Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[Tom Holmes]

Didier...

That's a trivial distinction to me; 5 days in either direction is simply a
form of highway robbery legalized by the government.

As for still writing checks, Magnus, there are still cases where that is the
only way I will transfer large amounts of money. I love having a paper trail
I can control and maintain.

Tom Holmes, N8ZM
Tipp City, OH
EM79

> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of shali...@gmail.com
> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 7:33 AM
> To: Time-Nuts
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...
> 
> Actually, if you pay attention, it probably only takes your bank a few uS
to debit
> your account when you write a check. It takes 5 days to credit it when you
receive
> one.
> 
> A perfect example of asymmetric processing :)
> 
> Didier KO4BB
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: "Tom Holmes" 
> Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 21:25:46
> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' n...@febo.com>
> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>   
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...
> 
> All this fuss over microseconds being worth billions and it still takes a
> bank 5 days to find out if the check I wrote is good?
> 
> Where's a good manure scoop when you need one?
> 
> Tom Holmes, N8ZM
> Tipp City, OH
> EM79
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> > Behalf Of Bob Paddock
> > Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 7:50 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Hal Murray 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > x...@darksmile.net said:
> > >> You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.
> > >
> > >> They need sub-microsecond accurate timing as some instruments (Forex)
> > are
> > >> moving to <10 microsecond latency from order entry to order ack.
> > >
> > > 10 microsecond latency doesn't say anything about how accurate the
time
> has
> > > to be.
> > >
> > > Does anybody have a good URL on the accuracy requirements of banks
> and/or
> > > stock markets?  I expect there are both legal and technical issues.
 I'd
> like
> > > to understand them separately
> >
> > There are some big names in Banking and Stocks behind the
> >  Advanced Message Queuing Protocol (AMQP):
> >
> > http://www.amqp.org/confluence/display/AMQP/About+AMQP
> >
> > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=amqp
> >
> > http://amqp.org/resources/financial-services
> >
> > Actually Time Nut Grade measurements are not addressed at this level
> > to my knowledge.
> >
> >   Round Trip: The term round trip refers to the
> >   process of a peer sending a command to its partner and
> >   receiving confirmation that the command is complete. Round
> >   trips are necessary for synchronization of world views,
> >   however, it is not necessary for a client to wait and do
> >   nothing while a round trip occurs or only deal with a single
> >   round trip at a time.
> > 
> >
> > 
> >   Round Trip Time (RTT): The term RTT refers to the
> >   time taken to complete a round trip. This is described with
> >   the following formula:
> >   
> > RTT = 2*latency_network + latency_processing
> > 
> >
> >   Note that RTT at the execution layer differs from RTT at
> >   the network layer. At the network layer the processing
> >   latency is zero resulting in an RTT of twice the network
> >   latency. At the execution layer the processing time becomes
> >   significant if, for example, processing the command requires
> >   sending data to disk. This would be the case with durable
> >   messages and the RTT would then include the Broker's disk
> >   latency.
> > 
> >
> > > but I won't be surprised if they are thoroughly
> > > tangled.
> >
> > http://www.imatix.com/articles:whats-wrong-with-amqp
> >
> > There is also the even more obscure 0MQ:
> >
> > http://www.zeromq.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> &

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[Magnus Danielson]

On 18/09/11 13:32, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

Actually, if you pay attention, it probably only takes your bank a few uS to 
debit your account when you write a check. It takes 5 days to credit it when 
you receive one.

A perfect example of asymmetric processing :)


I am amazed checks is still being in use. They are virtually gone here 
since many, many years. I have never had a check-book and don't see why 
I ever would need one.


I receive checks from the US for smaller sums. Usually not worth the 
effort to get the money.


The one check I will *NEVER* cash in is the one from Don Knuth, for 2.56 
USD. I have the frame, I just forgot to frame it.


Cheers,
Magnus

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[shalimr9]

Actually, if you pay attention, it probably only takes your bank a few uS to 
debit your account when you write a check. It takes 5 days to credit it when 
you receive one.

A perfect example of asymmetric processing :)

Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: "Tom Holmes" 
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 21:25:46 
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
    
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

All this fuss over microseconds being worth billions and it still takes a
bank 5 days to find out if the check I wrote is good?

Where's a good manure scoop when you need one?

Tom Holmes, N8ZM
Tipp City, OH
EM79

> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Bob Paddock
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 7:50 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...
> 
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Hal Murray 
> wrote:
> >
> > x...@darksmile.net said:
> >> You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.
> >
> >> They need sub-microsecond accurate timing as some instruments (Forex)
> are
> >> moving to <10 microsecond latency from order entry to order ack.
> >
> > 10 microsecond latency doesn't say anything about how accurate the time
has
> > to be.
> >
> > Does anybody have a good URL on the accuracy requirements of banks
and/or
> > stock markets?  I expect there are both legal and technical issues.  I'd
like
> > to understand them separately
> 
> There are some big names in Banking and Stocks behind the
>  Advanced Message Queuing Protocol (AMQP):
> 
> http://www.amqp.org/confluence/display/AMQP/About+AMQP
> 
> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=amqp
> 
> http://amqp.org/resources/financial-services
> 
> Actually Time Nut Grade measurements are not addressed at this level
> to my knowledge.
> 
>   Round Trip: The term round trip refers to the
>   process of a peer sending a command to its partner and
>   receiving confirmation that the command is complete. Round
>   trips are necessary for synchronization of world views,
>   however, it is not necessary for a client to wait and do
>   nothing while a round trip occurs or only deal with a single
>   round trip at a time.
> 
> 
> 
>   Round Trip Time (RTT): The term RTT refers to the
>   time taken to complete a round trip. This is described with
>   the following formula:
>   
> RTT = 2*latency_network + latency_processing
> 
> 
>   Note that RTT at the execution layer differs from RTT at
>   the network layer. At the network layer the processing
>   latency is zero resulting in an RTT of twice the network
>   latency. At the execution layer the processing time becomes
>   significant if, for example, processing the command requires
>   sending data to disk. This would be the case with durable
>   messages and the RTT would then include the Broker's disk
>   latency.
> 
> 
> > but I won't be surprised if they are thoroughly
> > tangled.
> 
> http://www.imatix.com/articles:whats-wrong-with-amqp
> 
> There is also the even more obscure 0MQ:
> 
> http://www.zeromq.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> http://blog.softwaresafety.net/
> http://www.designer-iii.com/
> http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/
> 
>___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[shalimr9]

Good point, I did not keep a link to that article, so I can't check now but you 
are most likely correct. The article made reference to an unnamed hedge fund 
manager who made the statement.

The part that is the most upsetting to me is how far we as a society have gone 
astray with speculation and money games, instead of using the stock market for 
what it was originally intended.

If you are going to invest your money in a productive way, you have to keep it 
in a company long enough for that company to design products and put them in 
the market. How could a millisecond have any effect whatsoever?

Didier KO4BB
 
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: Javier Herrero 
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 00:25:20 
To: 
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

Should not be ms instead of us for a transatlantic cable? 60us at light 
speed is only 18km ;)

Regards,

Javier

El 16/09/2011 23:53, shali...@gmail.com escribió:
> I just read they were building a new transatlantic cable that will shave 10uS 
> from the normal 60 or so uS and that for large traders, 1uS represents 100 
> million $ per year saving/increased revenue.
>
> Didier KO4BB
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
>
> -Original Message-
> From: x...@darksmile.net
> Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:05:40
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement; 
> Hal Murray
> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>       
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...
>
> You are right.
>
> To be more precise, I should have said that the time sync should be at
> least 1 order of magnitude less. In the case of<10us turnaround time,
> it is assumed that the timesync is<1us. This is the reason that
> everyone uses multiple stratum 1 NTP servers using GPS in their
> datacenters.
>
> So the Forex transaction goes like this:
>
> 1. (Both parties) Are we in proper sync timewise?
> 2. (Party 1) I need transaction type x. My timestamp is: .. Go.
> 3. (PArty 2) Confirmed. My timestamp is: .. Go.
>
> These timestamps are legal entities and bind both parties to the transaction.
> That's why transactions have a data transfer entity in the middle
> (Reuters, Bloomberg) which guarantees proper timesync for all involved.
>
> With Reuters in the middle, only the Reuters timestamp (arrival time
> and send time) can be trusted.
>
> However, Many times you will see a Reuters machine lose sync and the
> UNIX SA's will restart NTP on it. Reuters puts more than one machine
> per site for redundancy.
>
> Quoting Hal Murray:
>
>>
>> x...@darksmile.net said:
>>> You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.
>>
>>> They need sub-microsecond accurate timing as some instruments (Forex)   are
>>> moving to<10 microsecond latency from order entry to order ack.
>>
>> 10 microsecond latency doesn't say anything about how accurate the time has
>> to be.
>>
>> Does anybody have a good URL on the accuracy requirements of banks and/or
>> stock markets?  I expect there are both legal and technical issues.  I'd like
>> to understand them separately but I won't be surprised if they are thoroughly
>> tangled.
>>
>> --
>> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
>
>
>___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[Robert Darlington]

Careful, my particle physicists run RedHat.  To be honest, I never heard of
Scientific Linux.  Looking into it, I see it's a custom distro put together
by CERN.

-Bob D (Los Alamos National Lab)



On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 2:41 AM, gary  wrote:

> Interesting story, though I never heard of Oracle and fast used in the same
> news article.
>
> As an aside to what I guess is already an aside, the particle physics guys
> use Linux too, but a special distribution.
>
>> http://www.scientificlinux.**org/ 
>>
>
> Basically, they want to insure everyone is, shall we say, on the same page,
> so they all use the same linux. Not once but twice I ran into particle
> physics guys using Scientific Linux at a local coffee shop. Like what are
> the odds. One guy was from SLAC, the other from CERN as a contractor.
>
>
>
>
> __**_
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[gary]

Interesting story, though I never heard of Oracle and fast used in the 
same news article.


As an aside to what I guess is already an aside, the particle physics 
guys use Linux too, but a special distribution.

http://www.scientificlinux.org/


Basically, they want to insure everyone is, shall we say, on the same 
page, so they all use the same linux. Not once but twice I ran into 
particle physics guys using Scientific Linux at a local coffee shop. 
Like what are the odds. One guy was from SLAC, the other from CERN as a 
contractor.




___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[xaos]

Love it!

You just brought to mind one of the least known (but best) true  
stories about Linux, Windows big money and even bigger BS.


This is an absolutely 100% true story:

September 8, 2008 was the busiest Forex trading day in the history of  
stock markets.


On that day, the London stock exchange failed. It was down for the entire day.
Fortunes were lost.

Why? Well, it is a well known fact that the Exchange (LSE) was run by  
a notorious Windows advocate by the name of "Clara Furse". It was her  
push to an "All Windows Shop" that brought to light some serious  
architectural problems with Windows. Especially when exposed to a  
super high volume trading environment.


Even as the exchange was shut down by Windows issues she continued to  
praise MS and Windows for the great job they did in solving the  
problems.


She lost her job soon after this incident. Good riddance. I had  
dealing with her office (and some of her staff) and they were a bunch  
of idiots.


Linux is now the standard among any Wall St. and Banking firms.  
Nothing compares.


Read this article for more info:  
http://blogs.computerworld.com/14876/london_stock_exchange_dumps_windows_for_linux


Google has a ton of more info on it.

-George

Quoting li...@lazygranch.com:

Bring back the transaction tax and I suspect these timing issues  
will go away.


I recall reading the London exchange was experimenting with linux  
and mysql, supposedly faster than what they were using.


-Original Message-
From: x...@darksmile.net
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:59:01
To: 
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
    
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

With the recent wild fluctuations in the Commodities markets it is
incredibly important that time delay between any 2 parties (in a
financial transaction) be reduced to a minimum.

Only a few years ago, gold, silver and oil would vary by a few dollars
(at most), intraday and even intraweek.

Lately, we had jumps of a few hundred dollars in a few minutes/seconds.

If a bank makes a few 100+ Mil transactions a day (trust me this is
not even a blip on the radar in some places) those extra microsecs add
up.

Now, one would think mathematically about this and say "it should
average out". Well, no! The market (for some weird reason) has a mind
of it's own and when you start to lose money, it just gets worse and
worse.

Even the best mathematical predictors (computer models and humans)
break down when the market volatility (randomness) goes up.

What does "up" or "down" volatility mean? Depends on the day.

The point is, when the proverbial shit hits the fan, you want to bail
out of your position ASAP. However, the time delay between you and
your overseas party added another 50-1000 microseconds to the closing
time, you just lost another  dollars and in a losing day that adds
up!

I've worked on trading floors for many years and seen people drop dead
after they got closing confirmation!

No wonder most traders are so young.

Have a nice weekend everyone!

Quoting shali...@gmail.com:


I just read they were building a new transatlantic cable that will
shave 10uS from the normal 60 or so uS and that for large traders,
1uS represents 100 million $ per year saving/increased revenue.

Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: x...@darksmile.net
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:05:40
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement; Hal Murray
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
    
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

You are right.

To be more precise, I should have said that the time sync should be at
least 1 order of magnitude less. In the case of <10us turnaround time,
it is assumed that the timesync is <1us. This is the reason that
everyone uses multiple stratum 1 NTP servers using GPS in their
datacenters.

So the Forex transaction goes like this:

1. (Both parties) Are we in proper sync timewise?
2. (Party 1) I need transaction type x. My timestamp is: .. Go.
3. (PArty 2) Confirmed. My timestamp is: .. Go.

These timestamps are legal entities and bind both parties to the  
transaction.

That's why transactions have a data transfer entity in the middle
(Reuters, Bloomberg) which guarantees proper timesync for all involved.

With Reuters in the middle, only the Reuters timestamp (arrival time
and send time) can be trusted.

However, Many times you will see a Reuters machine lose sync and the
UNIX SA's will restart NTP on it. Reuters puts more than one machine
per site for redundancy.

Quoting Hal Murray :



x...@darksmile.net said:

You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.


They need sub-microsecond accurate t

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[Tom Holmes]

All this fuss over microseconds being worth billions and it still takes a
bank 5 days to find out if the check I wrote is good?

Where's a good manure scoop when you need one?

Tom Holmes, N8ZM
Tipp City, OH
EM79

> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Bob Paddock
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 7:50 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...
> 
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Hal Murray 
> wrote:
> >
> > x...@darksmile.net said:
> >> You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.
> >
> >> They need sub-microsecond accurate timing as some instruments (Forex)
> are
> >> moving to <10 microsecond latency from order entry to order ack.
> >
> > 10 microsecond latency doesn't say anything about how accurate the time
has
> > to be.
> >
> > Does anybody have a good URL on the accuracy requirements of banks
and/or
> > stock markets?  I expect there are both legal and technical issues.  I'd
like
> > to understand them separately
> 
> There are some big names in Banking and Stocks behind the
>  Advanced Message Queuing Protocol (AMQP):
> 
> http://www.amqp.org/confluence/display/AMQP/About+AMQP
> 
> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=amqp
> 
> http://amqp.org/resources/financial-services
> 
> Actually Time Nut Grade measurements are not addressed at this level
> to my knowledge.
> 
>   Round Trip: The term round trip refers to the
>   process of a peer sending a command to its partner and
>   receiving confirmation that the command is complete. Round
>   trips are necessary for synchronization of world views,
>   however, it is not necessary for a client to wait and do
>   nothing while a round trip occurs or only deal with a single
>   round trip at a time.
> 
> 
> 
>   Round Trip Time (RTT): The term RTT refers to the
>   time taken to complete a round trip. This is described with
>   the following formula:
>   
> RTT = 2*latency_network + latency_processing
> 
> 
>   Note that RTT at the execution layer differs from RTT at
>   the network layer. At the network layer the processing
>   latency is zero resulting in an RTT of twice the network
>   latency. At the execution layer the processing time becomes
>   significant if, for example, processing the command requires
>   sending data to disk. This would be the case with durable
>   messages and the RTT would then include the Broker's disk
>   latency.
> 
> 
> > but I won't be surprised if they are thoroughly
> > tangled.
> 
> http://www.imatix.com/articles:whats-wrong-with-amqp
> 
> There is also the even more obscure 0MQ:
> 
> http://www.zeromq.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> http://blog.softwaresafety.net/
> http://www.designer-iii.com/
> http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[Bob Paddock]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Hal Murray  wrote:
>
> x...@darksmile.net said:
>> You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.
>
>> They need sub-microsecond accurate timing as some instruments (Forex)   are
>> moving to <10 microsecond latency from order entry to order ack.
>
> 10 microsecond latency doesn't say anything about how accurate the time has
> to be.
>
> Does anybody have a good URL on the accuracy requirements of banks and/or
> stock markets?  I expect there are both legal and technical issues.  I'd like
> to understand them separately

There are some big names in Banking and Stocks behind the
 Advanced Message Queuing Protocol (AMQP):

http://www.amqp.org/confluence/display/AMQP/About+AMQP

http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=amqp

http://amqp.org/resources/financial-services

Actually Time Nut Grade measurements are not addressed at this level
to my knowledge.

  Round Trip: The term round trip refers to the
  process of a peer sending a command to its partner and
  receiving confirmation that the command is complete. Round
  trips are necessary for synchronization of world views,
  however, it is not necessary for a client to wait and do
  nothing while a round trip occurs or only deal with a single
  round trip at a time.



  Round Trip Time (RTT): The term RTT refers to the
  time taken to complete a round trip. This is described with
  the following formula:
  
RTT = 2*latency_network + latency_processing


  Note that RTT at the execution layer differs from RTT at
  the network layer. At the network layer the processing
  latency is zero resulting in an RTT of twice the network
  latency. At the execution layer the processing time becomes
  significant if, for example, processing the command requires
  sending data to disk. This would be the case with durable
  messages and the RTT would then include the Broker's disk
  latency.


> but I won't be surprised if they are thoroughly
> tangled.

http://www.imatix.com/articles:whats-wrong-with-amqp

There is also the even more obscure 0MQ:

http://www.zeromq.org/




-- 
http://blog.softwaresafety.net/
http://www.designer-iii.com/
http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[lists]

Bring back the transaction tax and I suspect these timing issues will go away. 

I recall reading the London exchange was experimenting with linux and mysql, 
supposedly faster than what they were using. 

-Original Message-
From: x...@darksmile.net
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:59:01 
To: 
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

With the recent wild fluctuations in the Commodities markets it is  
incredibly important that time delay between any 2 parties (in a  
financial transaction) be reduced to a minimum.

Only a few years ago, gold, silver and oil would vary by a few dollars  
(at most), intraday and even intraweek.

Lately, we had jumps of a few hundred dollars in a few minutes/seconds.

If a bank makes a few 100+ Mil transactions a day (trust me this is  
not even a blip on the radar in some places) those extra microsecs add  
up.

Now, one would think mathematically about this and say "it should  
average out". Well, no! The market (for some weird reason) has a mind  
of it's own and when you start to lose money, it just gets worse and  
worse.

Even the best mathematical predictors (computer models and humans)  
break down when the market volatility (randomness) goes up.

What does "up" or "down" volatility mean? Depends on the day.

The point is, when the proverbial shit hits the fan, you want to bail  
out of your position ASAP. However, the time delay between you and  
your overseas party added another 50-1000 microseconds to the closing  
time, you just lost another  dollars and in a losing day that adds  
up!

I've worked on trading floors for many years and seen people drop dead  
after they got closing confirmation!

No wonder most traders are so young.

Have a nice weekend everyone!

Quoting shali...@gmail.com:

> I just read they were building a new transatlantic cable that will  
> shave 10uS from the normal 60 or so uS and that for large traders,  
> 1uS represents 100 million $ per year saving/increased revenue.
>
> Didier KO4BB
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
>
> -Original Message-
> From: x...@darksmile.net
> Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:05:40
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency  
> measurement; Hal Murray
> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>   
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...
>
> You are right.
>
> To be more precise, I should have said that the time sync should be at
> least 1 order of magnitude less. In the case of <10us turnaround time,
> it is assumed that the timesync is <1us. This is the reason that
> everyone uses multiple stratum 1 NTP servers using GPS in their
> datacenters.
>
> So the Forex transaction goes like this:
>
> 1. (Both parties) Are we in proper sync timewise?
> 2. (Party 1) I need transaction type x. My timestamp is: .. Go.
> 3. (PArty 2) Confirmed. My timestamp is: .. Go.
>
> These timestamps are legal entities and bind both parties to the transaction.
> That's why transactions have a data transfer entity in the middle
> (Reuters, Bloomberg) which guarantees proper timesync for all involved.
>
> With Reuters in the middle, only the Reuters timestamp (arrival time
> and send time) can be trusted.
>
> However, Many times you will see a Reuters machine lose sync and the
> UNIX SA's will restart NTP on it. Reuters puts more than one machine
> per site for redundancy.
>
> Quoting Hal Murray :
>
>>
>> x...@darksmile.net said:
>>> You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.
>>
>>> They need sub-microsecond accurate timing as some instruments (Forex)   are
>>> moving to <10 microsecond latency from order entry to order ack.
>>
>> 10 microsecond latency doesn't say anything about how accurate the time has
>> to be.
>>
>> Does anybody have a good URL on the accuracy requirements of banks and/or
>> stock markets?  I expect there are both legal and technical issues.  
>>  I'd like
>> to understand them separately but I won't be surprised if they are  
>> thoroughly
>> tangled.
>>
>> --
>> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to  
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
>
>
> 

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[xaos]

With the recent wild fluctuations in the Commodities markets it is  
incredibly important that time delay between any 2 parties (in a  
financial transaction) be reduced to a minimum.


Only a few years ago, gold, silver and oil would vary by a few dollars  
(at most), intraday and even intraweek.


Lately, we had jumps of a few hundred dollars in a few minutes/seconds.

If a bank makes a few 100+ Mil transactions a day (trust me this is  
not even a blip on the radar in some places) those extra microsecs add  
up.


Now, one would think mathematically about this and say "it should  
average out". Well, no! The market (for some weird reason) has a mind  
of it's own and when you start to lose money, it just gets worse and  
worse.


Even the best mathematical predictors (computer models and humans)  
break down when the market volatility (randomness) goes up.


What does "up" or "down" volatility mean? Depends on the day.

The point is, when the proverbial shit hits the fan, you want to bail  
out of your position ASAP. However, the time delay between you and  
your overseas party added another 50-1000 microseconds to the closing  
time, you just lost another  dollars and in a losing day that adds  
up!


I've worked on trading floors for many years and seen people drop dead  
after they got closing confirmation!


No wonder most traders are so young.

Have a nice weekend everyone!

Quoting shali...@gmail.com:

I just read they were building a new transatlantic cable that will  
shave 10uS from the normal 60 or so uS and that for large traders,  
1uS represents 100 million $ per year saving/increased revenue.


Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: x...@darksmile.net
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:05:40
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency  
measurement; Hal Murray

Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
        
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

You are right.

To be more precise, I should have said that the time sync should be at
least 1 order of magnitude less. In the case of <10us turnaround time,
it is assumed that the timesync is <1us. This is the reason that
everyone uses multiple stratum 1 NTP servers using GPS in their
datacenters.

So the Forex transaction goes like this:

1. (Both parties) Are we in proper sync timewise?
2. (Party 1) I need transaction type x. My timestamp is: .. Go.
3. (PArty 2) Confirmed. My timestamp is: .. Go.

These timestamps are legal entities and bind both parties to the transaction.
That's why transactions have a data transfer entity in the middle
(Reuters, Bloomberg) which guarantees proper timesync for all involved.

With Reuters in the middle, only the Reuters timestamp (arrival time
and send time) can be trusted.

However, Many times you will see a Reuters machine lose sync and the
UNIX SA's will restart NTP on it. Reuters puts more than one machine
per site for redundancy.

Quoting Hal Murray :



x...@darksmile.net said:

You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.



They need sub-microsecond accurate timing as some instruments (Forex)   are
moving to <10 microsecond latency from order entry to order ack.


10 microsecond latency doesn't say anything about how accurate the time has
to be.

Does anybody have a good URL on the accuracy requirements of banks and/or
stock markets?  I expect there are both legal and technical issues.  
 I'd like
to understand them separately but I won't be surprised if they are  
thoroughly

tangled.

--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

and follow the instructions there.






___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.






___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[Javier Herrero]

Should not be ms instead of us for a transatlantic cable? 60us at light 
speed is only 18km ;)


Regards,

Javier

El 16/09/2011 23:53, shali...@gmail.com escribió:

I just read they were building a new transatlantic cable that will shave 10uS 
from the normal 60 or so uS and that for large traders, 1uS represents 100 
million $ per year saving/increased revenue.

Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: x...@darksmile.net
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:05:40
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement; Hal 
Murray
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

You are right.

To be more precise, I should have said that the time sync should be at
least 1 order of magnitude less. In the case of<10us turnaround time,
it is assumed that the timesync is<1us. This is the reason that
everyone uses multiple stratum 1 NTP servers using GPS in their
datacenters.

So the Forex transaction goes like this:

1. (Both parties) Are we in proper sync timewise?
2. (Party 1) I need transaction type x. My timestamp is: .. Go.
3. (PArty 2) Confirmed. My timestamp is: .. Go.

These timestamps are legal entities and bind both parties to the transaction.
That's why transactions have a data transfer entity in the middle
(Reuters, Bloomberg) which guarantees proper timesync for all involved.

With Reuters in the middle, only the Reuters timestamp (arrival time
and send time) can be trusted.

However, Many times you will see a Reuters machine lose sync and the
UNIX SA's will restart NTP on it. Reuters puts more than one machine
per site for redundancy.

Quoting Hal Murray:



x...@darksmile.net said:

You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.



They need sub-microsecond accurate timing as some instruments (Forex)   are
moving to<10 microsecond latency from order entry to order ack.


10 microsecond latency doesn't say anything about how accurate the time has
to be.

Does anybody have a good URL on the accuracy requirements of banks and/or
stock markets?  I expect there are both legal and technical issues.  I'd like
to understand them separately but I won't be surprised if they are thoroughly
tangled.

--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.






___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.





___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[shalimr9]

I just read they were building a new transatlantic cable that will shave 10uS 
from the normal 60 or so uS and that for large traders, 1uS represents 100 
million $ per year saving/increased revenue.

Didier KO4BB
 
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: x...@darksmile.net
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:05:40 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement; 
Hal Murray
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

You are right.

To be more precise, I should have said that the time sync should be at  
least 1 order of magnitude less. In the case of <10us turnaround time,  
it is assumed that the timesync is <1us. This is the reason that  
everyone uses multiple stratum 1 NTP servers using GPS in their  
datacenters.

So the Forex transaction goes like this:

1. (Both parties) Are we in proper sync timewise?
2. (Party 1) I need transaction type x. My timestamp is: .. Go.
3. (PArty 2) Confirmed. My timestamp is: .. Go.

These timestamps are legal entities and bind both parties to the transaction.
That's why transactions have a data transfer entity in the middle  
(Reuters, Bloomberg) which guarantees proper timesync for all involved.

With Reuters in the middle, only the Reuters timestamp (arrival time  
and send time) can be trusted.

However, Many times you will see a Reuters machine lose sync and the  
UNIX SA's will restart NTP on it. Reuters puts more than one machine  
per site for redundancy.

Quoting Hal Murray :

>
> x...@darksmile.net said:
>> You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.
>
>> They need sub-microsecond accurate timing as some instruments (Forex)   are
>> moving to <10 microsecond latency from order entry to order ack.
>
> 10 microsecond latency doesn't say anything about how accurate the time has
> to be.
>
> Does anybody have a good URL on the accuracy requirements of banks and/or
> stock markets?  I expect there are both legal and technical issues.  I'd like
> to understand them separately but I won't be surprised if they are thoroughly
> tangled.
>
> --
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>




___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[xaos]

You are right.

To be more precise, I should have said that the time sync should be at  
least 1 order of magnitude less. In the case of <10us turnaround time,  
it is assumed that the timesync is <1us. This is the reason that  
everyone uses multiple stratum 1 NTP servers using GPS in their  
datacenters.


So the Forex transaction goes like this:

1. (Both parties) Are we in proper sync timewise?
2. (Party 1) I need transaction type x. My timestamp is: .. Go.
3. (PArty 2) Confirmed. My timestamp is: .. Go.

These timestamps are legal entities and bind both parties to the transaction.
That's why transactions have a data transfer entity in the middle  
(Reuters, Bloomberg) which guarantees proper timesync for all involved.


With Reuters in the middle, only the Reuters timestamp (arrival time  
and send time) can be trusted.


However, Many times you will see a Reuters machine lose sync and the  
UNIX SA's will restart NTP on it. Reuters puts more than one machine  
per site for redundancy.


Quoting Hal Murray :



x...@darksmile.net said:

You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.



They need sub-microsecond accurate timing as some instruments (Forex)   are
moving to <10 microsecond latency from order entry to order ack.


10 microsecond latency doesn't say anything about how accurate the time has
to be.

Does anybody have a good URL on the accuracy requirements of banks and/or
stock markets?  I expect there are both legal and technical issues.  I'd like
to understand them separately but I won't be surprised if they are thoroughly
tangled.

--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.






___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[Hal Murray]

x...@darksmile.net said:
> You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.

> They need sub-microsecond accurate timing as some instruments (Forex)   are
> moving to <10 microsecond latency from order entry to order ack. 

10 microsecond latency doesn't say anything about how accurate the time has 
to be.

Does anybody have a good URL on the accuracy requirements of banks and/or 
stock markets?  I expect there are both legal and technical issues.  I'd like 
to understand them separately but I won't be surprised if they are thoroughly 
tangled.

-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <20110916084529.80082q5qgwy5p...@host111.hostmonster.com>, xaos@dark
smile.net writes:

And you can forget most physicists and metrologists as well, the do not
want wavelengths, half-lifes and energies to depend on the time of day...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[xaos]

You can forget Wall St. firms and Banks for starters.

They need sub-microsecond accurate timing as some instruments (Forex)  
are moving to <10 microsecond latency from order entry to order ack.


Although some software (FIXX) needs a lot of work to get there, they  
are moving in that direction.


-George, N2FGX

Quoting shali...@gmail.com:

That would be nice it is were a standard and everybody was doing it,  
because otherwise, for a day, your own network might be happy, but  
if you have any app that needs to communicate with the outside  
world, you are in a lot of hurt.


Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: Doug Calvert 
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:34:39
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

Time Technology and leaping seconds

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/time-technology-and-leaping-seconds.html

"The solution we came up with came to be known as the “leap smear.” We
modified our internal NTP servers to gradually add a couple of
milliseconds to every update, varying over a time window before the
moment when the leap second actually happens. This meant that when it
became time to add an extra second at midnight, our clocks had already
taken this into account, by skewing the time over the course of the
day. All of our servers were then able to continue as normal with the
new year, blissfully unaware that a leap second had just occurred. We
plan to use this “leap smear” technique again in the future, when new
leap seconds are announced by the IERS."

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.




___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[shalimr9]

That would be nice it is were a standard and everybody was doing it, because 
otherwise, for a day, your own network might be happy, but if you have any app 
that needs to communicate with the outside world, you are in a lot of hurt.

Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: Doug Calvert 
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:34:39 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

Time Technology and leaping seconds

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/time-technology-and-leaping-seconds.html

"The solution we came up with came to be known as the “leap smear.” We
modified our internal NTP servers to gradually add a couple of
milliseconds to every update, varying over a time window before the
moment when the leap second actually happens. This meant that when it
became time to add an extra second at midnight, our clocks had already
taken this into account, by skewing the time over the course of the
day. All of our servers were then able to continue as normal with the
new year, blissfully unaware that a leap second had just occurred. We
plan to use this “leap smear” technique again in the future, when new
leap seconds are announced by the IERS."

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Google NTP Servers and smearing leap seconds...

[Christopher Quarksnow]

It's interesting to see the title "*Why time matters at Google*" in the blog
when Androis bug 5485 has not been fixed in over two years, and most
Android-based phones are 15 seconds fast, as GPS-disciplined rather than
UTC. It appears only Samsung got around
When hearing about this, Daniel Gambis at IERS told me that there was such
as strong momentum to drop leap seconds (ITU, etc...), yet the "damage" is
done !

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 16:34, Doug Calvert wrote:

> Time Technology and leaping seconds
>
>
> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/time-technology-and-leaping-seconds.html
>
> "The solution we came up with came to be known as the “leap smear.” We
> modified our internal NTP servers to gradually add a couple of
> milliseconds to every update, varying over a time window before the
> moment when the leap second actually happens. This meant that when it
> became time to add an extra second at midnight, our clocks had already
> taken this into account, by skewing the time over the course of the
> day. All of our servers were then able to continue as normal with the
> new year, blissfully unaware that a leap second had just occurred. We
> plan to use this “leap smear” technique again in the future, when new
> leap seconds are announced by the IERS."
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.