Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
It is given somewhat indirectly. Initially plans was for 200 km. The final system map had 100 km and 400 km marks. Read the linked PDF. Cheers, Magnus On 07/12/2015 12:48 AM, Björn wrote: Did you check the jamming radius? div Originalmeddelande /divdivFrån: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org /divdivDatum:2015-07-11 18:00 (GMT+01:00) /divdivTill: time-nuts@febo.com /divdivKopia: mag...@rubidium.se /divdivRubrik: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK /divdiv /divHi, On 07/11/2015 03:18 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message CAPbEEQJxn+R5AvCenfyXjFU=WOjFbYxZd2EC_hX=c6muyev...@mail.gmail.com , ken hartman writes: the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.” The reason the ERNP wasn't published, was that it concluded that 40% of *all* benefits came from Loran-C, at a yearly cost only a fraction of a single Galileo launch vehicle. Someone should have dreamed up the aggregate robustness of eLoran, GALILEO and EGNOS. LORAN-C and eLORAN would be an interesting combination to GPS and GALILEO. Sweden essentially had it's own set of LORAN/Chayka transmitters, with a ever evolving jamming/spoofing ability. RT-02 Fredriksson was the system name, often just referred to as Fredriksson. http://www.antus.org/RT02.html http://www.fht.nu/fv_bilder_radio_rasandare_rt_02.html http://www.fht.nu/Dokument/Flygvapnet/flyg_publ_rapport_rt_02.pdf So much for jamming-resistant. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
I think Denmark will also cease operation of their one station in line with Norway and France. What is the plan for Germany and the UK - not enough stations for a full chain? New controlling station - since Lessay leaves? -- Björn div Originalmeddelande /divdivFrån: ken hartman k...@hartmans.org /divdivDatum:2015-07-10 22:46 (GMT+01:00) /divdivTill: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com /divdivRubrik: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK /divdiv /divfrom: http://gpsworld.com/eloran-progresses-toward-gps-back-up-role-in-u-s-europe/ “Both Norway and France have declared an intention to cease Loran transmissions at the end of 2015. Moreover, France intends to dismantle its Loran infrastructure in 2016. Arrangements for the commercial operation of the infrastructure are being investigated, but this depends on some form of regional agreement. The European Union appears to have no policy for resilient PNT, the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.” On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 7:14 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote: How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford Research FS700 work in the UK? I live about 60 km to the east of central London. Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK? I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something independent of GPS. Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals which are probably highly correlated. Dave. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
In message CAPbEEQJxn+R5AvCenfyXjFU=WOjFbYxZd2EC_hX=c6muyev...@mail.gmail.com , ken hartman writes: the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.” The reason the ERNP wasn't published, was that it concluded that 40% of *all* benefits came from Loran-C, at a yearly cost only a fraction of a single Galileo launch vehicle. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
On 10/07/15 21:46, ken hartman wrote: from: http://gpsworld.com/eloran-progresses-toward-gps-back-up-role-in-u-s-europe/ “Both Norway and France have declared an intention to cease Loran transmissions at the end of 2015. Moreover, France intends to dismantle its Loran infrastructure in 2016. Arrangements for the commercial operation of the infrastructure are being investigated, but this depends on some form of regional agreement. The European Union appears to have no policy for resilient PNT, the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.” Hmm.I knew about Norway (to be honest, the Noreweigan stations being so far away that I can't hear them anyway), but France ceasing transmissions is new. That might be interesting with Anthorn currently a slave to Lessay. I suspec the Arrangements for the commercial operation of the infrastructure are being investigated means France wants to privatise the operations. Anthorn is already privately operated. Hopefully a deal can be done Iain ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
In message 55a13dab.2030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: The reason the ERNP wasn't published, was that it concluded that 40% of *all* benefits came from Loran-C, at a yearly cost only a fraction of a single Galileo launch vehicle. Someone should have dreamed up the aggregate robustness of eLoran, GALILEO and EGNOS. That's exactly what the draft ERNP did. Then they did the math and figured that with GLONASS and GPS already being up there, Galileo didn't add nearly as much value as having an independent robust VLF backup for all the GNSS systems. Since a result which said that Galileo was surplus to requirements would have been totally unacceptable, they fudged around a bit. First they claimed that the enhanced Galileo signals would provide some value which GPS and GLONASS couldn't provide, but if you read the fine print in the notes, it basically boiled down to dual-band precision. Another fudge was to argue that EU could mandate that ships, planes and trucks used Galileo, whereas they could not mandate GPS or GLONASS, so having Galileo potentially improved transporation safety. If you remove those two fudges, Loran-C provided 60-70% of the benefit, with the rest split evenly between Galileo and AIS Sweden essentially had it's own set of LORAN/Chayka transmitters, with a ever evolving jamming/spoofing ability. RT-02 Fredriksson was the system name, often just referred to as Fredriksson. http://www.antus.org/RT02.html Interesting, never heard of that before... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
Did you check the jamming radius? div Originalmeddelande /divdivFrån: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org /divdivDatum:2015-07-11 18:00 (GMT+01:00) /divdivTill: time-nuts@febo.com /divdivKopia: mag...@rubidium.se /divdivRubrik: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK /divdiv /divHi, On 07/11/2015 03:18 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message CAPbEEQJxn+R5AvCenfyXjFU=WOjFbYxZd2EC_hX=c6muyev...@mail.gmail.com , ken hartman writes: the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.” The reason the ERNP wasn't published, was that it concluded that 40% of *all* benefits came from Loran-C, at a yearly cost only a fraction of a single Galileo launch vehicle. Someone should have dreamed up the aggregate robustness of eLoran, GALILEO and EGNOS. LORAN-C and eLORAN would be an interesting combination to GPS and GALILEO. Sweden essentially had it's own set of LORAN/Chayka transmitters, with a ever evolving jamming/spoofing ability. RT-02 Fredriksson was the system name, often just referred to as Fredriksson. http://www.antus.org/RT02.html http://www.fht.nu/fv_bilder_radio_rasandare_rt_02.html http://www.fht.nu/Dokument/Flygvapnet/flyg_publ_rapport_rt_02.pdf So much for jamming-resistant. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
Hi, On 07/11/2015 03:18 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message CAPbEEQJxn+R5AvCenfyXjFU=WOjFbYxZd2EC_hX=c6muyev...@mail.gmail.com , ken hartman writes: the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.” The reason the ERNP wasn't published, was that it concluded that 40% of *all* benefits came from Loran-C, at a yearly cost only a fraction of a single Galileo launch vehicle. Someone should have dreamed up the aggregate robustness of eLoran, GALILEO and EGNOS. LORAN-C and eLORAN would be an interesting combination to GPS and GALILEO. Sweden essentially had it's own set of LORAN/Chayka transmitters, with a ever evolving jamming/spoofing ability. RT-02 Fredriksson was the system name, often just referred to as Fredriksson. http://www.antus.org/RT02.html http://www.fht.nu/fv_bilder_radio_rasandare_rt_02.html http://www.fht.nu/Dokument/Flygvapnet/flyg_publ_rapport_rt_02.pdf So much for jamming-resistant. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford Research FS700 work in the UK? I live about 60 km to the east of central London. Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK? I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something independent of GPS. Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals which are probably highly correlated. Dave. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
Dave check with the Triniity House web site they are the sponsors of the Anthorn slave site, the master station is at Lessay on the St. Malo penninsular so should be strong. There is (or was) a full descrition of the option to GPSon the website. I believe there should be at least 5 years to run on the original 10 year contract. The transmission is eLoran, at bit like Loran-C with a DGPS. I think there is an extra pulse in the train, I dont think this will affect the receiver you quote. The 100kHz signal should be OK in daytime may will suffer some phase shifts at night at more extreme range. This should not be a problem at your range from Lessay. Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 1:14 PM Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford Research FS700 work in the UK? I live about 60 km to the east of central London. Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK? I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something independent of GPS. Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals which are probably highly correlated. Dave. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
Hi David On 10/07/15 13:14, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote: How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford Research FS700 work in the UK? I live about 60 km to the east of central London. My Austron 2100's lock on to Anthorn, Lessay, and Sylt. I'm in Coventry, about ~330km away from both Anthorn and Lessay Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK? Don't think it's going away. The UK is rolling out eLORAN, which I thought is backwards compatible with LORAN-C (I believe it uses the 9th pulse for data) What I'm having trouble finding is any references to GRI's for eLORAN - and I'm sure I saw one reference say that it didn't need them, so I'm not sure on it's timing use, or the ability to sync with UTC due to ToC Others, better versed than I might have more info. Iain ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
In message CANX10hBNdx82BawbHJ-DqbReEb3HH=rc2h4VckHx0Etfb=4...@mail.gmail.com , Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) writes: How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford Research FS700 work in the UK? I live about 60 km to the east of central London. It should work OK. Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK? I belive signals are currently assured until 2019. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
Dave, I'm afraid I can't give you a quantitative answer about LORAN-C, but I can say that eLORAN is your friend. It has recently been revived in the US and it's doing all right in Europe, UK included. The promise in general is 50 ns to UTC. UrsaNav make some receivers and Chronos (who are a big eLoran advocate) distribute them in the UK, along with their own product. I take it you don't already have the FS700? In that case I think it's definitely worth looking at eLORAN. Again, note that I'm also not using eLORAN at the moment, but I'm looking at it very closely as a GNSS alternative. Cheers, Wojciech -- - Wojciech Owczarek ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
Hi Loran should work fine in the UK as long as the European chains stay up and running. They don’t seem to be at any risk of shutting down at the moment. Bob On Jul 10, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote: How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford Research FS700 work in the UK? I live about 60 km to the east of central London. Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK? I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something independent of GPS. Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals which are probably highly correlated. Dave. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
Hi Dave: The quality of the signal goes down with distance from the transmitter. If you get a sledgehammer sounding signal then you'll get a good time fix, but if you can barely hear the signal then the quality will be poor. Middletown, California to Ukiah, California is strong, but any other station was weak. http://www.prc68.com/I/Loran-c.shtml Mail_Attachment -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote: How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford Research FS700 work in the UK? I live about 60 km to the east of central London. Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK? I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something independent of GPS. Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals which are probably highly correlated. Dave. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK
from: http://gpsworld.com/eloran-progresses-toward-gps-back-up-role-in-u-s-europe/ “Both Norway and France have declared an intention to cease Loran transmissions at the end of 2015. Moreover, France intends to dismantle its Loran infrastructure in 2016. Arrangements for the commercial operation of the infrastructure are being investigated, but this depends on some form of regional agreement. The European Union appears to have no policy for resilient PNT, the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.” On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 7:14 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote: How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford Research FS700 work in the UK? I live about 60 km to the east of central London. Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK? I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something independent of GPS. Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals which are probably highly correlated. Dave. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
