Re: [time-nuts] 1900kHz radiolcation testing on east coast US?

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Is the signal still there?

I looked here on the West Coast - don't really see anything.

Thanks,
John
AJ6BC


On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 12:42 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:

> On 8 December 2014 at 07:24, Chris Wilson  wrote:
> > This is audible here in the UK and elicited many comments on 160
> > meters last night. Seen as oblique striations on SDR receiver displays
> > and audible as a clicking sound. What the devil is it?
> >
> >Best Regards,
> >Chris Wilson.
>
> A mutation of the woodpecker.
>
> Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] 1900kHz radiolcation testing on east coast US?

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Wouldn't you know it - about the time I sent that last e-mail - I am
getting something in the 1.915 MHz range right now - and you could say this
is around 4 Hz or so - I am trying to see if
I can get a match on any modulation type - but nothing so far.  Definitely
wider though.

Regards,
John
AJ6BC


On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:05 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Is the signal still there?
>
> I looked here on the West Coast - don't really see anything.
>
> Thanks,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 12:42 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
> drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 8 December 2014 at 07:24, Chris Wilson  wrote:
>> > This is audible here in the UK and elicited many comments on 160
>> > meters last night. Seen as oblique striations on SDR receiver displays
>> > and audible as a clicking sound. What the devil is it?
>> >
>> >Best Regards,
>> >Chris Wilson.
>>
>> A mutation of the woodpecker.
>>
>> Dave
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>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 1900kHz radiolcation testing on east coast US?

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello,

Can someone please post a *.wav file of what it sounds like provided you
have an SDR set-up?

If you need someplace to post - please send the file to me offlist and I'll
put it on either an ftp site or http.

I am not so convinced what I saw wasn't noise or some stations from China
transmitting - which I have seen in the 160m band lately.
I got an AM band tonight also that was stomping all over ~ 3.87 MHz.

Thanks!
John
AJ6BC


On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:30 AM, Graham  wrote:

> Radiolocation may be a bit misleading.
>
> Some first thought that this was CODAR but it is not, at least not what I
> am familiar with but it may be another variation of an ocean surface wave
> RADAR type of system but it is certainly not like one I have heard before.
>
> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>
>
> On 2014-12-07 20:03, paul swed wrote:
>
>> Not aware of any testing plus it makes no sense these days. LORAN long ago
>> abandoned and was in that range and Loran C in the US dead. UrsaNav has
>> been quite for quite a while.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>>
>>  Hi
>>>
>>> 120 Hz sub structure suggests a (much lower power) switching power supply
>>> run amok. I certainly would not design a system that would have virtually
>>> no immunity to power line noise …..
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>  On Dec 7, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:

 Would any time-nuts know of radiolocation-type testing going on, on east
 coast of US, maybe around Maine? There is a very strong wideband signal

>>> on
>>>
 1900-1920kHz, with a 120Hz substructure and a 4Hz rep-rate, likely

>>> megawatt
>>>
 power range.

 Sound sample (recorded with 2400Hz receiver bandwidth, although the
 whole
 signal is far far wider bandwidth) at
 http://www.trailing-edge.com/1910-intruder.wav

 Pics of the waveform at http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 1910-intruder-1.png

>>> and
>>>
 zoomed in at http://www.trailing-edge.com/1910-intruder-2.png

 Tim N3QE
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to

>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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 and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] 1900kHz radiolcation testing on east coast US?

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Frits,

Interesting.  A little different than what I heard - but of course depends
on the bandwidth somewhat.

How many dB was this up from the noise floor?  Or - what is the signal
level of the received signal?
What modulation did you try to decode or did you just set it wide-AM?

I saw something like I mentioned around 1.915 MHz.  It then dropped down to
around 1.913 MHz - and then it went away.
I did make a recording - but I didn't get the best part due to the signal
moving down a bit - from 1.915 to 1.913 MHz.

Thanks,
John
AJ6BC


On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Frister  wrote:

> Recorded last night. Audio bandwidth is a few kHz, but as mentioned before
> the signal is about 20 kHz wide.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/bnp8zcpgw86l6ww/1910.wav?dl=0
>
> This morning (14:21 UTC) nothing is heard
>
> Frits W1FVB
> Whitefield, NH
>
> On 12/8/14, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Can someone please post a *.wav file of what it sounds like provided you
> > have an SDR set-up?
> >
> > If you need someplace to post - please send the file to me offlist and
> I'll
> > put it on either an ftp site or http.
> >
> > I am not so convinced what I saw wasn't noise or some stations from China
> > transmitting - which I have seen in the 160m band lately.
> > I got an AM band tonight also that was stomping all over ~ 3.87 MHz.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:30 AM, Graham  wrote:
> >
> >> Radiolocation may be a bit misleading.
> >>
> >> Some first thought that this was CODAR but it is not, at least not what
> I
> >> am familiar with but it may be another variation of an ocean surface
> wave
> >> RADAR type of system but it is certainly not like one I have heard
> >> before.
> >>
> >> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2014-12-07 20:03, paul swed wrote:
> >>
> >>> Not aware of any testing plus it makes no sense these days. LORAN long
> >>> ago
> >>> abandoned and was in that range and Loran C in the US dead. UrsaNav has
> >>> been quite for quite a while.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  Hi
> >>>>
> >>>> 120 Hz sub structure suggests a (much lower power) switching power
> >>>> supply
> >>>> run amok. I certainly would not design a system that would have
> >>>> virtually
> >>>> no immunity to power line noise .
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob
> >>>>
> >>>>  On Dec 7, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Would any time-nuts know of radiolocation-type testing going on, on
> >>>>> east
> >>>>> coast of US, maybe around Maine? There is a very strong wideband
> >>>>> signal
> >>>>>
> >>>> on
> >>>>
> >>>>> 1900-1920kHz, with a 120Hz substructure and a 4Hz rep-rate, likely
> >>>>>
> >>>> megawatt
> >>>>
> >>>>> power range.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sound sample (recorded with 2400Hz receiver bandwidth, although the
> >>>>> whole
> >>>>> signal is far far wider bandwidth) at
> >>>>> http://www.trailing-edge.com/1910-intruder.wav
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Pics of the waveform at http://www.trailing-edge.com/
> >>>>> 1910-intruder-1.png
> >>>>>
> >>>> and
> >>>>
> >>>>> zoomed in at http://www.trailing-edge.com/1910-intruder-2.png
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tim N3QE
> >>>>> ___
> >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>>
> >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>>
> >>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>
> >>>> ___
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> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
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> >>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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> >>>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>
> --
> vbradio.wordpress.com
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Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Folkert,

If we had a 'Time Quake' - would we even know?

Regards,
John W.


On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:42 PM, folkert  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> If I understood it well, we should occasionally encounter gravitational
> waves going through, well, the whole galaxy. As time and space are
> intertwined, those ripples may be measured somehow I guess.
> Isn't this that "we as time nuts community" can help the scientific
> world with? E.g. create some kind of grassroots effort where our very
> accurate clocks can detect this? I can imagine all kinds of reasons
> that existing infra for this may not always be able to detect this on
> its own.
> What do you think?
>
>
> Folkert van Heusden
>
> --
> --
> Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox 6T receiver, noisy PPS.

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Dan,

I have a LEA-6T running; have a nice external antenna, etc - it's been
running for several days - I will check the 1PPS and report if I find
anything like what you've discussed.

Regards,
John


On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 4:03 PM,  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>  I've been playing a Ublox 6T receivers on a synergy SSR-6Tru module. The
> unit has been running as part of a GPSDO. In logging the phase between GPS
> PPS and OXCO, a few days ago the normally small amplitude short term (10s
> to ~500s) phase wander became rather erratic. For the previous several
> months the short term wander was around +/- 3nS to 5nS. All of a sudden
> this jumped up to about +/- 25nS.
>  Anyway, the guess was that it was GPS related. So the first step was to
> verify GPS was still using the last survey-in points, which it was. The
> modules was seeing 14 or 15 good birds at a signal strength of 35 to 50.
> For kicks another survey in (48 hour) was started, which just finished up
> today. As soon as the survey in completed the phase wander dropped back
> down to about +/-3nS. The change was immediate, like a switch was thrown.
> The antenna hasn't moved, but the corresponding survey coordinates from
> September and January show a phase center position change of about 1.8m.
> This seems like a pretty small number, and wouldn't have expected it to
> make that big of a difference. At this point I'm not sure what to think.
>
>  Has anyone seen any of the Ulbox 6T modules PPS suddenly get 'noisy'. Is
> there anything else I should be looking at?
>
>  Any recommendations on what I should be setting for NAV5 and NAVX5
> settings that could improve things? Elevation angles, or C/N thresholds?
>
>  I'm quite puzzled by this sudden degradation of the system.
>
>  Thanks,
>  Dan
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] leap second video from NICT Japan

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Dikshie,

Thanks for sharing this.  Wow, not sure we had anything in the US that was
comparable - crowd actually applauded.

Best Regards,
John W.


On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 5:15 PM, dikshie  wrote:

> Hi,
> This is leap second video from NICT Japan.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_VV7d3GEhk
>
> everyone were gather together to see leap second moment.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> --
> -dikshie-
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Re: [time-nuts] Any other useful purpose for Austron 2100F or SRS FS700 receivers in US

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Jim,

Would you happen to have complete schematics for the Austron 2100F?

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 2:38 PM, paul swed  wrote:

> They can be useful as a comparator between two references as long as you
> have a LORAN C simulator to drive the system.
> I built up a unit 3 years ago may still be in the time-nuts archives. It
> was fairly simple to accomplish. I took the reference and drove the
> simulator. Then the simulator feeds the FR700 or austrons 2100s,2100F, and
> 2000. All worked.
> Kind of a crazy thing to do but hated to see the systems die.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 11:14 AM, James Robbins 
> wrote:
>
> > Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the
> > Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the
> > demise of Loran?  Inquiring minds would like to know.  Jim Robbins, N1JR
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Time-Nuts,

Was better than 500 nS accuracy ever achieved with Loran?

73's,
John Westmoreland
AJ6BC


On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Dale Cannon  wrote:

> Folks,
>
>
>
> I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I
> did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less
> than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in
> the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means
> that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up
> at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem..
>
>
>
> Dale Cannon, KS4FA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Springer textbooks >10 years old now available for download as PDF at no cost

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Thanks Gregory!

Happy 2016!
John W.
AJ6BC


On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 5:42 PM, paul swed  wrote:

> Scott,
> Thank you for sharing these with Time-nuts.
> I have to say some good reading over the winter.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Scott Newell 
> wrote:
>
> > At 10:48 AM 12/29/2015, Bob Camp wrote:
> >
> > Is there a practical way to download the entire book rather than doing 60
> >> individual
> >> downloads for each fragment of the text?
> >>
> >
> > Sure, click the "Download book" link? (OK, I had to create one of 'em.)
> >
> >
> > > The Quantum Beat
> >> > http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-1-4757-2923-8
> >>
> >
> > http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-1-4757-2923-8.pdf
> >
> >
> > > Frequency Standards and Metrology
> >> > http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-642-74501-0
> >>
> >
> > http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-642-74501-0.pdf
> >
> >
> > > Frequency Measurement and Control
> >> > http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/3-540-44991-4
> >>
> >
> > http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F3-540-44991-4.pdf
> >
> >
> > --
> > newell  N5TNL
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Instrument BASIC

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Magnus,

I used to be responsible for a couple of labs in the late 90's early 2000's
where we had several of these.

First - do you have this option installed:
Add Agilent Instrument BASIC 1C2  ?

We automated the VSA's using GPIB and TCL.  I jumped through some hoops to
make the TCL library
publicly available on SourceForge - and it is still there.  TCL is a basic
like language for easy instrument
control and worth looking at if you want this to be as easy as possible.

I noticed there are some nifty GPIB to USB adapters available now.

We ran 24/7 this way doing low noise analysis.

Best Regards,
John W.
AJ6BC


On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Magnus Danielson <
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> Fellow time-nuts,
>
> This is a little off the normal time-stuff, but I wonder if people just
> happens to have some suitable input to give.
>
> I have a couple of HP89410A/89441A and would like to see if it would be
> nice to see what could be done using the instrument BASIC. How would I be
> able to enable or install it?
>
> Now, don't even bother to write comments about how you can do better using
> software control from a PC with this and that tool, this is explicitly not
> part of the question.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Instrument BASIC

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Magnus,

There's an outside chance a buddy of mine may know what to do - I will
check with him but no promises unfortunately.

It could take a few days.

The lib on SourceForge is called NET-SNMP-TCL - Com21 who became TurboNet
(in a manner of speaking) used to use it a lot in addition to the labs I
had at
C-Cube Microsystems/LSI Logic (after the purchase).

I'd like to ask you how you are keeping those things calibrated but that's
even more off topic I suppose than the topic of this thread.

I will let you know what I find out.

Best Regards,
John W.
AJ6BC


On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Magnus Danielson <
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> John,
>
> On 02/27/2016 11:01 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>
>> Magnus,
>>
>> I used to be responsible for a couple of labs in the late 90's early
>> 2000's
>> where we had several of these.
>>
>> First - do you have this option installed:
>> Add Agilent Instrument BASIC 1C2  ?
>>
>
> Unfortunatly not. The trick question is if there is any chance of enable
> or install it.
>
> We automated the VSA's using GPIB and TCL.  I jumped through some hoops to
>> make the TCL library
>> publicly available on SourceForge - and it is still there.  TCL is a basic
>> like language for easy instrument
>> control and worth looking at if you want this to be as easy as possible.
>>
>
> I've worked with TCL and have tried to avoid it in this millennium.
> Could be interesting to look at never the less.
>
> I noticed there are some nifty GPIB to USB adapters available now.
>>
>> We ran 24/7 this way doing low noise analysis.
>>
>
> Indeed. That is one of many uses.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>
> Best Regards,
>> John W.
>> AJ6BC
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Magnus Danielson <
>> mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>>
>> Fellow time-nuts,
>>>
>>> This is a little off the normal time-stuff, but I wonder if people just
>>> happens to have some suitable input to give.
>>>
>>> I have a couple of HP89410A/89441A and would like to see if it would be
>>> nice to see what could be done using the instrument BASIC. How would I be
>>> able to enable or install it?
>>>
>>> Now, don't even bother to write comments about how you can do better
>>> using
>>> software control from a PC with this and that tool, this is explicitly
>>> not
>>> part of the question.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Magnus
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>> ___
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>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Instrument BASIC

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

To Answer Paul and Jim.

The code can be downloaded here:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/net-snmp-tcl/files/net-snmp-tcl/Alpha%200.1/

Basically an interface to control instruments over SNMP using TCL - using
Net-SNMP as the base.

We used this primarily to control VSA's.

I imagine this can still be used as a starting base - updating what MIB's
and other options you may need.

The UG7 option may be required to run this on the 89441A.

To answer Jim - when we were developing this - we decided to use SNMP
(ethernet) vs. GPIB just because we had so many of these
running and had results being posted so people could remotely access.  SNMP
was the choice.  It ran very well.

If anyone is interested and you can't download the code for some reason -
let me know and I will e-mail it to you.

The zipfile is 865 KB.  It is called: net-snmp-tcl-alpha01.zip - we had
planned to release more but then the economy went dot-com-bomb.
But, this is fundamentally what we ran all of our test automation with
regarding the VSA's.

Best Regards,
John W.
AJ6BC


On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 3:18 PM, paul swed  wrote:

> John would that be the command line interpreter?
> There are a lot of TCLs on sourceforge
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 5:01 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Magnus,
> >
> > I used to be responsible for a couple of labs in the late 90's early
> 2000's
> > where we had several of these.
> >
> > First - do you have this option installed:
> > Add Agilent Instrument BASIC 1C2  ?
> >
> > We automated the VSA's using GPIB and TCL.  I jumped through some hoops
> to
> > make the TCL library
> > publicly available on SourceForge - and it is still there.  TCL is a
> basic
> > like language for easy instrument
> > control and worth looking at if you want this to be as easy as possible.
> >
> > I noticed there are some nifty GPIB to USB adapters available now.
> >
> > We ran 24/7 this way doing low noise analysis.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > John W.
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Magnus Danielson <
> > mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Fellow time-nuts,
> > >
> > > This is a little off the normal time-stuff, but I wonder if people just
> > > happens to have some suitable input to give.
> > >
> > > I have a couple of HP89410A/89441A and would like to see if it would be
> > > nice to see what could be done using the instrument BASIC. How would I
> be
> > > able to enable or install it?
> > >
> > > Now, don't even bother to write comments about how you can do better
> > using
> > > software control from a PC with this and that tool, this is explicitly
> > not
> > > part of the question.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Magnus
> > > ___
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> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Instrument BASIC

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Magnus,

This was the best answer I got so far - I am sure this isn't what you're
looking for:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-89441A-Vector-Signal-Analyzer-Opt-1C2-AY9-UFG-AY7-AYA-/252278222960?hash=item3abcf43070:g:uRMAAOxyNo9SojsE

I have one more person that I am waiting for an answer/suggestion from - I
am not sure if there are any 3rd parties out there supporting this other
than what you might find on eBay.

Interesting aside is some of these are selling for more than they were
being let go for after the first dot-com-bomb.

Best Regards,
John W.
AJ6BC


On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 4:25 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Magnus,
>
> There's an outside chance a buddy of mine may know what to do - I will
> check with him but no promises unfortunately.
>
> It could take a few days.
>
> The lib on SourceForge is called NET-SNMP-TCL - Com21 who became TurboNet
> (in a manner of speaking) used to use it a lot in addition to the labs I
> had at
> C-Cube Microsystems/LSI Logic (after the purchase).
>
> I'd like to ask you how you are keeping those things calibrated but that's
> even more off topic I suppose than the topic of this thread.
>
> I will let you know what I find out.
>
> Best Regards,
> John W.
> AJ6BC
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Magnus Danielson <
> mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> On 02/27/2016 11:01 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>>
>>> Magnus,
>>>
>>> I used to be responsible for a couple of labs in the late 90's early
>>> 2000's
>>> where we had several of these.
>>>
>>> First - do you have this option installed:
>>> Add Agilent Instrument BASIC 1C2  ?
>>>
>>
>> Unfortunatly not. The trick question is if there is any chance of enable
>> or install it.
>>
>> We automated the VSA's using GPIB and TCL.  I jumped through some hoops to
>>> make the TCL library
>>> publicly available on SourceForge - and it is still there.  TCL is a
>>> basic
>>> like language for easy instrument
>>> control and worth looking at if you want this to be as easy as possible.
>>>
>>
>> I've worked with TCL and have tried to avoid it in this millennium.
>> Could be interesting to look at never the less.
>>
>> I noticed there are some nifty GPIB to USB adapters available now.
>>>
>>> We ran 24/7 this way doing low noise analysis.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed. That is one of many uses.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>> John W.
>>> AJ6BC
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Magnus Danielson <
>>> mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Fellow time-nuts,
>>>>
>>>> This is a little off the normal time-stuff, but I wonder if people just
>>>> happens to have some suitable input to give.
>>>>
>>>> I have a couple of HP89410A/89441A and would like to see if it would be
>>>> nice to see what could be done using the instrument BASIC. How would I
>>>> be
>>>> able to enable or install it?
>>>>
>>>> Now, don't even bother to write comments about how you can do better
>>>> using
>>>> software control from a PC with this and that tool, this is explicitly
>>>> not
>>>> part of the question.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Magnus
>>>> ___
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>
>>>> ___
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>> ___
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>> and follow the instructions there.
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>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Now For Something Completely Different...GPS Security

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

have any
people that understand it very well. They've got one person without any
budget to speak of."

Mr Parkinson, now a professor at Stanford University, created GPS in the
1970s on behalf of the US military - who still control the system of
satellites today.

Use of the system for civilian purposes has exploded with the development
of mobile technologies.

Though the US military has in place protection that could give its
navigation systems a high-degree of robustness, most civilian GPS systems
have none, Mr Parkinson said. He also warned that the EU's new EURO 5bn Galileo
satellite system, created as an alternative to the US-controlled GPS, was
equally at risk.

Richard Peckham, who helped develop the Galileo system, said that although
its public service was encrypted, making it more difficult to hack and more
secure for users such as the emergency services and public utilities, it
was still vulnerable to jamming and interference.

The US, which initially opposed the European satellite constellation, has
come around to supporting it, in part because Washington has realised it
needs a GPS back-up system that is neither Russian nor Chinese.

A report compiled for the UK government and released this week warned that
"the conditions are present for a catastrophic 'Black Swan' event" that
would knock out one or more critical GPS systems. The report identified
thousands of instances of GPS jamming occurring annually.

Disruption of satellite navigation systems has so far remained a relatively
low-level problem for governments. Small-range jamming devices can be
acquired easily via the internet. However, more powerful jamming equipment
is becoming increasingly easy to acquire.

Over the past few years South Korea has witnessed huge jamming attacks
against its GPS systems, launched by North Korea. The areas affected
stretch 100km into South Korean territory, and include major airports and
shipping lanes. More than 1,000 ships and 250 planes had their travel disrupted
by North Korean jamming attacks in
2012<http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/aa557dd4-944f-11e1-bb47-00144feab49a.html?siteedition=uk>
.

Seoul has responded by ordering the construction of a land-based antenna
array over more than 40 sites to provide a back-up system.

The UK has already begun to build a similar system, primarily to help
shipping in the event of GPS disruption. The stretch of water between
Britain and France is one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world, but
navigation throughout it could be disrupted by a single portable jamming
device.

"When a ship loses GPS, it isn't like a car satnav," said Professor David
Last, a consultant to the UK's General Lighthouse Authority. "Multiple
systems fail simultaneously."

Prof Last cited a report into navigation vulnerabilities* from the Royal
Academy of Engineering*
<http://www.raeng.org.uk/news/publications/list/reports/RAoE_Global_Navigation_Systems_Report.pdf>that
found "there was barely a single area of commerce or industry in the UK
that wasn't dependent on GPS in some way."
 RELATED TOPICS

   - United States of
America<http://www.ft.com/topics/places/United_States_of_America>
   ,
   - United Kingdom <http://www.ft.com/topics/places/United_Kingdom>,
   - Drones <http://www.ft.com/topics/themes/Drones>
   -



On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 7:20 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Hello Time Nuts,
>
> I thought this would be of interest to the group:
>
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fadf1714-940d-11e3-bf0c-00144feab7de.html
>
> Regards,
> John W.
>
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[time-nuts] Now For Something Completely Different...GPS Security

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Time Nuts,

I thought this would be of interest to the group:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fadf1714-940d-11e3-bf0c-00144feab7de.html

Regards,
John W.
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Re: [time-nuts] ID this filter

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Pete.

I bet these guys can help:

http://www.klmicrowave.com/filter-specifications.php

Regards,
John W.



On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote:

>
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/111617808980322733757/albums/5982995737892775185
>
> Any have the specs ?
>
> -pete
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Re: [time-nuts] Software for Brilliant Instruments B1220?

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Richard,

Do you mind telling us how far that set you back?

I did a quick archive search - I found a post where Shalom stated the BI220
cost:  *BI220 is $2,950*

They are local to me - so I am going to check out this piece of equipment
too - looks like a good/great choice for doing the performance metric
measurements that we do in our
'hobby'.

Thanks for posting this.

Best Regards,
John Westmoreland


On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 10:11 AM,  wrote:

> Contact Brilliant Instruments (4088660426). I was at the office yesterday
> loading the new version that they just released on my TIA's and can tell
> you The new software works beautifully. They are amazing to work with,
> being the little guy on the block making amazing devices and all. Ask for
> Shalom or Daniel and I am sure they can get you set up and counting.
>
> Rob
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Richard Parrish" 
> Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 11:55:09
> To: 
> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> Subject: [time-nuts] Software for Brilliant Instruments B1220?
>
> Does anyone have access to a copy of the software for the Brilliant
> Instruments B1220?  I just purchased one off of eBay and, of course, they
> don't have it.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Richard Parrish
>
> calc...@swbell.net
>
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[time-nuts] Peregrine Ends Prescalers

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

I just found out this last week that Peregrine has decided to EOL all of
their prescalers.

Thought that could be of interest to some in the group.

Regards,
John W.
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Re: [time-nuts] Another "atomic" clock question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

To the Mike that posted:

http://www.pst.netii.net/patents.htm - I tried going to your site - can't
reach it.  Is the site operational?  I wanted to take a look at your
patents.

Thanks,
John Westmoreland





On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> In modern GPS modules the sawtooth error is no longer truncated at the 1
> ns level. The have been giving you far more resolution than that for 10
> years now.  The resolution is not just useless bits. If you compare the
> result to a cesium standard they do improve the GPS.
>
> Bob
>
> On Mar 6, 2014, at 1:30 AM, m...@febo.com wrote:
>
> >
> > Wow! One post and I've got the two top heavyweights against me! Let
> > me introduce myself.
> >
> > I am a retired electronics engineer with over 50 years of experience
> > in instrumentation and metrology. Here is my patent list:
> >
> > http://www.pst.netii.net/patents.htm
> >
> > Among the  achievements  listed,   I   claim  credit  for  the first
> > disclosure of the now universal dual-d phase-frequency detector, and
> > for the technique called "Phase Margin Analysis" as applied  to hard
> > disk bdrive   it   error   analysis.   The   technology  has evolved
> > tremendously since  the 1970's, but this was the first to  show that
> > rapid bit  error  analysis was possible. The internet  would  not be
> > possible without  this  basic  technique,   since  it  would  not be
> > possible to manufacture hard disks fast enough.
> >
> > Another significant  invention is Binary Sampling. I will  talk more
> > about this later, but some information is on my web site at
> >
> > http://www.pst.netii.net/sampler/index.htm
> >
> > also starting on page 6 of
> >
> > http://www.pst.netii.net/pdfs/tdrpaper.pdf
> >
> > One of  the  significant  advantages of the  Binary  Sampler  is the
> > elimination of Gaussian and Impulse noise. Unlike conventional diode
> > bridge samplers,   the   performance   improves   as   the frequency
> > increases.
> >
> > After working with the Binary Sampler, I am always dismayed  to view
> > the noisy graphs presented in time-nuts and other forums.  The noise
> > is hiding  the interesting stuff and making it  virtually impossible
> > to understand what is actually going on. I Think the  Binary Sampler
> > can do a lot to help unravel the issues.
> >
> > I now intersperse replies:
> >
> >> Hi(
> >
> >> While you  see  a lot of pretty plots in GPS  spec  sheets showing
> >> clean looking  sawtooth  sort of offsets marching  down  the page,
> >> that?s not  what  I see on a real receiver.  The  real  data, even
> >> compared to  a 5071A is much more random. It  will  indeed ?hang?,
> >> but it  also  will  reverse far more often  than  the  pretty data
> >> sheets suggest.  A  simple model would be to add  the  sawtooth to
> >> some sort of random process. The sawtooth comes from the TCXO, the
> >> random looking stuff comes from the GPS solution.
> >
> >> The oscillator in most timing modules is one form or another  of a
> >> TCXO. Often  they have digital compensation (one way  or another).
> >> Their frequency versus temperature curves are not the simple third
> >> order curve you would expect from a bare crystal. They have a much
> >> higher order frequency versus temperature curve (6th, 8th ?). That
> >> makes even  the  simple ?frequency goes down  when  temp  goes up?
> >> decision pretty  tough.  If  they  are  doing  some  sort  of auto
> >> correction TCXO based on the GPS it would get even more  crazy. In
> >> that case the curve would be changing real time.
> >
> >> Since the  sawtooth changes multiple ?runs? per minute  in  a room
> >> that holds  2C  / 30 minutes, you could guess  that  a  control of
> >> 0.01C would  be needed to have any luck  steering  the oscillator.
> >> It?s nowhere near that simple, so that?s not even up to  the ?wild
> >> guess? level of confidence. If it?s close, that?s not going  to be
> >> very easy all by it?s self. A double loop control is likely  to be
> >> needed.
> >
> >> Combine the  random jitter with the  (possibly)  tough temperature
> >> control problem,  and frequency reversals - this is a real  can of
> >> worms.
> >
> >> ???
> >
> >> Way lots easier approach:
> >
> >> 1) You already need a CPU to set up the GPS, read the sawtooth data
> stream and do a control loop. It?s free / same with either approach.
> >> 2) Rip a VCTCXO out of something (or buy one cheap).
> >> 3) PWM control the TCXO, use it as your CPU clock
> >> 4) Generate a PPS with a timer output on the CPU.
> >> 5) Do a cheap / simple / easy TDC on the GPS pps, it will cost less
> that what ever was going to drive the heater.
> >
> >> Now you have a GPSDO with a much lower jitter PPS output. You need
> >> to write  from scratch code for the CPU either way.  The  code for
> >> the GPSDO  is probably simpler than the temperature  control code.
> >> It?s certainly  no more difficult. This way you have an  output at
> >> what ever the TCXO frequency is for ?o

Re: [time-nuts] Another "atomic" clock question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello David,

Not sure what is wrong here - I still can't reach it.

If it isn't too much trouble - can you send me a screen shot off-list - I
can look up the patents as long as the numbers are listed.

Thanks!
John W.
j...@westmorelandengineering.com



On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:09 PM, David J Taylor <
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> To the Mike that posted:
>
> http://www.pst.netii.net/patents.htm - I tried going to your site - can't
> reach it.  Is the site operational?  I wanted to take a look at your
> patents.
>
> Thanks,
> John Westmoreland
> ==
>
> Jon,
>
> It's working OK from Edinburgh at 07:08 UTC.
>
> David
> --
> SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Another "atomic" clock question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

David,

Thanks - got it.

Best Regards,
John W.


On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:53 PM, David J Taylor <
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Hello David,
>
> Not sure what is wrong here - I still can't reach it.
>
> If it isn't too much trouble - can you send me a screen shot off-list - I
> can look up the patents as long as the numbers are listed.
>
> Thanks!
> John W.
> 
>
> Screen-shot and page HTML sent as requested.
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
> --
> SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
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Re: [time-nuts] more ADEV tools

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Tom,

Thank you for posting this.

Regards,
John Westmoreland
On Mar 20, 2014 3:16 PM, "Tom Van Baak"  wrote:

> I wrote two new ADEV command line tools that some of you may be interested
> in.
>
> adev4 calculates adev for a linear range, from tau to tau step tau.
> adev5 calculates adev for a logarithmic range, from log(tau) to
> log(tau) step log(tau).
>
> The both calculate ADEV, MDEV, HDEV, or TDEV.
> For large data files, performance is ten or a hundred times faster than
> other adev tools.
>
> Grab adev4.c adev5.c (windows: adev4.exe adev5.exe) under
> www.LeapSecond.com/tools/
> In a couple of days I'll post a note which will explain why I needed these
> tools.
>
> /tvb
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Re: [time-nuts] Japan / Time-Nuts

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Tom,

If you have time - you may visit New Japan Radio:

http://www.njr.com/

3-10, Nihonbashi Yokoyama-cho,Chuo-ku, Tokyo 103-8456, Japan
TEL: + 81-3-5642-8222 / FAX: + 81-3-5642-8220

I believe there are people there that also deal or know those that know
about vintage equipment in the area.

Regards,
John W.


On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:

> I might be in Tokyo in late May (2014) with hopefully a spare day or two.
>
> Are there any geek & technology or precise time & frequency locations /
> activities / events / people I should seek out while I'm there? Are there
> any high-precision clock or time-nuts or vintage-electronics collectors in
> Japan that I should meet?
>
> Replies to the list, or off-list email is ok: t...@leapsecond.com
>
> Thanks,
> /tvb
> www.LeapSecond.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise and geomagnetism

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Antonio,

That is a great question.  I am not 100% sure of the answer myself, but I
am sure others will chime in.

I used to be responsible for an RF lab in which we did a lot of low-noise
measurements; had shielded racks, chamber, etc. - I can tell you from
experience that
anything that can raise or effect the noise floor can affect the
measurement(s).  So, in this case, I would think that is true; so I would
postulate that it is possible.

But, there may be some on the list that have made these measurements and
will share their experience and expert knowledge.

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 2:18 PM, iov...@inwind.it  wrote:

> As our geomagnetic field gets quite noisy during geomagnetic storms (which
> are connected to solar activity), I was wondering if this could affect
> phase noise of oscillators. I see that theoretically it could. Has anybody
> ever measured phase noise increments which could be explained this
> way?Antonio I8IOV
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[time-nuts] Maybe A Little Off Topic: connectBlue acquired by u-blox

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

Thought this may interest some of you - I am certainly interested:

http://www.u-blox.com/en/ad-hoc-releases/1659-u-blox-acquires-connectblue-adds-wi-fi-and-bluetooth-connectivity.html

Best Regards,
John W.
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[time-nuts] OT?: Hittite to be bought by AD

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello,

Thought this could be of interest to some of you:

Chipmaker Analog Devices to buy Hittite in $2 billion deal | Reuters


Regards,
John W.
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[time-nuts] GPS-III

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

Does anyone know yet of any companies that are making GPS-III receiver
chip-sets/modules yet?

Some web-sites on GPS-III:

http://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/
http://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/civilsignals/
http://www.losangeles.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=18830

Regards,
John W.
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Re: [time-nuts] Clock level conversion 5V -> 3.3V

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Mark,

Lots of good parts on this page:

http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=648

But as others are pointing out - it depends

Regards,
John


On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Mark Haun  wrote:

> Is there a "best" way to do this without adding phase noise?  For example,
> a
> 5V OCXO into an ADF4002, or a 3.3V or even 1.8V logic input.  Is a
> resistive
> divider the way to go?
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Yokogawa TA320 Time Interval Analyzer

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hmm, I think they are Japanese:
http://www.yokogawa.com/ydk/mr/marine/cs/ydkmr-ma-cs-contactus-top-en.htm

Regards,
John Westmoreland

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:

> I see this on eBay
>
> http://m.ebay.com/itm/220505574616
>
> Note that the seller has misspelled the manufacturers name. Has anyone used
> one? I have never even heard of this manufacturer - I guess it is Chinese.
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Re: [time-nuts] WTB: GPS Antenna Splitter

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Dave,

Can you please let us know what you go with for your splitter choice?

I noticed companies like EndRun Technologies use ones from these folks:
http://gpsnetworking.com/GPS-antenna-splitters.asp

TESSCO might stock those if you ask them.

Regards,
John W.


On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Missed the survey question…
>
> If a ns in free air is about 1 foot (30 cm), then you probably want a
> survey that is better than 6” to keep the error down. You do not want to
> have the antennas on top of each other, so yes, the GPS will need a survey
> / location each time you change antennas. If you go with the 10’ spacing,
> then you will get some pretty big jumps without switching the location.
>
> Bob
>
> On Oct 6, 2014, at 4:01 PM, Dave M  wrote:
>
> > Does anyone in the group have, or can point me to, a low-cost (but not
> > cheap) 2-port splitter for a GPS antenna?  Those on Ebay are rather
> > expensive.
> >
> > I have two GPSDO units, and have both an older timing antenna and a new
> > choke ring antenna (Thanks, Pete L).  I already have one 2-port splitter
> > (working well), but my intent is to connect both antennas through the
> > splitters and a couple coaxial relays so that I can, with the twist of a
> > switch, allow me to run each GPS from a different antenna, or both from
> the
> > same antenna.  I would like to gather some data as to the differences
> > between the two antennas.  I know I could switch the connections
> manually,
> > but I like the idea of a switch to sort of automate the connections, and
> I'd
> > need another splitter anyway.
> >
> > Before I go to the trouble and expense of building upon this idea, are
> there
> > any comments as to the value of the project?
> > Some questions come to mind:
> > I'm thinking about mounting both antennas on the same mast, at the same
> > elevation, just separated by a couple feet.  Any problems that I should
> be
> > aware of by putting both antennas so close together?  Will that small
> > distance have a noticeable effect when switching a receiver from one
> antenna
> > to the other?  Will the GPS notice the difference and want to do another
> > survey?
> >
> > Thanks for your comments.
> > Dave M
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] WTB: GPS Antenna Splitter

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

 Björn,
Thanks for letting us know - price isn't too bad - gotta love the P/N - ZAP
D - makes you wonder if they have a sense of humor.

Regards,
John W.


*Ordering,Pricing & Availability Information*
<http://www.minicircuits.com/MCLStore/ModelPriceDisplay#>*Select Country*
<http://www.minicircuits.com/MCLStore/ModelPriceDisplay#>Part NumberData
SheetDescriptionConnector TypeBracket OptionT&RAvailability
1-4Price Each ($)Click to add to
Shopping Cart1-45-910-24>=25(+) Symbol indicates this Model is
available as RoHS
Compliant/Pb Free
<http://www.minicircuits.com/quality/environmental_introduction.html>.
ZAPD-2DC+ <http://www.minicircuits.com/MCLStore/ModelPriceDisplay#>Data
Sheet <http://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/ZAPD-2DC+.pdf>Power Divider, RoHSBNC
--In Stock$ 74.95$ 74.95$ 64.95$ 63.95-ZAPD-2DC-N+
<http://www.minicircuits.com/MCLStore/ModelPriceDisplay#>Data Sheet
<http://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/ZAPD-2DC+.pdf>Power Divider, RoHSN--In
Stock$ 79.95$ 79.95$ 69.95$ 68.95-ZAPD-2DC-S+
<http://www.minicircuits.com/MCLStore/ModelPriceDisplay#>Data Sheet
<http://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/ZAPD-2DC+.pdf>Power Divider, RoHSSMA--In
Stock$ 74.95$ 74.95$ 64.95$ 63.95-

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 4:43 AM, "Björn Gabrielsson" 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> For those with a junk basket full of generic splitter/combiners and
> DC-blocks, go ahead and put something together. Note that most receivers
> wish to have a DC-load of around 200ohm to not raise antenna fault alarms.
>
> I have not found a dedicated GPS splitter cheaper than this from
> Mini-Circuits
>
> http://217.34.103.131/pdfs/ZAPD-2DC+.pdf
>
> When trolling the online auction sites, GPS Source and GPS Networking
> splitters are often less pricy than the HP/Agilent/Symmetricom/Microsemi
> ones.
>
> --
>
> Björn
>
> > Hi:
> >
> > This works great and has minimal cost.
> > http://www.prc68.com/I/4GPS.shtml
> >
> > Have Fun,
> >
> > Brooke Clarke
> > http://www.PRC68.com
> > http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> > http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
> >
> > John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
> >> Dave,
> >>
> >> Can you please let us know what you go with for your splitter choice?
> >>
> >> I noticed companies like EndRun Technologies use ones from these folks:
> >> http://gpsnetworking.com/GPS-antenna-splitters.asp
> >>
> >> TESSCO might stock those if you ask them.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> John W.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >>> Missed the survey question…
> >>>
> >>> If a ns in free air is about 1 foot (30 cm), then you probably want a
> >>> survey that is better than 6† to keep the error down. You do not want
> >>> to
> >>> have the antennas on top of each other, so yes, the GPS will need a
> >>> survey
> >>> / location each time you change antennas. If you go with the 10’
> >>> spacing,
> >>> then you will get some pretty big jumps without switching the location.
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
> >>> On Oct 6, 2014, at 4:01 PM, Dave M  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Does anyone in the group have, or can point me to, a low-cost (but not
> >>>> cheap) 2-port splitter for a GPS antenna?  Those on Ebay are rather
> >>>> expensive.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have two GPSDO units, and have both an older timing antenna and a
> >>>> new
> >>>> choke ring antenna (Thanks, Pete L).  I already have one 2-port
> >>>> splitter
> >>>> (working well), but my intent is to connect both antennas through the
> >>>> splitters and a couple coaxial relays so that I can, with the twist of
> >>>> a
> >>>> switch, allow me to run each GPS from a different antenna, or both
> >>>> from
> >>> the
> >>>> same antenna.  I would like to gather some data as to the differences
> >>>> between the two antennas.  I know I could switch the connections
> >>> manually,
> >>>> but I like the idea of a switch to sort of automate the connections,
> >>>> and
> >>> I'd
> >>>> need another splitter anyway.
> >>>>
> >>>> Before I go to the trouble and expense of building upon this idea, are
> >>> there
> >>>> any comments as to the value of the

Re: [time-nuts] GPS jump

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Jim,

I am just a novice here - but, when you say noticeable, can you please tell
us how noticeable?  What is a small downturn vs. a noticeable one?

I just put up an outdoor GPS antenna.  If there is anything I can do to
possibly help, please give me instructions.
I do not have direct access to any Hydrogen masers at the moment.

Thanks,
John W.



On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 4:43 PM, Jim Palfreyman  wrote:

> Folks,
>
> We look after 5 separate hydrogen masers spread all over Australia and we
> collect tic phases between the masers and the GPS.
>
> On around ~Oct 7 we have noticed that the normal steady straight line (with
> standard daily noise) took a noticeable downward turn - on all 5 masers.
>
> Did anyone else who tracks H-masers notice this as well?
>
> Is it JPL making corrections?
>
>
> Jim Palfreyman
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Re: [time-nuts] Lightning arrestors for GPSDO antenna

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Dave,

I think we had a similar question recently - and I have been told the
PolyPhaser products are gas tubes - I haven't opened one up yet.
TESSCO sells these online - you can find them here:
https://www.tessco.com/products/displayProducts.do?groupId=90143&subgroupId=91046

Regards,
John W.


On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:23 PM, ed breya  wrote:

> Of all device types, I think gas tubes are the best for this sort of
> application - very low C, and high surge current rating. I'm picturing the
> kind that are used in power supplies and such for limiting line transients
> - about 1 cm dia and length with axial leads. I don't know what kind are
> used in "lightning arrestors," if they are the same or scaled up in size.
>
> Whether you make it able to take a direct hit depends on how big of a hit,
> your budget, and the environment of the antenna and lines. If it's the
> tallest thing in a huge field in a lightning-prone area, then it could be a
> big issue, but I don't think most people have that situation.
>
> You may want to look at the US National Electrical Code (NEC) for ideas -
> I believe that subject is covered there. The main thing there would be
> safety against injuries and fire, even if the equipment is destroyed.
>
> I think what you would want is kind of a pi network - the lowest impedance
> path to ground at the antenna zone that can be practically realized, then a
> high common-mode impedance (or even fusible) line to carry the signal to
> the building, then another low impedance path to ground at the building.
> This means that in my opinion, you should not put the feedline in metal
> conduit unless it's essential for protection - or underground, which should
> improve the grounding. You want the antenna zone to absorb the brunt of any
> discharge, then use the higher line Zcm to hopefully give some degree of
> isolation from there to the building.
>
> Ed
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite module

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Said,

What tool(s) did you use to generate that data and output the graph?

Thanks,
John


On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 6:10 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

> Jim,
>
> Here is the resulting 10MHz phase noise plot from the 20MHz TCXO  output:
>
>
> In a message dated 10/17/2014 11:32:49 Pacific Daylight Time,
> saidj...@aol.com writes:
>
>
> Hello Jim,
> let me answer through Time Nuts as this may interest  other parties as
> well.
> Yes, using a fast flip flop to generate 10MHz out  of the 20MHz TCXO 3.0V
> CMOS output from the LTE-Lite module will preserve the  phase noise
> (actually
> improve it by up to 6dB due to the 20log(n/m) noise  improvement) and will
> not add any spurs if you use the clean 3.0V output from  the LTE-Lite
> module
> or an external clean power supply (please note the  LTE-Lite TCXO RF output
> is 3.0V due to the internal 3.3V to 3.0V Low Noise  regulator feeding the
> TCXO and buffer).
> Use fast logic such as 74AC74, 74FCT74, or the  like. We do exactly that on
> our ULN-2550 boards to generate 50MHz and 25MHz  out of the 100MHz, and
> using a fast CMOS divider will result in additive  phase noise that will be
> below the crystal oscillator phase noise  floor.
> That will result in significantly better phase noise  and much lower spurs
> than using the synthesized 10MHz output from the board,  and one 74' chip
> can generate both 10MHz and 5MHz out of the 20MHz LTE-Lite  output. This is
> exactly what we would do here if we needed a clean 10MHz from  the 20MHz
> LTE-Lite board.
> I believe you can order low-noise divide-by-2  blue-top boxes from Wenzel
> already packaged-up and connectorized as  well.
> Hope that helps,
> Said
> Hi Said
> I was one of those looking for 10Mhz but I just thought  again now that it
> might be just as well to divide the standard 20Mhz output by  2 using a FF.
> I think that would preserve all the desirable characteristics of  the 20Mhz
> signal which I understand to just be square wave at CMOS 3.3v  levels
> anyway. Is that correct?
> Thanks
> Jim
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] "GPS once a day issues" ?

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Bob,

You mean the Sun, correct?

Regards,
John
 On Oct 20, 2014 4:16 AM, "Bob Camp"  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Yes, but there’s this large object in the sky that modifies the ionosphere
> as it travels in a “about one a day” track. It appears to be coming up just
> about now, but I do need more coffee to be sure …
>
> The combination of the constellation and the ionosphere are what I believe
> give you the once a day (rather than once per 12 hours) bump.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Oct 20, 2014, at 3:43 AM, Magnus Danielson <
> mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > Since the satellite orbit the earth with a period of 11 hours and 58
> minutes, it is actually twice a day.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
> >
> > On 10/20/2014 03:50 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> The GPS constellation repeats roughly once a day. It is not at all
> uncommon to have a “worst case” sattelite  geometry for a given antenna
> location. If you have one, it will repeat once a day and show up as a bump
> in the timing out of your GPS module. If you track long term data, it will
> / may / can keep you from getting to the sort of stability you would expect
> in the 100,000 second range. It’s one of the main reasons that things like
> GPSD-Rb’s lock up with time constants much longer than 100K seconds. Yes
> having a Cs or something similar helps a lot looking for this sort of thing.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 9:26 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Bob Camp,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In your response to Chris, you said: "Once you have it “right” you
> really need to check it over a month or two to watch for GPS “once a day”
> issues. "
> >>>
> >>> Could I ask you what you meant by these "once a day issues"?  Was this
> a general comment, or was it about something specific?  As you know I'm
> working on a GPSDO and am doing a lot of testing, so if there's something
> else I should be looking for, please let me know.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Bob - AE6RV
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>> ___
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[time-nuts] Jackson Labs' Web-Site

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

A little off topic maybe - is it just me or is the Jackson-Labs.com site
down/offline?

http://www.jackson-labs.com
http://jackson-labs.com

Regards,
John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] Jackson Labs' Web-Site

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Brian,

I hope Said knows.

I hope someone doesn't rip off their domain.

Regards,
John W.


On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Brian Inglis <
brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca> wrote:

> nslookup fails and whois shows their domain registration expired yesterday
>
>
> On 2013-09-03 01:42, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> A little off topic maybe - is it just me or is the Jackson-Labs.com site
>> down/offline?
>>
>> http://www.jackson-labs.com
>> http://jackson-labs.com
>>
>> Regards,
>> John Westmoreland
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>>
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS outage?

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

Not to go off on a tangent here but are there 'time nuts' distributed
around the globe in such a way as we'd know about an outage?

One good hiccup by the Sun and it could cause an outage - correct?  (
http://www.spaceweather.com)

It wasn't so long ago we were told the Iridium 'Flares' were all that were
left of Motorola's project and now you can go buy a phone here:
http://iridium.com/default.aspx

Regards,
John W.






On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 8:06 PM, Chris Albertson
wrote:

> Can anyone estimate how many GPS jammers there are in the New England
> area?   There just might be "thousands".  I don't know.
>
> I think the reason most people are not effected is that most GPS user
> are mobile and if they are near a jammer it is only for a few minutes
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:59 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > You could indeed deploy a few thousand gizmos and have a pretty
> significant impact. I'm not at all sure that would be the easier task ….
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS outage?

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Lisa,

Thanks for this update.  How many Resolution-T receivers are out there?

Not to go off on another tangent - but I have heard something about 'GPS
jamming during the America's Cup'.  Hmmm.

Regards,
John Westmoreland



On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Lisa Perdue  wrote:

> Trimble has confirmed to us that the nonstandard outage on PRN 4 (SVN 34)
> may have caused the Resolution-T receivers to perform a reset and then
> return to normal operation. They are investigating the cause but it does
> explain why only some people experienced the event. Other Trimble receivers
> and other manufacturers seem unaffected.
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Brian, WA1ZMS  wrote:
>
> > Guys-
> >
> > Please forgive me for the BW..
> >
> > My day-job mgmt. has also asked me today if I knew of any US regional GPS
> > "issues", as we too have had several reports of
> > our customers systems going into Rb hold-over on or about the 4th of
> Sept.
> > Only fact I can find is that SVN 4 was noted as
> > an issue via:
> http://adn.agi.com/SatelliteOutageCalendar/SOFCalendar.aspx
> > But that can't be the root cause.
> >
> > At work, I am now the "go-to-guy" for ANYTHING GPS related since I'm a
> > Time-Nut and we have customers who depend on
> > GPS timing for their  comm. systems;  and for reasons I cannot go into
> here
> > on this reflector.
> >
> > So like Brad.I too have anecdotal reports of issues.  The sky is not
> > falling, nor was it a serious issue.
> > However if anyone has info that they cannot share via the reflector, a
> > private reply would be much appreciated.
> > I am not looking for info that cannot be openly shared. But if anyone has
> > hint or clue, I would much appreciate it.
> >
> > BTWmy GPS receivers here in VA seemed to have had no issue. Go
> figure.
> >
> > -Brian, WA1ZMS
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> > Behalf Of Brad Dye
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 6:14 PM
> > To: Time Nuts
> > Subject: [time-nuts] GPS outage?
> >
> > Readers of my newsletter are reporting a strange interruption of their
> GPS
> > reception yesterday -- mainly in the northeastern US but also in SC. This
> > is
> > my first day on this mailing list -- for a while -- so I don't know if
> this
> > has been discussed or reported previously. Has anyone else noticed this?
> We
> > are trying to find out is there was some sort of system-wide issue or
> maybe
> > if it was local interference possibly caused by those GPS jammers that
> some
> > of the truckers have been using.
> >
> > By the way, my newsletter is mostly about Paging, and we use GPS/DOs to
> > keep
> > the paging transmitters (in simulcast mode) synchronized and on
> frequency.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Brad Dye, K9IQY
> > Editor, Wireless Messaging News
> > P.O. Box 266
> > Fairfield, IL  62837 USA
> > Telephone: 618-599-7869
> > Skype: braddye
> > http://www.braddye.com
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS outage?

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Fellow Time Nuts:

Is this a site to be trusted?:

http://adn.agi.com/SatelliteOutageCalendar/SOFCalendar.aspx

Regards,
John W.


On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 6:41 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Lisa,
>
> Thanks for this update.  How many Resolution-T receivers are out there?
>
> Not to go off on another tangent - but I have heard something about 'GPS
> jamming during the America's Cup'.  Hmmm.
>
> Regards,
> John Westmoreland
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Lisa Perdue  wrote:
>
>> Trimble has confirmed to us that the nonstandard outage on PRN 4 (SVN 34)
>> may have caused the Resolution-T receivers to perform a reset and then
>> return to normal operation. They are investigating the cause but it does
>> explain why only some people experienced the event. Other Trimble
>> receivers
>> and other manufacturers seem unaffected.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Brian, WA1ZMS  wrote:
>>
>> > Guys-
>> >
>> > Please forgive me for the BW..
>> >
>> > My day-job mgmt. has also asked me today if I knew of any US regional
>> GPS
>> > "issues", as we too have had several reports of
>> > our customers systems going into Rb hold-over on or about the 4th of
>> Sept.
>> > Only fact I can find is that SVN 4 was noted as
>> > an issue via:
>> http://adn.agi.com/SatelliteOutageCalendar/SOFCalendar.aspx
>> > But that can't be the root cause.
>> >
>> > At work, I am now the "go-to-guy" for ANYTHING GPS related since I'm a
>> > Time-Nut and we have customers who depend on
>> > GPS timing for their  comm. systems;  and for reasons I cannot go into
>> here
>> > on this reflector.
>> >
>> > So like Brad.I too have anecdotal reports of issues.  The sky is not
>> > falling, nor was it a serious issue.
>> > However if anyone has info that they cannot share via the reflector, a
>> > private reply would be much appreciated.
>> > I am not looking for info that cannot be openly shared. But if anyone
>> has
>> > hint or clue, I would much appreciate it.
>> >
>> > BTWmy GPS receivers here in VA seemed to have had no issue. Go
>> figure.
>> >
>> > -Brian, WA1ZMS
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
>> > Behalf Of Brad Dye
>> > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 6:14 PM
>> > To: Time Nuts
>> > Subject: [time-nuts] GPS outage?
>> >
>> > Readers of my newsletter are reporting a strange interruption of their
>> GPS
>> > reception yesterday -- mainly in the northeastern US but also in SC.
>> This
>> > is
>> > my first day on this mailing list -- for a while -- so I don't know if
>> this
>> > has been discussed or reported previously. Has anyone else noticed
>> this? We
>> > are trying to find out is there was some sort of system-wide issue or
>> maybe
>> > if it was local interference possibly caused by those GPS jammers that
>> some
>> > of the truckers have been using.
>> >
>> > By the way, my newsletter is mostly about Paging, and we use GPS/DOs to
>> > keep
>> > the paging transmitters (in simulcast mode) synchronized and on
>> frequency.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Brad Dye, K9IQY
>> > Editor, Wireless Messaging News
>> > P.O. Box 266
>> > Fairfield, IL  62837 USA
>> > Telephone: 618-599-7869
>> > Skype: braddye
>> > http://www.braddye.com
>> >
>> > ___
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> >
>> > ___
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> >
>> ___
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>> To unsubscribe, go to
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
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[time-nuts] Req: Decent GPS Antenna Active/Passive Recommendation

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Time Nuts,

I hope this isn't too off topic.

Can I please have some recommendations for a decent active or passive GPS
Antenna to add to the antenna farm that doesn't break the ole' piggy bank?

Thanks In Advance,
John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] Req: Decent GPS Antenna Active/Passive Recommendation

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello David,

Thanks for the pic!

Well, I need something that I can put outside, in the weather, with my
verticals, and other antennas.  I am a Ham radio enthusiast, and I want
something I can properly mount and can be an all-weather device and can
live happily 'in the farm' so to speak.

I should have been more specific.

Thanks Again,
John Westmoreland
AJ6BC - (that's my call sign)


On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 1:51 AM, David J Taylor <
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Hello Time Nuts,
>
> I hope this isn't too off topic.
>
> Can I please have some recommendations for a decent active or passive GPS
> Antenna to add to the antenna farm that doesn't break the ole' piggy bank?
>
> Thanks In Advance,
> John Westmoreland
> ==**
>
> How "decent" do you want, John?  Here's my GPS antenna farm:
>
>  
> http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/**2013-03-31-1226-32-GPS-**antenna-farm.jpg
>
> and I don't think any cost more than GBP 10.  Perhaps your requirements
> are more stringent than mine (I think all the PPS outputs from the
> connected receivers are within 0.1 microseconds).  I have a couple of
> "timing" antennas in the loft, but I can't see any difference between those
> and the magnetic pucks, for the precision level I need.
>
> Cheers,
> David
> --
> SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
> __**_
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Re: [time-nuts] Req: Decent GPS Antenna Active/PassiveRecommendation

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello David,

The polar orbiting APT antenna looks interesting.

Thanks again for the pics!  And - I know your call sign now too!

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 2:14 AM, David J Taylor <
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Hello David,
>
> Thanks for the pic!
>
> Well, I need something that I can put outside, in the weather, with my
> verticals, and other antennas.  I am a Ham radio enthusiast, and I want
> something I can properly mount and can be an all-weather device and can
> live happily 'in the farm' so to speak.
>
> I should have been more specific.
>
> Thanks Again,
> John Westmoreland
> AJ6BC - (that's my call sign)
> ==**=
>
>
> Thanks for the clarification, John.  I'm sure others will answer your
> question, but here I have not found the need for an outdoors GPS antenna,
> being located on the top floor of a two-storey building, in a good VHF
> location.  This with one exception - an older Garmin GPS 18 LVC, which had
> the sensitivity of decade-old devices, not the modern chips.  That just
> sits on the sloping roof, actually on the opposite side of the roof from
> these antennas:
>
>  
> http://www.satsignal.eu/wxsat/**atovs/pic_old-and-new.jpg
>
> from:
>  
> http://www.satsignal.eu/wxsat/**atovs/index.html
>
> 73,
> David GM8ARV
>
> --
> SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
> __**_
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Req: Decent GPS AntennaActive/Passive Recommendation

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for the feedback - I certainly have a lot to think about.

Seems eBay could be a preferred vendor for antennas.  I don't need anything
too fancy - but I would like something that does OK in wind and rain, I
don't have to worry too much about snow at my current location - and I do
have a mount point that will keep my cable length short - under 20 feet if
I do it properly.

Sounds like the '26dB' model will be fine.  Is there a preferred vendor
anyone wants to recommend?  A reseller on eBay may not fit that category.
 Please e-mail me directly if you don't feel comfortable providing what
could be construed as an opinion to a wide audience.

Please, continue this discussion.  It is quite interesting and I will try
not to interfere too much.  To say that I am a newbie or novice in the area
of GPS is an understatement.  I am finding what GPS satellites transmit
quite fascinating.

Thanks!
John Westmoreland
AJ6BC


On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 10:24 PM, David J Taylor <
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> From: Bob Camp
>
>
> Hi
>
> All of the ones I've opened up or seen dis-assembled have had the ceramic
> plate antennas in them. That very much surprised me early on, since I
> *assumed* they had something fancy inside based on their shape.
>
> No argument about the filtering, I'm not sure if the temp-co of filter
> delay on an exposed antenna makes it a plus or a minus….
>
> Bob
> ==**=
>
> .. and would the true time-nut add the delay through the filter to the
> delay in the feeder co-ax?  I suppose that means you could only buy an
> antenna with a stated, calibrated delay?  Limits the choice, a little!
>
> Cheers,
> David
>
> --
> SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
> __**_
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Re: [time-nuts] Req: Decent GPS AntennaActive/Passive Recommendation

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Everyone,

While we're on the subject - not to get too far off on a tangent - I have
been doing 'web-research' on this - but can someone recommend a great site
or reference for the specifications of the GPS signaling sent down by a GPS
satellite?  For instance, I learned that PPS for a military satellite and a
civilian satellite are not the same thing.  PPS meaning Precise Positioning
Service.

Thanks and 73's,
John
AJ6BC (Ham call sign)


On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> On Sep 16, 2013, at 9:48 AM, Jim Lux  wrote:
>
> > On 9/16/13 6:03 AM, David J Taylor wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I am thinking about exact time measurement - getting your PPS edge
> >> exactly on the nanosecond.  People can add in the length of the cable as
> >> an offset, so they must also need to enter any delay through any
> >> filters, mustn't they?
> >>
> >> Agreed that for position alone it doesn't matter as much.  It's the
> >> antenna's approximate position which will be measured.
> >>
> >> Your points about dispersion in the filter, and temperature coefficient
> >> of delay are good ones.
> >>
> >
> >
> > It's trying to get nice flat group delay in the filter that causes all
> the issues with Light Squared.  *small*, *inexpensive* brickwall bandpass
> filters tend not to have nice delay properties, or at least ones that are
> temperature stable.  Spectrum regulators know this, of course, and assign
> adjacent services accordingly.
> >
> >
> > If you're only worrying at the few nanosecond level, you probably don't
> have to take into account continental drift (periodic resurveys of location
> to account for several cm/year?) and solid earth tides (on the order of
> 30-50 cm).  And, really, for a lot of applications, you're interested in
> relative timing, so the solid earth tide shift of 1-2 ns every day isn't a
> big deal.
>
> Well maybe it is….
>
> If
>
> 1) Your antenna is ~ 2 ns out of position
> 2) you have a small number of sats
> 3) Everything else is doing very well
>
> Then as you take sat's in and out of the mix, you will could get 2 ns more
> "pop" than you would have otherwise.
>
> Bob
>
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Req: Decent GPS AntennaActive/Passive Recommendation

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Thanks Jim.

Best Regards,
John W.


On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:

> On 9/16/13 6:43 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>
>> Hello Everyone,
>>
>> While we're on the subject - not to get too far off on a tangent - I have
>> been doing 'web-research' on this - but can someone recommend a great site
>> or reference for the specifications of the GPS signaling sent down by a
>> GPS
>> satellite?  For instance, I learned that PPS for a military satellite and
>> a
>> civilian satellite are not the same thing.  PPS meaning Precise
>> Positioning
>> Service.
>>
>>
>>
> It's all defined in IS-GPS-200G, IS-GPS-800C, IS-GPS-705C, and IS-GPS-060B
>
> http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?**pageName=gpsReferenceInfo<http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=gpsReferenceInfo>
>
> Brought to you by your friends at Department of Homeland Security (see,
> not everything they do is horrible, TSA notwithstanding)...
>
> Semper Paratus...
>
>
> __**_
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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO vs Rb standard

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Azelio and Fellow Time Nuts,

Isn't the GPS 1PPS signal supposed to be 'precise' to within what error?  I
imagine this is in the specs of the specific receiver -
but I was wondering if some of you have actually measured what that is -
and could report the numbers that you have found.

Thanks!
John Westmoreland



On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 3:07 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

> Instead of using the Rb's PPS, use the GPS receiver's PPS. Maybe you
> will find out that the Rb is slow... you can also check the Rb's PPS
> against the GPS's PPS.
>
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 11:47 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> > I hooked the Rb's 1PPS to the trigger input on my old Tek 455, 10MHz
> > GPSDO to Channel A, .05us trace, and turned the lights out so I could
> > see it.  The 10MHz is marching right to left about 1 cycle every 20
> > seconds.  So, can I say that the Rb considers my GPSDO to be too fast by
> about 5ppb?
> >
> >
> > Bob
> > ___
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[time-nuts] JL LC_XO Performance

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

I just spoke with JL - I should have one of the Jackson Labs' LC_XO's in my
hands soon (TCXO option) - I was wondering if any of you have had a chance
to look at it - and what your opinion is
of the unit?  If you have taken any detailed measurements you would like to
share - that will be appreciated too.

Also - if you have also taken a look at their GPSTCXO (TXCO option too) -
how does it compare?

Thanks In Advance,
John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] JL LC_XO Performance

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

So, I take it no one has looked at these units yet?

Thanks,
John Westmoreland



On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 7:51 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I just spoke with JL - I should have one of the Jackson Labs' LC_XO's in
> my hands soon (TCXO option) - I was wondering if any of you have had a
> chance to look at it - and what your opinion is
> of the unit?  If you have taken any detailed measurements you would like
> to share - that will be appreciated too.
>
> Also - if you have also taken a look at their GPSTCXO (TXCO option too) -
> how does it compare?
>
> Thanks In Advance,
> John Westmoreland
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] JL LC_XO Performance

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Bob,

Oh yes - but he would want to refrain from comment I would think.

Regards,
John


On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> I'd bet that Said has seen a few of them …..
>
> Bob
>
> On Sep 20, 2013, at 6:37 PM, "John C. Westmoreland, P.E." <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > So, I take it no one has looked at these units yet?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John Westmoreland
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 7:51 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello All,
> >>
> >> I just spoke with JL - I should have one of the Jackson Labs' LC_XO's in
> >> my hands soon (TCXO option) - I was wondering if any of you have had a
> >> chance to look at it - and what your opinion is
> >> of the unit?  If you have taken any detailed measurements you would like
> >> to share - that will be appreciated too.
> >>
> >> Also - if you have also taken a look at their GPSTCXO (TXCO option too)
> -
> >> how does it compare?
> >>
> >> Thanks In Advance,
> >> John Westmoreland
> >>
> >>
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Leap second smear at Google

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Christopher,

Obviously GOOG needs a time-nut on their staff!

Interesting stuff!
John W.



On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Christopher Quarksnow  wrote:

> Besides the famous Android stint described in Google bug 5485
> https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=5485 that took 2 years
> to fix, so many Android phones system clocks were 15 seconds fast then, I
> just found the source of another discrepancy where Google spreads the leap
> second offset to avoid artifacts with servers, platforms, environments or
> programs unable to handle a sudden second leap :
>
> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/time-technology-and-leaping-seconds.html
>
> Maybe not as bad as Oracle in 2009 :
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/156453/article.html
>
> I don't know how "elegant" this solution from Google is, especially with
> Google Wallet time payments or transactions that could be back-dated in
> relation to a banking system, or other Google apps, but I thought it might
> be of interest to some before they need a house of clocks to keep in sync
> with Google on such days ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyRKQ84ztkE
>
> Christopher Quarksnow
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Re: [time-nuts] JL LC_XO Performance

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Said,

I did not know this was the case as outlined in the article:

Jackson Lab offers an extremely small (0.97″ x 0.97″), low-power (0.5 W)
GPSDO module called ‘LC_XO’
[4<http://www.jackson-labs.com/index.php/products/lc_xo>].
The LC_XO is available as TCXO or more stable OCXO version. *It is
electrically identical to the module populated on the eval board.*

Thanks,
John


On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 11:05 PM, Said Jackson  wrote:

> Thats correct, my opinion is obviously biased..
>
> Here is a third party review of the unit (the Eurocan GPSTCXO version of
> the same product).
>
>
> http://jaunty-electronics.com/blog/2012/10/review-jackson-labs-gpstcxo-eval-board/
>
> Hope that helps,
> Said
>
> On Sep 20, 2013, at 16:42, "John C. Westmoreland, P.E." <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Bob,
> >
> > Oh yes - but he would want to refrain from comment I would think.
> >
> > Regards,
> > John
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> I'd bet that Said has seen a few of them …..
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> On Sep 20, 2013, at 6:37 PM, "John C. Westmoreland, P.E." <
> >> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> So, I take it no one has looked at these units yet?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> John Westmoreland
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 7:51 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >>> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hello All,
> >>>>
> >>>> I just spoke with JL - I should have one of the Jackson Labs' LC_XO's
> in
> >>>> my hands soon (TCXO option) - I was wondering if any of you have had a
> >>>> chance to look at it - and what your opinion is
> >>>> of the unit?  If you have taken any detailed measurements you would
> like
> >>>> to share - that will be appreciated too.
> >>>>
> >>>> Also - if you have also taken a look at their GPSTCXO (TXCO option
> too)
> >> -
> >>>> how does it compare?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks In Advance,
> >>>> John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] Clock Driver Design

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Tom,

If you are building your own board - I have used this part:

SN74LVC1G125  - Single Bus Buffer Gate with 3-State Output

and it is suitable for the job.  I have measured the performance of the
logic family - and what I observed follows what is in the spec sheets from
TI.  I did not officially record
my measurements as I didn't do the testing on precision, calibrated
equipment.  But I did do all testing at 10MHz and I did also look at the
1PPS signal of course.

I have used other parts in this logic family from TI and have had good
results at these frequencies.

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Bob Bownes  wrote:

> TV video distribution amps work very nicely. Even better if you open them
> up and change the matching from 75ohm to 50. :)
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Glenn Little WB4UIV <
> glennmaill...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > Would an analog video distribution amplifier work?
> > These are available cheap.
> > TV stations used these eight or so in a frame.
> > The frame had a power supply and the BNC i/o connectors.
> > Each da would drive 6 or 8 outputs.
> >
> > 73
> > Glenn
> > WB4UIV
> > Retired TV CE.
> >
> >
> >
> > At 01:28 PM 9/26/2013, you wrote:
> >
> >> I am looking into various degrees of craziness.  The source is CMOS and
> >> there are plenty of 1 in to N out parts designed to drive clocks on a
> PCB
> >> but not much is said about driving clocks on to a random length of coax
> to
> >> another piece of equipment and what additional precautions that might
> >> warrant.  I am also considering making a sine wave output and maybe
> other
> >> frequencies.
> >> Tom
> >>
> >> On 9/26/2013 4:34 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >>> Standard high speed CMOS logic works pretty well. How crazy are you
> >>> trying to get?
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
> >>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 1:48 AM, Tom Minnis  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  I am working on a small clock distributor and wanted to get some ideas
>  on what works best for 10MHz and 1PPS driver circuits.  I remember
> sifting
>  through the archives a year or so ago and tripped on some discussion
> of
>  this but I can't find it anymore.
>  Tom
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Re: [time-nuts] Clock Driver Design

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Bob,

Totally agree.

24mA of drive at 3.3V is pretty nice in a small footprint for the parts we
are discussing.  Of course as you have pointed out you can drive them at 5V
too.

Mini-circuits is a good place to look too - especially for us hobbyists:

http://www.minicircuits.com/products/DesignerKits.shtml



73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> How clean is your clock source? If you have something that is -150 dbc at
> 1 Hz, then you probably need some fancy analog gizmos. If you can make do
> with "only" -110 to -120 dbc/Hz at 1 Hz, then properly driven LVC CMOS will
> do just fine. That's true for a square or a sine output. Since you pretty
> much can't find an OCXO better than -120 at 1 Hz, I'd bet you'll be ok. 5
> volt logic will be a little more quiet than 3.3V. More or less faster is
> quieter as long as you stay with saturated silicon CMOS. Change materials
> and all bets are off.
>
> For square wave cable drive you can parallel up a couple of the '125 or
> '126 gates to get how ever much power you want to put into the cable. You
> can source or load terminate (or both). If you source and load terminate,
> your logic levels will be 1/2 the output. With either source only or load
> only termination you can get full swing logic levels. More drive will
> always be required with load termination (you are putting current into 50
> ohms).
>
> Logic IC's are cheap, easy to use, and simple to find. A low voltage
> single supply drives them and they aren't current hogs unless heavily
> loaded. What's not to like?
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Sep 26, 2013, at 1:28 PM, Tom Minnis  wrote:
>
> > I am looking into various degrees of craziness.  The source is CMOS and
> there are plenty of 1 in to N out parts designed to drive clocks on a PCB
> but not much is said about driving clocks on to a random length of coax to
> another piece of equipment and what additional precautions that might
> warrant.  I am also considering making a sine wave output and maybe other
> frequencies.
> > Tom
> >
> > On 9/26/2013 4:34 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Standard high speed CMOS logic works pretty well. How crazy are you
> trying to get?
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> On Sep 26, 2013, at 1:48 AM, Tom Minnis  wrote:
> >>
> >>> I am working on a small clock distributor and wanted to get some ideas
> on what works best for 10MHz and 1PPS driver circuits.  I remember sifting
> through the archives a year or so ago and tripped on some discussion of
> this but I can't find it anymore.
> >>> Tom
> >>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Clock Driver Design

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Tom,

OK - one question for now if that is OK - your video amp - is it base-band
or broadband?

Regards,
John W,


On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 11:11 PM, Tom Minnis  wrote:

> Thanks for all your thoughts on the subject.  Let me play back what I have
> learned and how it may apply to my challenge.  One of my first applications
> is to use a 10MHz output to phaselock a VCXO master clock in a radio
> transceiver.  The VCXO is the Christek CVHD-950 which has a noise floor of
> -164dBc and is -86dBc at 10Hz.  The source I want to use is the Jackson
> Labs GPSTCXO which has a noise floor of -155dBc and is -73dBc at 1Hz and
> 103dBc at 10Hz.  i did a quick survey of the phase noise specs on various
> Jackson products that claim to be ultra low phase noise and found similar
> numbers.  One was -100dBc at 1Hz but only -145dBc at 100KHz.  Another was
> down -90dBc at 1Hz and -160dBc at 100KHz.  It would appear that even the
> best parts I could find quickly would not merit the fancy analog gizmo and
> that a good stiff logic buffer would work.  Next I went to IDT to find the
> best logic buffer I could find.  I am looking at the IDT 74FCT38072 2
> channel clock driver for PPS.  It can drive about 50mA if needed with 1nS
> rise and fall times.  The one I am looking at for 10MHz is the ICS553 4
> channel clock driver.  This one is good for 25mA drive and they actually
> give a typical output impedance spec of 20 Ohms.  With a 3.3V supply, it
> has 1nS rise and fall times and a little faster with a 5V supply, 0.7nS and
> 35mA drive.  To make a sine wave should I use one of the 4 ports on the 4
> port driver to input to the filter or should I try to hook the filter input
> directly to the clock driver input?
> Are there tried and true 10MHz filter circuits or is that a non issue?
>  After the filter would come the video amp set up for a 50 Ohm drive and
> into a splitter.  That sound simple enough.  What am I missing?
>
> Tom
>
>
> On 9/26/2013 3:05 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> How clean is your clock source? If you have something that is -150 dbc at
>> 1 Hz, then you probably need some fancy analog gizmos. If you can make do
>> with "only" -110 to -120 dbc/Hz at 1 Hz, then properly driven LVC CMOS will
>> do just fine. That's true for a square or a sine output. Since you pretty
>> much can't find an OCXO better than -120 at 1 Hz, I'd bet you'll be ok. 5
>> volt logic will be a little more quiet than 3.3V. More or less faster is
>> quieter as long as you stay with saturated silicon CMOS. Change materials
>> and all bets are off.
>>
>> For square wave cable drive you can parallel up a couple of the '125 or
>> '126 gates to get how ever much power you want to put into the cable. You
>> can source or load terminate (or both). If you source and load terminate,
>> your logic levels will be 1/2 the output. With either source only or load
>> only termination you can get full swing logic levels. More drive will
>> always be required with load termination (you are putting current into 50
>> ohms).
>>
>> Logic IC's are cheap, easy to use, and simple to find. A low voltage
>> single supply drives them and they aren't current hogs unless heavily
>> loaded. What's not to like?
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 1:28 PM, Tom Minnis  wrote:
>>
>>  I am looking into various degrees of craziness.  The source is CMOS and
>>> there are plenty of 1 in to N out parts designed to drive clocks on a PCB
>>> but not much is said about driving clocks on to a random length of coax to
>>> another piece of equipment and what additional precautions that might
>>> warrant.  I am also considering making a sine wave output and maybe other
>>> frequencies.
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> On 9/26/2013 4:34 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>
 Hi

 Standard high speed CMOS logic works pretty well. How crazy are you
 trying to get?

 Bob

 On Sep 26, 2013, at 1:48 AM, Tom Minnis  wrote:

  I am working on a small clock distributor and wanted to get some ideas
> on what works best for 10MHz and 1PPS driver circuits.  I remember sifting
> through the archives a year or so ago and tripped on some discussion of
> this but I can't find it anymore.
> Tom
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Re: [time-nuts] Clock Driver Design

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hal,

> SN74LVC1G125  - Single Bus Buffer Gate with 3-State Output

TI does all of their testing: f = 10MHz for the chip - that is in the
datasheet.

If you drive it too hard, expect it to drive too much capacitance, etc -
yeah - the voltage waveform will suffer.
But, using it within the spec - I think it is just fine.

Sounds like Tom is going a different route on this anyway - the parts he's
pointed out should be fine I think - my concern is the video amp at present
- if
it's for broadband it may not work.  If it's for base-band NTSC/PAL it may
not work.

Regards,
John




On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 1:04 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:

> > SN74LVC1G125  - Single Bus Buffer Gate with 3-State Output
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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO choices

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Paul,

I can speak for a few of us over in the OpenHPSDR group that are also
'time-nuts'  - We have the GPSTCXO eval kit that Said is speaking of and we
have been very satisfied.
It is a great fit for what we're doing.  We are working on a new board now
that is near completion that can either have the GPSTXCO module or the
LC_XO module - and if you want to use both at the same time I suppose you
can do that too if you're careful.  ;)  (The new board can be used in a
standalone mode or can be connected to the HPSDR backplane we call the
Atlas bus - a mini-VME like chassis connector.)

I did recently get an LC_XO unit as well and have looked at that with
GPSCon, my scope, etc. - performs (I think) identically to the GPSTCXO plus
a few other features.  I think some of the people in this group have plots
they can share with you.

Don't be fooled by the name of this group - the 'real experts' are here.
 Don't be bashful about asking them questions.  I am a neophyte in this
area but I am fascinated by what this group is about plus how the GPS birds
(satellites) work.

73's (Best Regards),
John Westmoreland
AJ6BC (Call sign)


On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:52 PM,  wrote:

> Paul,
>
> try the Jackson Labs GPSTCXO eval kit. Comes with GPS antenna, USB
> comm/power cable, and board.
>
> You can get a Hammond enclosure for it for less than $20, and have a
> complete desktop system for less than $400 new. Probably  the lowest-cost
> "new"
> way to go other than Ebay-used or  homemade.
>
> bye,
> Said
>
>
> In a message dated 10/3/2013 20:30:55 Pacific Daylight Time,
> tic-...@bodosom.net writes:
>
> I'm  looking for a new, ready to go, inexpensive" desktop GPSDO.  So
> far  I've only found the Fury and Thunderbolt E.
>
> Are there other reasonable  choices e.g. the J R Miller (although I'm
> not sure there's a source of  "new" TU-30 parts).
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Paul
>
> *Say <  $2k
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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO choices

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Paul,

I don't want to speak too soon or appear to be tooting the HPSDR horn - but
the Khronos board (Khronos is the name of the board that I mentioned in the
previous e-mail) has that.

I didn't realize the issue here was the BNC connector and your dislike of
the MMCX style connector that is pretty much a standard for passive GPS
antennas (I guess any GPS antenna).  The Khronos connector for the LC_XO
option for the antenna is a standard footprint and you can put what you
want on that.  What type of connector do you prefer for the GPS antenna?

Pasternack, Samtec, Mini-Circuits, Digi-Key are all your friends in these
situations - but if you prefer not to solder or to DIY, then it could be
difficult to find everything you like in one package unless you custom
order it or have a friend that can put it together for you.  I am a
customer of Metcal - I have a lot of their top-of-the-line equipment, so
soldering/rework to me is almost a way of life.

Best Regards,
John Westmoreland



On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Paul  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 2:52 PM,   wrote:
> > Paul,
> > try the Jackson Labs GPSTCXO eval kit.
>
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 5:59 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E.
>  wrote:
> >  We have the GPSTCXO eval kit that Said is speaking of and we
> > have been very satisfied.
>
> I have one.  It's nice but I want a 1PPS BNC too (without soldering)
> and no more tiny antenna connectors.
>
> --
> Paul
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Re: [time-nuts] Detecting GPS and other jammers

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Bob,

I think what you have pointed out is interesting - I have even given it
more than a passing thought on how to design what is on the CellBusted site.

I am working on a design of my own on how to detect low-power RF signals
using a wide-band method of detection.

73's,
John Westmoreland
AJ6BC



On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Bob Burchett EE <
bob.burch...@eeontheweb.com> wrote:

> We make & sell the jammer detectors as a part of our contraband cell phone
> detector products. The jammers are so common now flooding in that we have a
> stealth GPS tracker so that drivers of company trucks that have radios in
> them aren't aware of the fact that they are being monitored BUT if they
> find
> out we also sell the detectors. They aren't expensive either.
> www.CellBusted.com
>
>
> Robert L. "Bob" Burchett WB6SLC
> Certified Communications Engineer
> Enterprise Electronics
> 22826 Mariposa Ave.
> Torrance CA 90502
> Direct line: 310.534.4456
> FAX: 310.534.1233
> Website: www.EEonTheWeb.com
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO choices

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Paul,

OK - that is good information.  I have mature vision too - got these
bifocal contact lenses that take some getting adjusted to.

But I am blind without my Pro's Kit MA-016 head-gear which has become a
required piece of equipment when I work these days.

Best Regards,
John



On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Paul  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 8:01 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E.
>  wrote:
> > I didn't realize the issue here was the BNC connector and your dislike of
> > the MMCX style connector that is pretty much a standard for passive GPS
> > antennas (I guess any GPS antenna).
>
> SMA is fine, likewise F, N or even SMB.
> I don't like MCX, MMCX, FME, uFL or similar because I have mature vision.
>
> By count my most common GPS antenna connector is SMA followed by N.
> The GPS receivers are a richer mix.
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Re: [time-nuts] 3-D GPS antenna?

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Peter,

I took a look at the article - interesting and thanks for posting the link.

Regards,
John Westmoreland


On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Peter Gottlieb  wrote:

> http://www.technologyreview.**com/news/519811/a-cure-for-**
> urban-gps-a-3-d-antenna/
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[time-nuts] Trimble Mini-T

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello,

I was talking to a distributor here in San Jose and they told me the
Trimble Mini-T is no longer available.

Does anyone on this list know why Trimble decided to stop making it?  The
distributor doesn't know.

Thanks,
John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS time module

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Thanks for the comparison Said.  I am glad I have an LC_XO.  ;)

Regards,
John Westmoreland



On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 4:35 PM,  wrote:

> Sorry in advance guys,
>
> I could not resist doing a short comparison between our LC_XO module and
> this new Selig/RF-Suisse 1x1 module. Please excuse this blatantly biased
> comparison:
>
> The Selig module is slightly larger, and consumes about the same amount of
> power as the LC_XO (TCXO version), and basically provides a similar set of
> signals. It is however about twice as expensive, has an 8-week lead-time
> versus  from-stock delivery, and there are other differences:
>
> * 20 channel GPS without WAAS/SBAS (Selig) versus 50 channels with
> WAAS/SBAS (LC_XO)
>
> * 1us time pulse accuracy (Selig) versus +/-25ns time pulse accuracy typ.
> (LC_XO)
>
> * Washing not approved (Selig) versus washing approved (LC_XO)
>
> * Selig requires an antenna cable to be plugged into the bottom of the PCB,
>  then the module is soldered onto a customer PCB. Thus if the antenna cable
>  becomes loose, it cannot be plugged back into the connector. LC_XO:
> antenna feed  via the solder pins from carrier PCB
>
> * Selig I/O: Status LED and requirement to program for an I2C slave
> register, no NMEA or control command interface for GPSCon, GPSD, or Z38xx
>  etc
> versus LC_XO: two NMEA outputs (RAW NMEA and Binary from uBlox GPS), JLT
>  NMEA
> commands with custom commands, and SCPI control interface for third-party
> software
>
> * Selig 60,000 feet altitude limit versus 164,000 feet for LC_XO
>
> * Power requirement: Selig: 5V versus LC_XO 3.3V (LC_XO will provide 5V
> from internal DC switcher that can be used externally on carrier PCB)
>
> * Phase Noise: about the same between both units
>
> * ADEV: Selig slightly better at around 20s, LC_XO better above 1000s
> (LC_XO short-term ADEV can be significantly improved in stable
> environments by
> setting the time-constant of the loop to longer time frames)
>
> * Selig module options: GPS or no GPS versus LC_XO module options: TCXO,
> OCXO, and external 1PPS input with auto-switchover to internal GPS
>  receiver
>
> * Firmware updates: Selig does not provide customer update mechanism versus
>  LC_XO can be easily updated with various firmware versions available for
> customer download from the website without any website log-in etc.
>
> * Selig TCXO stability: +/-100ppb from -20C to +70C versus +/-75ppb from 0C
>  to 60C or +/-25ppb from 0C to +60C (OCXO version)
>
> Selig/RF-Suisse offering this form factor is a welcome event as it
> validates the form factor in itself.
>
> I am however not seeing too many advantages for the Selig part in
> comparison especially at about twice the cost, am I missing something?
>
> bye,
> Said
>
>
> In a message dated 10/29/2013 14:54:51 Pacific Daylight Time,
> lstosk...@cox.net writes:
>
> Sorry if  already  posted:
>
> http://www.saelig.com/COMCR/COMCR002.htm
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Mini-T

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Bob,

Guess that is a shame - looked like a nice product and didn't take up a lot
of space either.  I was just curious.

Thanks,
John



On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> I believe they were not making enough of them to make it worth continuing
> production.
>
> Bob
>
> On Oct 29, 2013, at 7:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I was talking to a distributor here in San Jose and they told me the
> > Trimble Mini-T is no longer available.
> >
> > Does anyone on this list know why Trimble decided to stop making it?  The
> > distributor doesn't know.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John Westmoreland
> > ___
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[time-nuts] Anyone Know What The Models Were In This NIST Paper?

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello,

Does anyone know what Models A, B, C, and D were in this paper?  Or maybe
had a good idea?

http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=50196

Thanks!
John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Mini-T

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Said,

Actually - I was not aware of that.  Thanks for pointing this out.

Looks like a great unit - and more features.

Thanks!
John Westmoreland


On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 6:14 PM,  wrote:

> John,
>
> have you taken a look at the Mini-JLT?
>
> Its compatible, just supports SCPI/NMEA instead of TSIP.
>
> bye,
> Said
>
>
> In a message dated 10/29/2013 17:14:22 Pacific Daylight Time,
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com writes:
>
> Hello  Bob,
>
> Guess that is a shame - looked like a nice product and didn't take  up a
> lot
> of space either.  I was just  curious.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 4:55  PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > I  believe they were not making enough of them to make it worth
> continuing
> > production.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > On Oct 29,  2013, at 7:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >  j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >
> > >  Hello,
> > >
> > > I was talking to a distributor here in San  Jose and they told me the
> > > Trimble Mini-T is no longer  available.
> > >
> > > Does anyone on this list know why Trimble  decided to stop making it?
> The
> > > distributor doesn't  know.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > John Westmoreland
> >  > ___
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> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> >  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone Know What The Models Were In This NIST Paper?

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Bob,

Yes - well, it is a little dated - so I would think the chance for a
competitive edge would have expired.  Maybe not for models C and D but I
would certainly think so for Models A & B.

There must be some sort of technical statute of limitations, correct?  ;)


Regards,
John Westmoreland



On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> That’s always one of those “we can only tell you if you work for the US
> government” sort of things. If anybody knows it’s one of those “you better
> not tell” things.
>
> Bob
>
> On Oct 29, 2013, at 8:40 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Does anyone know what Models A, B, C, and D were in this paper?  Or maybe
> > had a good idea?
> >
> > http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=50196
> >
> > Thanks!
> > John Westmoreland
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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[time-nuts] Surface Mount OCXO Questions

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello,

I was wondering if I could get some recommendations on surface mount OCXO's
vs. the traditional through hole.

I was also wondering on the board layout - if you found it necessary to
leave a thermal moat so to speak - and what worked best.  Maybe the OCXO
has an internal air barrier that maybe would make this unnecessary - not
sure.

Your input and experience appreciated.

Thanks,
John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] Surface Mount OCXO Questions

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Graham and Time Nuts,

(thanks for the answers.)

I have another question - I am looking at a part from MTI.  I wanted to use
one of their 3.3V parts.  They are telling me to use the 12V part because
the 3.3V part can have an issue with ground loops due to the higher current
requirements at that voltage for the oven.

Have any of you experienced this?  Makes me wonder a little why they offer
the 3.3V part.  It would seem good layout can control any possibility of
ground loops becoming a problem.

Thanks and Regards,
John W./AJ6BC




On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:54 AM, Graham / KE9H wrote:

> John:
>
> All SMT OCXO's will either have a recommended PCB footprint in the spec
> sheet
> or will refer you to a recommended footprint in another document.
>
> Some don't care about a ground plane under the part, some require it
> with no crossing signals, some require an open thermal hole underneath
> the oven.  I have seen all three cases.  As usual, it is suggested that you
> read the [] manual.
>
> Best regards,
> --- Graham / KE9H
>
> ==
>
>
>
> On 10/29/2013 9:18 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I was wondering if I could get some recommendations on surface mount
>> OCXO's
>> vs. the traditional through hole.
>>
>> I was also wondering on the board layout - if you found it necessary to
>> leave a thermal moat so to speak - and what worked best.  Maybe the OCXO
>> has an internal air barrier that maybe would make this unnecessary - not
>> sure.
>>
>> Your input and experience appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> John Westmoreland
>> __**_
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>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Surface Mount OCXO Questions

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Bob,

OK - that makes sense.  If you follow good analog/digital layout rules then
this may not be a problem.  But your point about the EFC sensitivity is
well taken.
But, that is always a problem.

Yes, do a lot of people violate good analog/digital layout rules,
especially on the ground planes - yep.  This is exactly why I am asking
these questions.

Even in manufacturer's recommended layout instructions you can find
mistakes.  Unless you have a dev board that you have used and have the
gerbers from
that board so you know exactly how that part behaves with that layout - you
cannot know for sure you have a sound layout for your design.  You also
have
to be careful with board material, dielectrics, and copper weight, not to
mention controlled impedances.

Remember the early days of DC/DC converters?

Thanks!
John / AJ6BC



On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 5:52 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Consider that microvolts matter on the EFC. Unless you have a separate
> return for the oven current it’s going to be tough to keep everything
> separate. One might  ask “why no separate return”. Well when you design one
> in, and then go look at people’s layouts - you might as well not have
> designed it in …..
>
> Bob
>
> On Oct 30, 2013, at 8:37 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Graham and Time Nuts,
> >
> > (thanks for the answers.)
> >
> > I have another question - I am looking at a part from MTI.  I wanted to
> use
> > one of their 3.3V parts.  They are telling me to use the 12V part because
> > the 3.3V part can have an issue with ground loops due to the higher
> current
> > requirements at that voltage for the oven.
> >
> > Have any of you experienced this?  Makes me wonder a little why they
> offer
> > the 3.3V part.  It would seem good layout can control any possibility of
> > ground loops becoming a problem.
> >
> > Thanks and Regards,
> > John W./AJ6BC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:54 AM, Graham / KE9H  >wrote:
> >
> >> John:
> >>
> >> All SMT OCXO's will either have a recommended PCB footprint in the spec
> >> sheet
> >> or will refer you to a recommended footprint in another document.
> >>
> >> Some don't care about a ground plane under the part, some require it
> >> with no crossing signals, some require an open thermal hole underneath
> >> the oven.  I have seen all three cases.  As usual, it is suggested that
> you
> >> read the [] manual.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> --- Graham / KE9H
> >>
> >> ==
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/29/2013 9:18 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> I was wondering if I could get some recommendations on surface mount
> >>> OCXO's
> >>> vs. the traditional through hole.
> >>>
> >>> I was also wondering on the board layout - if you found it necessary to
> >>> leave a thermal moat so to speak - and what worked best.  Maybe the
> OCXO
> >>> has an internal air barrier that maybe would make this unnecessary -
> not
> >>> sure.
> >>>
> >>> Your input and experience appreciated.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> John Westmoreland
> >>> __**_
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> >>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts<
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> __**_
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> >>
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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO choices

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Dave,

I have an LC_XO and a GPSDO, both from Jackson Labs.  There are more than
just a few of us also that are a part of the OpenHPSDR effort that have
evaluated the units (GPSDO) for over 1 year now (I have a project that is a
bit overdue...but that is another story...)

But, I haven't seen one single negative comment from anyone regarding these
units.  For the money - it is a good/great deal.  I just bread-boarded the
LC_XO I have for a test and it worked fine.  I have one of those connector
kits from Samtec and one of those breakout kits from FTDI, plus power
supply - and that was it to get a nice evaluation going.  I am working on a
PCB this unit fits into - it is near completion - but that is for the HPSDR
project.  It will run standalone and on batteries.  But, the board is
'feature-rich' and goes beyond just something to have the LC_XO on.

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:11 PM, quartz55  wrote:

> Is this JL LC_XO at around $300 going to supress the used
> Trimble/Zwhatever market price?  I hope so. I think I would have put out
> the $ for this one rather than a 10 or more year old used piece of
> equipment.  I still may do it.  I just need to justify it somehow.
>
> Dave
> N3DT
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Re: [time-nuts] Surface Mount OCXO Questions

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Graham,

Good points - yes, I have this part currently in the design: TPS75833KTTT
(LDO from TI) - putting another one down
(just) for the OCXO isn't a problem.

And a nice 12V rail isn't a problem either since this is for a radio with a
nice 12V source.  Could I boost the 3.3V rail to
12V or maybe 5V to 12V - sure - but your point about the switcher is well
taken and I agree.  Having a nice, fat, analog
ground plane isn't a problem either.

And, this is just a 'dev' board so we can do what we need to make the OCXO
work as good as possible.

>From their spec sheet:  '... the supply voltage sensitivity and load
sensitivity is 5E-11 for a 5 % change in voltage or
load impedance.'

Thanks,
John



On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote:

> John:
>
> Look at the ppm (or however they express it) as to the sensitivity of the
> frequency stability of the OCXO relative to Voltage input.
>
> Say the oven power drops from 3 watts to 1 Watt as the oven comes up
> to temperature.  At 3 Volts, relative to 12 Volts, for a given resistance,
> it is four time the Voltage change due to the higher currents, and an
> additional
> four times the percentage of the operating Voltage as a ratio.  So
> additional
> design consideration for Voltage control/stabilization is needed.
>
> If you have a solid (wide, thick, multi-layer) ground, then that can
> work.  To reduce the voltage drop feeding the OCXO, you might consider
> putting a dedicated LDO regulator, right at the OCXO, that shares the
> ground
> reference with the OCXO, so any voltage drop in the feed side is removed,
> as well as any Voltage variability with current in the ground system.
>
> As to why they are selling the 3.3V part, they probably started selling it
> before they had some customers get into performance issues per the above.
> But once offered, they have to continue to support their customers.
>
> I think they are just telling you that it is somewhere between 4 and 16
> times
> easier to get the full performance out of the part with a 12 Volt power
> feed
> than a 3 Volt power feed, not that you can't get full performance with a
> 3.3V feed.
>
> I am sure their parts meet specs, you just need to understand them.
>
> P.S. - I would stick with linear regulators feeding the OCXO, not a
> switcher.
>
> --- Graham
>
> ==
>
>
> On 10/30/2013 7:37 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>
>> Graham and Time Nuts,
>>
>> (thanks for the answers.)
>>
>> I have another question - I am looking at a part from MTI.  I wanted to
>> use
>> one of their 3.3V parts.  They are telling me to use the 12V part because
>> the 3.3V part can have an issue with ground loops due to the higher
>> current
>> requirements at that voltage for the oven.
>>
>> Have any of you experienced this?  Makes me wonder a little why they offer
>> the 3.3V part.  It would seem good layout can control any possibility of
>> ground loops becoming a problem.
>>
>> Thanks and Regards,
>> John W./AJ6BC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:54 AM, Graham / KE9H > >wrote:
>>
>>  John:
>>>
>>> All SMT OCXO's will either have a recommended PCB footprint in the spec
>>> sheet
>>> or will refer you to a recommended footprint in another document.
>>>
>>> Some don't care about a ground plane under the part, some require it
>>> with no crossing signals, some require an open thermal hole underneath
>>> the oven.  I have seen all three cases.  As usual, it is suggested that
>>> you
>>> read the [] manual.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> --- Graham / KE9H
>>>
>>> ==
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/29/2013 9:18 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering if I could get some recommendations on surface mount
>>>> OCXO's
>>>> vs. the traditional through hole.
>>>>
>>>> I was also wondering on the board layout - if you found it necessary to
>>>> leave a thermal moat so to speak - and what worked best.  Maybe the OCXO
>>>> has an internal air barrier that maybe would make this unnecessary - not
>>>> sure.
>>>>
>>>> Your input and experience appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> John Westmoreland
>>>>
>>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Surface Mount OCXO Questions

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Bob,

These are good suggestions.  I will probably end up doing 1) and 2) you
have outlined above.

Thanks!
John W.



On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Robert LaJeunesse <
rlajeune...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> A couple tricks I've learned along the way: 1) If using a switching supply
> is required to get a higher voltage, follow it with a good LDO to reduce
> the noise level. I've done this successfully for powering handheld radio
> microphones with built-in amplification, video amplifiers, and for
> operating a GPS receiver and antenna. 2) If there is a possible ground
> current path problem, break the ground path by using a unity gain
> "difference" amplifier like the AD8276, or a difference amplifier with gain
> like the INA145. The input is differential to the source signal, and the
> output has a moderately high impedance reference terminal that can be tied
> directly to the load device ground pin. I use this technique all the time
> to keep down the noise when driving remote analog loads that have large
> ground currents themselves. (Picture a 110W 40MHz transmitter running off
> 12V, at the bottom of a stack of other transceivers in the trunk of a
> police car - with 40A of
>  lights flashing, etc.)
>
> Bob LaJeunesse
>
>
> >
> > From: "John C. Westmoreland, P.E." 
> >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> >Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:54 PM
> >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Surface Mount OCXO Questions
> >
> >
> >Graham,
> >
> >Good points - yes, I have this part currently in the design: TPS75833KTTT
> >(LDO from TI) - putting another one down
> >(just) for the OCXO isn't a problem.
> >
> >And a nice 12V rail isn't a problem either since this is for a radio with
> a
> >nice 12V source.  Could I boost the 3.3V rail to
> >12V or maybe 5V to 12V - sure - but your point about the switcher is well
> >taken and I agree.  Having a nice, fat, analog
> >ground plane isn't a problem either.
> >
> >And, this is just a 'dev' board so we can do what we need to make the OCXO
> >work as good as possible.
> >
> >From their spec sheet:  '... the supply voltage sensitivity and load
> >sensitivity is 5E-11 for a 5 % change in voltage or
> >load impedance.'
> >
> >Thanks,
> >John
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] video of CSAC GPSDO

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Said,

How much do the CSAC's run?

Thanks,
John Westmoreland



On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 5:14 PM,  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> fyi KF5OBS did a  nice video review of the CSAC GPSDO (and Lecroy high end
> scope) that's posted on  Youtube now:
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CogN630jUSs&feature=c4-overview&list=UU_XdpUc
> sSigyf4JrrPtI5eA
>
> bye,
> Said
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Re: [time-nuts] video of CSAC GPSDO

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Said,

Yes - Ha!  In the video, KF5OBS does say something like the price of a new
car.  I have a very wide variance for what that could be - a Scion xB,
Viper, Rolls Royce Bentley..., Ha!

Great video - and thanks for letting us know about it.  I actually went to
the NIST chip scale site the other day - very interesting stuff.  And, I am
glad you guys are taking on such
a technically ambitious project.  It would appear Symmetricon is a great
company to work with.

Best Regards,
John W.


On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 6:06 PM, Said Jackson  wrote:

> John,
>
> Too much to post here publicly :)
>
> About one tenth of the price of the next higher available Cesium reference
> though, and not much more than some used decades-old functional FTS Cesiums
> selling on Ebay. Please call the office for quotes on CSAC units.
>
> Thanks,
> Said
>
> On Nov 4, 2013, at 17:27, "John C. Westmoreland, P.E." <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Said,
> >
> > How much do the CSAC's run?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John Westmoreland
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 5:14 PM,  wrote:
> >
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> fyi KF5OBS did a  nice video review of the CSAC GPSDO (and Lecroy high
> end
> >> scope) that's posted on  Youtube now:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CogN630jUSs&feature=c4-overview&list=UU_XdpUc
> >> sSigyf4JrrPtI5eA
> >>
> >> bye,
> >> Said
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt tuning DAC theory of operation

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Stu,

I read this basically when it was posted.

I would like to thank you for posting this.  The theory on how to
discipline an OXCO is something that I want to learn more about - and posts
like this help with that
a lot.

So, thank you Stu - much appreciated!

Best Regards,
John Westmoreland


On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 1:41 AM, Stewart Cobb  wrote:

> While poking around the Thunderbolt to determine whether -5V could be
> used in  place of -12V, I discovered how the OCXO tuning DAC works.
> Apologies if this is old news, but I haven't seen it documented
> before.
>
> The 10MHz sine wave from the OCXO  is squared up and used to clock the
> Xilinx 5200 CPLD (U22) and a 74AC174 hex D flip-flop (U14).  Inside
> the CPLD (apparently) the 10 MHz clock is divided by 1024, giving a
> square wave with a period of 102.4 us (about 9.7 kHz).  The duty cycle
> of that square wave is modulated by the 10 MSBs of the commanded DAC
> value.  The LSBs are used to offset the falling edge of the square
> wave one clock cycle (100 ns) later, during a fraction of the 9.7 kHz
> square waves proportional to the LSBs value.  On a modern digital
> scope, you can zoom in on the falling edge of the square wave, set the
> display to "average", and see that the averaged height of that clock
> cycle is proportional to the DAC LSBs.  There appear to be at least 8
> LSBs, perhaps as many as 10, giving a total DAC resolution of 18 to 20
> bits.  (If the DAC value is averaged over one second, there are 10^7
> clock cycles which can be controlled, giving a theoretical maximum
> resolution of 23+ bits.  Trimble may have chosen a shorter averaging
> time and fewer bits.)
>
> The PWM square wave travels from pin 13 of the CPLD (U22) to pin 4,
> the D1 input of the 74AC174 (U14).  The flip-flops in this chip are
> also clocked by the squared-up 10 MHz from the OCXO.  The Q1 output,
> pin 5 of U14, goes to one side of R83 in the circuitry around the
> LT1014 op-amp.  The other five inputs and outputs of U14 are
> constantly high or low.  They may also be fed to the op-amp circuits,
> to help it handle the square wave in a purely ratiometric manner.
>
> The inputs and outputs of the Xilinx CPLD can be programmed for many
> different I/O standards.  Unfortunately, this makes their output pin
> drivers far from ideal.  The purpose of the 74AC174 is presumably to
> drive the analog circuitry with a input that is as close as possible
> to a mathematically ideal digital signal.  Outputs in the 74AC logic
> family can source or sink 24 mA and have relatively balanced raise and
> fall times.  This was probably the most ideal digital output available
> to the Thunderbolt's designers in the late '90s.
>
> This DAC implementation is guaranteed monotonic, an important
> consideration.  There is exactly one rising edge and one falling edge
> per cycle, so that any difference between rise and fall times will
> have a constant effect which can be tuned out.  Unlike a sigma-delta
> DAC, this PWM DAC produces strong spectral lines at multiples of the
> 9.7 kHz square wave frequency.  On the one hand, it is comparatively
> easy to design filters to remove a single frequency (and its
> harmonics).  On the other hand, this signal is strong enough that it
> may appear in phase noise plots anyway.
>
> If you want to view the 9.7 kHz square wave for yourself, it appears
> on a small square test point next to the silkscreen designator for
> C78, very close to the 6-pin power input jack.  This test point is
> part of the connection from the Xilinx CPLD to the hex D flip-flop.
> Probing it does not affect the OCXO tuning.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Cheers!
> --Stu
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Re: [time-nuts] video of CSAC GPSDO

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Said,

Really - meaning - I knew something was up over at Symmetricon but I didn't
know what you just told us.

Hmmm, I hope the transition goes smoothly and you are able to keep making
progress with the folks at Microsemi.

Best Regards,
John Westmoreland



On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 6:51 PM,  wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> well, I think he must have meant a new car back in 1971 :) That would be
> about right. It's not quite THAT expensive.
>
> Symmetricom seized to exist as an independent company a couple of days ago,
>  they were bought out by MicroSemi..
>
> They do make great products, for sure. Please note that I do not think that
>  the NIST CSAC effort had much to do with the commercialized Symmetricom
> product.  Same funding, but competing groups I think. NIST never took it to
> commercial  grade.
>
> bye,
> Said
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/4/2013 18:20:24 Pacific Standard Time,
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com writes:
>
> Said,
>
> Yes - Ha!  In the video, KF5OBS does say  something like the price of a new
> car.  I have a very wide variance  for what that could be - a Scion xB,
> Viper, Rolls Royce Bentley...,  Ha!
>
> Great video - and thanks for letting us know about it.  I  actually went to
> the NIST chip scale site the other day - very interesting  stuff.  And, I
> am
> glad you guys are taking on such
> a technically  ambitious project.  It would appear Symmetricon is a great
> company to  work with.
>
> Best Regards,
> John W.
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at  6:06 PM, Said Jackson  wrote:
>
> >  John,
> >
> > Too much to post here publicly :)
> >
> > About  one tenth of the price of the next higher available Cesium
> reference
> >  though, and not much more than some used decades-old functional FTS
> Cesiums
> > selling on Ebay. Please call the office for quotes on CSAC  units.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Said
> >
> > On Nov 4, 2013, at  17:27, "John C. Westmoreland, P.E." <
> >  j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Said,
> >  >
> > > How much do the CSAC's run?
> > >
> > >  Thanks,
> > > John Westmoreland
> > >
> > >
> >  >
> > > On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 5:14 PM,   wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hello,
> > >>
> > >>  fyi KF5OBS did a  nice video review of the CSAC GPSDO (and Lecroy
> high
> > end
> > >> scope) that's posted on  Youtube  now:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CogN630jUSs&feature=c4-overview&list=UU_XdpUc
> >  >> sSigyf4JrrPtI5eA
> > >>
> > >> bye,
> >  >> Said
> > >>  ___
> > >> time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > >> To unsubscribe, go  to
> > >>  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > >> and  follow the instructions there.
> > >  ___
> > > time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> >  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and  follow the instructions there.
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
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> > and follow the  instructions  there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble 34310-T EFC Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Bob,

If you think you are getting any high frequency into the EFC control - it
may be worth putting a(nother) low-pass filter in there.  Are you measuring
noise on that line?

Do you have a snap-shot of a schematic?  Or, can you take a picture of that
circuit?  I would hazard a guess you don't want to change the op-amp in
such a way the gain is too high - the circuit could be designed for unity
gain.  A different choice in resistors could still yield unity gain and
maybe knock down the noise a bit.

I would need to put an ammeter in the circuit to determine if there was any
meaningful current flow - without injecting noise of course... ;)

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:

> I think I may need to change the LPF feeding the EFC in my GPSDO to get
> rid of dithering jitter.  Is there any point in adding a resistor and cap
> in the EFC line, or do I need to go back and change the values in the
> op-amp circuit feeding it?  Currently an op-amp directly feeds the EFC
> pin.  I guess this boils down to something like: is there any meaningful
> current flow in EFC circuit in this oscillator?  Or should I add them but
> will I probably have to change the existing filter, as well?
>
> Bob - AE6RV
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[time-nuts] Off Topic Sortof: Board Rework Stations

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

I was wondering if anyone on this list has used the T862++ rework stations
on the PCB's you work on -

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=t862%2B%2B&rh=n%3A228013%2Ck%3At862%2B%2B

Are these as good as advertised?

Thanks In Advance,
John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] Off Topic Sortof: Board Rework Stations

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Graham,

Thanks - good info.  On eBay you can get these for ~$250.00 - depending on
whether it is the T-862 or T-862++.

So I guess that is a pretty good buy.

Best Regards,
John
AJ6BC


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote:

> John:
>
> We have one at work.  It basically works as represented.
>
> It takes some skill to run, and takes some time to develop the
> safe settings for soldering different sized items.  It puts out a
> tremendous
> amount of infrared heat, and you can melt things if you are not careful.
> For instance, it will melt plastic connectors close to the part being
> reworked.
>
> You want to use it in a well ventilated area.  It heats the board to be
> reworked
> from the underside to close to solder temperature, then uses infrared
> from the top side to push the temperature for the part in question
> above solder melting temp., and sometimes things close by.
>
> The underside heater is covered with silicon rubber, and gives off strong
> odor when hot.  Hot PCB boards give off strong odors, and of course, you
> are melting solder and flux.  So, good ventilation is highly recommended.
>
> You will need to practice on a few scrap boards before you try to solder
> something valuable.  In the hands of a skilled operator, it does beautiful
> work.
>
> --- Graham
>
> ==
>
>
> On 11/13/2013 9:00 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone on this list has used the T862++ rework stations
>> on the PCB's you work on -
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%
>> 3Dtools&field-keywords=t862%2B%2B&rh=n%3A228013%2Ck%3At862%2B%2B
>>
>> Are these as good as advertised?
>>
>> Thanks In Advance,
>> John Westmoreland
>> ___
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>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Off Topic Sortof: Board Rework Stations

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Bob,

Yes - you definitely need the appropriate lens - here is a seller that has
everything listed:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INFRARED-T862-SMT-SMD-REWORK-STATION-SOLDERING-WELDER-IRDA-BGA-MACHINE-/200949973718?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec98d42d6

I opted to get this though:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-T962A-INFRARED-IC-HEATER-REFLOW-OVEN-300X320MM-BGA-SMD-300x320mm-/200942081431?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec914d597


I may still pick up one of the T-862++'s though.

Regards,
John


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> If you look at the eBay listings they mention in some of them that what
> they are selling is “without lenses”. My impression was that you needed to
> focus the IR (like with a lens) to really get it to work well. I did not
> dig far enough to sort that part out.
>
> Bob
>
> On Nov 14, 2013, at 6:41 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Graham,
> >
> > Thanks - good info.  On eBay you can get these for ~$250.00 - depending
> on
> > whether it is the T-862 or T-862++.
> >
> > So I guess that is a pretty good buy.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Graham / KE9H  >wrote:
> >
> >> John:
> >>
> >> We have one at work.  It basically works as represented.
> >>
> >> It takes some skill to run, and takes some time to develop the
> >> safe settings for soldering different sized items.  It puts out a
> >> tremendous
> >> amount of infrared heat, and you can melt things if you are not careful.
> >> For instance, it will melt plastic connectors close to the part being
> >> reworked.
> >>
> >> You want to use it in a well ventilated area.  It heats the board to be
> >> reworked
> >> from the underside to close to solder temperature, then uses infrared
> >> from the top side to push the temperature for the part in question
> >> above solder melting temp., and sometimes things close by.
> >>
> >> The underside heater is covered with silicon rubber, and gives off
> strong
> >> odor when hot.  Hot PCB boards give off strong odors, and of course, you
> >> are melting solder and flux.  So, good ventilation is highly
> recommended.
> >>
> >> You will need to practice on a few scrap boards before you try to solder
> >> something valuable.  In the hands of a skilled operator, it does
> beautiful
> >> work.
> >>
> >> --- Graham
> >>
> >> ==
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/13/2013 9:00 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello All,
> >>>
> >>> I was wondering if anyone on this list has used the T862++ rework
> stations
> >>> on the PCB's you work on -
> >>>
> >>> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%
> >>> 3Dtools&field-keywords=t862%2B%2B&rh=n%3A228013%2Ck%3At862%2B%2B
> >>>
> >>> Are these as good as advertised?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks In Advance,
> >>> John Westmoreland
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> >>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
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Re: [time-nuts] Off Topic Sortof: Board Rework Stations

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Thomas,

You can say that again.  Maybe this can help start a renaissance of sorts
of garage started companies again in this country.

To be able to rework BGA's for ~$200 - that is great.

Regards,
John W.


On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Tom Knox  wrote:

> It is amazing how affordable these rework stations have become. Ten years
> ago a station like these would cost you thousands of dollars.
>
> Thomas Knox
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 23:57:49 -0500
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > From: glennmaill...@bellsouth.net
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Off Topic Sortof: Board Rework Stations
> >
> > This is the station that I bought.
> > It is not as sophisticated, but,not as much either.
> >
> >
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/11632887?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
> >
> > 73
> > Glenn
> > WB4UIV
> >
> >
> >
> > At 09:45 PM 11/14/2013, you wrote:
> > >Bob,
> > >
> > >Yes - you definitely need the appropriate lens - here is a seller that
> has
> > >everything listed:
> > >
> > >
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/INFRARED-T862-SMT-SMD-REWORK-STATION-SOLDERING-WELDER-IRDA-BGA-MACHINE-/200949973718?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec98d42d6
> > >
> > >I opted to get this though:
> > >
> > >
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-T962A-INFRARED-IC-HEATER-REFLOW-OVEN-300X320MM-BGA-SMD-300x320mm-/200942081431?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec914d597
> > >
> > >
> > >I may still pick up one of the T-862++'s though.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >John
> > >
> > >
> > >On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > If you look at the eBay listings they mention in some of them that
> what
> > > > they are selling is "without lenses". My impression was that you
> needed to
> > > > focus the IR (like with a lens) to really get it to work well. I did
> not
> > > > dig far enough to sort that part out.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 14, 2013, at 6:41 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > > > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Graham,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks - good info.  On eBay you can get these for ~$250.00 -
> depending
> > > > on
> > > > > whether it is the T-862 or T-862++.
> > > > >
> > > > > So I guess that is a pretty good buy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > John
> > > > > AJ6BC
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Graham / KE9H <
> time...@austin.rr.com
> > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> John:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> We have one at work.  It basically works as represented.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It takes some skill to run, and takes some time to develop the
> > > > >> safe settings for soldering different sized items.  It puts out a
> > > > >> tremendous
> > > > >> amount of infrared heat, and you can melt things if you are not
> careful.
> > > > >> For instance, it will melt plastic connectors close to the part
> being
> > > > >> reworked.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> You want to use it in a well ventilated area.  It heats the board
> to be
> > > > >> reworked
> > > > >> from the underside to close to solder temperature, then uses
> infrared
> > > > >> from the top side to push the temperature for the part in question
> > > > >> above solder melting temp., and sometimes things close by.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The underside heater is covered with silicon rubber, and gives off
> > > > strong
> > > > >> odor when hot.  Hot PCB boards give off strong odors, and of
> course, you
> > > > >> are melting solder and flux.  So, good ventilation is highly
> > > > recommended.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> You will need to practice on a few scrap boards before you try to
> solder
> > > > >> something valuable.  In the hands of a skilled operator, it does
> > > > beautiful
> > > > >> work.
> > > >

Re: [time-nuts] national nc2001 atomic clock on eBay

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

I do like the name "Atomichron NC 2001" -  pretty cool name for something
made in 1954.

I agree - before I would buy it I would have to see some shots of the
innards.  I think the seller did himself a misservice by not putting it in
a more orderly location before posting that picture.

Regards,
John



On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:

> On 17 November 2013 20:19, Don Latham  wrote:
> > Ridiculous price for the condition.
> > I do have kin in mnpls who could pick it up, but...
> > Don
>
> It may well be incomplete too. It is quite possible someone has raided
> it for parts.
>
> Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] Future of Time splinter meeting atAmericanAstronomical Society

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

I read some of the material.  Some of it makes it sound that the proposal
is so earth-shattering and mind-bending that no mere mortal
can understand what it means.

So, are they talking about basing it off of a physical phenomena, like one
of the atomic clocks at NIST or something like that?

As Bill above mentions - the notion of day and night still mean something
to us earthlings, and even the clocks at NIST should have
some type of heavenly body to help with occasional synchronization, correct?

I didn't take it as being against leap-seconds either - but maybe I have
missed the point or one of the points.

One would think irregardless of the method chosen, the occasional
correction will be necessary.

One has to admit though - that it is interesting.  Even in Star Trek
stardates were tied to days - which still means tied to a heavenly body.
 Hmmm.

Regards,
John W.








On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Bill Hawkins  wrote:

> The proposal is that UTC no longer be tied to the rotation of the Earth.
>
> If UTC is decoupled from leap seconds, presumably to make things easier
> for some activist group, then the rest of us will have to go back to
> GMT.
>
> We inhabit the Earth, not some computer simulation.
>
> Bill Hawkins
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Max Robinson
> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2013 4:54 PM
>
> I wonder if they are just going to let it drift or keep it in some kind
> of
> sync so sunrise won't eventually occur at 1 AM local clock time.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Daniel Schultz" 
> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2013 5:46 AM
>
>
> I received this notice on the Solar Eclipse mailing list. I am
> re-posting it
> here since it seems to be a subject of interest to members of the
> time-nuts
> list, at least those who live close to Washington, DC or are willing to
> travel.
>
> Dan Schultz N8FGV
>
> 
> *
>
> Future of Time at DC AAS meeting
>
> The announcement for a AAS splinter meeting on the leap second / UTC
> issue
> is appended. We welcome the participation of members of the solar
> eclipse
> community who will be attending the AAS meeting or who may be located
> near
> Washington, DC. AAS registration is not required to participate. Please
> forward the announcement to anybody you think might be interested in the
> future of solar time.
>
> Rob Seaman
> NOAO
> --
>
>
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[time-nuts] Austron

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Time-Nuts!

I hope everyone is enjoying their Holiday Season!

I have a question - I have been doing a little research lately on the
company that used to be in Austin, TX - Austron - they seemed to have filed
quite a few patents in areas of interest to our group.

Here's one just as an example:
https://www.google.com/patents/US5220333?pg=PA1&dq=assignee:++austron&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tdq8UoL_EqbQ2wXy14DwCA&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA

Are there any former Austron people on this list?  If so, I would like to
have a brief phone conversation with you if that is OK.  Just general
questions - nothing personal of course.

E-Mail could work but could be quicker just to have a brief phone call.  I
have Skype also if that
is easier.

Thanks and Happy Holidays!
John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] Austron

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Thomas,

Yes - I was aware of that.  And there is another company in there too I
think - EndRun Technologies.  Someone from that company told me about
Austron.

I am hoping someone on this list was employed by or worked for Austron.

Thanks,
John Westmoreland


On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Tom Knox  wrote:

> Austron was purchased by Datum which was then purchased by Symmetricom,
> which was recently sold to Microsemi.
>
> Thomas Knox
>
>
>
> > From: j...@westmorelandengineering.com
> > Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 17:42:21 -0800
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Austron
> >
> > Hello Time-Nuts!
> >
> > I hope everyone is enjoying their Holiday Season!
> >
> > I have a question - I have been doing a little research lately on the
> > company that used to be in Austin, TX - Austron - they seemed to have
> filed
> > quite a few patents in areas of interest to our group.
> >
> > Here's one just as an example:
> >
> https://www.google.com/patents/US5220333?pg=PA1&dq=assignee:++austron&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tdq8UoL_EqbQ2wXy14DwCA&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA
> >
> > Are there any former Austron people on this list?  If so, I would like to
> > have a brief phone conversation with you if that is OK.  Just general
> > questions - nothing personal of course.
> >
> > E-Mail could work but could be quicker just to have a brief phone call.
>  I
> > have Skype also if that
> > is easier.
> >
> > Thanks and Happy Holidays!
> > John Westmoreland
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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[time-nuts] REQ: Manuals and Schematics for the Austron 2110

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

Does someone in the group have the manuals and schematics for the Austron
2110 -
microprocessor controlled disciplined frequency standard?

A lot of the Austron manuals are on the 'net - but I cannot find the one
for the 2110 (yet).

Thanks In Advance!
John W.
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Re: [time-nuts] REQ: Manuals and Schematics for the Austron 2110

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Harald,

Appreciate this very much.  I hope to return the favor some day.

Happy Holidays and 73's,
John W.
AJ6BC



On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 12:12 AM, Harald Hauglin wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have a manual for the 2110 at work, including several fold-out
> schematics as I recall.
> I will have time to scan it in a couple of days.
>
> Christmas  greetings from Norway!
>
> - Harald
>
> P.S. I have been a long time lurker on the time-nuts list, but I believe
> this is my first useful contribution :-)
>
> -Opprinnelig melding-
> Fra: John C. Westmoreland, P.E. [mailto:j...@westmorelandengineering.com]
> Sendt: 29. desember 2013 04:01
> Til: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Emne: [time-nuts] REQ: Manuals and Schematics for the Austron 2110
>
> Hello All,
>
> Does someone in the group have the manuals and schematics for the Austron
> 2110 -
> microprocessor controlled disciplined frequency standard?
>
> A lot of the Austron manuals are on the 'net - but I cannot find the one
> for the 2110 (yet).
>
> Thanks In Advance!
> John W.
>
>
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[time-nuts] REQ: Manuals and Schematics for the Austron 2010B

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello time-nuts,

Another request -
does someone in the group have the manuals and schematics for the Austron
2010B -
disciplined frequency standard?

Thanks and Happy New Year!
John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] From Burt - K6OQK...

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Burt,

Yes - we also wish good health and much contentment in the New Year to you
as well and to our fellow time-nuts!


73's and 88's as they apply!,
John & Audrey
AJ6BC



On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:

> Gang,
>
> Best wishes to all for good health and much contentment in the New Year.
>
> Burt & Margaret
>
> Burt I. Weiner Associates
> Broadcast Technical Services
> Glendale, California  U.S.A.
> b...@att.net
> www.biwa.cc
> K6OQK
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] 'CPLDs for clock dividers' Thread

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

I was looking at the archives - what was the outcome of this:

Thanks to everyone for their advice.  I bought a CoolRunner II
development board (only $39!) and will let you know how it goes.

Matt

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Matt Ettus https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>> wrote:
>* Does anyone have any experience using CPLDs for very low phase noise
*>* dividers?  You can get an XC9536XL from Xilinx for around $1, and I
*>* thought it would make a good divide by 2 through 10 device.
*>>* Matt*

A lot of the discussion focused on the difficulties of downloading the tools for
Altera or Xilinx - the Max II family from Altera was recommended - but there was
no apparent outcome or resolution to this thread - seemingly.

Does anyone have that CPLD recommendation?

Thanks,
John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] 'CPLDs for clock dividers' Thread

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Tom,

Thanks for replying.  I will be interested to see what you end up with for
jitter, phase noise, and propagation delay; to name a few.  Looks like an
interesting part from the datasheet.

Thanks,
John W.


On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 8:29 PM, Tom Minnis  wrote:

> I am working on a PLL design that uses the Lattice MX02-256 for the
> dividers and XOR phase detector.  I have not made any measurements on it
> yet but will report back when it happens.
>
>
> On 1/5/2014 7:37 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>
>> I was looking at the archives - what was the outcome of this:
>>>
>> What level of nuttiness are you interested in?
>>
>> CPLDs or FPGAs are neat because you can toss all sorts of stuff into them.
>> If you do that, you introduce opportunities for power supply level noise
>> coupling.
>>
>> If you have something simple like a divide by 2 or divide by 10 with no
>> other
>> logic in the chip, I'd expect the output to be clean.  If you want to do a
>> divide by 2 AND 10, I'll bet you will see some coupling.  (at least if you
>> look hard enough)
>>
>> Fine print:
>>One buzzword to look for is SSO - Simultaneous Switching Output.  The
>> basic
>> idea is that there is slight inductance/resistance in the power/ground
>> connections and on chip power/ground distribution.  If 2 signals switch at
>> the same time, they share that and will be slightly slower than only one
>> signal switching.
>>
>>You will probably get better results if your output PIN is next to
>> pwr/gnd
>> pins.  (lower on-chip resistance)
>>
>>You may be able to help things by setting up nearby pins as outputs and
>> wiring those pins to pwr/gnd and driving them with the appropriate logic
>> level.  The idea is to add semi-pwr pins.  The resitance through the
>> driver
>> transistors is small enough so that it helps.
>>   It would be fun to measure some of that stuff.
>>
>>
>>
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[time-nuts] sand9 TCMO

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

I thought this may be of interest to the group - a start-up company - Sand9
- has developed a temperature controlled MEMS oscillator (TCMO):

http://www.sand9.com/product/tcmo/ .

Best Regards,
John Westmoreland
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[time-nuts] Fwd: REQ: Manuals and Schematics for the Austron 2110

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Time Nuts,

I hope everyone doesn't mind - I did get a few responses to this - but
still no manuals have made it my way.

I just wanted to resend in case someone does have them -and- I am able to
arrange getting my hands on them in a timely fashion.

Thanks and Best Regards,
John Westmoreland

-- Forwarded message --
From: John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
Date: Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 7:00 PM
Subject: REQ: Manuals and Schematics for the Austron 2110
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 


Hello All,

Does someone in the group have the manuals and schematics for the Austron
2110 -
microprocessor controlled disciplined frequency standard?

A lot of the Austron manuals are on the 'net - but I cannot find the one
for the 2110 (yet).

Thanks In Advance!
John W.
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Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: REQ: Manuals and Schematics for the Austron 2110

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Max,

Thanks for your reply.  I have sent you an e-mail off list.

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Max  wrote:

> On 23/01/2014 1:28 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>
>> Hello Time Nuts,
>>
>> I hope everyone doesn't mind - I did get a few responses to this - but
>> still no manuals have made it my way.
>>
>> I just wanted to resend in case someone does have them -and- I am able to
>> arrange getting my hands on them in a timely fashion.
>>
>> Thanks and Best Regards,
>> John Westmoreland
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
>> Date: Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 7:00 PM
>> Subject: REQ: Manuals and Schematics for the Austron 2110
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
>> time-nuts@febo.com
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> Does someone in the group have the manuals and schematics for the Austron
>> 2110 -
>> microprocessor controlled disciplined frequency standard?
>>
>> A lot of the Austron manuals are on the 'net - but I cannot find the one
>> for the 2110 (yet).
>>
>> Thanks In Advance!
>> John W.
>> ___
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>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> Hi  to all and John W.
> I  have the manual for the Austron 2010B, but its not micro controlled.
> Lots of TTL and boards.
>
> Regards
>
> Max
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] high (spacial) precision GPS in Kickstarter

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Daniel,

Appears that is precision for position - not necessarily time.  I think
NIST had a write-up on something very similar.

Regards,
John Westmoreland


On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Daniel Mendes  wrote:

>
> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/swiftnav/piksi-the-rtk-gps-receiver
>
> Has anyone seen this? Any time-nuts utility?
>
> Daniel
>
>
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[time-nuts] ECL Discussion: The On Semi MC100LVEL34 (/2/4/8 Prescaler/Divider)

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello,

I was wondering how many of you have experience with this ECL part from On
Semi:
MC100LVEL34 ?

The url is:  http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=MC100LVEL34

I did search the archive - via Google - last discussion I saw was the new
clock distribution
part from Linear regarding ECL in this group.

Specs on the MC100LVEL34 look nice; prop delay is good (< 1 ns), jitter (<
1 ps), and On
Semi told me phase noise is expected to be -150dBc/Hz.  ON also mentioned
to me that
they will start including phase noise figures with these parts soon (ECL).

I was looking at the Peregine 3513 also - looks like a good part too; so do
the ones from
Hittite (GaAs).  Peregrine does have a paper discussing Normalized Phase
Noise in UltraCMOS
Devices, but I don't see that speced for the PE3513.

The Hittite HMC434/434E does spec Phase Noise at:
Ultra Low SSB Phase Noise: -150 dBc/Hz

Another ECL part that looks like it would make a nice RF switch is the:
 MC100EP58.

Thanks and Regards,
John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] MC100LVEL34

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello John,

Did you happen to do any phase noise measurements?

Thanks,
John W.



On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 10:07 PM, John Pease  wrote:

>
>
> > I was wondering how many of you have experience with this
> > ECL part from On
> > Semi:
>  >MC100LVEL34 ?
>
>  John,
>
> I use this part quite a bit. Great for 100 MHz distribution in out cold
> atom systems. Also used it with good luck in dividing the output of a 320
> MHz VCSO in a cavity lock servo.
>
> You can get about 5 dBm out of PECL after the transformer and LPF!!
>
> Cheers,
>
> John Pease
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Re: [time-nuts] MC100LVEL34

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello John M.,

Thanks for the plot.  Did you take that out past 1MHz - I assume it stayS
'flat' - maybe not.

What explains that little spike at 10kHz for the AD9511?  Interesting
artifact.

Thanks,
John W.


On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 12:44 AM, John Miles  wrote:

> (Different John here)  Some quick and dirty residual PN measurements made
> on
> the 100EL family versus some newer clock distribution chips from Analog
> Devices:
> http://www.ke5fx.com/100EL_vs_AD.png
>
> These may not be directly applicable to 100LVEL parts and shouldn't be
> taken
> as gospel in any case, because real-world results are dependent on signal
> levels and power supply contributions.  But the overall trend of lower 1/f
> noise than CMOS with similar broadband floors will probably hold for all of
> the current-generation "fast ECL" parts.  More data would be good to have.
>
> -- john, KE5FX
> Miles Design LLC
>
> > Hello John,
> >
> > Did you happen to do any phase noise measurements?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John W.
>
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