Re: [time-nuts] WWV/CHU

[Tom Van Baak]

> This is an IEEE article from 1972 that looks like a good fit:
>  Nationwide Precise Time and Frequency
>  Distribution Utilizing an Active Code Within
>   Network Television Broadcasts
>DAVID A. HOWE
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3092613

FYI: for the original spam-free version, please use:

https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/469.pdf

In general, if the author or paper is related to NIST, the original 
copyright-free PDF will be available in the NIST Time and Frequency Publication 
Database. That easily searchable database, and the thousands of papers it 
contains, is probably the greatest asset we time nuts have. For those of you 
that don't know it yet, check it out:

https://tf.nist.gov/general/publications.htm

As a non-academic working from home one of the greatest frustrations is getting 
copies of old and new scientific articles. NIST seems to be the rare exception. 
Decade after decade, administration after administration, that database keeps 
working.

> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.

Me too, which is why it's so frustrating to deal with web sites that scrap free 
PDF's and then serve them to you for a price or with a side of spam. There are 
even web sites that serve all our time-nuts postings along with injected 
targeted ads.

/tvb

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Re: [time-nuts] WWV/CHU

[Hal Murray]

jim...@earthlink.net said:
> Hal, you should know better than to have a question like "get time" on this
> list without specify the precision and accuracy . 

I was thinking of measuring the results, and maybe comparing various 
receivers if I get that far.

"Good enough" for me would be to see the change in prop delay from night to 
day.


> I was in a meeting yesterday with a lot of technical people, discussing
> testing an HF receiver, and I mentioned WWV as a source, and there were  a
> combination of blank looks and amused/amazed looks (at the blank  looks) -
> OK, so now we know who in the room are the computer only people  (WWV? is
> that some sort of NTP protocol?) and who  are the radio people 

I listened to WWV as a kid.  I think my father told me about it.  (We had a 
good collection of old tube radios.)

Roughly 40 years ago, a friend showed me a NBS booklet describing a scheme 
for distributing time via TV.  I forget the details.  It was a cooperative 
project with one of the major networks.  NBS published the propagation delays 
which changed occasionally as the phone companies providing the underlying 
links rerouted things.

This is an IEEE article from 1972 that looks like a good fit:
  Nationwide Precise Time and Frequency
  Distribution Utilizing an Active Code Within
   Network Television Broadcasts
DAVID A. HOWE
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3092613



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[time-nuts] Ultralink

[Hal Murray]

I have a 333 box with 301 antenna.  It was a gift several years ago.  The 
display updates, but the meter never gets off 0.  At the time, I thought the 
new modulation scheme had killed it and didn't investigate.  But tvb 
suggested it should still work, so I took the cover off.

Anybody know anything about the innards?  I see a 20 pin DIP that says Atmel. 
 I assume that's the CPU.  The display updates, so it's obviously mostly 
working.  There are also 2 8 pin DIPs and a transistor.

There are 3 pots in one corner, labeled: LCD, AGC, and A/D.

I haven't opened the antenna box yet.

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Re: [time-nuts] Ultralink WWVB receiver manuals?

[D. Resor]

It appears that UTSource has the U4226B in stock under several manufacturers, 
including Atmel.

https://www.utsource.net/sch/U4226B


Donald Resor
N6KAW



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 4:12 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ultralink WWVB receiver manuals?

Thanks to another list memo, I got the basic manual.  Got it fired up and while 
it does things, I think there's a problem.  The S Meter is pinned all the way 
over to the right (very, very strong signal) and stays there no matter how I 
shield the antenna.  And I never see any decoded bits.  I hope the receiver 
chip (U4226B, unobtanium except from
China) isn't shot.  

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Re: [time-nuts] Ultralink WWVB receiver manuals?

[Tom Van Baak]

> It would be very nice to have a direct NIST time source in the lab 
> again, complete with PPS output.

If you have a 1200/9600 baud modem and a land line, 303.494.4774 is also a 
reliable backup source of NIST time.

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/services/automated-computer-time-service-acts

/tvb

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Re: [time-nuts] Ultralink WWVB receiver manuals?

[John Ackermann N8UR]

Thanks to another list memo, I got the basic manual.  Got it fired up 
and while it does things, I think there's a problem.  The S Meter is 
pinned all the way over to the right (very, very strong signal) and 
stays there no matter how I shield the antenna.  And I never see any 
decoded bits.  I hope the receiver chip (U4226B, unobtanium except from 
China) isn't shot.  Will do more testing when I get some cycles free.


It would be very nice to have a direct NIST time source in the lab 
again, complete with PPS output.


Thanks!
John


On 03/29/2018 05:55 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

Congrats on your acquisition. The Ultralink WWVB receivers are very nice. It 
should still work -- it's an AM subcode (not carrier phase) receiver. If you 
have more questions let me know. These modules were the darling of precise time 
at the turn of the century; before mobile phones, before GPS was affordable. 
Ultralink discontinued the product line within a few years when the market for 
WWVB-based timing dried up.

Manuals here: http://leapsecond.com/museum/ulio/

Good question on the cable. If you don't see it in the manual let me know; I'll 
dig out my cable and have a look. Note the inner 4 of 6 pins are Vcc, TCO, AGC, 
gnd.

/tvb

- Original Message -
From: "John Ackermann N8UR" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 8:57 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Ultralink WWVB receiver manuals?



I just acquired an Ultralink WWVB timecode receiver -- more
specifically, model 301 receiver and model 333 decoder.

I'm looking for documentation on these guys.  Anyone have a manual
they'd be willing to share?

The key questions are really just two:  (a) is the 6P6C modular cable
connecting the receiver and decoder straight, or reversed, and (b) what
are the four DIP switches on the back of the 333 used for?

Thanks for any info.

John
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Re: [time-nuts] Ultralink WWVB receiver manuals?

[Hal Murray]

>From info for a 332A, YMMV, etc...

>  (a) is the 6P6C modular cable 
> connecting the receiver and decoder straight, or reversed

Receiver/decoder cable RJ11-4/6 wired pin 1 to pin 1 - 500
   feet maximum length

> (b) what are the four DIP switches on the back of the 333 used for?

Option switches - 4 position dip switch provides installed
option selection as follows:
1Battery backup - ON is enabled
2Report time each second - ON is enabled
3,4  Reserved

Backup Battery Enable
Upon power up, place Option Switch 1 in the ON
position to enable RTC battery backup. During ship-
ment and periods of no use, set this switch to OFF to
avoid battery cell reversal.

Reset
The decoder may be reset by removing power and
setting Option Switch 1 to OFF for a few seconds.


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Re: [time-nuts] Ultralink WWVB receiver manuals?

[Tom Van Baak]

Congrats on your acquisition. The Ultralink WWVB receivers are very nice. It 
should still work -- it's an AM subcode (not carrier phase) receiver. If you 
have more questions let me know. These modules were the darling of precise time 
at the turn of the century; before mobile phones, before GPS was affordable. 
Ultralink discontinued the product line within a few years when the market for 
WWVB-based timing dried up.

Manuals here: http://leapsecond.com/museum/ulio/

Good question on the cable. If you don't see it in the manual let me know; I'll 
dig out my cable and have a look. Note the inner 4 of 6 pins are Vcc, TCO, AGC, 
gnd.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "John Ackermann N8UR" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 8:57 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Ultralink WWVB receiver manuals?


> I just acquired an Ultralink WWVB timecode receiver -- more 
> specifically, model 301 receiver and model 333 decoder.
> 
> I'm looking for documentation on these guys.  Anyone have a manual 
> they'd be willing to share?
> 
> The key questions are really just two:  (a) is the 6P6C modular cable 
> connecting the receiver and decoder straight, or reversed, and (b) what 
> are the four DIP switches on the back of the 333 used for?
> 
> Thanks for any info.
> 
> John
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Re: [time-nuts] Introduction ... HP 3586

[Dave Daniel]

I concur. That is a great write-up on the 3586.

However, note that there are at least three revisions of that document 
(version 2.0, 2004, version 2.1, 2007 and 2.2, 2007). Version 2.1 (at 
least in the copy that I have) is missing the front panel figures in 
section 4 and the schematic figures in Appendix C. The copy on the KO4BB 
website is revision 2.2, which has the figures in section 4 but is 
missing the schematic figures in Appendix C.


DaveD

On 3/29/2018 11:59 AM, Gregory Beat wrote:

I highly recommend the Practical Guide created by Bill Feldmann, N6PY (sk, 
2007),
found in the KO4BB repository.
—
NOTE: Check for damage by the NiCad battery !!
—-
A PRACTICAL GUIDE FOR USING THE HP 3586A/B/C SELECTIVE LEVEL METER
Expanded Version, (Version 2.2), September 2007
by Bill Feldmann, N6PY
(Addition of figures and repagination courtesy of Perry Sandeen 7/09)
http://www.ko4bb.com/manuals/24.14.254.9/A_Practical_Guide_For_Using_The_HP_3586.pdf

The HP 3586 family of Selective Level Meters was designed for the measurement 
of low power or voltage levels on telephone lines carrying multiplexed single 
side band radio frequency signals along with lower frequency audio signals. 
It’s designed to test and troubleshoot parameters commonly found on these 
lines. This instrument is a very sensitive, selective and accurately calibrated 
receiver that’s also capable of outputting a very low distortion signal of 0dBm 
at exactly the frequency it’s tuned to.
==
greg, w9gb

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Re: [time-nuts] Introduction, new list member, Ms Tisha Hayes, AA4HA

[paul swed]

Tisha
Welcome to the group.
The 3586s are very nice I have more then a few.
That said get the nicad battery out of the system ASAP.
The charging circuit is very poor and overcharges them. (Pretty odd for HP)
When they leak they destroy the power supply regulator board.
It is a mess to clean up and the to repair traces.
The stuff eats through the board and causes all sorts of very bad behaviors
because the of trace to trace to leaks.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Jerry Hancock  wrote:

> Yep, 3586B put me in the top list two times I used it along with a
> calibrated SpectrumLab + PC combo.  I’d like to use my IC-7610 this time,
> have to figure all that out I guess as the April test rapidly approaches
> UTC time I remember now.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:
> >
> > The impedance mismatch with the A or B models is't a real issue unless
> you're doing precise amplitude measurements.  Lots of folks use them for
> FMT work without issues. There are adapters available or buildable to deal
> with the odd Telco connectors.
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Mar 29, 2018, 3:04 AM, at 3:04 AM, Ruslan Nabioullin <
> rnabioul...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 9:49 PM, Tisha Hayes 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Perry and I would make our pilgrimages to the Huntsville Ham Fest and
> >>> usually I ended up buying equipment from him. One of the items he
> >> sent my
> >>> way was an HP 3586B that I am finally beginning to put to use.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Hmm that measuring receiver model (diffs can be found in:
> >> http://www.militaryradio.com/manuals/HP/hp3586-a-b-c.pdf ) was
> >> apparently
> >> intended for testing and troubleshooting purposes for those ancient
> >> FDM-based POTS trunk systems, not as a general-purpose HF measuring
> >> receiver (the HP 3586C)---I'm not sure how well they would function as
> >> HF
> >> receivers for WWV and CHU following impedance adaptation (b/c it
> >> doesn't
> >> have a 50 ohm unbalanced interface).
> >>
> >> In my case, I supply my time transfer volunteers with the following
> >> setup:
> >>
> >> vertical antenna -> TVSS -> preamplifier -> military rackmount
> >> preselector
> >> -> military/intelligence rackmount parametric demodulator or HP 3586C
> >> ->
> >> Xeon NTP server via soundcard
> >>
> >> with GNU/Linux daemon software which commands the preselector and
> >> demodulator via GPIB.
> >>
> >> Still, WWV/CHU-derived public NTP nodes are virtually nonexistent, and
> >> therefore there's a strong need for them, regardless of the
> >> sophistication
> >> of the receiver, due to the pitfalls of GNSS.
> >>
> >> -Ruslan
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ruslan Nabioullin
> >> Wittgenstein Laboratories
> >> rnabioul...@gmail.com
> >> (508) 523-8535
> >> 50 Louise Dr.
> >> Hollis, NH 03049
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] WWV/CHU

[paul swed]

I'll add to the conversation. CHU is easier to deal with because its not a
subcarrier as the 100 Hz WWV signal is.
Its FSK and bell 103 modem style.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 10:08 AM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 3/29/18 3:49 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 03:12:24 -0700
>> Hal Murray  wrote:
>>
>> What do I need in in order to get time from WWV or CHU?
>>>
>>> Do I need a fancy receiver as a front end?  Do I have a chance with one
>>> of
>>> the low cost USB thumb drive size receivers?
>>>
>>> Is there an obvious software package to start with?  (Linux)
>>>
>>
>> I think the easiest is GnuRadio... A quick googling lead
>> to https://github.com/jasonabele/gr-wwvb
>> I don't know anything about it so use at own risk :)
>> But at least it seems like something that can be done easily
>> on a rainy evening.
>>
>> Normal RTL-SDR's do not work for WWVB as they have a lower cut of
>> frequency in the range of 20-50MHz...unless you bypass the tuner
>> chip and feed the signal directly to the ADC. As IIRC all RTL-SDR
>> give you something like 2Msps, that should be more than plenty to
>> decode WWVB and related signals. If you feed the RTL-SDR from an
>> external frequency source, you should be able to related that
>> frequency source to WWV.
>>
>
> The RTL-SDR is an interesting device - I'm putting together a hobby HF
> interferometer with GPS to provide time tags.
>
> Yes, most of the newer parts (RTL-SDR v3, for instance) provide a
> programmable bypass of the front end downconverter (the part is actually
> designed to tune TV signals and the L-band output of a consumer dish LNB)
> The backend chip (RTL2832U) is a digital downconverter which mixes and
> filters the nominal 3.5 MHz IF which is sampled at 28.8 MHz
>
> You can actually adjust the output sample rate - something around 2
> Msample/second is the default, but there's lots of other rates available.
> For WWV you could crank it down, but..
> The ADC is 8 bits (7 ENOB) and the output is 8 bit I/8 bit Q.
>
> Folks have modified the RTL-SDR to accept an external frequency reference,
> so you could take the output from your ensemble of Cesium references to
> discipline a hydrogen maser (so your close in phase noise is better),then
> use that to drive a 28.8 MHz discrete divide/multiply chain, and run that
> into your $30 receiver to improve the frequency accuracy.  (not for nothing
> are we called time-nuts)
>
>
>
>
>
>> Attila Kinali
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWV/CHU

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

There are a *lot* of HF receiver gizmos out there these days. Is $5 to much to 
spend? 
Does the budget make it up to $300? Do you want to pick up *every* time 
transmission
at once? (as constrained by propagation). 

For something like 5 MHz / 10 MHz WWVB plus CHU, there are $20 demo boards that 
look like
they would do the trick as.a direct sampling device. I haven’t tried one yet. I 
have no idea
how well they actually do. 

My guess is that at HF, propagation will limit the usefulness of the carrier as 
a stable 
signal. Anything that will drift less than a few 10’s of Hz is going to do fine 
to pick up the audio.
That’s not all that crazy hard at 10 MHz. 

Once you do get the time ticks off of the audio, you still have a “millisecond” 
level accuracy
signal due to propagation. You also have a signal that will drop out from time 
to time ( unless
you live in Colorado).

Bob


> On Mar 29, 2018, at 10:08 AM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 3/29/18 3:49 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 03:12:24 -0700
>> Hal Murray  wrote:
>>> What do I need in in order to get time from WWV or CHU?
>>> 
>>> Do I need a fancy receiver as a front end?  Do I have a chance with one of
>>> the low cost USB thumb drive size receivers?
>>> 
>>> Is there an obvious software package to start with?  (Linux)
>> I think the easiest is GnuRadio... A quick googling lead
>> to https://github.com/jasonabele/gr-wwvb
>> I don't know anything about it so use at own risk :)
>> But at least it seems like something that can be done easily
>> on a rainy evening.
>> Normal RTL-SDR's do not work for WWVB as they have a lower cut of
>> frequency in the range of 20-50MHz...unless you bypass the tuner
>> chip and feed the signal directly to the ADC. As IIRC all RTL-SDR
>> give you something like 2Msps, that should be more than plenty to
>> decode WWVB and related signals. If you feed the RTL-SDR from an
>> external frequency source, you should be able to related that
>> frequency source to WWV.
> 
> The RTL-SDR is an interesting device - I'm putting together a hobby HF 
> interferometer with GPS to provide time tags.
> 
> Yes, most of the newer parts (RTL-SDR v3, for instance) provide a 
> programmable bypass of the front end downconverter (the part is actually 
> designed to tune TV signals and the L-band output of a consumer dish LNB)
> The backend chip (RTL2832U) is a digital downconverter which mixes and 
> filters the nominal 3.5 MHz IF which is sampled at 28.8 MHz
> 
> You can actually adjust the output sample rate - something around 2 
> Msample/second is the default, but there's lots of other rates available.  
> For WWV you could crank it down, but..
> The ADC is 8 bits (7 ENOB) and the output is 8 bit I/8 bit Q.
> 
> Folks have modified the RTL-SDR to accept an external frequency reference, so 
> you could take the output from your ensemble of Cesium references to 
> discipline a hydrogen maser (so your close in phase noise is better),then use 
> that to drive a 28.8 MHz discrete divide/multiply chain, and run that into 
> your $30 receiver to improve the frequency accuracy.  (not for nothing are we 
> called time-nuts)
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>  Attila Kinali
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Introduction ... HP 3586

[Gregory Beat]

I highly recommend the Practical Guide created by Bill Feldmann, N6PY (sk, 
2007),
found in the KO4BB repository.
—
NOTE: Check for damage by the NiCad battery !!
—-
A PRACTICAL GUIDE FOR USING THE HP 3586A/B/C SELECTIVE LEVEL METER
Expanded Version, (Version 2.2), September 2007
by Bill Feldmann, N6PY 
(Addition of figures and repagination courtesy of Perry Sandeen 7/09)
http://www.ko4bb.com/manuals/24.14.254.9/A_Practical_Guide_For_Using_The_HP_3586.pdf

The HP 3586 family of Selective Level Meters was designed for the measurement 
of low power or voltage levels on telephone lines carrying multiplexed single 
side band radio frequency signals along with lower frequency audio signals. 
It’s designed to test and troubleshoot parameters commonly found on these 
lines. This instrument is a very sensitive, selective and accurately calibrated 
receiver that’s also capable of outputting a very low distortion signal of 0dBm 
at exactly the frequency it’s tuned to.
==
greg, w9gb

Sent from iPad Air
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Re: [time-nuts] Introduction, new list member, Ms Tisha Hayes, AA4HA

[Jerry Hancock]

Yep, 3586B put me in the top list two times I used it along with a calibrated 
SpectrumLab + PC combo.  I’d like to use my IC-7610 this time, have to figure 
all that out I guess as the April test rapidly approaches UTC time I remember 
now.


Regards,

Jerry


> On Mar 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:
> 
> The impedance mismatch with the A or B models is't a real issue unless you're 
> doing precise amplitude measurements.  Lots of folks use them for FMT work 
> without issues. There are adapters available or buildable to deal with the 
> odd Telco connectors.
> 
> John
> 
> On Mar 29, 2018, 3:04 AM, at 3:04 AM, Ruslan Nabioullin 
>  wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 9:49 PM, Tisha Hayes 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Perry and I would make our pilgrimages to the Huntsville Ham Fest and
>>> usually I ended up buying equipment from him. One of the items he
>> sent my
>>> way was an HP 3586B that I am finally beginning to put to use.
>>> 
>> 
>> Hmm that measuring receiver model (diffs can be found in:
>> http://www.militaryradio.com/manuals/HP/hp3586-a-b-c.pdf ) was
>> apparently
>> intended for testing and troubleshooting purposes for those ancient
>> FDM-based POTS trunk systems, not as a general-purpose HF measuring
>> receiver (the HP 3586C)---I'm not sure how well they would function as
>> HF
>> receivers for WWV and CHU following impedance adaptation (b/c it
>> doesn't
>> have a 50 ohm unbalanced interface).
>> 
>> In my case, I supply my time transfer volunteers with the following
>> setup:
>> 
>> vertical antenna -> TVSS -> preamplifier -> military rackmount
>> preselector
>> -> military/intelligence rackmount parametric demodulator or HP 3586C
>> ->
>> Xeon NTP server via soundcard
>> 
>> with GNU/Linux daemon software which commands the preselector and
>> demodulator via GPIB.
>> 
>> Still, WWV/CHU-derived public NTP nodes are virtually nonexistent, and
>> therefore there's a strong need for them, regardless of the
>> sophistication
>> of the receiver, due to the pitfalls of GNSS.
>> 
>> -Ruslan
>> 
>> -- 
>> Ruslan Nabioullin
>> Wittgenstein Laboratories
>> rnabioul...@gmail.com
>> (508) 523-8535
>> 50 Louise Dr.
>> Hollis, NH 03049
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[time-nuts] Ultralink WWVB receiver manuals?

[John Ackermann N8UR]

I just acquired an Ultralink WWVB timecode receiver -- more 
specifically, model 301 receiver and model 333 decoder.


I'm looking for documentation on these guys.  Anyone have a manual 
they'd be willing to share?


The key questions are really just two:  (a) is the 6P6C modular cable 
connecting the receiver and decoder straight, or reversed, and (b) what 
are the four DIP switches on the back of the 333 used for?


Thanks for any info.

John
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Re: [time-nuts] WWV/CHU

[jimlux]

On 3/29/18 3:49 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:

On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 03:12:24 -0700
Hal Murray  wrote:


What do I need in in order to get time from WWV or CHU?

Do I need a fancy receiver as a front end?  Do I have a chance with one of
the low cost USB thumb drive size receivers?

Is there an obvious software package to start with?  (Linux)


I think the easiest is GnuRadio... A quick googling lead
to https://github.com/jasonabele/gr-wwvb
I don't know anything about it so use at own risk :)
But at least it seems like something that can be done easily
on a rainy evening.

Normal RTL-SDR's do not work for WWVB as they have a lower cut of
frequency in the range of 20-50MHz...unless you bypass the tuner
chip and feed the signal directly to the ADC. As IIRC all RTL-SDR
give you something like 2Msps, that should be more than plenty to
decode WWVB and related signals. If you feed the RTL-SDR from an
external frequency source, you should be able to related that
frequency source to WWV.


The RTL-SDR is an interesting device - I'm putting together a hobby HF 
interferometer with GPS to provide time tags.


Yes, most of the newer parts (RTL-SDR v3, for instance) provide a 
programmable bypass of the front end downconverter (the part is actually 
designed to tune TV signals and the L-band output of a consumer dish LNB)
The backend chip (RTL2832U) is a digital downconverter which mixes and 
filters the nominal 3.5 MHz IF which is sampled at 28.8 MHz


You can actually adjust the output sample rate - something around 2 
Msample/second is the default, but there's lots of other rates 
available.  For WWV you could crank it down, but..

The ADC is 8 bits (7 ENOB) and the output is 8 bit I/8 bit Q.

Folks have modified the RTL-SDR to accept an external frequency 
reference, so you could take the output from your ensemble of Cesium 
references to discipline a hydrogen maser (so your close in phase noise 
is better),then use that to drive a 28.8 MHz discrete divide/multiply 
chain, and run that into your $30 receiver to improve the frequency 
accuracy.  (not for nothing are we called time-nuts)







Attila Kinali



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Re: [time-nuts] WWV/CHU

[jimlux]

On 3/29/18 3:12 AM, Hal Murray wrote:


What do I need in in order to get time from WWV or CHU?

Do I need a fancy receiver as a front end?  Do I have a chance with one of
the low cost USB thumb drive size receivers?

Is there an obvious software package to start with?  (Linux)



Hal,
you should know better than to have a question like "get time" on this 
list without specify the precision and accuracy .


I was in a meeting yesterday with a lot of technical people, discussing 
testing an HF receiver, and I mentioned WWV as a source, and there were 
a combination of blank looks and amused/amazed looks (at the blank 
looks) - OK, so now we know who in the room are the computer only people 
(WWV? is that some sort of NTP protocol?) and who  are the radio people



The little HF dongle receivers will certainly receive HF WWV or WWVH, if 
propagation supports it, and you can listen to the dulcet tones of the 
appropriately gendered announcer ("at the tone, the time will be twelve 
hours thirty four minutes coordinated universal time") - you could 
probably track and decode the tone/ticks.  I would think that if you can 
hear the voice, you can decode the 100 Hz subcarrier, but I've not tried 
it. You can see the 100 Hz on a spectrum analysis display.


I would think that you can get propagation limited accuracy with the 
RTL-SDR type receiver.


Antenna is going to be the big challenge - the little whip antenna for 
the dongle won't usually cut it.



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Re: [time-nuts] WWV/CHU

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

If you are running 10 MHz as your lab standard, you *will* have 10 MHz floating 
around. 
Add to that various 10 MHz OCXO’s here or there on the bench and you have even 
more
odd stuff right at 10 MHz. Yes, if you run triple shield coax for your standard 
lines and your
antenna is 1000’ from your lab, this may not be that big an issue. If you setup 
is a bit more
modest, as WWV fades, the local stuff will be apparent. Bottom line - consider 
5 MHz  (
unless you are set up with that as your standard ….).

Bob

> On Mar 29, 2018, at 6:58 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
> 
> It does not take a fancy receiver to hear WWV or CHU. Any super low end 
> shortwave portable (less than $100) will do fine.
> 
> You then feed the audio into a PC with naps configured for NTP audio refclock.
> 
> The wideband USB connected DSP receivers are neat and I am using one for 
> various purposes in the shack but not yet WWV. You would have to characterize 
> one and it’s computer based DSP processing for latency.
> 
> Any such setup has to be characterized for latency (propagation + receiver+ 
> soundcard) anyway. Sub-millisecond accuracy is a reasonable goal.
> 
> In continental US, one or more of the three 5/10/15 MHz WWV signals is 
> receivable most any time of day. NTP WWV software knows how to cycle one 
> particular model of receiver through the frequencies and can easily be 
> modified to work with other computer-controllable receivers.
> 
> WWVH can be reliably heard for some of each day as well.
> 
> A recent QST or QEX had a nice simple 10MHz WWV receiver in it. I think it 
> was oriented towards extracting 10MHz carrier and not for demodulating the 
> time code, however.
> 
> Tim N3QE
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2018, at 6:12 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> What do I need in in order to get time from WWV or CHU?
>> 
>> Do I need a fancy receiver as a front end?  Do I have a chance with one of 
>> the low cost USB thumb drive size receivers?
>> 
>> Is there an obvious software package to start with?  (Linux)
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Introduction, new list member, Ms Tisha Hayes, AA4HA

[John Ackermann N8UR]

The impedance mismatch with the A or B models is't a real issue unless you're 
doing precise amplitude measurements.  Lots of folks use them for FMT work 
without issues. There are adapters available or buildable to deal with the odd 
Telco connectors.

John

On Mar 29, 2018, 3:04 AM, at 3:04 AM, Ruslan Nabioullin  
wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 9:49 PM, Tisha Hayes 
>wrote:
>
>> Perry and I would make our pilgrimages to the Huntsville Ham Fest and
>> usually I ended up buying equipment from him. One of the items he
>sent my
>> way was an HP 3586B that I am finally beginning to put to use.
>>
>
>Hmm that measuring receiver model (diffs can be found in:
>http://www.militaryradio.com/manuals/HP/hp3586-a-b-c.pdf ) was
>apparently
>intended for testing and troubleshooting purposes for those ancient
>FDM-based POTS trunk systems, not as a general-purpose HF measuring
>receiver (the HP 3586C)---I'm not sure how well they would function as
>HF
>receivers for WWV and CHU following impedance adaptation (b/c it
>doesn't
>have a 50 ohm unbalanced interface).
>
>In my case, I supply my time transfer volunteers with the following
>setup:
>
>vertical antenna -> TVSS -> preamplifier -> military rackmount
>preselector
>-> military/intelligence rackmount parametric demodulator or HP 3586C
>->
>Xeon NTP server via soundcard
>
>with GNU/Linux daemon software which commands the preselector and
>demodulator via GPIB.
>
>Still, WWV/CHU-derived public NTP nodes are virtually nonexistent, and
>therefore there's a strong need for them, regardless of the
>sophistication
>of the receiver, due to the pitfalls of GNSS.
>
>-Ruslan
>
>-- 
>Ruslan Nabioullin
>Wittgenstein Laboratories
>rnabioul...@gmail.com
>(508) 523-8535
>50 Louise Dr.
>Hollis, NH 03049
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Re: [time-nuts] Introduction, new list member, Ms Tisha Hayes, AA4HA

[bill.riches]

Hi Tisha,

Welcome to our group.  We are fortunate to have another technicians technician 
in our gaggle. I have replaced the bulb in two of n 3586b units and it was not 
difficult.  I may have an extra bulb I can send you and somewhere on this list 
I think there was an article on replacing same.  The 3586 is quite a versatile 
unit, along with being a musical instrument.

 Turn up the volume, then Push "recall"  "decimal point" "center freq'  "8" and 
then wait a few seconds.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May, NJ

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of Tisha Hayes
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 9:50 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Introduction, new list member, Ms Tisha Hayes, AA4HA

Greetings to all of the time-nuts on this list. I too have an interest
(obsession?) with precision frequency measurement. I have known, visited and 
had dinner with Perry Sandeen (also a list member) while he lived in Tennessee 
where we shared a common interest in the beloved R-390A receiver and test 
equipment.

Perry and I would make our pilgrimages to the Huntsville Ham Fest and usually I 
ended up buying equipment from him. One of the items he sent my way was an HP 
3586B that I am finally beginning to put to use.

I am trying to find out how to fix the tuning control on the HP3586B and that 
led me back to this list. If anyone has suggestions on making repairs I would 
appreciate the info; I am very capable of troubleshooting and making component 
level repairs, even if I have to take the tuning control apart to fix the 
optical chopper light source.

*Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA*
*(Senior Engineer with 4RF USA)*

*Gadsden, Alabama*
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Re: [time-nuts] WWV/CHU

[Tim Shoppa]

It does not take a fancy receiver to hear WWV or CHU. Any super low end 
shortwave portable (less than $100) will do fine.

You then feed the audio into a PC with naps configured for NTP audio refclock.

The wideband USB connected DSP receivers are neat and I am using one for 
various purposes in the shack but not yet WWV. You would have to characterize 
one and it’s computer based DSP processing for latency.

Any such setup has to be characterized for latency (propagation + receiver+ 
soundcard) anyway. Sub-millisecond accuracy is a reasonable goal.

In continental US, one or more of the three 5/10/15 MHz WWV signals is 
receivable most any time of day. NTP WWV software knows how to cycle one 
particular model of receiver through the frequencies and can easily be modified 
to work with other computer-controllable receivers.

WWVH can be reliably heard for some of each day as well.

A recent QST or QEX had a nice simple 10MHz WWV receiver in it. I think it was 
oriented towards extracting 10MHz carrier and not for demodulating the time 
code, however.

Tim N3QE

> On Mar 29, 2018, at 6:12 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
> 
> What do I need in in order to get time from WWV or CHU?
> 
> Do I need a fancy receiver as a front end?  Do I have a chance with one of 
> the low cost USB thumb drive size receivers?
> 
> Is there an obvious software package to start with?  (Linux)
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] WWV/CHU

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 03:12:24 -0700
Hal Murray  wrote:

> What do I need in in order to get time from WWV or CHU?
> 
> Do I need a fancy receiver as a front end?  Do I have a chance with one of 
> the low cost USB thumb drive size receivers?
> 
> Is there an obvious software package to start with?  (Linux)

I think the easiest is GnuRadio... A quick googling lead
to https://github.com/jasonabele/gr-wwvb
I don't know anything about it so use at own risk :)
But at least it seems like something that can be done easily
on a rainy evening.

Normal RTL-SDR's do not work for WWVB as they have a lower cut of
frequency in the range of 20-50MHz...unless you bypass the tuner
chip and feed the signal directly to the ADC. As IIRC all RTL-SDR
give you something like 2Msps, that should be more than plenty to
decode WWVB and related signals. If you feed the RTL-SDR from an
external frequency source, you should be able to related that
frequency source to WWV.

Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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[time-nuts] WWV/CHU

[Hal Murray]

What do I need in in order to get time from WWV or CHU?

Do I need a fancy receiver as a front end?  Do I have a chance with one of 
the low cost USB thumb drive size receivers?

Is there an obvious software package to start with?  (Linux)


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Introduction, new list member, Ms Tisha Hayes, AA4HA

[Ruslan Nabioullin]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 9:49 PM, Tisha Hayes  wrote:

> Perry and I would make our pilgrimages to the Huntsville Ham Fest and
> usually I ended up buying equipment from him. One of the items he sent my
> way was an HP 3586B that I am finally beginning to put to use.
>

Hmm that measuring receiver model (diffs can be found in:
http://www.militaryradio.com/manuals/HP/hp3586-a-b-c.pdf ) was apparently
intended for testing and troubleshooting purposes for those ancient
FDM-based POTS trunk systems, not as a general-purpose HF measuring
receiver (the HP 3586C)---I'm not sure how well they would function as HF
receivers for WWV and CHU following impedance adaptation (b/c it doesn't
have a 50 ohm unbalanced interface).

In my case, I supply my time transfer volunteers with the following setup:

vertical antenna -> TVSS -> preamplifier -> military rackmount preselector
-> military/intelligence rackmount parametric demodulator or HP 3586C ->
Xeon NTP server via soundcard

with GNU/Linux daemon software which commands the preselector and
demodulator via GPIB.

Still, WWV/CHU-derived public NTP nodes are virtually nonexistent, and
therefore there's a strong need for them, regardless of the sophistication
of the receiver, due to the pitfalls of GNSS.

-Ruslan

-- 
Ruslan Nabioullin
Wittgenstein Laboratories
rnabioul...@gmail.com
(508) 523-8535
50 Louise Dr.
Hollis, NH 03049
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