Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Tony Finch]

Esa Heikkinen  wrote:
>
> Only Google may be stupid enough to grow one second lasting minor timing
> issue to ten hours lasting serious timing issue with even longer effects

Not only Google...

https://pairlist6.pair.net/pipermail/leapsecs/2016-September/006291.html

Tony.
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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Chris Albertson]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Gary E. Miller  wrote:

> Yo Michael!
>
> On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 14:21:39 +
> Michael Rothwell  wrote:
>
> > ... was just announced.
> > https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/11/making-
> every-leap-second-count-with-our-new-public-NTP-servers.html?m=1
>
> I sort of see where they are coming from, but this will cause problems.
>
> The NTP packets google sends out have no way to be marked as 'not UTC'.
> Given how promiscuous people are sharing NTP chimers these 'not UTC'
> chimers will get into the mix.  When they diverge from the real UTC servers
> it will sorely confuse NTP clients.
>

No, not confused at all NTP is designed to detect this problem.   The
Google servers will be detected as "False Tickers" and ignored.   Of course
some clients might be configured to look ONLY at Google servers but those
people like did that on purpose because they wanted to wrong time.   Anyone
with a normal NTP client that uses several different servers will be fine.

The for people who don't know how Ntp works, it is simple:  If you (a
human) ask a bunch of people "what time is it?" you would expect them all
to give you the same answer (within the precision of their wrist watches)
and if one person tells you something that is very different from everyone
else.  You do NOT become confused you just say to yourself "His watch must
be wrong,"  then you ignore his answer."   NTP clients do about this same
thing.   This is why we configure our NTP clients to query a wide and
diverse group of servers, so as to detect problems.   So,.. Google will not
poison the pool e of NTP servers, Google's incorrect time will not
propagate very far.


>
> I would support an RFC to mark the type a time an chimer is servings.
> Not only smeared and UTC, but also TAI, UT, UT0, UT1, UT2, ET, TDT, TDB,
> TT, TCG, TCB, GPS, etc...
>

No,  that is the wrong way to do it.  Then no one flavor of time has enough
servers to make the system work.  A better way is to agree that all NTP
servers use UTC and then distribute the corrections from UTC to the other
flavors and those who need to to the conversions can do so.



> RGDS
> GARY
> 
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
> g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Hal Murray]

tn1...@nic.fi said:
> I wonder what this stupid "leap smear" will do to NTP driftfiles. ...

There was a report on that area mentioned here a while ago.

As long as the smearing is slow enough, the client servers easily track the 
drift.  There is a bump in their drift, but it's not a problem for ntp.  It's 
on the same scale as a big change in temperature.

If you are trying to use your drift as a thermometer, things will get screwed 
up.  If you know the parameters of the smearing server, you could probably 
correct for it.



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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Esa Heikkinen]

Michael Rothwell kirjoitti:


... was just announced.
https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/11/making-every-leap-second-count-with-our-new-public-NTP-servers.html?m=1


I wonder what this stupid "leap smear" will do to NTP driftfiles. Only 
Google may be stupid enough to grow one second lasting minor timing 
issue to ten hours lasting serious timing issue with even longer effects 
if driftfiles will be adjusted to neet their temporary and changing 
non-standard clock rate.


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73s!
Esa
OH4KJU
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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Mike S]

On 11/30/2016 3:35 PM, Gary E. Miller wrote:

> Not true.  NTP has provision for arbitrrary extensions to an ntp packet.
> 
> See RFC 5905. https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5905.txt section 7.3:

HA! ntp (the implementation) doesn't follow the RFC, which says that ntp
(the protocol) is supposed to count seconds in an epoch. It doesn't, it
deliberately miscounts when there's a leap second. Instead of simply
counting seconds like TAI, it's broken just like POSIX.
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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Gary E. Miller]

Yo Tom!

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 13:06:06 -0800
"Tom Van Baak"  wrote:

> From Gary Miller:
> > You gotta start sometime.  Now is a good time.  This is not the
> > first time Google has done this, and certainly will not be the
> > last.  It had bad consequences last time and they did not learn
> > from that.  
> 
> This is not the fault of google. The big players will continue to
> innovate and solve timing problems as long as the official scientific
> and political world do nothing.

This is not innovation, this is anarchy.  We have standards that hard
working people have build over decades.  Ignoring the lessons of the past
is a bad thing.  Arbitrarily changing standards is the path to madness.

> May I request that further discussion of this google / NTP / leap
> second issue take place in ntp forums or the LEAPSECS list, and not
> here on time-nuts.

I'll continue to suggest this move to de...@ntpsec.org.  There are many
people on the NTP IETF committes there.


RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Gary E. Miller]

Yo Poul-Henning!

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 21:01:44 +
"Poul-Henning Kamp"  wrote:

> 
> In message <20161130125857.7229b...@spidey.rellim.com>, "Gary E.
> Miller" writes :
> 
> >Not 'odd'.  Fully specified in the RFC.  Anyone that did not
> >implement the spec gets what they deserve.  
> 
> Actually, anybody who does implement the spec *precisely* gets a lot
> of things nobody should ever be at the receiving end of.

If you know of any such thing I suggest you bring it up on de...@ntpsec.org.
Several of the authors of the upcoming NTS spec hang out there.

If you can document anything specific the NTPsec team would like to get
it handled in their code and documentation.  Currently they are turning
around fixes in days for most issues.

They have already changed a bit of their implementation of the RFC for
security reasons and would do so for any new issues.  Things like
symetric mode are now automagically downgraded to a more secure client
server mode.

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588


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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Tom Van Baak]

>From Gary Miller:
> You gotta start sometime.  Now is a good time.  This is not the first
> time Google has done this, and certainly will not be the last.  It had
> bad consequences last time and they did not learn from that.

This is not the fault of google. The big players will continue to innovate and 
solve timing problems as long as the official scientific and political world do 
nothing.

May I request that further discussion of this google / NTP / leap second issue 
take place in ntp forums or the LEAPSECS list, and not here on time-nuts.

Thanks,
/tvb
Moderator, http://leapsecond.com/time-nuts.htm

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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Gary E. Miller]

Yo Bob!

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:42:58 -0500
Bob Camp  wrote:

> I believe the point was: If you start tossing around packets that are
> odd sized, it is likely to break a lot of existing code.

Not 'odd'.  Fully specified in the RFC.  Anyone that did not implement
the spec gets what they deserve.

IMHO, better for a packet that can be misinterpreted be dropped, Like 
the new non-standard Google NTP.  Unmarked these new packets can cause
havoc.

But, to be fair, some assert the spec is a bit ambiguous. So any
extention should be a new RFC.  Like Autokey.

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588


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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 2:21 PM, Michael Rothwell  wrote:
> ... was just announced.
> https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/11/making-every-leap-second-count-with-our-new-public-NTP-servers.html?m=1

Obvious outcome is obvious. Leap smear prevented faults between google
systems but then created the problem that other things don't agree
with google's timestamps-- and the leapseconds still cause problems
for many other parties.
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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Gary E. Miller]

Yo Poul-Henning!

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 20:42:17 +
"Poul-Henning Kamp"  wrote:

> 
> In message <20161130123506.63853...@spidey.rellim.com>, "Gary E.
> Miller" writes :
> 
> >Not true.  NTP has provision for arbitrrary extensions to an ntp
> >packet.  
> 
> Good luck getting that through firewalls after the lastest rounds
> of NTP amplification attacks...

Good, then we get the firewalls eventually fixed as well.

Seems to me you gotta break things badly on the internet before they get
fixed.

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588


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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I believe the point was: If you start tossing around packets that are odd 
sized, it is 
likely to break a lot of existing code.

Bob

> On Nov 30, 2016, at 3:35 PM, Gary E. Miller  wrote:
> 
> Yo Poul-Henning!
> 
> On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 20:31:09 +
> "Poul-Henning Kamp"  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> In message , Bob Camp
>> writes:
>> 
 I would support an RFC to mark the type a time an chimer is
 servings. Not only smeared and UTC, but also TAI, UT, UT0, UT1,
 UT2, ET, TDT, TDB, TT, TCG, TCB, GPS, etc…  
>>> 
>>> That would probably be a good point to make on the NTP list :)
>>> 
>>> The gotcha is that there is essentially zero time to approve and
>>> implement something like that before the end of next month …  
>> 
>> And no space in the NTP packets for the bits.
> 
> Not true.  NTP has provision for arbitrrary extensions to an ntp packet.
> 
> See RFC 5905. https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5905.txt section 7.3:
> 
>"The packet format consists of three components: the header itself,
>one or more optional extension fields, and an optional message
>authentication code (MAC). "
> 
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>   g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <20161130123506.63853...@spidey.rellim.com>, "Gary E. Miller" writes
:

>Not true.  NTP has provision for arbitrrary extensions to an ntp packet.

Good luck getting that through firewalls after the lastest rounds
of NTP amplification attacks...


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Gary E. Miller]

Yo Poul-Henning!

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 20:31:09 +
"Poul-Henning Kamp"  wrote:

> 
> In message , Bob Camp
> writes:
> 
> >> I would support an RFC to mark the type a time an chimer is
> >> servings. Not only smeared and UTC, but also TAI, UT, UT0, UT1,
> >> UT2, ET, TDT, TDB, TT, TCG, TCB, GPS, etc…  
> >
> >That would probably be a good point to make on the NTP list :)
> >
> >The gotcha is that there is essentially zero time to approve and
> >implement something like that before the end of next month …  
> 
> And no space in the NTP packets for the bits.

Not true.  NTP has provision for arbitrrary extensions to an ntp packet.

See RFC 5905. https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5905.txt section 7.3:

"The packet format consists of three components: the header itself,
one or more optional extension fields, and an optional message
authentication code (MAC). "

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588


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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Gary E. Miller]

Yo Bob!

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:26:34 -0500
Bob Camp  wrote:

> > I would support an RFC to mark the type a time an chimer is
> > servings. Not only smeared and UTC, but also TAI, UT, UT0, UT1,
> > UT2, ET, TDT, TDB, TT, TCG, TCB, GPS, etc…  
> 
> 
> That would probably be a good point to make on the NTP list :)

Already done.  In private and on BTPsec.

> The gotcha is that there is essentially zero time to approve and
> implement something like that before the end of next month …

You gotta start sometime.  Now is a good time.  This is not the first
time Google has done this, and certainly will not be the last.  It had
bad consequences last time and they did not learn from that.

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588


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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message , Bob Camp writes:

>> I would support an RFC to mark the type a time an chimer is servings.
>> Not only smeared and UTC, but also TAI, UT, UT0, UT1, UT2, ET, TDT, TDB, 
>> TT, TCG, TCB, GPS, etc…
>
>That would probably be a good point to make on the NTP list :)
>
>The gotcha is that there is essentially zero time to approve and implement 
>something like that before the end of next month …

And no space in the NTP packets for the bits.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Bob Camp]

Hi

> On Nov 30, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Gary E. Miller  wrote:
> 
> Yo Michael!
> 
> On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 14:21:39 +
> Michael Rothwell  wrote:
> 
>> ... was just announced.
>> https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/11/making-every-leap-second-count-with-our-new-public-NTP-servers.html?m=1
> 
> I sort of see where they are coming from, but this will cause problems.
> 
> The NTP packets google sends out have no way to be marked as 'not UTC'.
> Given how promiscuous people are sharing NTP chimers these 'not UTC' 
> chimers will get into the mix.  When they diverge from the real UTC servers
> it will sorely confuse NTP clients.
> 
> I would support an RFC to mark the type a time an chimer is servings.
> Not only smeared and UTC, but also TAI, UT, UT0, UT1, UT2, ET, TDT, TDB, 
> TT, TCG, TCB, GPS, etc…


That would probably be a good point to make on the NTP list :)

The gotcha is that there is essentially zero time to approve and implement 
something like that before the end of next
month …

Bob

> 
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>   g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Gary E. Miller]

Yo Michael!

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 14:21:39 +
Michael Rothwell  wrote:

> ... was just announced.
> https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/11/making-every-leap-second-count-with-our-new-public-NTP-servers.html?m=1

I sort of see where they are coming from, but this will cause problems.

The NTP packets google sends out have no way to be marked as 'not UTC'.
Given how promiscuous people are sharing NTP chimers these 'not UTC' 
chimers will get into the mix.  When they diverge from the real UTC servers
it will sorely confuse NTP clients.

I would support an RFC to mark the type a time an chimer is servings.
Not only smeared and UTC, but also TAI, UT, UT0, UT1, UT2, ET, TDT, TDB, 
TT, TCG, TCB, GPS, etc...

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588


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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <706C789A8B5440B3911A8A02C93E3E54@Alta>, "David J Taylor" writes:

>Hope it doesn't mess up too many folk.  It's completely against the 
>recommendations, of course.

But in difference from these, it actually works.

Trust me, they'll get thousands of users...

-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

[David J Taylor]

Subject: [time-nuts] Google public NTP service

... was just announced.
https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/11/making-every-leap-second-count-with-our-new-public-NTP-servers.html?m=1
___

One "service" I will /not/ be using.

Hope it doesn't mess up too many folk.  It's completely against the 
recommendations, of course.


David
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