Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Attila:

The difference in chemistry I got from "Handbook of Batteries" 3rd ed, 2001.  Your comments about modern chargers are 
correct, but this thread is about the HP 105 which uses what we both might call an old fashioned charging circuit.


--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 11:37:23 -0700
Brooke Clarke  wrote:


The chemistries are very different. Ni-Cad is endothermic whereas Ni-MH is
Exothermic.  This is why chargers for Ni-MH
have a mandatory temperature sensor.  This is one of the reasons I say Ni-
Cad cells batteries are easy to charge.

Both NiCd and NiMH behave the same way chemically. Both reactions
are exotherm when the batteries are full, i.e. the electrical
energy you put into them cannot be "absorbed" chemically and thus
is dissipated through heat. (I'm not sure whether it's correct to
talk about exotherm/endotherm in this kind of setting, i'd appreciate
if someone with chemistry knowledge would correct me) The reason why
NiMH charger "need" a temeperature sensor is, because the classical
fast-charger for NiCd uses the negative dV/dt slope when the battery
gets full to detect end of charging, but the peak is much less
pronounced with NiMH than with NiCd (factor 2-5 IIRC). Hence people
were adviced to use only NiCd fast-chargers which had a temperature sensor.
Slow chargers (i.e. 0.1C chargers) do not have this problem, though
you shouldn't leave the battery  on for days (NiMH is a quite bit more
sensitive when it comes to overcharging). "Modern" fast-chargers for
NiCd/NiMH  chemistries have adjusted their dV/dt trip point to reliably
trigger with NiMH. Additionally all better chips (probably all chips, today?)
use pulse charging where the battery is measured during a short no-charge
period to more accurately measure the batteries condition.


NiMH is a good replacement for NiCd if you can live with the drawbacks.
Namely:
* slightly trickier charging (but that's the problem of the charger)
* more sensitive to over/under charging
* higher self-discharge

On the positive side, you get a greatly reduced memory effect (to the
point where a lot of people say it doesn't exist).

Attila Kinali



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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Attila Kinali]

On Sat, 17 Sep 2016 12:03:47 +0200
Attila Kinali  wrote:

> Hence people
> were adviced to use only NiCd fast-chargers which had a temperature sensor. 

Addendum: The other "classical" NiCd fast-charger architecture used
the fast rise in temperature when the battery was full to detect
end of charge. These reliably triggered with NiMH as well, although
had a tendency to slightly overcharge them.

Attila Kinali

-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Attila Kinali]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 11:37:23 -0700
Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> The chemistries are very different. Ni-Cad is endothermic whereas Ni-MH is 
> Exothermic.  This is why chargers for Ni-MH 
> have a mandatory temperature sensor.  This is one of the reasons I say Ni-
> Cad cells batteries are easy to charge.

Both NiCd and NiMH behave the same way chemically. Both reactions
are exotherm when the batteries are full, i.e. the electrical
energy you put into them cannot be "absorbed" chemically and thus
is dissipated through heat. (I'm not sure whether it's correct to
talk about exotherm/endotherm in this kind of setting, i'd appreciate
if someone with chemistry knowledge would correct me) The reason why
NiMH charger "need" a temeperature sensor is, because the classical
fast-charger for NiCd uses the negative dV/dt slope when the battery
gets full to detect end of charging, but the peak is much less
pronounced with NiMH than with NiCd (factor 2-5 IIRC). Hence people
were adviced to use only NiCd fast-chargers which had a temperature sensor. 
Slow chargers (i.e. 0.1C chargers) do not have this problem, though
you shouldn't leave the battery  on for days (NiMH is a quite bit more
sensitive when it comes to overcharging). "Modern" fast-chargers for
NiCd/NiMH  chemistries have adjusted their dV/dt trip point to reliably
trigger with NiMH. Additionally all better chips (probably all chips, today?)
use pulse charging where the battery is measured during a short no-charge
period to more accurately measure the batteries condition.


NiMH is a good replacement for NiCd if you can live with the drawbacks.
Namely:
* slightly trickier charging (but that's the problem of the charger)
* more sensitive to over/under charging
* higher self-discharge

On the positive side, you get a greatly reduced memory effect (to the
point where a lot of people say it doesn't exist). 

Attila Kinali

-- 
Malek's Law:
Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[David G. McGaw]

It has been my experience that both chemistries have thermal cutouts for 
overcharge limiting and both can use chargers that detect the negative 
voltage slope when the cells heat up once they are fully charged, hence 
the ability to use the same chargers for NiCd and NiMH.  I have many 
radios that started out with NiCd batteries and the newer replacements 
are NiMH.


David

On 9/16/16 2:37 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi David:

The chemistries are very different. Ni-Cad is endothermic whereas 
Ni-MH is Exothermic.  This is why chargers for Ni-MH have a mandatory 
temperature sensor.  This is one of the reasons I say Ni-Cad cells 
batteries are easy to charge.




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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[David]

I have a pair of Liebert GTX2-700RT online UPSes and they work well; I
just replaced the batteries, lubricated the fans, and cleaned the dust
out of them a couple weeks ago.  They have that sort of standard 4
prong socket on the back for external batteries.

But unlike my two Powerware Prestige EXT UPSes, they only operate with
batteries installed.  The Prestige EXT will operate as a super power
conditioner without batteries which is just as well since it uses 5 x
12V 4AH batteries for 60 volts instead of the more standard and less
expensive 4 x 12V 7AH-9AH batteries.  These have a 4 pin Molex type of
socket on the back for battery expansion.  I have considered
converting these to use a bank of supercapacitors but I suspect the
charge circuit would have a fit charging them from zero volts.

I picked these up inexpensively from http://www.refurbups.com/ but I
have not seen any deals on refurbished online UPSes there for quite a
while now.

If your equipment can run on 12 volts DC, then there are less
expensive solutions like one of those Belkin 12 volt battery backed up
power supplies that some ISPs issue to their customers or something
home grown.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:56:35 -0400, you wrote:

>Actually the larger SmartUPS series can run for hours providing a large enough 
>battery string is available I have a SmartUPS RM3000 running data rack 
>this has 2 external battery boxes and will run everything for 6 hours.
>
>For TimeNuts applications though I'd recommend a Liebert UPS as this is a 
>'online' UPS as in input is converted to DC and used to float batteries and 
>drive a power oscillator for a true sine output and in a power interruption 
>there is no transfer time or transients on the output
>
>Content by Scott
>Typos by Siri
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[David]

High end standby UPSes support external batteries but most or all
online UPSes do.  I have 3 different online UPS models and they all
support external batteries of either 48 or 60 volts.

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 15:13:59 -0700, you wrote:

>Since I have a 12V 100 A-H gelled electrolyte battery as a
>short-term backup (for those outages not worth firing up the generator),
>I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So far I don't see
>such a thing--do they exist?
>
>Jeremy
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi David:

The chemistries are very different. Ni-Cad is endothermic whereas Ni-MH is Exothermic.  This is why chargers for Ni-MH 
have a mandatory temperature sensor.  This is one of the reasons I say Ni-Cad cells batteries are easy to charge.


--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 
NiMH batteries are close the same voltage and charge the same as NiCd and are more available and not toxic when 
disposing of them. They should be a good replacement.  Lithiums are very different in voltage and charging.


David N1HAC

On 9/14/16 10:19 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:

Thanks, Brooke, I'll price new Ni-Cads. I wasn't thinking of lead-acid (gel
cells) but rather lithium rechargeable, providing I can find a type that
won't catch fire and will work with the 105B'scircuits.

Jeremy


On Wednesday, September 14, 2016, Brooke Clarke  wrote:


Hi Alex:

Yes, I'm recommending Ni-Cad but NOT any acid type.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 


Hi Brooke,

sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid, they
have K-OH  kalium hidrioxid  [potassium hydroxide  for anglophone ] as
electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in radios.

73

KJ6UHN

Alex

On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:


Hi Jeremy:

It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that
has electronics since if it vents the acid will etch the PCBs.
Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency
Standard because the oven no longer worked.
http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html


Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no
longer have a memory effect.  They are also very easy to charge, so why not
just replace the old cells?



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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Any time you get into UPS designs, they are all over the map …

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:01 PM, Gary E. Miller  wrote:
> 
> Yo Hal!
> 
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 00:50:56 -0700
> Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
>> g...@rellim.com said:
>>> APC UPS can't handle the longer runtime, but never had a problem
>>> with any version of CyberPower.   
>> 
>> There are two parameters for UPS boxes.  One is the power the
>> electronics can handle.  The other is the amount of energy the
>> batteries can hold.
> 
> You can change up the batteries for more runtime, but real cheap UPS
> will overheat and die.  They were not designed for steady state
> operation.
> 
> That is the problem with the cheaper APC.  They were designed for 5 or
> 10 mins at max power.  Run them for two hours at max power then they
> overheat and permanently fail.
> 
>> I think some of the smaller units have inadequate cooling to run at
>> rated power for long, but their batteries are small enough so that
>> they run out of power before the electronics overheats.
> 
> Nothing to do with size.  I have seen this in big and small.
> 
> The other thing is whether there is a transfer switch, or the UPS is on
> continuously.  The APC tend to switch the batteries and DC/AC converter
> online only when needed.  OTOH, the CyberPower run from the batteries
> all the time.  

Certainly some do. The ones I have do not. You take a pretty significant 
efficiency hit when you go “full time DC”. 

Bob

> The transfer glitch can be quite large and affect the
> load.  So the float type UPS tends to give smoother power more of the
> time.
> 
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>   g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Gary E. Miller]

Yo Hal!

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 00:50:56 -0700
Hal Murray  wrote:

> g...@rellim.com said:
> > APC UPS can't handle the longer runtime, but never had a problem
> > with any version of CyberPower.   
> 
> There are two parameters for UPS boxes.  One is the power the
> electronics can handle.  The other is the amount of energy the
> batteries can hold.

You can change up the batteries for more runtime, but real cheap UPS
will overheat and die.  They were not designed for steady state
operation.

That is the problem with the cheaper APC.  They were designed for 5 or
10 mins at max power.  Run them for two hours at max power then they
overheat and permanently fail.

> I think some of the smaller units have inadequate cooling to run at
> rated power for long, but their batteries are small enough so that
> they run out of power before the electronics overheats.

Nothing to do with size.  I have seen this in big and small.

The other thing is whether there is a transfer switch, or the UPS is on
continuously.  The APC tend to switch the batteries and DC/AC converter
online only when needed.  OTOH, the CyberPower run from the batteries
all the time.  The transfer glitch can be quite large and affect the
load.  So the float type UPS tends to give smoother power more of the
time.

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588


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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Scott McGrath]

Actually the larger SmartUPS series can run for hours providing a large enough 
battery string is available I have a SmartUPS RM3000 running data rack this 
has 2 external battery boxes and will run everything for 6 hours.


For TimeNuts applications though I'd recommend a Liebert UPS as this is a 
'online' UPS as in input is converted to DC and used to float batteries and 
drive a power oscillator for a true sine output and in a power interruption 
there is no transfer time or transients on the output

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
> 
> g...@rellim.com said:
>> APC UPS can't handle the longer runtime, but never had a problem with any
>> version of CyberPower.
> 
> There are two parameters for UPS boxes.  One is the power the electronics can 
> handle.  The other is the amount of energy the batteries can hold.
> 
> I think some of the smaller units have inadequate cooling to run at rated 
> power for long, but their batteries are small enough so that they run out of 
> power before the electronics overheats.
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Hal Murray]

g...@rellim.com said:
> APC UPS can't handle the longer runtime, but never had a problem with any
> version of CyberPower. 

There are two parameters for UPS boxes.  One is the power the electronics can 
handle.  The other is the amount of energy the batteries can hold.

I think some of the smaller units have inadequate cooling to run at rated 
power for long, but their batteries are small enough so that they run out of 
power before the electronics overheats.

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thanks, everyone for the ideas and discussion. One sine wave inverter sold
by theinverterstore.com is a "
*AIMS 1200 Watt Inverter with Transfer SwitchPart # PWRIX120012S." *

It sounds more than adequate for my needs. I'm sure there are others and
I'll continue to shop.

Jeremy

On Thursday, September 15, 2016, Robert LaJeunesse <lajeune...@mail.com>
wrote:

> Check with the used equipment / property disposition department of the
> nearest big research university. The one near me often has big UPSs at
> relatively little prices.
>
> Bob LaJeunesse
>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 7:12 PM
> > From: "Andy ZL3AG" <zl...@radioengineering.com <javascript:;>>
> > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts@febo.com <javascript:;>>
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?
> >
> >
> > If you know where to get them from, you can get used 19" rack mount
> UPS's for scrap value. They might have fried batteries, but that's easily
> solved.
> >
> >
> > On 16/09/2016, at 11:06 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > They are very common when you look at server UPS or larger units.
> There are literally hundreds of models to pick between. Prices are from
> roughly $400 up to a few hundred thousand dollars per unit.
> > >
> > > Bob
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[David G. McGaw]

NiMH batteries are close the same voltage and charge the same as NiCd 
and are more available and not toxic when disposing of them. They should 
be a good replacement.  Lithiums are very different in voltage and charging.


David N1HAC

On 9/14/16 10:19 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:

Thanks, Brooke, I'll price new Ni-Cads. I wasn't thinking of lead-acid (gel
cells) but rather lithium rechargeable, providing I can find a type that
won't catch fire and will work with the 105B'scircuits.

Jeremy


On Wednesday, September 14, 2016, Brooke Clarke  wrote:


Hi Alex:

Yes, I'm recommending Ni-Cad but NOT any acid type.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 


Hi Brooke,

sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid, they
have K-OH  kalium hidrioxid  [potassium hydroxide  for anglophone ] as
electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in radios.

73

KJ6UHN

Alex

On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:


Hi Jeremy:

It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that
has electronics since if it vents the acid will etch the PCBs.
Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency
Standard because the oven no longer worked.
http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html


Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no
longer have a memory effect.  They are also very easy to charge, so why not
just replace the old cells?



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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Robert LaJeunesse]

Check with the used equipment / property disposition department of the nearest 
big research university. The one near me often has big UPSs at relatively 
little prices.

Bob LaJeunesse

> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 7:12 PM
> From: "Andy ZL3AG" <zl...@radioengineering.com>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?
>
> 
> If you know where to get them from, you can get used 19" rack mount UPS's for 
> scrap value. They might have fried batteries, but that's easily solved.
> 
>  
> On 16/09/2016, at 11:06 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> 
> > Hi
> > 
> > They are very common when you look at server UPS or larger units. There are 
> > literally hundreds of models to pick between. Prices are from roughly $400 
> > up to a few hundred thousand dollars per unit.
> > 
> > Bob
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Mark Spencer]

In my experience the commonly seen UPS's that support external batteries expect 
you to use the batteries supplied (or at least specified) by the manufacturer.  
  

That being said I have come across UPS systems that are designed to work with 
generic user supplied 12 volt batteries but in my experience they are much less 
common.  Some of them even have adjustments to provide different charging 
voltages for different types of batteries.

Sorry this is getting a bit off topic.

All the best
Mark S



Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 4:06 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> They are very common when you look at server UPS or larger units. There are 
> literally hundreds of models to pick between. Prices are from roughly $400 up 
> to a few hundred thousand dollars per unit.
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
>> 
>> Since I have a 12V 100 A-H gelled electrolyte battery as a
>> short-term backup (for those outages not worth firing up the generator),
>> I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So far I don't see
>> such a thing--do they exist?
>> 
>> Jeremy
>> 
>>> On Thursday, September 15, 2016, Bob Camp  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> It’s been quite a while since I bought anything other than a pure sine
>>> UPS. They really aren’t as expensive
>>> as they once were. You may find them a bit cheaper from outfits like
>>> CyberPower than from APC. Sometimes
>>> it s a bit tough to work out exactly what is or is not a pure sine wave
>>> unit. If you want a full “always on” pure
>>> sine device, they are still a bit expensive.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols > wrote:
 
 Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of
>>> the output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave (i.e.,
>>> expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave (aka
>>> modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. Anyone
>>> have experience?
 
 A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like
>>> another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have such
>>> a need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.
 
 Jeremy
 
 
> On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
> 
> A bigger question becomes:
> 
> Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?
> 
> These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone
>>> area. Powering
> the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff
>>> is one obvious
> answer.
> 
> The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is
>>> external to all
> the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack.
>>> That way you have
> a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch
>>> scattered about. Things like
> lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option
>>> in an independent
> battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest
>>> in something with real
> smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the
>>> conversion to instrument
> voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12,
>>> 24, or 48V and run with it.
> 
> My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become
>>> “don’t do it”. It makes
> them a *lot* lighter weight !!!
> 
> Bob
 
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 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com 
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
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>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Andy ZL3AG]

If you know where to get them from, you can get used 19" rack mount UPS's for 
scrap value. They might have fried batteries, but that's easily solved.

 
On 16/09/2016, at 11:06 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

> Hi
> 
> They are very common when you look at server UPS or larger units. There are 
> literally hundreds of models to pick between. Prices are from roughly $400 up 
> to a few hundred thousand dollars per unit.
> 
> Bob

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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

They are very common when you look at server UPS or larger units. There are 
literally hundreds of models to pick between. Prices are from roughly $400 up 
to a few hundred thousand dollars per unit.

Bob

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> 
> Since I have a 12V 100 A-H gelled electrolyte battery as a
> short-term backup (for those outages not worth firing up the generator),
> I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So far I don't see
> such a thing--do they exist?
> 
> Jeremy
> 
>> On Thursday, September 15, 2016, Bob Camp  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> It’s been quite a while since I bought anything other than a pure sine
>> UPS. They really aren’t as expensive
>> as they once were. You may find them a bit cheaper from outfits like
>> CyberPower than from APC. Sometimes
>> it s a bit tough to work out exactly what is or is not a pure sine wave
>> unit. If you want a full “always on” pure
>> sine device, they are still a bit expensive.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols > > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of
>> the output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave (i.e.,
>> expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave (aka
>> modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. Anyone
>> have experience?
>>> 
>>> A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like
>> another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have such
>> a need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.
>>> 
>>> Jeremy
>>> 
>>> 
 On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi
 
 A bigger question becomes:
 
 Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?
 
 These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone
>> area. Powering
 the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff
>> is one obvious
 answer.
 
 The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is
>> external to all
 the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack.
>> That way you have
 a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch
>> scattered about. Things like
 lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option
>> in an independent
 battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest
>> in something with real
 smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the
>> conversion to instrument
 voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12,
>> 24, or 48V and run with it.
 
 My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become
>> “don’t do it”. It makes
 them a *lot* lighter weight !!!
 
 Bob
 
 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com 
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[paul swed]

APC has made UPS that take both internal and external batteries.
My house runs on a 2KW APC in bad times and they seem to run just fine.
Granted the battery is a drop bigger then we are speaking of here and I use
a separate 55 amp precision charger. Love that telco stuff.
But these are the serious commercial grade units that I find surplus or
free. They use 48 volt packs. I was aware of the traditional run times on
many smaller UPS units so stay clear of them.
Suspect we have strayed away from the basic question so will stop this sort
of comment.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Gary E. Miller  wrote:

> Yo Jeremy!
>
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 15:13:59 -0700
> Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
>
> > I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So
> > far I don't see such a thing--do they exist?
>
> Not in the store, but they are easy to make.  I take consumer grade
> CyberPower sine wave supplies.  Remove the expensive and wimpy 12V9A
> gells cells.  Then I put two 6V deep cycle tractor batteries in a
> battery box and cable them into the UPS with #6 wire from old jumper
> cables.  To make it nice and neat, I fuse it with inline 50Amp fuses and
> 50Amp DC connectors.  Total cost about $200.
>
> I've been doing that for almost two decades and have 6 running now.
> I'll get two or three hours of backup from them.  Two weeks ago I had a
> 45 minute power outage, my network never hiccuped.  The batteries need
> replacing about every five years.
>
> APC UPS can't handle the longer runtime, but never had a problem with
> any version of CyberPower.
>
> Just be sure that everything you need to stay up is on a UPS, and that
> they are well within their load rating.
>
> I can post pictures if anyone wants.
>
> RGDS
> GARY
> 
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
> g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Martin A Flynn]

Look for a  POWERVAR model ABCE150-11M2.  It has an IEC plug and 
connector for 120 Volt in and out along with a yellow SB-50 connector 
for the 12 VDC battery connector.  Compatible with LiFePO4   and SLA 
battery chemistries



On 9/15/2016 6:21 PM, Mark Spencer wrote:

They do exist.   I've seen them in service at Telecom sites outside of the U.S. 
and Canada.   I believe there was a thread re this a few years ago ?

Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 15, 2016, at 3:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:

Since I have a 12V 100 A-H gelled electrolyte battery as a
short-term backup (for those outages not worth firing up the generator),
I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So far I don't see
such a thing--do they exist?

Jeremy


On Thursday, September 15, 2016, Bob Camp  wrote:

Hi

It’s been quite a while since I bought anything other than a pure sine
UPS. They really aren’t as expensive
as they once were. You may find them a bit cheaper from outfits like
CyberPower than from APC. Sometimes
it s a bit tough to work out exactly what is or is not a pure sine wave
unit. If you want a full “always on” pure
sine device, they are still a bit expensive.

Bob


On Sep 15, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols > wrote:

Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of

the output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave (i.e.,
expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave (aka
modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. Anyone
have experience?

A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like

another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have such
a need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.

Jeremy



On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi

A bigger question becomes:

Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?

These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone

area. Powering

the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff

is one obvious

answer.

The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is

external to all

the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack.

That way you have

a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch

scattered about. Things like

lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option

in an independent

battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest

in something with real

smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the

conversion to instrument

voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12,

24, or 48V and run with it.

My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become

“don’t do it”. It makes

them a *lot* lighter weight !!!

Bob

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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Gary E. Miller]

Yo Jeremy!

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 15:13:59 -0700
Jeremy Nichols  wrote:

> I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So
> far I don't see such a thing--do they exist?

Not in the store, but they are easy to make.  I take consumer grade
CyberPower sine wave supplies.  Remove the expensive and wimpy 12V9A
gells cells.  Then I put two 6V deep cycle tractor batteries in a
battery box and cable them into the UPS with #6 wire from old jumper
cables.  To make it nice and neat, I fuse it with inline 50Amp fuses and
50Amp DC connectors.  Total cost about $200.

I've been doing that for almost two decades and have 6 running now.
I'll get two or three hours of backup from them.  Two weeks ago I had a
45 minute power outage, my network never hiccuped.  The batteries need
replacing about every five years.

APC UPS can't handle the longer runtime, but never had a problem with
any version of CyberPower.

Just be sure that everything you need to stay up is on a UPS, and that
they are well within their load rating.

I can post pictures if anyone wants.

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588


pgpdJZp6896S0.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Mark Spencer]

Thanks I was  aware of Ni Fe batteries but have never seen them for sale at the 
local "battery store" where I buy batteries for my vehicles, time nuts and 
amateur radio pursuits (:

I view lead acid batteries (especially ones designed for in door use) as semi 
expendable for my various hobbies.I figure I got my monies worth from the 
ones backing up the HP105B and FTS 1050 as I am well on my way to 10 years of 
up time for those two devices. 

I tend to replace  batteries on general principles every 5 years or so or at 
least move them to a less demanding application.   (Ie. shuffle them from time 
nuts backup use to portable power use for amateur radio.)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 3:13 PM, Alexander Pummer  wrote:
> 
> if you deep discharge led acid batteries -- which are not made special for 
> deep discharge -- you will have to replace them quite often, on the other 
> hand Ni-Fe batteries you could short out, overcharge they are undisrtuktable 
> that is the reason why they are not produced any more in the US, they do not 
> fit into the American business-model, but phone companies, railway and 
> aviation still using them, you could still find old electrical forklifts with 
> Ni-Fe battery made by Edison Batteries in the sixties in the past century the 
> batteries are still fine. Tudor -- a led-acid battery producer -- purchased 
> Edison Batteries and closed down the formidable competitor
> 
> 73
> KL6UHN
> Alex
> 
>> On 9/15/2016 2:26 PM, Mark Spencer wrote:
>> Hi I've run my HP105B (with the old style oscillator) from AC power via a 
>> consumer grade UPS, 24 Vdc from a lead acid battery bank and briefly from 
>> the internal battery pack with out any notable changes in performance (that 
>> being said I can't measure phase noise so this observation may or may not be 
>> of use.)
>> 
>> I'm not to fussed over the internal Nicad pack and rely on an external 
>> battery bank in case I loose AC power for an extended time period.
>> 
>> During a two day outage my HP105B and FTS1050 ran nicely from a 100 AH 
>> battery bank but the batteries needed to be replaced shortly afterwards.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:13 AM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of the 
>>> output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave (i.e., 
>>> expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave (aka 
>>> modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. Anyone 
>>> have experience?
>>> 
>>> A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like 
>>> another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have such 
>>> a need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.
>>> 
>>> Jeremy
>>> 
>>> 
 On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi
 
 A bigger question becomes:
 
 Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?
 
 These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone 
 area. Powering
 the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff is 
 one obvious
 answer.
 
 The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is 
 external to all
 the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack. 
 That way you have
 a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch scattered 
 about. Things like
 lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option in 
 an independent
 battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest in 
 something with real
 smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the 
 conversion to instrument
 voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12, 24, 
 or 48V and run with it.
 
 My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become 
 “don’t do it”. It makes
 them a *lot* lighter weight !!!
 
 Bob
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
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>> 
>> 
>> -
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13022 - Release Date: 09/15/16
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Mark Spencer]

They do exist.   I've seen them in service at Telecom sites outside of the U.S. 
and Canada.   I believe there was a thread re this a few years ago ?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 3:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> 
> Since I have a 12V 100 A-H gelled electrolyte battery as a
> short-term backup (for those outages not worth firing up the generator),
> I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So far I don't see
> such a thing--do they exist?
> 
> Jeremy
> 
>> On Thursday, September 15, 2016, Bob Camp  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> It’s been quite a while since I bought anything other than a pure sine
>> UPS. They really aren’t as expensive
>> as they once were. You may find them a bit cheaper from outfits like
>> CyberPower than from APC. Sometimes
>> it s a bit tough to work out exactly what is or is not a pure sine wave
>> unit. If you want a full “always on” pure
>> sine device, they are still a bit expensive.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of
>> the output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave (i.e.,
>> expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave (aka
>> modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. Anyone
>> have experience?
>>> 
>>> A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like
>> another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have such
>> a need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.
>>> 
>>> Jeremy
>>> 
>>> 
 On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi
 
 A bigger question becomes:
 
 Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?
 
 These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone
>> area. Powering
 the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff
>> is one obvious
 answer.
 
 The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is
>> external to all
 the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack.
>> That way you have
 a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch
>> scattered about. Things like
 lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option
>> in an independent
 battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest
>> in something with real
 smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the
>> conversion to instrument
 voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12,
>> 24, or 48V and run with it.
 
 My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become
>> “don’t do it”. It makes
 them a *lot* lighter weight !!!
 
 Bob
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com 
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
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> Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Since I have a 12V 100 A-H gelled electrolyte battery as a
short-term backup (for those outages not worth firing up the generator),
I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So far I don't see
such a thing--do they exist?

Jeremy

On Thursday, September 15, 2016, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> It’s been quite a while since I bought anything other than a pure sine
> UPS. They really aren’t as expensive
> as they once were. You may find them a bit cheaper from outfits like
> CyberPower than from APC. Sometimes
> it s a bit tough to work out exactly what is or is not a pure sine wave
> unit. If you want a full “always on” pure
> sine device, they are still a bit expensive.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Sep 15, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols  > wrote:
> >
> > Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of
> the output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave (i.e.,
> expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave (aka
> modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. Anyone
> have experience?
> >
> > A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like
> another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have such
> a need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> > On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> A bigger question becomes:
> >>
> >> Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?
> >>
> >> These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone
> area. Powering
> >> the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff
> is one obvious
> >> answer.
> >>
> >> The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is
> external to all
> >> the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack.
> That way you have
> >> a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch
> scattered about. Things like
> >> lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option
> in an independent
> >> battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest
> in something with real
> >> smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the
> conversion to instrument
> >> voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12,
> 24, or 48V and run with it.
> >>
> >> My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become
> “don’t do it”. It makes
> >> them a *lot* lighter weight !!!
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com 
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Alexander Pummer]

if you deep discharge led acid batteries -- which are not made special 
for deep discharge -- you will have to replace them quite often, on the 
other hand Ni-Fe batteries you could short out, overcharge they are 
undisrtuktable that is the reason why they are not produced any more in 
the US, they do not fit into the American business-model, but phone 
companies, railway and aviation still using them, you could still find 
old electrical forklifts with Ni-Fe battery made by Edison Batteries in 
the sixties in the past century the batteries are still fine. Tudor -- a 
led-acid battery producer -- purchased Edison Batteries and closed down 
the formidable competitor


73
KL6UHN
Alex

On 9/15/2016 2:26 PM, Mark Spencer wrote:

Hi I've run my HP105B (with the old style oscillator) from AC power via a 
consumer grade UPS, 24 Vdc from a lead acid battery bank and briefly from the 
internal battery pack with out any notable changes in performance (that being 
said I can't measure phase noise so this observation may or may not be of use.)

I'm not to fussed over the internal Nicad pack and rely on an external battery 
bank in case I loose AC power for an extended time period.

During a two day outage my HP105B and FTS1050 ran nicely from a 100 AH battery 
bank but the batteries needed to be replaced shortly afterwards.

Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:13 AM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:

Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of the 
output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave (i.e., 
expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave (aka modified 
square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. Anyone have 
experience?

A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like another good 
alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have such a need, only that the 105B 
stay "on" regardless of power failures.

Jeremy



On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi

A bigger question becomes:

Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?

These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone area. 
Powering
the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff is one 
obvious
answer.

The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is external 
to all
the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack. That 
way you have
a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch scattered 
about. Things like
lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option in an 
independent
battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest in 
something with real
smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the conversion 
to instrument
voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12, 24, or 
48V and run with it.

My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become “don’t do 
it”. It makes
them a *lot* lighter weight !!!

Bob

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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

It’s been quite a while since I bought anything other than a pure sine UPS. 
They really aren’t as expensive 
as they once were. You may find them a bit cheaper from outfits like CyberPower 
than from APC. Sometimes
it s a bit tough to work out exactly what is or is not a pure sine wave unit. 
If you want a full “always on” pure
sine device, they are still a bit expensive. 

Bob

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> 
> Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of the 
> output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave (i.e., 
> expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave (aka 
> modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. Anyone 
> have experience?
> 
> A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like 
> another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have such a 
> need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.
> 
> Jeremy
> 
> 
> On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> A bigger question becomes:
>> 
>> Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?
>> 
>> These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone 
>> area. Powering
>> the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff is 
>> one obvious
>> answer.
>> 
>> The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is 
>> external to all
>> the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack. That 
>> way you have
>> a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch scattered 
>> about. Things like
>> lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option in 
>> an independent
>> battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest in 
>> something with real
>> smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the 
>> conversion to instrument
>> voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12, 24, 
>> or 48V and run with it.
>> 
>> My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become “don’t 
>> do it”. It makes
>> them a *lot* lighter weight !!!
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Mark Spencer]

Hi I've run my HP105B (with the old style oscillator) from AC power via a 
consumer grade UPS, 24 Vdc from a lead acid battery bank and briefly from the 
internal battery pack with out any notable changes in performance (that being 
said I can't measure phase noise so this observation may or may not be of use.)

I'm not to fussed over the internal Nicad pack and rely on an external battery 
bank in case I loose AC power for an extended time period.   

During a two day outage my HP105B and FTS1050 ran nicely from a 100 AH battery 
bank but the batteries needed to be replaced shortly afterwards.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:13 AM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> 
> Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of the 
> output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave (i.e., 
> expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave (aka 
> modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. Anyone 
> have experience?
> 
> A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like 
> another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have such a 
> need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.
> 
> Jeremy
> 
> 
>> On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> A bigger question becomes:
>> 
>> Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?
>> 
>> These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone 
>> area. Powering
>> the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff is 
>> one obvious
>> answer.
>> 
>> The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is 
>> external to all
>> the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack. That 
>> way you have
>> a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch scattered 
>> about. Things like
>> lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option in 
>> an independent
>> battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest in 
>> something with real
>> smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the 
>> conversion to instrument
>> voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12, 24, 
>> or 48V and run with it.
>> 
>> My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become “don’t 
>> do it”. It makes
>> them a *lot* lighter weight !!!
>> 
>> Bob
> 
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of 
the output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave 
(i.e., expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave 
(aka modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. 
Anyone have experience?


A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like 
another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have 
such a need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.


Jeremy


On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

A bigger question becomes:

Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?

These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone area. 
Powering
the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff is one 
obvious
answer.

The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is external 
to all
the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack. That 
way you have
a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch scattered 
about. Things like
lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option in an 
independent
battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest in 
something with real
smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the conversion 
to instrument
voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12, 24, or 
48V and run with it.

My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become “don’t do 
it”. It makes
them a *lot* lighter weight !!!

Bob




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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Brooke, I priced Ni-Cds and was not happy with the numbers: a set of 20 
D-size cells will cost me ~US$100 by the time I get them delivered. That 
plus the 8-pound weight penalty makes replacement Ni-Cd cells 
unattractive. (105A = 16 pounds, 105B = 24 pounds including the battery 
box and charging circuitry) There is no question that Ni-Cds are the 
answer for anyone attempting to restore a 105B for competition in the 
neighborhood Concours d'Elegance.


I do appreciate your work on the relative merits of the various Lithium 
types. I was afraid the existing charge circuitry in the 105B would not 
mate well with Lithium-anything batteries. Having twice set the house 
afire through assorted misadventures (thank goodness for smoke alarms 
and fire extinguishers),  I don't want to try for "Number 3".


Jeremy


On 9/15/2016 9:59 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Jeremy:

I'm currently having fun playing with various rechargeable battery 
related stuff  which includes Li-Ion cells.

http://www.prc68.com/I/BatTst.shtml#Resistor
The cells come in three configurations:
1. the raw flat top cell with optional tabs to allow easy soldering 
into a pack,
2. cell plus positive button cap which includes a Positive Temperature 
Coefficient (PTC) fuse and an over pressure vent,
3. fully protected, like 2, plus circuit that turns off the battery if 
charging and over voltage or loaded and under voltage. On these you 
can feel a wire/ribbon running from positive to negative under the 
shrink wrap and they are slightly longer.

These configurations are independent of the flavor of Li chemistry.

To go with any of the above you need a charger specific to the 
particular Li chemistry (the charging voltage is not the same) and if 
a pack you also need a either cells like 3 above or a protection 
circuit for the pack.  For optimum performance in addition a tap 
between each virtual cell (made of of parallel cells) so that the 
charge can be balanced and a charger that can do that.  This is not 
easy, witness the current recall of the Galaxy Note 7s phones.


I would just use modern Ni-Cad cells mainly because of the ease of 
charging and maintaining them and use the existing charging circuitry.
Li chemistry has advantages for portable equipment, but not so much 
for rack mounted equipment.




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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Scott McGrath]

I had my local BatteriesPlus rebuild my pack for my 105B about 4 years ago and 
it's still working well as I recall the cost was about 175. But I specified use 
best quality cells.  Plus they have the proper battery welder and test gear and 
they have more vendor clout to get consistently good cells as opposed to 
getting them mail order or through the well known auction sites

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 1:16 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> 
> Brookes comments are the facts you can not use simple charging circuits.
> But smart charging circuits seem to be available on various sites for low
> cost. It seems the RC modelers have helped us out.
> The thing I will say is I have ordered new nicad C cell batteries from
> major a major vendor and they did not last long at all for the cost I was
> quite disappointed.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
>> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Jeremy:
>> 
>> I'm currently having fun playing with various rechargeable battery related
>> stuff  which includes Li-Ion cells.
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/BatTst.shtml#Resistor
>> The cells come in three configurations:
>> 1. the raw flat top cell with optional tabs to allow easy soldering into a
>> pack,
>> 2. cell plus positive button cap which includes a Positive Temperature
>> Coefficient (PTC) fuse and an over pressure vent,
>> 3. fully protected, like 2, plus circuit that turns off the battery if
>> charging and over voltage or loaded and under voltage.  On these you can
>> feel a wire/ribbon running from positive to negative under the shrink wrap
>> and they are slightly longer.
>> These configurations are independent of the flavor of Li chemistry.
>> 
>> To go with any of the above you need a charger specific to the particular
>> Li chemistry (the charging voltage is not the same) and if a pack you also
>> need a either cells like 3 above or a protection circuit for the pack.  For
>> optimum performance in addition a tap between each virtual cell (made of of
>> parallel cells) so that the charge can be balanced and a charger that can
>> do that.  This is not easy, witness the current recall of the Galaxy Note
>> 7s phones.
>> 
>> I would just use modern Ni-Cad cells mainly because of the ease of
>> charging and maintaining them and use the existing charging circuitry.
>> Li chemistry has advantages for portable equipment, but not so much for
>> rack mounted equipment.
>> 
>> --
>> Have Fun,
>> 
>> Brooke Clarke
>> http://www.PRC68.com
>> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>> The lesser of evils is still evil.
>> 
>>  Original Message 
>> 
>>> Thanks, Brooke, I'll price new Ni-Cads. I wasn't thinking of lead-acid
>>> (gel
>>> cells) but rather lithium rechargeable, providing I can find a type that
>>> won't catch fire and will work with the 105B'scircuits.
>>> 
>>> Jeremy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016, Brooke Clarke 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Alex:
 
 Yes, I'm recommending Ni-Cad but NOT any acid type.
 
 --
 Have Fun,
 
 Brooke Clarke
 http://www.PRC68.com
 http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
 The lesser of evils is still evil.
 
  Original Message 
 
 Hi Brooke,
> 
> sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid,
> they
> have K-OH  kalium hidrioxid  [potassium hydroxide  for anglophone ] as
> electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in
> radios.
> 
> 73
> 
> KJ6UHN
> 
> Alex
> 
> On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
> 
> Hi Jeremy:
>> 
>> It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that
>> has electronics since if it vents the acid will etch the PCBs.
>> Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency
>> Standard because the oven no longer worked.
>> http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html
>> 
>> 
>> Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no
>> longer have a memory effect.  They are also very easy to charge, so
>> why not
>> just replace the old cells?
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
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>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions 

Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[paul swed]

Brookes comments are the facts you can not use simple charging circuits.
But smart charging circuits seem to be available on various sites for low
cost. It seems the RC modelers have helped us out.
The thing I will say is I have ordered new nicad C cell batteries from
major a major vendor and they did not last long at all for the cost I was
quite disappointed.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> Hi Jeremy:
>
> I'm currently having fun playing with various rechargeable battery related
> stuff  which includes Li-Ion cells.
> http://www.prc68.com/I/BatTst.shtml#Resistor
> The cells come in three configurations:
> 1. the raw flat top cell with optional tabs to allow easy soldering into a
> pack,
> 2. cell plus positive button cap which includes a Positive Temperature
> Coefficient (PTC) fuse and an over pressure vent,
> 3. fully protected, like 2, plus circuit that turns off the battery if
> charging and over voltage or loaded and under voltage.  On these you can
> feel a wire/ribbon running from positive to negative under the shrink wrap
> and they are slightly longer.
> These configurations are independent of the flavor of Li chemistry.
>
> To go with any of the above you need a charger specific to the particular
> Li chemistry (the charging voltage is not the same) and if a pack you also
> need a either cells like 3 above or a protection circuit for the pack.  For
> optimum performance in addition a tap between each virtual cell (made of of
> parallel cells) so that the charge can be balanced and a charger that can
> do that.  This is not easy, witness the current recall of the Galaxy Note
> 7s phones.
>
> I would just use modern Ni-Cad cells mainly because of the ease of
> charging and maintaining them and use the existing charging circuitry.
> Li chemistry has advantages for portable equipment, but not so much for
> rack mounted equipment.
>
> --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> The lesser of evils is still evil.
>
>  Original Message 
>
>> Thanks, Brooke, I'll price new Ni-Cads. I wasn't thinking of lead-acid
>> (gel
>> cells) but rather lithium rechargeable, providing I can find a type that
>> won't catch fire and will work with the 105B'scircuits.
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016, Brooke Clarke 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Alex:
>>>
>>> Yes, I'm recommending Ni-Cad but NOT any acid type.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Have Fun,
>>>
>>> Brooke Clarke
>>> http://www.PRC68.com
>>> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>>> The lesser of evils is still evil.
>>>
>>>  Original Message 
>>>
>>> Hi Brooke,

 sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid,
 they
 have K-OH  kalium hidrioxid  [potassium hydroxide  for anglophone ] as
 electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in
 radios.

 73

 KJ6UHN

 Alex

 On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

 Hi Jeremy:
>
> It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that
> has electronics since if it vents the acid will etch the PCBs.
> Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency
> Standard because the oven no longer worked.
> http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html
>
>
> Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no
> longer have a memory effect.  They are also very easy to charge, so
> why not
> just replace the old cells?
>
>
> ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
 ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.


 ___
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>>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

A bigger question becomes:

Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?

These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone area. 
Powering
the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff is one 
obvious 
answer. 

The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is external 
to all 
the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack. That 
way you have 
a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch scattered 
about. Things like
lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option in an 
independent 
battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest in 
something with real
smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the conversion 
to instrument 
voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12, 24, or 
48V and run with it. 

My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become “don’t do 
it”. It makes
them a *lot* lighter weight !!!

Bob

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jeremy:
> 
> I'm currently having fun playing with various rechargeable battery related 
> stuff  which includes Li-Ion cells.
> http://www.prc68.com/I/BatTst.shtml#Resistor
> The cells come in three configurations:
> 1. the raw flat top cell with optional tabs to allow easy soldering into a 
> pack,
> 2. cell plus positive button cap which includes a Positive Temperature 
> Coefficient (PTC) fuse and an over pressure vent,
> 3. fully protected, like 2, plus circuit that turns off the battery if 
> charging and over voltage or loaded and under voltage.  On these you can feel 
> a wire/ribbon running from positive to negative under the shrink wrap and 
> they are slightly longer.
> These configurations are independent of the flavor of Li chemistry.
> 
> To go with any of the above you need a charger specific to the particular Li 
> chemistry (the charging voltage is not the same) and if a pack you also need 
> a either cells like 3 above or a protection circuit for the pack.  For 
> optimum performance in addition a tap between each virtual cell (made of of 
> parallel cells) so that the charge can be balanced and a charger that can do 
> that.  This is not easy, witness the current recall of the Galaxy Note 7s 
> phones.
> 
> I would just use modern Ni-Cad cells mainly because of the ease of charging 
> and maintaining them and use the existing charging circuitry.
> Li chemistry has advantages for portable equipment, but not so much for rack 
> mounted equipment.
> 
> -- 
> Have Fun,
> 
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> The lesser of evils is still evil.
> 
>  Original Message 
>> Thanks, Brooke, I'll price new Ni-Cads. I wasn't thinking of lead-acid (gel
>> cells) but rather lithium rechargeable, providing I can find a type that
>> won't catch fire and will work with the 105B'scircuits.
>> 
>> Jeremy
>> 
>> 
>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Alex:
>>> 
>>> Yes, I'm recommending Ni-Cad but NOT any acid type.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Have Fun,
>>> 
>>> Brooke Clarke
>>> http://www.PRC68.com
>>> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>>> The lesser of evils is still evil.
>>> 
>>>  Original Message 
>>> 
 Hi Brooke,
 
 sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid, they
 have K-OH  kalium hidrioxid  [potassium hydroxide  for anglophone ] as
 electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in radios.
 
 73
 
 KJ6UHN
 
 Alex
 
 On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
 
> Hi Jeremy:
> 
> It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that
> has electronics since if it vents the acid will etch the PCBs.
> Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency
> Standard because the oven no longer worked.
> http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html
> 
> 
> Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no
> longer have a memory effect.  They are also very easy to charge, so why 
> not
> just replace the old cells?
> 
> 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
 ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 
 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>> 
> 
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> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 

Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Jeremy:

I'm currently having fun playing with various rechargeable battery related 
stuff  which includes Li-Ion cells.
http://www.prc68.com/I/BatTst.shtml#Resistor
The cells come in three configurations:
1. the raw flat top cell with optional tabs to allow easy soldering into a pack,
2. cell plus positive button cap which includes a Positive Temperature 
Coefficient (PTC) fuse and an over pressure vent,
3. fully protected, like 2, plus circuit that turns off the battery if charging and over voltage or loaded and under 
voltage.  On these you can feel a wire/ribbon running from positive to negative under the shrink wrap and they are 
slightly longer.

These configurations are independent of the flavor of Li chemistry.

To go with any of the above you need a charger specific to the particular Li chemistry (the charging voltage is not the 
same) and if a pack you also need a either cells like 3 above or a protection circuit for the pack.  For optimum 
performance in addition a tap between each virtual cell (made of of parallel cells) so that the charge can be balanced 
and a charger that can do that.  This is not easy, witness the current recall of the Galaxy Note 7s phones.


I would just use modern Ni-Cad cells mainly because of the ease of charging and maintaining them and use the existing 
charging circuitry.

Li chemistry has advantages for portable equipment, but not so much for rack 
mounted equipment.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 

Thanks, Brooke, I'll price new Ni-Cads. I wasn't thinking of lead-acid (gel
cells) but rather lithium rechargeable, providing I can find a type that
won't catch fire and will work with the 105B'scircuits.

Jeremy


On Wednesday, September 14, 2016, Brooke Clarke  wrote:


Hi Alex:

Yes, I'm recommending Ni-Cad but NOT any acid type.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 


Hi Brooke,

sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid, they
have K-OH  kalium hidrioxid  [potassium hydroxide  for anglophone ] as
electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in radios.

73

KJ6UHN

Alex

On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:


Hi Jeremy:

It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that
has electronics since if it vents the acid will etch the PCBs.
Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency
Standard because the oven no longer worked.
http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html


Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no
longer have a memory effect.  They are also very easy to charge, so why not
just replace the old cells?



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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thanks, Brooke, I'll price new Ni-Cads. I wasn't thinking of lead-acid (gel
cells) but rather lithium rechargeable, providing I can find a type that
won't catch fire and will work with the 105B'scircuits.

Jeremy


On Wednesday, September 14, 2016, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> Hi Alex:
>
> Yes, I'm recommending Ni-Cad but NOT any acid type.
>
> --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> The lesser of evils is still evil.
>
>  Original Message 
>
>> Hi Brooke,
>>
>> sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid, they
>> have K-OH  kalium hidrioxid  [potassium hydroxide  for anglophone ] as
>> electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in radios.
>>
>> 73
>>
>> KJ6UHN
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jeremy:
>>>
>>> It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that
>>> has electronics since if it vents the acid will etch the PCBs.
>>> Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency
>>> Standard because the oven no longer worked.
>>> http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no
>>> longer have a memory effect.  They are also very easy to charge, so why not
>>> just replace the old cells?
>>>
>>>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Alex:

Yes, I'm recommending Ni-Cad but NOT any acid type.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 

Hi Brooke,

sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid, they have K-OH  kalium hidrioxid  [potassium 
hydroxide  for anglophone ] as electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in radios.


73

KJ6UHN

Alex

On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Jeremy:

It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that has electronics since if it vents the acid 
will etch the PCBs.

Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency Standard 
because the oven no longer worked.
http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html


Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no longer have a memory effect.  They are also 
very easy to charge, so why not just replace the old cells?




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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Alexander Pummer]

Hi Brooke,

sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid, 
they have K-OH  kalium hidrioxid  [potassium hydroxide  for anglophone ] 
as electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in 
radios.


73

KJ6UHN

Alex

On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Jeremy:

It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that 
has electronics since if it vents the acid will etch the PCBs.
Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency 
Standard because the oven no longer worked.

http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html


Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no 
longer have a memory effect.  They are also very easy to charge, so 
why not just replace the old cells?




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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Jeremy:

It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that has electronics since if it vents the acid will 
etch the PCBs.

Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency Standard 
because the oven no longer worked.
http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html


Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no longer have a memory effect.  They are also very 
easy to charge, so why not just replace the old cells?


--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 
I recently acquired a nice HP-105B, serial prefix 1240A, and like Perry Sandeen (posted here 10 May 2016) was 
pleasantly surprised to find a 10811-type oscillator inside in place of the old blue oven. Well, the oscillator isn't 
actually labelled "10811" but has a label "Serial No. 3010A62646 / Hewlett Packard / Made in U.S.A. / R11 147K." So, 
this is essentially the same oscillator as Perry found in his 105B.


The oscillator works well although the meter reading for the 5 MHz output is low, about 30 instead of the expected 80 
(per the 105B manual for the 1240A series). The measured output is also low, about 1 Volt where 1.5 Volt is the 
expected minimum. Might this be due to the change from the old 105 crystal oven to the 10811?


What is the received wisdom on replacement of the previously-removed factory Ni-Cad pack? There are many small 12 Volt 
batteries available, two of which would easily fit into the space available and some of which might not even catch 
fire! Other options are an external battery+charger or even a UPS on the AC line. Opinions?


Jeremy / N6WFO


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[time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

I recently acquired a nice HP-105B, serial prefix 1240A, and like Perry 
Sandeen (posted here 10 May 2016) was pleasantly surprised to find a 
10811-type oscillator inside in place of the old blue oven. Well, the 
oscillator isn't actually labelled "10811" but has a label "Serial No. 
3010A62646 / Hewlett Packard / Made in U.S.A. / R11 147K." So, this is 
essentially the same oscillator as Perry found in his 105B.


The oscillator works well although the meter reading for the 5 MHz 
output is low, about 30 instead of the expected 80 (per the 105B manual 
for the 1240A series). The measured output is also low, about 1 Volt 
where 1.5 Volt is the expected minimum. Might this be due to the change 
from the old 105 crystal oven to the 10811?


What is the received wisdom on replacement of the previously-removed 
factory Ni-Cad pack? There are many small 12 Volt batteries available, 
two of which would easily fit into the space available and some of which 
might not even catch fire! Other options are an external battery+charger 
or even a UPS on the AC line. Opinions?


Jeremy / N6WFO


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[time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

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