Re: [time-nuts] Practical Survey-In Accuracy?
On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Bob Stewart wrote: > Hi Attila, > > > Is wood, nails, and asphalt shingle really that big of a problem at these > frequencies? The antenna is within 2 ft of the highest point of the roof. Depends on what you call a "problem". If you are getting a usable signal then some people would not call it a problem. When I moved my GPS antenna from user the roof to a pole mounted above the roof the signal improved greatly. The most notable improvements was the signal to noise ration of satellites near the horizon. > > Bob > > > > > From: Attila Kinali > To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency > measurement > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 8:15 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Practical Survey-In Accuracy? > > > On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:38:42 -0700 > > > > Bob Stewart wrote: > >> Given that my antenna is just a puck at the peak of the attic (never got >> around to adding the DIY choke-ring) > > A choke ring will not help you much in the attic. You already have lots > of reflecting and refracting surfaces/volumes above the antenna. > Unless you get to the top of your roof, i wouldn't bother adding a choke ring. > > > Attila Kinali > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
FTS had a patent on microcontroller steered cesium, which could naturally have limited the spreading time of that technology. Oscilloquartz at the time where more focused on the telecommunication market and meeting the ITU-T G.811 PRC quality requirement, keeping within +/. 1E-11 in frequency, and that is achievable with the analog design, so no rush changing it. FTS and HP where more into time-keeping, so therefore improving the design made more market sense for them. Anyway, that's about how I have perceived the market at the time. Cheers, Magnus On 08/28/2014 11:47 PM, Chris wrote: On 08/28/14 19:53, Javier Herrero wrote: Hello, Then it is a quite different beast to the EUDICS 3120, that they also call OSA-3120... I note now that yours is a 3210, not 3120 :) Regards, Javier The 3210 looks like a much earlier design, prior to the inclusion of microprocessor control. Date codes look mid eighties, by which time companies like FTS did have microprocessor control. Maybe their later design products ran in parallel because of gov or esa contracts. In theory, the more straightforward hardware design should make it easier to keep running, tube life permitting, assuming the info can be found. Thanks for sending it anyway - it all adds to the sum of knowledge... Regards, Chris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Practical Survey-In Accuracy?
Hi Simple answer - yes. My observation over the years is that your typical roof absorbs quite a bit of RF starting way below GPS frequencies. My *guess* is that shingles are a bit lossy. Shingles + moisture more so. Shingles + dirt + moisture even worse. I also believe that plywood suffers the same way. Also consider that you have things like flashing, ridge vents, and gutters involved. Somewhere below 2 MHz or so things begin to get less crazy. I’ve spent a lot of time putting antennas up in a lot of attics and then moving them outdoors. Bob On Aug 28, 2014, at 9:30 AM, Bob Stewart wrote: > Hi Attila, > > > Is wood, nails, and asphalt shingle really that big of a problem at these > frequencies? The antenna is within 2 ft of the highest point of the roof. > > Bob > > > > > From: Attila Kinali > To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency > measurement > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 8:15 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Practical Survey-In Accuracy? > > > On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:38:42 -0700 > > > > Bob Stewart wrote: > >> Given that my antenna is just a puck at the peak of the attic (never got >> around to adding the DIY choke-ring) > > A choke ring will not help you much in the attic. You already have lots > of reflecting and refracting surfaces/volumes above the antenna. > Unless you get to the top of your roof, i wouldn't bother adding a choke ring. > > > Attila Kinali > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
On 08/28/14 19:53, Javier Herrero wrote: Hello, Then it is a quite different beast to the EUDICS 3120, that they also call OSA-3120... I note now that yours is a 3210, not 3120 :) Regards, Javier The 3210 looks like a much earlier design, prior to the inclusion of microprocessor control. Date codes look mid eighties, by which time companies like FTS did have microprocessor control. Maybe their later design products ran in parallel because of gov or esa contracts. In theory, the more straightforward hardware design should make it easier to keep running, tube life permitting, assuming the info can be found. Thanks for sending it anyway - it all adds to the sum of knowledge... Regards, Chris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna in snowy environment
On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 20:59:28 +0200 Magnus Danielson wrote: > > But the pipe is not such a good idea. All signals from high elevation > > angle will have a long path trough the pipe, changing their phase > > ever so slightly. How much, depends on the pipe, it's thiknes and material. > > Whether it actually matters or not, depends on your requirements. > > You naturally use calibration files for your antenna to compensate for > pseduo-range errors due to azimuth and elevation if you care to that level. That raises the question how to get those calibration files. Most of us do not have an anechoic chamber to characterize antennas, much less the other equipment needed for this. Attila Kinali -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. -- Sophie Scholl ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
Hello, Then it is a quite different beast to the EUDICS 3120, that they also call OSA-3120... I note now that yours is a 3210, not 3120 :) Regards, Javier P.S. no, there is no known cure to the time nuts things interest. It becomes chronic, and only gets worse ;) On 28/08/2014 16:33, Chris wrote: On 08/28/14 05:03, Javier Herrero wrote: Hello, Here is the manual I've. I have also some other documentations, and some Oscilloquartz software for the OSA-5585, but I don't know if they are very useful. Regards, Javier Hi Javier, Thanks for that and for the other replies. The 3210 looks like quite an early design, with no sign of microprocessors at all. There's a 8 slot card cage with a load of discrete analog circuitry, 741 op amps etc and a couple of boards full of 14 / 16 pin ssi cmos / ttl devices, which I guess would be the synthesiser logic and perhaps a state machine style startup sequencer. Apart from that, the rest is power supply related and what looks like an alarm board with optoisolator discete outputs to a 25 way D connector. The step recovery diode (?) multiplier into the microwave cavity is a really neat gold plated assembly with what looks like a 50r termination (setup tap for spectrum analyser ?) and an adjustment trimmer, but am not touching that or the many trimpots on the boards or any adjustments until I have more info. The tube is from FTS, part number / model 7101. It seems strange that the 2nd harmonic, meter #9, is zero, since even with a tube approaching eol, one would expect at least some indication, which is why I think there may be an electronic fault. Perhaps the hv power supply module feeding the electron multiplier. Will try to measure that, but the area around the tube is really heavily rivetted and screwed down in all directions. Looks like a lot of the left hand side of the case will need to be disassembled just to get at the tube connections. It also had the battery backup option, with 4 sets of 3 x cyclon type cells, but with a date code of 1984, are seriously dead and have been removed. This time nuts things seems to be a growing interest and wonder if there is a cure ? :-). Recently bought a 1970's era Tracor 304D rubidium standard. Again, no lock, but a very well engineered and screwed together piece of kit and should be fixable. Collection now includes the Z3816, from Ebay US around 7 years ago, a Z3815 currently being repackaged, an HP103 with open circuit oven heater elements and the 3210... Regards, Chris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna in snowy environment
Attila, On 08/28/2014 08:15 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 12:00:19 -0400 Dan Kemppainen wrote: However, that raises a good questions, in terms of cones and shedding snow. I wonder how a straight slender vertical pipe with capped end would work. Say 6 feet long. Let the snow build on the top. You might loose a few degrees of sky view above it, but how detrimental would that be? Unless you live directly under the path of one of the orbits, satellites will not pass directly above you, so there would be little los. But the pipe is not such a good idea. All signals from high elevation angle will have a long path trough the pipe, changing their phase ever so slightly. How much, depends on the pipe, it's thiknes and material. Whether it actually matters or not, depends on your requirements. You naturally use calibration files for your antenna to compensate for pseduo-range errors due to azimuth and elevation if you care to that level. It's just one of several corrections you do if you care about precision. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna in snowy environment
On 8/28/2014 2:15 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 12:00:19 -0400 Dan Kemppainen wrote: However, that raises a good questions, in terms of cones and shedding snow. I wonder how a straight slender vertical pipe with capped end ... But the pipe is not such a good idea. All signals from high elevation angle will have a long path trough the pipe, changing their phase ever so slightly. Use a PVC pipe. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna in snowy environment (was: LEA-6T, Software.)
On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 12:00:19 -0400 Dan Kemppainen wrote: > However, that raises a good questions, in terms of cones and shedding > snow. I wonder how a straight slender vertical pipe with capped end > would work. Say 6 feet long. Let the snow build on the top. You might > loose a few degrees of sky view above it, but how detrimental would that > be? Unless you live directly under the path of one of the orbits, satellites will not pass directly above you, so there would be little los. But the pipe is not such a good idea. All signals from high elevation angle will have a long path trough the pipe, changing their phase ever so slightly. How much, depends on the pipe, it's thiknes and material. Whether it actually matters or not, depends on your requirements. Attila Kinali -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. -- Sophie Scholl ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna in snowy environment (was: LEA-6T, Software.)
Björn, Can you provide links to some examples? A picture or two would be great! Attila, Almost all the snow we get accumulates. However it does settle, even then by mid February it's not unusual to see 4 or 5 feet on the ground... However, that raises a good questions, in terms of cones and shedding snow. I wonder how a straight slender vertical pipe with capped end would work. Say 6 feet long. Let the snow build on the top. You might loose a few degrees of sky view above it, but how detrimental would that be? Lots to think about before winter! :) Dan ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
If you have tube-life and not other issues, it's about the same. Also works for rubidiums, as the loop aspect here is essentially the same. There can be *other* issues. For the 5060A for instance, you might need to also adjust the crystal filter of the OCXO, as that too drifts out of range, so you get no signal out. What I write is not a fix-it-all but rather addresses that one issue. Cheers, Magnus On 08/28/2014 06:35 PM, Bob Bownes wrote: Is there a similar 'bring it back to life' procedure for the 5061A? On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Magnus Danielson < mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote: Chris, Do you have a GPS clock? First turn the operational mode setting from off to second step (ocxo + ion pump) and let it stay there for a day or so. Then, as the oven have stabilized, switch it over to third step, the open loop mode, and tune the OCXO up against a GPS reference so that it is very near 5 MHz. You use the calibration whole on the front of the clock for that. Then, you turn the operation mode switch to the fourth and last step, the closed loop step, and see if it locks up. Let it just sit there and lock up, as it takes some time. It's quite common that OCXOs have drifted outside the capture range of the analogue loop, so loosing lock and not being able to attain it again is a typical response. Cheers, Magnus On 08/28/2014 04:33 PM, Chris wrote: On 08/28/14 05:03, Javier Herrero wrote: Hello, Here is the manual I've. I have also some other documentations, and some Oscilloquartz software for the OSA-5585, but I don't know if they are very useful. Regards, Javier Hi Javier, Thanks for that and for the other replies. The 3210 looks like quite an early design, with no sign of microprocessors at all. There's a 8 slot card cage with a load of discrete analog circuitry, 741 op amps etc and a couple of boards full of 14 / 16 pin ssi cmos / ttl devices, which I guess would be the synthesiser logic and perhaps a state machine style startup sequencer. Apart from that, the rest is power supply related and what looks like an alarm board with optoisolator discete outputs to a 25 way D connector. The step recovery diode (?) multiplier into the microwave cavity is a really neat gold plated assembly with what looks like a 50r termination (setup tap for spectrum analyser ?) and an adjustment trimmer, but am not touching that or the many trimpots on the boards or any adjustments until I have more info. The tube is from FTS, part number / model 7101. It seems strange that the 2nd harmonic, meter #9, is zero, since even with a tube approaching eol, one would expect at least some indication, which is why I think there may be an electronic fault. Perhaps the hv power supply module feeding the electron multiplier. Will try to measure that, but the area around the tube is really heavily rivetted and screwed down in all directions. Looks like a lot of the left hand side of the case will need to be disassembled just to get at the tube connections. It also had the battery backup option, with 4 sets of 3 x cyclon type cells, but with a date code of 1984, are seriously dead and have been removed. This time nuts things seems to be a growing interest and wonder if there is a cure ? :-). Recently bought a 1970's era Tracor 304D rubidium standard. Again, no lock, but a very well engineered and screwed together piece of kit and should be fixable. Collection now includes the Z3816, from Ebay US around 7 years ago, a Z3815 currently being repackaged, an HP103 with open circuit oven heater elements and the 3210... Regards, Chris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
Is there a similar 'bring it back to life' procedure for the 5061A? On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Magnus Danielson < mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote: > Chris, > > Do you have a GPS clock? > > First turn the operational mode setting from off to second step (ocxo + > ion pump) and let it stay there for a day or so. > > Then, as the oven have stabilized, switch it over to third step, the open > loop mode, and tune the OCXO up against a GPS reference so that it is very > near 5 MHz. You use the calibration whole on the front of the clock for > that. > > Then, you turn the operation mode switch to the fourth and last step, the > closed loop step, and see if it locks up. Let it just sit there and lock > up, as it takes some time. > > It's quite common that OCXOs have drifted outside the capture range of the > analogue loop, so loosing lock and not being able to attain it again is a > typical response. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > > On 08/28/2014 04:33 PM, Chris wrote: > >> On 08/28/14 05:03, Javier Herrero wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Here is the manual I've. I have also some other documentations, and some >>> Oscilloquartz software for the OSA-5585, but I don't know if they are >>> very useful. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Javier >>> >>> >> Hi Javier, >> >> Thanks for that and for the other replies. The 3210 looks like quite an >> early design, with no sign of microprocessors at all. There's a 8 slot >> card cage with a load of discrete analog circuitry, 741 op amps etc and >> a couple of boards full of 14 / 16 pin ssi cmos / ttl devices, which I >> guess would be the synthesiser logic and perhaps a state machine style >> startup sequencer. Apart from that, the rest is power supply related and >> what looks like an alarm board with optoisolator discete outputs to a 25 >> way D connector. The step recovery diode (?) multiplier into the >> microwave cavity is a really neat gold plated assembly with what looks >> like a 50r termination (setup tap for spectrum analyser ?) and an >> adjustment trimmer, but am not touching that or the many trimpots on the >> boards or any adjustments until I have more info. The tube is from FTS, >> part number / model 7101. >> >> It seems strange that the 2nd harmonic, meter #9, is zero, since even >> with a tube approaching eol, one would expect at least some indication, >> which is why I think there may be an electronic fault. Perhaps the hv >> power supply module feeding the electron multiplier. Will try to measure >> that, but the area around the tube is really heavily rivetted and >> screwed down in all directions. Looks like a lot of the left hand side >> of the case will need to be disassembled just to get at the tube >> connections. It also had the battery backup option, with 4 sets of 3 x >> cyclon type cells, but with a date code of 1984, are seriously dead and >> have been removed. >> >> This time nuts things seems to be a growing interest and wonder if there >> is a cure ? :-). Recently bought a 1970's era Tracor 304D rubidium >> standard. Again, no lock, but a very well engineered and screwed >> together piece of kit and should be fixable. Collection now includes the >> Z3816, from Ebay US around 7 years ago, a Z3815 currently being >> repackaged, an HP103 with open circuit oven heater elements and the >> 3210... >> >> Regards, >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
On 08/28/14 14:39, bownes wrote: Careful Chris, it sounds like you are developing the symptoms of the Vintage strain of the time nuts infection. Next thing you know, you will be looking at tall clocks. Bob, who is debating the wisdom of non invasively synchronizing the family heirloom tall clock to the new cesium clock... It all started with the need for an accurate standard for the home lab. I had one of the Racal double oven standards for years, but a pot core transformer on the inner oven control board went open circuit on one winding and was unable to fix it at the time. Then bought the Z3816 on Ebay, which was working fine for years until the oscillator EFC became unstable and of course, then one thing leads to another. As for clocks, have a collection of synchronous motor clocks awaiting restoration and a couple of pendulum clocks - A gents pulsynetic and an IBM clock from the 1940's, quarter sawn oak case and all. I do embedded systems here and the IBM master clock is appropriate - an example of how IBM didn't only build computers. It's a work of art, with thick brass plates for the mechanism and much of it gold plated to reduce corrosion. The self winding mechanism had a broken bracket on the solenoid armature, metal fatigue over the years I guess. That's been completely stripped, cleaned, sparingly relubed and now working as it should. So, not really an obsession, but definately a growing interest area :-)... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. . ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
Chris, Do you have a GPS clock? First turn the operational mode setting from off to second step (ocxo + ion pump) and let it stay there for a day or so. Then, as the oven have stabilized, switch it over to third step, the open loop mode, and tune the OCXO up against a GPS reference so that it is very near 5 MHz. You use the calibration whole on the front of the clock for that. Then, you turn the operation mode switch to the fourth and last step, the closed loop step, and see if it locks up. Let it just sit there and lock up, as it takes some time. It's quite common that OCXOs have drifted outside the capture range of the analogue loop, so loosing lock and not being able to attain it again is a typical response. Cheers, Magnus On 08/28/2014 04:33 PM, Chris wrote: On 08/28/14 05:03, Javier Herrero wrote: Hello, Here is the manual I've. I have also some other documentations, and some Oscilloquartz software for the OSA-5585, but I don't know if they are very useful. Regards, Javier Hi Javier, Thanks for that and for the other replies. The 3210 looks like quite an early design, with no sign of microprocessors at all. There's a 8 slot card cage with a load of discrete analog circuitry, 741 op amps etc and a couple of boards full of 14 / 16 pin ssi cmos / ttl devices, which I guess would be the synthesiser logic and perhaps a state machine style startup sequencer. Apart from that, the rest is power supply related and what looks like an alarm board with optoisolator discete outputs to a 25 way D connector. The step recovery diode (?) multiplier into the microwave cavity is a really neat gold plated assembly with what looks like a 50r termination (setup tap for spectrum analyser ?) and an adjustment trimmer, but am not touching that or the many trimpots on the boards or any adjustments until I have more info. The tube is from FTS, part number / model 7101. It seems strange that the 2nd harmonic, meter #9, is zero, since even with a tube approaching eol, one would expect at least some indication, which is why I think there may be an electronic fault. Perhaps the hv power supply module feeding the electron multiplier. Will try to measure that, but the area around the tube is really heavily rivetted and screwed down in all directions. Looks like a lot of the left hand side of the case will need to be disassembled just to get at the tube connections. It also had the battery backup option, with 4 sets of 3 x cyclon type cells, but with a date code of 1984, are seriously dead and have been removed. This time nuts things seems to be a growing interest and wonder if there is a cure ? :-). Recently bought a 1970's era Tracor 304D rubidium standard. Again, no lock, but a very well engineered and screwed together piece of kit and should be fixable. Collection now includes the Z3816, from Ebay US around 7 years ago, a Z3815 currently being repackaged, an HP103 with open circuit oven heater elements and the 3210... Regards, Chris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
I have the same disease. I have the clock, but the wife thinks that is insane. I don't get her concern at all??? Especially when she says "NO!". Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:39 AM, bownes wrote: > Careful Chris, it sounds like you are developing the symptoms of the > Vintage strain of the time nuts infection. Next thing you know, you will be > looking at tall clocks. > > Bob, who is debating the wisdom of non invasively synchronizing the family > heirloom tall clock to the new cesium clock... > > > On Aug 28, 2014, at 10:33, Chris > wrote: > > > >> On 08/28/14 05:03, Javier Herrero wrote: > >> Hello, > >> > >> Here is the manual I've. I have also some other documentations, and some > >> Oscilloquartz software for the OSA-5585, but I don't know if they are > >> very useful. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Javier > > > > Hi Javier, > > > > Thanks for that and for the other replies. The 3210 looks like quite an > early design, with no sign of microprocessors at all. There's a 8 slot card > cage with a load of discrete analog circuitry, 741 op amps etc and a couple > of boards full of 14 / 16 pin ssi cmos / ttl devices, which I guess would > be the synthesiser logic and perhaps a state machine style startup > sequencer. Apart from that, the rest is power supply related and what looks > like an alarm board with optoisolator discete outputs to a 25 way D > connector. The step recovery diode (?) multiplier into the microwave cavity > is a really neat gold plated assembly with what looks like a 50r > termination (setup tap for spectrum analyser ?) and an adjustment trimmer, > but am not touching that or the many trimpots on the boards or any > adjustments until I have more info. The tube is from FTS, part number / > model 7101. > > > > It seems strange that the 2nd harmonic, meter #9, is zero, since even > with a tube approaching eol, one would expect at least some indication, > which is why I think there may be an electronic fault. Perhaps the hv power > supply module feeding the electron multiplier. Will try to measure that, > but the area around the tube is really heavily rivetted and screwed down in > all directions. Looks like a lot of the left hand side of the case will > need to be disassembled just to get at the tube connections. It also had > the battery backup option, with 4 sets of 3 x cyclon type cells, but with a > date code of 1984, are seriously dead and have been removed. > > > > This time nuts things seems to be a growing interest and wonder if there > is a cure ? :-). Recently bought a 1970's era Tracor 304D rubidium > standard. Again, no lock, but a very well engineered and screwed together > piece of kit and should be fixable. Collection now includes the Z3816, from > Ebay US around 7 years ago, a Z3815 currently being repackaged, an HP103 > with open circuit oven heater elements and the 3210... > > > > Regards, > > > > Chris > > > > > > > >>> ___ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>> and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
Careful Chris, it sounds like you are developing the symptoms of the Vintage strain of the time nuts infection. Next thing you know, you will be looking at tall clocks. Bob, who is debating the wisdom of non invasively synchronizing the family heirloom tall clock to the new cesium clock... > On Aug 28, 2014, at 10:33, Chris wrote: > >> On 08/28/14 05:03, Javier Herrero wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Here is the manual I've. I have also some other documentations, and some >> Oscilloquartz software for the OSA-5585, but I don't know if they are >> very useful. >> >> Regards, >> >> Javier > > Hi Javier, > > Thanks for that and for the other replies. The 3210 looks like quite an early > design, with no sign of microprocessors at all. There's a 8 slot card cage > with a load of discrete analog circuitry, 741 op amps etc and a couple of > boards full of 14 / 16 pin ssi cmos / ttl devices, which I guess would be the > synthesiser logic and perhaps a state machine style startup sequencer. Apart > from that, the rest is power supply related and what looks like an alarm > board with optoisolator discete outputs to a 25 way D connector. The step > recovery diode (?) multiplier into the microwave cavity is a really neat gold > plated assembly with what looks like a 50r termination (setup tap for > spectrum analyser ?) and an adjustment trimmer, but am not touching that or > the many trimpots on the boards or any adjustments until I have more info. > The tube is from FTS, part number / model 7101. > > It seems strange that the 2nd harmonic, meter #9, is zero, since even with a > tube approaching eol, one would expect at least some indication, which is why > I think there may be an electronic fault. Perhaps the hv power supply module > feeding the electron multiplier. Will try to measure that, but the area > around the tube is really heavily rivetted and screwed down in all > directions. Looks like a lot of the left hand side of the case will need to > be disassembled just to get at the tube connections. It also had the battery > backup option, with 4 sets of 3 x cyclon type cells, but with a date code of > 1984, are seriously dead and have been removed. > > This time nuts things seems to be a growing interest and wonder if there is a > cure ? :-). Recently bought a 1970's era Tracor 304D rubidium standard. > Again, no lock, but a very well engineered and screwed together piece of kit > and should be fixable. Collection now includes the Z3816, from Ebay US around > 7 years ago, a Z3815 currently being repackaged, an HP103 with open circuit > oven heater elements and the 3210... > > Regards, > > Chris > > > >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
On 08/28/14 05:03, Javier Herrero wrote: Hello, Here is the manual I've. I have also some other documentations, and some Oscilloquartz software for the OSA-5585, but I don't know if they are very useful. Regards, Javier Hi Javier, Thanks for that and for the other replies. The 3210 looks like quite an early design, with no sign of microprocessors at all. There's a 8 slot card cage with a load of discrete analog circuitry, 741 op amps etc and a couple of boards full of 14 / 16 pin ssi cmos / ttl devices, which I guess would be the synthesiser logic and perhaps a state machine style startup sequencer. Apart from that, the rest is power supply related and what looks like an alarm board with optoisolator discete outputs to a 25 way D connector. The step recovery diode (?) multiplier into the microwave cavity is a really neat gold plated assembly with what looks like a 50r termination (setup tap for spectrum analyser ?) and an adjustment trimmer, but am not touching that or the many trimpots on the boards or any adjustments until I have more info. The tube is from FTS, part number / model 7101. It seems strange that the 2nd harmonic, meter #9, is zero, since even with a tube approaching eol, one would expect at least some indication, which is why I think there may be an electronic fault. Perhaps the hv power supply module feeding the electron multiplier. Will try to measure that, but the area around the tube is really heavily rivetted and screwed down in all directions. Looks like a lot of the left hand side of the case will need to be disassembled just to get at the tube connections. It also had the battery backup option, with 4 sets of 3 x cyclon type cells, but with a date code of 1984, are seriously dead and have been removed. This time nuts things seems to be a growing interest and wonder if there is a cure ? :-). Recently bought a 1970's era Tracor 304D rubidium standard. Again, no lock, but a very well engineered and screwed together piece of kit and should be fixable. Collection now includes the Z3816, from Ebay US around 7 years ago, a Z3815 currently being repackaged, an HP103 with open circuit oven heater elements and the 3210... Regards, Chris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Practical Survey-In Accuracy?
On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 09:21:51 -0500 "Dave M" wrote: > How far above the metal roof should I mount the antenna so reflections will > be minimized, at least to the point of diminishing returns? I've been told, that >2m is ok. Sorry, i don't have any hard numbers. > The antenna will have a pretty good view of the sky from that location. Any > other issues that I should be aware of when dealing with a metal roof? Heating of the garage due to sun? Attila Kinali -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. -- Sophie Scholl ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Practical Survey-In Accuracy?
Attila Kinali wrote: On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 06:30:14 -0700 Bob Stewart wrote: Is wood, nails, and asphalt shingle really that big of a problem at these frequencies? The antenna is within 2 ft of the highest point of the roof. Consider this: A lot of people complain about the reflections caused by trees. But what is a tree? It's mostly air and a few leaves, with a branch here and there. Also: 60cm is less than 2λ. ie the roof is in the near field of the antenna, where everything causes a change of the antenna behaviour (resonance frequency, radiation pattern, phase centre etc) Depending on what you do with the GPS signal, you might or might not care about that. If you are a nutty time-nut and want to wring out ever last bit of jitter out of your PPS, then you will care about the effect of the roof. Attila Kinali In light of these posts about antennae and reflections, etc., I have a similar question. I'm planning to move my workbench out of my attached garage into a separate garage building. The new garage is about 24' x 36', and has a metal roof. My plan is to mount my GPS antenna atop a metal pipe mounted at the peak at the end of the gable roof. How far above the metal roof should I mount the antenna so reflections will be minimized, at least to the point of diminishing returns? The antenna will have a pretty good view of the sky from that location. Any other issues that I should be aware of when dealing with a metal roof? Thanks, Dave M ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Practical Survey-In Accuracy?
On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 06:30:14 -0700 Bob Stewart wrote: > Is wood, nails, and asphalt shingle really that big of a problem at these > frequencies? The antenna is within 2 ft of the highest point of the roof. Consider this: A lot of people complain about the reflections caused by trees. But what is a tree? It's mostly air and a few leaves, with a branch here and there. Also: 60cm is less than 2λ. ie the roof is in the near field of the antenna, where everything causes a change of the antenna behaviour (resonance frequency, radiation pattern, phase centre etc) Depending on what you do with the GPS signal, you might or might not care about that. If you are a nutty time-nut and want to wring out ever last bit of jitter out of your PPS, then you will care about the effect of the roof. Attila Kinali -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. -- Sophie Scholl ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna in snowy environment (was: LEA-6T Software.)
Note that the high accurcy geodetic snow cones for chokering antenns have moved towards thin spherical designs. -- Björn Originalmeddelande Från: Chris Albertson Datum:2014-08-28 15:17 (GMT+01:00) Till: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Rubrik: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna in snowy environment (was: LEA-6T Software.) The same shape that keeps bird off the antenna also keeps birds off. It is worth getting the tall cone shape no matter where you live. On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: > On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:48:51 -0400 > Dan Kemppainen wrote: > >> Also, I have a low cost antenna coming. It's one of the Synergy systems >> puck type amplified antennas. I remember some time back a bit of chatter >> about improving GPS antennas for timing, by providing some sort of guard >> ring or choke to prevent low angle reception. Are there any good links >> anyone could provide on what may be worth building or playing with. Keep >> in mind, I live in snow country (~300 inches/year) so a something that >> gathers a lot of snow could be undesirable! :) > > How much snow you get is mostly irrelevant. It's more important > how much accumulates ;-) > > A cone hat over your antenna should solve quite a bit of the issue. > The problem is, that you need quite a steep cone or you need to heat > it constantly above 0°C, as snow tends to stick to everything, even > smooth walls. > Maybe also worth a try would be to grease the cone. But i've only heard > of that and never seen it in action. So i cannot tell whether that helps > in any way. > > Attila Kinali > > > > -- > I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in > the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous > even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being > superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. > -- Sophie Scholl > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Practical Survey-In Accuracy?
Hi Attila, Is wood, nails, and asphalt shingle really that big of a problem at these frequencies? The antenna is within 2 ft of the highest point of the roof. Bob From: Attila Kinali To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Practical Survey-In Accuracy? On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:38:42 -0700 Bob Stewart wrote: > Given that my antenna is just a puck at the peak of the attic (never got >around to adding the DIY choke-ring) A choke ring will not help you much in the attic. You already have lots of reflecting and refracting surfaces/volumes above the antenna. Unless you get to the top of your roof, i wouldn't bother adding a choke ring. Attila Kinali ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna in snowy environment (was: LEA-6T Software.)
The same shape that keeps bird off the antenna also keeps birds off. It is worth getting the tall cone shape no matter where you live. On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: > On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:48:51 -0400 > Dan Kemppainen wrote: > >> Also, I have a low cost antenna coming. It's one of the Synergy systems >> puck type amplified antennas. I remember some time back a bit of chatter >> about improving GPS antennas for timing, by providing some sort of guard >> ring or choke to prevent low angle reception. Are there any good links >> anyone could provide on what may be worth building or playing with. Keep >> in mind, I live in snow country (~300 inches/year) so a something that >> gathers a lot of snow could be undesirable! :) > > How much snow you get is mostly irrelevant. It's more important > how much accumulates ;-) > > A cone hat over your antenna should solve quite a bit of the issue. > The problem is, that you need quite a steep cone or you need to heat > it constantly above 0°C, as snow tends to stick to everything, even > smooth walls. > Maybe also worth a try would be to grease the cone. But i've only heard > of that and never seen it in action. So i cannot tell whether that helps > in any way. > > Attila Kinali > > > > -- > I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in > the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous > even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being > superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. > -- Sophie Scholl > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Practical Survey-In Accuracy?
On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:38:42 -0700 Bob Stewart wrote: > Given that my antenna is just a puck at the peak of the attic (never got > around to adding the DIY choke-ring) A choke ring will not help you much in the attic. You already have lots of reflecting and refracting surfaces/volumes above the antenna. Unless you get to the top of your roof, i wouldn't bother adding a choke ring. Attila Kinali -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. -- Sophie Scholl ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna in snowy environment (was: LEA-6T Software.)
The similar, and more serious issue is bird-poop. The pointed cone shapes you see for commercial timing receiver antennas are as much to keep birds from sitting on top of the antennas as it is to get the snow off. At least snow will eventually melt off. --- Graham / KE9H == On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 8:04 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: > On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:48:51 -0400 > Dan Kemppainen wrote: > > > Also, I have a low cost antenna coming. It's one of the Synergy systems > > puck type amplified antennas. I remember some time back a bit of chatter > > about improving GPS antennas for timing, by providing some sort of guard > > ring or choke to prevent low angle reception. Are there any good links > > anyone could provide on what may be worth building or playing with. Keep > > in mind, I live in snow country (~300 inches/year) so a something that > > gathers a lot of snow could be undesirable! :) > > How much snow you get is mostly irrelevant. It's more important > how much accumulates ;-) > > A cone hat over your antenna should solve quite a bit of the issue. > The problem is, that you need quite a steep cone or you need to heat > it constantly above 0°C, as snow tends to stick to everything, even > smooth walls. > Maybe also worth a try would be to grease the cone. But i've only heard > of that and never seen it in action. So i cannot tell whether that helps > in any way. > > Attila Kinali > > > > -- > I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in > the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous > even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being > superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. > -- Sophie Scholl > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] GPS antenna in snowy environment (was: LEA-6T Software.)
On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:48:51 -0400 Dan Kemppainen wrote: > Also, I have a low cost antenna coming. It's one of the Synergy systems > puck type amplified antennas. I remember some time back a bit of chatter > about improving GPS antennas for timing, by providing some sort of guard > ring or choke to prevent low angle reception. Are there any good links > anyone could provide on what may be worth building or playing with. Keep > in mind, I live in snow country (~300 inches/year) so a something that > gathers a lot of snow could be undesirable! :) How much snow you get is mostly irrelevant. It's more important how much accumulates ;-) A cone hat over your antenna should solve quite a bit of the issue. The problem is, that you need quite a steep cone or you need to heat it constantly above 0°C, as snow tends to stick to everything, even smooth walls. Maybe also worth a try would be to grease the cone. But i've only heard of that and never seen it in action. So i cannot tell whether that helps in any way. Attila Kinali -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. -- Sophie Scholl ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
