[time-nuts] Re: GPS failed

[David G. McGaw via time-nuts]

With the new 5G hardware, we are seeing all manner of new interference, 
some of it quite broad-band.  A good antenna with sharp SAW filter may 
help, but not if the emmisions are in-band. Besides broad-band, there 
also can be 2nd harmonic emissions that cause interference.  We had this 
problem with an Iridium ground station (just above the GPS L1 frequency) 
for scientific balloon data that had a new cell installation placed 
nearby.  We had (and thankfully were able to) have the cell base station 
shut down while we were flying.


73,

David N1HAC

On 7/11/22 9:27 AM, paul swed via time-nuts wrote:

Skipp
I am aware at least in the US that there is the possibility of 5G
interference along with newer possible bands that 5G can use. I have read
several articles in a publication called GNSS.


Thats why I am using wwvb at 60 KHz. Humor intended.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Jul 11, 2022 at 8:49 AM skipp Isaham via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:


Hello to the Group,

I'd like to get some opinions and war stories regarding GPS reliability at
high RF level and elevation locations.

Background:  Three different hill-top GPS receivers, all different types,
using
different antennas mounted on an outside fixiture, plain view of the open
sky,
all stopped working.

Test antennas were brought in and placed on a fixture well away from the
original antennas, the recevers went back in to capture and lock.

 From what I understand, the original antennas are what I would call
straight
preamp with no pre-selection / filtering.

The ordered and now inbound replacements are said to contain a SAW filter
system. It is the intent of the client to just place these "improved
antennas" in
to service and get on with life.

I would suspect a GPS antenna (and receiver) could be subject to RF
overload
or blocking, however, we're assuming nothing major has changed at the
site, nor
any nearby location.  One might think there are more GPS receivers being
pushed
out of reliable operation by the world around them, I'm just not hearing
those stories
from a lot of people using them (GPS receivers).

Any new install GPS receiver antenna ordered will/should contain some
pre-selection
to potentially avoid a problem, even some years down the road? Seems like
that's
where things are going... no more off the shelf, wide band, (hot)
preamplified GPS antennas
in busy locations?

Thank you in advance for any related comments and/or opions ...

cheers,

skipp

skipp025 at jah who dot calm
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[time-nuts] Re: 4096 PLL - how to switch off on-chip VCO

[David G. McGaw]

The part number has been garbled a bit, but the members of the family 
are 74HC/HCT4046, 74HC/HCT7046 and 74HCT9046, the last one having a 
significantly better phase detector.  The on-board oscillator should not 
be a issue, but on the '4046 and '7046, pin 5 held low disables the 
oscillator.  On the '9046, pin 5 shuts the whole chip down, but there is 
a way to force the oscillator to a zero frequency.


73,

David N1HAC

On 2/22/22 8:09 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Best guess:

Your 10 MHz (for whatever reason) is being turned into a fast edge
square wave. That’s dumping current spikes into the supply and ground
on your board. You have a really wide spectrum as a result ( usually
well up into the GHz region).

That “stuff” is going here / going there. Some of it is getting into your
amplifier / filter chain by one route or the other. It looks like modulation
because of the filtering in your multiplier chain.

Since the PLL chip does the same thing ( when it generates 10 MHz
into the phase detector, there are two possible sources of the fast edges
and current spikes. Yes this makes tracking things down a bit more
fun.

Either way, the answer is board layout / bypassing / decoupling related.

If you want to go with a different “low frequency” phase detector chip,
the ADF4002 has been a go to part for quite a while.

Bob


On Feb 21, 2022, at 9:27 PM, g...@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de wrote:

Hi!

I'm building a clock source for my LMX2594 15 GHz PLL.

I want to max out the LMX2594 phase comparator frequency;
that means 300 MHz for fractional operation. The VCXO is a
100 MHz ECOC-2250 crystal oven by ECS because I have it,
and it's tripled.

Dumping its output into a pair of 1G125 line drivers gets me
this spectrum: (100 MHzpng) The 300 MHz is quite prominent
with not much of a loss. I dumped it into a 300 MHz filter,
3 poles, C-coupled, then a sot-89 MMIC and another 3 poles.
That cleaned up the harmonics quite good. Sorry, there were
no 300 MHz SAW-filters available. All obsoleted.
The filter is 6 Murata 0603 SMD inductors and fixed Cs. Still a
bit to the low side; that can be fixed.

BUT - there is a problem. The 100 MHz can be locked to an external
10 MHz reference, and the 10 MHz is modulated onto the 300 MHz.
I do not want this to be multiplied to 15 GHz.

There is a 74lvc163 counter that is visible as well. (100/10 = 10 MHz)
The PLL chip is a 74lv4046, the phase comparator part. When the
reference is != 10 MHz and the prescaler is running, OMG, grass like
on an African steppe. Only the zebras are missing.
Without ext ref: sx3fQ8.png

I don't think that the VCXO has thus a large modulation bandwidth
and I'd like to replace the 4046 with a 9046, but I've found no
way to switch off its internal oscillator. Having not-vanishing loop
gain at lock is fine, but getting the 8046's undefined on-chip VCO
on the output spectrum would be no improvement.

Any ideas?

Cheers, Gerhard

p.s.
How can the spectrum analyzer (89411A) encode such sharp screen dumps in just 3 
KB?

<100MHz_from 2 * 
lvc125.png><300mhzmal2-sky17.png>___
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[time-nuts] Re: Garmin GPS 25 Module

[David G. McGaw]

I have a number of Garmin GPS35s which are the same engine in a mouse 
package.  They are still working and do not have the roll-over problem 
because they can be programmed with the current date and time if need be 
(I wish Trimble had done this with the Thunderbolts).  The NVRAM can get 
corrupted and may take a while to reset.  I also have a procedure I got 
from Garmin to clear it if it does not take care of itself.


David N1HAC

On 2/9/22 10:57 AM, Andy Talbot wrote:

Yes, I had to disable the GSV sentence to get the data flow down to a level
that could be sent at the lower speed.
I'm only using  GPRMC, so all the others could be removed as well, but as
GPRMC comes first in the block every second, there's nothing to be gained
from killing any of the others sentences.

I did fall foul once of a changed format.   Originally I wrote for an RMC
string that just gave integer seconds.   On using my code with a later
module it failed, and I spotted that it was sending decimal seconds, so had
to rewrite my PIC code to cope with that.
Then later, using other module types, GPRMC became GNRMC to cope with
Glonass etc. so that was another change needed.

Andy
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.g4jnt.com%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C4d1fde6e4e5847e5ef7608d9ebe686f2%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637800197633061750%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000sdata=EEF8lAjyACwHRvSDDZG0lyW6w%2BZPBJcJuqZeZ6Jrt8s%3Dreserved=0



On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 at 15:49, Bob kb8tq  wrote:


Hi

In terms of upgrading the GPS module(s):

You might want to look at just *what* NMEA messages are being used.
While the format is “standard” it’s not quite dead nuts in some cases.
Vendors get to add this and that and it still is NMEA. Converting from
one family to another is not always easy.

I would also want to check the GPS antenna at the remote site. They
don’t last forever. Flakey sat signals can drive a module a bit nuts.

GPS modules have gotten pretty cheap over the years. If this is a long
drive / crazy access sort of thing, redundancy is not as expensive on
the module (or antenna) side as it once was.

Bob


On Feb 9, 2022, at 4:36 AM, Andy Talbot  wrote:

I run a set of microwave beacons on a remote site that transmit data

modes

whose Tx timing is controlled from GPS.   They were installed some 20

years

ago and used a Garmin GPS25-LVS module to deliver NMA and 1 PPS signals

to

all five individual controllers.

After a power outage that lasted a couple of days, the beacons fired up

but

it was clear, after a couple of days timing was corrupted.  Each beacon

has

slightly different controller firmware, and by monitoring the resulting
corrupted modulation it could be determined what was wrong.No PPS
signal was present - which killed modulation on two of them. NMEA timing
data was present but the time being reported was out by several seconds,
rendering the data signal transmitted undecodable by most people.

I went up to the remote site to recover the old hardware and am in the
process of replacing the timing source using a Ublox NEO-6.   Since all

the

beacons were originally designed based on 4800 baud NMEA, the Ublox was

set

for this for backwards compatibility with the Garmin and the

configuration

saved in NV ram.

Now the query I have.   I had assumed it was a 1024 week rollover that
killed the Garmin, but on testing teh module when I returned home, after

a

longer than normal initialisation period it DID start outputting the
correct date and time, with PPS present.   So the initial reboot failed,
even after a couple of days attempt, but after a power cycle it worked.

I'm puzzled by that behaviour.  Is anyone here familar with the GPS25
family, dating from the turn of the millennium?

As an aside, a Jupiter TU60 GPS module was also in use on site,

delivering

a GPS locked 10kHz signal.   This I used to lock a 10MHz reference in
"Probably the Simplest GPSDO Possible"  
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fg4jnt.com%2FSimpleGPSDO.pdfdata=04%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C4d1fde6e4e5847e5ef7608d9ebe686f2%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637800197633061750%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000sdata=WhJg63l8ZeetkN4G%2FbvI6Nx9pi9M3cbFeHXXH%2F4oWQo%3Dreserved=0
That module, which is not a lot newer than the Garmin, did appear to have
survived the reboot as the resulting frequencies of the beacons were
spot-on when they returned with their modulation faults.  However, in the
spirit of doing the job properly, it too is being replaced with a
Leo-Bodnar mini GPSDO.
All beacon details at scrbg.org


Andy

[time-nuts] Re: help reviving Trimble UCCM-LPS GPSDO

[David G. McGaw]

I have a couple of Trimble UCCMs.  They would not come ready unless pin 
39 of the 50 pin ribbon connector is grounded.  This selects the 1PPS 
sync source.  Ground is internal, open is external.


73,

David N1HAC

On 12/24/21 7:39 AM, Wilko Bulte wrote:

hi Francois,

That EEVblog thread discusses (mainly) the UCCM produced by 
Symmetricom.  If I remember correctly the Symm uses a 12V powered 
OCXO, likely with another Vref output.  I sold my Symm, the two 
Samsung UCCM I have found to be "just working always".


In the meantime I have measured the EFC voltage of the Trimble over a 
long period (interval 2 sec). Vref is 2.5V, taken from a LM336.




In more detail



At about 2.5V EFC voltage I measure 10MHz output, plus/minus a couple 
of mHz. So using a Vref of 2.5V I do get an EFC voltage in the right 
range.


Unfortunately the Trimble never goes GPS locked. LH reports FFOM: Init 
and Operation mode: Settling. Reported TFOM is 2.  No idea why it does 
not lock, the GPS sees ample sats and is in position lock mode.


Ideas welcome!

Wilko

> On 24 Dec 2021, at 12:41, F1CHF  wrote:
>
> error in the Link ?
> is it the good one ?
> tks
>
>
> https://www.eevblog 

> 
com/forum/projects/a-look-at-my-symmetricom-gpsdo-(ocxo-furuno-receiver)/msg3

> 78499/#msg3778499
>
> francois
>
>
>
> ---Message original---
>
> De : Wilko Bulte
> Date : 23/12/2021 20:50:36
> A : Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Sujet : [time-nuts] Re: help reviving Trimble UCCM-LPS GPSDO
>
>
>
>>> On 23 Dec 2021, at 18:58, Attila Kinali  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 12:14:48 -0500
>>> Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>>
>>> It’s a pretty good bet that the Vref is 5V
>>
>> A quick google lead me to this forum post:
>> https://www.eevblog 

> 
com/forum/projects/a-look-at-my-symmetricom-gpsdo-(ocxo-furuno-receiver)/1325

>
>>
>> Looks like the Vref is supposed to be 2.5V
>
> For the Symmetricom UCCM or for the Trimble?
>
> These UCCM are form-fit-function compatible but that does not mean the
> circuits are the same. Or the OcXO.
>
> Samsung also produced UCCM, of which I have 2, both working fine. Again
> different circuits, different GPS etc.
>
> Wilko
>>
>>   Attila Kinali
>> --
>> The driving force behind research is the question: "Why?"
>> There are things we don't understand and things we always
>> wonder about. And that's why we do research.
>>   -- Kobayashi Makoto
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[time-nuts] Re: QM10 Quartz chronometer

[David G. McGaw]

But not in a chronometer.  They usually use something in the MHz range.

32kHz crystals are not very stable over temperature.  Watches rely on 
you wearing it for much of the day, keeping it at a nearly constant 
temperature and putting it on your bed stand at night, also presumably 
fairly constant.  Unfortunately they have been adopted for computer Real 
Time Clocks, which is why most computers do not keep very good time.


David N1HAC

On 11/26/21 9:14 AM, Scott McGrath wrote:

Usually in analog quartz clocks oscillator frequency is around 32khz

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

On Nov 26, 2021, at 9:09 AM, Peter Torry via time-nuts 
 wrote:

Hello list,

I am restoring a Seiko Quartz QM10 Marine Chronometer that is currently 
inoperative. Preliminary investigations would indicate that the oscillator (TO5 
header) isn't functioning therefore I am seeking any information as to its 
nominal frequency and whether it is just a crystal or an oscillator. I can 
follow the cmos dividers OK but a schematic diagram would be most useful.

Any help or pointers much appreciated.

Kind regards

Peter   UK
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[time-nuts] Re: Thunderbolts ...

[David G. McGaw]

I have been using several versions of the UCCM units (Trimble, 
Symmetricom and Samsung) with mostly good results, both bare and 
packaged, as well as having several Thunderbolts.  The one thing that 
the Bodinar unit has which is nice is the synthesizer built in.  The 
Thunderbolts and UCCMs do not have this.  On the other hand, as has been 
said, the Bodinar unit has poor hold-over performance if you lose GPS 
lock, which here in NH amongst the trees and hills can happen fairly 
frequently.  As a result, I use OXCO GPSDOs with an external synthesizer.


David N1HAC

On 7/20/21 1:32 PM, N1BUG wrote:
Good question on the Leo Bodnar comparison. That's what I am using now 
and I am sure it is good enough for my purposes but I really want 
something I can use with LH and maybe the KO4BB Thunderbolt Monitor. I 
also inquired about the Thunderbolts and hope there's enough supply 
that I can grab one. I've been looking for a while but am hesitant on 
eBay units.


Paul N1BUG



On 7/20/21 1:11 PM, Bob Darlington wrote:
Same.  He probably got 250+ requests in short order.  I'm curious how 
the

Leo Bodnar GPSDOs compare.   I'm considering one of these over a
thunderbolt for field use for ham radio EME work.

-Bob N3XKB

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 10:59 AM Wes  wrote:

I wrote Tom, at the address he gave, on Saturday with a query.  So 
far, no

reply.

Wes  N7WS

   On 7/19/2021 4:59 PM, John Miles wrote:
If you're looking for a low cost surplus GPSDO, the ones Tom 
mentioned in
his post on Saturday are the ones you want.  Not a Thunderbolt-E, 
and not

something from the China surplus/e-waste market.

-- john, KE5FX


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[time-nuts] Time travel, was Re: Sparkfun lists SA.35m

[David G. McGaw]

Speaking of aspirational, for those interested in time travel (that 
comes under "time nuts", no?  ;-) ) there is this: 
https://www.oreillyauto.com/flux-500.html


David N1HAC

On 4/3/21 11:10 AM, David Witten wrote:

It seems to be aspirational.
It has been on the SparkX page for a long time now.

Dave



Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 07:15:13 +
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" 
Subject: [time-nuts] Sparkfun lists SA.35m
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 
Message-ID: <81790.1617434...@critter.freebsd.dk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I know it's not a particular outstanding atomic clock, but I was still
surprised to see that Sparkfun lists the SA.35m for $1995...

 
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sparkfun.com%2Fproducts%2F14830data=04%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C4b95cfe1ab1d4dd16a9908d8f6b2d120%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637530595160825064%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=IWKhFZl8W%2BjRAMdcIMfBcTArNXyYXZtndC6XcQseLT4%3Dreserved=0

Not in stock though...

--
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


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Re: [time-nuts] Old Crystal.

[David G. McGaw]

Stamp on the top is 1000 kHz in Russian.

David N1HAC

On 2/28/21 6:35 PM, Dan Kemppainen wrote:

Hi All,

I've picked up a couple of old crystals. Mostly because they look 
neat. They are 1Mhz, in a glass tube. The quartz is ~25mm dia, at 
about 1 mm thick. Was able to get them to oscillate using a Colpitts 
circuit. They will oscillate at 2.851Mhz (probably some strange mode)  
if given the chance.


I've been scouring my reference books here, and haven't had much luck 
finding any details on how one would even guess at the parameters of a 
quartz like this.


There area few numbers on them, 33 stamped on the side, 1000 (KHz???) 
on the top, 87 on the top, and hand written 501 (probably a SN). 
Digging on line, I'd guess an AT cut based on thickness. I'm guessing 
the 33 is capacitance in pF. 87, might be year.


If any of you have any suggestions on where to find information on how 
to get something like this to oscillate properly, guess at correct 
parameters, or even measure any of the parameters I would really 
appreciate it.


I'm sure these are really nothing special, but it would be neat to 
give them a fighting chance to show what they can or can't do without 
breaking them!


Thanks,
Dan

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Re: [time-nuts] Radio Controlled Clocks

[David G. McGaw]

A clock that uses an NMEA stream for its display will be a few hundred 
milliseconds slow, dependent on the chosen data products and serial baud 
rate, as NMEA gives the time of the previous second mark.


David N1HAC

On 12/27/20 9:54 AM, Andy Talbot wrote:

I've just had a look around the house, and actually have four MSF clocks
and an old wristwatch minus its strap (antenna is a small ferrite rod
inside).  Forgot I had an old Junghans one as well - that is sitting out in
the shed as it requires a stronger signal than the more modern ones, and
seems to get better reception out there.   It's the only one that shows MSF
outages as it updates every hour - and the battery seems to last forever!
  I never checked to see how close that is to GPS;  if they implement proper
timing or just a simple delay bodge.

Andy
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On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 at 14:02, Peter Vince  wrote:


Hello Andy,

  I have an old Maplin digital LCD clock for MSF, and that is always
about a second slow, but the Coopers analogue clocks are MUCH closer, as is
the Junghens DCF digital LCD clock.  But the Junghens DCF clock always
misses one or other of the DST changes!

  Peter


On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 at 12:11, Andy Talbot  wrote:

With this talk of Radio Controlled clocks...
I have three domestic RC clocks here, receiving the UK 60kHz signal, MSF.
   However, I notice that when compared against a GPS clock, timed from

the

1 PPS signal & NMEA output, they all are a few hundred milliseconds fast,
ie the display changes just before the GPS derived time.

...
...

I only ever have digital display clocks, so wouldn't know if the same
happens with round ones with hands.Anyone else using domestic MSF or
DCF77 clocks who have observed this?

Andy
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Re: [time-nuts] "When you google word ..."

[David G. McGaw]

I am not sure why they would be discouraged.  We have known of the 
gravitational red-shift for a while and it is of course part of GPS 
calculations.  The Mossbauer effect, which involves a very narrow 
nuclear resonance, was used to demonstrate it in 1959 over a height of 
22.5 meters (the Pound–Rebka experiment).  It is cool that we now have 
clocks accurate enough to detect changes of the order of meters and 
getting better.


David N1HAC

On 10/29/20 10:32 PM, The Fiber Guru wrote:

I actually had the privilege of hearing David Allan present his theories in the 
yearly NIST conference in Boulder.  Interesting fellow.

One thing that was pretty cool is that NIST developed a fountain clock that is 
so accurate it is influenced by altitude.  They had to raise the clock once to 
install a new floor beneath and when they raised the clock it impacted the 
frequency.  Originally discouraged by this it suddenly occurred to someone that 
they had developed an extremely accurate way to measure height!  Now they just 
have to miniaturize it and make it affordable (of course this is the bane of 
laboratory experiments).

I was once Dir of R at a fortune 50 electronics firm and love hanging out in 
labs like NIST.

db


On Oct 29, 2020, at 7:00 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote:

Also when you google  "alien deviation" you get:

About 11,800,000 results (0.50 seconds)

Cheers! :>)

Corby
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB/Anthorn Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 195, Issue 27

[David G. McGaw]

Note that WWVB is 60kHz, not 65kHz.

David N1HAC

On 10/18/20 10:35 AM, paul swed wrote:

Andre you can add layers of litz wire. You actually have litz wire? Thats
hard to find these days. But it most likely will need to be more than a few
layers. I would slip to small pieces of cardboard on both sides of the
existing coil (glue in place) and then fill with the new wire. Check the L
every 5 layers. May guess you need 10.
But what you want to do can be done.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:54 AM Andre  wrote:


Hi folks.
Just a quick question, but I found a small AM/FM radio here (50p!) with a
tiny ferrite rod.
Wonder what it uses to set the frequency for AM range?
Surely not a tuning diode like MV1404 as these are incredibly expen$ive.
Was wondering about pulling the rod and modifying it for WWVB as my
existing radio clock
works and it would be a shame to mess that up.
Should be easy enough as I have (somewhere!) a working LCR meter so can
wind a suitable
winding over the existing one if its too far off or simply add a couple of
layers of Litz wire
to approximate the required 65 kHz WWVB.
I'd also need to locate a 65 kHz quartz crystal for the XT2 position.
External antenna might be better here as it would be very weak indeed
being from the USA
but there's a couple of methods I can use to improve this like using an
optical relay from
multiple locations at equidistant points.
thanks! Andre


From: time-nuts  on behalf of
time-nuts-requ...@lists.febo.com 
Sent: 17 October 2020 23:02
Teference to match the DUT.  But if you do want to mix both the REF and
DUT channels, wouldn't it be better to use a single source to drive both
mixers?

John


On 10/17/20 8:59 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

I'm trying to make a quick frequency extender for a timepod.
MCL PSC2-1 power divider, 2* SRA-1  7 dBm ring mixer, 2 DIL 80

MHz-oscillators

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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN 99600 monitoring at 100 KHz

[David G. McGaw]

I had to change from my "Marine Standard" 3 ft whip and preamp to a 
small loop antenna and high-gain preamp, but am getting the signal in a 
lot of noise and spherics in NH such that an Austron 2100F is locking.  
There is a big difference between 1MW from Nantucket and 75kW from New 
Jersey!


David N1HAC

On 8/14/20 5:52 PM, Dana Whitlow wrote:

Thanks, Paul.

Does this "standard marine preamp" have an integrated antenna of some kind?
If not (or  you're not using it), can you tell me about the antenna you
*are* using?

I've not "heard" so much as a peep here in south central Texas, but have
only
looked in the daytime.  Is the station transmitting around the clock?

I do suffer from an abysmally-high noise level here.  But I'm trying to get
a
handle on whether it's even worth my trying further.

Dana


On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 4:23 PM paul swed  wrote:


Dana that was 11:29 am when you emailed me. Looking at the 3586 its -49 db
now.
To your second question I can't really know that. Its a standard marine
preamp. Might guess 20-30 db. But its nothing special. Made by a company
STS. Classic FET, filter , 2 X transistor design. It would be a bit of a
math guess to use the 3586 reading and deduce the actual field strength.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 4:08 PM Dana Whitlow 
wrote:


Paul,

What time of day did you measure that signal strength?

And what are the characteristics of the "standard marine preamp"?
Most importantly, what field strength corresponds to 1000 uV output from
it?

Thanks,

Dana


On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 12:17 PM paul swed  wrote:


Hello to the group.
The signal is on the air.
I have just discovered one of my favorite HP 3586 SLVM has an issue

with

sensitivity.
For reference in Boston on a second 3586 the level is -51db avg. or

1000

uv

using a standard marine preamp 6' off the ground. The signal should

remain

on until the 20th.
I think this also points to the funny issue I was seeing yesterday with
intermittent signal levels. Darn one more project to the list.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[David G. McGaw]

Hi Paul,

Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be?  I am not seeing anything 
in NH.


Thanks,

David N1HAC

On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:

Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
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[time-nuts] Austron 2100F/T manual

[David G. McGaw]

Would someone be able to send me a PDF of the Austron 2100F manual? I 
have an F, but would also be interested in looking at the T manual, as 
well.  Thanks.


73,

David N1HAC

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Re: [time-nuts] For those following ES100 WWVB receiver modules

[David G. McGaw]

The generic WWVB receivers in radio-controlled clocks are essentially 
TRF receivers using a 60kHz crystal as the tuned element.


David N1HAC

On 7/22/20 2:26 PM, Hal Murray wrote:

tsho...@gmail.com said:

I myself did some experimenting with a tuned loop antenna through a 60 kHz
crystal bandpass hooked to a ...

What is the bandwidth of the WWVB signal?
What is the bandwidth of a crystal filter?  (or probably, what are my choices,
and what do I get if I use a low cost crystal?)








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Re: [time-nuts] Just any counter external reference and discipline mode.

[David G. McGaw]

I have an 8640B in the lab.   Bizarre instrument.

David

On 7/13/20 2:57 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:



On 7/13/2020 11:34 AM, jimlux wrote:

There are also "frequency locked" devices that are not "phase locked" 
- they essentially discipline an internal oscillator by adjusting its 
frequency, but not with any sort of phase locked loop.




The 8640 famously worked (sort of) this way.  The cavity
had an extremely limited electronic tuning range, and would
only stay in lock for a few minutes before drifting off.
It would do this even if you left it on 24/7.
The display would then flash, and you had to release the
lock button, retune the frequency using the mechanical
cavity know, and then push the lock button back in.  Are
you kidding me?

Definitely in the "gee whiz", "because we can", or "too clever
by half" category.  At least they didn't have the chutzpah to
charge $ for this as an optional "feature".  The Navy, recognizing 
that this was not sailor proof, had the feature/bug omitted from the 
military

version.  Good for them.

Rick

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Re: [time-nuts] Alfred Loomis - an early time nut

[David G. McGaw]

You can watch the PBS American Experience program on him, "The Secret of 
Tuxedo Park" here:


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/secret-tuxedo-park/#part01

David N1HAC

On 5/12/20 7:56 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

Yes, the book about Loomis by Jennet Conant is highly recommended. The
"time nut" pages are here:

http://leapsecond.com/pages/loomis/Loomis-Tuxedo-Conant-p66-p70.pdf

Besides being the man behind LORAN, and a hundred other clever ideas, he
also pushed the state of the art in timekeeping, comparing the world's
best pendulum clocks against the best quartz clocks:

http://leapsecond.com/pend/pdf/1931-RAS-Analysis-Loomis-Chronograph-Brown-Brouwer.pdf
http://leapsecond.com/pend/pdf/1931-RAS-Precise-Measurement-Time-Loomis.pdf
http://leapsecond.com/pend/pdf/1932-Modern-Precision-Clocks-Loomis-Marrison.pdf

See also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Lee_Loomis

"Alfred Lee Loomis (1887—1975) A Biographical Memoir by Luis W. Alvarez"
http://www.nasonline.org/publications/biographical-memoirs/memoir-pdfs/loomis-alfred.pdf

"Tuxedo Park: A Wall Street Tycoon and the Secret Palace of Science That
Changed the Course of World War II"
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1063/1.1570779

"Talking with Alfred"
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/shapin/files/shapin_lrbtuxedopark.pdf

"Alfred Lee Loomis - Obstetric ultrasound"
http://www.ob-ultrasound.net/loomis.html

"The scientist-tycoon whose work on radar helped win WWII"
http://www1.lasalle.edu/~didio/reviews/rev_tuxedo_park.htm

/tvb


On 5/12/2020 4:24 PM, Bob Martin wrote:

/Does anyone know about Alfred Loomis and his />/early precision time measurements? 
/>//>/According to the article in the link below, he />/was also involved in WWII radar and 
the creation of Loran. />//>/http://www.ob-ultrasound.net/loomis.html />//>/bob/


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Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna splitter recommendation?

[David G. McGaw]

I use splitters made for satellite TV with good results, I think. They 
have response 5 MHz to >2 GHz and pass DC from any of the outputs to the 
input, so any or all GPS receivers can feed the antenna.  Some cabling 
can be done with F connectors, or I add adapters as necessary (F to BNC 
adapters are common).  I even have some amplified splitters, though I 
modify them so they pass the normally 5V from GPS RXs to antenna and 
have external 12V power for the amplifier.


73,

David

On 4/29/20 8:18 PM, Frank O'Donnell wrote:
I'm looking for a splitter to allow three or four GPSDO's to share my 
roof-mounted Lucent PCTEL KS24019L112C 26db GPS twist antenna.


I understand from scanning past threads that inexpensive splitters by 
companies like Mini-Circuits often turn up on eBay, but I'm having 
trouble narrowing down to one that will work for my situation. Can 
anyone recommend a specific splitter that wouldn't be too expensive?


Thanks much,

Frank




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Re: [time-nuts] HP3588A battery

[David G. McGaw]

The service manual says it is a manufacturer's part number T06/46 which 
is a Saft number and a Google search shows a number of equivalents, 
including the Tadiran.


David N1HAC

On 3/29/20 5:35 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:

Matthew wrote:

It looks like I need to replace the battery in my HP3588A spectrum 
analyzer. The service manual says the HP part number is 1420-0336.
I would like to obtain a replacement battery & be ready to swap out 
the old battery for a new one.

Anyone out there know what might be a decent replacement battery?


The 3588A battery is a Tadiran TL-5903/P 3.6v Lithium Thionyl Chloride 
cell, available from multiple vendors.  Allied has them for $8.14 each 
in single quantities.


I put together a document that covers the replacement procedure, which 
I will send you by PM.


Best regards,

Charles



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Re: [time-nuts] Trueposition behavior

[David G. McGaw]

I think it would be a dead-band.

David N1HAC

On 3/10/20 2:41 PM, djl wrote:

Is this effectively dither on the control voltage?

On 2020-03-10 10:30, Skip Withrow wrote:

Hello Time-Nuts,
A couple of weeks ago I posted regarding some weird behavior of the
Trueposition GPSDO that I was seeing.  I have now been able to get
back to the problem and have further results to report.

I have several of these GPSDOs that are version 12.0.1 (I believe the
latest is 12.1.1) and they all seem to behave the same.

I have attached two Lady Heather plots.  One is the GPSDO output of
the control voltage, the other is the 10MHz output monitored by
another NTBW GPSDO.  The bumps in the control voltage are what was
bothering me.

It appears that the way this GPSDO operates is to let the oscillator
free run until there is 50ns of accumulated time error (LH reports
'Normal' during this phase),  Then it goes into control mode, you can
see more noise on the DAC signal during this time plus the big spike,
and yanks the phase back to zero (LH reports 'Acquiring' during this
phase).

The unit must model the OCXO drift as the DAC does change during the
drift period.  So, the longer the unit runs the longer between upsets
(hopefully).  These plots were taken shortly after start up, I am in
the process of letting it run for a while now.  BTW, the very periodic
dropping and acquisition of the WAAS bird (PRN138) is still present.

This behavior is a good news/bad news situation.  On one hand, during
the drift period the output of the GPSDO is not influenced by GPS and
getting yanked around second by second (like the Thunderbolt). On the
other hand, if the 50ns yank happens when you are making a measurement
it kind of trashes things.  I haven't tried seeing if LH can disable
disciplining (for use during measurement periods).

Regards,
Skip Withrow

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Re: [time-nuts] Yukon to make Daylight Saving Time permanent after final time change Sunday

[David G. McGaw]

I still maintain that if people want another hour in the evening, they 
can get up an hour earlier.  Why do they think they need to change the 
clocks?  Some people just can't deal with reality and need someone else 
to make their decisions for them.  OK, I will step off my soapbox now.  :-)


David N1HAC

On 3/6/20 1:41 PM, Peter Loron wrote:

This is really shouldn’t be an issue. Many car manufacturers are leveraging and 
improving already existing cellular data systems in their cars to provide 
software and firmware updates over the air.  I suspect the issue is more the 
long supply chain lead times…there is a several year lag between deciding to 
have a feature and getting the car hardware and software out to the public.

Unless you are Tesla.

-Pete


On Mar 6, 2020, at 07:10, GERRY ASHTON  wrote:

I just got a 2020 car which offers to sync the clock on the instrument panel to 
the GPS receiver. But the time zone and observance of DST must be set manually. 
In principle, if the position is known, the time zone and DST can be looked up. 
But since the software in the car is not routinely updated and the various 
national, state, and provincial legislatures like to monkey with this, look up 
is not feasible.

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Re: [time-nuts] Fake new LPRO 101 Rb's on Ebay?

[David G. McGaw]

Re: China, I heard a piece on NPR that gave the opinion that the virus 
would only survive a few hours on a surface.  Anything coming from China 
should be fine.  We are probably more likely to die from panic.  ;-)


David N1HAC

On 2/4/20 4:54 AM, Clint Jay wrote:

Actinic short wavelength UV light, the same stuff you use to erase EPROMs
or sterilise scissors, pond or aquarium water will do the job but, a little
perspective, there are 1.386 billion people in China and fewer than 21,000
confirmed cases of coronavirus, fewer than 500 deaths since the outbreak
began, thus far more people have died from seasonal flu today alone.

I leave the reader ( who will probably be far better with statistical
analysis than I) to calculate the chances of a person infected with the
virus coming into contact with a package, then you can work out the chances
of said virus surviving the time the journey takes.

I'm not going to bother sterilizing goods from China and won't be
panicking, instead I'll wash my hands and cough/sneeze into tissues.

The Chinese LPro look like a good deal but the Israeli ones have the
connector and a module which seems to break it out to a d-sub and SMA,
might make it worth the extra?

On Tue, 4 Feb 2020, 09:35 Christoph Kopetzky,  wrote:


Ah OK, now I found the other offers... OK China...
Sorry for my quick first answer.
I agree with Esa. Ozone is a good method for contact-free desinfecting
goods. The other alternative will be UV light. But
ozone is much better.

best regards

Chris
---
'Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.' --
Albert Einstein

Am 04.02.2020 um 10:03 schrieb Christoph Kopetzky:

The seller is located in Israel :) not in China. So the corona would
not really be the problem.
But the items are not new(!). The product date code is 06/21/00 for
the one and 0127 as 27th week of 2001
is for the second one.

best regards

Chris
---
'Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.' --
Albert Einstein

Am 04.02.2020 um 08:29 schrieb Perry Sandeen via time-nuts:

Yo Bubba Dudes!,
There are two vendors on Ebay selling *new* LPRO 101 Rb's for around
$160 each, with discounts for larger purchases.  The general price of
a used LPRO seems to be in the $250 to $350 range.  Anybody have any
ideas?  (Discount for coronavirus?)
In all seriousness, can the coronavirus be transmitted in gear we buy
from China or does it require a living host for spreading?

Regards,
Perrier



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Re: [time-nuts] 15Mhz in 10MHz out?

[David G. McGaw]

There are simple circuits that can do a 50% duty cycle /3, then double 
to 10 MHz and filter.  You can search for Divide by 1.5.

David N1HAC

On 9/18/19 8:54 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> Dual JK flipflop configured as divide by 3 producing a 33% duty cycle 5MHz 
> output which is filtered to extract the 10MHz second harmonic component.
>
> Bruce
>> On 18 September 2019 at 21:08 "David C. Partridge" 
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Having seen the recent discussion of the NB3N502 and other PLLs for
>> frequency multiplication.  I'm wondering if anyone knows of a similar
>> *small* IC that will convert 15MHz to 10MHz ?
>>
>> Why? My current modifications to the KS24361 output 10Mhz signals regardless
>> of whether the unit has lock.   ISTR that the original 15MHz output was only
>> enabled when the unit had lock.   I'd like to redo the PCB which I put in
>> place of the 15MHz band-pass filter and replace it with one that takes 15Mhz
>> an outputs 10Mhz.
>>
>> Thanks
>> David
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Cheap GPSDO with OCXO from aliexpress

[David G. McGaw]

The BG7TBL design (that happens to be the designer's ham call sign) is 
also available on eBay in various versions.  I do have one. Seems to 
work.  The problem I have with it is that it only outputs NMEA from the 
GPS receiver.  There is no lock info from the serial port.

David N1HAC

On 9/10/19 6:04 AM, Adam Kumiszcza wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I've found an interesting product on aliexpress:
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aliexpress.com%2Fi%2F33055900193.html%3Fspm%3D2114.12057483.0.0.1f6e7820MBFZQZdata=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C7b2df69a6bb54378987908d735eb0224%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637037155788581766sdata=%2BdZ0y9erGi0vCK1L0DlcYeVMfdK722e2WdCBvIpwd6U%3Dreserved=0
>
>
> GPSDO allegedly with OCXO, 1PPS and 10MHz BNC output, RS232 output of NMEA
> and PPS, LCD screen.
> I see that there are many similar devices there.
>
> Did anybody test something of this kind?
>
> Best regards,
> Adam Kumiszcza
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antennas

[David G. McGaw]

Also, as I have found, some plastics don't just delay but actually 
absorb the signal.

David N1HAC

On 9/6/19 2:28 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
>
> The gotcha with putting anything on top of a GPS antenna is that it impacts 
> the phase
> shift from the sat’s. How important that is gets quickly into just how picky 
> you happen to be.
>
> Bob
>
>> On Sep 6, 2019, at 11:07 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I’m late to the party, but my go-to antenna is the Gilsson marine antenna. 
>> If it has a downside, it’s that it has a flat top instead of a cone. I’ve 
>> got one mounted outside at our vacation home near Lake Tahoe, so we’ll see 
>> whether snow loading becomes a problem shortly. The fix would presumably 
>> just be a 3D printed plastic gnome’s cap, though even that might not be 
>> useful if we get snow like we did last year.
>>
>> It has a standard 14 tpi 1” standard thread, though I’ve managed to make do 
>> on more than one occasion with 3/4” NPT.
>>
>> Under normal circumstances, I routinely get 8 or more satellites with the 
>> top SNRs in the 50s.
>>
>> I designed a 3D printed mount for mounting it on a flat surface (which I 
>> needed to do here): 
>> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thingiverse.com%2Fthing%3A3664978data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cf3faa3a2e9ed46ead3fb08d732fc9785%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637033932771963548sdata=IHu%2Fco9fp3KRNuoi0NNUBqR8dyWAw6rKl8Bpr8m0Gl8%3Dreserved=0
>>  
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 30, 2019, at 11:35 AM, Denny Page via time-nuts 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Could be. They sell a aluminum mounting rod for use with a magnetic base 
>>> which mates with the unit perfectly, so I sorta assumed it was intentional. 
>>> Tapering helps prevents over tightening / over extension which could damage 
>>> the casing.
>>>
>>> Denny
>>>
>>>
 On Aug 30, 2019, at 10:49, Bryan _  wrote:

 Or a mfg. defect and thus why on the surplus market.

 -=Bryan=-

 
 From: time-nuts  on behalf of Denny Page 
 via time-nuts 
 Sent: August 29, 2019 7:39 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
 
 Cc: Denny Page 
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antennas

 I think several people have run into that issue, including myself. It 
 seems designed for a slightly tapered rod. Easy to fix with the right tool.

 Denny

> On Aug 29, 2019, at 16:41, Ben Hall  wrote:
>
> Only issue with mine was that the thread wasn't fully cut, so I modified 
> an old taper tap to be a bottoming tap with the bench grinder and 
> finished tapping the hole to the bottom.
>>>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Advantages of GNSS ???

[David G. McGaw]

Leo -

I do believe you mean non-monotonic, rather than non-monotonous. Not 
being monotonous is a good thing.  :-)

David N1HAC

On 7/9/19 1:20 PM, Leo Bodnar wrote:
> It's not very good, it is highly non-linear and even worse - nonmonotonous.
> It sometimes produces runt pulse glitches when you roll time backwards.
> I have used them in GPS clocks for many years but never enabled them for end 
> user mode.
> It's really a very primitive delay line series and I don't regret seeing it 
> gone.  On top of this it is Maxim, doh!
> Leo
>
> Chris Caudle wrote:
>> The original is not, there is a close variant still in production:
>>
>> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.maximintegrated.com%2Fen%2Fproducts%2Fanalog%2Fclock-generation-distribution%2FDS1124.htmldata=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C6a86facc79d243f1cd2308d7049fba48%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636982956387678192sdata=TmHZH%2FJQpSatDlFqHcbQp%2BPHrS9CGjFHe5oPNYzHbRQ%3Dreserved=0
>>
>> "The DS1124 is an 8-bit programmable timing element similar in function to
>> the DS1021-25. The 256-delay intervals are programmed by using a 3-wire
>> serial interface. With a 0.25ns step size, the DS1124 can provide a delay
>> time from 20ns up to 84ns with an integral nonlinearity of ±3ns. "
>>
>> Small package, would be a little difficult to prototype by hand, but not
>> impossible.
>>
>> -- 
>> Chris Caudle
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Re: [time-nuts] Garmin 18x GPS WNRO

[David G. McGaw]

I have a number of Garmin GPS-35s and GPS-18s.  In checking before the 
rollover, some had their RTC still running and one had lost the battery 
backup.  The ones with the correct date were OK as-is and the other just 
needed the Nonvolatile Memory updated with the correct date to come back 
into it.  All were fine through the event.  I expected they would be as 
I had brought the GPS-35s through the last rollover.  I like Garmin.  I 
wish Trimble had put this feature in the Thunderbolt.

David N1HAC


On 4/8/19 10:03 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
> Thanks to that Pulsar / Garmin thread some weeks ago I happened to be 
> continuously logging serial/USB NMEA data from a Garmin 18x receiver.
>
> The PGRMF sentence was enabled. This Garmin-unique message reports both UTC 
> date & time as well as GPS week & second. It's a very nice feature. As 
> per-spec, GPS week goes from 0 to 1023 and GPS second goes from 0 to 604799 
> (7 x 86400, a week a seconds).
>
> And it worked perfectly. Here's the log:
>
> $PGRMF,1023,604793,060419,235935,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3663,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*3E
> $PGRMF,1023,604794,060419,235936,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3663,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*3A
> $PGRMF,1023,604795,060419,235937,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3663,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*3A
> $PGRMF,1023,604796,060419,235938,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3664,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*31
> $PGRMF,1023,604797,060419,235939,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3664,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*31
> $PGRMF,1023,604798,060419,235940,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3664,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*30
> $PGRMF,1023,604799,060419,235941,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3664,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*30 
>  //  last second of 2nd GPS epoch
> $PGRMF,0,0,060419,235942,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3664,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*36  //  
> first second of 3rd GPS epoch
> $PGRMF,0,1,060419,235943,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3664,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*36
> $PGRMF,0,2,060419,235944,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*33
> $PGRMF,0,3,060419,235945,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*33
> $PGRMF,0,4,060419,235946,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*37
> $PGRMF,0,5,060419,235947,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*37
> $PGRMF,0,6,060419,235948,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*3B
> $PGRMF,0,7,060419,235949,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*3B
> $PGRMF,0,8,060419,235950,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*3C
> $PGRMF,0,9,060419,235951,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*3C
> $PGRMF,0,10,060419,235952,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*07
> $PGRMF,0,11,060419,235953,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*07
> $PGRMF,0,12,060419,235954,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*03
> $PGRMF,0,13,060419,235955,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*03
> $PGRMF,0,14,060419,235956,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*07
> $PGRMF,0,15,060419,235957,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*07
> $PGRMF,0,16,060419,235958,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*0B
> $PGRMF,0,17,060419,235959,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*0B  //  
> last second of April 6th UTC
> $PGRMF,0,18,070419,00,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*04  //  
> first second of April 7th UTC
> $PGRMF,0,19,070419,01,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*04
> $PGRMF,0,20,070419,02,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*0D
> $PGRMF,0,21,070419,03,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*0D
> $PGRMF,0,22,070419,04,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*09
> $PGRMF,0,23,070419,05,18,4733.2519,N,12208.3665,W,A,2,0,337,2,1*09
>
> You can see the GPS WNRO occur between:
>  1023,604799 and 0,0 GPS time, which is 060419,235941 and 060419,235942 
> UTC time.
>
> And you can see the delta between the GPS timescale and UTC timescale (18 
> leap seconds) at:
> 0,17 and 0,18 GPS time, which is 060419,235959 and 070419,00 UTC time.
>
> Note that GPS WNRO (week number rollover) is unrelated to leap seconds, per 
> se. They are completely separate, though both interesting and awkward 
> disruptions in integer timekeeping.
>
> But because of the sum of leap seconds since GPS time began on 1980-1-6, 
> there is currently an 18 second delta between GPS week rollover and UTC 
> midnight rollover. This is why carefully written technical notes do not say 
> GPS rollover occurs at midnight. Rather, they say it occurs near midnight 
> (UTC). Or it occurred between April 6 and 7, 2019, or slightly vague words to 
> that effect. Lots of words, papers, and all. But the above log shows it 
> nicely.
>
> /tvb
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Misuse of word "decimate" (was Re: Short term 10MHz source)

[David G. McGaw]

In digital filtering, decimation is a reduction of sample rate, 
truncation is a reduction of precision.  Interpolation can refer to 
either of the opposite processes.  The terms downsampling and upsampling 
can be used to avoid confusion with regards to sample rate.  I am trying 
to come up with an adequate term for improving precision.  Averaging is 
one form, but not inclusive.

David N1HAC


On 1/10/19 7:59 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Peter,
>
> While the word derives back to the Roman times, today it is a 
> technical term for data-reduction being used in professional 
> literature, so it's meaning has already been established.
>
> For instance, in modern phase-noise measurement setups the sample-rate 
> is around 100 MS/s, and that sample-rate of multiple ADCs with 
> relatively high amounts of bits is way to high to hand over to 
> software, so it is decimated down in steps in FPGA before handing over 
> to software. Decimation is the term used in that context.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 2019-01-10 13:01, Peter Vince wrote:
>> In his comment below, Mark has used the word "decimate".  There is much
>> debate about what this word means (presently, and/or in the past), but
>> common explanations refer back to Roman times when they apparently 
>> killed
>> one person in ten as a punishment, and similarly "tithes" - or taxes, 
>> where
>> one in ten was taken.  Now OK, you can argue this until the cows come 
>> home,
>> but the result is that the meaning isn't crystal clear, and 
>> particularly on
>> a technical forum where precision is paramount, and the entire reason we
>> are here, I believe accuracy and clarity of expression is also 
>> important.
>> In this instance, I believe "truncate" would be a better word.
>>
>>   :-)
>>
>>   Regards,
>>
>>    Peter Vince
>>
>> On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 23:56, Mark Sims  wrote:
>>> ...
>>> And as far as decimating the TICC output values in firmware... please
>> don't.   Let the user decimate the values if they want to.
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Re: [time-nuts] Short term 10MHz source

[David G. McGaw]

Just inside a window can work for a GPSDO.  One of our labs at Dartmouth 
has metallic-tinted windows, so for that we hang a little puck antenna 
just outside.  Not ideal, but it gets signal.

David


On 1/1/19 11:53 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>> I do realise that the long term stability of the GPSDO is somewhat superior
>> to a Rubidium source. I'm planning on using my TICC to validate both my GPSDO
>> and RFS. I'm aware that such a short "power on" period is somewhat
>> counterproductive but I have no other options. I'd like to know if a 6-8 hour
>> window for the GPSDO is sufficient for use as a 10MHz source for the TICC.
> Try using the Rubidium as the clock source for the TICC and watch the PPS from
> the GPSDO.
>
>
>> I have a situation in which I have access to a GPSDO 10MHz source but for
>> only about 10-12 hours at a time. My current residence does not allow a
>> permanent GPS antenna therefore I am limited in its use.
> Step two would be to see how well your GPSDO works with an internal antenna.
> Sometimes it works with the antenna in a window.  ...
>
>

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Re: [time-nuts] More ES100 WWVB Measurements

[David G. McGaw]

It appears Canada tries to match the US to save confusion.  The US 
changed the dates starting in 2007 (making clocks in earlier systems 
like VCRs obsolete) and Canada followed suit.  Who knows what Congress 
will do in the future (abolish DST?  I hope!), so programming a system 
to be good to 2100 seems optimistic!

David N1HAC


On 1/1/19 5:31 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote:
>> Does anybody know how many other places use the same rules?  What does
> Canada do?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_by_country
>
> --- Graham
>
> ==
>
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 4:05 PM Hal Murray  wrote:
>
>>> GPS has no bits for Daylight Savings.  As far as I know only WWV and WWVB
>>> have those bits. So for a clock displaying local time WWVB is the way to
>> go.
>>
>> WWVB's DST data is targeted at the US.
>>
>> Does anybody know how many other places use the same rules?  What does
>> Canada
>> do?
>>
>> Has anybody looked into how much code it takes to implement DST?  If you
>> are
>> willing to stick to one set of rules, you could pre-compute a small table
>> to
>> cover the next 20 (or 100) years.  That's probably not good enough for a
>> product, but OK for most home brew clocks.  Can I get to 2100 with only 28
>> slots?  (7 for day-of-week, and 4 for leap years)
>>
>> The full Unix time conversion package is pretty big if you are of running
>> it
>> on a tiny SOC.  Has anybody implemented a slimmed down version?  How slim
>> can
>> you get if all you want is DST?
>>
>> Besides, GPS gives you leap second warning.
>>
>> A while ago, somebody asked why use WWVB rather than GPS?  One answer is
>> so we
>> can monitor what it does when a leap second happens.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board

[David G. McGaw]

Maybe the link came through the list OK?


On 12/4/18 11:16 PM, David G. McGaw wrote:
> Sorry about that garbled link.  Blame Dartmouth's over-zealous IT. Just
> look for "rtl-sdr direct sampling mode" at rtl-sdr dot com.
>
>
> On 12/4/18 11:09 PM, David G. McGaw wrote:
>> Actually, an RTL-SDR can because there is direct access to the ADC
>> available by soldering to internal pads:
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.rtl-sdr.com%2Frtl-sdr-direct-sampling-mode%2Fdata=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C60246767b871406285c808d65a68a8a7%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636795802882698879sdata=qu9IZ7jrigjcDqD%2B1d9daSfIHttr3Nn%2Fh0L5mg%2FTsbg%3Dreserved=0
>>   That will give you 8-bit,
>> 14.4Msps.
>>
>> But as has also been said, a good sound card sampling 24 bits at 192kHz
>> can be used.
>>
>> David N1HAC
>>
>>
>> On 12/4/18 6:54 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>>> 
>>> In message <2e7cf0ff-4094-2750-4874-96dfe2efe...@earthlink.net>, jimlux 
>>> writes:
>>>
>>>> I'm going to bet that the 8 bit RTL-SDR isn't going to work on 60kHz.
>>> I don't know about the RTL-SDR, but 8 bits will get you quite far with
>>> slow moving time signals like WWVB because you can average for minutes
>>> if you want - provided you feed the ADC a good stable clock.
>>>
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Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board

[David G. McGaw]

Sorry about that garbled link.  Blame Dartmouth's over-zealous IT. Just 
look for "rtl-sdr direct sampling mode" at rtl-sdr dot com.


On 12/4/18 11:09 PM, David G. McGaw wrote:
> Actually, an RTL-SDR can because there is direct access to the ADC
> available by soldering to internal pads:
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.rtl-sdr.com%2Frtl-sdr-direct-sampling-mode%2Fdata=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C26d18a151e124b336e5008d65a679402%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636795798255645762sdata=k7qbMd66xKxoL28CemtFlw5cbhLHMgU01NZlOnfY7Lw%3Dreserved=0
>   That will give you 8-bit,
> 14.4Msps.
>
> But as has also been said, a good sound card sampling 24 bits at 192kHz
> can be used.
>
> David N1HAC
>
>
> On 12/4/18 6:54 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>> 
>> In message <2e7cf0ff-4094-2750-4874-96dfe2efe...@earthlink.net>, jimlux 
>> writes:
>>
>>> I'm going to bet that the 8 bit RTL-SDR isn't going to work on 60kHz.
>> I don't know about the RTL-SDR, but 8 bits will get you quite far with
>> slow moving time signals like WWVB because you can average for minutes
>> if you want - provided you feed the ADC a good stable clock.
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board

[David G. McGaw]

Any of the RSPs from SDRPlay will cover it and they are great units, 
starting at $109 US.  I am literally using an RSP1A right now.

David N1AHC


On 12/4/18 9:08 PM, W7SLS wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Great discussion on this and other topics here.
>
> Just looked up the specs for the SDRPlay RSP2:
>   1 kHz to 2 GHz.
> Should be fine for 60 kHz.
>
> Now to look closer at previous posts for 60 kHz antennas, how to get raw data 
> out of the RSP2 (other than pretty pictures), and see where it fits on the 
> project list.
>
> Regards,
> Scott W7SLS
>
>
>> On Dec 4, 2018, at 4:04 PM, Iain Young  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 04/12/18 23:08, jimlux wrote:
>>> On 12/4/18 2:52 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
 
 In message <20181204224816.bfef2926d942b52db8061...@kinali.ch>, Attila 
 Kinali writes:

> On Tue, 4 Dec 2018 13:12:48 -0800
> jimlux  wrote:
>
>> I maintain that it's the lack of a cheap RF front end that is the sticky 
>> point.
 Then you have misunderstood how little you actually need.
>>> I should clarify - "cheap *off-the-shelf* catalog RF front end"
>>> In my old codger-ness with limited free time, I'm just not wild about 
>>> wiring up circuits from scratch.  And, I like to see other people duplicate 
>>> what I've done, so I've tended to move towards "I can buy that widget for 
>>> $20-100" kinds of things.
>>> Hence my 4 channel RTL-SDR+beagle phased array.
>>> I'm going to bet that the 8 bit RTL-SDR isn't going to work on 60kHz.
>> Probably not - Even the Funcube dongle down that low doesn't pick up
>> MSF from here in the UK, and at 66kHz I get BBC Radio 4 (198/3=66..)
>>
>> However, my main SDR PC has a 192kHz soundcard. Feed that with my
>> LF active antenna, and MSF, DCF, amongst others come booming in.
>>
>> Don't discount an active antenna plus a soundcard or ADC that will
>> sample 192kHz
>>
>>
>> Iain
>>
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>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board

[David G. McGaw]

Actually, an RTL-SDR can because there is direct access to the ADC 
available by soldering to internal pads: 
www.rtl-sdr.com/rtl-sdr-direct-sampling-mode/  That will give you 8-bit, 
14.4Msps.

But as has also been said, a good sound card sampling 24 bits at 192kHz 
can be used.

David N1HAC


On 12/4/18 6:54 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> 
> In message <2e7cf0ff-4094-2750-4874-96dfe2efe...@earthlink.net>, jimlux 
> writes:
>
>> I'm going to bet that the 8 bit RTL-SDR isn't going to work on 60kHz.
> I don't know about the RTL-SDR, but 8 bits will get you quite far with
> slow moving time signals like WWVB because you can average for minutes
> if you want - provided you feed the ADC a good stable clock.
>

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Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board

[David G. McGaw]

That is the specified jitter.  They have also said in communications that it 
has about 50mS resolution.  That is as close as they are willing to say a 
system can be synchronized with it.  Perhaps someone will discover a clever way 
to enhance that.

BTW, I have been told it has also been successfully tested for lock in Brazil.  
Is there anyone in Australia want to give it a try?  Perth is almost directly 
opposite Fort Collins.  :-)

David N1HAC


On 12/4/18 2:00 PM, Hal Murray wrote:




As was said, IRQ delay is +/-100 mS from the second edge, hardly what a
Time-Nut is looking for.



There is no problem with a delay as long as it is constant.  If I know what it
is, then I can correct for it.

The problem is the noise/jitter on the delay.  I'm sure somebody will have
data soon.




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Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board

[David G. McGaw]

As was said, IRQ delay is +/-100 mS from the second edge, hardly what a 
Time-Nut is looking for.

David


On 12/4/18 1:07 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>> The one thing I wish is that there were access to the synchronized  analog
>> signal and/or a 1PPS.  Even a top of the minute would be useful.   It only
>> has the I2C digital interface.
> It also has an IRQ signal.
>
> The data sheet said it's 100 ms after the second, but I didn't see any
> accuracy info but I didn't look carefully.
>
>

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Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board

[David G. McGaw]

It does a very good job of pulling the signal out of the noise.  It 
works in NH, traditionally a fringe region, in all but the most shielded 
of rooms.  I also had occasion to test it for Everset in Kangerlussuaq, 
Greenland.  I found it had no trouble acquiring at any time of the day.  
If the ES100 does not do well enough for you, there is supposedly an 
ES200 available that uses a longer sequence for even more sensitivity.

The one thing I wish is that there were access to the synchronized 
analog signal and/or a 1PPS.  Even a top of the minute would be useful.  
It only has the I2C digital interface.

73,

David N1HAC


On 12/4/18 11:35 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> Thanks for the heads up Tom! I ordered one and if it comes before the end
> of the year I may have some time over the holidays to do acquisition test
> from Maryland and maybe some cross-comparison with GPS PPS.
>
> Here in Maryland I have somewhat unreliable reception on commercial
> non-BPSK WWVB clocks at my house. My Casio Waveceptor watch is 99%+
> reliable when I'm asleep on the 2nd floor but much less likely to work in
> the basement. I can reliably hear the amplitude-keyed WWVB carrier on a LF
> receiver with a homebrew loop (about 3 foot by 3 foot) in the evenings but
> it takes some imagination to think I can hear it during the daytime.
>
> Tim N3QE
>
> On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 9:12 PM Tom Van Baak  wrote:
>
>> At long last, a complete WWVB 60 kHz BPSK dev board is available:
>>
>>
>> https://universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-cob-wwvb-60khz-bpsk-receiver-kit-with-2-antennas/
>>
>> Note it includes the antenna(s). Also has links to documentation.
>>
>> It would be very nice if a bunch of time nuts around the country played
>> with these and reported results.
>>
>> Prior to this, the only device that you could buy which used the enhanced
>> WWVB format was the La Crosse 404-1235UA-SS UltrAtomic clock. It was not
>> developer friendly, so a dev board with the Everset ES100 chip is good news.
>>
>> The maker / hacker / Arduino crowd may enjoy a fresh source of accurate
>> time; something independent of GPS or NTP. Some technical postings about
>> reception quality, acquisition speed, and timing precision would be most
>> welcome.
>>
>> /tvb
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] A silly question ...

[David G. McGaw]

Correct.

David N1HAC


On 9/27/18 12:55 PM, Dave B via time-nuts wrote:
> ... Because I'm sure I should be able to figure this out for myself!
>
> I have (as many of you do also) one of the venerable Trimble Thunderbolt
> devices.  No problem with that.  All works fine, and is run 24/7, UPS
> backup power and all...
>
> I also have (again, as many of you do...) a free running OCXO for 10MHz
> used for "other" stuff etc.   Also left running for long periods, but
> only when I want to experiment with other stuff and don't want to
> disturb what the TB is keeping sane..
>
> Triggering a dual beam 'scope (Tek 465) from the TB on Ch1, and having
> the output of the OCXO on Ch2, the resulting display on Ch2 of course
> drifts in relation to the static waveform on Ch1.  (Both nice sinusoids.)
>
> If I time how long it takes for the OCXO to drift through one full cycle
> (co-incidence to co-incidence) relative to the TB on Ch1, how exactly do
> I turn that time, and knowing the base frequency of the TB at 10MHz,
> into a ppm discrepancy?
>
> "I think", that if for example, it takes 1 second to drift one cycle,
> that works out at 0.1 ppm.   If it takes 2 seconds, it's 0.05 ppm, if it
> takes 5 seconds, it's 0.02 ppm etc.   Is that correct?
>
> If not, please feel free to educate me!
>
> As I said, a silly question that I'm sure I would have answered myself a
> few decades ago, but age and medication etc...
>
> Interestingly, after "a lot" of googling, I see that anything like this
> using "analogue" or "CRT" scopes, has fallen off the radar and the
> interweb, and some of the practices using digital oscilloscopes seem to
> rely on the instrument itself to make the measurement, rather than from
> "observation" and common sense.  (That I seem to lack at times too!)
>
> But I did get diverted into reading up on some of the early history of
> CRO's.
>
> Regards to All.
>
> Dave B.
>

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Re: [time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion

[David G. McGaw]

I consider saving WWV/WWVH/WWVB to be ON topic.  They may not be as 
precise as some on this list like to achieve, but they are publicly 
available methods of time dissemination.  I am very concerned that 
factions of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their 
mission.


David N1HAC


On 9/1/18 9:07 AM, David C. Partridge wrote:

Guys,

The noise level has risen rather high lately.  I really think that
discussions of jamming of GPS and other systems are not relevant.

The loss of WWVx is also mostly OT as I don't believe that anyone seriously
still uses it for a time/frequency reference these days.

Dave




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Re: [time-nuts] Petition to Maintain WWV, WWVH, WWVB

[David G. McGaw]

Unfortunately, this one is inaccurate.  It talks of impact to radio 
controlled "Atomic Clocks", but does not mention WWVB, only WWV and WWVH.


David N1HAC


On 8/24/18 3:51 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote:

There seem to be 2 :
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.whitehouse.gov%2Fpetition%2Fproposed-shutdown-nists-wwv-and-wwvh-radio-stationsdata=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C0c61d47319544b857aa308d609fb3021%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636707371787981639sdata=cCCOJNFsyVmY%2FHpNHv0UPsTbp%2BilNmDKGqNezeKxO3Y%3Dreserved=0

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 8:44 PM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:


Is there more of it?   What I see makes no reference to WWVB.

Dana


On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 1:10 PM Graham / KE9H 
wrote:


Here is the URL of a petition to maintain funding of WWV, WWVH, WWVB.

Only currently at about 7 percent of the number required for a response
from White House.


https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.whitehouse.gov%2Fpetition%2Fmaintain-funding-data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C0c61d47319544b857aa308d609fb3021%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636707371787991653sdata=p0qo5maxDoRVFnDkMkLiFFvbr2w2JUURRPi1LVJISt0%3Dreserved=0

nist-stations-wwv-wwvh

--- Graham

==
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