Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
On 15 August 2010 17:01, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks for looking at my data that was what I was fishing for all along :-) I was looking at the article: A Small Dual Mixer Time Difference (DMTD) Clock Measuring System W.J. Riley Richard posted And thinking it would be nice to do the DSS and Mixer boards to go with the pictic II. I have been speaking to Bill Riley about doing this myself and he has sent me all the board designs, software, etc. to enable one to be built. I can ask him if he is OK if I distribute this if you wish. Steve Or changing the Pictic II to use the Acam TDC GP2 Time to Digital Converter; 2 channel w/65 ps resolution now under $30. as Bruce suggested a while back. My wants sure exceed my cans ;-) Stanley - Original Message From: John Miles jmi...@pop.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 11:25:44 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data John glad you are getting good results and have something to compare to. Back to me who doesn't have any knowns but lots of guessing. Attached is a run with a box cover over the pictic, run is shorter ~ 800 seconds but the box does look like it helps. I need to do a lot more testing but sometimes I just get excited :-) I imported your .txt file alongside the traces I captured. Assuming it was taken with 1 Hz on both START and STOP, it looks like the attached. You're getting the exact sort of results that I see if I feed both the START and STOP inputs at 1 Hz. My guess is that the onboard oscillator limits the performance in that case, since it has a lot of time to drift during the measurement if the two pulses occur close to 1 second apart. Even the 5370B looks much worse if driven with 1 Hz on both inputs than it does with 1 Hz at START and 10 MHz at STOP. So I think you're basically up and running OK. When I get around to trying a better clock, I'll also go back and see if the 1-pps x2 performance improves. It would be great if the next spin of the board could include sine-to-CMOS shapers for the input channels as well as an external clock input, for people who are working directly with RF signals as opposed to 1-pps. -- john, KE5FX - Original Message From: John Miles jmi...@pop.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 10:19:46 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data A few preliminary measurements here (I'm working on getting some software support together): http://www.ke5fx.com/pictic.htm -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Stanley Reynolds Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 7:12 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data My guess as to what the data may indicate is performance of the 10 Mhz 20PPM PICTIC internal oscillator, need to repeat test with precision 10Mhz and auto calibrate off. Fatness of the line/width maybe PICTIC error. Note graph seems to show me leaving the room and returning via the outside door. Not sure what the ~100 sec oscillations are, need to check a/c cycle time. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
In Plotter, use the SERIES menu/dropdown to scale the data. As an example for DMTD, I have to multiply the data times 1e-6: Gave the new data a name, in the top of the dropdown, then in this case, enter this formula, in the bottom of the dropdown; X1*1e-6 where X1 is the data WHen it gets thru look at the Column 1 box on the right and you will see a check box with your new data. Uncheck column 1 and Plotter will show the new data. You can now process or save the new data. On 8/15/2010 12:25 AM, John Miles wrote: Thanks for looking at my data that was what I was fishing for all along :-) You can import it the same way, actually -- install the TimeLab beta at www.ke5fx.com/timelab/setup.exe and use File-Import ASCII Phase Data to read your file. Set Nominal Frequency to 1, Numeric Field # to whichever field contains your time data (2 for capture.txt), and the 'x' field to 250E-12 to convert to seconds. That should give you the same graph I posted. Ulrich Bangert's Plotter application is also good for this sort of thing, although I don't immediately see how to make it scale the data by 250E-12 to convert it to seconds. I was looking at the article: A Small Dual Mixer Time Difference (DMTD) Clock Measuring System W.J. Riley Richard posted And thinking it would be nice to do the DSS and Mixer boards to go with the pictic II. Or changing the Pictic II to use the Acam TDC GP2 Time to Digital Converter; 2 channel w/65 ps resolution now under $30. as Bruce suggested a while back. My wants sure exceed my cans ;-) Once lower measurement floors are desired and the system grows in complexity and cost, other approaches besides TICs start to look more appealing. For what it does, though, this is a really nice little board. -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
Hi If I remember correctly, the inboard clock was chosen to be a good source of noise during the calibration process. It's certainly not a high stability clock. Bob On Aug 15, 2010, at 12:25 AM, John Miles jmi...@pop.net wrote: John glad you are getting good results and have something to compare to. Back to me who doesn't have any knowns but lots of guessing. Attached is a run with a box cover over the pictic, run is shorter ~ 800 seconds but the box does look like it helps. I need to do a lot more testing but sometimes I just get excited :-) I imported your .txt file alongside the traces I captured. Assuming it was taken with 1 Hz on both START and STOP, it looks like the attached. You're getting the exact sort of results that I see if I feed both the START and STOP inputs at 1 Hz. My guess is that the onboard oscillator limits the performance in that case, since it has a lot of time to drift during the measurement if the two pulses occur close to 1 second apart. Even the 5370B looks much worse if driven with 1 Hz on both inputs than it does with 1 Hz at START and 10 MHz at STOP. So I think you're basically up and running OK. When I get around to trying a better clock, I'll also go back and see if the 1-pps x2 performance improves. It would be great if the next spin of the board could include sine-to-CMOS shapers for the input channels as well as an external clock input, for people who are working directly with RF signals as opposed to 1-pps. -- john, KE5FX - Original Message From: John Miles jmi...@pop.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 10:19:46 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data A few preliminary measurements here (I'm working on getting some software support together): http://www.ke5fx.com/pictic.htm -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Stanley Reynolds Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 7:12 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data My guess as to what the data may indicate is performance of the 10 Mhz 20PPM PICTIC internal oscillator, need to repeat test with precision 10Mhz and auto calibrate off. Fatness of the line/width maybe PICTIC error. Note graph seems to show me leaving the room and returning via the outside door. Not sure what the ~100 sec oscillations are, need to check a/c cycle time. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. capture2_freq.gif capture2_adev.gif ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
- Original Message From: Steve Rooke sar10...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sun, August 15, 2010 7:05:40 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data On 15 August 2010 17:01, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks for looking at my data that was what I was fishing for all along :-) I was looking at the article: A Small Dual Mixer Time Difference (DMTD) Clock Measuring System W.J. Riley Richard posted And thinking it would be nice to do the DSS and Mixer boards to go with the pictic II. I have been speaking to Bill Riley about doing this myself and he has sent me all the board designs, software, etc. to enable one to be built. I can ask him if he is OK if I distribute this if you wish. Steve snip Please do, I would be willing to do the PC boards if the demand makes if possible. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
On 16 August 2010 01:51, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: - Original Message From: Steve Rooke sar10...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sun, August 15, 2010 7:05:40 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data On 15 August 2010 17:01, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks for looking at my data that was what I was fishing for all along :-) I was looking at the article: A Small Dual Mixer Time Difference (DMTD) Clock Measuring System W.J. Riley Richard posted And thinking it would be nice to do the DSS and Mixer boards to go with the pictic II. I have been speaking to Bill Riley about doing this myself and he has sent me all the board designs, software, etc. to enable one to be built. I can ask him if he is OK if I distribute this if you wish. Steve snip Please do, I would be willing to do the PC boards if the demand makes if possible. I have asked Bill if he is OK with me sharing his design files further and will get back to you. I'd certainly be interested in some PCBs for this. Steve Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
I really like using small individual cheap coolers; the ones that hold a six-pack. Stick the stuff in. Use wire-wrap wire and small coax to get signals and power in and out... Don Stanley Reynolds One problem is the door opens don't move in the same direction, a rain storm did cool things off outside during the test but it was still warmer outside both times. I will place a box over the Pictic and rerun the test. Stanley - Original Message From: Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 9:38:37 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data No, the board is not in a case. An annotated graph attached. I think the 100 sec oscillations are a vane that moves up and down on the a/c unit as this is washed out on the two door opens. - Original Message From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 9:18:44 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data Hi Is it shielded from drafts? Bob On Aug 14, 2010, at 10:12 PM, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: My guess as to what the data may indicate is performance of the 10 Mhz 20PPM PICTIC internal oscillator, need to repeat test with precision 10Mhz and auto calibrate off. Fatness of the line/width maybe PICTIC error. Note graph seems to show me leaving the room and returning via the outside door. Not sure what the ~100 sec oscillations are, need to check a/c cycle time. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] PicTic Data
Attached is my first pictic ii data. It is the difference between the PPS output of a Trak 8820 and a Odetics Comsync. Turned on the counter display at the end of the run to show that most of the data was the interpolars. Stanley 001073 001075 001072 001072 001066 001068 001066 001068 001063 001068 001065 001066 001067 001067 001071 001075 001074 001072 001075 001079 001078 001081 001080 001084 001087 001089 001090 001092 001090 001094 001096 001098 001099 001102 001106 001105 001112 001112 00 001117 001118 001118 001123 001128 001127 001130 001129 001121 001124 001118 001116 001114 001112 001108 001103 001102 001098 001096 001092 001090 001085 001084 001082 001078 001074 001073 001074 001074 001074 001071 001069 001066 001068 001068 001069 001062 001066 001065 001065 001065 001065 001061 001062 001065 001064 001062 001062 001063 001060 001059 001061 001062 001061 001058 001058 001059 001059 001059 001059 001057 001056 001056 001058 001057 001056 001056 001057 001055 001058 001058 001058 001059 001057 001057 001055 001058 001057 001057 001060 001064 001064 001067 001070 001067 001072 001073 001077 001079 001079 001081 001084 001089 001091 001092 001092 001093 001096 001098 001099 001100 001103 001099 001097 001094 001092 001091 001090 001087 001088 001089 001088 001089 001087 001086 001086 001082 001080 001082 001080 001081 001082 001084 001084 001089 001092 001091 001095 001096 001097 001102 001103 001103 001107 001106 001113 001112 001116 001119 001121 001124 001122 001125 001128 001130 001132 001135 001138 001139 001141 001145 001147 001148 001143 001137 001137 001134 001131 001131 001127 001124 001120 001118 00 001108 001109 001103 001102 001097 001096 001087 001087 001084 001082 001078 001079 001072 001071 001065 001062 001057 001053 001048 001046 001043 001041 001038 001035 001032 001032 001031 001031 001028 001029 001028 001028 001028 001024 001026 001024 001023 001025 001022 001022 001020 001021 001022 001019 001019 001022 001020 001020 001020 001021 001019 001022 001021 001017 001021 001019 001021 001018 001020 001018 001018 001016 001019 001020 001017 001016 001018 001015 001017 001017 001015 001016 001013 001017 001011 001015 001012 001011 001013 001008 001012 001010 001009 001014 001008 001008 001007 001007 001006 001007 001006 001003 001005 001003 001006 001003 001003 001002 001004 001000 000999 000997 000999 000998 000994 000993 000995 000998 000993 000991 000994 000993 000991 000988 000988 000992 000990 000985 000988 000990 000988 000988 000988 000987 000986 000986 000988 000986 000984 000983 000982 000983 000983 000982 000978 000980 000982 000979 000977 000978 000977 000976 000974 000975 000976 000974 000972 000970 000972 000973 000974 000974 000975 000971 000973 000974 000973 000974 000974 000972 000971 000972 000972 000971 000974 000971 000969 000968 000966 000966 000966 000968 000969 000965 000962 000964 000961 000964 000962 000958 000957 000960 000959 000957 000958 000957 000957 000957 000953 000950 000949 000950 000949
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
My guess as to what the data may indicate is performance of the 10 Mhz 20PPM PICTIC internal oscillator, need to repeat test with precision 10Mhz and auto calibrate off. Fatness of the line/width maybe PICTIC error. Note graph seems to show me leaving the room and returning via the outside door. Not sure what the ~100 sec oscillations are, need to check a/c cycle time. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
Hi Is it shielded from drafts? Bob On Aug 14, 2010, at 10:12 PM, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: My guess as to what the data may indicate is performance of the 10 Mhz 20PPM PICTIC internal oscillator, need to repeat test with precision 10Mhz and auto calibrate off. Fatness of the line/width maybe PICTIC error. Note graph seems to show me leaving the room and returning via the outside door. Not sure what the ~100 sec oscillations are, need to check a/c cycle time. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
One problem is the door opens don't move in the same direction, a rain storm did cool things off outside during the test but it was still warmer outside both times. I will place a box over the Pictic and rerun the test. Stanley - Original Message From: Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 9:38:37 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data No, the board is not in a case. An annotated graph attached. I think the 100 sec oscillations are a vane that moves up and down on the a/c unit as this is washed out on the two door opens. - Original Message From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 9:18:44 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data Hi Is it shielded from drafts? Bob On Aug 14, 2010, at 10:12 PM, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: My guess as to what the data may indicate is performance of the 10 Mhz 20PPM PICTIC internal oscillator, need to repeat test with precision 10Mhz and auto calibrate off. Fatness of the line/width maybe PICTIC error. Note graph seems to show me leaving the room and returning via the outside door. Not sure what the ~100 sec oscillations are, need to check a/c cycle time. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
A few preliminary measurements here (I'm working on getting some software support together): http://www.ke5fx.com/pictic.htm -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Stanley Reynolds Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 7:12 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data My guess as to what the data may indicate is performance of the 10 Mhz 20PPM PICTIC internal oscillator, need to repeat test with precision 10Mhz and auto calibrate off. Fatness of the line/width maybe PICTIC error. Note graph seems to show me leaving the room and returning via the outside door. Not sure what the ~100 sec oscillations are, need to check a/c cycle time. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
John glad you are getting good results and have something to compare to. Back to me who doesn't have any knowns but lots of guessing. Attached is a run with a box cover over the pictic, run is shorter ~ 800 seconds but the box does look like it helps. I need to do a lot more testing but sometimes I just get excited :-) I imported your .txt file alongside the traces I captured. Assuming it was taken with 1 Hz on both START and STOP, it looks like the attached. You're getting the exact sort of results that I see if I feed both the START and STOP inputs at 1 Hz. My guess is that the onboard oscillator limits the performance in that case, since it has a lot of time to drift during the measurement if the two pulses occur close to 1 second apart. Even the 5370B looks much worse if driven with 1 Hz on both inputs than it does with 1 Hz at START and 10 MHz at STOP. So I think you're basically up and running OK. When I get around to trying a better clock, I'll also go back and see if the 1-pps x2 performance improves. It would be great if the next spin of the board could include sine-to-CMOS shapers for the input channels as well as an external clock input, for people who are working directly with RF signals as opposed to 1-pps. -- john, KE5FX - Original Message From: John Miles jmi...@pop.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 10:19:46 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data A few preliminary measurements here (I'm working on getting some software support together): http://www.ke5fx.com/pictic.htm -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Stanley Reynolds Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 7:12 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data My guess as to what the data may indicate is performance of the 10 Mhz 20PPM PICTIC internal oscillator, need to repeat test with precision 10Mhz and auto calibrate off. Fatness of the line/width maybe PICTIC error. Note graph seems to show me leaving the room and returning via the outside door. Not sure what the ~100 sec oscillations are, need to check a/c cycle time. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. attachment: capture2_freq.gifattachment: capture2_adev.gif___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
Here's your first run in red, compared to your second one in green... -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Stanley Reynolds Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 3:28 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] PicTic Data Attached is my first pictic ii data. It is the difference between the PPS output of a Trak 8820 and a Odetics Comsync. Turned on the counter display at the end of the run to show that most of the data was the interpolars. Stanley attachment: compare.gif___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
Thanks for looking at my data that was what I was fishing for all along :-) I was looking at the article: A Small Dual Mixer Time Difference (DMTD) Clock Measuring System W.J. Riley Richard posted And thinking it would be nice to do the DSS and Mixer boards to go with the pictic II. Or changing the Pictic II to use the Acam TDC GP2 Time to Digital Converter; 2 channel w/65 ps resolution now under $30. as Bruce suggested a while back. My wants sure exceed my cans ;-) Stanley - Original Message From: John Miles jmi...@pop.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 11:25:44 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data John glad you are getting good results and have something to compare to. Back to me who doesn't have any knowns but lots of guessing. Attached is a run with a box cover over the pictic, run is shorter ~ 800 seconds but the box does look like it helps. I need to do a lot more testing but sometimes I just get excited :-) I imported your .txt file alongside the traces I captured. Assuming it was taken with 1 Hz on both START and STOP, it looks like the attached. You're getting the exact sort of results that I see if I feed both the START and STOP inputs at 1 Hz. My guess is that the onboard oscillator limits the performance in that case, since it has a lot of time to drift during the measurement if the two pulses occur close to 1 second apart. Even the 5370B looks much worse if driven with 1 Hz on both inputs than it does with 1 Hz at START and 10 MHz at STOP. So I think you're basically up and running OK. When I get around to trying a better clock, I'll also go back and see if the 1-pps x2 performance improves. It would be great if the next spin of the board could include sine-to-CMOS shapers for the input channels as well as an external clock input, for people who are working directly with RF signals as opposed to 1-pps. -- john, KE5FX - Original Message From: John Miles jmi...@pop.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 10:19:46 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data A few preliminary measurements here (I'm working on getting some software support together): http://www.ke5fx.com/pictic.htm -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Stanley Reynolds Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 7:12 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data My guess as to what the data may indicate is performance of the 10 Mhz 20PPM PICTIC internal oscillator, need to repeat test with precision 10Mhz and auto calibrate off. Fatness of the line/width maybe PICTIC error. Note graph seems to show me leaving the room and returning via the outside door. Not sure what the ~100 sec oscillations are, need to check a/c cycle time. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
Yes don't think the box did do much. I do have two different dividers here I just need too finish the projects I have. Thanks again, Stanley - Original Message From: John Miles jmi...@pop.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 11:46:49 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data Here's your first run in red, compared to your second one in green... -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Stanley Reynolds Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 3:28 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] PicTic Data Attached is my first pictic ii data. It is the difference between the PPS output of a Trak 8820 and a Odetics Comsync. Turned on the counter display at the end of the run to show that most of the data was the interpolars. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
Thanks for looking at my data that was what I was fishing for all along :-) You can import it the same way, actually -- install the TimeLab beta at www.ke5fx.com/timelab/setup.exe and use File-Import ASCII Phase Data to read your file. Set Nominal Frequency to 1, Numeric Field # to whichever field contains your time data (2 for capture.txt), and the 'x' field to 250E-12 to convert to seconds. That should give you the same graph I posted. Ulrich Bangert's Plotter application is also good for this sort of thing, although I don't immediately see how to make it scale the data by 250E-12 to convert it to seconds. I was looking at the article: A Small Dual Mixer Time Difference (DMTD) Clock Measuring System W.J. Riley Richard posted And thinking it would be nice to do the DSS and Mixer boards to go with the pictic II. Or changing the Pictic II to use the Acam TDC GP2 Time to Digital Converter; 2 channel w/65 ps resolution now under $30. as Bruce suggested a while back. My wants sure exceed my cans ;-) Once lower measurement floors are desired and the system grows in complexity and cost, other approaches besides TICs start to look more appealing. For what it does, though, this is a really nice little board. -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
An ACAM GP2 evaluation board is available here: http://shop.omegacs.net/ However an ACAM GP1 would probably be a better fit in a DMTD with a beat frequency of 10Hz or more as the GP1 has a measurement range of 200ms. Bruce Stanley Reynolds wrote: Thanks for looking at my data that was what I was fishing for all along :-) I was looking at the article: A Small Dual Mixer Time Difference (DMTD) Clock Measuring System W.J. Riley Richard posted And thinking it would be nice to do the DSS and Mixer boards to go with the pictic II. Or changing the Pictic II to use the Acam TDC GP2 Time to Digital Converter; 2 channel w/65 ps resolution now under $30. as Bruce suggested a while back. My wants sure exceed my cans ;-) Stanley - Original Message From: John Milesjmi...@pop.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 11:25:44 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data John glad you are getting good results and have something to compare to. Back to me who doesn't have any knowns but lots of guessing. Attached is a run with a box cover over the pictic, run is shorter ~ 800 seconds but the box does look like it helps. I need to do a lot more testing but sometimes I just get excited :-) I imported your .txt file alongside the traces I captured. Assuming it was taken with 1 Hz on both START and STOP, it looks like the attached. You're getting the exact sort of results that I see if I feed both the START and STOP inputs at 1 Hz. My guess is that the onboard oscillator limits the performance in that case, since it has a lot of time to drift during the measurement if the two pulses occur close to 1 second apart. Even the 5370B looks much worse if driven with 1 Hz on both inputs than it does with 1 Hz at START and 10 MHz at STOP. So I think you're basically up and running OK. When I get around to trying a better clock, I'll also go back and see if the 1-pps x2 performance improves. It would be great if the next spin of the board could include sine-to-CMOS shapers for the input channels as well as an external clock input, for people who are working directly with RF signals as opposed to 1-pps. -- john, KE5FX - Original Message From: John Milesjmi...@pop.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 10:19:46 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data A few preliminary measurements here (I'm working on getting some software support together): http://www.ke5fx.com/pictic.htm -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Stanley Reynolds Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 7:12 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data My guess as to what the data may indicate is performance of the 10 Mhz 20PPM PICTIC internal oscillator, need to repeat test with precision 10Mhz and auto calibrate off. Fatness of the line/width maybe PICTIC error. Note graph seems to show me leaving the room and returning via the outside door. Not sure what the ~100 sec oscillations are, need to check a/c cycle time. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data
Bruce Griffiths wrote: An ACAM GP2 evaluation board is available here: http://shop.omegacs.net/ Ignore this link as I omitted to read the fine print However an ACAM GP1 would probably be a better fit in a DMTD with a beat frequency of 10Hz or more as the GP1 has a measurement range of 200ms. Bruce Stanley Reynolds wrote: Thanks for looking at my data that was what I was fishing for all along :-) I was looking at the article: A Small Dual Mixer Time Difference (DMTD) Clock Measuring System W.J. Riley Richard posted And thinking it would be nice to do the DSS and Mixer boards to go with the pictic II. Or changing the Pictic II to use the Acam TDC GP2 Time to Digital Converter; 2 channel w/65 ps resolution now under $30. as Bruce suggested a while back. My wants sure exceed my cans ;-) Stanley - Original Message From: John Milesjmi...@pop.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 11:25:44 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data John glad you are getting good results and have something to compare to. Back to me who doesn't have any knowns but lots of guessing. Attached is a run with a box cover over the pictic, run is shorter ~ 800 seconds but the box does look like it helps. I need to do a lot more testing but sometimes I just get excited :-) I imported your .txt file alongside the traces I captured. Assuming it was taken with 1 Hz on both START and STOP, it looks like the attached. You're getting the exact sort of results that I see if I feed both the START and STOP inputs at 1 Hz. My guess is that the onboard oscillator limits the performance in that case, since it has a lot of time to drift during the measurement if the two pulses occur close to 1 second apart. Even the 5370B looks much worse if driven with 1 Hz on both inputs than it does with 1 Hz at START and 10 MHz at STOP. So I think you're basically up and running OK. When I get around to trying a better clock, I'll also go back and see if the 1-pps x2 performance improves. It would be great if the next spin of the board could include sine-to-CMOS shapers for the input channels as well as an external clock input, for people who are working directly with RF signals as opposed to 1-pps. -- john, KE5FX - Original Message From: John Milesjmi...@pop.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 10:19:46 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data A few preliminary measurements here (I'm working on getting some software support together): http://www.ke5fx.com/pictic.htm -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Stanley Reynolds Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 7:12 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PicTic Data My guess as to what the data may indicate is performance of the 10 Mhz 20PPM PICTIC internal oscillator, need to repeat test with precision 10Mhz and auto calibrate off. Fatness of the line/width maybe PICTIC error. Note graph seems to show me leaving the room and returning via the outside door. Not sure what the ~100 sec oscillations are, need to check a/c cycle time. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
