Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
Randall Thank you for your info. - I have now had time to check my manual and there is a section that deals with a customer installed OCXO. I intend doing the simple mod. today. Some months ago I obtained a 5328A for my collection of HP counters, and I was very surprised at its quick and accurate oven (10544) operation. Regards Roy -Original Message- From: Dave M Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 12:01 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO There is a section in the HP5334 Service manual on changes needed. The oscillator uses either the internal crystal (The trimmer is connected to) or the 10811. Basically you change a capacitor feeding from one to the other. I could scan the appropriate pages if you need (Contact me off list). Regards Randall Prentice Stokes Valley Lower Hutt5019 New Zealand ZL2RJP -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Roy Phillips Sent: Tuesday, 31 January 2012 10:40 a.m. To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO Mark By chance I have just today installed a recently acquired 10554 OCXO into my HP 5334B Counter. Its has been running for 5 hours and is yet to stabilize - my Manual suggest that 24 hours is the required time. Despite reading the manual, I cannot see any reference to the change over from the low grade inbuilt oscillator - is this automatic or does it require a jumper alteration. I seem to recall that Rick Karlquist referred to a voltage droop in the PSU occurring, due to the additional load of the oven as a consequence of fitting the OCXO to the 5334B. I assume that this is when the oven is taking maximum current - perhaps he will offer some help (again) as I cannot find his earlier comments ? I note that the rear simple oscillators trimmer is still operative - should this be so ?, or is it indicative to a need to disconnect it ? Again, any comments would be appreciated. Regards Roy Installation of Option 010 is basically removing capacitor C8 and reinstalling it into the holes designated for C100. Install the 10544 oscillator into the receptacle, secure with appropriate screws and you're all set. C8 and C100 are located very close to the standard (low-stability) crystal at the rear of the main board. Dave M A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
Rick Thanks again for your comments on the 10544 OCXO installation in a 5334B counter. My initial result was because of my haste to check the working of the OCXO, and obviously both oscillators were operative. The Service Manual gives clear instructions for a customer retro installation which I hope to carry out over the week-end. I thought that you had also made some comment that the power supply was somewhat stretched by this addition, (voltage droop), but that was sometime ago, and perhaps it did not apply to the 5334B. It would seem to be OK,and the power transformer runs very cool. Regards Roy -Original Message- From: Rick Karlquist Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:43 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO Roy Phillips wrote: Mark By chance I have just today installed a recently acquired 10554 OCXO into my HP 5334B Counter. Its has been running for 5 hours and is yet to stabilize - my Manual suggest that 24 hours is the required time. Despite reading the manual, I cannot see any reference to the change over from the low grade inbuilt oscillator - is this automatic or does it require a jumper alteration. I seem to recall that Rick Karlquist referred to a voltage droop in the PSU occurring, due to the additional load of the oven as a consequence of fitting the OCXO to the 5334B. I assume that this is when the oven is taking maximum current - perhaps he will offer some help (again) as I cannot find his earlier comments ? I note that the rear simple oscillators trimmer is still operative - should this be so ?, or is it indicative to a need to disconnect it ? Again, any comments would be appreciated. Regards Roy I inherited the built in oscillator from the 5334A; it is a poor design based on a 10116 ECL line receiver (HP part no 1820-0810, near the rear panel switch that selects the external reference). I believe that spare gates in the package are used to select the 10811 vs built in vs external ref. I don't remember, but I suspect plugging in the 10811 is detected somehow by the 10116. I wouldn't normally allow a design where it wasn't automatic. When you say the rear panel trimmer is still operative, do you mean it affects the frequency? Is so, you are not running on the 10544. The design should be obvious from the schematic, however I don't have one and can't remember every detail from 25 years ago. Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
Thanks to Dave and Randall - - yes I did discover the change-over instructions, and hope to make the change over the week-end. Roy -Original Message- From: Dave M Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 12:01 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO There is a section in the HP5334 Service manual on changes needed. The oscillator uses either the internal crystal (The trimmer is connected to) or the 10811. Basically you change a capacitor feeding from one to the other. I could scan the appropriate pages if you need (Contact me off list). Regards Randall Prentice Stokes Valley Lower Hutt5019 New Zealand ZL2RJP -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Roy Phillips Sent: Tuesday, 31 January 2012 10:40 a.m. To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO Mark By chance I have just today installed a recently acquired 10554 OCXO into my HP 5334B Counter. Its has been running for 5 hours and is yet to stabilize - my Manual suggest that 24 hours is the required time. Despite reading the manual, I cannot see any reference to the change over from the low grade inbuilt oscillator - is this automatic or does it require a jumper alteration. I seem to recall that Rick Karlquist referred to a voltage droop in the PSU occurring, due to the additional load of the oven as a consequence of fitting the OCXO to the 5334B. I assume that this is when the oven is taking maximum current - perhaps he will offer some help (again) as I cannot find his earlier comments ? I note that the rear simple oscillators trimmer is still operative - should this be so ?, or is it indicative to a need to disconnect it ? Again, any comments would be appreciated. Regards Roy Installation of Option 010 is basically removing capacitor C8 and reinstalling it into the holes designated for C100. Install the 10544 oscillator into the receptacle, secure with appropriate screws and you're all set. C8 and C100 are located very close to the standard (low-stability) crystal at the rear of the main board. Dave M A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
Hi Mark, I was the project manager for the 5334B counter. A rule at HP was that all 10544 sockets are required to work OK with a 10811 plugged in. There is no rule about the other way around, however its likely to be workable. The 10544 was long out of production in 1987 when the 5334B was introduced and I never worried about whether it would work. The 10544 is slower to stabilize from a cold start because the AT cut has thermal transients. If you keep it warmed up all the time, then there isn't such a disadvantage to the 10544. Rick Karlquist N6RK Allwright, Mark wrote: Hello. I recently bough an HP-5334B counter with option 010 from the big E. A Google search seems to indicate the OCXO should be a 10811 type OCXO but mine has a type 10544. Other than taking longer to warm up does anybody see any problems with this? Basic testing shows the unit seems to work OK. It is reading 1.7 Hz low compared to my Thunderbolt at 10 MHz - I have not tried adjusting the trimmer on the 10544 yet. Comments and thoughts appreciated. Regards. Mark. VE6NTP -- Mark Allwright ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
Hello. I recently bough an HP-5334B counter with option 010 from the big E. A Google search seems to indicate the OCXO should be a 10811 type OCXO but mine has a type 10544. Other than taking longer to warm up does anybody see any problems with this? Basic testing shows the unit seems to work OK. It is reading 1.7 Hz low compared to my Thunderbolt at 10 MHz - I have not tried adjusting the trimmer on the 10544 yet. Comments and thoughts appreciated. Regards. Mark. VE6NTP The service manual for the 5334B specifies the option 010 oscillator to be the 10811 variety. I suspect that a previous owner scavenged the original oscillator from your instrument and substituted the lower priced 10544 oscillator. The 10811 units can bring more money on the auction site than the 10544 units. Both will perform well in the counter, with somewhat longer warmup time for the 10544 oscillator. Pretty much the same performance for both units after warmup and stabilization. I recommend that you let your unit run continuously (standby is OK) for 30 days before making final adjustments to the oscillator. This is to allow the crystal and oscillator circuitry to stabilize after being turned off for an unknown period of time. Dave M A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
10544 is cool - earlier version than the 10811. Just make sure that the unit is getting warm - some of them have had oven controller problems - but haven't we all??!! Regards, Bill Riches WA2DVU -. Hello. I recently bough an HP-5334B counter with option 010 from the big E. A Google search seems to indicate the OCXO should be a 10811 type OCXO but mine has a type 10544. Other than taking longer to warm up does anybody see any problems with this? Basic testing shows the unit seems to work OK. It is reading 1.7 Hz low compared to my Thunderbolt at 10 MHz - I have not tried adjusting the trimmer on the 10544 yet. Comments and thoughts appreciated. Regards. Mark. VE6NTP . ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
ed breya wrote: Could it be that since they are much older (on average) than the 10811s, that (if they've been running) they would have much more accumulated time, so in a more stable part of the long term drift curve? Ed This argument is frequently advanced, however there is no guarantee that the aging continues to improve with age. Also some 10811's now go back 30 years, so its not like they are a lot newer than 10544's. It could be just as important what year the oscillator was made, since the quality varied over time. It gradually improved for a while, then went downhill when the experts retired. Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
Mark By chance I have just today installed a recently acquired 10554 OCXO into my HP 5334B Counter. Its has been running for 5 hours and is yet to stabilize - my Manual suggest that 24 hours is the required time. Despite reading the manual, I cannot see any reference to the change over from the low grade inbuilt oscillator - is this automatic or does it require a jumper alteration. I seem to recall that Rick Karlquist referred to a voltage droop in the PSU occurring, due to the additional load of the oven as a consequence of fitting the OCXO to the 5334B. I assume that this is when the oven is taking maximum current - perhaps he will offer some help (again) as I cannot find his earlier comments ? I note that the rear simple oscillators trimmer is still operative - should this be so ?, or is it indicative to a need to disconnect it ? Again, any comments would be appreciated. Regards Roy -- From: Allwright, Mark mark_allwri...@kindermorgan.com Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 4:02 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO Hello. I recently bough an HP-5334B counter with option 010 from the big E. A Google search seems to indicate the OCXO should be a 10811 type OCXO but mine has a type 10544. Other than taking longer to warm up does anybody see any problems with this? Basic testing shows the unit seems to work OK. It is reading 1.7 Hz low compared to my Thunderbolt at 10 MHz - I have not tried adjusting the trimmer on the 10544 yet. Comments and thoughts appreciated. Regards. Mark. VE6NTP -- Mark Allwright ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
There is a section in the HP5334 Service manual on changes needed. The oscillator uses either the internal crystal (The trimmer is connected to) or the 10811. Basically you change a capacitor feeding from one to the other. I could scan the appropriate pages if you need (Contact me off list). Regards Randall Prentice Stokes Valley Lower Hutt5019 New Zealand ZL2RJP -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Roy Phillips Sent: Tuesday, 31 January 2012 10:40 a.m. To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO Mark By chance I have just today installed a recently acquired 10554 OCXO into my HP 5334B Counter. Its has been running for 5 hours and is yet to stabilize - my Manual suggest that 24 hours is the required time. Despite reading the manual, I cannot see any reference to the change over from the low grade inbuilt oscillator - is this automatic or does it require a jumper alteration. I seem to recall that Rick Karlquist referred to a voltage droop in the PSU occurring, due to the additional load of the oven as a consequence of fitting the OCXO to the 5334B. I assume that this is when the oven is taking maximum current - perhaps he will offer some help (again) as I cannot find his earlier comments ? I note that the rear simple oscillators trimmer is still operative - should this be so ?, or is it indicative to a need to disconnect it ? Again, any comments would be appreciated. Regards Roy -- From: Allwright, Mark mark_allwri...@kindermorgan.com Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 4:02 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO Hello. I recently bough an HP-5334B counter with option 010 from the big E. A Google search seems to indicate the OCXO should be a 10811 type OCXO but mine has a type 10544. Other than taking longer to warm up does anybody see any problems with this? Basic testing shows the unit seems to work OK. It is reading 1.7 Hz low compared to my Thunderbolt at 10 MHz - I have not tried adjusting the trimmer on the 10544 yet. Comments and thoughts appreciated. Regards. Mark. VE6NTP -- Mark Allwright ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
Roy Phillips wrote: Mark By chance I have just today installed a recently acquired 10554 OCXO into my HP 5334B Counter. Its has been running for 5 hours and is yet to stabilize - my Manual suggest that 24 hours is the required time. Despite reading the manual, I cannot see any reference to the change over from the low grade inbuilt oscillator - is this automatic or does it require a jumper alteration. I seem to recall that Rick Karlquist referred to a voltage droop in the PSU occurring, due to the additional load of the oven as a consequence of fitting the OCXO to the 5334B. I assume that this is when the oven is taking maximum current - perhaps he will offer some help (again) as I cannot find his earlier comments ? I note that the rear simple oscillators trimmer is still operative - should this be so ?, or is it indicative to a need to disconnect it ? Again, any comments would be appreciated. Regards Roy I inherited the built in oscillator from the 5334A; it is a poor design based on a 10116 ECL line receiver (HP part no 1820-0810, near the rear panel switch that selects the external reference). I believe that spare gates in the package are used to select the 10811 vs built in vs external ref. I don't remember, but I suspect plugging in the 10811 is detected somehow by the 10116. I wouldn't normally allow a design where it wasn't automatic. When you say the rear panel trimmer is still operative, do you mean it affects the frequency? Is so, you are not running on the 10544. The design should be obvious from the schematic, however I don't have one and can't remember every detail from 25 years ago. Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
Arthur Dent wrote: At http://home.teleport.com/~oldaker/10mhz_construction.htm which has TAPR info, I found this description of the differences. If you have a Thunderbolt or rubidium to feed in to replace the internal oscillator, or you're not concerned about leaving the oven energized 24/7, it probably doesn't make much difference as Rick Karlquist said. The HP 10811A/B, using an SC-cut resonator, is very similar physically to the HP 10544 that used a AT-cut resonator. The SC-cut crystal has several advantages compared to the AT cut. It has a much smaller temperature coefficient, the resonator can be operated at a higher drive level, which improves the signal-to-noise ratio and short-term frequency stability without degrading the aging rate; it has faster warm up with less frequency overshoot. The SC cut is a doubly rotated resonator and requires much tighter angular tolerances when the crystal is cut from the quartz bar. The SC-cut resonator came into commercial production around 1980. The use of SC-cut resonators in oscillators immediately improved their performance of the stand alone HP 10811 series OCXO installed in their test equipment. In our use we are able to improve on the HP frequency stability specs by a factor of 100 to 1000 depending on conditions. A mix of facts and folklore. I would especially challenge the last sentence. Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
There is a section in the HP5334 Service manual on changes needed. The oscillator uses either the internal crystal (The trimmer is connected to) or the 10811. Basically you change a capacitor feeding from one to the other. I could scan the appropriate pages if you need (Contact me off list). Regards Randall Prentice Stokes Valley Lower Hutt5019 New Zealand ZL2RJP -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Roy Phillips Sent: Tuesday, 31 January 2012 10:40 a.m. To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO Mark By chance I have just today installed a recently acquired 10554 OCXO into my HP 5334B Counter. Its has been running for 5 hours and is yet to stabilize - my Manual suggest that 24 hours is the required time. Despite reading the manual, I cannot see any reference to the change over from the low grade inbuilt oscillator - is this automatic or does it require a jumper alteration. I seem to recall that Rick Karlquist referred to a voltage droop in the PSU occurring, due to the additional load of the oven as a consequence of fitting the OCXO to the 5334B. I assume that this is when the oven is taking maximum current - perhaps he will offer some help (again) as I cannot find his earlier comments ? I note that the rear simple oscillators trimmer is still operative - should this be so ?, or is it indicative to a need to disconnect it ? Again, any comments would be appreciated. Regards Roy Installation of Option 010 is basically removing capacitor C8 and reinstalling it into the holes designated for C100. Install the 10544 oscillator into the receptacle, secure with appropriate screws and you're all set. C8 and C100 are located very close to the standard (low-stability) crystal at the rear of the main board. Dave M A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334B with 10544 OCXO
I think the 10811 was the newer improved replacement for the 10544, with the same connections and external signals, and a little better performance. In that era of equipment you may see either one. They should be interchangeable, and the manuals and specs for both are readily available. Ed Not quite same connections. Although the 10811 was designed to be a plug-in replacement for the 10544 the converse is not true. The 10544A requires additional connections (pins 8 and 9) for oven controller power and it is not always a valid replacement for a 10811, depending on the instrument in which it is installed. The symptom is the 10544A never warms up. The 10544B does not have this problem. See datasheets at: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/10544/ /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
