Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[paul swed]

Tom
I may ask for the paper offline. Though kind of wonder how much sense I
will make of it.
What I am reading is that increasing the temp of the oven in an end of life
tube can indeed increase the signal. Maybe it doesn't shift the spectrum or
resonance. That would tend to suggest my funny offset is the DC oven
controller. Seems hard to believe because its only the oven thats under DC
heating.

Thanks for teaching.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 5:36 AM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:

> > Never heard that story.  You gotta love it:  a hot rod atomic clock.
> >
> > Rick
>
> A well-written, very readable version of the story is in here:
> http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/publications/measure/pdf/1977_
> 04.pdf
>
> and the technical paper with all the details of the experiment is here:
> https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19820012654.pdf
>
> Another story about the 5071 is "turbo" mode which hp/Agilent briefly
> touted at PTTI 10 or 15 years ago. Do you remember that? It was a firmware
> upgrade that would boost stability even above the high-performance level.
> Of course it would burn Cs like there was no tomorrow, but for a brief time
> you'd get another couple of dB. Hard to say if that was a Jack idea or a
> Len idea. But it reminded me of "Spinal Tap". I wish I had kept a copy of
> the flyer or the ADEV plots. Maybe you know?
>
> See, these are all the kinds of things Attila could play with and tell us
> about if he decided to build his own cesium clock ;-)
>
> /tvb
>
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Tom Van Baak]

> Never heard that story.  You gotta love it:  a hot rod atomic clock.
> 
> Rick

A well-written, very readable version of the story is in here:
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/publications/measure/pdf/1977_04.pdf

and the technical paper with all the details of the experiment is here:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19820012654.pdf

Another story about the 5071 is "turbo" mode which hp/Agilent briefly touted at 
PTTI 10 or 15 years ago. Do you remember that? It was a firmware upgrade that 
would boost stability even above the high-performance level. Of course it would 
burn Cs like there was no tomorrow, but for a brief time you'd get another 
couple of dB. Hard to say if that was a Jack idea or a Len idea. But it 
reminded me of "Spinal Tap". I wish I had kept a copy of the flyer or the ADEV 
plots. Maybe you know?

See, these are all the kinds of things Attila could play with and tell us about 
if he decided to build his own cesium clock ;-)

/tvb

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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Tom,

That's more relevant text. Thanks.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/03/2016 08:34 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

Hi Magnus,

About the high-perf CBT, I wrote: "The difference would be in things like the oven 
temp and detector gain, both of which are controlled outside the tube. My first hint of 
this was in a paper by Carroll Alley."

Since you're curious, let me explain the hint in the paper by Alley [1][2]. He 
says:

"The clocks were modified in order to give the performance needed. Following 
suggestions by Len Cutler and others at Hewlett Packard, we increased the beam current by 
a factor of 2, we added an integrating loop in the crystal control, and there was a 
proprietary modification of the beam tube (now standard on all high performance 
tubes)."

"All in all, we could achieve stabilities over the 15 hours at a couple of parts in 
10^14 with standard commercial clocks, as shown in Figure 29. We paid much attention to 
providing a stable environment for the clocks. Let us look at some pictures to show you 
the equipment and give you some feeling for the experiment."

I hope that answers your question.

/tvb


[1] C.O.Alley, "Proper Time Experiments in Gravitational Fields with Atomic Clocks, Aircraft, 
and Laser Light Pulses" in "Quantum Optics, Experimental Gravity, and Measurement 
Theory".

https://books.google.com/books?id=GLwGCAAAQBAJ
This article / book is behind paywalls. I can send you a PDF off-list. But...


[2] There's papers with about the same content. C.O.Alley, "Introduction to some 
fundamental concepts of general relativity and to their required use in some modern 
timekeeping systems", PTTI, 1981.

And this PDF for this is freely available, from all the usual suspects:

http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1981papers/Vol%2013_37.pdf
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19820012654.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a494262.pdf

The quote above is from page 710.

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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Tom Van Baak]

Hi Magnus,

About the high-perf CBT, I wrote: "The difference would be in things like the 
oven temp and detector gain, both of which are controlled outside the tube. My 
first hint of this was in a paper by Carroll Alley."

Since you're curious, let me explain the hint in the paper by Alley [1][2]. He 
says:

"The clocks were modified in order to give the performance needed. Following 
suggestions by Len Cutler and others at Hewlett Packard, we increased the beam 
current by a factor of 2, we added an integrating loop in the crystal control, 
and there was a proprietary modification of the beam tube (now standard on all 
high performance tubes)."

"All in all, we could achieve stabilities over the 15 hours at a couple of 
parts in 10^14 with standard commercial clocks, as shown in Figure 29. We paid 
much attention to providing a stable environment for the clocks. Let us look at 
some pictures to show you the equipment and give you some feeling for the 
experiment."

I hope that answers your question.

/tvb


[1] C.O.Alley, "Proper Time Experiments in Gravitational Fields with Atomic 
Clocks, Aircraft, and Laser Light Pulses" in "Quantum Optics, Experimental 
Gravity, and Measurement Theory".

https://books.google.com/books?id=GLwGCAAAQBAJ
This article / book is behind paywalls. I can send you a PDF off-list. But...


[2] There's papers with about the same content. C.O.Alley, "Introduction to 
some fundamental concepts of general relativity and to their required use in 
some modern timekeeping systems", PTTI, 1981.

And this PDF for this is freely available, from all the usual suspects:

http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1981papers/Vol%2013_37.pdf
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19820012654.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a494262.pdf

The quote above is from page 710.

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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Tom,

On 11/02/2016 06:23 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

Hi Rick,

That's consistent with what I've seen and heard as well. Most of the 5061B / 
5071A on eBay with dead tubes are opt 001 (high-performance) tubes. The surplus 
units with standard performance tubes are more likely to power up and lock. And 
if they don't, it's probably something simple rather than a dead Cs tube.

I've also heard that the choice of high- vs std-performance is made *after* the 
tube is built. The difference would be in things like the oven temp and 
detector gain, both of which are controlled outside the tube. My first hint of 
this was in a paper by Carroll Alley...

You know the famous 1971 Hafele-Keating experiment with four 5061 cesium clocks 
flying around the world. Several years later, a more precise measurement was 
made by Carroll Alley using better clocks. What I read is that he got Len 
Cutler to hack the 5061A so that its beam current would be higher, thereby 
improving performance for the duration of the experiment. Same tube, just 
different operating parameters.

See page 3 of:
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/publications/measure/pdf/1977_04.pdf


Nice find, except, that's not what it says there.
"I also modified the cesium standards, which already had the new 
high-beam flux tubes, for further improve their performance."


This implicates that the high-beam flux tubes already existed, and that 
he did other tweakings to the clocks.


I'm not disputing that beam-current changes might be completely 
controlled by the resistors rather than being a physical aspect.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 11/2/2016 10:23 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

Hi Rick,



You know the famous 1971 Hafele-Keating experiment with four 5061 cesium clocks 
flying around the world. Several years later, a more precise measurement was 
made by Carroll Alley using better clocks. What I read is that he got Len 
Cutler to hack the 5061A so that its beam current would be higher, thereby 
improving performance for the duration of the experiment. Same tube, just 
different operating parameters.



Never heard that story.  You gotta love it:  a hot rod atomic clock.

Rick
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Attila Kinali]

On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 12:04:41 -0400
"William H. Fite"  wrote:

> I may be missing something (as I often do) but why not just buy some
> cesium? About ten bucks a gram for high-purity metal in glass ampoules.

No, you aren't missing anything. That's what you actually would do
if you were in a undergrad lab and doing atomic spectroscopy experiments
in high vacuum. You use one of these ampoules, put them in the chamber,
evacuate, then break the ampoul to let the caesium out and tad! you
have lots of caesium vapor around to play with.

But with a beam tube you need to get the caesium into the oven assembly.
And that's the hard part. The build up of these ovens is rather simple:
You have a small cavity, in which the caesium is contained. to one side
you have small tubes, all parallel and with very small diameter that
act as a collimator (aka make the atoms that are comming out fly in one
direction only). Unless the oven assembly is made to be opened and refilled,
refilling through these tubes is basically impossible. In case you actually
have the equipment to open up, close again and evacuate a beam tube, you
probably also be able to build a new oven assembly and use that instead.


Attila Kinali
-- 
Malek's Law:
Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Tom Van Baak]

Hi Rick,

That's consistent with what I've seen and heard as well. Most of the 5061B / 
5071A on eBay with dead tubes are opt 001 (high-performance) tubes. The surplus 
units with standard performance tubes are more likely to power up and lock. And 
if they don't, it's probably something simple rather than a dead Cs tube.

I've also heard that the choice of high- vs std-performance is made *after* the 
tube is built. The difference would be in things like the oven temp and 
detector gain, both of which are controlled outside the tube. My first hint of 
this was in a paper by Carroll Alley...

You know the famous 1971 Hafele-Keating experiment with four 5061 cesium clocks 
flying around the world. Several years later, a more precise measurement was 
made by Carroll Alley using better clocks. What I read is that he got Len 
Cutler to hack the 5061A so that its beam current would be higher, thereby 
improving performance for the duration of the experiment. Same tube, just 
different operating parameters.

See page 3 of:
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/publications/measure/pdf/1977_04.pdf

For newcomers to the group, a good introduction to hp and flying clocks is 
here, along with copies of several HPJ articles:

http://www.hpmemoryproject.org/news/flying_clock/celebration_01.htm

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <rich...@karlquist.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?


> This has probably been covered here before, but, at least going
> to the 5071A, now 25 years ago!, all CBT's, whether high
> performance or not, have the same amount of cesium inside.
> This means that the standard performance (never call it
> "low" performance) CBT has enough cesium to last 30 years!
> Thus for those tubes, we can rule out cesium replenishment
> even if it were possible.
> 
> Rick


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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[paul swed]

William thats what I found also. Now you have to get it into the tube.
To the comment on heating. Thats sort of how Frankenstein works 5060 tube
in a 5061. I designed a DC oven controller and run the oven hotter.
I now speculate the reason they ran the ac oven was because DC interferes
as a magnetic field. The signal is noisy but locks always. This tube is so
weak that only through more amplification an external meter and magnifying
glass do I find beam peaks. But they are there. Talk about a pain to tune
for.
By the way to prove that theory I need to build a AC oven controller. Sort
of just haven't gotten there.
??? For really smart folks.
Frankenstein runs slightly fast and I can see this. If the Cesium is hotter
then the  specified temperature I suspect the lines slightly move.
Everything will lock but its not correct.
Is that a reasonable answer?
Thanks
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:04 PM, William H. Fite  wrote:

> I may be missing something (as I often do) but why not just buy some
> cesium? About ten bucks a gram for high-purity metal in glass ampoules.
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2016, Peter Reilley 
> wrote:
>
> > Just throwing this out: would it be possible recover the cesium by
> heating
> > the tube but cooling it near where the reservior is?   This might cause
> the
> > cesium to migrate in that direction and some of it end up in the
> reservior?
> >
> > Pete.
> >
> > On 11/2/2016 11:38 AM, paul swed wrote:
> >
> >> Oh yes and guess which tubes we find? The 40 year olds at ham prices.
> :-)
> >> At least thats what I have.
> >> Like your comment as so far what I have learned is that seems like other
> >> things going on.
> >> I sort of believe its C pollution of things like the ionizer and even
> the
> >> photo tube elements over time. Its a curiosity without much of a way to
> >> prove it.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >> WB8TSL
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
> >> rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> This has probably been covered here before, but, at least going
> >>> to the 5071A, now 25 years ago!, all CBT's, whether high
> >>> performance or not, have the same amount of cesium inside.
> >>> This means that the standard performance (never call it
> >>> "low" performance) CBT has enough cesium to last 30 years!
> >>> Thus for those tubes, we can rule out cesium replenishment
> >>> even if it were possible.
> >>>
> >>> Rick
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 11/1/2016 8:38 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
> >>>
> >>> You mean I can't just drill a hole in,  wash out the old cesium with
> some
>  tap water ;-),  toss in some new cesium, suck out the air,  bung a
> cork
>  in
>  the hole, and call it a day?   Drat! foiled again...
> 
>  ---
> 
>  Because it's not that easy. We are talking about a high vacuum system
> 
> > here.
> >
> > ___
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> --
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[William H. Fite]

I may be missing something (as I often do) but why not just buy some
cesium? About ten bucks a gram for high-purity metal in glass ampoules.


On Wednesday, November 2, 2016, Peter Reilley 
wrote:

> Just throwing this out: would it be possible recover the cesium by heating
> the tube but cooling it near where the reservior is?   This might cause the
> cesium to migrate in that direction and some of it end up in the reservior?
>
> Pete.
>
> On 11/2/2016 11:38 AM, paul swed wrote:
>
>> Oh yes and guess which tubes we find? The 40 year olds at ham prices. :-)
>> At least thats what I have.
>> Like your comment as so far what I have learned is that seems like other
>> things going on.
>> I sort of believe its C pollution of things like the ionizer and even the
>> photo tube elements over time. Its a curiosity without much of a way to
>> prove it.
>>
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
>> rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:
>>
>> This has probably been covered here before, but, at least going
>>> to the 5071A, now 25 years ago!, all CBT's, whether high
>>> performance or not, have the same amount of cesium inside.
>>> This means that the standard performance (never call it
>>> "low" performance) CBT has enough cesium to last 30 years!
>>> Thus for those tubes, we can rule out cesium replenishment
>>> even if it were possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/1/2016 8:38 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
>>>
>>> You mean I can't just drill a hole in,  wash out the old cesium with some
 tap water ;-),  toss in some new cesium, suck out the air,  bung a cork
 in
 the hole, and call it a day?   Drat! foiled again...

 ---

 Because it's not that easy. We are talking about a high vacuum system

> here.
>
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 ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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 ___

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-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Peter Reilley]

Just throwing this out: would it be possible recover the cesium by heating
the tube but cooling it near where the reservior is?   This might cause the
cesium to migrate in that direction and some of it end up in the reservior?

Pete.

On 11/2/2016 11:38 AM, paul swed wrote:

Oh yes and guess which tubes we find? The 40 year olds at ham prices. :-)
At least thats what I have.
Like your comment as so far what I have learned is that seems like other
things going on.
I sort of believe its C pollution of things like the ionizer and even the
photo tube elements over time. Its a curiosity without much of a way to
prove it.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:


This has probably been covered here before, but, at least going
to the 5071A, now 25 years ago!, all CBT's, whether high
performance or not, have the same amount of cesium inside.
This means that the standard performance (never call it
"low" performance) CBT has enough cesium to last 30 years!
Thus for those tubes, we can rule out cesium replenishment
even if it were possible.

Rick


On 11/1/2016 8:38 PM, Mark Sims wrote:


You mean I can't just drill a hole in,  wash out the old cesium with some
tap water ;-),  toss in some new cesium, suck out the air,  bung a cork in
the hole, and call it a day?   Drat! foiled again...

---

Because it's not that easy. We are talking about a high vacuum system

here.


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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Bert Kehren via time-nuts]

30 years that is remarkable glad I have such a tube in my 5061B
 
 
In a message dated 11/2/2016 10:53:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
rich...@karlquist.com writes:

This has  probably been covered here before, but, at least going
to the 5071A, now 25  years ago!, all CBT's, whether high
performance or not, have the same  amount of cesium inside.
This means that the standard performance (never  call it
"low" performance) CBT has enough cesium to last 30 years!
Thus  for those tubes, we can rule out cesium replenishment
even if it were  possible.

Rick

On 11/1/2016 8:38 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
>  You mean I can't just drill a hole in,  wash out the old cesium with 
some  tap water ;-),  toss in some new cesium, suck out the air,  bung a  cork 
in the hole, and call it a day?   Drat! foiled  again...
>
> ---
>
>> Because it's not  that easy. We are talking about a high vacuum system 
here.
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[paul swed]

Oh yes and guess which tubes we find? The 40 year olds at ham prices. :-)
At least thats what I have.
Like your comment as so far what I have learned is that seems like other
things going on.
I sort of believe its C pollution of things like the ionizer and even the
photo tube elements over time. Its a curiosity without much of a way to
prove it.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:

> This has probably been covered here before, but, at least going
> to the 5071A, now 25 years ago!, all CBT's, whether high
> performance or not, have the same amount of cesium inside.
> This means that the standard performance (never call it
> "low" performance) CBT has enough cesium to last 30 years!
> Thus for those tubes, we can rule out cesium replenishment
> even if it were possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
> On 11/1/2016 8:38 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
>
>> You mean I can't just drill a hole in,  wash out the old cesium with some
>> tap water ;-),  toss in some new cesium, suck out the air,  bung a cork in
>> the hole, and call it a day?   Drat! foiled again...
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Because it's not that easy. We are talking about a high vacuum system
>>> here.
>>>
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

This has probably been covered here before, but, at least going
to the 5071A, now 25 years ago!, all CBT's, whether high
performance or not, have the same amount of cesium inside.
This means that the standard performance (never call it
"low" performance) CBT has enough cesium to last 30 years!
Thus for those tubes, we can rule out cesium replenishment
even if it were possible.

Rick

On 11/1/2016 8:38 PM, Mark Sims wrote:

You mean I can't just drill a hole in,  wash out the old cesium with some tap 
water ;-),  toss in some new cesium, suck out the air,  bung a cork in the 
hole, and call it a day?   Drat! foiled again...

---


Because it's not that easy. We are talking about a high vacuum system here.

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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[paul swed]

Wel you know we all love to talk of details. But crazy stuff happens
when you try.
As mentioned you would dirty everything up. But waiting a year to de-gas
etc well what the heck.
I was looking at the pix of the ampule nothing is clear to me at least as
to how you even would insert some new C's. Just curiosity.

Other thing you can actually buy the cesium stuff online and it wasn't that
expensive. Granted quality?
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 11:38 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:

> You mean I can't just drill a hole in,  wash out the old cesium with some
> tap water ;-),  toss in some new cesium, suck out the air,  bung a cork in
> the hole, and call it a day?   Drat! foiled again...
>
> ---
>
> > Because it's not that easy. We are talking about a high vacuum system
> here.
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[time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Mark Sims]

You mean I can't just drill a hole in,  wash out the old cesium with some tap 
water ;-),  toss in some new cesium, suck out the air,  bung a cork in the 
hole, and call it a day?   Drat! foiled again...

---

> Because it's not that easy. We are talking about a high vacuum system here.
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <20161101115121.998d1e1b073c5a9d1658b...@kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali 
writes:

>It would be possible to make the tube such that you could change the
>"consumables". 

Wasn't PTB's long Cs advertised on them being able to replenish the
Cs reservoir while it was running ?

-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Quite literally 10’s of millions of dollars (back in the good old days) was
put into the idea of a rebuildable Cs tube or rebuilding ones that already
exist. The result was more people in the tube business for a while. They
never did come up with a rebuildable tube or a salvage process. Since the
“prize” was a few hundred million (US government refurbishments over 
years and years) if it worked, economics was not the issue.

Bob

> On Nov 1, 2016, at 6:51 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 14:50:51 -0700
> ed breya  wrote:
> 
>> It's a shame that they're not built in such a way that just the wear-out 
>> parts could be replaced, and not wasting all the rest of the design and 
>> craftsmanship that's probably just fine.
> 
> Because it's not that easy. We are talking about a high vacuum system
> here. While you can get a vacuum tube working with a simple rotary
> pump. You can even have something like an ion pump to make the vacuum
> a bit cleaner and make it perform better. But this will not work with
> the level of vacuum you need for a Cs standard. A small finger print
> left somewhere on something, will outgas for many months and make
> the whole system perform an order of magnitude or two worse than speced.
> 
> Yes, Cs beam standards are not as finicky as the modern Cs fountains
> or even worse the optical clocks, but they are still very sensitive.
> 
> It would be possible to make the tube such that you could change the
> "consumables". But it would still take a skilled technician in a clean
> lab with special equipment to do the maintenance. But I am not sure
> whether it would be that much cheaper than a new tube. And you always
> have the risk that something goes wrong and you have the scrap the
> tube for good. 
> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

I remember when they made tubes in Santa Clara, they
would assemble them and do some tests without breaking
the Cs ampule.  A fair percentage would fail and would
go to a machinist using a big lathe to cut
them open to be rebuilt.  It was very important that
the Cs had not been released yet.

Rick
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Attila Kinali]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 14:50:51 -0700
ed breya  wrote:

> It's a shame that they're not built in such a way that just the wear-out 
> parts could be replaced, and not wasting all the rest of the design and 
> craftsmanship that's probably just fine.

Because it's not that easy. We are talking about a high vacuum system
here. While you can get a vacuum tube working with a simple rotary
pump. You can even have something like an ion pump to make the vacuum
a bit cleaner and make it perform better. But this will not work with
the level of vacuum you need for a Cs standard. A small finger print
left somewhere on something, will outgas for many months and make
the whole system perform an order of magnitude or two worse than speced.

Yes, Cs beam standards are not as finicky as the modern Cs fountains
or even worse the optical clocks, but they are still very sensitive.

It would be possible to make the tube such that you could change the
"consumables". But it would still take a skilled technician in a clean
lab with special equipment to do the maintenance. But I am not sure
whether it would be that much cheaper than a new tube. And you always
have the risk that something goes wrong and you have the scrap the
tube for good. 


Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[paul swed]

All of those places are pretty much gone.
The last place locally in Milford Ma fell apart literally after the person
that knew anything passed away.
The last thing they were rebuilding and could make money at were tubes for
fighter air craft sold as surplus.
I was lucky to see the place and parts before the building was destroyed.
It was a dangerous building in a lot of respects.

Various old new glass supplies and such still in the stock rooms. Chemicals
and more.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 8:57 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:

> Rebuilding TV CRTs used to be quite common.   Slice neck off tube,
> "re-gun",  melt neck back on,  suck out air, profit!.   A few years back I
> found a place that would re-gun (or attempt to) the CRT from an HP9100A
> calculator.
>
> 
>
> >  The only "rebuildable" (vacuum) tubes I've seen are things like very
> high power transmitting tubes, high voltage rectifiers, and high power
> ignitrons or mercury arc rectifiers.
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[paul swed]

Skip
I added the pix to your fine commentary. Plus Toms pix. But its now a 3MB
file. Yes above the oven is the first state selector magnet. Never ever
thought I would see this clarity and level of detail. Not sure there is any
way to see the photo multiplier. I believe that would be a set of elements
that were in the same vacuum as the rest of the tub. Some place close to
the ionizer. I know what normal photo multipliers look like but suspect
this will not look like those.
Thanks for making my day. Now I know how to work on Frankenstein's brain.
Well maybe not right now.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 7:41 PM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 10/31/16 3:28 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
>
>> The ghost of Jack Kusters is now spinning in his grave on
>> this Halloween night.  Jack was a fairly opinionated
>> guy and it didn't take much to get him excited.
>>
>> Jack used to rail against people who asked this naive
>> question.  There are any number of reasons why this
>> doesn't make sense.  One major one is that everything
>> in the tube is thoroughly "cesiated" as Jack put it.
>> Another is:  how do you determine which parts to replace?
>> Another is:  is this economically feasible?
>>
>>
>
> This is a classic question on small volume manufacturing (which I'm sure
> these tubes are)..
>
> The only "rebuildable" (vacuum) tubes I've seen are things like very high
> power transmitting tubes, high voltage rectifiers, and high power ignitrons
> or mercury arc rectifiers.   All in the "hundreds of kV" or "hundreds of
> kW" kind of range.  I think they can rebuild smaller transmitting tubes
> (10-20 kW), too.
>
> I've seen a  1930s-40s era Cockroft Walton generator with not just
> rebuildable rectifiers, but it's not even sealed: you run the (diffusion)
> vacuum pump when you're operating it.   The other things are not exactly a
> tube, but things like pelletrons, dynamitrons, and febetrons also tend to
> have a vacuum pump associated with them.
>
> In this case, there are "user serviceable" parts inside - either because
> they're mechanical devices, or because there's a fairly high probability of
> internal localized and repairable damage from a flashover.
>
>
>
>
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[time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Mark Sims]

Rebuilding TV CRTs used to be quite common.   Slice neck off tube,  "re-gun",  
melt neck back on,  suck out air, profit!.   A few years back I found a place 
that would re-gun (or attempt to) the CRT from an HP9100A calculator.



>  The only "rebuildable" (vacuum) tubes I've seen are things like very 
high power transmitting tubes, high voltage rectifiers, and high power 
ignitrons or mercury arc rectifiers.
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[jimlux]

On 10/31/16 3:28 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

The ghost of Jack Kusters is now spinning in his grave on
this Halloween night.  Jack was a fairly opinionated
guy and it didn't take much to get him excited.

Jack used to rail against people who asked this naive
question.  There are any number of reasons why this
doesn't make sense.  One major one is that everything
in the tube is thoroughly "cesiated" as Jack put it.
Another is:  how do you determine which parts to replace?
Another is:  is this economically feasible?




This is a classic question on small volume manufacturing (which I'm sure 
these tubes are)..


The only "rebuildable" (vacuum) tubes I've seen are things like very 
high power transmitting tubes, high voltage rectifiers, and high power 
ignitrons or mercury arc rectifiers.   All in the "hundreds of kV" or 
"hundreds of kW" kind of range.  I think they can rebuild smaller 
transmitting tubes (10-20 kW), too.


I've seen a  1930s-40s era Cockroft Walton generator with not just 
rebuildable rectifiers, but it's not even sealed: you run the 
(diffusion) vacuum pump when you're operating it.   The other things are 
not exactly a tube, but things like pelletrons, dynamitrons, and 
febetrons also tend to have a vacuum pump associated with them.


In this case, there are "user serviceable" parts inside - either because 
they're mechanical devices, or because there's a fairly high probability 
of internal localized and repairable damage from a flashover.




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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Tom Van Baak]

More eye candy for the cesium nuts -- the center of a cesium beam tube is the 
large copper Ramsey microwave cavity. Each generation of cesium standard uses a 
different design. The 5 specimens seen here came from Corby Dawson, who's 
probably hacked open more Cs tubes than all of us put together.

http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/cesium-tube-ramsey-cavity-collection.jpg



So, Skip, if you have the time, break open another dead tube and keep removing 
layers until you expose the copper cavity itself. 



The first commercial cesium standard was the Atomichron, made by the National 
Company in the late 50's. It's 10x larger than a 5061A. Some photos here, 
including visible parts of the monster beam tube:

http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/nc2001/
http://www.ieee-uffc.org/main/history-atomichron.asp

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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

The ghost of Jack Kusters is now spinning in his grave on
this Halloween night.  Jack was a fairly opinionated
guy and it didn't take much to get him excited.

Jack used to rail against people who asked this naive
question.  There are any number of reasons why this
doesn't make sense.  One major one is that everything
in the tube is thoroughly "cesiated" as Jack put it.
Another is:  how do you determine which parts to replace?
Another is:  is this economically feasible?

Rick
N6RK

On 10/31/2016 2:50 PM, ed breya wrote:


It's a shame that they're not built in such a way that just the wear-out
parts could be replaced, and not wasting all the rest of the design and
craftsmanship that's probably just fine.

Ed
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[paul swed]

Skip,
Really great pictures that have lots of clean detail. Thanks for sharing
with us. I can see that many of the wires would be a challenge to deal with.
But I will guess the ionizer was the issue on this tube also.
Thanks for sharing.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:

> I used to have a whole set of photos on my web site of the inside of the
> 5071A Cs tube, taken during a tour of the Santa Clara production facility.
> Sadly, I was asked to take the page down. But Skip is ok because his photos
> are of a Cs tube one or two generations older. Thanks for posting those.
>
> Your photos are a welcome alternative to these:
>
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JuleDYM54nE/U7I-i9wzrSI/
> AIk/QtRO7ngBgjU/s1600/clip_image040.gif
> http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/images/services-services/time-
> heure/faq_time_cesiumclockinside_small.jpg
> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XRWlDCgNVXg/maxresdefault.jpg
>
> Although. you have to admit the first one has a certain charm.
>
> Here's the inside of the original cesium bean tube:
> http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/essen/
>
> /tvb
>
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <67092a4fd8045729d0aa463bd288f...@blackfoot.net>, djl writes:

>Echo, Magnus. Thanks, Skip!  Easy now to see the incredible expense of 
>building one of these! Kinda Kludgy; Love the s/s spot welded keepers on 
>the screw heads, e.g.

I don't think they're keepers.  I think they there to contain any metalic
dust or particles from the act of screwing the screw in.

>My really dumb question is, why isn't there Cs plated on everything? 

Because Cs is incredibly reactive and sticks to the strategically placed
getters.

-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[ed breya]

Wow. Nice job of dissection, and good pictures - very informative. No 
wonder those things are so expensive.


It's a shame that they're not built in such a way that just the wear-out 
parts could be replaced, and not wasting all the rest of the design and 
craftsmanship that's probably just fine.


Ed
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[djl]

Echo, Magnus. Thanks, Skip!  Easy now to see the incredible expense of 
building one of these! Kinda Kludgy; Love the s/s spot welded keepers on 
the screw heads, e.g.
My really dumb question is, why isn't there Cs plated on everything? Or 
is the Cs contained in the rf cavity only? I think I see a window on one 
end...

Thanks again, Don

On 2016-10-31 15:20, Magnus Danielson wrote:

Hi Skip,

Many thanks for taking the effort and describing what we see.
Good thing to tinker around with, if you have one. Good conversation 
piece. :)


Cheers,
Magnus

On 10/31/2016 09:54 PM, Skip Withrow wrote:

Hello Time-Nuts,



I recently acquired a stock of dead cesium beam tubes, and my 
curiosity got
the best of me, so I have cut one open.  After watching lots of 
YouTube
video of burning and exploding cesium I was a little leery at first. 
The
first step was to make a very small hole just to let a small amount of 
air
in, no flames or heat so I let it sit for a while for any reactions 
with
air to take their course.  Next I proceeded to cut off the ends, and 
after

that the bottom of the unit, finally I trimmed the top off as far as I
could.  Pictures are linked below for your enjoyment.  I have attached 
two

of the before and after at low resolution.



1. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube1.jpg



This is the before picture of a tube (not the actual one opened).  It 
is HP
part number 05061-6077.  The band around the center of the tube is a 
mu

metal shield that is removed by removing the screws along the seam.
Unfortunately
11 of the 14 tubes that I received had the cables cut as shown 
(ouch!).




2. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube2.jpg



This is a shot of the deconstructed tube.  The cesium oven is on the 
left,

the microwave cavity is in the center (under a metal cover), and the
detector is on the right.



3. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube3.jpg



This is the oven end of the tube.  The oven (with the cesium) is the 
copper
vessel.  The ion trap assembly is at the top (with magnet).  The first 
beam
magnet is between the oven and the microwave cavity.  One thing that I 
can
say is that HP brought the art of spot welding to a new level.  Note 
the

stainless steel strips welded over the screw heads (and lots of other
things).



4. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube4.jpg



This is the detector end of the tube.  I believe the hot wire ionizer 
is
the broken metal strip.  The electron multiplier/detector is in the 
metal
box above it.  The second beam magnet sits between the microwave 
cavity and

the electronics at this end of the tube.  I don’t think I broke the
filament, this was probably the failure mode of this tube.  Also note 
that

all the wiring insulation is ceramic tubing, since insulation that out
gasses in vacuum is a no-no.



5. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube5.jpg



This is the bottom view of the tube for completeness.  I have not yet
removed the cover that is over the microwave cavity (and has the 
C-field

coil around it).



6. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube6.jpg



This is the top of the tube with the potting compound removed.  I was
surprised to find a couple of embedded resistors.  I guess the good 
news is
that it would be easy enough to remove the potting and solder on new 
wires

if deemed useful.



7. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube7.jpg



This is just a close-up of the broken hot wire ionizer (and all the 
spot

welds).



8. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube8.jpg



This is a close-up of the ion trap where the +3500V connects.  I’m not 
a
physics expert, but didn’t think about a magnet being involved.  I 
don’t

think any of the drawings that I have seen have ever mentioned it.



So, enjoy.  I will most likely be throwing the rest of the tubes up on 
ebay
at some point.  If there is strong interest in having them cut open 
first
please let me know.  I intend to cut up some wood to make an 
appropriate

stand and add this one to my tube collection.



Sorry for the long post, but I hope you found it informative.

Regards,

Skip Withrow



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--
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VOX: 406-626-4304

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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Hal Murray]

> To enjoy the links, replace CS-tube with CS_tube in the links.

Worked for me without the edit and didn't work with that change.

(Skip may have fixed the web site names?  Or maybe there is something 
interesting going on.)

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Clint Jay]

There's a sectioned Cs tube at the science museum in London,  sadly I can't
see the pics you link to but I'd be interested to see if they're the same
as that exhibit (I think I have a picture somewhere)

On 31 Oct 2016 20:54, "Skip Withrow"  wrote:

> Hello Time-Nuts,
>
>
>
> I recently acquired a stock of dead cesium beam tubes, and my curiosity got
> the best of me, so I have cut one open.  After watching lots of YouTube
> video of burning and exploding cesium I was a little leery at first. The
> first step was to make a very small hole just to let a small amount of air
> in, no flames or heat so I let it sit for a while for any reactions with
> air to take their course.  Next I proceeded to cut off the ends, and after
> that the bottom of the unit, finally I trimmed the top off as far as I
> could.  Pictures are linked below for your enjoyment.  I have attached two
> of the before and after at low resolution.
>
>
>
> 1. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube1.jpg
>
>
>
> This is the before picture of a tube (not the actual one opened).  It is HP
> part number 05061-6077.  The band around the center of the tube is a mu
> metal shield that is removed by removing the screws along the seam.
> Unfortunately
> 11 of the 14 tubes that I received had the cables cut as shown (ouch!).
>
>
>
> 2. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube2.jpg
>
>
>
> This is a shot of the deconstructed tube.  The cesium oven is on the left,
> the microwave cavity is in the center (under a metal cover), and the
> detector is on the right.
>
>
>
> 3. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube3.jpg
>
>
>
> This is the oven end of the tube.  The oven (with the cesium) is the copper
> vessel.  The ion trap assembly is at the top (with magnet).  The first beam
> magnet is between the oven and the microwave cavity.  One thing that I can
> say is that HP brought the art of spot welding to a new level.  Note the
> stainless steel strips welded over the screw heads (and lots of other
> things).
>
>
>
> 4. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube4.jpg
>
>
>
> This is the detector end of the tube.  I believe the hot wire ionizer is
> the broken metal strip.  The electron multiplier/detector is in the metal
> box above it.  The second beam magnet sits between the microwave cavity and
> the electronics at this end of the tube.  I don’t think I broke the
> filament, this was probably the failure mode of this tube.  Also note that
> all the wiring insulation is ceramic tubing, since insulation that out
> gasses in vacuum is a no-no.
>
>
>
> 5. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube5.jpg
>
>
>
> This is the bottom view of the tube for completeness.  I have not yet
> removed the cover that is over the microwave cavity (and has the C-field
> coil around it).
>
>
>
> 6. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube6.jpg
>
>
>
> This is the top of the tube with the potting compound removed.  I was
> surprised to find a couple of embedded resistors.  I guess the good news is
> that it would be easy enough to remove the potting and solder on new wires
> if deemed useful.
>
>
>
> 7. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube7.jpg
>
>
>
> This is just a close-up of the broken hot wire ionizer (and all the spot
> welds).
>
>
>
> 8. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube8.jpg
>
>
>
> This is a close-up of the ion trap where the +3500V connects.  I’m not a
> physics expert, but didn’t think about a magnet being involved.  I don’t
> think any of the drawings that I have seen have ever mentioned it.
>
>
>
> So, enjoy.  I will most likely be throwing the rest of the tubes up on ebay
> at some point.  If there is strong interest in having them cut open first
> please let me know.  I intend to cut up some wood to make an appropriate
> stand and add this one to my tube collection.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the long post, but I hope you found it informative.
>
> Regards,
>
> Skip Withrow
>
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Skip,

Many thanks for taking the effort and describing what we see.
Good thing to tinker around with, if you have one. Good conversation 
piece. :)


Cheers,
Magnus

On 10/31/2016 09:54 PM, Skip Withrow wrote:

Hello Time-Nuts,



I recently acquired a stock of dead cesium beam tubes, and my curiosity got
the best of me, so I have cut one open.  After watching lots of YouTube
video of burning and exploding cesium I was a little leery at first. The
first step was to make a very small hole just to let a small amount of air
in, no flames or heat so I let it sit for a while for any reactions with
air to take their course.  Next I proceeded to cut off the ends, and after
that the bottom of the unit, finally I trimmed the top off as far as I
could.  Pictures are linked below for your enjoyment.  I have attached two
of the before and after at low resolution.



1. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube1.jpg



This is the before picture of a tube (not the actual one opened).  It is HP
part number 05061-6077.  The band around the center of the tube is a mu
metal shield that is removed by removing the screws along the seam.
Unfortunately
11 of the 14 tubes that I received had the cables cut as shown (ouch!).



2. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube2.jpg



This is a shot of the deconstructed tube.  The cesium oven is on the left,
the microwave cavity is in the center (under a metal cover), and the
detector is on the right.



3. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube3.jpg



This is the oven end of the tube.  The oven (with the cesium) is the copper
vessel.  The ion trap assembly is at the top (with magnet).  The first beam
magnet is between the oven and the microwave cavity.  One thing that I can
say is that HP brought the art of spot welding to a new level.  Note the
stainless steel strips welded over the screw heads (and lots of other
things).



4. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube4.jpg



This is the detector end of the tube.  I believe the hot wire ionizer is
the broken metal strip.  The electron multiplier/detector is in the metal
box above it.  The second beam magnet sits between the microwave cavity and
the electronics at this end of the tube.  I don’t think I broke the
filament, this was probably the failure mode of this tube.  Also note that
all the wiring insulation is ceramic tubing, since insulation that out
gasses in vacuum is a no-no.



5. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube5.jpg



This is the bottom view of the tube for completeness.  I have not yet
removed the cover that is over the microwave cavity (and has the C-field
coil around it).



6. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube6.jpg



This is the top of the tube with the potting compound removed.  I was
surprised to find a couple of embedded resistors.  I guess the good news is
that it would be easy enough to remove the potting and solder on new wires
if deemed useful.



7. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube7.jpg



This is just a close-up of the broken hot wire ionizer (and all the spot
welds).



8. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube8.jpg



This is a close-up of the ion trap where the +3500V connects.  I’m not a
physics expert, but didn’t think about a magnet being involved.  I don’t
think any of the drawings that I have seen have ever mentioned it.



So, enjoy.  I will most likely be throwing the rest of the tubes up on ebay
at some point.  If there is strong interest in having them cut open first
please let me know.  I intend to cut up some wood to make an appropriate
stand and add this one to my tube collection.



Sorry for the long post, but I hope you found it informative.

Regards,

Skip Withrow



___
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

To enjoy the links, replace CS-tube with CS_tube in the links.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 10/31/2016 09:54 PM, Skip Withrow wrote:

Hello Time-Nuts,



I recently acquired a stock of dead cesium beam tubes, and my curiosity got
the best of me, so I have cut one open.  After watching lots of YouTube
video of burning and exploding cesium I was a little leery at first. The
first step was to make a very small hole just to let a small amount of air
in, no flames or heat so I let it sit for a while for any reactions with
air to take their course.  Next I proceeded to cut off the ends, and after
that the bottom of the unit, finally I trimmed the top off as far as I
could.  Pictures are linked below for your enjoyment.  I have attached two
of the before and after at low resolution.



1. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube1.jpg



This is the before picture of a tube (not the actual one opened).  It is HP
part number 05061-6077.  The band around the center of the tube is a mu
metal shield that is removed by removing the screws along the seam.
Unfortunately
11 of the 14 tubes that I received had the cables cut as shown (ouch!).



2. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube2.jpg



This is a shot of the deconstructed tube.  The cesium oven is on the left,
the microwave cavity is in the center (under a metal cover), and the
detector is on the right.



3. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube3.jpg



This is the oven end of the tube.  The oven (with the cesium) is the copper
vessel.  The ion trap assembly is at the top (with magnet).  The first beam
magnet is between the oven and the microwave cavity.  One thing that I can
say is that HP brought the art of spot welding to a new level.  Note the
stainless steel strips welded over the screw heads (and lots of other
things).



4. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube4.jpg



This is the detector end of the tube.  I believe the hot wire ionizer is
the broken metal strip.  The electron multiplier/detector is in the metal
box above it.  The second beam magnet sits between the microwave cavity and
the electronics at this end of the tube.  I don’t think I broke the
filament, this was probably the failure mode of this tube.  Also note that
all the wiring insulation is ceramic tubing, since insulation that out
gasses in vacuum is a no-no.



5. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube5.jpg



This is the bottom view of the tube for completeness.  I have not yet
removed the cover that is over the microwave cavity (and has the C-field
coil around it).



6. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube6.jpg



This is the top of the tube with the potting compound removed.  I was
surprised to find a couple of embedded resistors.  I guess the good news is
that it would be easy enough to remove the potting and solder on new wires
if deemed useful.



7. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube7.jpg



This is just a close-up of the broken hot wire ionizer (and all the spot
welds).



8. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube8.jpg



This is a close-up of the ion trap where the +3500V connects.  I’m not a
physics expert, but didn’t think about a magnet being involved.  I don’t
think any of the drawings that I have seen have ever mentioned it.



So, enjoy.  I will most likely be throwing the rest of the tubes up on ebay
at some point.  If there is strong interest in having them cut open first
please let me know.  I intend to cut up some wood to make an appropriate
stand and add this one to my tube collection.



Sorry for the long post, but I hope you found it informative.

Regards,

Skip Withrow



___
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Skip Withrow]

Hello Time-Nuts,



I recently acquired a stock of dead cesium beam tubes, and my curiosity got
the best of me, so I have cut one open.  After watching lots of YouTube
video of burning and exploding cesium I was a little leery at first. The
first step was to make a very small hole just to let a small amount of air
in, no flames or heat so I let it sit for a while for any reactions with
air to take their course.  Next I proceeded to cut off the ends, and after
that the bottom of the unit, finally I trimmed the top off as far as I
could.  Pictures are linked below for your enjoyment.  I have attached two
of the before and after at low resolution.



1. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube1.jpg



This is the before picture of a tube (not the actual one opened).  It is HP
part number 05061-6077.  The band around the center of the tube is a mu
metal shield that is removed by removing the screws along the seam.
Unfortunately
11 of the 14 tubes that I received had the cables cut as shown (ouch!).



2. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube2.jpg



This is a shot of the deconstructed tube.  The cesium oven is on the left,
the microwave cavity is in the center (under a metal cover), and the
detector is on the right.



3. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube3.jpg



This is the oven end of the tube.  The oven (with the cesium) is the copper
vessel.  The ion trap assembly is at the top (with magnet).  The first beam
magnet is between the oven and the microwave cavity.  One thing that I can
say is that HP brought the art of spot welding to a new level.  Note the
stainless steel strips welded over the screw heads (and lots of other
things).



4. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube4.jpg



This is the detector end of the tube.  I believe the hot wire ionizer is
the broken metal strip.  The electron multiplier/detector is in the metal
box above it.  The second beam magnet sits between the microwave cavity and
the electronics at this end of the tube.  I don’t think I broke the
filament, this was probably the failure mode of this tube.  Also note that
all the wiring insulation is ceramic tubing, since insulation that out
gasses in vacuum is a no-no.



5. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube5.jpg



This is the bottom view of the tube for completeness.  I have not yet
removed the cover that is over the microwave cavity (and has the C-field
coil around it).



6. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube6.jpg



This is the top of the tube with the potting compound removed.  I was
surprised to find a couple of embedded resistors.  I guess the good news is
that it would be easy enough to remove the potting and solder on new wires
if deemed useful.



7. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube7.jpg



This is just a close-up of the broken hot wire ionizer (and all the spot
welds).



8. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube8.jpg



This is a close-up of the ion trap where the +3500V connects.  I’m not a
physics expert, but didn’t think about a magnet being involved.  I don’t
think any of the drawings that I have seen have ever mentioned it.



So, enjoy.  I will most likely be throwing the rest of the tubes up on ebay
at some point.  If there is strong interest in having them cut open first
please let me know.  I intend to cut up some wood to make an appropriate
stand and add this one to my tube collection.



Sorry for the long post, but I hope you found it informative.

Regards,

Skip Withrow
___
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