Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Adrian Godwin]

On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 9:26 AM, Steve Wiseman  wrote:

>
> There are mailing lists for this stuff, chaps - openpnp, firepick,
> versatronics, plenty of others. All full of people finding out that,
> like everything, it's trickier than you first think. See you over
> there, let time nuts be time nuts?
>

One such forum is http://electricstuff.co.uk/forum/ . Lots of other good
stuff on Mike's site & youtube stream too.
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Chris Albertson]

OpenPNP has a set of drivers for each class of PNP machine.  One of the
drivers outputs LinuxCNC g-code,  They already have other drivers for other
kinds of machines, maybe 8 or 10 in total.

Yes you could translate centroid files to G-code but that is exactly what
openPNP does.  It does a little more because it figures out where the parts
and PCB are on the table using vision.  openPNP can pick up loose parts and
place them on a PCB that is dropped by hand at a random place on the work
table.  Open PNP will locate marks on the PCB.  It looks good because you
don't need build jigs to exactly position either the parts or the board.

The way your software might fit into this is to make a "universal driver".
Your driver would have to provide the standard API to openPNP and then
would output whatever it takes to control one the the 80+ machines you know
how to control.   But LinuxCNC does this too.  I reads up G-code then
drives almost any machine

OpenPNP does need a centroid file.  these can be CSV files or there are a
file CAD filers it can read, one of them is Eagle and some others

On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:

> If OpenPnp generates a gcode file for a particular CNC controller (say
> Linux CNC) my program can easily translate it into something pretty much
> any other CNC machine can read (including some machines that have not
> existed for over 40 years).  It would not be hard to add the ability to
> read a standard layout centroid file and convert it into gcode.  The
> problem there is specifying all the machine specific stuff like
> feeder/board locations, pick sequences, component rotation.
> One of the file formats it can read is Gerber.  I use it to convert paste
> layer Gerber files to gcode for laser cutting stencils.  It also outputs
> excellent Gerber renderings as .PDF or .SVG files (or .DXF).  It is one of
> the very few programs out there that can handle the new "X2" extensions to
> Gerber.  I've used it for doing toner transfer boards.It can also
> convert Excellon or Sieb drill files to gcode, pdf, dxf, postscript,
> Adobe Illustrator, etc.
> --
>
> >  Good of you to volunteer for the next re-write of OpenPnP …:)
>
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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[time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Mark Sims]

If OpenPnp generates a gcode file for a particular CNC controller (say Linux 
CNC) my program can easily translate it into something pretty much any other 
CNC machine can read (including some machines that have not existed for over 40 
years).  It would not be hard to add the ability to read a standard layout 
centroid file and convert it into gcode.  The problem there is specifying all 
the machine specific stuff like feeder/board locations, pick sequences, 
component rotation.
One of the file formats it can read is Gerber.  I use it to convert paste layer 
Gerber files to gcode for laser cutting stencils.  It also outputs excellent 
Gerber renderings as .PDF or .SVG files (or .DXF).  It is one of the very few 
programs out there that can handle the new "X2" extensions to Gerber.  I've 
used it for doing toner transfer boards.It can also convert Excellon or 
Sieb drill files to gcode, pdf, dxf, postscript, Adobe Illustrator, etc.
--

>  Good of you to volunteer for the next re-write of OpenPnP …:)


  
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The vision stuff comes in a few ways:

1) Your board needs to be aligned to the machine. There may or may not be 
accurate holes in the board to do this. 
Doing it with holes still leaves you with the need to get the board location 
“into” the machine’s coordinate system.

2) Tapes come in fairly fixed widths. The pockets on them likewise are not as 
custom as you might think. An open loop 
system may or may not grab a part accurately as a result. With lead free 
solder, surface tension may not be as big a
help as it once was. 

3) For large / fine pitch IC’s the orientation and location process becomes 
even more difficult. Trays are not very accurate. 
Surface tension compared to the weight of the part does not have the “pull” it 
does on an 0402 resistor. 

Do you *need* vision in all cases? Of course not. That’s why they sell machines 
without vision. Doing stuff at 0.5 mm pitch
and below fully open loop can be a major pain without vision. 


> On Jun 25, 2016, at 12:28 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> I have seen pick and place systems built around  CNC machines (same applies 
> to 3D printers).  The reel strips are fed through a slotted guide.  The 
> pickup head has a finger (or some use the pickup nozzle... a flat tipped 
> hypodermic needle) that is used to advance the reel.  It drops down into the 
> component pocket on the reel (or the index holes) and pulls the strip forward 
> one pocket length.  This movement also peels back the tape cover strip.  The 
> nozzle moves to the center of the pocket,  sucks up the component,  rotates 
> it,  moves to the position on the PCB, and places the component.
> 
> Translating the design files into gcode commands for the required head 
> movements is a fairly trivial bit of code (says the man (me) who wrote a 
> 90,000+ line C program that can translate between the dialects of over 100 
> different CNC machines, 3D printers, and CAD programs).

Good of you to volunteer for the next re-write of OpenPnP …:)

Bob

> 
> Vision system is nice,  but a decent CNC is more than accurate enough for 
> 0402 sized parts.  Again, surface tension is your friend.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Steve Wiseman]

On 25 June 2016 at 05:28, Mark Sims  wrote:

> Vision system is nice,  but a decent CNC is more than accurate enough for 
> 0402 sized parts.  Again, surface tension is your friend.

There's often more positional slop within the tape pocket than the pin
pitch, for components more tricky than 0402s. Feeder tape squirms,
parts swivel a bit as you pick them up. Cameras are cheap.

There are mailing lists for this stuff, chaps - openpnp, firepick,
versatronics, plenty of others. All full of people finding out that,
like everything, it's trickier than you first think. See you over
there, let time nuts be time nuts?

Steve
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[time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Mark Sims]

I have seen pick and place systems built around  CNC machines (same applies to 
3D printers).  The reel strips are fed through a slotted guide.  The pickup 
head has a finger (or some use the pickup nozzle... a flat tipped hypodermic 
needle) that is used to advance the reel.  It drops down into the component 
pocket on the reel (or the index holes) and pulls the strip forward one pocket 
length.  This movement also peels back the tape cover strip.  The nozzle moves 
to the center of the pocket,  sucks up the component,  rotates it,  moves to 
the position on the PCB, and places the component.

Translating the design files into gcode commands for the required head 
movements is a fairly trivial bit of code (says the man (me) who wrote a 
90,000+ line C program that can translate between the dialects of over 100 
different CNC machines, 3D printers, and CAD programs).

Vision system is nice,  but a decent CNC is more than accurate enough for 0402 
sized parts.  Again, surface tension is your friend.

  
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Attila Kinali]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 12:41:05 -0500
Oz-in-DFW  wrote:

> On 6/24/2016 8:23 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> >  The advantage of "professional"
> > companies like Alktech over "hobbyist" companies like macrofab is,
> > that you get full professional support while the price does not differ much.
> > E.g. while macrofab only does 4 layer boards if you specially ask for it,
> > for Alktech getting any number of layers is standard procedure.

> Just to correct a misunderstanding. Macrofab, Small Batch Assembly, and
> PCB:NG are all professionals, not hobbyist companies. they focus on
> small runs at low cost, but they are manufacturing professionals with
> commensurate results.

Oops... sorry. That was a bad choice of words. What I meant was that
some companies targed hobbyists while other target professional customers.
These two customer groups have slightly different needs and requirements
for cost and provided service. And these differences are visible when
buying from those companies

Attila Kinali

-- 
Malek's Law:
Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Chris Albertson]

On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Don Latham  wrote:
> I do not see why a small pick and place assist system could not be built on a 
> 3-d printer.

You are not the first to think of this.   But the problem is
  1) moving the reels of parts,
  2) programming the machine.  Translating the PCB design files into g-code.
  3) Building a vision system.  With very small parts you really can't
run open loop



-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Adrian Godwin]

On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:

>
> The trick is to use semi-manual pick machines for low volumes.
> Ie machines that you do not program, but guide by hand. This allows
> faster and more accurate placing of components than would be possible
> with a pure manual process, but does not have any of the complexity
> of the fully automated solutions. The components do not need to be
> 100% exactly centered, as the surface tension of the molten solder will
> pull the parts into place (which is also the reason why the copper inside
> the solder resist mask should be symmetric).
>

For what it's worth, I have a manual / guided pick and place machine
available. UK pickup only unless you're really keen ! Off-list please if
anyone's interested.

-adrian
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[time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Mark Sims]

I've done a over one  hundred boards with a Kapton stencil without any problems 
(0603 size parts)  and 50 boards with a stencil cut out of vellum paper (a 
plasticized paper available at craft stores,  red cuts very well with 405nm 
lasers) by my home-made laser cutter head for a desktop CNC mill.   I've never 
worn one out or ripped one... YMMV.   I'd probably go with stainless steel for 
something with tiny BGA's,  but have done chip-scale IC packages with paper 
stencils.  It's only recently that small stainless steel stencils have become 
easily available and cheap.
---
Laser cut Kapton are fine for a few boards - up to 5 or so.  You start
seeing the effects of use after six or eight and steel is clearly a
value. . I use them for most protos. 

  
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Camp]

Hi

A “low cost” auto pick and place does have some things in common with a 3D 
printer:

Drive is by stepper motors
Micro stepping stepper motor drivers are used
Belt drive is pretty common
Tube support and circular ball bearings are generally used
You have X, Y and Z drive
Very custom software to drive them that may or may not be open source
A setup and calibration process that may not be a lot of fun
A requirement to do some trial runs before you do anything important

There are generally a few things different between my 3D printer and a simple 
pick and place:

The drive is on both sides of the X / Y region
The X/Y is *much* larger than the Z
There is a Z rotation (4th axis) on the pick and place. 
My 3D printer has one head, two heads is about as low as they go on pick and 
place 
The parts feeders are a big part of the pick and place machine and there are a 
lot of them (even on a simple one). 
The base plate is a lot heavier duty (more rigid)
Vacuum to do the parts pickup
Pressure to blow off a stuck nozzle 
Some means to detect that a part has been picked up 
Interchangeable pick heads (the head size needs to match the part size to some 
degree)
A “small” (“desktop”) pick and place is a meter square. Most 3D printers are 
much smaller. 

— As you move up, the pick and place *might* have —

A camera to check parts on the placement head to properly align them (“up 
camera”) 
A camera to check the board and align to it (“down camera”)
Four or more placement heads.
Enough variety in feeder widths to match the size of the reels you have :)

No matter what you do for a pick and place, you will need:

Some way to mount the board on the machine 
Mounting holes (or whatever) on the board to match up with the machine
A design allowance that keeps parts out of the area contacted by the mounting 
setup
Fiducial marks to line things up that are of a type the machine can work with

There are lots of details….The 3D printer takes cad files and generates motion 
information.
The pick and place take the output of a PCB layout program and generates motion 
information.
It goes on and on ...

Bob










> On Jun 24, 2016, at 2:59 PM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:
> 
> Don Latham said
> to Discussion
> I do not see why a small pick and place assist system could not be built on
> a 3-d printer.
> 
> 
> Lots of problems to be solved...
> 
> How do you take loose parts or cut tape or tape reels and get the right
> part out, and into the chuck, oriented in the right direction?
> How many different kinds of parts, sizes, shapes, pin counts, IC
> footprints, can you handle at once?
> How do you know it is the correct part?
> How do you know where the "+" end, or "pin 1" is?
> How do you know that there actually is a part in the chuck?
> How do you know the part in the chuck is oriented the way you expected it?
> How do you know where the footprint on the circuit board is located? (to a
> few thousandths.)
> How do you know the part left the chuck and ended up where you intended it
> to be?
> 
> Commercial systems have answers to all of these questions. In many cases
> involving intelligent vision systems.
> 
> Once they are all answered, then you have a PCB unique set-up / programming
> effort to instruct the placement machine all about today's specific board
> and parts list to be assembled.
> 
> I can usually build one or two boards by hand about as fast as an engineer
> can do the placement machine specific PCB programming and verification.
> 
> --- Graham
> 
> ==
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Don Latham  wrote:
> 
>> I do not see why a small pick and place assist system could not be built
>> on a 3-d printer.
>> Don
>> 
>>> On Jun 24, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:16:34 -0500
>>> Oz-in-DFW  wrote:
>>> 
 1. Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
   "small" ones are more than 1/2 a bench.)
 2. Even the best ones require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
   using them continuously each new run is a new and different
   experience.  Often unpleasant for the first few scrapped boards.
>>> 
>>> The trick is to use semi-manual pick machines for low volumes.
>>> Ie machines that you do not program, but guide by hand. This allows
>>> faster and more accurate placing of components than would be possible
>>> with a pure manual process, but does not have any of the complexity
>>> of the fully automated solutions. The components do not need to be
>>> 100% exactly centered, as the surface tension of the molten solder will
>>> pull the parts into place (which is also the reason why the copper inside
>>> the solder resist mask should be symmetric).
>>> 
>>> These machines are still all pretty expensive (IMHO, the cheapest
>>> start from around 2kusd IIRC), but with the continuous growth of the
>> hobbyist
>>> market, and that market becomming more 

Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[David]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 20:01:24 +0100, you wrote:

>...
>
>I definitely concur with the 'make it SMT as much as possible' plan -
>pin-mount stuff is a pain. Also, QFN is far preferable to QFP, as
>catalogue suppliers don't always manage to ship fine-pitch stuff
>without bending legs in one direction or another. Reworking a duff QFP
>(or fine-pitch SOP) can take as long as assembling a whole board. With
>small volumes, there's no real statistical process control, you just
>do what you think will work, fix any defects, and update the big
>logbook of results.
>
>...

I keep wishing J-lead PLCCs were still available.  With them you had
the options of direct soldering their 0.050" lead spacing or using a
sockets with a pin spacing of 0.100".
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Steve Wiseman]

On 24 June 2016 at 14:23, Attila Kinali  wrote:

> Unlike what most people seem to think, small batches of PCBs have always
> been a business for some assembly companies.

For my sins, I am one of those... (Cambridge, UK).
Yes - semi-manual assembly is the way it goes, especially for the
active parts. It's just not worth teaching the machines and loading
the parts for small runs. Typically, passives with more than 20
instances I'll load onto the machines, then do the rest by hand on a
manual placer.

Stencils - not any more. I use a dispensing robot, which is fine down
to 0.4mm pin pitch as long as the ambient temperature is right (35oC,
quite deeply unpleasant to share a room with). No more cleaning
stencils, throwing away paste, or wishing that the customer-supplied
stencil wasn't unhelpful in one of a thousand ways. It also means that
I can go from CAD data to built boards in less than a day, if I ply my
local PCB house with enough cash...

I definitely concur with the 'make it SMT as much as possible' plan -
pin-mount stuff is a pain. Also, QFN is far preferable to QFP, as
catalogue suppliers don't always manage to ship fine-pitch stuff
without bending legs in one direction or another. Reworking a duff QFP
(or fine-pitch SOP) can take as long as assembling a whole board. With
small volumes, there's no real statistical process control, you just
do what you think will work, fix any defects, and update the big
logbook of results.
Hacked reflow ovens have a place, but there are some parts that simply
won't solder with IR - the heat load to get the balls to melt is more
than it takes to kill the part. LTC's modules are especially bad, but
any BGA runs a risk. I'm a recent and thorough convert to vapour phase
(which can also be done in a homebrew manner).

Also - Please overbuy components!
those extra few 0402 resistors cost you a penny. Finding the one that
pinged off or the machine threw on the spitback pile - impossible.

Sorry about the offtopic. (I'm also a moderate frequency nut and EMC
chamber owner, so am starting to get nutty about RF amplitudes, which
is a whole new game...)

Steve
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Graham / KE9H]

Don Latham said
to Discussion
I do not see why a small pick and place assist system could not be built on
a 3-d printer.


Lots of problems to be solved...

How do you take loose parts or cut tape or tape reels and get the right
part out, and into the chuck, oriented in the right direction?
How many different kinds of parts, sizes, shapes, pin counts, IC
footprints, can you handle at once?
How do you know it is the correct part?
How do you know where the "+" end, or "pin 1" is?
How do you know that there actually is a part in the chuck?
How do you know the part in the chuck is oriented the way you expected it?
How do you know where the footprint on the circuit board is located? (to a
few thousandths.)
How do you know the part left the chuck and ended up where you intended it
to be?

Commercial systems have answers to all of these questions. In many cases
involving intelligent vision systems.

Once they are all answered, then you have a PCB unique set-up / programming
effort to instruct the placement machine all about today's specific board
and parts list to be assembled.

I can usually build one or two boards by hand about as fast as an engineer
can do the placement machine specific PCB programming and verification.

--- Graham

==






On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Don Latham  wrote:

> I do not see why a small pick and place assist system could not be built
> on a 3-d printer.
> Don
>
> > On Jun 24, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:16:34 -0500
> > Oz-in-DFW  wrote:
> >
> >> 1. Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
> >>"small" ones are more than 1/2 a bench.)
> >> 2. Even the best ones require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
> >>using them continuously each new run is a new and different
> >>experience.  Often unpleasant for the first few scrapped boards.
> >
> > The trick is to use semi-manual pick machines for low volumes.
> > Ie machines that you do not program, but guide by hand. This allows
> > faster and more accurate placing of components than would be possible
> > with a pure manual process, but does not have any of the complexity
> > of the fully automated solutions. The components do not need to be
> > 100% exactly centered, as the surface tension of the molten solder will
> > pull the parts into place (which is also the reason why the copper inside
> > the solder resist mask should be symmetric).
> >
> > These machines are still all pretty expensive (IMHO, the cheapest
> > start from around 2kusd IIRC), but with the continuous growth of the
> hobbyist
> > market, and that market becomming more and more professional/proficient,
> > the production volumes of these  machines will for sure rise and thus
> become
> > cheaper. I am pretty sure that we will see hobbyist marketed pick
> systems
> > build upon open source based control systems in the next couple of years.
> > There are already a couple of DIY systems out there, that look quite
> good.
> > e.g
> http://vpapanik.blogspot.de/2012/11/low-budget-manual-pick-place.html
> > http://www.briandorey.com/post/Diy-Manual-Pick-and-Place-Machine-part-1
> >
> >
> >> Solder stencils make **all** the difference.
> >
> > Oh, yes! Please, do not try syringe dispensers! These fail more often
> than
> > they work. Also pay the additional couple of bucks to get a steel stencil
> > instead of a kapton one. Especially if you make more than one or two
> boards
> > or those with fine pitch.
> >
> >   Attila Kinali
> >
> > --
> > It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> > the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> > use without that foundation.
> > -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
> Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
> Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
> Virgil
> ---
> "Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"
>
> Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
> Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
> Huson, MT, 59846
> mailing address:  POBox 404
> Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
>
> VOX 406-626-4304
> CEL 406-241-5093
> Skype: buffler2
> www.lightningforensics.com 
> www.sixmilesystems.com 
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If you are doing a board with a few hundred parts on it (as earlier mentioned). 
And have designed
a “3D printer” pick and place that runs one reel at a time. And are running the 
printer slow to keep
everything from going all over the place. And have a manual reel advance (no 
feeder) …. 

I can easily see you getting into a “put it away for today” situation. You can 
beat a simple system like that 
(speed wise) with a good manual vacuum pickup and some modest pre-organization 
of parts. 

Bob

> On Jun 24, 2016, at 9:45 AM, Oz-in-DFW  wrote:
> 
> On 6/23/2016 9:36 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> The gotcha with “really slow” is that once you print the solder paste on the 
>> board, it has a very 
>> limited “open air” life. If you don’t get the board done fairly quickly, 
>> your soldering quality can
>> suffer quite a bit.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
> For most of the paste formulations I've had no trouble with several
> hours of working time. So you need to get at it, but really don't end up
> hurting yourself, but can't leave it overnight. .
> 
> -- 
> mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
> Oz
> POB 93167 
> Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Oz-in-DFW]

On 6/24/2016 8:23 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:28:15 + (UTC)
> Bob Stewart  wrote:
Lotsa stuff deleted
>> One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.
>> What about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs
>> have about 120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors.
>> Is there a service out there that will populate boards with SMT components
>> for small orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.
>  The advantage of "professional"
> companies like Alktech over "hobbyist" companies like macrofab is,
> that you get full professional support while the price does not differ much.
> E.g. while macrofab only does 4 layer boards if you specially ask for it,
> for Alktech getting any number of layers is standard procedure.
>
>   Attila Kinali
>
Just to correct a misunderstanding. Macrofab, Small Batch Assembly, and
PCB:NG are all professionals, not hobbyist companies. they focus on
small runs at low cost, but they are manufacturing professionals with
commensurate results.


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Oz
POB 93167 
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 



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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Oz-in-DFW]

On 6/24/2016 9:32 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:16:34 -0500
> Oz-in-DFW  wrote:
>> Solder stencils make **all** the difference.
> Oh, yes! Please, do not try syringe dispensers! These fail more often than
> they work. Also pay the additional couple of bucks to get a steel stencil
> instead of a kapton one. Especially if you make more than one or two boards
> or those with fine pitch.
>
>   Attila Kinali
>
Laser cut Kapton are fine for a few boards - up to 5 or so.  You start
seeing the effects of use after six or eight and steel is clearly a
value. . I use them for most protos. 

If I'm doing anything really fine that would drive me to steel on
resolution alone, I pay someone else to do it.

Oshstencils are cheap, and they will do 4 mill Stainless Steel for 2X
Kapton cost.  Deal if I'm doing more than 5 boards.


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Oz
POB 93167 
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi:

For IC pitches of 0.050" (1.27mm) hand soldering works fine, even for my vision 
when a stereo microscope is used.
Elmer's glue to hold the chips is place.

Getting boards from ExpressPCB that have solder mask helps to prevent bridging.

Here is an example:
http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.


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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Don Latham]

I do not see why a small pick and place assist system could not be built on a 
3-d printer.
Don

> On Jun 24, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:16:34 -0500
> Oz-in-DFW  wrote:
> 
>> 1. Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
>>"small" ones are more than 1/2 a bench.)
>> 2. Even the best ones require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
>>using them continuously each new run is a new and different
>>experience.  Often unpleasant for the first few scrapped boards.
> 
> The trick is to use semi-manual pick machines for low volumes.
> Ie machines that you do not program, but guide by hand. This allows
> faster and more accurate placing of components than would be possible
> with a pure manual process, but does not have any of the complexity
> of the fully automated solutions. The components do not need to be
> 100% exactly centered, as the surface tension of the molten solder will
> pull the parts into place (which is also the reason why the copper inside
> the solder resist mask should be symmetric).
> 
> These machines are still all pretty expensive (IMHO, the cheapest
> start from around 2kusd IIRC), but with the continuous growth of the hobbyist
> market, and that market becomming more and more professional/proficient,
> the production volumes of these  machines will for sure rise and thus become
> cheaper. I am pretty sure that we will see hobbyist marketed pick 
> systems
> build upon open source based control systems in the next couple of years.
> There are already a couple of DIY systems out there, that look quite good.
> e.g http://vpapanik.blogspot.de/2012/11/low-budget-manual-pick-place.html
> http://www.briandorey.com/post/Diy-Manual-Pick-and-Place-Machine-part-1
> 
> 
>> Solder stencils make **all** the difference.
> 
> Oh, yes! Please, do not try syringe dispensers! These fail more often than
> they work. Also pay the additional couple of bucks to get a steel stencil
> instead of a kapton one. Especially if you make more than one or two boards
> or those with fine pitch.
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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> 

Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com 
www.sixmilesystems.com 
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:16:34 -0500
Oz-in-DFW  wrote:

>  1. Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
> "small" ones are more than 1/2 a bench.)
>  2. Even the best ones require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
> using them continuously each new run is a new and different
> experience.  Often unpleasant for the first few scrapped boards.

The trick is to use semi-manual pick machines for low volumes.
Ie machines that you do not program, but guide by hand. This allows
faster and more accurate placing of components than would be possible
with a pure manual process, but does not have any of the complexity
of the fully automated solutions. The components do not need to be
100% exactly centered, as the surface tension of the molten solder will
pull the parts into place (which is also the reason why the copper inside
the solder resist mask should be symmetric).

These machines are still all pretty expensive (IMHO, the cheapest
start from around 2kusd IIRC), but with the continuous growth of the hobbyist
market, and that market becomming more and more professional/proficient,
the production volumes of these  machines will for sure rise and thus become
cheaper. I am pretty sure that we will see hobbyist marketed pick systems
build upon open source based control systems in the next couple of years.
There are already a couple of DIY systems out there, that look quite good.
e.g http://vpapanik.blogspot.de/2012/11/low-budget-manual-pick-place.html
http://www.briandorey.com/post/Diy-Manual-Pick-and-Place-Machine-part-1


> Solder stencils make **all** the difference.

Oh, yes! Please, do not try syringe dispensers! These fail more often than
they work. Also pay the additional couple of bucks to get a steel stencil
instead of a kapton one. Especially if you make more than one or two boards
or those with fine pitch.

Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Oz-in-DFW]

On 6/23/2016 9:36 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> The gotcha with “really slow” is that once you print the solder paste on the 
> board, it has a very 
> limited “open air” life. If you don’t get the board done fairly quickly, your 
> soldering quality can
> suffer quite a bit.
>
> Bob
>
For most of the paste formulations I've had no trouble with several
hours of working time. So you need to get at it, but really don't end up
hurting yourself, but can't leave it overnight. .

-- 
mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167 
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 



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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:28:15 + (UTC)
Bob Stewart  wrote:

> One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.
> What about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs
> have about 120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors.
> Is there a service out there that will populate boards with SMT components
> for small orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.

Unlike what most people seem to think, small batches of PCBs have always
been a business for some assembly companies. I know a couple of those
in Europe that are specialized in small volumes (<100pcs per batch) and
reject anything larger. If you google for "PCB prototype assembly" you should
find some in your area. The more electronic industry you have in your area,
the more you will find those assembly fabs. Especially if your electronic
industry consists of mostly small, specialized companies. There are also
some inter-regional companies specialized on hobbyist market, like macrofab.

The prices vary a bit, depending on where you live, but usually
using 2*(BOM cost) and/or (BOM Cost)+300 are good estimates for
how much it will cost to build a PCB. "Going east" might also be
a good strategy. I know one fab in Estonia (Alktech www.alktech.com)
that does offer pretty competitive prices, while giving better quality
than what you usually get from china. The advantage of "professional"
companies like Alktech over "hobbyist" companies like macrofab is,
that you get full professional support while the price does not differ much.
E.g. while macrofab only does 4 layer boards if you specially ask for it,
for Alktech getting any number of layers is standard procedure.

If you want to keep prices low, then the first thing you should do is
to minimize your BOM: The fewer different parts you need, the better.
Ie if you have 200R, 100R and 50R resistors in your design, replace the
200R and the 50R by series and parallel connected 100R resistor. The cost
of a single resistor (transistor, chip, ...) is usually much lower than
having to handle another reel/tray. Especially if the fab has to go onto
the bigger pick machine because the number of feeders needed didn't
fit on the small machine.

The second cost saving thing is to minimize through hole components. Use
SMD as much as you can. It doesn't cost much to place an SMD component.
After the pick and place (which can be manual work on small volumes) the
soldering is done in an oven. But soldering a THD part means that someone
has to solder it by hand, as it would be too expensive to perpare a machine
for this. You can take this even further to let the fab only populate the
SMD parts and populate the THD parts yourself, which then only costs a bit
of time. (In my experience, THD solder jobs vary quite a lot more in quality
than one would expect. So doing it yourself might even improve quality).


The last way to minimize cost is to use common components and give the
fab the freedom to choose replacement parts. This gives the fab the
opportunity to choose parts that they already have on stock or buy
in large volumes, which makes them a lot cheaper. But means that you
specify the parts such that they are only as restrictive as you need.
I.e. if most of your reistors can be 5%, then specify them as 5% and
not as 1%. Even odd percent numbers are ok, though usually frowned upon,
as the company will choose the next better rating they have on stock.

Oh: and one additional hint: do not get the PCBs yourself. Let the fab
buy them. Then they will be panelized in the way they like it the best.
There is of course a little price hit if they buy it, but it usually pays
off when taking NRE costs into account.

As for doing assembly yourself: Yes it's possible and a good way to save
money. But be prepared to experiment a lot until you get consistent
and good results. Unless you have some serious experience in machine
soldering you will need a couple of runs in the beginning to figure
out how to do it right. And some things only show after a couple of
months/years after soldering (like borderline cold solders, cracks,
whiskers, popcorn packages etc) that depend on the quality of solder
and settings of the solder process. Also, IR solder ovens do not work
well with anything that casts a shadow on the solder joint, like QFN
or BGA parts.. or even high parts (alu capacitors or connectors)
next to low parts (IC's, resistors). That's the main reason why industry
pretty much stopped using (pure) IR ovens for production and switched
to convection type and vapor phase ovens. 

An alterantive to the ubiquitous IR ovens are rework-heater plates. 
These are basically just electrical stoves with temperature control
and a PCB holder ontop. They are ment as helpers for reworking, when
large ground planes confound any attempt of using a soldering iron.
By heating up the PCB to 50-100°C it is easy to get the last few
degrees with an iron. These heating plates can go 

Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Oz-in-DFW]

Disclaimer:  I've not used any of these yet.  New style assembly houses
are MUCH cheaper than traditional proto shops.  The ones I'm planning on
trying are:

Macrofab (Houston)  https://macrofab.com/

pcb:ng http://pcb.ng/index.html (currently in beta with **deep**
discounts.   $1/sq in + BoM cost

Small Batch Assembly  http://www.smallbatchassembly.com/

All of these guys have their advocates. All will do under 10 pcs.I
plan on running a similar job through each of them and seeing what I find.

On 6/23/2016 2:28 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:
> One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.  What 
> about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs have about 
> 120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a 
> service out there that will populate boards with SMT components for small 
> orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.
>
> Bob - AE6RV
>
>


-- 
mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167 
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 



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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Stewart]

I've given thought to stencils, but without building something to prop my hands 
on, I'll smear the paste.  So, I place up to 10 or 15 parts at a time and use 
the hot-air gun.  To each his own, I guess.

Bob

---
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info


On Thu, 6/23/16, Oz-in-DFW <li...@ozindfw.net> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping 
board
 To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>
 Date: Thursday, June 23, 2016, 8:16 PM
 
 I'll second this, and
 suggest you consider:
 
  1.
 Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for
 the
     "small" ones are more
 than 1/2 a bench.)
  2. Even the best ones
 require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
     using them continuously each new run is a
 new and different
     experience.  Often
 unpleasant for the first few scrapped boards.
  3. You can only place a limited list of parts
 for a run.  If you have
     one more part
 than the machine will accomodate, its a second (or
     third, or fourth pass.)
 
 4. They are all high maintenance in addition to requiring
 tuning. A lot
     of the maintenance is
 based on calendar, not operation time.  Even
     and idle machine requires time if you
 actually want to use it
     eventually.
  5. Most are closed software loops. You work
 around their poor (or un)
     documented
 formats and bugs.
  6. There are really cheap
 small batch assembly houses coming online
  
   that will do under 10 units. See Macrofab, PC:NG, Small
 Batch
     Assembly are fairly quick
 turns.
 
 If all you are doing
 is protos, hand placement, mylar solder stencils
 (see Oshstencils and others) and a hacked
 toaster oven are a good
 solution. The $500
 Chinese reflow ovens seem to require more (re)work
 that a $50 toaster oven.  If you use stencils
 to place the solder, part
 placement is as
 fast (or faster) than through hole parts. I have to use
 a microscope.  I'm shaky enough that  may
 need to built some Waldoes
 soon.  ;-)
 
 I just did six moderately
 complex boards (no fine pitch parts) and that
 was 2-3 too many for me.
 
 Solder stencils make **all** the difference.
 
 Oz, in DFW
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Oz-in-DFW]

I'll second this, and suggest you consider:

 1. Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
"small" ones are more than 1/2 a bench.)
 2. Even the best ones require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
using them continuously each new run is a new and different
experience.  Often unpleasant for the first few scrapped boards.
 3. You can only place a limited list of parts for a run.  If you have
one more part than the machine will accomodate, its a second (or
third, or fourth pass.)
 4. They are all high maintenance in addition to requiring tuning. A lot
of the maintenance is based on calendar, not operation time.  Even
and idle machine requires time if you actually want to use it
eventually.
 5. Most are closed software loops. You work around their poor (or un)
documented formats and bugs.
 6. There are really cheap small batch assembly houses coming online
that will do under 10 units. See Macrofab, PC:NG, Small Batch
Assembly are fairly quick turns.

If all you are doing is protos, hand placement, mylar solder stencils
(see Oshstencils and others) and a hacked toaster oven are a good
solution. The $500 Chinese reflow ovens seem to require more (re)work
that a $50 toaster oven.  If you use stencils to place the solder, part
placement is as fast (or faster) than through hole parts. I have to use
a microscope.  I'm shaky enough that  may need to built some Waldoes
soon.  ;-)

I just did six moderately complex boards (no fine pitch parts) and that
was 2-3 too many for me.

Solder stencils make **all** the difference.

Oz, in DFW

On 6/23/2016 6:21 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> You can indeed get a pick and place for under a thousand dollars. I wold not 
> use one of them, but they do exist. It all depends on how much of an 
> “advantage” you want over a hand place approach. A half way decent screen 
> printer will run $500. Some sort of reflow setup will be a couple hundred. 
> You can go cheap on the printer and get it down to $100 or so. A rebuilt 
> toaster oven will run $20 or less. It all is a matter of how much hassle / 
> how tight pitch you want to deal with.
>
> Bob
>
>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:38 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Bob et al,
>>
>> This is about what I expected, but I had to ask.  I wonder how long it'll 
>> take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a 
>> couple hundred?  That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics 
>> business.
>>
>> Anyway, I've had my say and we can let this die.  Thanks for the responses!
>>
>> Bob

-- 
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Oz
POB 93167 
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 



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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The gotcha with “really slow” is that once you print the solder paste on the 
board, it has a very 
limited “open air” life. If you don’t get the board done fairly quickly, your 
soldering quality can
suffer quite a bit.

Bob


> On Jun 23, 2016, at 8:58 PM, Chris Albertson  
> wrote:
> 
> This is a very important topic for anyone who wants to build state of
> the art electronic today.   You can't continue to live in the 1970s
> using DIP parts with 0.1 inch leads.  So how to make small batches of
> custom designs.
> 
> The pick and place machine could be very inexpensive if you are
> willing to let it run very slow using only one or two really of parts
> at a time and work on small boards.   The RapRap type 3d printers
> don't cost much to build.  A pick and place is not much more than a 3d
> printer with a different nozzle.You can find people doing this on
> other email lists that deal with robots
> 
> For most projects these SBCs (arduino, Pi 3, BBB,...) allow you to
> build almost anything without need of a custom PCB.
> 
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
>> Thanks Bob et al,
>> 
>> This is about what I expected, but I had to ask.  I wonder how long it'll 
>> take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a 
>> couple hundred?  That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics 
>> business.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Graham / KE9H]

We use
"Advanced Assembly" in Colorado for prototype assembly.
http://aa-pcbassembly.com/

For just one or two boards, it is faster to hand solder the parts, as long
as no BGA's or similar.

If complex soldering like BGAs, or more than three boards, we use a proto
assembly house.

--- Graham

==

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 7:58 PM, Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> This is a very important topic for anyone who wants to build state of
> the art electronic today.   You can't continue to live in the 1970s
> using DIP parts with 0.1 inch leads.  So how to make small batches of
> custom designs.
>
> The pick and place machine could be very inexpensive if you are
> willing to let it run very slow using only one or two really of parts
> at a time and work on small boards.   The RapRap type 3d printers
> don't cost much to build.  A pick and place is not much more than a 3d
> printer with a different nozzle.You can find people doing this on
> other email lists that deal with robots
>
> For most projects these SBCs (arduino, Pi 3, BBB,...) allow you to
> build almost anything without need of a custom PCB.
>
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> > Thanks Bob et al,
> >
> > This is about what I expected, but I had to ask.  I wonder how long
> it'll take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to
> become a couple hundred?  That would be the final hurdle for the tiny
> electronics business.
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Chris Albertson]

This is a very important topic for anyone who wants to build state of
the art electronic today.   You can't continue to live in the 1970s
using DIP parts with 0.1 inch leads.  So how to make small batches of
custom designs.

The pick and place machine could be very inexpensive if you are
willing to let it run very slow using only one or two really of parts
at a time and work on small boards.   The RapRap type 3d printers
don't cost much to build.  A pick and place is not much more than a 3d
printer with a different nozzle.You can find people doing this on
other email lists that deal with robots

For most projects these SBCs (arduino, Pi 3, BBB,...) allow you to
build almost anything without need of a custom PCB.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> Thanks Bob et al,
>
> This is about what I expected, but I had to ask.  I wonder how long it'll 
> take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a 
> couple hundred?  That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics 
> business.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Henry Hallam]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts
 wrote:
> It all sort of depends on what you call “reasonable.” PNP assembly is a bit 
> like PCB fab in that there are rather large set-up costs and the per-unit 
> cost after that is quite low, which favors volume.
>
> Any way you slice it, I’d expect that 10 boards is too small a number for it 
> to be economical. I’ve done 10-20 *panels* of boards at a time with SBA, and 
> that’s worked out ok, but that’s amortizing the cost over a couple hundred 
> units at a time.

Tempo Automation in San Francisco is trying to fill this gap in the
market for prototype quantities of boards.  I used them a couple of
years ago and they did a good job for a good price.  Looking at their
website now (http://www.tempoautomation.com/) it appears they've
expanded into fabbing the board for you as well as assembling it.

Henry
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Camp]

Hi

You can indeed get a pick and place for under a thousand dollars. I wold not 
use one of them, but they do exist. It all depends on how much of an 
“advantage” you want over a hand place approach. A half way decent screen 
printer will run $500. Some sort of reflow setup will be a couple hundred. You 
can go cheap on the printer and get it down to $100 or so. A rebuilt toaster 
oven will run $20 or less. It all is a matter of how much hassle / how tight 
pitch you want to deal with.

Bob

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:38 PM, Bob Stewart <b...@evoria.net> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Bob et al,
> 
> This is about what I expected, but I had to ask.  I wonder how long it'll 
> take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a 
> couple hundred?  That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics 
> business.
> 
> Anyway, I've had my say and we can let this die.  Thanks for the responses!
> 
> Bob
> 
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
> 
> 
> On Thu, 6/23/16, Bob Camp <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping 
> board
> To: "Bob Stewart" <b...@evoria.net>, "Discussion of precise time and 
> frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Date: Thursday, June 23, 2016, 5:27 PM
> 
> Hi
> 
> Around here, assuming:
> 
> 1) You supply all the parts on full reels with
> leaders 
> 2) There is no hand assembly
> work
> 3) You already have framed stencils
> that are the correct size for their gear
> 4)
> You have multiple proper solder and placement fiducials  on
> both sides
> 5) The boards are designed to
> mount on their gear
> 6) Your parts and design
> rules fit their gear and rules. 
> 7) No
> electrical test, visual inspect only. 
> 8)
> Best effort only, If the part does not solder etc, you
> replace it on your time.
> 
> You can get various places to look at a batch
> for $500 to $1000. If your stencils !=
> their
> stencils figure $100 to $200 each. 
> 
> If you want to ship things a ways, you can save
> a bit of money. Shipping plus packing 
> always seems to be a bit expensive. 
> 
> By far the best approach is to
> get all of their rules before you start a board layout.
> Then
> do it in whatever arrays / panel size
> they are set up for and all the other little details. 
> 
> This all starts to make a lot
> more sense to the local outfits when you are talking a few
> hundred boards. 
> Even more so if it is a few
> hundred boards a month, every month for a few years. 
> 
> 
> 
> Some math:
> 
> 120
> parts on 10 boards is 1200 parts. A good machine will do
> that in < 6 minutes. Setting up the machine, 
> loading and unloading the machine, pulling
> boards on and off the machine, programming the whole thing,
> 
> validating everything ….. that’s an
> afternoon’s worth of work (maybe more) and maybe an hour
> of down time
> on the machine. 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course for a few thousand dollars you can
> buy your own pick and place machine …. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Bob Stewart
> <b...@evoria.net>
> wrote:
>> 
>> One more
> related question before this topic dies, if you don't
> mind.  What about the other side of building: stuffing the
> boards.  My GPSDOs have about 120 parts per board, plus
> some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a service
> out there that will populate boards with SMT components for
> small orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.
>> 
>> Bob - AE6RV
>> 
>> 
> ---
>> GFS GPSDO list:
>> 
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
>> 
>> 
> 
>> On Wed, 6/22/16, Clint Jay <cjaysh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> 
>> Subject:
> Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and
> frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>,
> "Nick Sayer" <nsa...@kfu.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016, 6:06 PM
>> 
>> Life is so much
> easier
>> now,  dirtypcb is a great
> service,  I have a pile of
>> boards here
> from them which are far greater
>> quality
> than anything I could
>> hope to
>> produce at home or even in the lab I used
> to have. 
>> They're also
>> better quality 

Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[jimlux]

On 6/23/16 2:56 PM, jimlux wrote:

On 6/23/16 12:28 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:

One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.
What about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs
have about 120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA
connectors.  Is there a service out there that will populate boards
with SMT components for small orders at a reasonable price?  Small is
10 boards.



I've used Screaming Circuits in Oregon as an assembly house. They've
done ok for us, but I have no idea if they are inexpensive in your context.

The biggest boards I've done with them have been 4x6", but they have SMA
and MMCX connectors, maybe 100 components, mostly SMT, but a few DIP
carriers.




I went and looked up some typical quotes from Screaming Circuits.. we're 
typically doing a 4-20 boards, and to place <100 parts runs us about 
$20-50 per board (if I had to guess about their "setup vs each" pricing 
based on the different volumes I had quoted for the same board, I'd say 
setup is in the $250-300 range, and assy is in the $15-20/board range.


Not everything on these boards is machine placeable, and there's some 
hand assembly required (like soldering pins into a carrier, and then 
soldering the carrier onto the board).  There's also some shielding cans 
that may or may not be machine placed and soldered.


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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Stewart]

Thanks Bob et al,

This is about what I expected, but I had to ask.  I wonder how long it'll take 
for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a couple 
hundred?  That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics business.

Anyway, I've had my say and we can let this die.  Thanks for the responses!

Bob

---
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info


On Thu, 6/23/16, Bob Camp <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping 
board
 To: "Bob Stewart" <b...@evoria.net>, "Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>
 Date: Thursday, June 23, 2016, 5:27 PM
 
 Hi
 
 Around here, assuming:
 
 1) You supply all the parts on full reels with
 leaders 
 2) There is no hand assembly
 work
 3) You already have framed stencils
 that are the correct size for their gear
 4)
 You have multiple proper solder and placement fiducials  on
 both sides
 5) The boards are designed to
 mount on their gear
 6) Your parts and design
 rules fit their gear and rules. 
 7) No
 electrical test, visual inspect only. 
 8)
 Best effort only, If the part does not solder etc, you
 replace it on your time.
 
 You can get various places to look at a batch
 for $500 to $1000. If your stencils !=
 their
 stencils figure $100 to $200 each. 
 
 If you want to ship things a ways, you can save
 a bit of money. Shipping plus packing 
 always seems to be a bit expensive. 
 
 By far the best approach is to
 get all of their rules before you start a board layout.
 Then
 do it in whatever arrays / panel size
 they are set up for and all the other little details. 
 
 This all starts to make a lot
 more sense to the local outfits when you are talking a few
 hundred boards. 
 Even more so if it is a few
 hundred boards a month, every month for a few years. 
 
 
 
 Some math:
 
 120
 parts on 10 boards is 1200 parts. A good machine will do
 that in < 6 minutes. Setting up the machine, 
 loading and unloading the machine, pulling
 boards on and off the machine, programming the whole thing,
 
 validating everything ….. that’s an
 afternoon’s worth of work (maybe more) and maybe an hour
 of down time
 on the machine. 
 
 
 
 Of course for a few thousand dollars you can
 buy your own pick and place machine …. 
 
 Bob
 
  
 > On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Bob Stewart
 <b...@evoria.net>
 wrote:
 > 
 > One more
 related question before this topic dies, if you don't
 mind.  What about the other side of building: stuffing the
 boards.  My GPSDOs have about 120 parts per board, plus
 some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a service
 out there that will populate boards with SMT components for
 small orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.
 > 
 > Bob - AE6RV
 > 
 >
 
---
 > GFS GPSDO list:
 >
 groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
 > 
 >
 
 > On Wed, 6/22/16, Clint Jay <cjaysh...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 > 
 > Subject:
 Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board
 > To: "Discussion of precise time and
 frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>,
 "Nick Sayer" <nsa...@kfu.com>
 > Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016, 6:06 PM
 > 
 > Life is so much
 easier
 > now,  dirtypcb is a great
 service,  I have a pile of
 > boards here
 from them which are far greater
 > quality
 than anything I could
 > hope to
 > produce at home or even in the lab I used
 to have. 
 > They're also
 > better quality than any of
 > the local board houses I used in the
 past.
 > 
 > Having said
 that,  I did hand
 > manufacture fifty
 single sided boards from
 > photo laminate
 to completed product in one
 > weekend
 using a Dremel drill
 > press for
 > somewhere around four thousand holes and
 hand soldering
 > every
 > component so it was definitely
 > possible
 > On 23 Jun
 2016 00:01, "Nick
 > Sayer via
 time-nuts" <time-nuts@febo.com>
 > wrote:
 >
 ___
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 > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 > and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Around here, assuming:

1) You supply all the parts on full reels with leaders 
2) There is no hand assembly work
3) You already have framed stencils that are the correct size for their gear
4) You have multiple proper solder and placement fiducials  on both sides
5) The boards are designed to mount on their gear
6) Your parts and design rules fit their gear and rules. 
7) No electrical test, visual inspect only. 
8) Best effort only, If the part does not solder etc, you replace it on your 
time.

You can get various places to look at a batch for $500 to $1000. If your 
stencils !=
their stencils figure $100 to $200 each. 

If you want to ship things a ways, you can save a bit of money. Shipping plus 
packing 
always seems to be a bit expensive. 

By far the best approach is to get all of their rules before you start a board 
layout. Then
do it in whatever arrays / panel size they are set up for and all the other 
little details. 

This all starts to make a lot more sense to the local outfits when you are 
talking a few hundred boards. 
Even more so if it is a few hundred boards a month, every month for a few 
years. 



Some math:

120 parts on 10 boards is 1200 parts. A good machine will do that in < 6 
minutes. Setting up the machine, 
loading and unloading the machine, pulling boards on and off the machine, 
programming the whole thing, 
validating everything ….. that’s an afternoon’s worth of work (maybe more) and 
maybe an hour of down time
on the machine. 



Of course for a few thousand dollars you can buy your own pick and place 
machine …. 

Bob

 
> On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.  What 
> about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs have about 
> 120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a 
> service out there that will populate boards with SMT components for small 
> orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.
> 
> Bob - AE6RV
> 
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
> 
> 
> On Wed, 6/22/16, Clint Jay  wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> , "Nick Sayer" 
> Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016, 6:06 PM
> 
> Life is so much easier
> now,  dirtypcb is a great service,  I have a pile of
> boards here from them which are far greater
> quality than anything I could
> hope to
> produce at home or even in the lab I used to have. 
> They're also
> better quality than any of
> the local board houses I used in the past.
> 
> Having said that,  I did hand
> manufacture fifty single sided boards from
> photo laminate to completed product in one
> weekend using a Dremel drill
> press for
> somewhere around four thousand holes and hand soldering
> every
> component so it was definitely
> possible
> On 23 Jun 2016 00:01, "Nick
> Sayer via time-nuts" 
> wrote:
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[jimlux]

On 6/23/16 12:28 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:

One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.  What 
about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs have about 
120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a 
service out there that will populate boards with SMT components for small 
orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.



I've used Screaming Circuits in Oregon as an assembly house. They've 
done ok for us, but I have no idea if they are inexpensive in your context.


The biggest boards I've done with them have been 4x6", but they have SMA 
and MMCX connectors, maybe 100 components, mostly SMT, but a few DIP 
carriers.



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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Nick Sayer via time-nuts]

I’ve done quite a bit of this. My assembler of choice is Small Batch Assembly.

It all sort of depends on what you call “reasonable.” PNP assembly is a bit 
like PCB fab in that there are rather large set-up costs and the per-unit cost 
after that is quite low, which favors volume.

Any way you slice it, I’d expect that 10 boards is too small a number for it to 
be economical. I’ve done 10-20 *panels* of boards at a time with SBA, and 
that’s worked out ok, but that’s amortizing the cost over a couple hundred 
units at a time.

SBA has a free quote widget on their site that will give you a ballpark number 
given your BOM size, board and panel count. I particularly like that there’s no 
hook from that widget to a greasy salesman trying to glad-hand you. :)

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.  What 
> about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs have about 
> 120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a 
> service out there that will populate boards with SMT components for small 
> orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.
> 
> Bob - AE6RV
> 
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
> 
> 
> On Wed, 6/22/16, Clint Jay  wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> , "Nick Sayer" 
> Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016, 6:06 PM
> 
> Life is so much easier
> now,  dirtypcb is a great service,  I have a pile of
> boards here from them which are far greater
> quality than anything I could
> hope to
> produce at home or even in the lab I used to have. 
> They're also
> better quality than any of
> the local board houses I used in the past.
> 
> Having said that,  I did hand
> manufacture fifty single sided boards from
> photo laminate to completed product in one
> weekend using a Dremel drill
> press for
> somewhere around four thousand holes and hand soldering
> every
> component so it was definitely
> possible
> On 23 Jun 2016 00:01, "Nick
> Sayer via time-nuts" 
> wrote:
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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[time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Stewart]

One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.  What 
about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs have about 
120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a 
service out there that will populate boards with SMT components for small 
orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.

Bob - AE6RV

---
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On Wed, 6/22/16, Clint Jay  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board
 To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
, "Nick Sayer" 
 Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016, 6:06 PM
 
 Life is so much easier
 now,  dirtypcb is a great service,  I have a pile of
 boards here from them which are far greater
 quality than anything I could
 hope to
 produce at home or even in the lab I used to have. 
 They're also
 better quality than any of
 the local board houses I used in the past.
 
 Having said that,  I did hand
 manufacture fifty single sided boards from
 photo laminate to completed product in one
 weekend using a Dremel drill
 press for
 somewhere around four thousand holes and hand soldering
 every
 component so it was definitely
 possible
 On 23 Jun 2016 00:01, "Nick
 Sayer via time-nuts" 
 wrote:
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