Re: [time-nuts] BNC Question

2011-04-16 Thread Oz-in-DFW


On 4/16/2011 2:59 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:
 As pointed out earlier (by Bruce and others), there is a vast quantity of 75 
 ohm BNC connectors which mate perfectly with 50 ohm BNC sockets (save for 
 impedance mismatch). I have a set of 10 cables bought off the *bay with such 
 connectors. These cables are 75 ohm, so there will be a mismatch in a 50 ohm 
 system no matter what the connector is.
No doubt, but I think you'll also find these are the Amphenol
proprietary parts - which will damage the MIL-STD 75 ohm parts that HP
and a lot of other vendors used for a long time, just damaged less
frequently. 
 I am not sure what would make those less *true* that anything else.
Strictly speaking, BNC, TNC, and N are rooted in MIL-STDs from the
fourties, the other stuff intermates and has improvements of varying
nature.  This gets into detailed semantics.  Are the cheapie import
connectors that can't sweep past 100 Mhz Ns or something else? They
intermate, but they don't work so well.
  I am sure the mismatch of the connectors themselves, within the frequency 
 range they are intended for will be well below the level where most would 
 care.
Right, but the issue was intermating and damaging one type with another
and poor mating reliability.   The fact is that there ARE BNC (and N and
TNC) variants that will have this problem.  There are a number of folks
here who have flatly stated that this is not the case, but it really is. 
 If you try to use BNC for precision RF measurements, be prepared to be 
 surprised.
BNCs can be as good as TNCs when properly applied, but the bayonet
mechanism allows too much mechanical alignment play for reasonable
reliability past a GHz or so.  If they are properly installed and the
cable is not allowed to put a radial or significant tensile load they
perform as well as a TNC and close to an N.  For all that, I won't use
them in designs above 100 Mhz without a compelling reason.  F's are
cheaper, and SMAs are more reliable.  If it's hard coded at 75 ohms and
related to measuremnts - I use Ns.
 Unless the argument is about what they should be, what the standard says is 
 irrelevant when you have a box of parts and wonder if you can used them.
I think we're in 'violent agreement' here.  My point is that you need to
be aware of the many variations of connectors that have appeared in the
last 50+ years and use care lest you end up with an undesired repair. 
 Don't assume anything, just check before you plug.
And this is the point.  There *are* connectors that will not reliably
intermate and will be damaged.  This is true in BNC as well as N and TNC. 
 Didier KO4BB
  

-- 
mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167 
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 





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Re: [time-nuts] BNC Question

2011-04-16 Thread Chuck Harris

HP made a point of telling users that the 75 ohm female BNC connectors used
on HP equipment were fully and safely mate-able with standard male 50 ohm
parts.  This has been so certainly from the 1970's.  Casual inspection of
the part shows that it uses the identical center pin set as the 50 ohm
parts.

-Chuck Harris

Oz-in-DFW wrote:



On 4/16/2011 2:59 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

As pointed out earlier (by Bruce and others), there is a vast quantity of 75 ohm
BNC connectors which mate perfectly with 50 ohm BNC sockets (save for impedance
mismatch). I have a set of 10 cables bought off the *bay with such connectors.
These cables are 75 ohm, so there will be a mismatch in a 50 ohm system no
matter what the connector is.

No doubt, but I think you'll also find these are the Amphenol proprietary parts 
-
which will damage the MIL-STD 75 ohm parts that HP and a lot of other vendors 
used
for a long time, just damaged less frequently.

I am not sure what would make those less *true* that anything else.

Strictly speaking, BNC, TNC, and N are rooted in MIL-STDs from the fourties, the
other stuff intermates and has improvements of varying nature.  This gets into
detailed semantics.  Are the cheapie import connectors that can't sweep past 100
Mhz Ns or something else? They intermate, but they don't work so well.

I am sure the mismatch of the connectors themselves, within the frequency range
they are intended for will be well below the level where most would care.

Right, but the issue was intermating and damaging one type with another and poor
mating reliability.   The fact is that there ARE BNC (and N and TNC) variants 
that
will have this problem.  There are a number of folks here who have flatly stated
that this is not the case, but it really is.

If you try to use BNC for precision RF measurements, be prepared to be
surprised.

BNCs can be as good as TNCs when properly applied, but the bayonet mechanism
allows too much mechanical alignment play for reasonable reliability past a GHz 
or
so.  If they are properly installed and the cable is not allowed to put a radial
or significant tensile load they perform as well as a TNC and close to an N.  
For
all that, I won't use them in designs above 100 Mhz without a compelling reason.
F's are cheaper, and SMAs are more reliable.  If it's hard coded at 75 ohms and
related to measuremnts - I use Ns.

Unless the argument is about what they should be, what the standard says is
irrelevant when you have a box of parts and wonder if you can used them.

I think we're in 'violent agreement' here.  My point is that you need to be 
aware
of the many variations of connectors that have appeared in the last 50+ years 
and
use care lest you end up with an undesired repair.

Don't assume anything, just check before you plug.

And this is the point.  There *are* connectors that will not reliably intermate
and will be damaged.  This is true in BNC as well as N and TNC.

Didier KO4BB





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[time-nuts] BNC Question

2011-04-16 Thread Brucekareen
An Amphenol document discussing the mating compatibility of their 50-ohm  
and 75-ohm BNC connectors can be found here 
_http://www.amphenolrf.com/products/bnc.asp?N=0sid=46B11E806D75617F_ 
(http://www.amphenolrf.com/products/bnc.asp?N=0sid=46B11E806D75617F)  .
 
Bruce, KG6OJI
 
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Re: [time-nuts] BNC Question

2011-04-16 Thread Rick Karlquist
Oz-in-DFW wrote:

 BNCs can be as good as TNCs when properly applied, but the bayonet
 mechanism allows too much mechanical alignment play for reasonable
 reliability past a GHz or so.  If they are properly installed and the
 cable is not allowed to put a radial or significant tensile load they
 perform as well as a TNC and close to an N.  For all that, I won't use

FWIW:

The guts of a BNC/TNC is very similar if not identical to a type N,
which is good for at least 12.4 GHz.  The Agilent 13 GHz scopes
have precision (IE tight fitting) BNC connectors on the probes.
All of which of course doesn't mean the Asian BNC's you bought
at the hamfest are any good.

Rick N6RK


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Re: [time-nuts] BNC Question

2011-04-16 Thread Chuck Harris

Rick Karlquist wrote:


FWIW:

The guts of a BNC/TNC is very similar if not identical to a type N,
which is good for at least 12.4 GHz.  The Agilent 13 GHz scopes
have precision (IE tight fitting) BNC connectors on the probes.
All of which of course doesn't mean the Asian BNC's you bought
at the hamfest are any good.

Rick N6RK


There is a very significant difference between the N and the BNC
construction with regards to what is the insulator in the transition
section between the male and female connector:  With the BNC (and TNC)
connector(s), the space is filled with an interdigitated plastic
dielectric.  With the N, the space is filled with air.

-Chuck Harris

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Re: [time-nuts] BNC question

2011-04-10 Thread Magnus Danielson

On 04/10/2011 01:51 AM, Mike S wrote:

At 06:53 PM 4/9/2011, Joseph Gray wrote...

I have an old Arcnet hub that I want to salvage the isolated BNC
connectors from. Arcnet used 93 Ohm coax. I know that there are 50 Ohm
and 75 Ohm versions of BNC connectors, but the ones from the hub look
like a 50 Ohm BNC to me.


The ARCNET spec states: The MIC for use with coaxial cable is a
conventional BNC per MIL-STD-348A. If you look at that spec, it's for
50 Ohm connectors. 75 Ohm ones don't have the insulator around the
center socket. Since ARCNET only ran at 2.5 MHz, the mismatch apparently
didn't matter.


Risetime is the key aspect. If the impedance missmatch is sufficiently 
small compared to the rise-time, it has no significant effect.


As I recall it ARCNET wasn't running at very high speeds and hence no 
need for short rise-times.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] BNC question

2011-04-10 Thread Bruce Griffiths

Magnus Danielson wrote:

On 04/10/2011 01:51 AM, Mike S wrote:

At 06:53 PM 4/9/2011, Joseph Gray wrote...

I have an old Arcnet hub that I want to salvage the isolated BNC
connectors from. Arcnet used 93 Ohm coax. I know that there are 50 Ohm
and 75 Ohm versions of BNC connectors, but the ones from the hub look
like a 50 Ohm BNC to me.


The ARCNET spec states: The MIC for use with coaxial cable is a
conventional BNC per MIL-STD-348A. If you look at that spec, it's for
50 Ohm connectors. 75 Ohm ones don't have the insulator around the
center socket. Since ARCNET only ran at 2.5 MHz, the mismatch apparently
didn't matter.


Risetime is the key aspect. If the impedance missmatch is sufficiently 
small compared to the rise-time, it has no significant effect.


As I recall it ARCNET wasn't running at very high speeds and hence no 
need for short rise-times.


Cheers,
Magnus

There's also the minor issue of 0.7mm and 0.9mm diameter centre pin BNC 
variants.

They do exist, I've seen hundreds of them.

Bruce


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Re: [time-nuts] BNC question

2011-04-10 Thread Magnus Danielson

On 04/10/2011 01:44 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:

Magnus Danielson wrote:

On 04/10/2011 01:51 AM, Mike S wrote:

At 06:53 PM 4/9/2011, Joseph Gray wrote...

I have an old Arcnet hub that I want to salvage the isolated BNC
connectors from. Arcnet used 93 Ohm coax. I know that there are 50 Ohm
and 75 Ohm versions of BNC connectors, but the ones from the hub look
like a 50 Ohm BNC to me.


The ARCNET spec states: The MIC for use with coaxial cable is a
conventional BNC per MIL-STD-348A. If you look at that spec, it's for
50 Ohm connectors. 75 Ohm ones don't have the insulator around the
center socket. Since ARCNET only ran at 2.5 MHz, the mismatch apparently
didn't matter.


Risetime is the key aspect. If the impedance missmatch is sufficiently
small compared to the rise-time, it has no significant effect.

As I recall it ARCNET wasn't running at very high speeds and hence no
need for short rise-times.

Cheers,
Magnus


There's also the minor issue of 0.7mm and 0.9mm diameter centre pin BNC
variants.
They do exist, I've seen hundreds of them.


These days there exists a standard variant of the BNC for 75 Ohm which 
is mechanical compatible with 50 Ohm. So that is what I recommend using.


75 Ohm BNC dominate with margin over 50 Ohm BNC at work. Our rise-times 
makes connector-choices more relevant.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] BNC question

2011-04-10 Thread Greg Broburg

From what I recall from our candle lit lab, the 75 ohm
BNCs had a slightly larger pin and would open up the
50 ohm females just a skoosh so when you put a
50 ohm, into a 50 ohm that had been tweaked by a
75 ohm, they were noisy or intermittent.

Greg

On 4/10/2011 5:30 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

On 04/10/2011 01:51 AM, Mike S wrote:

At 06:53 PM 4/9/2011, Joseph Gray wrote...

I have an old Arcnet hub that I want to salvage the isolated BNC
connectors from. Arcnet used 93 Ohm coax. I know that there are 50 Ohm
and 75 Ohm versions of BNC connectors, but the ones from the hub look
like a 50 Ohm BNC to me.


The ARCNET spec states: The MIC for use with coaxial cable is a
conventional BNC per MIL-STD-348A. If you look at that spec, it's for
50 Ohm connectors. 75 Ohm ones don't have the insulator around the
center socket. Since ARCNET only ran at 2.5 MHz, the mismatch apparently
didn't matter.


Risetime is the key aspect. If the impedance missmatch is sufficiently 
small compared to the rise-time, it has no significant effect.


As I recall it ARCNET wasn't running at very high speeds and hence no 
need for short rise-times.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] BNC question

2011-04-10 Thread Greg Broburg


  Types

BNC connectors exist in 50 and 75ohm 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohmversions, matched for use with 
cables of the samecharacteristic impedance 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_impedance. The 75 ohm 
types can sometimes be recognized by the reduced or absentdielectric 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectricin the mating ends. The 50 
and 75 ohm connectors are typically specified for use at frequencies 
up to 4 and 2 GHz respectively.


75 ohm BNC Connectors are primarily used for video andDS3 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Signal_3Telco central office 
applications^[/clarification needed 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify/] , whereas 50 
ohm are used for data and RF. TheBBC 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Broadcasting_Corporationhad a 
convention that BNC connectors used for video were always 50 ohm, 
maybe because an accidentally connected 50 ohm plug would damage a 75 
ohm socket.^[/dubious 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disputed_statement--discuss 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:BNC_connector#Video/] Many VHF 
receivers used 75 ohmantenna 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_%28radio%29inputs, so they 
often used 75 ohm BNC connectors.




I had remembered that it was a 75 ohm that would damage a
50 ohm socket. This article states that a 50 ohm would
damage a 75 ohm socket.

Greg

On 4/10/2011 9:25 AM, Greg Broburg wrote:

From what I recall from our candle lit lab, the 75 ohm
BNCs had a slightly larger pin and would open up the
50 ohm females just a skoosh so when you put a
50 ohm, into a 50 ohm that had been tweaked by a
75 ohm, they were noisy or intermittent.

Greg

On 4/10/2011 5:30 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

On 04/10/2011 01:51 AM, Mike S wrote:

At 06:53 PM 4/9/2011, Joseph Gray wrote...

I have an old Arcnet hub that I want to salvage the isolated BNC
connectors from. Arcnet used 93 Ohm coax. I know that there are 50 Ohm
and 75 Ohm versions of BNC connectors, but the ones from the hub look
like a 50 Ohm BNC to me.


The ARCNET spec states: The MIC for use with coaxial cable is a
conventional BNC per MIL-STD-348A. If you look at that spec, it's for
50 Ohm connectors. 75 Ohm ones don't have the insulator around the
center socket. Since ARCNET only ran at 2.5 MHz, the mismatch 
apparently

didn't matter.


Risetime is the key aspect. If the impedance missmatch is 
sufficiently small compared to the rise-time, it has no significant 
effect.


As I recall it ARCNET wasn't running at very high speeds and hence no 
need for short rise-times.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] BNC question

2011-04-10 Thread David J Taylor

I had remembered that it was a 75 ohm that would damage a
50 ohm socket. This article states that a 50 ohm would
damage a 75 ohm socket.

Greg


Indeed, the 75-ohm will have the smaller inner, and hence may be damaged 
by the larger pin on the 50-ohm connector.


David
GM8ARV
--
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web:  http://www.satsignal.eu
Email:  david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 



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Re: [time-nuts] BNC question

2011-04-10 Thread Chuck Harris

Greg Broburg wrote:


receivers used 75 ohmantenna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_%28radio%29inputs, so they
often used 75 ohm BNC connectors.



I had remembered that it was a 75 ohm that would damage a
50 ohm socket. This article states that a 50 ohm would
damage a 75 ohm socket.

Greg


Sadly, you remembered incorrectly.  Both 75 ohm, and 50 ohm
BNC parts use the same center pin assemblies.  The only
difference is the 75 ohm part has the teflon shroud removed
from around the female pin.  They mate in all combinations
without any risk of damage.

The N style connector is a different story, however.  It is
a higher performance connector, and as a result they needed
to make the center conductor of a 75 ohm connector smaller
in diameter all the way through, so the 75 ohm center male
pin is slender, as is the 75 ohm center female pin.  If you
jam a thicker 50 ohm center pin into the slender 75 ohm
female pin, it will bend the socket leafs out and probably
break it.

-Chuck Harris

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Re: [time-nuts] BNC question

2011-04-10 Thread Bruce Griffiths

Chuck Harris wrote:

Greg Broburg wrote:


receivers used 75 ohmantenna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_%28radio%29inputs, so they
often used 75 ohm BNC connectors.



I had remembered that it was a 75 ohm that would damage a
50 ohm socket. This article states that a 50 ohm would
damage a 75 ohm socket.

Greg


Sadly, you remembered incorrectly.  Both 75 ohm, and 50 ohm
BNC parts use the same center pin assemblies.  The only
difference is the 75 ohm part has the teflon shroud removed
from around the female pin.  They mate in all combinations
without any risk of damage.
Not necessarily true, BNCs intended for use with RG59 cable with either 
a 0.7mm diameter pin or a 0.9mm diameter pin are readily available.
Whilst one of these may now be non standard they are nevertheless they 
are still available from Chinese manufacturers at least.




The N style connector is a different story, however.  It is
a higher performance connector, and as a result they needed
to make the center conductor of a 75 ohm connector smaller
in diameter all the way through, so the 75 ohm center male
pin is slender, as is the 75 ohm center female pin.  If you
jam a thicker 50 ohm center pin into the slender 75 ohm
female pin, it will bend the socket leafs out and probably
break it.

-Chuck Harris

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Re: [time-nuts] BNC question

2011-04-10 Thread Joseph Gray
Thanks for all the input. I looked closely at the connectors and they
seem to match some 50 Ohm connectors that I have. I have removed them
from the board and now have eight isolated BNC connectors for my
project.

Joe Gray
W5JG

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[time-nuts] BNC question

2011-04-09 Thread Joseph Gray
I have an old Arcnet hub that I want to salvage the isolated BNC
connectors from. Arcnet used 93 Ohm coax. I know that there are 50 Ohm
and 75 Ohm versions of BNC connectors, but the ones from the hub look
like a 50 Ohm BNC to me.

I want to use these isolated BNC connectors for a frequency
distribution amp. What do you think?

I'm still trying to find some old Ethernet cards for the transformers.
I know the cards will have BNC connectors, but the hub has eight
matched BNC connectors, so using them would be preferrable.

Joe Gray
W5JG

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Re: [time-nuts] BNC question

2011-04-09 Thread Alan Melia
Hi Stan this one has been covered before the pins are the same size the
difference is in the amount of dielectric round the socket in the
femalethe 75 ohm one hase the socket poking free of the ptfe and on the
50 ohm it is flush with the end. The the centre connectors mate correctly
together.

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: Stan, W1LE stanw...@verizon.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 12:32 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] BNC question


 Hello Joe,

 It probably is a 50 ohm BNC female connector.

 Check out a male loose connector with a known 50 ohm center pin.
 Does the male pin fit the female nicely ?

 I have rarely seen a 75 ohm BNC center pin, but they are out there.
 I have never seen a 93 ohm BNC center pin. (never looked for them.)

 If you apply a true 75 ohm BNC male connector to a 50 ohm BNC female it
 may not mate properly with a
 low resistance joint.   ie. poor mechanical fit.

 If you apply a 50 ohm male BNC into a 75 ohm BNC female, you will
 probably destroy the female center pin.

 Cost wise, the 50 ohm BNC connectors are the least expensive, so that is
 what manufacturers use.
 For most applications the electrical length of the center pin is a very
 small part of a wavelength,
 so there is only a very small impact on the impedance, on the rare
 occasion impedance is of concern.

 Stan, W1LE






 On 4/9/2011 6:53 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:
  I have an old Arcnet hub that I want to salvage the isolated BNC
  connectors from. Arcnet used 93 Ohm coax. I know that there are 50 Ohm
  and 75 Ohm versions of BNC connectors, but the ones from the hub look
  like a 50 Ohm BNC to me.
 
  I want to use these isolated BNC connectors for a frequency
  distribution amp. What do you think?
 
  I'm still trying to find some old Ethernet cards for the transformers.
  I know the cards will have BNC connectors, but the hub has eight
  matched BNC connectors, so using them would be preferrable.
 
  Joe Gray
  W5JG
 
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Re: [time-nuts] BNC question

2011-04-09 Thread Mike S

At 06:53 PM 4/9/2011, Joseph Gray wrote...

I have an old Arcnet hub that I want to salvage the isolated BNC
connectors from. Arcnet used 93 Ohm coax. I know that there are 50 Ohm
and 75 Ohm versions of BNC connectors, but the ones from the hub look
like a 50 Ohm BNC to me.


The ARCNET spec states: The MIC for use with coaxial cable is a 
conventional BNC per MIL-STD-348A. If you look at that spec, it's for 
50 Ohm connectors. 75 Ohm ones don't have the insulator around the 
center socket. Since ARCNET only ran at 2.5 MHz, the mismatch 
apparently didn't matter. 



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[time-nuts] BNC Question

2011-04-09 Thread Brucekareen
Interestingly, 50 and 75-ohm BNC connectors have the same pin/shell  
dimensions and properly couple together.  For more information go to 
_http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/august_2007.htm_ 
(http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/august_2007.htm)  and  scroll down to the 
02 August 2007 entry.  There is a 
link to the Amphenol  site for specifics about the connectors.
 
I am planning to use an Extron video distribution amplifier for standard  
frequency distribution.  The 75-ohm connectors will be OK.  These  amplifiers 
feed multiple 75-ohm outputs from a zero-impedance source by  inserting a 
75-ohm resistor in each leg.  Some folks using these for  standard 
frequency distribution change the resistors to 50-ohms.
 
Bruce, KG6OJI
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Re: [time-nuts] BNC Question

2011-04-09 Thread Stan, W1LE

Sorri, I must have been thinking type N connectors.

Stan, W1LE


On 4/9/2011 8:18 PM, brucekar...@aol.com wrote:

Interestingly, 50 and 75-ohm BNC connectors have the same pin/shell
dimensions and properly couple together.  For more information go to
_http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/august_2007.htm_
(http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/august_2007.htm)  and  scroll down to the 
02 August 2007 entry.  There is a
link to the Amphenol  site for specifics about the connectors.

I am planning to use an Extron video distribution amplifier for standard
frequency distribution.  The 75-ohm connectors will be OK.  These  amplifiers
feed multiple 75-ohm outputs from a zero-impedance source by  inserting a
75-ohm resistor in each leg.  Some folks using these for  standard
frequency distribution change the resistors to 50-ohms.

Bruce, KG6OJI
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