal is weak.




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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

2012-09-28 Thread Lester Veenstra

The secret is to keep your equipment warm(er), then when the trapped humid
air condenses, it condenses on a colder surface, hopefully eventually
running down to the hole you left at the lowest point. The existence of such
a hole, that is a non fully sealed package, means there is less chance for
ingested hot humid air to be trapped and condense in the first place.
Sometimes you need to dissipate power in your system simply to create the
elevated temperature if otherwise your system is so efficient. Unless you
are going to start helium leak test, I seriously doubt the your airtight
package is. I have been known to add a always on light bulb, for example.


Lester B Veenstra  MØYCM K1YCM W8YCM
les...@veenstras.com

US Postal Address:
5 Shrine Club Drive
HC84 Box 89C
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.33675 N  78.9823527 W

Telephones:
Home:        +1-304-289-6057
US cell   +1-304-790-9192 
Guam Cell: +1-671-929-8141
Jamaica:    +1-876-352-7504 
 
This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or
privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by
the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the
intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to
the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution
or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is
prohibited.


-Original Message
..That said, I'd be worried about temperature/humidity cycling
as 
mentioned by others, because you will never get a 100% hermetic seal 
-- so some version of a weep hole and other moisture preventive 
measures may be in order.

Best regards,

Charles



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Re: [time-nuts] Best GPSDO

how important is the close in phase noise of a 10MHz reference?  I
means after all, the oscillator you are measuring, say the local
oscillator in a receivers or whatever,  is likely not running at 10MHz
so you have some step where you convert your t-bolt reference to the
desired freq. using either DDS or a synthesizer and I'd bet that step
introduces more noise and is the weak link.

I did mean this as a question because I really don't know how to
compute the effect.  Say my DDS needs 120MHz clock and I PLL  that
120Mhz clock to my t-bolt and then the DDS as asked to outout 14.5MHz.
 How do phase noise in the 10MHz t-bolt output effect the DDS' 14.5
output.   Or does it even matter compared to all the noise from other
sources.  Is there a simple rule of thumb?

OK, maybe we are not really doing any real-measurements, just
comparing 10MHz standards to each other? But the above assumes the end
goal is some real-world device who performance we want to determine.



On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Murray Greenman denw...@orcon.net.nz wrote:
 Ulrich,
 I think this is a bit like discussing one's favourite wine or favourite
 stereo! Especially since many of the participants here will not have the
 capability to compare GPSDO performance reliably.

 I have a few GPSDOs, and it's my impression that of them all the Agilent
 Z3815A with MTI260 DOCXO has the best phase noise. Of course these units
 were originally equipped with an E1938A, and the later MTI260 version is not
 as common.

 I also have an E1938A, which I operate standalone. It is very impressive,
 excellent AD, in fact my best source now that I've given away my HP 5065A.
 There is some phase noise well away from the carrier, but I've put that down
 to my own construction (switching power supply noise).

 Another of my favourites with low phase noise is the Trimble/Nortel
 NTGS50AA, which has a CMAC/Rakon CFPO-DO OCXO. I've had no opportunity to
 measure the AD apart from what Lady Heather reports. This unit is physically
 large but is not power hungry and talks to LH very well.

 I also own a Z3801A, a Samsung GCRU-D and a small homebrew GPSDO with a
 CFPO-DO. Sorry, no Timepod for comparisons.

 73,
 Murray ZL1BPU


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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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[time-nuts] TED Talk: John Lloyd: An animated tour of the invisible

2012-09-28 Thread Brooke Clarke


Hi:

Includes some reference to time.
http://www.ted.com/talks/john_lloyd_an_animated_tour_of_the_invisible.html

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html


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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

 Normally outdoor enclosures and antenna radomes contain some sort of small 
 weep hole to drain any moisture that may enter the enclosure or vent to 
 equalize pressure changes with temperature.


Not mine.  The outdoor timing GPS antennas I have use an O-ring to
form a completely 100% waterproof seal.  The radomes are pressure
tight and in my estimation would hold at least two atmosphere of
pressure in either direction.  I think this is pretty common for GPS
antenna.

Spend $30 and buy a real outdoor GPS antenna and it will have a
pointed top and will be 100% sealed.  Mount it on the end of a 1 iron
pipe the cable goes down the pipe.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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[time-nuts] Wenzel oscillator question

2012-09-28 Thread cdelect

Hi,

I have a Wenzel oscillator that I don't remember where I got it.

I think I removed it from an instrument as it has a sticker on it labeled
A3A1.

It's a model 500-09802D 5Mhz oscillator with 2 BNC and one SMA
connectors, a ground pin and 3 other pins.

The label indicates +15 and +20VDC.

Does anyone know the pinout showing which pins are the power pins?

Also is the SMA an EFC input?

Thanks,

Corby

Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5066169a41cae169a1648st03duc

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[time-nuts] Link to 50's 60's test equipment that I would like to get rid of

Here is the link where you can download or look at the pictures of the used
equipment I have available.

 

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipm
ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549

 

Please let me know if you need information on any or all of the items.

 

Would consider trading it all for a nice used good quality Spectrum
Analyzer.

 

George

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Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's 60's test equipment that I would like to get rid of

2012-09-28 Thread Richard W. Solomon

Link does not work. 

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-Original Message-
From: George Race geo...@mrrace.com
Sent: Sep 28, 2012 2:35 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Link to 50's  60's test equipment that I would like to   
get rid of

Here is the link where you can download or look at the pictures of the used
equipment I have available.

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipm
ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549

Please let me know if you need information on any or all of the items.

Would consider trading it all for a nice used good quality Spectrum
Analyzer.

George

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Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's 60's test equipment that I would like toget rid of

2012-09-28 Thread Ron Ward

Hi George:
I would be interested in the Tektronix RM17 and maybe the Tektronix 515.
Do you have a UPS Store or the like near you? You can let them do the
packing with extra bubble wrap for the front panel of the scope(S).
Thanks,
Ron

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of George Race
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 2:35 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Link to 50's  60's test equipment that I would like
toget rid of

Here is the link where you can download or look at the pictures of the used
equipment I have available.

 

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipm
ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549

 

Please let me know if you need information on any or all of the items.

 

Would consider trading it all for a nice used good quality Spectrum
Analyzer.

 

George

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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

2012-09-28 Thread Lester Veenstra

 completely 100% waterproof seal; famous last words, in the absence of a
dry nitrogen pressurization.


Lester B Veenstra  MØYCM K1YCM W8YCM
les...@veenstras.com

US Postal Address:
5 Shrine Club Drive
HC84 Box 89C
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.33675 N  78.9823527 W

Telephones:
Home:        +1-304-289-6057
US cell   +1-304-790-9192 
Guam Cell: +1-671-929-8141
Jamaica:    +1-876-352-7504 
 
This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or
privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by
the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the
intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to
the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution
or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: 28 September 2012 16:55
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

 Normally outdoor enclosures and antenna radomes contain some sort of small
weep hole to drain any moisture that may enter the enclosure or vent to
equalize pressure changes with temperature.


Not mine.  The outdoor timing GPS antennas I have use an O-ring to
form a completely 100% waterproof seal.  The radomes are pressure
tight and in my estimation would hold at least two atmosphere of
pressure in either direction.  I think this is pretty common for GPS
antenna.

Spend $30 and buy a real outdoor GPS antenna and it will have a
pointed top and will be 100% sealed.  Mount it on the end of a 1 iron
pipe the cable goes down the pipe.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's 60's test equipment that I would like to get rid of

2012-09-28 Thread Hal Murray

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipm
ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549

 Link does not work. 

It's fairly common for mail sending software to break long URLs.
You can usually spot it and glue the chunks back together by hand.



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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[time-nuts] Antenna Restrictions

2012-09-28 Thread johncroos

Chris - your solution worked for me - until the grass covered my old PU 
truck.


-73 john k6iql

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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running

2012-09-28 Thread Pete Lancashire

If you don't get all the H20 out, which for the regular Joe is very
hard to do having the small vent hole is the way to go.

If your worried about critter, there are quite a few hole plugs
available just for this purpose.

-pete

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Lester Veenstra les...@veenstras.com wrote:
 The secret is to keep your equipment warm(er), then when the trapped humid
 air condenses, it condenses on a colder surface, hopefully eventually
 running down to the hole you left at the lowest point. The existence of such
 a hole, that is a non fully sealed package, means there is less chance for
 ingested hot humid air to be trapped and condense in the first place.
 Sometimes you need to dissipate power in your system simply to create the
 elevated temperature if otherwise your system is so efficient. Unless you
 are going to start helium leak test, I seriously doubt the your airtight
 package is. I have been known to add a always on light bulb, for example.


 Lester B Veenstra  MØYCM K1YCM W8YCM
 les...@veenstras.com

 US Postal Address:
 5 Shrine Club Drive
 HC84 Box 89C
 Keyser WV 26726
 GPS: 39.33675 N  78.9823527 W

 Telephones:
 Home:+1-304-289-6057
 US cell   +1-304-790-9192
 Guam Cell: +1-671-929-8141
 Jamaica:+1-876-352-7504

 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or
 privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by
 the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the
 intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to
 the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution
 or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is
 prohibited.


 -Original Message
 ..That said, I'd be worried about temperature/humidity cycling
 as
 mentioned by others, because you will never get a 100% hermetic seal
 -- so some version of a weep hole and other moisture preventive
 measures may be in order.

 Best regards,

 Charles



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Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's 60's test equipment that I would like to get rid of

I just entered the following, from below, and it worked.
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipm
ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549em 

I think the problem may be that it wrapped around and you have extra 
possibly in the middle.
George

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Hal Murray
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 6:06 PM
To: Richard W. Solomon; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's  60's test equipment that I would
like to get rid of

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equi
pm
ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549

 Link does not work. 

It's fairly common for mail sending software to break long URLs.
You can usually spot it and glue the chunks back together by hand.



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's 60's test equipment that I would like to get rid of

2012-09-28 Thread Richard W. Solomon

I did a copy and paste of the entire URL and it still won't work. Maybe 
the site doesn't like Firefox or those % signs are corrupting it.

That's why God invented TinyURL !!

73, Dick, W1KSZ


-Original Message-
From: George Race geo...@mrrace.com
Sent: Sep 28, 2012 4:28 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's  60's test equipment that I would   
like to get rid of

I just entered the following, from below, and it worked.
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipm
ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549em 

I think the problem may be that it wrapped around and you have extra 
possibly in the middle.
George

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Hal Murray
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 6:06 PM
To: Richard W. Solomon; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's  60's test equipment that I would
like to get rid of

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equi
pm
ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549

 Link does not work. 

It's fairly common for mail sending software to break long URLs.
You can usually spot it and glue the chunks back together by hand.



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Best GPSDO

HI

Sort of an open ended question, but there is a fairly simple couple answers:

SInce it's close in phase noise and not far removed, things like PLL's are 
going to transfer it directly from the reference to the output. It will of 
course scale by 20 log N where N is the amount you multiplied or divided the 
reference frequency by. Double the frequency and the phase noise goes up by 6 
db. 

If you look at jitter, measured in the time domain. It will stay constant as 
you scale frequency. That's provided it's dominated by phase noise in the 
frequency range that the 20 log N rule applies. If you strip off noise with a 
filter (or what ever) jitter will go down. 

If you are building a receiver, phase noise will limit the selectivity of the 
radio. If you are looking at very tight selectivity, then close in phase noise 
matters.

Past that, we get out of the fairly simple stuff.

Bob

On Sep 28, 2012, at 4:44 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote:

 how important is the close in phase noise of a 10MHz reference?  I
 means after all, the oscillator you are measuring, say the local
 oscillator in a receivers or whatever,  is likely not running at 10MHz
 so you have some step where you convert your t-bolt reference to the
 desired freq. using either DDS or a synthesizer and I'd bet that step
 introduces more noise and is the weak link.
 
 I did mean this as a question because I really don't know how to
 compute the effect.  Say my DDS needs 120MHz clock and I PLL  that
 120Mhz clock to my t-bolt and then the DDS as asked to outout 14.5MHz.
 How do phase noise in the 10MHz t-bolt output effect the DDS' 14.5
 output.   Or does it even matter compared to all the noise from other
 sources.  Is there a simple rule of thumb?
 
 OK, maybe we are not really doing any real-measurements, just
 comparing 10MHz standards to each other? But the above assumes the end
 goal is some real-world device who performance we want to determine.
 
 
 
 On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Murray Greenman denw...@orcon.net.nz 
 wrote:
 Ulrich,
 I think this is a bit like discussing one's favourite wine or favourite
 stereo! Especially since many of the participants here will not have the
 capability to compare GPSDO performance reliably.
 
 I have a few GPSDOs, and it's my impression that of them all the Agilent
 Z3815A with MTI260 DOCXO has the best phase noise. Of course these units
 were originally equipped with an E1938A, and the later MTI260 version is not
 as common.
 
 I also have an E1938A, which I operate standalone. It is very impressive,
 excellent AD, in fact my best source now that I've given away my HP 5065A.
 There is some phase noise well away from the carrier, but I've put that down
 to my own construction (switching power supply noise).
 
 Another of my favourites with low phase noise is the Trimble/Nortel
 NTGS50AA, which has a CMAC/Rakon CFPO-DO OCXO. I've had no opportunity to
 measure the AD apart from what Lady Heather reports. This unit is physically
 large but is not power hungry and talks to LH very well.
 
 I also own a Z3801A, a Samsung GCRU-D and a small homebrew GPSDO with a
 CFPO-DO. Sorry, no Timepod for comparisons.
 
 73,
 Murray ZL1BPU
 
 
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 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 
 
 
 -- 
 
 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's 60's test equipment that I would like to get rid of

2012-09-28 Thread dlewis6767

copy/ paste into MSWord.  take out the carat and do a return (enter) at the 
end.


It will turn blue (link) and it will connect using a ctrl-enter.

-Don





--
From: Richard W. Solomon w1...@earthlink.net
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 7:12 PM
To: geo...@mrrace.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's  60's test equipment that Iwould	like 
to get rid of



I did a copy and paste of the entire URL and it still won't work. Maybe
the site doesn't like Firefox or those % signs are corrupting it.

That's why God invented TinyURL !!

73, Dick, W1KSZ


-Original Message-

From: George Race geo...@mrrace.com
Sent: Sep 28, 2012 4:28 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' 
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's  60's test equipment that I would 
like to get rid of


I just entered the following, from below, and it worked.
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipm
ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549em

I think the problem may be that it wrapped around and you have extra 
possibly in the middle.
George

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Hal Murray
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 6:06 PM
To: Richard W. Solomon; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's  60's test equipment that I would
like to get rid of


http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equi

pm

ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549



Link does not work.


It's fairly common for mail sending software to break long URLs.
You can usually spot it and glue the chunks back together by hand.



--
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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and follow the instructions there.



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Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's 60's test equipment that I would like to get rid of

2012-09-28 Thread jim s



There is a space after 49em which messes up a copy if you don't watch out.

I tried bitly and and tinyrul couldn't get it to work with the 
contracted link.  They aren't

storing something.


http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipm,ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549em

The above is inserted as both the text and as an html link in my email, 
maybe it will work.


If you copy it be sure you copy from http... thru 549em and don't 
get anything but the
line wrap in your copy and paste.  both George's original URL and the 
original of his one

quoted below worked, with the caveat about the trailing space.

Jim

On 9/28/2012 4:28 PM, George Race wrote:

I just entered the following, from below, and it worked.
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipm
ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549em

I think the problem may be that it wrapped around and you have extra 
possibly in the middle.
George



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[time-nuts] messy workbenches

2012-09-28 Thread Grant Saviers

George's is a far distant competitor to the bench of the late Jim 
Williams, see 
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/an-analog-life-remembering-jim-williams/


Which was on display at the Computer History Museum and just was 
returned to Linear Tech.


Grant Saviers

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Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's 60's test equipment that I would like to get rid of

2012-09-28 Thread Bill Dailey

There is a comma in equipment messing that link up

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 28, 2012, at 7:54 PM, jim s j...@jwsss.com wrote:

 
 There is a space after 49em which messes up a copy if you don't watch out.
 
 I tried bitly and and tinyrul couldn't get it to work with the contracted 
 link.  They aren't
 storing something.
 
 
 http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipm,ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549em
 
 The above is inserted as both the text and as an html link in my email, maybe 
 it will work.
 
 If you copy it be sure you copy from http... thru 549em and don't get 
 anything but the
 line wrap in your copy and paste.  both George's original URL and the 
 original of his one
 quoted below worked, with the caveat about the trailing space.
 
 Jim
 
 On 9/28/2012 4:28 PM, George Race wrote:
 I just entered the following, from below, and it worked.
 http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipm
 ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549em
 
 I think the problem may be that it wrapped around and you have extra 
 possibly in the middle.
 George
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] messy workbenches

2012-09-28 Thread Rex


Another serious contender in the messy but productive realm was Bob Pease.
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-blogs/social-mania-blog/4217103/How-messy-is-your-desk-

Quite ironic that Bob died while leaving the memorial for Jim Williams.
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/readerschoice/4368147/Analog-engineering-legend-Bob-Pease-killed-in-car-crash



On 9/28/2012 6:48 PM, Grant Saviers wrote:
George's is a far distant competitor to the bench of the late Jim 
Williams, see 
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/an-analog-life-remembering-jim-williams/


Which was on display at the Computer History Museum and just was 
returned to Linear Tech.


Grant Saviers




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Re: [time-nuts] Best GPSDO

2012-09-28 Thread Said Jackson

Close in phase noise is of utter importance to radar applications that rely on 
Doppler frequency shift. Think trying to detect walking intruders at the border.

Frequency synchronization is important if one tries to link up multiple radar 
units.

Thus good to great Adev and phase noise is needed for those types of 
applications.

Bye
Said



Sent From iPhone

On Sep 28, 2012, at 17:29, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:

 HI
 
 Sort of an open ended question, but there is a fairly simple couple answers:
 
 SInce it's close in phase noise and not far removed, things like PLL's are 
 going to transfer it directly from the reference to the output. It will of 
 course scale by 20 log N where N is the amount you multiplied or divided the 
 reference frequency by. Double the frequency and the phase noise goes up by 6 
 db. 
 
 If you look at jitter, measured in the time domain. It will stay constant as 
 you scale frequency. That's provided it's dominated by phase noise in the 
 frequency range that the 20 log N rule applies. If you strip off noise with a 
 filter (or what ever) jitter will go down. 
 
 If you are building a receiver, phase noise will limit the selectivity of the 
 radio. If you are looking at very tight selectivity, then close in phase 
 noise matters.
 
 Past that, we get out of the fairly simple stuff.
 
 Bob
 
 On Sep 28, 2012, at 4:44 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
 how important is the close in phase noise of a 10MHz reference?  I
 means after all, the oscillator you are measuring, say the local
 oscillator in a receivers or whatever,  is likely not running at 10MHz
 so you have some step where you convert your t-bolt reference to the
 desired freq. using either DDS or a synthesizer and I'd bet that step
 introduces more noise and is the weak link.
 
 I did mean this as a question because I really don't know how to
 compute the effect.  Say my DDS needs 120MHz clock and I PLL  that
 120Mhz clock to my t-bolt and then the DDS as asked to outout 14.5MHz.
 How do phase noise in the 10MHz t-bolt output effect the DDS' 14.5
 output.   Or does it even matter compared to all the noise from other
 sources.  Is there a simple rule of thumb?
 
 OK, maybe we are not really doing any real-measurements, just
 comparing 10MHz standards to each other? But the above assumes the end
 goal is some real-world device who performance we want to determine.
 
 
 
 On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Murray Greenman denw...@orcon.net.nz 
 wrote:
 Ulrich,
 I think this is a bit like discussing one's favourite wine or favourite
 stereo! Especially since many of the participants here will not have the
 capability to compare GPSDO performance reliably.
 
 I have a few GPSDOs, and it's my impression that of them all the Agilent
 Z3815A with MTI260 DOCXO has the best phase noise. Of course these units
 were originally equipped with an E1938A, and the later MTI260 version is not
 as common.
 
 I also have an E1938A, which I operate standalone. It is very impressive,
 excellent AD, in fact my best source now that I've given away my HP 5065A.
 There is some phase noise well away from the carrier, but I've put that down
 to my own construction (switching power supply noise).
 
 Another of my favourites with low phase noise is the Trimble/Nortel
 NTGS50AA, which has a CMAC/Rakon CFPO-DO OCXO. I've had no opportunity to
 measure the AD apart from what Lady Heather reports. This unit is physically
 large but is not power hungry and talks to LH very well.
 
 I also own a Z3801A, a Samsung GCRU-D and a small homebrew GPSDO with a
 CFPO-DO. Sorry, no Timepod for comparisons.
 
 73,
 Murray ZL1BPU
 
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 
 
 
 -- 
 
 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Link to 50's 60's test equipment that I would like to get rid of

2012-09-28 Thread jim s



On 9/28/2012 7:46 PM, Bill Dailey wrote:

There is a comma in equipment messing that link up


http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipm,ent-available/msg149549/#msg149549em


http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/vintage-50%27s-60%27s-test-equipment-available/msg149549/#msg149549em

I was going to shut up because I muffed it too.

However I do want to comment the equipment looks great.  Also George has 
built and flown a homebuilt aircraft, an incredible accomplishment.


The Tek stuff looks great, but I don't have room for any more that large 
right now.  I broke down and bought a Tek 310a off
of craigslist recently and that has been satisfying my need to have a 
nice Tek colored box on the bench with a trace.


thanks
Jim

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Re: [time-nuts] Best GPSDO

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:
 HI

 Sort of an open ended question, but there is a fairly simple couple answers:

 SInce it's close in phase noise and not far removed, things like PLL's are 
 going to transfer it directly from the reference to the output. It will of 
 course scale by 20 log N where N is the amount you multiplied or divided the 
 reference frequency by. Double the frequency and the phase noise goes up by 6 
 db.

So in my example case of scaling the 10Mhz t-bolt to 14.5Mhz  Assuming
a perfect DDS chip the T-Bolt's phase noise would be scaled up by 20
Log(1.45) I'm assuming this works, that I can go from 10MHz to
120Mhz and then to 14.5MHZ and the total effect is the same as going
directly from 10 to 14.5, except for the noise the equipment
introduces as added.

You can guess the real question here: how good does the 10MHz
reference need to be to test real-world receivers?






-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...

2012-09-28 Thread Tom Curlee

I've also had some odd dealings with Rich Bailey.  Some time in the mid 1990's 
I was a contractor at a USN cal lab.  We had sent out a Datum time code 
generator for repair, and when it came back, one of the functions didn't work.  
I called Datum and after describing the problem, the tech support guy 
remembered that there had been a software upgrade, one that, for some unknown 
reason, had removed the function we needed.  He promptly sent me a set of PROMs 
that had the previous software version and all was well.  

Skip ahead 6 or 8 years, and I was at a family function and got to talking to 
my cousins husband.  He vaguely mentioned that he worked for a company that 
'made very accurate clocks'.  For some reason, I blurted out do you work for 
Datum?  He was shocked that I knew who, and what, they were.  We got to 
comparing notes, and, yep, same Rich Bailey that sent me the PROMs.  I agree, 
he really is a nice guy.  Last I heard, he was the sales manager for FEI-Zyfer.

Tom WB6UZZ

--- On Fri, 9/28/12, Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net wrote:

From: Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net
Subject: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Friday, September 28, 2012, 9:20 AM

Yes, Rob, It was Rich Bailey. A good guy! He worked for DATUM in 
Anaheim, CA and as I recall, he lived in Riverside. I noticed that he 
didn't wear a watch and when I jokingly commented about it, 
considering what he did for a living, he told me that he had been so 
aware of precise time for so many years that he got tired of knowing 
precisely what time it was. We had fun together that day.

Burt, K6OQK


From: Rob Kimberley robkimber...@btinternet.com
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
         time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...


Hi Burt,

This sounds familiar! It wasn't a guy called Rich Bailey was it? That's what
he suggested I do, but I got onto Trimble and got one of their Bullet
antennae with the 3 pole filter (Bullet III?).

That worked for us.

Rob

Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 


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Re: [time-nuts] messy workbenches

2012-09-28 Thread DaveH

And Bob Pease trumps all:

http://eetimes.com/electronics-blogs/other/4217103/How-messy-is-your-desk-

There is even a gallery of 24 of Engineering's messiest desks here:

http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-blogs/social-mania-blog/4217145/Photo-gal
lery--Engineering-s-messiest-desks

My primary love is music (analog synthesizers and digital instruments with
recording) and the first messy desk pictured is from Christopher Nelson who
designs the Sweetwater Sound Creation Station computers -- I own one and
love it.

It is ironic that:

   Pease was killed in the crash of his 
   1969 Volkswagen Beetle, on 
   June 18, 2011. He was leaving a 
   gathering in memory of Jim Williams,
   who was another well-known
   analog circuit designer.

From Bob's wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Pease


Dave (who has a messy workbench but I know where everything is!!!)


 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com 
 [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Grant Saviers
 Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 18:48
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] messy workbenches
 
 George's is a far distant competitor to the bench of the late Jim 
 Williams, see 
 http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/an-analog-life-rememberin
 g-jim-williams/
 
 Which was on display at the Computer History Museum and just was 
 returned to Linear Tech.
 
 Grant Saviers
 
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Re: [time-nuts] messy workbenches

2012-09-28 Thread Don Latham

yep, and you always wind up working on the inch of bench just in front
of your belly...

Don

Latham's law of horizontal surfaces states Any bare horizontal surface
immediately becomes covered with junk.

Rex
Another serious contender in the messy but productive realm was Bob
Pease.
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-blogs/social-mania-blog/4217103/How-messy-is-your-desk-

Quite ironic that Bob died while leaving the memorial for Jim Williams.
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/readerschoice/4368147/Analog-engineering-legend-Bob-Pease-killed-in-car-crash

On 9/28/2012 6:48 PM, Grant Saviers wrote:
George's is a far distant competitor to the bench of the late Jim
Williams, see
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/an-analog-life-remembering-jim-williams/

Which was on display at the Computer History Museum and just was
returned to Linear Tech.

Grant Saviers

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--
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com

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Re: [time-nuts] Up And Running