Re: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[Bill S]

Thanks everyone for the prompt and numerous responses. It was really an 
academic question. He was curious what the division was for 4.194304 MHz 
to get it to 1pps.


Bill

 




On 9/11/2020 5:50 PM, paul swed wrote:

I went looking for the clock and found nothing. But like the rest
discovered the divider ratio to 1Hz. But does the conversation stop at that
point? Since Bill said the motor was 4 pole wouldn't there be 1 more
divider to .5 Hz with the Q and /Q essentially across the coil. Add
protection diodes and such.
It  looks like the Omega timepieces were quite nice.
regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 3:59 PM Graham / KE9H  wrote:


2^22 = 4,194,304
So divide by two, 22 times in a row to get to 1 Hz.
--- Graham


On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM Bill S  wrote:


A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was
probably made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at
approximately 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of
dividers they used to run the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds.
Anybody know?

Thanks,

Bill_S

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Re: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[paul swed]

Hi Tom
But Bill called out a 4 pole motor. Most of what I have seen are simple
single coil clocks.
Wondering how his comment changes the discussion.
But Bill actually didn't ask for a driver circuit just the divider ratio.
Regards
Paul

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:43 PM Tom Van Baak  wrote:

> Paul,
>
> I'll open the Omega Quartz Chronometer and trace the circuit if you're
> curious. Many of these 70's stepper / analog clocks used Patek Philippe
> movements, the classic one you see in vintage Austron, Tracor, Sulzer,
> and, of course, hp time / frequency standards with the /001 clock option
> (e.g., 5061A, 5065A).
>
> Yes, the drive circuit for the hp 5065A analog clock has a final
> flip-flop on the A16 board:
>
> http://leapsecond.com/museum/patek/hp5065A-A16-Patek.jpg
>
> The 5065A manual says: "1 PPS drive pulses connect from A5 Digital
> Divider through J1 to IC1 of the clock movement amplifier.
>   IC1 provides flip-flop action and furnishes a push-pull output to
> clock amplifiers Q11 and Q12. The push-pull output of power amplifiers
> Q11 and [Q?] A12 connects to the front panel clock and is limited to 10
> V peak by zener diodes CR13 and CR14."
>
> More eye candy:
>
> http://leapsecond.com/museum/patek/
>
> /tvb
>
>
> On 9/11/2020 2:50 PM, paul swed wrote:
> > I went looking for the clock and found nothing. But like the rest
> > discovered the divider ratio to 1Hz. But does the conversation stop at
> that
> > point? Since Bill said the motor was 4 pole wouldn't there be 1 more
> > divider to .5 Hz with the Q and /Q essentially across the coil. Add
> > protection diodes and such.
> > It  looks like the Omega timepieces were quite nice.
> > regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 3:59 PM Graham / KE9H 
> wrote:
> >
> >> 2^22 = 4,194,304
> >> So divide by two, 22 times in a row to get to 1 Hz.
> >> --- Graham
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM Bill S  wrote:
> >>
> >>> A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was
> >>> probably made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at
> >>> approximately 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of
> >>> dividers they used to run the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds.
> >>> Anybody know?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Bill_S
> >>>
> >>> ___
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> >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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> >>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[Tom Van Baak]

Paul,

I'll open the Omega Quartz Chronometer and trace the circuit if you're 
curious. Many of these 70's stepper / analog clocks used Patek Philippe 
movements, the classic one you see in vintage Austron, Tracor, Sulzer, 
and, of course, hp time / frequency standards with the /001 clock option 
(e.g., 5061A, 5065A).


Yes, the drive circuit for the hp 5065A analog clock has a final 
flip-flop on the A16 board:


http://leapsecond.com/museum/patek/hp5065A-A16-Patek.jpg

The 5065A manual says: "1 PPS drive pulses connect from A5 Digital 
Divider through J1 to IC1 of the clock movement amplifier.
 IC1 provides flip-flop action and furnishes a push-pull output to 
clock amplifiers Q11 and Q12. The push-pull output of power amplifiers 
Q11 and [Q?] A12 connects to the front panel clock and is limited to 10 
V peak by zener diodes CR13 and CR14."


More eye candy:

http://leapsecond.com/museum/patek/

/tvb


On 9/11/2020 2:50 PM, paul swed wrote:

I went looking for the clock and found nothing. But like the rest
discovered the divider ratio to 1Hz. But does the conversation stop at that
point? Since Bill said the motor was 4 pole wouldn't there be 1 more
divider to .5 Hz with the Q and /Q essentially across the coil. Add
protection diodes and such.
It  looks like the Omega timepieces were quite nice.
regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 3:59 PM Graham / KE9H  wrote:


2^22 = 4,194,304
So divide by two, 22 times in a row to get to 1 Hz.
--- Graham


On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM Bill S  wrote:


A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was
probably made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at
approximately 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of
dividers they used to run the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds.
Anybody know?

Thanks,

Bill_S

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Re: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

If it was a custom chip, then the motor driver “stuff” would be integrated into 
the
IC. That was indeed the case back in the 1970’s when I was designing this sort 
of thing. Those chips were pretty hard to dig up, even back then. Unless you 
wanted
to buy >10K pcs a month, they really didn’t want to talk to you …. In our case 
that 
was true even though a sister division made the chips !!!

===

Four pole stepper pulse sequences are pretty well defined. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNyAcAHLET8=desktop 


(just the first hit on a search, there are *lots* of other references ….)

Indeed there is some variation depending on just how the coils are wound. The 
basic pulse sequence is still the same. 

Bob

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 4:53 PM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:
> 
> It may be that he's looking for info on how to drive the stepper motor(s),
> such as
> pulse sequences etc.
> 
> Dana
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:59 PM Graham / KE9H  wrote:
> 
>> 2^22 = 4,194,304
>> So divide by two, 22 times in a row to get to 1 Hz.
>> --- Graham
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM Bill S  wrote:
>> 
>>> A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was
>>> probably made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at
>>> approximately 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of
>>> dividers they used to run the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds.
>>> Anybody know?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Bill_S
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[Dana Whitlow]

It may be that he's looking for info on how to drive the stepper motor(s),
such as
pulse sequences etc.

Dana


On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:59 PM Graham / KE9H  wrote:

> 2^22 = 4,194,304
> So divide by two, 22 times in a row to get to 1 Hz.
> --- Graham
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM Bill S  wrote:
>
> > A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was
> > probably made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at
> > approximately 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of
> > dividers they used to run the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds.
> > Anybody know?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Bill_S
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[paul swed]

I went looking for the clock and found nothing. But like the rest
discovered the divider ratio to 1Hz. But does the conversation stop at that
point? Since Bill said the motor was 4 pole wouldn't there be 1 more
divider to .5 Hz with the Q and /Q essentially across the coil. Add
protection diodes and such.
It  looks like the Omega timepieces were quite nice.
regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 3:59 PM Graham / KE9H  wrote:

> 2^22 = 4,194,304
> So divide by two, 22 times in a row to get to 1 Hz.
> --- Graham
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM Bill S  wrote:
>
> > A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was
> > probably made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at
> > approximately 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of
> > dividers they used to run the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds.
> > Anybody know?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Bill_S
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> ___
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> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[Graham / KE9H]

2^22 = 4,194,304
So divide by two, 22 times in a row to get to 1 Hz.
--- Graham


On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM Bill S  wrote:

> A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was
> probably made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at
> approximately 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of
> dividers they used to run the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds.
> Anybody know?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill_S
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[djl]

Isn't the 4 MHz crystal near the sweet spot for one of the cuts? A dim 
memory at best :-)

DJ

On 2020-09-11 11:57, Tom Van Baak wrote:

Bill,

4194304 Hz = 2^22 Hz so 22 flip-flops gets you down to 1 Hz. The
binary divider is s similar to how the Seiko Beta 21 was designed. See
[1] for an example of a clock that uses this frequency.

What's nice about the Omega Ships Chronometer shown there is that it
has a LEMO 1PPS output so one can make precise measurements of the
clock without opening it and without resorting to audio, optical,
vibration, or magnetic methods. I have one here if you have any
questions about construction, repair, or performance (measured against
GPS).

/tvb

[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Marine_Chronometer#4.19_MHz_Ships_Marine_Chronometer


On 9/11/2020 10:30 AM, Bill S wrote:
A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was 
probably made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at 
approximately 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of 
dividers they used to run the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds. 
Anybody know?


Thanks,

Bill_S

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--
Dr. Don Latham  AJ7LL
PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
VOX: 406-626-4304


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Re: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[Robert LaJeunesse]

That was the same frequency Chrysler used in their early (70s) quartz car 
"chronometers". The 1981 Chrysler Imperial electronic dashboard used that 
frequency as well.

Bob L.

> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2020 at 1:30 PM
> From: "Bill S" 
> To: "time-nuts@lists.febo.com" 
> Subject: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers
>
> A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was
> probably made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at
> approximately 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of
> dividers they used to run the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds.
> Anybody know?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill_S


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Re: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[djl]

HINT: 2^22 = 4194304


On 2020-09-11 11:30, Bill S wrote:

A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was
probably made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at
approximately 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of
dividers they used to run the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds.
Anybody know?

Thanks,

Bill_S

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--
Dr. Don Latham  AJ7LL
PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
VOX: 406-626-4304


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Re: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[Tom Van Baak]

Bill,

4194304 Hz = 2^22 Hz so 22 flip-flops gets you down to 1 Hz. The binary 
divider is s similar to how the Seiko Beta 21 was designed. See [1] for 
an example of a clock that uses this frequency.


What's nice about the Omega Ships Chronometer shown there is that it has 
a LEMO 1PPS output so one can make precise measurements of the clock 
without opening it and without resorting to audio, optical, vibration, 
or magnetic methods. I have one here if you have any questions about 
construction, repair, or performance (measured against GPS).


/tvb

[1] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Marine_Chronometer#4.19_MHz_Ships_Marine_Chronometer



On 9/11/2020 10:30 AM, Bill S wrote:
A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was 
probably made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at 
approximately 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of 
dividers they used to run the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds. 
Anybody know?


Thanks,

Bill_S

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Re: [time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Well …. 4.19304 = 2^22

I’d bet they used a bunch of divide by 2 ( or 2^N ) parts. :)

At some point they went from electronic division to driving gears. Is that what 
he’s looking for? 
or is he after the brand / model of divider chip? It’s quite possible that they 
used a custom part,
even back then. 

Bob

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 1:30 PM, Bill S  wrote:
> 
> A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was probably 
> made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at approximately 
> 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of dividers they used to run 
> the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds. Anybody know?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bill_S
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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[time-nuts] Chelsea Chronoquartz dividers

[Bill S]

A friend has acquired a Chelsea Clock Company Chronoquartz which was 
probably made in the 70's. He has measured the oscillator frequency at 
approximately 4.194304 MHz. He wanted to know what arrangement of 
dividers they used to run the 4 pole stepper motor to step seconds. 
Anybody know?


Thanks,

Bill_S

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