Re: [time-nuts] Dead 5061B
Hi I want to inform you that my FE-5440a now works fine. After a lot of reverse engineering i found that there was a parasitic oscillation of about 500 Khz !!! in the integrator amplifier ic (lm108). I replace the ic with an other ( the same type but 7 years earlier production !) and now the accuracy is in the range of 1E-11. Now i have to play with c-field adjustment to achieve better precision. Regards Emmanouil Mantzaras -- Original Message -- Received: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 06:40:24 AM EET From: paul swed To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Dead 5061B Jim Is there any hope. I would believe so. CS tubes are pretty tough. As Scott says HV supplies but you measured those and they appear good as you say. So its a knock down drag out battle. You have nothing to loose so dig in. I wonder if the SRD may have popped. But its funny the ion pump is 0. That seems a bit odd. always a bit of crud in the tube that should make that kick up. My 10 cents. Regards Paul. On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 3:45 PM Scott McGrath wrote: > Have you checked the HV supplies? > > Content by Scott > Typos by Siri > > > On Nov 3, 2019, at 2:04 PM, AC0XU (Jim) > wrote: > > > > Time Nuts- > > This 5061B was working fine until a recent power failure, after which the > unit would not come on line (alarm light stayed lit). > > Major symptoms now: > > Beam I ; Second Harmonic; Ion Pump Supply are all 0 on front panel. All > other front panel readings are normal. (except for battery, which th unit > doe snot have). > > L4P2 signal is 16.832 MHz 1.7 V p-p (perfect - suggesting that A1 > synthesizer is fine) > > Going through 5-173 A12 Cesium Beam Tube Operational Checks: > > 5-175 Low Frequency Coil Check. Everything is fine except that tweaking > the external oscillator frequence/amplitude has no effect. Beam I is always > 0. > > The text says "If the beam current is not restored, it indicates a problem > in the the cesium beam tube power supplies (A11, A15, A18, or A19) or in > the cesium beam tube itself. > > A11 = Cesium Oven Controller - front panel reading is fine. Removed A11 > from the chassis and made the tests in 5-141. > Everything fine. +- 16V and -10V all fine; Cs oven voltage fine; the > thermistor tests out at 435 ohm vs. the 430 ohm on the label. > > A15 = Power Regulator Board - main +18.65V is fine > > A18 = +3.5KV supply - measured and is fine > > A19 = -2.5KV supply - measured and is fine > > I am inclined to conclude that the tube is dead. I don't understand why > that occurred suddenly in conjunction with a line power failure. > > Can I have any hope that the tube is still o.k.? Any ideas? > > Thanks! > > Jim > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dead 5061B
Its a hot wire ionizer (I know thats the name.) so its a heater more then a cathode. But in reality its goal is to filter CS atoms. That is it directs one state of the CS stream that did not flip from the microwave interaction to the getter and the other that did to the collector and detector. increasing the signal to noise ratio for the detector. Not clear that all CS tubes have collectors. Regards paul WB8TSL On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 9:09 PM jimlux wrote: > On 11/8/19 2:25 PM, paul swed wrote: > > Hello to the group. > > A few years back Skip took apart a 5061 CS tube. Took the best pictures > > with detail that has ever been posted. I really learned about the > internal > > details from his effort. > > Tom kindly found the links re-posted here. > > > > > http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2016-October/083806.html > > > > The entire thread is interesting: > > > > > http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2016-October/date.html#end > > > > In a off thread email we discussed the possibility of reattaching the > > ionizer. Please look at the ionizer picture and you will see why that > will > > not work. Unlike a classic light bulb with tight coils of filament and > > droop for expansion and contraction the ionizer is a straight tight > ribbon. > > When it pops material gets vaporized or simply falls away. There is no > > material to by chance reattach. > > > > Granted there is nothing to lose by tinkering around its dead and in > > reality thats what a Time-nut does. > > > > The very best of luck to you Jim and though your CS may be dead its been > > great to read others help and guidance. > > > > Totally ignorant of how these things work inside, but is the "ionizer" > just a heater, or is it more like the cathode of a vacuum tube? > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Dead 5061B
Jim, The filament is a hot wire ionizer that functions to ionize the atoms in the beam so that the mass spectrometer will be able to steer them to the electron multiplier. It is a thin ribbon and not likely to be reattached once it burns open. Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dead 5061B
On 11/8/19 2:25 PM, paul swed wrote: Hello to the group. A few years back Skip took apart a 5061 CS tube. Took the best pictures with detail that has ever been posted. I really learned about the internal details from his effort. Tom kindly found the links re-posted here. http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2016-October/083806.html The entire thread is interesting: http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2016-October/date.html#end In a off thread email we discussed the possibility of reattaching the ionizer. Please look at the ionizer picture and you will see why that will not work. Unlike a classic light bulb with tight coils of filament and droop for expansion and contraction the ionizer is a straight tight ribbon. When it pops material gets vaporized or simply falls away. There is no material to by chance reattach. Granted there is nothing to lose by tinkering around its dead and in reality thats what a Time-nut does. The very best of luck to you Jim and though your CS may be dead its been great to read others help and guidance. Totally ignorant of how these things work inside, but is the "ionizer" just a heater, or is it more like the cathode of a vacuum tube? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dead 5061B
Hello to the group. A few years back Skip took apart a 5061 CS tube. Took the best pictures with detail that has ever been posted. I really learned about the internal details from his effort. Tom kindly found the links re-posted here. http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2016-October/083806.html The entire thread is interesting: http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2016-October/date.html#end In a off thread email we discussed the possibility of reattaching the ionizer. Please look at the ionizer picture and you will see why that will not work. Unlike a classic light bulb with tight coils of filament and droop for expansion and contraction the ionizer is a straight tight ribbon. When it pops material gets vaporized or simply falls away. There is no material to by chance reattach. Granted there is nothing to lose by tinkering around its dead and in reality thats what a Time-nut does. The very best of luck to you Jim and though your CS may be dead its been great to read others help and guidance. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 9:51 PM AC0XU (Jim) wrote: > Time Nuts- > > Thanks to John, Corby, Skip and anyone else I missed who offered help. > > John got it in one. The hot wire ionizer is open, as measured at the D > connector coming out of the tube. I understand that this is a terminal > condition. Too bad for me. > > BTW, I found this note on antiqueradios.com: > > > There is a procedure for broken filaments also. The success rate of > welding a filament is very low in my experience but has extended the life > of a few expensive tubes for me. You apply high voltage to the filament > pins and tap the tube to try to make the broken ends touch. If all works > well, the filament fuses on contact and continuity is restored. I use a > charged capacitor as the voltage source since it will discharge immediately > so it will not burn the filament out again. > It's pretty much the same procedure I use to restore open audio > transformers for my 20's battery sets. I have over a 50% success rate with > my audio transformers so far. > > > Has this ever been tried on a cesium tube? > > Jim > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dead 5061B
Yes it’s terminal sorry On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:05 AM ed breya wrote: > Yes, I've heard of this method before. It may help to study the internal > structure of the filament and its support, and orient the tube to get > some gravity assistance while trying the procedure. I recall that > someone here put up a nice pictorial of the innards of a shot, dissected > Cs beam tube a couple of years ago, that may be a good reference. Good > luck. > > Ed > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dead 5061B
Yes, I've heard of this method before. It may help to study the internal structure of the filament and its support, and orient the tube to get some gravity assistance while trying the procedure. I recall that someone here put up a nice pictorial of the innards of a shot, dissected Cs beam tube a couple of years ago, that may be a good reference. Good luck. Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Dead 5061B
Time Nuts- Thanks to John, Corby, Skip and anyone else I missed who offered help. John got it in one. The hot wire ionizer is open, as measured at the D connector coming out of the tube. I understand that this is a terminal condition. Too bad for me. BTW, I found this note on antiqueradios.com: There is a procedure for broken filaments also. The success rate of welding a filament is very low in my experience but has extended the life of a few expensive tubes for me. You apply high voltage to the filament pins and tap the tube to try to make the broken ends touch. If all works well, the filament fuses on contact and continuity is restored. I use a charged capacitor as the voltage source since it will discharge immediately so it will not burn the filament out again. It's pretty much the same procedure I use to restore open audio transformers for my 20's battery sets. I have over a 50% success rate with my audio transformers so far. Has this ever been tried on a cesium tube? Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dead 5061B
I would look at ionizer and Ionizer circuit. In the past I would see ion current increase when ionizer turned on. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/3/2019 11:40:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, paulsw...@gmail.com writes: Jim Is there any hope. I would believe so. CS tubes are pretty tough. As Scott says HV supplies but you measured those and they appear good as you say. So its a knock down drag out battle. You have nothing to loose so dig in. I wonder if the SRD may have popped. But its funny the ion pump is 0. That seems a bit odd. always a bit of crud in the tube that should make that kick up. My 10 cents. Regards Paul. On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 3:45 PM Scott McGrath wrote: > Have you checked the HV supplies? > > Content by Scott > Typos by Siri > > > On Nov 3, 2019, at 2:04 PM, AC0XU (Jim) > wrote: > > > > Time Nuts- > > This 5061B was working fine until a recent power failure, after which the > unit would not come on line (alarm light stayed lit). > > Major symptoms now: > > Beam I ; Second Harmonic; Ion Pump Supply are all 0 on front panel. All > other front panel readings are normal. (except for battery, which th unit > doe snot have). > > L4P2 signal is 16.832 MHz 1.7 V p-p (perfect - suggesting that A1 > synthesizer is fine) > > Going through 5-173 A12 Cesium Beam Tube Operational Checks: > > 5-175 Low Frequency Coil Check. Everything is fine except that tweaking > the external oscillator frequence/amplitude has no effect. Beam I is always > 0. > > The text says "If the beam current is not restored, it indicates a problem > in the the cesium beam tube power supplies (A11, A15, A18, or A19) or in > the cesium beam tube itself. > > A11 = Cesium Oven Controller - front panel reading is fine. Removed A11 > from the chassis and made the tests in 5-141. > Everything fine. +- 16V and -10V all fine; Cs oven voltage fine; the > thermistor tests out at 435 ohm vs. the 430 ohm on the label. > > A15 = Power Regulator Board - main +18.65V is fine > > A18 = +3.5KV supply - measured and is fine > > A19 = -2.5KV supply - measured and is fine > > I am inclined to conclude that the tube is dead. I don't understand why > that occurred suddenly in conjunction with a line power failure. > > Can I have any hope that the tube is still o.k.? Any ideas? > > Thanks! > > Jim > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dead 5061B
I had a 5061A that had those symptoms. It had been running in Cs off mode for a long time and the Ion Pump current looked like zero on casual inspection but was actually barely perceptibly just off the zero mark. I took that to mean that the ion pump had kept the vacuum in the tube very well. The fault turned out to be no voltage at pin 4 of the 3500V supply A18 due to failure of the internal 100 Meg resistor. That resistor forms part of a voltage divider from the +3500 that provides a "+3500 supply good" signal to the rest of the system. If you can't find a replacement A18 you can repair it but it's a bit of a job. You need to unsolder the base from the case and then the layout is obvious. There's a soldered-over cap on the bottom of the unit that I assume covers a hole used to fill it with nitrogen or some other inert gas. Good luck! Morris > Is there any hope. I would believe so. CS tubes are pretty tough. As Scott > says HV supplies but you measured those and they appear good as you say. So > its a knock down drag out battle. You have nothing to loose so dig in. > I wonder if the SRD may have popped. But its funny the ion pump is 0. That > seems a bit odd. always a bit of crud in the tube that should make that >kick up. My 10 cents. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dead 5061B
> This 5061B was working fine until a recent power failure, after which the unit > would not come on line (alarm light stayed lit). > > Major symptoms now... Have you checked the continuity of the hot-wire ionizer? It may have opened up like a light bulb filament when the power came back on. -- john ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dead 5061B
Jim Is there any hope. I would believe so. CS tubes are pretty tough. As Scott says HV supplies but you measured those and they appear good as you say. So its a knock down drag out battle. You have nothing to loose so dig in. I wonder if the SRD may have popped. But its funny the ion pump is 0. That seems a bit odd. always a bit of crud in the tube that should make that kick up. My 10 cents. Regards Paul. On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 3:45 PM Scott McGrath wrote: > Have you checked the HV supplies? > > Content by Scott > Typos by Siri > > > On Nov 3, 2019, at 2:04 PM, AC0XU (Jim) > wrote: > > > > Time Nuts- > > This 5061B was working fine until a recent power failure, after which the > unit would not come on line (alarm light stayed lit). > > Major symptoms now: > > Beam I ; Second Harmonic; Ion Pump Supply are all 0 on front panel. All > other front panel readings are normal. (except for battery, which th unit > doe snot have). > > L4P2 signal is 16.832 MHz 1.7 V p-p (perfect - suggesting that A1 > synthesizer is fine) > > Going through 5-173 A12 Cesium Beam Tube Operational Checks: > > 5-175 Low Frequency Coil Check. Everything is fine except that tweaking > the external oscillator frequence/amplitude has no effect. Beam I is always > 0. > > The text says "If the beam current is not restored, it indicates a problem > in the the cesium beam tube power supplies (A11, A15, A18, or A19) or in > the cesium beam tube itself. > > A11 = Cesium Oven Controller - front panel reading is fine. Removed A11 > from the chassis and made the tests in 5-141. > Everything fine. +- 16V and -10V all fine; Cs oven voltage fine; the > thermistor tests out at 435 ohm vs. the 430 ohm on the label. > > A15 = Power Regulator Board - main +18.65V is fine > > A18 = +3.5KV supply - measured and is fine > > A19 = -2.5KV supply - measured and is fine > > I am inclined to conclude that the tube is dead. I don't understand why > that occurred suddenly in conjunction with a line power failure. > > Can I have any hope that the tube is still o.k.? Any ideas? > > Thanks! > > Jim > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dead 5061B
Have you checked the HV supplies? Content by Scott Typos by Siri > On Nov 3, 2019, at 2:04 PM, AC0XU (Jim) wrote: > Time Nuts- This 5061B was working fine until a recent power failure, after which the unit would not come on line (alarm light stayed lit). Major symptoms now: Beam I ; Second Harmonic; Ion Pump Supply are all 0 on front panel. All other front panel readings are normal. (except for battery, which th unit doe snot have). L4P2 signal is 16.832 MHz 1.7 V p-p (perfect - suggesting that A1 synthesizer is fine) Going through 5-173 A12 Cesium Beam Tube Operational Checks: 5-175 Low Frequency Coil Check. Everything is fine except that tweaking the external oscillator frequence/amplitude has no effect. Beam I is always 0. The text says "If the beam current is not restored, it indicates a problem in the the cesium beam tube power supplies (A11, A15, A18, or A19) or in the cesium beam tube itself. A11 = Cesium Oven Controller - front panel reading is fine. Removed A11 from the chassis and made the tests in 5-141. Everything fine. +- 16V and -10V all fine; Cs oven voltage fine; the thermistor tests out at 435 ohm vs. the 430 ohm on the label. A15 = Power Regulator Board - main +18.65V is fine A18 = +3.5KV supply - measured and is fine A19 = -2.5KV supply - measured and is fine I am inclined to conclude that the tube is dead. I don't understand why that occurred suddenly in conjunction with a line power failure. Can I have any hope that the tube is still o.k.? Any ideas? Thanks! Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Dead 5061B
Time Nuts- This 5061B was working fine until a recent power failure, after which the unit would not come on line (alarm light stayed lit). Major symptoms now: Beam I ; Second Harmonic; Ion Pump Supply are all 0 on front panel. All other front panel readings are normal. (except for battery, which th unit doe snot have). L4P2 signal is 16.832 MHz 1.7 V p-p (perfect - suggesting that A1 synthesizer is fine) Going through 5-173 A12 Cesium Beam Tube Operational Checks: 5-175 Low Frequency Coil Check. Everything is fine except that tweaking the external oscillator frequence/amplitude has no effect. Beam I is always 0. The text says "If the beam current is not restored, it indicates a problem in the the cesium beam tube power supplies (A11, A15, A18, or A19) or in the cesium beam tube itself. A11 = Cesium Oven Controller - front panel reading is fine. Removed A11 from the chassis and made the tests in 5-141. Everything fine. +- 16V and -10V all fine; Cs oven voltage fine; the thermistor tests out at 435 ohm vs. the 430 ohm on the label. A15 = Power Regulator Board - main +18.65V is fine A18 = +3.5KV supply - measured and is fine A19 = -2.5KV supply - measured and is fine I am inclined to conclude that the tube is dead. I don't understand why that occurred suddenly in conjunction with a line power failure. Can I have any hope that the tube is still o.k.? Any ideas? Thanks! Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
