Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[Bruce Griffiths]

There is abrasive entrained in the fluid stream. Operation is in the ductile 
grinding regime so fluid pressures are around 6 bar or so, way below that used 
in abrasive water jet cutting.

It has been used to machine/polish crystal quartz waveplates and to 
machine/polish the surface of silicon wafers before uses for MEMS fabrication. 
Its even been used to carve channels in silicon wafers in such applications.

Bruce

 

> On 04 February 2018 at 15:26 Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Unfortunately ( at the rates you must use) the “blast it with a fire 
> hose” approach
> is not very fast…..
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> > > On Feb 3, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Bruce Griffiths 
>  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Fluid jet polishing perhaps?
> > 
> > At least on fused quartz and optical glass there is no associated 
> > subsurface damage.
> > 
> > Bruce
> > 
> > > > > 
> > > On 04 February 2018 at 14:05 Bob kb8tq  > > mailto:kb...@n1k.org > wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hi
> > > 
> > > If you try “normal” machining techniques on a resonator, you 
> > > are very
> > > likely to create micro cracks in the material. Those are 
> > > *really* bad for
> > > aging and a few other issues ….. Much of the normal 
> > > production flow of the
> > > quartz is designed to keep the processes like sawing far 
> > > enough away
> > > from the “end product” that more gentle techniques can be 
> > > used to remove
> > > the (possibly) damaged material.
> > > 
> > > Since the slots are pretty darn small, there isn’t a lot of 
> > > room for this and that
> > > to be done when making them. There may well be better ways to 
> > > do the
> > > work today than back 20 or 30 years ago. It would still take 
> > > a *lot* of effort
> > > to validate a process.
> > > 
> > > Bob
> > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > On Feb 3, 2018, at 7:24 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp 
> > > >  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > In message 
> > > > <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-616262264...@earthlink.net 
> > > > mailto:0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-616262264...@earthlink.net >, jimlux 
> > > > writes:
> > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > [1] Surprising to me is that modern 
> > > > > > dentists are highly kitted for
> > > > > > CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high 
> > > > > > precision.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > But, small "tooth sized" pieces - how big is your 
> > > > > crystal.
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > Well, they appearantly make a mouth-full at a time, so 
> > > > that is
> > > > covered...
> > > > 
> > > > I don't think the dentist machines are precise enough 
> > > > though,
> > > > as I understood it, the state-of-the-art stuff has 
> > > > built in
> > > > laser-interferrometers etc.
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > > > p...@freebsd.org mailto:p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since 
> > > > RFC 956
> > > > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > > > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be 
> > > > explained by incompetence.
> > > > 
> > > > ___
> > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com 
> > > > mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
> > > > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com 
> > > mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
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> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > 
> > > > > 
> > > 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Anything like a laser that generates heat to do the “work” will twin the 
quartz. 
Once you do that, it’s pretty much useless as a resonator. The same issue 
gets you in trouble trying to wire bond to a resonator. 

Bob

> On Feb 3, 2018, at 9:46 PM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
> 
> kb...@n1k.org said:
>> Unfortunately ( at the rates you must use) the “blast it with a fire hose”
>> approach is not very fast….. 
> 
> How fast to laser blasters work and/or how much do they damage the crystal?
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[Hal Murray]

kb...@n1k.org said:
> Unfortunately ( at the rates you must use) the “blast it with a fire hose”
> approach is not very fast….. 

How fast to laser blasters work and/or how much do they damage the crystal?


-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Unfortunately ( at the rates you must use) the “blast it with a fire hose” 
approach
is not very fast…..

Bob

> On Feb 3, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Bruce Griffiths  
> wrote:
> 
> Fluid jet polishing perhaps?
> 
> At least on fused quartz and optical glass there is no associated subsurface 
> damage.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> On 04 February 2018 at 14:05 Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> If you try “normal” machining techniques on a resonator, you are very
> likely to create micro cracks in the material. Those are *really* bad for
> aging and a few other issues ….. Much of the normal production flow of the
> quartz is designed to keep the processes like sawing far enough away
> from the “end product” that more gentle techniques can be used to remove
> the (possibly) damaged material.
> 
> Since the slots are pretty darn small, there isn’t a lot of room for this and 
> that
> to be done when making them. There may well be better ways to do the
> work today than back 20 or 30 years ago. It would still take a *lot* of effort
> to validate a process.
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Feb 3, 2018, at 7:24 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> 
> 
> In message <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-616262264...@earthlink.net>, jimlux 
> writes:
> 
> [1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly kitted for
> CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.
> 
> But, small "tooth sized" pieces - how big is your crystal.
> 
> Well, they appearantly make a mouth-full at a time, so that is
> covered...
> 
> I don't think the dentist machines are precise enough though,
> as I understood it, the state-of-the-art stuff has built in
> laser-interferrometers etc.
> 
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> 
> ___
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> 
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[Bruce Griffiths]

Fluid jet polishing perhaps?

At least on fused quartz and optical glass there is no associated subsurface 
damage.

Bruce

> 
> On 04 February 2018 at 14:05 Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> If you try “normal” machining techniques on a resonator, you are very
> likely to create micro cracks in the material. Those are *really* bad for
> aging and a few other issues ….. Much of the normal production flow of the
> quartz is designed to keep the processes like sawing far enough away
> from the “end product” that more gentle techniques can be used to remove
> the (possibly) damaged material.
> 
> Since the slots are pretty darn small, there isn’t a lot of room for this 
> and that
> to be done when making them. There may well be better ways to do the
> work today than back 20 or 30 years ago. It would still take a *lot* of 
> effort
> to validate a process.
> 
> Bob
> 
> > > 
> > On Feb 3, 2018, at 7:24 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp  
> > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > In message <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-616262264...@earthlink.net>, 
> > jimlux writes:
> > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > [1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly 
> > > > kitted for
> > > > CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.
> > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > But, small "tooth sized" pieces - how big is your crystal.
> > > 
> > > > > 
> > Well, they appearantly make a mouth-full at a time, so that is
> > covered...
> > 
> > I don't think the dentist machines are precise enough though,
> > as I understood it, the state-of-the-art stuff has built in
> > laser-interferrometers etc.
> > 
> > --
> > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by 
> > incompetence.
> > 
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > 
> > > 
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

If you try “normal” machining techniques on a resonator, you are very 
likely to create micro cracks in the material. Those are *really* bad for
aging and a few other issues ….. Much of the normal production flow of the
quartz is designed to keep the processes like sawing far enough away 
from the “end product” that more gentle techniques can be used to remove
the (possibly) damaged material. 

Since the slots are pretty darn small, there isn’t a lot of room for this and 
that
to be done when making them. There may well be better ways to do the 
work today than back 20 or 30 years ago. It would still take a *lot* of effort
to validate a process. 

Bob

> On Feb 3, 2018, at 7:24 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> 
> 
> In message <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-616262264...@earthlink.net>, jimlux 
> writes:
> 
>>> [1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly kitted for
>>> CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.
>> 
>> But, small "tooth sized" pieces - how big is your crystal.
> 
> Well, they appearantly make a mouth-full at a time, so that is
> covered...
> 
> I don't think the dentist machines are precise enough though,
> as I understood it, the state-of-the-art stuff has built in
> laser-interferrometers etc.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-616262264...@earthlink.net>, jimlux writes:

>> [1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly kitted for
>> CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.
>
>But, small "tooth sized" pieces - how big is your crystal.

Well, they appearantly make a mouth-full at a time, so that is
covered...

I don't think the dentist machines are precise enough though,
as I understood it, the state-of-the-art stuff has built in
laser-interferrometers etc.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[jimlux]

On 2/3/18 3:31 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus D
anielson writes:


The slots and thus the remaining bridges seems to have been a relatively
simple stage of the process. Orientation of the blank seems to have been
simple. The shapes for the electrodes seems to have been worse.






I have no idea if the result would actually work and be on frequency,
or for that matter, where I can borrow one of those machines, but...


with increased use of very high performance DDS and PLLs, the precise 
frequency may not be as important as it was when you were limited to 
straight up multiplication/mixing synthesis.


I suspect that a "10 MHz +/- 100kHz" might be a higher yield requirement 
than 10 MHz +/- 1ppm or +/- 1 ppb.


You could focus more on aging behavior.





The prices mentioned were not prohibitive in the context, you would
break even well before a thousand units at the prices mentioned.

Poul-Henning

[1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly kitted for
CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.


But, small "tooth sized" pieces - how big is your crystal.






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Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Back when the BVA was up for sale, by far the biggest issue was the machining 
involved
in making those slots. They don’t just have to be slots. They have to be very 
precise. Etching
will not do the trick. Neither will most machining processes. Electrode shape 
changes have
been part of resonator production for a lot of years …..

Bob

> On Feb 3, 2018, at 5:50 PM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The slots and thus the remaining bridges seems to have been a relatively
> simple stage of the process. Orientation of the blank seems to have been
> simple. The shapes for the electrodes seems to have been worse.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 02/03/2018 11:34 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> The “BVA” part of the name refers to the slots machined into the crystal 
>> blank 
>> to manage the mounting stress on the resonator. Both the “plated on the 
>> blank”
>> and the “electrodes off blank” versions are legit BVA approaches. Indeed the 
>> electrode off the blank version is the more expensive (and higher performing)
>> of the two.
>> 
>> In addition to price, one probably would want to get a quote of the delivery 
>> lead
>> time. There are some fancy OCXO’s out there with > 1 year delivery cycles. 
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Feb 3, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:02:27 -0800
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
 Anyone priced a Rakon HSO-14 option 8.
 
 It's the Oscilloquartz 8607 option 8 replacement.
 
 I'm almost afraid to ask!
>>> 
>>> I do not know the HSO-14, but when I asked what the 8607 costs new, I
>>> got ~5000 CHF for the "lowest" grade and over 14k CHF for the highest
>>> grade. Of course this was a couple of years ago. I do not know how
>>> the prices changed in the meantime. Considering that Rakon does not
>>> build a true BVA, but instead puts the electrodes directly on the
>>> resonator, I would expect them to be quite a bit cheaper (because
>>> it doesn't require the couple of µm precision between the resonator
>>> and the holder/elctrodes the BVA has).
>>> 
>>> Attila Kinali
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
>>> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
>>> use without that foundation.
>>>-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus D
anielson writes:

>The slots and thus the remaining bridges seems to have been a relatively
>simple stage of the process. Orientation of the blank seems to have been
>simple. The shapes for the electrodes seems to have been worse.

I heard a talk about "microfluidic system production" last year,
those are basically hydraulic systems on micrometer scale, mostly
for medical diagnostic applications.

There was some banter about available tools[1] and some of the ones
mentioned immediately rang the "BVA" bell in my mind.

It sounded to me like there are machines commercially available
today which could spit out very repeatable BVA assemblies in one
single operation.

I have no idea if the result would actually work and be on frequency,
or for that matter, where I can borrow one of those machines, but...

The prices mentioned were not prohibitive in the context, you would
break even well before a thousand units at the prices mentioned.

Poul-Henning

[1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly kitted for
CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

The slots and thus the remaining bridges seems to have been a relatively
simple stage of the process. Orientation of the blank seems to have been
simple. The shapes for the electrodes seems to have been worse.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 02/03/2018 11:34 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
> 
> The “BVA” part of the name refers to the slots machined into the crystal 
> blank 
> to manage the mounting stress on the resonator. Both the “plated on the blank”
> and the “electrodes off blank” versions are legit BVA approaches. Indeed the 
> electrode off the blank version is the more expensive (and higher performing)
> of the two.
> 
> In addition to price, one probably would want to get a quote of the delivery 
> lead
> time. There are some fancy OCXO’s out there with > 1 year delivery cycles. 
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Feb 3, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:02:27 -0800
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone priced a Rakon HSO-14 option 8.
>>>
>>> It's the Oscilloquartz 8607 option 8 replacement.
>>>
>>> I'm almost afraid to ask!
>>
>> I do not know the HSO-14, but when I asked what the 8607 costs new, I
>> got ~5000 CHF for the "lowest" grade and over 14k CHF for the highest
>> grade. Of course this was a couple of years ago. I do not know how
>> the prices changed in the meantime. Considering that Rakon does not
>> build a true BVA, but instead puts the electrodes directly on the
>> resonator, I would expect them to be quite a bit cheaper (because
>> it doesn't require the couple of µm precision between the resonator
>> and the holder/elctrodes the BVA has).
>>
>>  Attila Kinali
>>
>> -- 
>> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
>> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
>> use without that foundation.
>> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The “BVA” part of the name refers to the slots machined into the crystal blank 
to manage the mounting stress on the resonator. Both the “plated on the blank”
and the “electrodes off blank” versions are legit BVA approaches. Indeed the 
electrode off the blank version is the more expensive (and higher performing)
of the two.

In addition to price, one probably would want to get a quote of the delivery 
lead
time. There are some fancy OCXO’s out there with > 1 year delivery cycles. 

Bob

> On Feb 3, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:02:27 -0800
>  wrote:
> 
>> Anyone priced a Rakon HSO-14 option 8.
>> 
>> It's the Oscilloquartz 8607 option 8 replacement.
>> 
>> I'm almost afraid to ask!
> 
> I do not know the HSO-14, but when I asked what the 8607 costs new, I
> got ~5000 CHF for the "lowest" grade and over 14k CHF for the highest
> grade. Of course this was a couple of years ago. I do not know how
> the prices changed in the meantime. Considering that Rakon does not
> build a true BVA, but instead puts the electrodes directly on the
> resonator, I would expect them to be quite a bit cheaper (because
> it doesn't require the couple of µm precision between the resonator
> and the holder/elctrodes the BVA has).
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14

[Attila Kinali]

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:02:27 -0800
 wrote:

> Anyone priced a Rakon HSO-14 option 8.
> 
> It's the Oscilloquartz 8607 option 8 replacement.
> 
> I'm almost afraid to ask!

I do not know the HSO-14, but when I asked what the 8607 costs new, I
got ~5000 CHF for the "lowest" grade and over 14k CHF for the highest
grade. Of course this was a couple of years ago. I do not know how
the prices changed in the meantime. Considering that Rakon does not
build a true BVA, but instead puts the electrodes directly on the
resonator, I would expect them to be quite a bit cheaper (because
it doesn't require the couple of µm precision between the resonator
and the holder/elctrodes the BVA has).

Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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