Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
Cable here had about a 10 second latency. HNY - Mike Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc. 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 office 908-902-3831 cell ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
Moon Pie Drop Mobile, Alabama as watched in Birmingham 7 sec delay over the air, 9 sec analog cable, digital cable not checked. In fact it maybe possible the Satellite back feed is in the clear, something to check next year. Now I need a high speed multi channel CCTV setup to Capture this with predictable delays. Sure this will keep me busy till next year :-) Happy new year to all ! ( sorry for the 32 hour delay ) Stanley - Original Message - From: David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2014 12:28 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays From: Hal Murray Are there any events similar to New Years where some specific countdown time is shown on TV? How about some show where they just show a good picture of a reliable clock? Or do we have to wait a whole year to be able to measure things? === Hal, I already mentioned Formula 1 Motor Races (when shown live, obviously). Seem to be quite consistent here. David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
On 1/1/14 10:28 PM, David J Taylor wrote: From: Hal Murray Are there any events similar to New Years where some specific countdown time is shown on TV? Rocket launches, although typically not on live TV any more. More likely streamed (at least that's how I watch them). In the post launch tracking part, there's usually a display showing TAI/UTC along with various parameters (perigee, apogee, etc). I always wait until perigee is 100km before really believing it's successful. But if you can get a feed from China or India, they're pretty big on publicizing their space program, so they might have live news feeds. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 114, Issue 3
Re: Measuring TV delays There's more delay involved in a live feed than most people assume. Let's start with the live feed or remote. Most live feeds with live crowds will use a 9 - 10 sec delay to avoid FCC issues with language. Then it's usually one satellite hop (1/4 sec) to get to the broadcast control center. Frame syncs usually add a 1 or 2 frame delay. Distribution to local stations is usually done with another sat hop. The local station does a pass through (to enable their local ads) and if you get it off-air then you're done. If you get their signal via cable (Comcast) or DTH (DirecTV) there is at least one more sat hop to go. If your set top box (IRD) has delay capability (TIVO), add another 1/2 sec. BD Systems On Thursday, January 2, 2014 6:58 AM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to time-nuts@febo.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to time-nuts-requ...@febo.com You can reach the person managing the list at time-nuts-ow...@febo.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of time-nuts digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: The Best way to Mark the New Year... (Max Robinson) 2. Re: The Best way to Mark the New Year... (Bill Hawkins) 3. Re: The Best way to Mark the New Year... (Glenn Little) 4. HP 4815A vector impedance meter repair service (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) 5. Measuring TV delays (Hal Murray) 6. Re: Measuring TV delays (Bill Hawkins) 7. Re: Measuring TV delays (David J Taylor) 8. Re: Measuring TV delays (Mike Feher) 9. Re: Measuring TV delays (Stanley) -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 11:01:52 -0600 From: Max Robinson m...@maxsmusicplace.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Best way to Mark the New Year... Message-ID: 2014EB765BA74A2588DA371C79ED9CA7@BACKROOM Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original That latency is the price we pay for digital TV. Local analog TV only had a few 10s of microseconds of delay. Network had a few milliseconds latency unless passed through a satellite. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net/ Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net/ Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com/ To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Cc: hmur...@megapathdsl.net Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 5:06 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Best way to Mark the New Year... kyr...@bluefeathertech.com said: For us, watching the rampant lunacy on New Year's At The Needle (referring to the Seattle landmark), and chuckling at how much latency there is between the local TV station's countdown and our clocks. ... Thanks for the heads up on the latency. I checked my watch before heading off to a party tonight. My watch is 4 seconds fast. When midnight rolled around, I watched as the whatever-it-was on the TV counted down. They had a small box with a 2 digit number counting down. It showed 18 seconds to go when my watch showed 00:04. -- Maybe next year we should see how much delay data we can collect. That's in addition or instead of collecting leap second data. The usual ball drops at local midnight so you have the time-zone offset to separate collecting leap-second data and midnight-TV delay data. Do any TV stations carry serious time info? (maybe on part of the retrace info) I didn't check the channel or even notice where the big event was. The party I was at was in Silicon Valley. The TV might have been showing a replay from New York City, or maybe a live local event. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 11:51:04 -0600 From: Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 114, Issue 3
Nice explanation, thanks. I was going to try explain last nite but I am not in the broadcast industry so waiting for an expert to reply. 73, Bob, K1REM -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of BD Systems Inc. Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2014 10:27 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 114, Issue 3 Re: Measuring TV delays There's more delay involved in a live feed than most people assume. Let's start with the live feed or remote. Most live feeds with live crowds will use a 9 - 10 sec delay to avoid FCC issues with language. Then it's usually one satellite hop (1/4 sec) to get to the broadcast control center. Frame syncs usually add a 1 or 2 frame delay. Distribution to local stations is usually done with another sat hop. The local station does a pass through (to enable their local ads) and if you get it off-air then you're done. If you get their signal via cable (Comcast) or DTH (DirecTV) there is at least one more sat hop to go. If your set top box (IRD) has delay capability (TIVO), add another 1/2 sec. BD Systems On Thursday, January 2, 2014 6:58 AM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to time-nuts@febo.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to time-nuts-requ...@febo.com You can reach the person managing the list at time-nuts-ow...@febo.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of time-nuts digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: The Best way to Mark the New Year... (Max Robinson) 2. Re: The Best way to Mark the New Year... (Bill Hawkins) 3. Re: The Best way to Mark the New Year... (Glenn Little) 4. HP 4815A vector impedance meter repair service (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) 5. Measuring TV delays (Hal Murray) 6. Re: Measuring TV delays (Bill Hawkins) 7. Re: Measuring TV delays (David J Taylor) 8. Re: Measuring TV delays (Mike Feher) 9. Re: Measuring TV delays (Stanley) -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 11:01:52 -0600 From: Max Robinson m...@maxsmusicplace.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Best way to Mark the New Year... Message-ID: 2014EB765BA74A2588DA371C79ED9CA7@BACKROOM Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original That latency is the price we pay for digital TV. Local analog TV only had a few 10s of microseconds of delay. Network had a few milliseconds latency unless passed through a satellite. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net/ Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net/ Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com/ To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Cc: hmur...@megapathdsl.net Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 5:06 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Best way to Mark the New Year... kyr...@bluefeathertech.com said: For us, watching the rampant lunacy on New Year's At The Needle (referring to the Seattle landmark), and chuckling at how much latency there is between the local TV station's countdown and our clocks. ... Thanks for the heads up on the latency. I checked my watch before heading off to a party tonight. My watch is 4 seconds fast. When midnight rolled around, I watched as the whatever-it-was on the TV counted down. They had a small box with a 2 digit number counting down. It showed 18 seconds to go when my watch showed 00:04. -- Maybe next year we should see how much delay data we can collect. That's in addition or instead of collecting leap second data. The usual ball drops at local midnight so you have the time-zone offset to separate collecting leap-second data and midnight-TV delay data. Do any TV stations carry serious time info? (maybe on part of the retrace info) I didn't check the channel or even notice where the big event was. The party I was at was in Silicon Valley. The TV might have been showing a replay from New York City, or maybe a live local event. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
Typically, cable receives the signal off air or via fiber. They decode the digital signal to baseband. They reencode the signal to their distribution format. They mux all the channels together. All of this is transmitted as packets. Each channel has a PID assigned in the header of the packet. Your TV or set top box decodes the packets and displays the ones for the channel that you have selected. The decode and encode time at the cable plant is part of this. Most of the latency is that you would not pay for a fast enough processor in your TV or set top box to process all of the packets faster. The more channels in the cable system, the longer the latency. 73 Glenn WB4UIV At 08:31 AM 1/2/2014, you wrote: Cable here had about a 10 second latency. HNY - Mike Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc. 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 office 908-902-3831 cell ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
Reading all of this brings back memories of a project I was involved in back in the early 70's in the Denver area. NBS-Boulder was experimenting with injecting their time standard into the video of the analog signal before it hit the transmitter. We installed a prototype unit that was slaved to Boulder and performed the function of adding the time signal into the video. Part of it also provided station sync slaved to the unit as well. NBS then measured the system prop delay and adjusted the timing accordingly to compensate for any latency before it went to RF. The experiment lasted for a couple of months and then the equipment was removed. Alas... satellites and digital... given buffering, processing and routing delays, you are sort of now on your own in this one-bit world. Greg ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] hp 5060 manual any place?? Or whats the cfld current
Hello to the group and a Happy New Year. Tried to find a copy of the old HP 5060 CS manual on the internet. Doesn't seem to exist. Anyone have a copy please? Or I wanted to actually find out what the c field current range would have actually been, compared to the 5061. The 5061 max current for a 004 is 53 ma and for a standard tube is 79 ma max. Just wondering if the old 5060 tubes were higher than the 79 ma? Thanks in advance Paul WB8TSL/1 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
On 02/01/14 18:10, Gregory Muir wrote: Reading all of this brings back memories of a project I was involved in back in the early 70's in the Denver area. NBS-Boulder was experimenting with injecting their time standard into the video of the analog signal before it hit the transmitter. We installed a prototype unit that was slaved to Boulder and performed the function of adding the time signal into the video. Part of it also provided station sync slaved to the unit as well. NBS then measured the system prop delay and adjusted the timing accordingly to compensate for any latency before it went to RF. The experiment lasted for a couple of months and then the equipment was removed. Alas... satellites and digital... given buffering, processing and routing delays, you are sort of now on your own in this one-bit world. Just to help confusing matters even more, SMPTE-12M time code (which is what you can suspect to be in the TV-signal) and it's Drop-frame algorithm causes a drift of time over the day, as the drop-frame mechanism isn't perfectly aligning up to 3/1001 frames per second over the 86400s day. This requires the production-time to be jammed into alignment regularly, such as every day (off-hour). With the evolving standards, the halting mechanics of drop-frame correction is not changed, but just standardized. The jamming mechanism is also used for leap-seconds and DST change-overs. So, in the US and other 3/1001 frames per second countries (formerly NTSC), encoded time is not going to be useful for precision work. For us in the 25 frames per second world, we only need to jam for leap-seconds and DST change-overs, but that is enough of an upset, but can be more easily predicted with only a few handful of bits extra information. I prefer using MLS measurement for audio delay measurement. If you do it right, you get 20,833 us step resolution, as a result of the 48 kHz sampliung clock. MLS delay measurement is trivial using the Analog Precision test-set. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Gregory Muir engineer...@mt.net wrote: Reading all of this brings back memories of a project I was involved in back in the early 70's in the Denver area. NBS-Boulder was experimenting with injecting their time standard into the video of the analog signal before it hit the transmitter. I bet they encoded it into a single line of the vertical interval. I worked on a similar project at PBS but there it was used that to implement a message broadcast service to send textual messages to selected affiliate stations. It was an outgrowth of the closed-captioning system. PBS didn't want to pay telephone charges to send the same message to all 200 stations in the US when they already had a pipe into every station. And I do remember being intrigued with the creation of the network master clock to ensure that all the video sources were synchronized. I also remember the early digital frame buffers that were there to deal with different frame clock phase from non-PBS-network sources. As I recall, WWVB was the preferred frequency reference but I also remember that they had either a couple of Rb or Cs local references. (It was 1980 and my mind is going. So much to remember.) -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 706 Flightline Drive Spring Branch, TX 78070 br...@lloyd.com +1.916.877.5067 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
IIRC, the reason why NTSC has an almost 30 fps rate is that early vacuum tube TV sets could develop heater-cathode leakage that would put a black hum bar in the picture. Almost 30 allows the bar to move through the picture in a 60 Hz power distribution system. Seems like Europe would have had that problem. No need for it now, but it's like the QWERTY keyboard . . . Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Magnus Danielson Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2014 12:15 PM So, in the US and other 3/1001 frames per second countries (formerly NTSC), encoded time is not going to be useful for precision work. For us in the 25 frames per second world, we only need to jam for leap-seconds and DST change-overs, but that is enough of an upset, but can be more easily predicted with only a few handful of bits extra information. I prefer using MLS measurement for audio delay measurement. If you do it right, you get 20,833 us step resolution, as a result of the 48 kHz sampliung clock. MLS delay measurement is trivial using the Analog Precision test-set. Cheers, Magnus ___ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
Hi Bill both the 405 line and the 625 line PAL and SECAM systems in Europe framed at 25 fpsec prob for the same reason .even though by 625 line inception the sets were transistorised often except for the line output stage. A chat to a BBC engineer at NPL Teddington at a Time Freq Club meeting even before UK switched to digital suggested that timing was uncertain as the program distribution was being done using digital signals. I believe this made interleaving local content easier. Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2014 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays IIRC, the reason why NTSC has an almost 30 fps rate is that early vacuum tube TV sets could develop heater-cathode leakage that would put a black hum bar in the picture. Almost 30 allows the bar to move through the picture in a 60 Hz power distribution system. Seems like Europe would have had that problem. No need for it now, but it's like the QWERTY keyboard . . . Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Magnus Danielson Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2014 12:15 PM So, in the US and other 3/1001 frames per second countries (formerly NTSC), encoded time is not going to be useful for precision work. For us in the 25 frames per second world, we only need to jam for leap-seconds and DST change-overs, but that is enough of an upset, but can be more easily predicted with only a few handful of bits extra information. I prefer using MLS measurement for audio delay measurement. If you do it right, you get 20,833 us step resolution, as a result of the 48 kHz sampliung clock. MLS delay measurement is trivial using the Analog Precision test-set. Cheers, Magnus ___ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
This system of messaging is in place now, at least with ABC.
It is called NAS {Network Alert System}.
It is used to display network time,program scheduling and timings of
each segment with the time for affiliate commercial insertion.
It is also used to alert the affiliate to special reports and network cutins.
I do not remember what line or PID was used.
The decoder box had an output that had the decoded data superimposed
on the network video.
This is was displayed only in Master Control.
There was a discrete output from the box to trigger an audio sounder
to alert the sleepy Master Control operator of the impending cutin.
We used the loudest siren that we could find that ran off of 12 Volts
in a small form factor.
When it went off, you could hear it anywhere in the building.
The time was always retarded from local time and the offset was never
constant due to encode/decode delays.
It would be possible to decode this and display the same data at a
remote receiver, it was not stripped from the broadcast signal.
73
Glenn
WB4UIV
At 12:55 PM 1/2/2014, you wrote:
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Gregory Muir engineer...@mt.net wrote:
Reading all of this brings back memories of a project I was involved in
back in the early 70's in the Denver area. NBS-Boulder was experimenting
with injecting their time standard into the video of the analog signal
before it hit the transmitter.
I bet they encoded it into a single line of the vertical interval. I worked
on a similar project at PBS but there it was used that to implement a
message broadcast service to send textual messages to selected affiliate
stations. It was an outgrowth of the closed-captioning system. PBS didn't
want to pay telephone charges to send the same message to all 200 stations
in the US when they already had a pipe into every station.
And I do remember being intrigued with the creation of the network master
clock to ensure that all the video sources were synchronized. I also
remember the early digital frame buffers that were there to deal with
different frame clock phase from non-PBS-network sources. As I recall, WWVB
was the preferred frequency reference but I also remember that they had
either a couple of Rb or Cs local references. (It was 1980 and my mind is
going. So much to remember.)
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
706 Flightline Drive
Spring Branch, TX 78070
br...@lloyd.com
+1.916.877.5067
___
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
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[time-nuts] Hp 5060A C-field
Paul the C-field current is the same for the 5061A and 5060A. The 5060A C-field pot has LOTS more range than the later 5061A where they installed resistors on each side of the pot to reduce the range. Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
When they broadcast live TV like from a sports vent I wonder if the time code generated by the camera is preserved? But then even if it were the time might have been set manually to match the display on the camera operator's cell phone. Same for scenes with clacks in the background. Do you trust them to be on-time? They might even have ben intentionally set wrong to hide the transmit delay. On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 10:28 PM, David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: From: Hal Murray Are there any events similar to New Years where some specific countdown time is shown on TV? How about some show where they just show a good picture of a reliable clock? Or do we have to wait a whole year to be able to measure things? === Hal, I already mentioned Formula 1 Motor Races (when shown live, obviously). Seem to be quite consistent here. David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hp 5060A C-field
Corby I pulled the a15 board and there are no resistors, just a short across what would have been r19 and 21. So I suspect that there is to much current actually. Further speculation is that when the pot is toward ground more current flows from what I see in the schematic. I may guess that more current equals lower frequency? Regards Paul. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 4:22 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote: Paul the C-field current is the same for the 5061A and 5060A. The 5060A C-field pot has LOTS more range than the later 5061A where they installed resistors on each side of the pot to reduce the range. Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
Here in Orlando, Brighthouse seems to have a delay of some 10's of seconds for program material while the cable box through some magic of the internet seems to be on time. As a result, the last seconds of some recorded programs are lost. Setting the recorder to delay a minute is a problem as this creates a conflict with recordings to follow, One would thing the cable box would have a time adjustment. -- Joe Leikhim Leikhim and Associates Communications Consultants Oviedo, Florida jleik...@leikhim.com 407-982-0446 WWW.LEIKHIM.COM ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
On 1/2/14 11:56 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: When they broadcast live TV like from a sports vent I wonder if the time code generated by the camera is preserved? But then even if it were the time might have been set manually to match the display on the camera operator's cell phone. Depends on how the live feed is derived. If it's an analog signal, there's no time setting involved. If it's B-roll from a GoPro, then yes, it's based on the camera person's watch. Same for scenes with clacks in the background. Do you trust them to be on-time? They might even have ben intentionally set wrong to hide the transmit delay. Unlikely that they'd fool with clocks in the background. Why would they care (except if they're faking the 1969 moon landing or something.. then they've got enough budget for someone to make sure the clocks in the fake mission control read correctly). They DO have people to set the clocks in filming for subsequent editing: it's just part of continuity like making sure cigarettes are the right length, the ice in the glasses has melted the right amount, etc. Not a job I would want. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
On 1/2/14 11:33 AM, Bill Hawkins wrote: IIRC, the reason why NTSC has an almost 30 fps rate is that early vacuum tube TV sets could develop heater-cathode leakage that would put a black hum bar in the picture. Almost 30 allows the bar to move through the picture in a 60 Hz power distribution system. Seems like Europe would have had that problem. And, any ripple in the power supply wouldn't cause the sync to jump around. Noise that's power line related (brush noise from universal AC motors, as used in vacuum cleaners, for instance) would be in the same place on the frame, as well. But if the vertical retrace interval were, say, 59 Hz, and there were 60 or 120 Hz ripple on the power supply, you could see how there would be a periodic offset in the vertical sweep timing and the image would slowly drift up or down and jump every second. Which would be very annoying. When they went to color, they kept the 60 Hz field rate, but moved it a little bit to 59.94 so that it could be generated by a divider chain from a master oscillator at the burst frequency. And even with all this.. it's still Never The Same Color ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
Why didn't they make the color burst an exact multiple of 60 Hz? On 01/02/2014 02:25 PM, Jim Lux wrote: On 1/2/14 11:33 AM, Bill Hawkins wrote: IIRC, the reason why NTSC has an almost 30 fps rate is that early vacuum tube TV sets could develop heater-cathode leakage that would put a black hum bar in the picture. Almost 30 allows the bar to move through the picture in a 60 Hz power distribution system. Seems like Europe would have had that problem. And, any ripple in the power supply wouldn't cause the sync to jump around. Noise that's power line related (brush noise from universal AC motors, as used in vacuum cleaners, for instance) would be in the same place on the frame, as well. But if the vertical retrace interval were, say, 59 Hz, and there were 60 or 120 Hz ripple on the power supply, you could see how there would be a periodic offset in the vertical sweep timing and the image would slowly drift up or down and jump every second. Which would be very annoying. When they went to color, they kept the 60 Hz field rate, but moved it a little bit to 59.94 so that it could be generated by a divider chain from a master oscillator at the burst frequency. And even with all this.. it's still Never The Same Color ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
On 1/2/14 2:33 PM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX wrote: Why didn't they make the color burst an exact multiple of 60 Hz? Round numbers and such http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorburst has a nice description.. The whole thing of backwards compatibility and squeezing the maximum amount of information into the bandwidth was really quite amazing.. For instance the whole thing of encoding the chroma as I/Q, but with different bandwidths for I/Q, and with a weird matrix of RGB to YUV, all to minimize the visible defects from non-ideal signal paths. And you had to be able to do it with off the shelf cheap equipment in the 1940s. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
Not certain as to how NBS achieved the transfer of timing accuracy but it was not believed to be in the VITS interval. If I can recall, there was a special waiver (FCC/NTIA) that was required in order to run the experiment. And it required some esoteric hardware to decode the signal at the other end. Mind you, this project was for local timing information dissemination only and didn't relate to programming aspects. This project was above and beyond the use of the local transmitted television signal sync pulses that NBS was using to synchronize the Fort Collins atomic clocks with the Boulder ones. I do agree, for those of us who tend to dabble in the sub-yoctosecond world, :) something like this is would be a rather coarse approach. Greg On Thu, 02 Jan 2014 19:15:13 +0100, Magnus Danielson wrote: Just to help confusing matters even more, SMPTE-12M time code (which is what you can suspect to be in the TV-signal) and it's Drop-frame algorithm causes a drift of time over the day, as the drop-frame mechanism isn't perfectly aligning up to 3/1001 frames per second over the 86400s day. This requires the production-time to be jammed into alignment regularly, such as every day (off-hour). With the evolving standards, the halting mechanics of drop-frame correction is not changed, but just standardized. The jamming mechanism is also used for leap-seconds and DST change-overs. So, in the US and other 3/1001 frames per second countries (formerly NTSC), encoded time is not going to be useful for precision work. For us in the 25 frames per second world, we only need to jam for leap-seconds and DST change-overs, but that is enough of an upset, but can be more easily predicted with only a few handful of bits extra information. I prefer using MLS measurement for audio delay measurement. If you do it right, you get 20,833 us step resolution, as a result of the 48 kHz sampliung clock. MLS delay measurement is trivial using the Analog Precision test-set. Cheers, Magnus -- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Measuring TV delays
We have noticed the same problem on some channels with Charter here in southern Calif. As noted, there can be a problem with recordings as a result. F. W. Bray Sent from my CP/M phone! On Jan 2, 2014, at 9:48, Joe Leikhim jleik...@leikhim.com wrote: Here in Orlando, Brighthouse seems to have a delay of some 10's of seconds for program material while the cable box through some magic of the internet seems to be on time. As a result, the last seconds of some recorded programs are lost. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Update on my previous note regarding NBS television timing reference experiment
I did a little digging and managed to find a paper on the original television time experiment which was authored by David Howe of NBS, now head of the Time and Frequency Metrology Group at NIST. It can be found at http://www.google.com/url?sa=trct=jq=esrc=sfrm=1source=webcd=2cad=rjaved=0CDYQFjABurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F3092613_Nationwide_Precise_Time_and_Frequency_Distribution_Utilizing_an_Active_Code_within_Network_Television_Broadcasts%2Ffile%2F9fcfd5089a1d534c56.pdfei=Ze_FUsrXJ-LsyQGY0oHYCwusg=AFQjCNGw2wK-8_RYN98R_72AlRLcm2BAUAbvm=bv.58187178,d.aWc (Google cached - whew!). I stand corrected in my assumption that the timing signal was not related to the VITS interval in the video signal. They actually were inserting the signal on line 1. At the time Mr. Howe was involved in the development of the hardware that was deployed in the field for the experiment. He stated that the received code provided unambiguous time to 12 hours, with a resolution of 1 nanosecond and long-term stability of 10 nanoseconds for 10-second averaging. It's rather odd as to why I can't remember the sordid details off the top of my head regarding a project that took place 42 years ago Greg ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Update on my previous note regarding NBS television timing reference experiment
I had one of the remote units for this system many years ago. I scrapped the unit and used the cute little 5 Sony Trinitron TV for many years... I think I still have all of the PCB's that did the line extraction, and phase locking... -Chuck Harris Gregory Muir wrote: I did a little digging and managed to find a paper on the original television time experiment which was authored by David Howe of NBS, now head of the Time and Frequency Metrology Group at NIST. It can be found at http://www.google.com/url?sa=trct=jq=esrc=sfrm=1source=webcd=2cad=rjaved=0CDYQFjABurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F3092613_Nationwide_Precise_Time_and_Frequency_Distribution_Utilizing_an_Active_Code_within_Network_Television_Broadcasts%2Ffile%2F9fcfd5089a1d534c56.pdfei=Ze_FUsrXJ-LsyQGY0oHYCwusg=AFQjCNGw2wK-8_RYN98R_72AlRLcm2BAUAbvm=bv.58187178,d.aWc (Google cached - whew!). I stand corrected in my assumption that the timing signal was not related to the VITS interval in the video signal. They actually were inserting the signal on line 1. At the time Mr. Howe was involved in the development of the hardware that was deployed in the field for the experiment. He stated that the received code provided unambiguous time to 12 hours, with a resolution of 1 nanosecond and long-term stability of 10 nanoseconds for 10-second averaging. It's rather odd as to why I can't remember the sordid details off the top of my head regarding a project that took place 42 years ago Greg ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Update on my previous note regarding NBS television timing reference experiment
Here in the UK we had a version of this for nearly 40 years. It was called Ceefax or TeleText. Chunky graphics with the time, weather and lots of other information. it was also used for closed captioning. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext It was the best generally available time source for years. Robert G8RPI. From: Gregory Muir engineer...@mt.net To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, 2 January 2014, 23:31 Subject: [time-nuts] Update on my previous note regarding NBS television timing reference experiment I did a little digging and managed to find a paper on the original television time experiment which was authored by David Howe of NBS, now head of the Time and Frequency Metrology Group at NIST. It can be found at http://www.google.com/url?sa=trct=jq=esrc=sfrm=1source=webcd=2cad=rjaved=0CDYQFjABurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F3092613_Nationwide_Precise_Time_and_Frequency_Distribution_Utilizing_an_Active_Code_within_Network_Television_Broadcasts%2Ffile%2F9fcfd5089a1d534c56.pdfei=Ze_FUsrXJ-LsyQGY0oHYCwusg=AFQjCNGw2wK-8_RYN98R_72AlRLcm2BAUAbvm=bv.58187178,d.aWc(Google cached - whew!). I stand corrected in my assumption that the timing signal was not related to the VITS interval in the video signal. They actually were inserting the signal on line 1. At the time Mr. Howe was involved in the development of the hardware that was deployed in the field for the experiment. He stated that the received code provided unambiguous time to 12 hours, with a resolution of 1 nanosecond and long-term stability of 10 nanoseconds for 10-second averaging. It's rather odd as to why I can't remember the sordid details off the top of my head regarding a project that took place 42 years ago Greg ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
