Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Orin Eman]

FWIW Re: the relays.  I worked through the Omron discontinuation notices
for the first relay (I figure the original was a G5Y series, not GSY as in
the manual) and it looks like the G6K series, easily available at Mouser
and about $4 each would work, though you'd have to use a DPDT.

The other two relays are cute little TO5 relays from Teledyne - 412 or 712
series, 12V coil.  The 712-12 will cost $35 at Mouser.  Ouch.

>From reading the paper and the Basic program, the _critical_ part of the
circuit is getting the delays with the outputs swapped exactly the same as
the delays with the outputs unswapped.  A non-trivial task since the traces
are all 50 ohm stripline.  (Or so the manual says - a picture of both sides
of the original PCB would help immensely in determining how critical the
layout is.)

(Phase differences due to the splitters are eliminated by taking a reading
with the outputs unswapped, then with the outputs swapped.  Taking half the
sum of these two readings eliminates the phase error due to the splitter.
At least that's what the Basic program does; the description in the paper
is slightly different, but the equation simplifies to the same thing.)
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <8fdafefb-3563-94be-e68d-63fe00164...@earthlink.net>, jimlux writes:
>On 7/9/17 10:27 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> People *have* been known to sort MiniCircuits parts and use the “extras” in
>> something else. A certain major oscillator manufacturer once bought a bunch
>> of RPD-1’s , sorted them for the “one in a hundred” examples, and then 
>> returned
>> the rest for credit…… Somehow I doubt HP didi it quite that way.
>
>Some manufacturers will cherry pick for you.  Maybe the datasheet says 
>gain is 14 to 18 dB, and you order a batch that you want to be 15.5-16.5 
>dB.. They'll pick those out, but of course, now the remainder have a 
>hole in the distribution.  Particularly when you're buying high-rel or 
>space grade, where they have to 100% test anyway.

I've been told by somebody from HPs manufacturing in Europe that
there were one or two "magic" components where the manufacturer
would send their entire production to HP.

HP would test, measure and sort into four bins: "Failed", "Good",
"Really good" and "HP".

The first three bins got shipped back to the manufacturer.

He suspected that back at the manufacturer, the "Really good"
got a "MIL-GRADE" stamp :-)


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 
,
 Mark Sims writes:

>Also coax and RF relays cost a lot.   Pretty soon your BOM cost
>is over what a 59992A will run... assuming you can find one.

The crucial feature of the 59992A was support for DC-bias, and
that seems to have dictated its design.

If you have no need for DC-bias, an 8-pin microcontroller with a
stable crystal and suitable resistor networks on the outputs will
do fine.

TI measurements on top of DC-bias was important in development and
manufacturing of disk drives:  Measurement of jitter of mechanical
origin must happen on the analog side of the differential read
amplifier, which usually balances a couple of volts up for cost
reasons.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Hal Murray]

> I hope the XOR doubler works well.

I think the initial comment about using a XOR mentioned a couple of gates for 
delay.

A trick from the old FPGA days.  You can guarantee that the pulse is wide 
enough to clock a FF if you put a FF in the chain.  That is replace the 
gates-for-delay with a FF.  Use the pulse to clock the FF and feed the output 
of the FF to the other side of the XOR.  (You may need some delay on the 
input to the FF to meet setup time.  You have the XOR delay to start with.)


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Orin Eman]

$38 is for the wideband  100 - 600MHz PSCJ-2-1W - you'd want the PSCJ-2-1+
which is a little less... $29.20 and no price break until you get 10 of
them.

Looking at the PSCJ-2-1+ datasheet, the "phase imbalance" at the output
ports is about 180 degrees.  How they achieve that, they don't say.


On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:

> More like $18 for the simple splitter and $38 for the 180 phase shift
> splitter.
>
> Also, does anybody know if the phase shift splitter shifts the phase on
> both outputs or on only one output.   Different HP docs say different
> things.
>
> 
>
> > The original parts were nothing special!  PSC-2-1 is spec'd at 4 degrees
> max phase unbalance - though typical is a lot less - and seems to be about
> $14
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Orin Eman]

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 10:55 AM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 7/9/17 10:27 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> People *have* been known to sort MiniCircuits parts and use the “extras”
>> in
>> something else. A certain major oscillator manufacturer once bought a
>> bunch
>> of RPD-1’s , sorted them for the “one in a hundred” examples, and then
>> returned
>> the rest for credit…… Somehow I doubt HP didi it quite that way.
>>
>>
> Some manufacturers will cherry pick for you.  Maybe the datasheet says
> gain is 14 to 18 dB, and you order a batch that you want to be 15.5-16.5
> dB.. They'll pick those out, but of course, now the remainder have a hole
> in the distribution.  Particularly when you're buying high-rel or space
> grade, where they have to 100% test anyway.



Right, but there is nothing to indicate there is anything special going on
in this case.  The theory of operation section of the manual states that
the splitters provide "nearly" in-phase and "nearly" out-of-phase signals
without defining "nearly".  It does not sound like it's critical and to me,
it sounds like they are acknowledging that there are phase mismatches
through the splitters.

Then going on to the other link I posted:

http://www.g8wrb.org/data///HP/Better_than_100_ps_Accuracy_in_HP_5370B_Time_Interval_Measurements_Through_Bias_Error_Reduction.pdf

It accounts for the individual delays through the splitters/cables and
shows how they are eliminated by doing multiple measurements and solving
the resulting simultaneous equations.

Indeed, the programs in the J06's manual mention that 'cable' mismatches
(presumable phase mismatches) are included in the calibration constants and
the same cables should be used for doing actual measurements: (the
formatting did not survive and I fixed some obvious OCR errors)

40 ! THIS PROGRAM EXECUTES THE CALIBRATION ALGORITHM DESCRIBED IN D. CHU'S
50 ! PAPER "CALIBRATION OF SYSTEMATIC ERRORS IN PRECISION TIME-INTERVAL
60 ! COUNTERS", INTERNATIONAL TEST CONFERENCE, PHILADELPHIA, 1985;
70 !
80 ! SET-UP PROCEDURE
90 ! 1) CONNECT A PULSE SOURCE TO THE INPUT OF CALIBRATOR, 3 DB LARGER
100 ! THAN THE DESIRED SIGNAL TO BE MEASURED AND APPROXIMATELY THE
110 ! THE SAME RISE/FALL TIMES, -50% DUTY-CYCLE, STABLE 1 TO 100 MHz.
120 ! 2) CONNECT A PAIR OF CABLES FROM CALIBRATOR OUTPUTS A & B
130 !  TO COUNTER START & STOP INPUTS RESPECTIVELY
140 ! (NOTE: CABLE MISMATCHES ARE INCLUDED IN THE CALIBRATION CONSTANTS,
150 ! AND SAME CABLES SHOULD BE USED LATER FOR DOING MEASUREMENTS;
160 ! ALSO "CABLES" INCLUDE LINEAR, PASSIVE OR ACTIVE PROBES)
170 ! 3) SET COUNTER TO SEPERATE: DC/50 ohms/Xl/PRESET to BOTH CHANNELS
180 ! 4) HPIB ADDRESSES: COUNTER-707, CALIBRATOR-705
190 ! 5) CONNECT A PRECISE OFFSET VOLTAGE SOURCE TO THE OFFSET INPUT: ENTER
200 ! THE EXACT SAME VALUE WHEN PROMPTED. DEFAULT IS 0.00 VOLT
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[jimlux]

On 7/9/17 10:27 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

People *have* been known to sort MiniCircuits parts and use the “extras” in
something else. A certain major oscillator manufacturer once bought a bunch
of RPD-1’s , sorted them for the “one in a hundred” examples, and then returned
the rest for credit…… Somehow I doubt HP didi it quite that way.



Some manufacturers will cherry pick for you.  Maybe the datasheet says 
gain is 14 to 18 dB, and you order a batch that you want to be 15.5-16.5 
dB.. They'll pick those out, but of course, now the remainder have a 
hole in the distribution.  Particularly when you're buying high-rel or 
space grade, where they have to 100% test anyway.




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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

People *have* been known to sort MiniCircuits parts and use the “extras” in 
something else. A certain major oscillator manufacturer once bought a bunch
of RPD-1’s , sorted them for the “one in a hundred” examples, and then returned
the rest for credit…… Somehow I doubt HP didi it quite that way.

4 degrees at 10 MHz. A LVCMOS inverter has a delay of about 2.5 ns. Delay time
on cheap flip flops is no longer broken out in enough detail to really see how 
they 
are doing. 

Bob

> On Jul 9, 2017, at 1:14 PM, Orin Eman  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 5:15 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
>> I think the way the fine cal works by checking the the intervals between
>> four different edges that a lot of asymmetries in the signals are nulled
>> out in the software.
>> 
>> How good are 1:2 180 degree phase shifters at exactly shifting by 180
>> degrees?   At what cost?
>> 
> 
> 
> The original parts were nothing special!  PSC-2-1 is spec'd at 4 degrees
> max phase unbalance - though typical is a lot less - and seems to be about
> $14.
> 
> https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/PSC-2-1.pdf
> https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/PSCJ-2-1+.pdf
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Orin Eman]

On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 5:15 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:

> I think the way the fine cal works by checking the the intervals between
> four different edges that a lot of asymmetries in the signals are nulled
> out in the software.
>
> How good are 1:2 180 degree phase shifters at exactly shifting by 180
> degrees?   At what cost?
>


The original parts were nothing special!  PSC-2-1 is spec'd at 4 degrees
max phase unbalance - though typical is a lot less - and seems to be about
$14.

https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/PSC-2-1.pdf
https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/PSCJ-2-1+.pdf
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi


> On Jul 9, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Francesco Messineo  
> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 2:15 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> So far my design is tending towards:  10MHz ref input -> Minicircuits 
>> doubler -> Wenzel squarer -> 74AC74 divider -> 74AC04 buffer -> level 
>> shifter.  The doubler/divider might not be needed,  but I think it will give 
>> a more symmetric output.  I might include a space for a 10 MHz TTL 
>> oscillator for non time-nut users... hopefully it might be stable enough 
>> over the short time interval for a cal measurement cycle.
> 
> 
> once upon a time, I was experimenting with digital signals to derive
> stable RF transverter
> LOs. I've "found" that feeding a XOR gate with a signal and his
> replica delayed by 2 inverters
> did result in a crude frequency doubler (well it's rather an edge
> detector).

You can do the same thing with a filter on one input of the XOR. Tuning the 
filter for best 
symmetry is fairly easy. Watching the result on a spectrum analyzer usually is 
quickest. 

Bob


> Since I was going to use the double frequency just to drive
> a divider by two, the actual duty cycle out of the doubler didn't
> matter.
> 
> HTH
> Frank
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Bruce Griffiths]

With a sinewave input LF feedback from the 74AC04 output to the shaper inputs 
could be used to regulate the output duty cycle by adjusting the switching 
threshold. However ensuring that the input amplitude is sufficiently large to 
override potential LF oscillation. The LF feedback will also compensate for 
delay asymmetry in the 74AC04 as well.

The output transition times of ACMOS is relatively slow compared to modern 
LVCMOS parts.  

Bruce 
> On 09 July 2017 at 12:15 Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> 
> I think the way the fine cal works by checking the the intervals between four 
> different edges that a lot of asymmetries in the signals are nulled out in 
> the software.
> 
> How good are 1:2 180 degree phase shifters at exactly shifting by 180 
> degrees?   At what cost?   
> 
> Also coax and RF relays cost a lot.   Pretty soon your BOM cost is over what 
> a 59992A will run... assuming you can find one.
> 
> So far my design is tending towards:  10MHz ref input -> Minicircuits doubler 
> -> Wenzel squarer -> 74AC74 divider -> 74AC04 buffer -> level shifter.  The 
> doubler/divider might not be needed,  but I think it will give a more 
> symmetric output.  I might include a space for a 10 MHz TTL oscillator for 
> non time-nut users... hopefully it might be stable enough over the short time 
> interval for a cal measurement cycle.
> 
> For the gain cal an 5V LM4040 (or other) reference.   Routing signals to the 
> output BNC's via 2P4T slide switches.  The slide switches might be a weak 
> link... but they are less than 50 cents each.  Whatever, it should beat the 
> pants off doing just the "quick TI cal"
> 
> The reason I started looking into this is that I want to upgrade the old 
> firmware to a much newer version that allows the comma separators in the 
> decimal digits.   Upgrading the firmware requires a new calibration.
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Francesco Messineo]

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 2:15 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:

>
> So far my design is tending towards:  10MHz ref input -> Minicircuits doubler 
> -> Wenzel squarer -> 74AC74 divider -> 74AC04 buffer -> level shifter.  The 
> doubler/divider might not be needed,  but I think it will give a more 
> symmetric output.  I might include a space for a 10 MHz TTL oscillator for 
> non time-nut users... hopefully it might be stable enough over the short time 
> interval for a cal measurement cycle.


once upon a time, I was experimenting with digital signals to derive
stable RF transverter
LOs. I've "found" that feeding a XOR gate with a signal and his
replica delayed by 2 inverters
did result in a crude frequency doubler (well it's rather an edge
detector). Since I was going to use the double frequency just to drive
a divider by two, the actual duty cycle out of the doubler didn't
matter.

HTH
Frank
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

A splitter with a phase error of < 1 degree at exactly 10 MHz is pretty simple 
to build. It’s mostly 
a matter of how much you want to spend on the splitter. Network analyzers can 
be calibrated to 
measure it. You can poke at a part to get it “right”. The same thing is true on 
phase shifters. As
you add up mismatch errors things get a bit weird, but it’s a single frequency 
not broadband. 
This is the old HP buying parts for a calibrator. Who knows what the budget 
was, or how much
thought went into it.

Bob

> On Jul 9, 2017, at 12:41 AM, Orin Eman <orin.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> FWIW, the "Theory" section here may help:
> 
> http://www.g8wrb.org/data///HP/Better_than_100_ps_Accuracy_in_HP_5370B_Time_Interval_Measurements_Through_Bias_Error_Reduction.pdf
> 
> Phase errors through the splitters seem to be taken into account.
> 
> The J06-59992A manual merely claims 100ps absolute accuracy is possible
> with the 5370A/B.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 7:48 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Based on a quick read of the use of the device, they seem to be relying on
>> it to be << 100 ps
>> off from “ideal”.  How much it being non-ideal matters …. not clear. If
>> you are correcting for various errors
>> and eliminating both unknown source errors and destination errors it
>> likely gets messy.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jul 8, 2017, at 9:14 PM, Tom Van Baak <t...@leapsecond.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I knew we had talked about this before:
>>> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2006-August/021649.html
>>> 
>>> The J06-59992A manual, schematic, app note, and patent are here:
>>> http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/instruments/hp/J06-59992A/
>>> 
>>> It was designed for the hp 5370 (20 ps) so perhaps the tolerances are
>> less stringent if only used for hp 53132 (150 ps). Maybe one of you RF guys
>> can tell from the schematic?
>>> 
>>> Mark writes:
>>>> Yes, they do show up...  but usually for big-ish bucks.   I want to
>> build a small affordable replacement that anybody with a 531xx can have.
>>> 
>>> I don't recall them being expensive at all, just unusual. But making a
>> modern one for time nuts is a great idea -- both 5370 and 53131/53132
>> users. Also, when someone gets around to creating a smart analog front-end
>> to John's TAPR TICC board, your 59992A clone will come in handy.
>>> 
>>> Note also this recent document by Bill Riley:
>>> 
>>> http://www.stable32.com/A%20High-Resolution%20Time%
>> 20Interval%20Counter%20Using%20the%20TAPR%20TADD-2%20and%
>> 20TICC%20Modules.pdf
>>> 
>>> Hal writes:
>>>> What does "good" mean?
>>>> I'd expect the variations due to power or temperature would be easy to
>> measure.
>>>> Delay through classic CMOS is linear with absolute temperature and
>> inverse linear with supply voltage.
>>> 
>>> When John created the TAPR TADD-2-mini board I tested the jitter using a
>> TimePod (integrated phase noise mode). I'm looking for the web page or
>> email now, but I recall it was under 2 ps. This is partly due to the fact
>> that the PIC 12F is a fully synchronous MCU; no tricks with double clock
>> edges or PLL's.
>>> 
>>> /tvb
>>> 
>>> 
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" <bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz>
>>> To: "Mark Sims" <hol...@hotmail.com>; "Discussion of precise time and
>> frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2017 4:48 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for
>> HP-531xx counters
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> A run of the mill 2 way power splitter has better than 10ps phase
>> matching at 100MHz there are few digital devices that offer that degree of
>> matching at best they are usually 10x worse.
>>>> 
>>>> Bruce
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>   On 09 July 2017 at 06:58 Mark Sims <hol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>   Yes, they do show up... but usually for big-ish bucks. I want to
>> build a small affordable replacement that anybody with a 531xx can have.
>>>>> 
>>>>>   My design is currently leaning towards a board with the clock
>> generator and a 5V reference for the gain calibration (they spec 5V +/-
>> 1mV). I was going to use a couple of 2P4T s

Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Orin Eman]

FWIW, the "Theory" section here may help:

http://www.g8wrb.org/data///HP/Better_than_100_ps_Accuracy_in_HP_5370B_Time_Interval_Measurements_Through_Bias_Error_Reduction.pdf

Phase errors through the splitters seem to be taken into account.

The J06-59992A manual merely claims 100ps absolute accuracy is possible
with the 5370A/B.



On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 7:48 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Based on a quick read of the use of the device, they seem to be relying on
> it to be << 100 ps
> off from “ideal”.  How much it being non-ideal matters …. not clear. If
> you are correcting for various errors
> and eliminating both unknown source errors and destination errors it
> likely gets messy.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jul 8, 2017, at 9:14 PM, Tom Van Baak <t...@leapsecond.com> wrote:
> >
> > I knew we had talked about this before:
> > https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2006-August/021649.html
> >
> > The J06-59992A manual, schematic, app note, and patent are here:
> > http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/instruments/hp/J06-59992A/
> >
> > It was designed for the hp 5370 (20 ps) so perhaps the tolerances are
> less stringent if only used for hp 53132 (150 ps). Maybe one of you RF guys
> can tell from the schematic?
> >
> > Mark writes:
> >> Yes, they do show up...  but usually for big-ish bucks.   I want to
> build a small affordable replacement that anybody with a 531xx can have.
> >
> > I don't recall them being expensive at all, just unusual. But making a
> modern one for time nuts is a great idea -- both 5370 and 53131/53132
> users. Also, when someone gets around to creating a smart analog front-end
> to John's TAPR TICC board, your 59992A clone will come in handy.
> >
> > Note also this recent document by Bill Riley:
> >
> > http://www.stable32.com/A%20High-Resolution%20Time%
> 20Interval%20Counter%20Using%20the%20TAPR%20TADD-2%20and%
> 20TICC%20Modules.pdf
> >
> > Hal writes:
> >> What does "good" mean?
> >> I'd expect the variations due to power or temperature would be easy to
> measure.
> >> Delay through classic CMOS is linear with absolute temperature and
> inverse linear with supply voltage.
> >
> > When John created the TAPR TADD-2-mini board I tested the jitter using a
> TimePod (integrated phase noise mode). I'm looking for the web page or
> email now, but I recall it was under 2 ps. This is partly due to the fact
> that the PIC 12F is a fully synchronous MCU; no tricks with double clock
> edges or PLL's.
> >
> > /tvb
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -----
> > From: "Bruce Griffiths" <bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz>
> > To: "Mark Sims" <hol...@hotmail.com>; "Discussion of precise time and
> frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2017 4:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for
> HP-531xx counters
> >
> >
> >> A run of the mill 2 way power splitter has better than 10ps phase
> matching at 100MHz there are few digital devices that offer that degree of
> matching at best they are usually 10x worse.
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >>>
> >>>On 09 July 2017 at 06:58 Mark Sims <hol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>Yes, they do show up... but usually for big-ish bucks. I want to
> build a small affordable replacement that anybody with a 531xx can have.
> >>>
> >>>My design is currently leaning towards a board with the clock
> generator and a 5V reference for the gain calibration (they spec 5V +/-
> 1mV). I was going to use a couple of 2P4T slide switches to route open
> circuit, 5V, normal clock, and inverted clock to the two output connectors.
> >>>
> >>>I think the cost to build would be in the $20 range and fit on a
> 2x2" or so circuit board... certainly more attractive than a $500 big
> ancient box with unobtainium parts in it. The board should be able to
> perform all the calibration steps for the counter.
> >>>
> >>>I don't think the signal requirements are super critical. They are
> using 1:2 splitters and splitter/180 degree phase shifters and relays to
> generate the output signals passively from the inputs. I think a digital
> clock generator would be a LOT more accurate than those phase shifters.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>Actually, you can get J06 HP-59992A calibrators on eBay.
> >>>>
> >
> > ___
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Based on a quick read of the use of the device, they seem to be relying on it 
to be << 100 ps
off from “ideal”.  How much it being non-ideal matters …. not clear. If you are 
correcting for various errors
and eliminating both unknown source errors and destination errors it likely 
gets messy. 

Bob

> On Jul 8, 2017, at 9:14 PM, Tom Van Baak <t...@leapsecond.com> wrote:
> 
> I knew we had talked about this before:
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2006-August/021649.html
> 
> The J06-59992A manual, schematic, app note, and patent are here:
> http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/instruments/hp/J06-59992A/
> 
> It was designed for the hp 5370 (20 ps) so perhaps the tolerances are less 
> stringent if only used for hp 53132 (150 ps). Maybe one of you RF guys can 
> tell from the schematic?
> 
> Mark writes:
>> Yes, they do show up...  but usually for big-ish bucks.   I want to build a 
>> small affordable replacement that anybody with a 531xx can have. 
> 
> I don't recall them being expensive at all, just unusual. But making a modern 
> one for time nuts is a great idea -- both 5370 and 53131/53132 users. Also, 
> when someone gets around to creating a smart analog front-end to John's TAPR 
> TICC board, your 59992A clone will come in handy.
> 
> Note also this recent document by Bill Riley:
> 
> http://www.stable32.com/A%20High-Resolution%20Time%20Interval%20Counter%20Using%20the%20TAPR%20TADD-2%20and%20TICC%20Modules.pdf
> 
> Hal writes:
>> What does "good" mean?
>> I'd expect the variations due to power or temperature would be easy to  
>> measure.
>> Delay through classic CMOS is linear with absolute temperature and inverse 
>> linear with supply voltage.
> 
> When John created the TAPR TADD-2-mini board I tested the jitter using a 
> TimePod (integrated phase noise mode). I'm looking for the web page or email 
> now, but I recall it was under 2 ps. This is partly due to the fact that the 
> PIC 12F is a fully synchronous MCU; no tricks with double clock edges or 
> PLL's.
> 
> /tvb
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Bruce Griffiths" <bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz>
> To: "Mark Sims" <hol...@hotmail.com>; "Discussion of precise time and 
> frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2017 4:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx 
> counters
> 
> 
>> A run of the mill 2 way power splitter has better than 10ps phase matching 
>> at 100MHz there are few digital devices that offer that degree of matching 
>> at best they are usually 10x worse.
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>>> 
>>>On 09 July 2017 at 06:58 Mark Sims <hol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>Yes, they do show up... but usually for big-ish bucks. I want to build a 
>>> small affordable replacement that anybody with a 531xx can have.
>>> 
>>>My design is currently leaning towards a board with the clock generator 
>>> and a 5V reference for the gain calibration (they spec 5V +/- 1mV). I was 
>>> going to use a couple of 2P4T slide switches to route open circuit, 5V, 
>>> normal clock, and inverted clock to the two output connectors.
>>> 
>>>I think the cost to build would be in the $20 range and fit on a 2x2" or 
>>> so circuit board... certainly more attractive than a $500 big ancient box 
>>> with unobtainium parts in it. The board should be able to perform all the 
>>> calibration steps for the counter.
>>> 
>>>I don't think the signal requirements are super critical. They are using 
>>> 1:2 splitters and splitter/180 degree phase shifters and relays to generate 
>>> the output signals passively from the inputs. I think a digital clock 
>>> generator would be a LOT more accurate than those phase shifters.
>>> 
>>>
>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>Actually, you can get J06 HP-59992A calibrators on eBay.
>>>> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Tom Van Baak]

I knew we had talked about this before:
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2006-August/021649.html

The J06-59992A manual, schematic, app note, and patent are here:
http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/instruments/hp/J06-59992A/

It was designed for the hp 5370 (20 ps) so perhaps the tolerances are less 
stringent if only used for hp 53132 (150 ps). Maybe one of you RF guys can tell 
from the schematic?

Mark writes:
> Yes, they do show up...  but usually for big-ish bucks.   I want to build a 
> small affordable replacement that anybody with a 531xx can have. 

I don't recall them being expensive at all, just unusual. But making a modern 
one for time nuts is a great idea -- both 5370 and 53131/53132 users. Also, 
when someone gets around to creating a smart analog front-end to John's TAPR 
TICC board, your 59992A clone will come in handy.

Note also this recent document by Bill Riley:

http://www.stable32.com/A%20High-Resolution%20Time%20Interval%20Counter%20Using%20the%20TAPR%20TADD-2%20and%20TICC%20Modules.pdf

Hal writes:
> What does "good" mean?
> I'd expect the variations due to power or temperature would be easy to  
> measure.
> Delay through classic CMOS is linear with absolute temperature and inverse 
> linear with supply voltage.

When John created the TAPR TADD-2-mini board I tested the jitter using a 
TimePod (integrated phase noise mode). I'm looking for the web page or email 
now, but I recall it was under 2 ps. This is partly due to the fact that the 
PIC 12F is a fully synchronous MCU; no tricks with double clock edges or PLL's.

/tvb


- Original Message - 
From: "Bruce Griffiths" <bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz>
To: "Mark Sims" <hol...@hotmail.com>; "Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2017 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx 
counters


>A run of the mill 2 way power splitter has better than 10ps phase matching at 
>100MHz there are few digital devices that offer that degree of matching at 
>best they are usually 10x worse.
> 
> Bruce
> 
>> 
>> On 09 July 2017 at 06:58 Mark Sims <hol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, they do show up... but usually for big-ish bucks. I want to build a 
>> small affordable replacement that anybody with a 531xx can have.
>> 
>> My design is currently leaning towards a board with the clock generator 
>> and a 5V reference for the gain calibration (they spec 5V +/- 1mV). I was 
>> going to use a couple of 2P4T slide switches to route open circuit, 5V, 
>> normal clock, and inverted clock to the two output connectors.
>> 
>> I think the cost to build would be in the $20 range and fit on a 2x2" or 
>> so circuit board... certainly more attractive than a $500 big ancient box 
>> with unobtainium parts in it. The board should be able to perform all the 
>> calibration steps for the counter.
>> 
>> I don't think the signal requirements are super critical. They are using 
>> 1:2 splitters and splitter/180 degree phase shifters and relays to generate 
>> the output signals passively from the inputs. I think a digital clock 
>> generator would be a LOT more accurate than those phase shifters.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > > 
>> > Actually, you can get J06 HP-59992A calibrators on eBay.
>> > 

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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Bruce Griffiths]

A run of the mill 2 way power splitter has better than 10ps phase matching at 
100MHz there are few digital devices that offer that degree of matching at best 
they are usually 10x worse.

Bruce

> 
> On 09 July 2017 at 06:58 Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> Yes, they do show up... but usually for big-ish bucks. I want to build a 
> small affordable replacement that anybody with a 531xx can have.
> 
> My design is currently leaning towards a board with the clock generator 
> and a 5V reference for the gain calibration (they spec 5V +/- 1mV). I was 
> going to use a couple of 2P4T slide switches to route open circuit, 5V, 
> normal clock, and inverted clock to the two output connectors.
> 
> I think the cost to build would be in the $20 range and fit on a 2x2" or 
> so circuit board... certainly more attractive than a $500 big ancient box 
> with unobtainium parts in it. The board should be able to perform all the 
> calibration steps for the counter.
> 
> I don't think the signal requirements are super critical. They are using 
> 1:2 splitters and splitter/180 degree phase shifters and relays to generate 
> the output signals passively from the inputs. I think a digital clock 
> generator would be a LOT more accurate than those phase shifters.
> 
> 
> 
> > > 
> > Actually, you can get J06 HP-59992A calibrators on eBay.
> > 
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > 
> > > 
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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Charles Steinmetz]

Mark wrote:


 I need a simple and cheap circuit to level shift the TTL signal to +/- 0.50V
 It probably needs clean, stable, fast edges and able to drive a 50 ohm load


See attached.  The resistor values shown assume that the source is a 
0-5v rectangular signal able to source +/- 10mA with negligible voltage 
drop (a single 74AC or 74HC gate will do that).  The edges will be as 
fast as the source.  The symmetry and stability will be the same, as well.


Best regards,

Charles

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Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

This may be “inside” the envelope for something like a PIC. If not it’s a 
pretty 
easy task for any of the sub $10 FPGA boards. Given the relatively small 
audience, tacking an extra connector or three onto something might be the
better option. 

The big unknown (at least to me) is how close the signals need to be to ideal. 
If a few ns is “ok” it’s an easy task. If the spec is < 10 ps … not quite as 
easy. 
My guess is the 59992A is overkill, but to what degree? 

Bob

> On Jul 8, 2017, at 9:31 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> To do a full and proper calibration of the HP-53131/53132/53181 counters you 
> need a J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator... lots of luck finding one of 
> those.   Looking at the manual, it is actually a fairly simple device which 
> can be greatly simplified for the task of calibrating a 531XX counter.
> 
> The main task is to generate 10 MHz square waves with 50% duty cycle.  Four 
> versions of the signal are generated (two positive and two with inverted 
> phase).  One of four combos of these signals (P1-P2,  P2-P1,  N1-N2, and 
> N2-N1) are driven to two output connectors.   The 59992A uses splitters and 
> phase shifters to generate the signals and can handle analog signals.  The 
> 531xx cal uses square waves so those signals can be generated digitally.   
> 
> My first idea is to take a 20 MHz oscillator and divide it by two to get a 
> 50% duty cycle. One could also do something like squaring a 10 MHz osc with 
> something like the Wenzel squarer... that would provide a more stable signal 
> frequency wise but that might add some asymmetries to the signal.  Feeding 
> the 10 Mhz osc through a doubler and dividing the squared signal might 
> provide the best solution.
> 
> The 531xx cal procedure uses a +/- 0.50V signal.   I need a simple and cheap 
> circuit to level shift the TTL signal to +/- 0.50V  It probably needs clean, 
> stable, fast edges and able to drive a 50 ohm load (the manuals don't specify 
> the required edge rates and load).   Any ideas for a suitable level shifter / 
> buffer?  It would also be super nice if it could work from a single supply...
> 
> Also,  if such a cal board was laid out would there be any interest in making 
> it available for others to build?  
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