Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Grounding/Lightning protection.

[Scott McGrath]

Also see this

https://www.bicsi.org/uploadedfiles/bicsi_conferences/fall/2012/presentations/CONCSES_4C.pdf

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

On Jun 18, 2018, at 5:51 PM, Charles Steinmetz  wrote:

Graham wrote:

> If you want to protect your installation from lightening, then there is a
> body of information that has been developed within the cellular industry
> that allows a properly installed cellular base site to take a direct hit
> and continue operating.
> 
> An example of what they do is documented in "Motorola R56 2005 manual.pdf"
> 
> Google that term to download the document.

Oz and Bill also provided good information.

PolyPhaser is the generally-accepted gold standard for lightning protection, 
and has many technical notes available.

Tisha Hayes has a big fat folder full of good stuff relating to "Grounding 
Surge and Filtering" at her dropbox site, and another one full of "Transient 
Protection Documents."  See:



Best regards,

Charles



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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Grounding/Lightning protection.

[Glenn Little WB4UIV]

Unless all of your ground rods are bonded together, you are inviting 
disaster.


If you have two ground systems, one at the tower and the other at the 
house, you have a very dangerous situation.


If you have a unified (bonded) ground system and take a lightning strike 
every thing elevates to to same level, be it 10 Volts or 100 KV.
There is no difference in potential between equipments and everything is 
happy.
If there are two ground systems, they will not elevate to the same level 
at the same rate.
In this case, you have differences in potential between equipments and 
damage.



MIL-HDBL-419 is a very good grounding reference and is available for 
free download.


To do the grounding correctly, all connections exterior to the building 
are to be welded.

The cable to ground rod welds are to be 18 inches below grade.
The exterior cable is to be number 2 copper or larger.
To bond numerous ground systems together, a number 2 copper cable is to 
be buried at 18 inches and welded to each ground system.
If using eight foot ground rods, a ground rod is to be driven every 16 
feet along the connecting cable and the cable welded to the rod.


I did lightning mitigation for seven years for a tower site monitoring 
company.
When these steps were followed, lightning damage was very minimal or 
non-existent.


You stated that the GPS antenna was on a tower.
To correctly install an antenna on a tower the feedline is to be bonded 
to the tower near the base of the antenna.
The feedline is again bonded to the tower where to leaves the tower 
heading for the building.
Prior to entering the building, the feedline is bonded to a copper plate 
called a ground window.

This ground window is bonded to the ground system.
The feedline goes through a surge suppressor the is bonded to the ground 
window prior to entering the building.


All equipment in the building should be bonded to a ground buss made of 
number 6 copper and bonded to the ground window.


A lot of work, but, cheaper, in the long run, than continuing to 
repair/replace equipment.


73
Glenn
WB4UIV




On 6/18/2018 2:29 PM, Dan Kemppainen wrote:

Hi,

I have (or had, I guess) a GPS antenna on a tower that took a 
lightning hit yesterday.


You can tell it's going to be a bad day when you walk into your shop, 
and smell burnt electronics. Still have to troubleshoot exactly what 
got hit, but the GPSDO was flashing no GPS signal, the 5V supply for 
the antenna to the GPS splitter was dead, the data logging computer 
had rebooted and the data logging computer monitor was dead. Other 
network hardware was dead also.


This is a bit surprising since the tower itself is grounded with 4 
ground rods and bonded to a 150 foot deep well casing near by. The 
antenna is on the end of 250 ft run of RG6. The GPS antenna cable 
shield has a grounding block bonded to two ground rods driven down 
below the basement foundation where it enters the house. I'm guessing 
the surge ran the coax into the splitter, then through everything 
connected to it, despite the grounding block.


So, I'm wondering if there are better surge protectors for lightning 
protection? Maybe something that actually protect the center conductor 
also? Hopefully something that will pass GPS signal reasonably and let 
DC power through. If so, can you recommend some starting points? Other 
suggestions also welcome.



Also, If you are considering upgrading your own lightning protection, 
hopefully this will be some inspiration to get started. As I said 
earlier, it's a bad day when you smell burnt electronics in the shop.


Thanks,
Dan

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--
---
Glenn LittleARRL Technical Specialist   QCWA  LM 28417
Amateur Callsign:  WB4UIVwb4...@arrl.netAMSAT LM 2178
QTH:  Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx)  USSVI LM   NRA LM   SBE ARRL TAPR
"It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
of the Amateur that holds the license"

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Grounding/Lightning protection.

[Charles Steinmetz]

Graham wrote:


If you want to protect your installation from lightening, then there is a
body of information that has been developed within the cellular industry
that allows a properly installed cellular base site to take a direct hit
and continue operating.

An example of what they do is documented in "Motorola R56 2005 manual.pdf"

Google that term to download the document.


Oz and Bill also provided good information.

PolyPhaser is the generally-accepted gold standard for lightning 
protection, and has many technical notes available.


Tisha Hayes has a big fat folder full of good stuff relating to 
"Grounding Surge and Filtering" at her dropbox site, and another one 
full of "Transient Protection Documents."  See:




Best regards,

Charles



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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Grounding/Lightning protection.

[Oz-in-DFW]

Not sure I have much to specific offer, other than some observations.

 1. A path to ground is only a small part of the story.  What's really
important is the ground reference of all equipment to all other
equipment. The huge currents and substantial risetimes can cause
large voltage spikes across even large conductors (>8 AWG.) You want
everything to stay at the same voltage reference, and you'd really
like to keep that close enough to ground to prevent arcs from that
equipment to ground and other equipment.
 2. Long wire runs of even large gauge wire are inductors and can be of
little value during an event.
 3. No matter what you do, it's unlikely you can do anything within
economical reason to survive a direct strike and the 10's to 100's
of kiloamps involved. The real question is how close of a near miss
can you survive.
 4. Most of the non-telecom smoking fails I've seen have been power line
transients. If you took a direct tower hit it's more likely than not
that your RG-6 would now be plating on a tower leg. An old tower can
be a pretty poor ground for the microseconds (or sometimes
milliseconds when you consider return strokes) it takes the
corrosion in the leg joints to flashover and fuse, or resistance
heat and weld.
 5. The large currents of a direct strike have predictable but less than
obvious physical effects like conductor shortening (if they don't
fuse,) and other significant forces caused by magnetic attraction of
conductors. One failure case I saw years ago collapsed the conduit
around a ground conductor. Made no sense until we discovered that
the conduit was the actual ground path. I'll see if I can find the
pictures.
 6. Even near misses can induce huge currents (kiloamps) on their own,
particularly in long vertical cable runs.  I've seen solder joints
in small empty copper water pipes melt and reflow from a strike a
100 feet away.
 7. The best coax lightning suppression units I have seen are
essentially 1/4 wave grounded stubs. These are common is cell site
installations (and the top /AND/ bottom of the lines.) These are
always at DC ground and the coax is a the weak point (and ultimately
the fuse.)  I've seen them surplus and at hamfests and some cover
GPS freqs.
 8. A near strike will induce some really impressive voltages on
Ethernet cable runs. Most residential buildings are
electromagnetically transparent and the protection on most Ethernet
interfaces is oriented toward ESD.

Oz (in DFW)

On 6/18/2018 1:29 PM, Dan Kemppainen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have (or had, I guess) a GPS antenna on a tower that took a
> lightning hit yesterday.
>
> You can tell it's going to be a bad day when you walk into your shop,
> and smell burnt electronics. Still have to troubleshoot exactly what
> got hit, but the GPSDO was flashing no GPS signal, the 5V supply for
> the antenna to the GPS splitter was dead, the data logging computer
> had rebooted and the data logging computer monitor was dead. Other
> network hardware was dead also.
>
> This is a bit surprising since the tower itself is grounded with 4
> ground rods and bonded to a 150 foot deep well casing near by. The
> antenna is on the end of 250 ft run of RG6. The GPS antenna cable
> shield has a grounding block bonded to two ground rods driven down
> below the basement foundation where it enters the house. I'm guessing
> the surge ran the coax into the splitter, then through everything
> connected to it, despite the grounding block.
>
> So, I'm wondering if there are better surge protectors for lightning
> protection? Maybe something that actually protect the center conductor
> also? Hopefully something that will pass GPS signal reasonably and let
> DC power through. If so, can you recommend some starting points? Other
> suggestions also welcome.
>
>
> Also, If you are considering upgrading your own lightning protection,
> hopefully this will be some inspiration to get started. As I said
> earlier, it's a bad day when you smell burnt electronics in the shop.
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
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> and follow the instructions there.


-- 
mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167 
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 



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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Grounding/Lightning protection.

[Graham / KE9H]

If you want to protect your installation from lightening, then there is a
body of information that has been developed within the cellular industry
that allows a properly installed cellular base site to take a direct hit
and continue operating.

An example of what they do is documented in "Motorola R56 2005 manual.pdf"

Google that term to download the document.

It is likely more than most individuals are willing to take on, but you can
see the approach.

In addition to good grounding and common Voltage points, it also involves
making sure that there is not a Voltage differential across the equipment
that you want to protect, during the event.

There is an old folk saying that "Lightning never strikes twice."
Why?
Because it doesn't have to.


--- Graham

==



On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 1:39 PM Chris Smith 
wrote:

> I have purchased and deployed Huber+Suhner lightning protectors
> <
> https://www.hubersuhner.com/en/products/radio-frequency/lightning-emp-protectors/gas-discharge-tube-gdt-protectors
> >
> in the past but have thankfully never suffered an actual strike, so I can't
> say how well they work under duress.
>
> I've heard it said that basically nothing can protect you from a direct
> hit, but again, I haven't had the opportunity to test that theory that you
> so recently suffered.
>
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Dan Kemppainen 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have (or had, I guess) a GPS antenna on a tower that took a lightning
> > hit yesterday.
> >
> > You can tell it's going to be a bad day when you walk into your shop, and
> > smell burnt electronics. Still have to troubleshoot exactly what got hit,
> > but the GPSDO was flashing no GPS signal, the 5V supply for the antenna
> to
> > the GPS splitter was dead, the data logging computer had rebooted and the
> > data logging computer monitor was dead. Other network hardware was dead
> > also.
> >
> > This is a bit surprising since the tower itself is grounded with 4 ground
> > rods and bonded to a 150 foot deep well casing near by. The antenna is on
> > the end of 250 ft run of RG6. The GPS antenna cable shield has a
> grounding
> > block bonded to two ground rods driven down below the basement foundation
> > where it enters the house. I'm guessing the surge ran the coax into the
> > splitter, then through everything connected to it, despite the grounding
> > block.
> >
> > So, I'm wondering if there are better surge protectors for lightning
> > protection? Maybe something that actually protect the center conductor
> > also? Hopefully something that will pass GPS signal reasonably and let DC
> > power through. If so, can you recommend some starting points? Other
> > suggestions also welcome.
> >
> >
> > Also, If you are considering upgrading your own lightning protection,
> > hopefully this will be some inspiration to get started. As I said
> earlier,
> > it's a bad day when you smell burnt electronics in the shop.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Dan
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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> > /mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Grounding/Lightning protection.

[Chris Smith]

I have purchased and deployed Huber+Suhner lightning protectors

in the past but have thankfully never suffered an actual strike, so I can't
say how well they work under duress.

I've heard it said that basically nothing can protect you from a direct
hit, but again, I haven't had the opportunity to test that theory that you
so recently suffered.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Dan Kemppainen 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have (or had, I guess) a GPS antenna on a tower that took a lightning
> hit yesterday.
>
> You can tell it's going to be a bad day when you walk into your shop, and
> smell burnt electronics. Still have to troubleshoot exactly what got hit,
> but the GPSDO was flashing no GPS signal, the 5V supply for the antenna to
> the GPS splitter was dead, the data logging computer had rebooted and the
> data logging computer monitor was dead. Other network hardware was dead
> also.
>
> This is a bit surprising since the tower itself is grounded with 4 ground
> rods and bonded to a 150 foot deep well casing near by. The antenna is on
> the end of 250 ft run of RG6. The GPS antenna cable shield has a grounding
> block bonded to two ground rods driven down below the basement foundation
> where it enters the house. I'm guessing the surge ran the coax into the
> splitter, then through everything connected to it, despite the grounding
> block.
>
> So, I'm wondering if there are better surge protectors for lightning
> protection? Maybe something that actually protect the center conductor
> also? Hopefully something that will pass GPS signal reasonably and let DC
> power through. If so, can you recommend some starting points? Other
> suggestions also welcome.
>
>
> Also, If you are considering upgrading your own lightning protection,
> hopefully this will be some inspiration to get started. As I said earlier,
> it's a bad day when you smell burnt electronics in the shop.
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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> /mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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[time-nuts] GPS Antenna Grounding/Lightning protection.

[Dan Kemppainen]

Hi,

I have (or had, I guess) a GPS antenna on a tower that took a lightning 
hit yesterday.


You can tell it's going to be a bad day when you walk into your shop, 
and smell burnt electronics. Still have to troubleshoot exactly what got 
hit, but the GPSDO was flashing no GPS signal, the 5V supply for the 
antenna to the GPS splitter was dead, the data logging computer had 
rebooted and the data logging computer monitor was dead. Other network 
hardware was dead also.


This is a bit surprising since the tower itself is grounded with 4 
ground rods and bonded to a 150 foot deep well casing near by. The 
antenna is on the end of 250 ft run of RG6. The GPS antenna cable shield 
has a grounding block bonded to two ground rods driven down below the 
basement foundation where it enters the house. I'm guessing the surge 
ran the coax into the splitter, then through everything connected to it, 
despite the grounding block.


So, I'm wondering if there are better surge protectors for lightning 
protection? Maybe something that actually protect the center conductor 
also? Hopefully something that will pass GPS signal reasonably and let 
DC power through. If so, can you recommend some starting points? Other 
suggestions also welcome.



Also, If you are considering upgrading your own lightning protection, 
hopefully this will be some inspiration to get started. As I said 
earlier, it's a bad day when you smell burnt electronics in the shop.


Thanks,
Dan

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Re: [time-nuts] Affordable PoE 6-digit time displays?

[Mike Feher]

Thank you both for the education. - Mike 

Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115


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Re: [time-nuts] Affordable PoE 6-digit time displays?

[Adrian Godwin]

Takes advantage of the isolated, balanced-mode twisted-pair ethernet wiring
standard to send power - like phantom power to a professional microphone.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 5:36 PM, Bob Bownes  wrote:

> Power over Ethernet. 48V shipped down the ethernet wires. Generally used to
> power IP telephones, but WiFi Access points and other technologies have
> jumped on the bandwagon as well.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 12:25 PM, Mike Feher  wrote:
>
> > Hi all -
> >
> > Sorry for an ignorant question from an old man, but what does PoE stand
> > for? Thanks & Regards - Mike
> >
> > Mike B. Feher, N4FS
> > 89 Arnold Blvd.
> > Howell NJ 07731
> > 848-245-9115
> >
> > ___
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> > bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Affordable PoE 6-digit time displays?

[Bob Bownes]

Power over Ethernet. 48V shipped down the ethernet wires. Generally used to
power IP telephones, but WiFi Access points and other technologies have
jumped on the bandwagon as well.



On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 12:25 PM, Mike Feher  wrote:

> Hi all -
>
> Sorry for an ignorant question from an old man, but what does PoE stand
> for? Thanks & Regards - Mike
>
> Mike B. Feher, N4FS
> 89 Arnold Blvd.
> Howell NJ 07731
> 848-245-9115
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Affordable PoE 6-digit time displays?

[Mike Feher]

Hi all -

Sorry for an ignorant question from an old man, but what does PoE stand for? 
Thanks & Regards - Mike 

Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115

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Re: [time-nuts] Affordable PoE 6-digit time displays?

[Rob Seaman]

We have had good luck with several (8) of these SNTP POE units:

https://www.amazon.com/TimeMachines-Precision-Digital-Clock-Digits/dp/B002R7KHAM/
Sturdy black metal case. I don’t think we’ve fried any in a year plus. I 
knocked one or two onto a carpeted floor from a modest height and it survived. 
Units are programmable (TZ, etc) via a flexible web interface and can display 
date instead of, or alternating with, time. As a handy setup feature you can 
double click a button in back to get it to scroll its DHCP address. Appears to 
have some features like countdown timer and options like an added relay to 
trigger alarms, but we haven’t used those. If your switch doesn’t do POE you’ll 
need a TP-Link or equivalent POE injector adding ~$15. They might offer a 
powered option, but not obvious why to prefer such to the injector option.
They have 4 and 6 digit models, two different sizes, and red/white/green. We 
don’t have any of the green, and generally prefer the red to the white. Like 
many LED devices the illuminated segments fade a bit as they are broken in, but 
can be programmed to a few different brightness levels, so start faint and 
crank them up later. Readable from across a pretty large room. The 6x2.5” are 
rack-mountable with a $15 kit; this unit is about 2-1/3U so will leave a little 
space above and below in a 3U section of rack.
SNTP seems sufficient to the job, at least with our reference clocks, and two 
units in the same control room set to UTC and local time will tick the seconds 
in lockstep with each other and external references to a small fraction of a 
second (hundredths or better).
Rob Seaman, University of Arizona
(No connection to the company.)
—
> On Jun 14, 2018, at 9:15 PM, David Andersen  > wrote:
> 
> I'd hoped that ebay or aliexpress would yield a bounty given how seemingly
> simple these are, but I'm drawing a blank (and finding a lot of $300+ new
> options).  Anyone have a favorite source for either flat wall-mount or
> rackmount displays that will pull from an NTP/SNTP/whatever server?
> 
> (if wall-mount, PoE is optimal).  Used good.  Cheap good.  Looks good next
> to my random collection of antiquated time measurement gear provides
> amusement value but isn't really critical. :-)
> 
> Thanks!
> 
>  -Dave

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Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 Lady Heather problem

[Jerry Hancock]

I had the same issue until I switched to a real RS422 converter instead of just 
using the rs232 types and hoping for luck.  Also, as there are both positive 
and negative terminals on emit and receive, I think switching from one to the 
other kept it from hanging.  But by then I had ordered the cheap RS422 
converters and installed them anyway.

If you want the parts I used:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-to-RS485-RS422-Serial-Converter-Adapter-Cable-w-FTDI-Chip-FOR-Windows-10-7/192401198462?hash=item2ccc014d7e:g:hdsAAOSwCMFaC7H9
 



Regards,

Jerry


> On Jun 16, 2018, at 8:58 AM, ew via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> Thank you, will see what we can do
>  
> In a message dated 6/16/2018 10:41:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> artgod...@gmail.com writes:
> 
>  
> I was running two for a while, then needed the FTDI converters for
> something else. I've just reinstated one with a CH340 converter, will see
> if it has any problems.
> I'm currently connected to a ref-0, which is itself connected to another
> ref-0 modified so it functions as a ref-1.
> 
> I've used various RS422 converters : abusing RS232 is probably the worst
> option. There are alleged RS232 converters available on ebay which turn out
> to be TTL and are therefore closer to the right voltage specs than the
> product they clone badly :). However, you probably need to bias the RS422
> levels of the KS24361 to make them reliable.
> 
> I've recently found these converters :
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm//253141528330 (other sellers also have them).
> 
> I haven't opened the case to find out what drivers are used (the USB chip
> is CH340), but they're extremely cheap and nicely packaged with leds for
> RX/TX and apparently proper RS422 levels. You can chop the mini-din
> connector off, fit a DE-9 and you've got a perfect KS2461 connection. The
> wires are long, flexible and, IMHO, a nice colour :)
> 
> Connections for a male DE-9 plug to fit the KS24361 J8 are :
> 
> 3 shield
> 4 brown
> 5 orange
> 8 black
> 9 red
> 
> 
> Many converters are sold with DE-9 connectors but there seems to be no
> sensible connection standard so you end up making a conversion lead anyway.
> The smallest, neatest possible converter is FTDI's USB-RS422-WE-1800-BT
> which has the circuitry in the USB plug and wire ends for you to fit a
> DE-9. But they're $36 or so
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 2:24 PM, Clint Jay  wrote:
> 
>> I’ve experienced similar random freezing which turned out to be the
>> Prolific PL2303 USB to serial adapter, changing to a CH340 device fixed it.
>> Might be worth a look?
>> 
>> On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 at 14:11, Mod Mix  wrote:
>> 
>>> Am 16.06.2018 um 14:00 schrieb ew via time-nuts:
 My partner in crime Juerg has problems running LadyHeather with the
>>> KS-24361. Does any one run it and can help us, may want to doit off
>> list.
 
 
 Thank you Bert Kehren
>>> What kind of problem?
>>> Ulli
>>> 
>>> I've some issues from time to time: LH just freezes - not investigated
>>> further, yet.
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> --
>> Clint. M0UAW IO83
>> 
>> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
>> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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