Re: [time-nuts] OCXO info

[DM]

Brian, 
The support board part number indicates that it was used in a model HP 5328A or 
B counter. I find that some versions of that model used a 05328-60027 board. 
Maybe you misread the part number? 
Anyway, There are a number of complete manuals for the 5328A & B counters on 
the web, available for free download. Here are a few links: 
http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/ 
http://www.ebaman.com/index.php/remository/ELECTRONICS/Test-Equipment/ 
http://www.ko4bb.com/manuals/ 
http://www.keysight.com/main/facet.jspx?t=79910.g.3=US=eng=g=0 

A check into the Federal Supply System indicates that that model oscillator was 
an alternate for the venerable 10544 and 10811 oscillators, so pinouts should 
be the same as those models. 

Cheers, 
Dave M 





- Original Message -

From: "Brian Lloyd"  
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
 
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 7:29:53 PM 
Subject: [time-nuts] OCXO info 

I have an OCXO I pulled from a dead HP counter. The oscillator itself is a 
Piezo Systems 2810007-1 and it is plugged into, what appears to be, a 
buffer board, HP part number D23703F 05328-20027. 

Three questions: 

1. Does anyone have the pinout for the oscillator? 

2. Does anyone have the pinout for the buffer board? 

3. Does anyone have a 15-pin card-edge connector for the buffer board? 

My plan is to turn it into a GPSDO. 

-- 



Brian Lloyd 
706 Flightline 
Spring Branch, TX 78070 
br...@lloyd.aero 
+1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359) 
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[time-nuts] OCXO info

[Brian Lloyd]

I have an OCXO I pulled from a dead HP counter. The oscillator itself is a
Piezo Systems 2810007-1 and it is plugged into, what appears to be, a
buffer board, HP part number D23703F 05328-20027.

Three questions:

1. Does anyone have the pinout for the oscillator?

2. Does anyone have the pinout for the buffer board?

3. Does anyone have a 15-pin card-edge connector for the buffer board?

My plan is to turn it into a GPSDO.

-- 



Brian Lloyd
706 Flightline
Spring Branch, TX 78070
br...@lloyd.aero
+1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359)
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Re: [time-nuts] hp 10544A and 10811A ovenized oscillators

[Neville Michie]

HI I have had experience with two 10811 oscillators which turned out to have 
the same problem.
Inside there is a gold plated ferule mounted in teflon at the junction of the 
tuning diode and 
the transistor, obviously considered a very high impedance point, or may be 
just sensitive to leakage.
In both cases the joint was not soldered. A touch of solder and they behaved 
perfectly. Before, 
they did not respond to the adjusting voltage.
Thinking about it again, maybe the diodes were variable, so they assembled the 
oscillator so that 
the oven could operate, to see if they covered a tuning range test. If they did 
not they could change the diode.
If they forgot, they did not go back and solder the joint.
I have been feeling bad for some years as I bought a 10811 from a ham on the 
popular trading site, and when 
I complined that it was out of range and would not tune he refunded my money. A 
few months later, when a 
previously good unit failed, and I did a post mortem, I found the problem, and 
checking the first bad unit 
it had the same problem. When I looked for the ID of the guy who sold it to me 
I could not find it,
and I feel I owe him the price. After all he was a ham, not some shonky dealer.
So if two samples in four units I have had the fault, it is worth checking if 
troubles appear.
cheers, 
Neville Michie



> On 3 Nov 2018, at 06:15, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> The change is suspiciously close to the electrical tuning range of a typical 
> HP OCXO. 
> The answer may be a failure of the bias on the EFC line …..
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Nov 2, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Walter Shawlee 2  wrote:
>> 
>> I have several of these as the -010 high stability timebase options
>> in my various HP counters, and generally they work very well, with
>> usual errors under 0.01Hz and very minor drift over time.
>> 
>> a few months ago, I had a power interruption, and black out for a few hours,
>> along with the usual erratic restart from the power company. shortly 
>> afterwards, I built a nice little
>> homemade TM500 plug-in OCXO unit to fit on my bench, and without giving it 
>> much thought, used
>> my bench standard (an hp 435B-K26 power/frequency reference with an internal 
>> 10544A) to cal it.  all seemed good.
>> 
>> soon after, I was working on an hp 5334A counter, and added a 10811A as as 
>> upgrade from my
>> spares and suddenly, I had a big 1.3Hz error at 10Mhz when I cross checked 
>> it to my bench references AND a rubidium. I brought over my recently cal'd 
>> rubidium from the upstairs lab, and yes, there was now clearly a big step 
>> error. my upstairs 5335A with a 10811A had the same step effect!
>> 
>> these 2 units are always on for stability, so both got cycled the same way 
>> during the power failure.
>> 
>> it seems that the power failure cycle had bumped the internal 10544A 
>> oscillator inside the 435 by that amount, as well as the 10811A inside the 
>> 5335A. I have never seen that effect before, both the ovenized osicllators 
>> from hp have been very reliable for me, so I thought I would put that info 
>> out in case anyone else has seen this effect and knows the cause.
>> 
>> using the rubidium (which I keep off until I need it, and wait for at least 
>> 2 hours for best settling), I reset everything back to a flat 10Mhz, and all 
>> was well, except that the first 10811A I put in the 5334A conked out (oven 
>> still fine, but the oscillator went dead, giving the dreaded "no osc" 
>> message on the counter). another spare fixed that, and two days of drift 
>> testing to get everything back where it belongs.  anybody want the bad 
>> 10811A?
>> 
>> anyway, just thought the information might be handy for others.  the EFC 
>> range on the 10811A/10544A is *only 1Hz*, so such a big jump is unusual to 
>> say the least. it required the main coarse adjustment to fix.
>> The 435B-K26 is a pretty remarkable widget if you ever see one, it makes a 
>> great 10Mhz reference and 1mW power reference in one little box, very useful 
>> for an RF bench. One of hp's rare and forgotten treasures.
>> 
>> all the best,
>> walter
>> 
>> -- 
>> Walter Shawlee 2
>> Sphere Research Corp. 3394 Sunnyside Rd.
>> West Kelowna, BC, V1Z 2V4 CANADA
>> Phone: +1 (250-769-1834 -:- http://www.sphere.bc.ca
>> We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you. (WS2)
>> All you need is love. (John Lennon)
>> But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)
>> 
>> ___
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> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] hp 10544A and 10811A ovenized oscillators

[Matthew D'Asaro]

Hi. I don't have a good answer to why both of your oscillators would have 
drifted at once after the power cutout. However, I would be very interested in 
taking a look at the bad 10811A. I have always been fascinated by these and 
have wanted to take one apart (and try and understand/fix it) for several years 
but I have never been (un?)lucky enough to get my hands on a broken one. I am 
happy to pay for shipping if you are interested.

Matthew



> On Nov 2, 2018, at 11:51 AM, Walter Shawlee 2  wrote:
> 
> anybody want the bad 10811A?

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Re: [time-nuts] hp 10544A and 10811A ovenized oscillators

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The change is suspiciously close to the electrical tuning range of a typical HP 
OCXO. 
The answer may be a failure of the bias on the EFC line …..

Bob

> On Nov 2, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Walter Shawlee 2  wrote:
> 
> I have several of these as the -010 high stability timebase options
> in my various HP counters, and generally they work very well, with
> usual errors under 0.01Hz and very minor drift over time.
> 
> a few months ago, I had a power interruption, and black out for a few hours,
> along with the usual erratic restart from the power company. shortly 
> afterwards, I built a nice little
> homemade TM500 plug-in OCXO unit to fit on my bench, and without giving it 
> much thought, used
> my bench standard (an hp 435B-K26 power/frequency reference with an internal 
> 10544A) to cal it.  all seemed good.
> 
> soon after, I was working on an hp 5334A counter, and added a 10811A as as 
> upgrade from my
> spares and suddenly, I had a big 1.3Hz error at 10Mhz when I cross checked it 
> to my bench references AND a rubidium. I brought over my recently cal'd 
> rubidium from the upstairs lab, and yes, there was now clearly a big step 
> error. my upstairs 5335A with a 10811A had the same step effect!
> 
> these 2 units are always on for stability, so both got cycled the same way 
> during the power failure.
> 
> it seems that the power failure cycle had bumped the internal 10544A 
> oscillator inside the 435 by that amount, as well as the 10811A inside the 
> 5335A. I have never seen that effect before, both the ovenized osicllators 
> from hp have been very reliable for me, so I thought I would put that info 
> out in case anyone else has seen this effect and knows the cause.
> 
> using the rubidium (which I keep off until I need it, and wait for at least 2 
> hours for best settling), I reset everything back to a flat 10Mhz, and all 
> was well, except that the first 10811A I put in the 5334A conked out (oven 
> still fine, but the oscillator went dead, giving the dreaded "no osc" message 
> on the counter). another spare fixed that, and two days of drift testing to 
> get everything back where it belongs.  anybody want the bad 10811A?
> 
> anyway, just thought the information might be handy for others.  the EFC 
> range on the 10811A/10544A is *only 1Hz*, so such a big jump is unusual to 
> say the least. it required the main coarse adjustment to fix.
> The 435B-K26 is a pretty remarkable widget if you ever see one, it makes a 
> great 10Mhz reference and 1mW power reference in one little box, very useful 
> for an RF bench. One of hp's rare and forgotten treasures.
> 
> all the best,
> walter
> 
> -- 
> Walter Shawlee 2
> Sphere Research Corp. 3394 Sunnyside Rd.
> West Kelowna, BC, V1Z 2V4 CANADA
> Phone: +1 (250-769-1834 -:- http://www.sphere.bc.ca
> We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you. (WS2)
> All you need is love. (John Lennon)
> But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] A question from a newbie

[Daniel H. Pressler]

Tom,

   Thanks so much.  I downloaded both the suggest software packages and they
look excellent.  It appears to me that my Arduino with phase comparator
should be a data collection only environment since these programs seem to
have all the whistles and bells I'm looking for.  I would appreciate
anything you might have in QBASIC as well.  That will save me from the
challenge of refreshing my C code skills.

   Again, thanks so much.  This was exactly what I was looking for.

Respectfully,


Daniel H. Pressler, KF2HP



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Van Baak
Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2018 9:54 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A question from a newbie

Daniel,

There's simple C code at http://leapsecond.com/tools/adev_lib.c that does
ADEV / MDEV / TDEV / HDEV.
A sample ADEV program using that code is:
http://leapsecond.com/tools/adev1.htm

There are Python versions on the web if you're into Python and its
ecosystem.
If you want a QBASIC version let me know.

The only thing you need to watch out for is that there are two forms of the
ADEV formula. The "x" version takes phase difference as input. The "y"
version takes fractional frequency difference as input. You can convert one
to the other with differentiation or integration.

Since your old GPIB and basic days there are some very nice tools that take
all the pain out of ADEV now.
One is Stable32, highly recommended. [1]
The other is TimeLab, also highly recommended, especially if this is your
first time doing clock statistics interactively. [2]
Both have extremely well-written and informative documentation, worth
reading even if you don't use the programs.

/tvb

[1] http://www.stable32.com/
[2] http://www.ke5fx.com/timelab/readme.htm


- Original Message - 
From: "Daniel H. Pressler" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 3:05 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] A question from a newbie


>I was directed to this group when I asked this question of another group.
> However, after reading some of the emails I am a real novice when it comes
> to this stuff.  I worked with cesium and rubidium oscillators as Primary
> Reference clocks in the telecommunication industry.  When I was there I
> wrote a basic program to retrieve phase offset between two signals over
GPIB
> from a counter.  The program then calculated frequency accuracy and did
some
> Allan Variance calculations.  I am trying to replicate that with an
Arduino
> and a simple phase comparator.  I have forgotten the math and I am not
smart
> enough to glean it out of the data presented on the internet.  Can someone
> point me to some example programs that will allow me to measure phase
offset
> over time and calculate frequency accuracy and do some basic Allan
Variance
> calculation.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel H. Pressler, KF2HP
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] GPIB interfaces these days

[Scott McGrath]

I use NI USB interfaces,  They are reliable process ATN messages and of course 
have the vast programming library associated with NI interfaces.

Used ones can be found on the well known auction site for 250-400 bucks.
Make sure you get the BLUE ONES the Brown ones are USB 1.0 and are obsolete.

As to your older Prologix interfaces they SHOULD still work just fine,  i dont 
think much has changed with them over the years other than packaging.   Get the 
driver  and give them a shot.



On Nov 2, 2018, at 7:39 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:

How important is ATN in a typical time-nuts usage ?

I can see it being important in a complex ATE setup where some instruments
are automatically providing data to a schedule and need to be serviced, but
in my understanding the time-nuts case is often capturing a stream of data
from a single TIC. Are there other common configurations that need ATN
handling ?

Although GPIB is (obviously) a bus, it seems to me that modern usage could
be handled more easily using multiple USB interfaces, each connected to
only one instrument. This means the interface can be much cheaper than an
82357a or similar, because it doesn't need bus buffers capable of driving a
full load, and you can use lightweight USB cabling instead of the heavy
GPIB cable.

Getting further off-topic (so please followup off-list if this is of
interest), I'm surprised that the 82357a appears to contain both an FPGA
and a cypress FX2 USB device. The cypress device has a crude (8051)
processor but also a programmable DMA engine that ought to be capable of
doing the source-acceptor handshake on its own. Why does the HP interface
need the FPGA too ?

You can buy FX2 dev boards (sold to be used as clones of Salae and other
USB logic analysers) for a few pounds each. Of course, this doesn't allow
instrument-to-instrument transfers but this is probably mitigated by having
a fast PC and multiple busses - a star rather than a bus topology.



On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 9:43 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> I use a national instruments PCI-GPIB card in a Windows 10 PC, works just
> fine.   Usually can find them <$100 on eBay.
> 
> I've also used a HP/Agilent 82357A (or B) which does USB-GPIB for those
> cases when you need it for a laptop or something else without a pci or pcie
> slot.
> 
> I understand the USB ones in particular are prone to being counterfeited,
> but evidently most of the counterfeit ones work even though they're not
> original HP/Agilent.
> 
> There are various other options out there, for instance prologix (and
> possibly others) make a GPIB-ETHERNET converter which will convert GPIB
> instruments to network instruments.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 2:05 AM Rex  wrote:
>> 
>> So I've got some test equipment devices (mostly HP) with GPIB (or
>> actually HPIB) connectors. Also a few others as non-HP stuff.
>> 
>> Mostly I have talked to them with a NI GPIB card in a PCMCIA slot in a
>> laptop. Works great but the small notebook PC I have with a PCMIA slot
>> is from the early 2000's and I'm worrying what if it dies. It is running
>> XP but usually not on the internet.
>> 
>> I also have a couple very early aluminum case Prologix USB interfaces
>> that I haven't tried to use in 10 years. I think I remember hearing
>> these early ones had some issues, and I'd have to dig to re-learn how to
>> talk to them.
>> 
>> So I haven't looked at GPIB interface devices in a long time but I'm
>> getting a bit paranoid about the good NI PCMCIA card in a very old PC.
>> 
>> I don't remember seeing much discussion about this lately.
>> 
>> Is there anything new I should look at. I would have thought there might
>> be something with Arduino or maybe Ras Pi by now, possibly needing some
>> interfacing hardware, but I'm not aware of anything.
>> 
>> So, any advice from the group?  Old or new. Are my very old Prologix
>> interfaces still worth looking at?
>> 
>> -Rex
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
> 
> --
> *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>   
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] GPIB interfaces these days

[Adrian Godwin]

How important is ATN in a typical time-nuts usage ?

I can see it being important in a complex ATE setup where some instruments
are automatically providing data to a schedule and need to be serviced, but
in my understanding the time-nuts case is often capturing a stream of data
from a single TIC. Are there other common configurations that need ATN
handling ?

Although GPIB is (obviously) a bus, it seems to me that modern usage could
be handled more easily using multiple USB interfaces, each connected to
only one instrument. This means the interface can be much cheaper than an
82357a or similar, because it doesn't need bus buffers capable of driving a
full load, and you can use lightweight USB cabling instead of the heavy
GPIB cable.

Getting further off-topic (so please followup off-list if this is of
interest), I'm surprised that the 82357a appears to contain both an FPGA
and a cypress FX2 USB device. The cypress device has a crude (8051)
processor but also a programmable DMA engine that ought to be capable of
doing the source-acceptor handshake on its own. Why does the HP interface
need the FPGA too ?

You can buy FX2 dev boards (sold to be used as clones of Salae and other
USB logic analysers) for a few pounds each. Of course, this doesn't allow
instrument-to-instrument transfers but this is probably mitigated by having
a fast PC and multiple busses - a star rather than a bus topology.



On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 9:43 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> I use a national instruments PCI-GPIB card in a Windows 10 PC, works just
> fine.   Usually can find them <$100 on eBay.
>
> I've also used a HP/Agilent 82357A (or B) which does USB-GPIB for those
> cases when you need it for a laptop or something else without a pci or pcie
> slot.
>
> I understand the USB ones in particular are prone to being counterfeited,
> but evidently most of the counterfeit ones work even though they're not
> original HP/Agilent.
>
> There are various other options out there, for instance prologix (and
> possibly others) make a GPIB-ETHERNET converter which will convert GPIB
> instruments to network instruments.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 2:05 AM Rex  wrote:
>
> > So I've got some test equipment devices (mostly HP) with GPIB (or
> > actually HPIB) connectors. Also a few others as non-HP stuff.
> >
> > Mostly I have talked to them with a NI GPIB card in a PCMCIA slot in a
> > laptop. Works great but the small notebook PC I have with a PCMIA slot
> > is from the early 2000's and I'm worrying what if it dies. It is running
> > XP but usually not on the internet.
> >
> > I also have a couple very early aluminum case Prologix USB interfaces
> > that I haven't tried to use in 10 years. I think I remember hearing
> > these early ones had some issues, and I'd have to dig to re-learn how to
> > talk to them.
> >
> > So I haven't looked at GPIB interface devices in a long time but I'm
> > getting a bit paranoid about the good NI PCMCIA card in a very old PC.
> >
> > I don't remember seeing much discussion about this lately.
> >
> > Is there anything new I should look at. I would have thought there might
> > be something with Arduino or maybe Ras Pi by now, possibly needing some
> > interfacing hardware, but I'm not aware of anything.
> >
> > So, any advice from the group?  Old or new. Are my very old Prologix
> > interfaces still worth looking at?
> >
> > -Rex
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> --
> *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>   
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] GPIB interfaces these days

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I use a national instruments PCI-GPIB card in a Windows 10 PC, works just
fine.   Usually can find them <$100 on eBay.

I've also used a HP/Agilent 82357A (or B) which does USB-GPIB for those
cases when you need it for a laptop or something else without a pci or pcie
slot.

I understand the USB ones in particular are prone to being counterfeited,
but evidently most of the counterfeit ones work even though they're not
original HP/Agilent.

There are various other options out there, for instance prologix (and
possibly others) make a GPIB-ETHERNET converter which will convert GPIB
instruments to network instruments.



On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 2:05 AM Rex  wrote:

> So I've got some test equipment devices (mostly HP) with GPIB (or
> actually HPIB) connectors. Also a few others as non-HP stuff.
>
> Mostly I have talked to them with a NI GPIB card in a PCMCIA slot in a
> laptop. Works great but the small notebook PC I have with a PCMIA slot
> is from the early 2000's and I'm worrying what if it dies. It is running
> XP but usually not on the internet.
>
> I also have a couple very early aluminum case Prologix USB interfaces
> that I haven't tried to use in 10 years. I think I remember hearing
> these early ones had some issues, and I'd have to dig to re-learn how to
> talk to them.
>
> So I haven't looked at GPIB interface devices in a long time but I'm
> getting a bit paranoid about the good NI PCMCIA card in a very old PC.
>
> I don't remember seeing much discussion about this lately.
>
> Is there anything new I should look at. I would have thought there might
> be something with Arduino or maybe Ras Pi by now, possibly needing some
> interfacing hardware, but I'm not aware of anything.
>
> So, any advice from the group?  Old or new. Are my very old Prologix
> interfaces still worth looking at?
>
> -Rex
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
*Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
  

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[time-nuts] GPIB interfaces these days

[Rex]

So I've got some test equipment devices (mostly HP) with GPIB (or 
actually HPIB) connectors. Also a few others as non-HP stuff.


Mostly I have talked to them with a NI GPIB card in a PCMCIA slot in a 
laptop. Works great but the small notebook PC I have with a PCMIA slot 
is from the early 2000's and I'm worrying what if it dies. It is running 
XP but usually not on the internet.


I also have a couple very early aluminum case Prologix USB interfaces 
that I haven't tried to use in 10 years. I think I remember hearing 
these early ones had some issues, and I'd have to dig to re-learn how to 
talk to them.


So I haven't looked at GPIB interface devices in a long time but I'm 
getting a bit paranoid about the good NI PCMCIA card in a very old PC.


I don't remember seeing much discussion about this lately.

Is there anything new I should look at. I would have thought there might 
be something with Arduino or maybe Ras Pi by now, possibly needing some 
interfacing hardware, but I'm not aware of anything.


So, any advice from the group?  Old or new. Are my very old Prologix 
interfaces still worth looking at?


-Rex



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