Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Adrian Godwin]

There's a fairly thorough explanation here (especially the long article
that begins with a map)

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/360328/serbia-kosovo-power-grid-row-delays-european-clocks-why


On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 7:26 AM, Bill Hawkins <bill.i...@pobox.com> wrote:

> Well, if you don't pay your bills, the power company can't afford the
> fuel required to keep up with demand.
> Stability of the system frequency requires a balance between supply and
> demand. If the demand exceeds supply then the generators must slow down.
> In a synchronous network, all generators must slow down to reduce strain
> on the network. If strain is exceeded, circuit breakers pop until the
> demand equals supply. So if a part of the network has to slow down from
> lack of fuel, then the entire network has to slow down to prevent
> popping circuit breakers until demand power equals supply.
>
> Hope that helps,
> Bill Hawkins
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of David
> G. McGaw
> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2018 11:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks
>
> Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and
> therefore the clocks to slow down?  None of the reports, either for the
> technical or lay person, give a reason.
>
> David N1HAC
>
>
>
> ___
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Bill Hawkins]

Well, if you don't pay your bills, the power company can't afford the
fuel required to keep up with demand.
Stability of the system frequency requires a balance between supply and
demand. If the demand exceeds supply then the generators must slow down.
In a synchronous network, all generators must slow down to reduce strain
on the network. If strain is exceeded, circuit breakers pop until the
demand equals supply. So if a part of the network has to slow down from
lack of fuel, then the entire network has to slow down to prevent
popping circuit breakers until demand power equals supply.

Hope that helps,
Bill Hawkins


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of David
G. McGaw
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2018 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and
therefore the clocks to slow down?  None of the reports, either for the
technical or lay person, give a reason.

David N1HAC



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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Hal Murray]

If you don't pay your bills, the guy who was sending you power stops sending 
it so your zone starts running without enough power.

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

When there is more demand than generation, the frequency of the grid
drops.   My understanding is that one particular country is pulling more
from the grid than they are generating, and for political/and or financial
reasons which are a bit unclear, noone is willing to generate enough power
to balance the grid.  For most of the generators, the most likely reason is
probably because they aren't wanting to generate the power for free.

In essence this power is being stolen from the grid and not being returned,
causing the frequency variation.

On Mar 9, 2018 12:06 AM, "David G. McGaw" <david.g.mc...@dartmouth.edu>
wrote:

Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and
therefore the clocks to slow down?  None of the reports, either for the
technical or lay person, give a reason.

David N1HAC



On 3/8/18 5:00 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and
> for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year:
>
>https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%
> 2F%2Fwwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl%2F~ptdeboer%2Fmisc%2Fmains-
> 2018.html=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.
> edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31
> ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977=LwRuSvSr0HO
> kxvFoI26uFxgjAxbFif6ytgxe4U2Q%2BQE%3D=0
>
>
> This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains
> cycle using NTP for reference.
>
> Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef
> posted.
>
> Regards,
>Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuec...@avm.de wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe
>> lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of
>> the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems.
>>
>> I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I
>> get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Detlef Schücker
>> DD4WV
>>
>> (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf)
>>
>> "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55:
>>
>> Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk...@arcor.de>
>>> An: time-nuts@febo.com
>>> Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41
>>> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks
>>> Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:
>>>
>>>> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
>>>>> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
>>>>> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.
>>>>>
>>>> Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for
>>>>
>>> future discussions...
>>> Does that help?
>>>
>>> <
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>>> 2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F137684711%40N07%2F3887075044
>>> 0%2Fin%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.
>>> edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31
>>> ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977=tOoi%
>>> 2BsnXyQjy0%2FGXCyOtOInytUmckrvoKGIO1G%2FRpnE%3D=0
>>>
>>> album-72157662535945536/
>>>   >
>>>
>>> Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to
>>>
>> 4Vpp.
>>
>>> Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the
>>> middle of the night after all.
>>> They have to catch up.
>>>
>>> BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This
>>> weekend
>>> I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state.
>>>
>>> The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic.
>>> The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line,
>>> so I can enforce
>>> quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc.
>>> Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays.
>>>
>>> The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in
>>> the 89441A.
>>> One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be
>>> MTI-260s on
>>> my oscillator carrier board.
>>>
>>> Have a good night,
>>> Gerhard
>>>
>

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Andy Backus]

Please forgive that I am a lurker and have not contributed.


But this last thread caught my eye since I monitor the time error for the 
Western Grid here in the US.


Over the last year the usual variation is very much the same as in David's 
graph for 2017 -- i.e., +/- 30 seconds.  The power folks worldwide must all 
read the same journals.


There was a time, before October, 2015, that the TE here was kept to +/- 10 sec 
(and years before that even closer).  Maintaining tight TE, however, threatens 
the stability of load/source balancing.  And there are fewer and fewer 
synchronous clocks in use.


If anyone is interested I have data (every minute) for the last two years.


Andy Backus

Bellingham, WA



From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of David G. McGaw 
<david.g.mc...@dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:01 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and
therefore the clocks to slow down?  None of the reports, either for the
technical or lay person, give a reason.

David N1HAC


On 3/8/18 5:00 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and
> for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year:
>
>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl%2F~ptdeboer%2Fmisc%2Fmains-2018.html=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977=LwRuSvSr0HOkxvFoI26uFxgjAxbFif6ytgxe4U2Q%2BQE%3D=0
>
> This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains
> cycle using NTP for reference.
>
> Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef posted.
>
> Regards,
>Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuec...@avm.de wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe
>> lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of
>> the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems.
>>
>> I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I
>> get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Detlef Schücker
>> DD4WV
>>
>> (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf)
>>
>> "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55:
>>
>>> Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk...@arcor.de>
>>> An: time-nuts@febo.com
>>> Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41
>>> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks
>>> Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:
>>>>> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
>>>>> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
>>>>> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.
>>>> Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for
>>> future discussions...
>>> Does that help?
>>>
>>> <
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F137684711%40N07%2F38870750440%2Fin%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977=tOoi%2BsnXyQjy0%2FGXCyOtOInytUmckrvoKGIO1G%2FRpnE%3D=0
>>> album-72157662535945536/
>>>   >
>>>
>>> Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to
>> 4Vpp.
>>> Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the
>>> middle of the night after all.
>>> They have to catch up.
>>>
>>> BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This
>>> weekend
>>> I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state.
>>>
>>> The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic.
>>> The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line,
>>> so I can enforce
>>> quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc.
>>> Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays.
>>>
>>> The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in
>>> the 89441A.
>>> One of the mixer/preamp

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[David G. McGaw]

Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and 
therefore the clocks to slow down?  None of the reports, either for the 
technical or lay person, give a reason.


David N1HAC


On 3/8/18 5:00 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer wrote:

Hello all,

Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and
for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year:

   
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl%2F~ptdeboer%2Fmisc%2Fmains-2018.html=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977=LwRuSvSr0HOkxvFoI26uFxgjAxbFif6ytgxe4U2Q%2BQE%3D=0

This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains
cycle using NTP for reference.

Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef posted.

Regards,
   Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM)



On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuec...@avm.de wrote:

Hi,

from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe
lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of
the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems.

I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I
get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz.

Cheers
Detlef Schücker
DD4WV

(See attached file: lostseconds.pdf)

"time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55:


Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk...@arcor.de>
An: time-nuts@febo.com
Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41
Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks
Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com>



Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:

This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.

Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for

future discussions...
Does that help?

<
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F137684711%40N07%2F38870750440%2Fin%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977=tOoi%2BsnXyQjy0%2FGXCyOtOInytUmckrvoKGIO1G%2FRpnE%3D=0
album-72157662535945536/
          >

Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to

4Vpp.

Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the
middle of the night after all.
They have to catch up.

BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This
weekend
I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state.

The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic.
The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line,
so I can enforce
quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc.
Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays.

The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in
the 89441A.
One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be
MTI-260s on
my oscillator carrier board.

Have a good night,
Gerhard

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

Hello all,

Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and
for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year:

  http://wwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/misc/mains-2018.html

This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains
cycle using NTP for reference.

Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef posted.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM)



On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuec...@avm.de wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe
> lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of
> the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems.
> 
> I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I
> get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz.
> 
> Cheers
> Detlef Schücker
> DD4WV
> 
> (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf)
> 
> "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55:
> 
> > Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk...@arcor.de>
> > An: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41
> > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks
> > Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com>
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:
> > >
> > >> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
> > >> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
> > >> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.
> > > Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for
> > future discussions...
> > >
> > Does that help?
> >
> > <
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/38870750440/in/
> > album-72157662535945536/
> >          >
> >
> > Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to
> 4Vpp.
> > Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the
> > middle of the night after all.
> > They have to catch up.
> >
> > BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This
> > weekend
> > I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state.
> >
> > The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic.
> > The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line,
> > so I can enforce
> > quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc.
> > Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays.
> >
> > The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in
> > the 89441A.
> > One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be
> > MTI-260s on
> > my oscillator carrier board.
> >
> > Have a good night,
> > Gerhard
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Tim Shoppa]

If the drift had been 5 or 15 seconds over a few days, sure, "catching up"
is right.

But after two months of accumulated 7 minutes deviation, surely everyone
has already manually adjusted their clocks? And in the process of the grid
"catching up" won't everyones clocks now be 7 minutes fast after the
catch-up?

Tim N3QE

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 9:50 AM, <d.schuec...@avm.de> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe
> lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of
> the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems.
>
> I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I
> get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz.
>
> Cheers
> Detlef Schücker
> DD4WV
>
> (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf)
>
> "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55:
>
> > Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk...@arcor.de>
> > An: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41
> > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks
> > Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com>
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:
> > >
> > >> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
> > >> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
> > >> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.
> > > Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for
> > future discussions...
> > >
> > Does that help?
> >
> > <
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/38870750440/in/
> > album-72157662535945536/
> >  >
> >
> > Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to
> 4Vpp.
> > Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the
> > middle of the night after all.
> > They have to catch up.
> >
> > BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This
> > weekend
> > I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state.
> >
> > The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic.
> > The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line,
> > so I can enforce
> > quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc.
> > Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays.
> >
> > The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in
> > the 89441A.
> > One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be
> > MTI-260s on
> > my oscillator carrier board.
> >
> > Have a good night,
> > Gerhard
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Bill Woodcock]

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 6:39 AM, Jean-Louis Rault  wrote:
> 
> A picture of my own microwaves oven, this 8th of march, near Paris, France .


https://preview.entsoe.eu/news/2018/03/06/press-release-continuing-frequency-deviation-in-the-continental-european-power-system-originating-in-serbia-kosovo-political-solution-urgently-needed-in-addition-to-technical/


-Bill



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[time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Jean-Louis Rault]

A picture of my own microwaves oven, this 8th of march, near Paris, France .

The time reference is a DCF77 radio controlled clock.

Jean-Louis Rault

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Jean-Louis Rault]

A picture of my own microwaves oven, this 8th of march, near Paris, France .

The time reference is a DCF77 radio controlled clock.

Jean-Louis Rault



Le 07/03/2018 à 21:09, Poul-Henning Kamp a écrit :


In message 
<1520456485.3091982.1295242984.442b4...@webmail.messagingengine.com>, Pete 
Stephenson
  writes:

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Mark Sims wrote:

A more detailed explanation of what is happening:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/ovens-across-europe-display-the-wrong-time-due-to-a-serbia-kosovo-grid-dispute/

This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.

Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for future 
discussions...



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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:



This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.

Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for future 
discussions...


Does that help?

< 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/38870750440/in/album-72157662535945536/ 
        >


Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to 4Vpp.
Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the 
middle of the night after all.

They have to catch up.

BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This 
weekend

I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state.

The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic.
The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line, 
so I can enforce

quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc.
Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays.

The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in 
the 89441A.
One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be 
MTI-260s on

my oscillator carrier board.

Have a good night,
Gerhard

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Attila Kinali]

On Wed, 07 Mar 2018 22:01:25 +0100
Pete Stephenson  wrote:

> Fortunately the Swiss rail system doesn't, as far as I know, use powerline 
> frequency for timekeeping, even at remote stations, so all the railway 
> clocks are still running properly. 

They used to have a central HBG receiver at all train stations,
with a few exceptions where reception was bad (there, they got a
special permission to use DCF77 instead). I have no idea what
they use these days for synchronization.

Attila Kinali

-- 
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 
<1520456485.3091982.1295242984.442b4...@webmail.messagingengine.com>, Pete 
Stephenson
 writes:
>On Wed, Mar 7, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
>> A more detailed explanation of what is happening:
>> 
>> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/ovens-across-europe-display-the-wrong-time-due-to-a-serbia-kosovo-grid-dispute/
>
>This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
>on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
>slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.

Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for future 
discussions...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Pete Stephenson]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
> A more detailed explanation of what is happening:
> 
> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/ovens-across-europe-display-the-wrong-time-due-to-a-serbia-kosovo-grid-dispute/

This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display on the 
building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes slow since 
January. It was a great mystery to me. 

Fortunately the Swiss rail system doesn't, as far as I know, use powerline 
frequency for timekeeping, even at remote stations, so all the railway clocks 
are still running properly. 

-- 
Pete Stephenson
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[time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Mark Sims]

A more detailed explanation of what is happening:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/ovens-across-europe-display-the-wrong-time-due-to-a-serbia-kosovo-grid-dispute/
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[time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Leo Bodnar]

This has been making rounds for quite awhile, I am surprised it has not been 
picked up here.
Leo
==
Frequency deviations in Continental Europe including impact on electric clocks 
steered by frequency
Continental European Power System has been experiencing, since mid-January, 
continuous significant power deviations due to shortage in supply from one 
transmission system operator of the interconnected system.  All actions are 
taken by the TSOs of Continental Europe and by ENTSO-E to resolve the situation.

The power deviations have led to a slight drop in the electric frequency. This 
in turn has also affected those electric clocks that are steered by the 
frequency of the power system and not by a quartz crystal: they show currently 
a delay of 5 minutes. TSOs will set up a compensation program to correct the 
time in the future.

https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx

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