subject:"Re\: \[time\-nuts\] Rooftop antenna and splitter"

Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-05-01 Thread Achim Gratz

Denny Page via time-nuts writes:
> No, no ground plane. Don’t really have a lot of room for that in the
> window. Out of curiosity, how large of an impact have you found with a
> ground plane?

As long as we're talking ceramic patch (puck) antennas, I've seen around
15dB improvement repeatedly (as reported by the receiver statistics)
with otherwise non-optimal placement of the antenna (indoors, viewing
the sky through a wooden roof covered with rolled roofing).  

As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the better antennas come with
their own (optimized) ground plane if they need one.  Good luck finding
data sheets for the puck antennas, but if you do get hold of one,
sometimes they do show how the directivity changes with different sized
ground planes.  If you have a magnetic puck you best use a magnetic
steel surface, the cap of a large diameter can works quite well also.
Otherwise aluminum foil is just as effective and easily cut or folded
away if you want to try to exclude reflections.

With multiple active patch antennas going to different receivers, I've
found that at least the antennas I have do not like to be placed very
close to each other.  Spacing them at least half a wavelength from each
other seems to take care of that.  If the backside shield of the active
patch antenna is connected to ground, then the ground plane must be
isolated from all (but possibly one) antenna; otherwise the resulting
ground loop will degrade reception.

Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Samples for the Waldorf Blofeld:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#BlofeldSamplesExtra

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-30 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

For a variety of reasons, a puck antenna is a bad choice for a lab timing 
receiver. 
Because the ground plane (and other issues like feed line) are a variable, 
getting a 
good pattern is a matter of luck. Multipath ( = low angle) rejection is rarely 
going to 
work well with them. They also are not really good at standing up to years and 
years
of exposure outdoors. 

Since “real” antennas are a sub $20 sort of thing at L1 and sub $70 at L1/L2 … 
why 
bother with the minor leagues? Get something that does the job properly and use 
that. 

No matter what you do, (survey or timing) multipath is what gets you. Rejecting 
it 
is what you design the antenna for. Stuff that is properly polarized, you keep. 
Stuff
that is not properly polarized you strongly reject. Very low angle stuff 
(especially below
zero degrees) you strongly reject. Your typical ground plane acts as a knife 
edge at low 
angles to “help” below zero degree stuff …. not good. 

Indeed some light weight antennas take off into spurious oscillation land under 
this or 
that condition. When they do nothing works well. The answer there is to get 
another 
antenna. We’re talking the price of a case of beer ….

Bob

> On Apr 30, 2019, at 6:52 PM, Taka Kamiya  wrote:
> 
> Yes, I saw your particular mention of survey antennas.  My concern was that 
> multi-path will affect any setup.  
> 
> I've seen pros and cons of placing a cookie sheets and pizza pans under 
> antennas to enhance "efficiency".  I'm not exactly buying into this idea but 
> I thought your discussions were similar.
> 
> I have two identical antennas and one is already installed in a manner I 
> described.  I suppose I could purchase a pole and mount it all by itself in 
> middle of my yard.  Comparison will be very interesting.
> 
> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> --- 
> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> I'm stuck in a wormhole  Hello, worms!
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 6:28:11 PM EDT, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> The pictures shown earlier are of a “survey antenna”. In the post I was 
> careful to refer to a “survey antenna”
> as the point of the post. Ideally you want to be meters away from any metal.
> 
> Bob
> 
> > On Apr 30, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts 
> > mailto:time-nuts@lists.febo.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > I can see that on survey situation but will it affect timing installations?
> > Will you give me an idea how far those bullet type antenna needs to be?  My 
> > antenna sits on a very short pole (2 feet?) and its base is mounted to 
> > frame of my screened in porch.  Roof and structure is aluminum, which is 
> > very much like ground plane and reflective.
> > 
> > --- 
> > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> > I'm stuck in a wormhole  Hello, worms! 
> > 
> >  On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 5:01:05 PM EDT, Bob kb8tq  > > wrote:  
> > 
> > Hi
> > 
> > You very much do *not* want to put a ground plane on one of the modern 
> > survey
> > antennas.(Chinese or US or Canadian or …)  The better ones are very 
> > explicit 
> > about this. They are optimized to sit on a pole in free air. Anything else 
> > and the 
> > pattern is degraded. ( = multipath gets worse)
> > 
> > Bob
> > 
> >> On Apr 30, 2019, at 2:23 PM, David J Taylor via time-nuts 
> >> mailto:time-nuts@lists.febo.com>> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Hi David,
> >> 
> >> No, no ground plane. Don’t really have a lot of room for that in the 
> >> window. Out of curiosity, how large of an impact have you found with a 
> >> ground plane?
> >> 
> >> Btw, I love the pan!
> >> 
> >> Denny
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Yes, Denny, choosing the baking tray (IIRC) was fun - I wanted as large a 
> >> flat area as I could reasonably get, but it has to be magnetic.  I don't 
> >> recall what I took into the shop to test with!
> >> 
> >> Unfortunately I didn't make any specific measurements with and without the 
> >> ground plane, but I did see a noticeable increase in SNR.  Even a small 
> >> e.g. tobacco tin may help.
> >> 
> >> Cheers,
> >> David
> >> -- 
> >> SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
> >> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu 
> >> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 
> >> Twitter: @gm8arv 
> >> 
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> > 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-30 Thread Gary E. Miller

Yo All!

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 22:52:26 + (UTC)
Taka Kamiya via time-nuts  wrote:

> Yes, I saw your particular mention of survey antennas.  My concern
> was that multi-path will affect any setup.  

The best explanation I have seen is here, with lots of pretty graphs:

https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/GPS-Antenna_AppNote_%28GPS-X-08014%29.pdf

The %28 is a "(' and the %29 is a ')'

See section 5.  Especially this: "A good allowance for ground plane size
is typically in the area of 50 to 70 mm2."

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
"If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-30 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

The pictures shown earlier are of a “survey antenna”. In the post I was careful 
to refer to a “survey antenna”
as the point of the post. Ideally you want to be meters away from any metal.

Bob

> On Apr 30, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> I can see that on survey situation but will it affect timing installations?
> Will you give me an idea how far those bullet type antenna needs to be?  My 
> antenna sits on a very short pole (2 feet?) and its base is mounted to frame 
> of my screened in porch.  Roof and structure is aluminum, which is very much 
> like ground plane and reflective.
> 
> --- 
> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> I'm stuck in a wormhole  Hello, worms! 
> 
>   On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 5:01:05 PM EDT, Bob kb8tq  
> wrote:  
> 
> Hi
> 
> You very much do *not* want to put a ground plane on one of the modern survey
> antennas.(Chinese or US or Canadian or …)  The better ones are very explicit 
> about this. They are optimized to sit on a pole in free air. Anything else 
> and the 
> pattern is degraded. ( = multipath gets worse)
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Apr 30, 2019, at 2:23 PM, David J Taylor via time-nuts 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi David,
>> 
>> No, no ground plane. Don’t really have a lot of room for that in the window. 
>> Out of curiosity, how large of an impact have you found with a ground plane?
>> 
>> Btw, I love the pan!
>> 
>> Denny
>> 
>> 
>> Yes, Denny, choosing the baking tray (IIRC) was fun - I wanted as large a 
>> flat area as I could reasonably get, but it has to be magnetic.  I don't 
>> recall what I took into the shop to test with!
>> 
>> Unfortunately I didn't make any specific measurements with and without the 
>> ground plane, but I did see a noticeable increase in SNR.  Even a small e.g. 
>> tobacco tin may help.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> David
>> -- 
>> SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
>> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
>> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
>> Twitter: @gm8arv 
>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-30 Thread Taka Kamiya via time-nuts

I can see that on survey situation but will it affect timing installations?
Will you give me an idea how far those bullet type antenna needs to be?  My 
antenna sits on a very short pole (2 feet?) and its base is mounted to frame of 
my screened in porch.  Roof and structure is aluminum, which is very much like 
ground plane and reflective.

--- 
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
I'm stuck in a wormhole  Hello, worms! 

On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 5:01:05 PM EDT, Bob kb8tq  
wrote:  

 Hi

You very much do *not* want to put a ground plane on one of the modern survey
antennas.(Chinese or US or Canadian or …)  The better ones are very explicit 
about this. They are optimized to sit on a pole in free air. Anything else and 
the 
pattern is degraded. ( = multipath gets worse)

Bob

> On Apr 30, 2019, at 2:23 PM, David J Taylor via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> No, no ground plane. Don’t really have a lot of room for that in the window. 
> Out of curiosity, how large of an impact have you found with a ground plane?
> 
> Btw, I love the pan!
> 
> Denny
> 
> 
> Yes, Denny, choosing the baking tray (IIRC) was fun - I wanted as large a 
> flat area as I could reasonably get, but it has to be magnetic.  I don't 
> recall what I took into the shop to test with!
> 
> Unfortunately I didn't make any specific measurements with and without the 
> ground plane, but I did see a noticeable increase in SNR.  Even a small e.g. 
> tobacco tin may help.
> 
> Cheers,
> David
> -- 
> SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
> Twitter: @gm8arv 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-30 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

You very much do *not* want to put a ground plane on one of the modern survey
antennas.(Chinese or US or Canadian or …)  The better ones are very explicit 
about this. They are optimized to sit on a pole in free air. Anything else and 
the 
pattern is degraded. ( = multipath gets worse)

Bob

> On Apr 30, 2019, at 2:23 PM, David J Taylor via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> No, no ground plane. Don’t really have a lot of room for that in the window. 
> Out of curiosity, how large of an impact have you found with a ground plane?
> 
> Btw, I love the pan!
> 
> Denny
> 
> 
> Yes, Denny, choosing the baking tray (IIRC) was fun - I wanted as large a 
> flat area as I could reasonably get, but it has to be magnetic.  I don't 
> recall what I took into the shop to test with!
> 
> Unfortunately I didn't make any specific measurements with and without the 
> ground plane, but I did see a noticeable increase in SNR.  Even a small e.g. 
> tobacco tin may help.
> 
> Cheers,
> David
> -- 
> SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
> Twitter: @gm8arv 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-30 Thread David J Taylor via time-nuts


Hi David,

No, no ground plane. Don’t really have a lot of room for that in the window. 
Out of curiosity, how large of an impact have you found with a ground plane?


Btw, I love the pan!

Denny


Yes, Denny, choosing the baking tray (IIRC) was fun - I wanted as large a 
flat area as I could reasonably get, but it has to be magnetic.  I don't 
recall what I took into the shop to test with!


Unfortunately I didn't make any specific measurements with and without the 
ground plane, but I did see a noticeable increase in SNR.  Even a small e.g. 
tobacco tin may help.


Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 



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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-30 Thread Leo Bodnar

> From: Denny Page 
> Initially, the units were connected to puck antennas that are literally side 
> by side. At approximately 19:15, the units are taken off the puck antennas 
> and connected to the single antenna through the splitter.
> I really didn?t expect such a dramatic change.

It does look significant, with difference dropping to what looks like about 5ns 
rms.  
I thought most of the timing noise is coming from network performance/topology 
but it does look like it is GPS performance related.

> From: Bob kb8tq 
> There normally is a ?survey in? process on a GPSDO. The location then gets 
> used to

This particular time server does not use survey-in mode.

Leo
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-30 Thread Denny Page via time-nuts

Hi David,

No, no ground plane. Don’t really have a lot of room for that in the window. 
Out of curiosity, how large of an impact have you found with a ground plane?

Btw, I love the pan!

Denny

> On Apr 30, 2019, at 00:34, David J Taylor via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> Agreed with Dana's comments on the antennas.  If indoors the signal strength 
> would be much less.  Did you have a ground plane for the puck antennas?  I 
> went through a couple of iterations:
> 
> https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/2013-03-31-1226-32-GPS-antenna-farm.jpg
> 
> https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/2019-01-08-1330-23b-GPS-antenna-farm.jpg
> 
> and I have a simple outdoor L1 antenna & splitter too.
> 
> Cheers,
> David

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-30 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

There normally is a “survey in” process on a GPSDO. The location then gets used 
to
help out the timing solution. If you move the antennas “far enough” (how far 
very much depends
on the design) the device goes back into survey mode. While doing that, the 
timing
may be less than ideal.

Bob

> On Apr 30, 2019, at 3:34 AM, David J Taylor via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> Denny,
> 
> That is certainly a large difference.  But I'm not clear on one point that 
> could easily be very important:
> 
> Were the two antennas for the separate antenna test indoors, or on the roof? 
> If indoor, I kind of suspect that the difference might mostly be attributed 
> to the change in antenna locations more than anything else.  If this is 
> what's going on, you've made very strong case for outdoor antennas for GPS 
> timing.
> 
> Also, it's possible that the two receivers with their antennas in such close 
> proximity might have been interfering with each other.
> 
> Dana
> =
> 
> Agreed with Dana's comments on the antennas.  If indoors the signal strength 
> would be much less.  Did you have a ground plane for the puck antennas?  I 
> went through a couple of iterations:
> 
> https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/2013-03-31-1226-32-GPS-antenna-farm.jpg
> 
> https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/2019-01-08-1330-23b-GPS-antenna-farm.jpg
> 
> and I have a simple outdoor L1 antenna & splitter too.
> 
> Cheers,
> David
> -- 
> SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
> Twitter: @gm8arv 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-30 Thread David J Taylor via time-nuts


Denny,

That is certainly a large difference.  But I'm not clear on one point that 
could easily be very important:


Were the two antennas for the separate antenna test indoors, or on the roof? 
If indoor, I kind of suspect that the difference might mostly be attributed 
to the change in antenna locations more than anything else.  If this is 
what's going on, you've made very strong case for outdoor antennas for GPS 
timing.


Also, it's possible that the two receivers with their antennas in such close 
proximity might have been interfering with each other.


Dana
=

Agreed with Dana's comments on the antennas.  If indoors the signal strength 
would be much less.  Did you have a ground plane for the puck antennas?  I 
went through a couple of iterations:


 https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/2013-03-31-1226-32-GPS-antenna-farm.jpg

 https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/2019-01-08-1330-23b-GPS-antenna-farm.jpg

and I have a simple outdoor L1 antenna & splitter too.

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 



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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-29 Thread Denny Page via time-nuts

Hi Dana,

The antennas were in the window, top of the lower pane of a two pane window. 
Certainly a better location that the antenna sitting on the desk.

There were several other units that showed similar behaviors. I suppose it’s 
possible that there was interference. There were 7 antennas in 3 different 
groups—2 groups of 3 antennas separated by 4 inches, and 1 antenna off by 
itself. However, all showed an increased “closeness” in tracking when moving to 
the common antenna. It’s not exactly a controlled test, but surprising 
nonetheless. Just out of curiosity, I may do a more controlled comparison once 
I’m done with the current testing.

Denny

> On Apr 29, 2019, at 18:18, Dana Whitlow  wrote:
> 
> Denny,
> 
> That is certainly a large difference.  But I'm not clear on one point that
> could
> easily be very important:
> 
> Were the two antennas for the separate antenna test indoors, or on the roof?
> If indoor, I kind of suspect that the difference might mostly be attributed
> to the
> change in antenna locations more than anything else.  If this is what's
> going on,
> you've made very strong case for outdoor antennas for GPS timing.
> 
> Also, it's possible that the two receivers with their antennas in such close
> proximity might have been interfering with each other.
> 
> Dana
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:07 PM Denny Page via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> 
>> I don’t seem to be able to attach the pics to the emails correctly to
>> allow the mailing list software to process them. Rather than bombard
>> everyone with any more attempts, I put them up on Dropbox.
>> 
>> You can find the pics here:
>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fbbfuydqac5qqql/AAADkwrcVL8u5nkHvi8ecMe3a
>> 
>> Thank you to Tom and John for trying to help!
>> 
>> Denny
>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-29 Thread Dana Whitlow

Denny,

That is certainly a large difference.  But I'm not clear on one point that
could
easily be very important:

Were the two antennas for the separate antenna test indoors, or on the roof?
If indoor, I kind of suspect that the difference might mostly be attributed
to the
change in antenna locations more than anything else.  If this is what's
going on,
you've made very strong case for outdoor antennas for GPS timing.

Also, it's possible that the two receivers with their antennas in such close
proximity might have been interfering with each other.

Dana

On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:07 PM Denny Page via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> I don’t seem to be able to attach the pics to the emails correctly to
> allow the mailing list software to process them. Rather than bombard
> everyone with any more attempts, I put them up on Dropbox.
>
> You can find the pics here:
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fbbfuydqac5qqql/AAADkwrcVL8u5nkHvi8ecMe3a
>
> Thank you to Tom and John for trying to help!
>
> Denny
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-29 Thread Denny Page via time-nuts

I don’t seem to be able to attach the pics to the emails correctly to allow the 
mailing list software to process them. Rather than bombard everyone with any 
more attempts, I put them up on Dropbox.

You can find the pics here: 
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fbbfuydqac5qqql/AAADkwrcVL8u5nkHvi8ecMe3a

Thank you to Tom and John for trying to help!

Denny


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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-29 Thread Denny Page via time-nuts

[Resend—hopefully pics come through this time]

One additional interesting thing which I didn’t anticipate is the effect of 
moving from multiple (puck) antennas to a single antenna.

The graph below shows the relationship between two LeoNTP units in the local 
network as perceived by chrony. The system clock is synced to the first LeoNTP 
unit, and the graph represents chrony’s view of the clock offset for the second 
LeoNTP unit. Initially, the units were connected to puck antennas that are 
literally side by side. At approximately 19:15, the units are taken off the 
puck antennas and connected to the single antenna through the splitter. Other 
timing units in the local network show a similar result.

I really didn’t expect such a dramatic change.


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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-29 Thread Denny Page via time-nuts

[Resend—hopefully pics come through this time]

Thanks Bob, this is in fact what I ended up doing. I bought a pair of the L1 / 
L2 / L5 antennas from China, one for rooftop mounting at the new site, and one 
for testing. I paired it with a splitter from GPS Networking. 35 feet of RG-213 
from the antenna to the splitter, and 3 feet of rg-58 from splitter to the 
devices. The one I’m using for testing is sitting on my desk near a window… so 
far it’s been working well.

I’ve included a couple of pics of the mounting below. This is what can happen 
when a contractor enjoys a good challenge. :)

> On Jan 27, 2019, at 05:28, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> With things like the uBlox F9 now out on the market cheap …. I would go with 
> an antenna that will do L1 / L2 / L5 and work with everything that it up 
> there. 
> You still are in the “under $100” range (delivered) for new product from 
> China. 
> It’s a good bet that the guts of all of them are made there. It’s also a good 
> bet
> that they all are ceramic slab style designs. 
> 
> Bob
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-29 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

Looks like that should work. Don’t forget about grounding / lightning 
protection …

Bob

> On Apr 29, 2019, at 2:21 PM, Denny Page  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Bob, this is in fact what I ended up doing. I bought a pair of the L1 
> / L2 / L5 antennas from China, one for rooftop mounting at the new site, and 
> one for testing. I paired it with a splitter from GPS Networking. 35 feet of 
> RG-213 from the antenna to the splitter, and 3 feet of rg-58 from splitter to 
> the devices. The one I’m using for testing is sitting on my desk near a 
> window… so far it’s been working well.
> 
> I’ve included a couple of pics of the mounting below. This is what can happen 
> when a contractor enjoys a good challenge. :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2019, at 05:28, Bob kb8tq mailto:kb...@n1k.org>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> With things like the uBlox F9 now out on the market cheap …. I would go with 
>> an antenna that will do L1 / L2 / L5 and work with everything that it up 
>> there. 
>> You still are in the “under $100” range (delivered) for new product from 
>> China. 
>> It’s a good bet that the guts of all of them are made there. It’s also a 
>> good bet
>> that they all are ceramic slab style designs. 
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-29 Thread Denny Page via time-nuts

Thanks Bob, this is in fact what I ended up doing. I bought a pair of the L1 / 
L2 / L5 antennas from China, one for rooftop mounting at the new site, and one 
for testing. I paired it with a splitter from GPS Networking. 35 feet of RG-213 
from the antenna to the splitter, and 3 feet of rg-58 from splitter to the 
devices. The one I’m using for testing is sitting on my desk near a window… so 
far it’s been working well.

I’ve included a couple of pics of the mounting below. This is what can happen 
when a contractor enjoys a good challenge. :)

> On Jan 27, 2019, at 05:28, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> With things like the uBlox F9 now out on the market cheap …. I would go with 
> an antenna that will do L1 / L2 / L5 and work with everything that it up 
> there. 
> You still are in the “under $100” range (delivered) for new product from 
> China. 
> It’s a good bet that the guts of all of them are made there. It’s also a good 
> bet
> that they all are ceramic slab style designs. 
> 
> Bob
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-04-29 Thread Denny Page via time-nuts

One additional interesting thing which I didn’t anticipate is the effect of 
moving from multiple (puck) antennas to a single antenna.

The graph below shows the relationship between two LeoNTP units in the local 
network as perceived by chrony. The system clock is synced to the first LeoNTP 
unit, and the graph represents chrony’s view of the clock offset for the second 
LeoNTP unit. Initially, the units were connected to puck antennas that are 
literally side by side. At approximately 19:15, the units are taken off the 
puck antennas and connected to the single antenna through the splitter. Other 
timing units in the local network show a similar result.

I really didn’t expect such a dramatic change.


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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-31 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

When they say “you have to use *only* the F9 config and commands” they very 
much mean it …. except when 
the don’t. Sorting that out has taken a while. Getting the survey to re-start 
seems a bit backwards. That may be
simple because I’ve been away from uBlox for a while ….

Bob

> On Jan 31, 2019, at 2:36 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> You will need RINEX v3.x format to take advantage of the F9 multi-GNSS data.  
>  CSRS-PPP seems to be the only online service that takes v3 data.  Also they 
> seem to only handle GPS and GLONASS at the moment.
> 
> I have an F9P on order, but Fedex seems to be taking their sweet time (says 2 
> weeks to go from Colorado to Texas).   When it gets here it should not take 
> too long to get Heather working with it.
> 
> 
> 
>> Off to figure out how to get the F9P data into RINEX ….
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-31 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

Indeed, putting a ground plane on a GPS antenna that is not designed 
to use one will make it perform worse than it will with one. If the antenna
is a modern one that is designed for mounting on a tripod or a pole, it’s 
a good bet it was designed to not have a ground plane backing it up. 

A magnetic puck antenna that goes on a car - sure, it wants a ground 
plane. It’s also a pretty sort term answer for a outdoor antenna…..

One thing that the newer receivers are going to want is a stable antenna 
mount as well as a stable phase center. Since you now have L1 / L2 data, 
you can properly process things to get (claimed) mm level accuracy on the 
location. That is *way* better than you will get out of a normal “survey in” 
sort of approach. It’s also free …. 

Off to figure out how to get the F9P data into RINEX ….

Bob

> On Jan 30, 2019, at 5:29 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 21:29:20 +0100
> Achim Gratz  wrote:
> 
>> Typically if they already have a ground plane mounted it's between
>> 6cm…10cm in diameter (or side length if quadratic).  Over that size you
>> shouldn't see much effect anymore on the antenna sensitivity pattern,
> 
> There is quite a big difference in radiation patterns depending on
> the size of the ground plane. The back lobes but also the low-elevation
> sidelobes change quite dramatically when going from 10cm to 20cm to 1m.
> And even with the 1m antenna, having a sharp edge vs a serrated or 
> curved edge makes again quite a bit of difference for back lobes.
> 
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 20:41:26 +0100
> Achim Gratz  wrote:
> 
>> Use a resonant ground plane with four or eight tuned radials instead,
>> that also has the advantage of way lower wind load…
> 
> Tuned elements with high Q are definitely not what you want with a
> GNSS antenna used for precision applications, as they cause large
> changes in group delay. Keep in mind that the GNSS signal has +/-6kHz
> of Doppler frequency.
> 
> Also, having a non-planar ground plane will cause the phase centre
> to shift depending on the azimuth where the satellite is seen.
> Again something you do not want with precision applications.
> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> Science is made up of so many things that appear obvious 
> after they are explained. -- Pardot Kynes
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-30 Thread Attila Kinali

On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 21:29:20 +0100
Achim Gratz  wrote:

> Typically if they already have a ground plane mounted it's between
> 6cm…10cm in diameter (or side length if quadratic).  Over that size you
> shouldn't see much effect anymore on the antenna sensitivity pattern,

There is quite a big difference in radiation patterns depending on
the size of the ground plane. The back lobes but also the low-elevation
sidelobes change quite dramatically when going from 10cm to 20cm to 1m.
And even with the 1m antenna, having a sharp edge vs a serrated or 
curved edge makes again quite a bit of difference for back lobes.

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 20:41:26 +0100
Achim Gratz  wrote:

> Use a resonant ground plane with four or eight tuned radials instead,
> that also has the advantage of way lower wind load…

Tuned elements with high Q are definitely not what you want with a
GNSS antenna used for precision applications, as they cause large
changes in group delay. Keep in mind that the GNSS signal has +/-6kHz
of Doppler frequency.

Also, having a non-planar ground plane will cause the phase centre
to shift depending on the azimuth where the satellite is seen.
Again something you do not want with precision applications.

Attila Kinali

-- 
Science is made up of so many things that appear obvious 
after they are explained. -- Pardot Kynes

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-30 Thread Mark Goldberg

On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 1:00 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> The thing I’m not quite understanding here - why in the world use an
> antenna that needs
> a ground plane when you can get one that does not need an external ground
> plane?
>
>
What can I say, that antenna was $5.45, locally picked up from the seller,
works fine with the TruePosition I didn't pay much for either, and it
provides about 10 dB more signal with a ground plane.

I'm cheap. I'll admit it.

Regards,

Mark
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-30 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

The thing I’m not quite understanding here - why in the world use an antenna 
that needs
a ground plane when you can get one that does not need an external ground 
plane?  

I have three multi band GNSS antennas on the back of the house. They all get 
down to 
insane error circles  (like a mm) according to Opus. None of them have or need 
external 
ground planes. 

The survey guys got away from giant ground planes a long time ago. They seem to 
be 
quite happy with the results they get. 

Bob

> On Jan 30, 2019, at 12:47 PM, Mark Goldberg  wrote:
> 
> Put a "Bird Feeder" on the side of the house.
> 
> Even only seeing less than 1/2 the sky, this is doing OK with just a
> TruePosition L1 GPS, always 7-8 sats. I have room for two antennas on the
> ground plane, only have one and am using an HP 58515A active splitter.
> 
> Hopefully the attachment comes through.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 10:01 AM Denny Page via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Thanks Mark. For the cost, this seems like a worthwhile thing to try. I
>> don’t think the homeowners association would be too thrilled about a pizza
>> pan on a pole so I’ll probably have to do without.
>> 
>> Besides, If I mounted a pizza pan I would also endure endless teasing from
>> from my wife who already thinks I’m insane. :)
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 29, 2019, at 11:44, Mark Sims  wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is the antenna that I am now using.   I do have it mounted over an
>> 18" pizza pan... I don't know if that does any good,  it seemed to work
>> fine without it.
>>> 
>>> 
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CORS-RTK-GNSS-Survey-Antenna-high-gain-measurement-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BDS/253786590956?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
>>> ___
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>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-30 Thread Achim Gratz

Denny Page via time-nuts writes:
> Thanks Mark. For the cost, this seems like a worthwhile thing to
> try. I don’t think the homeowners association would be too thrilled
> about a pizza pan on a pole so I’ll probably have to do without.

Use a resonant ground plane with four or eight tuned radials instead,
that also has the advantage of way lower wind load…


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

DIY Stuff:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/DIY.html

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-30 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

Wind load is not a good thing when you are putting things way up in the air on 
poles. Survival will 
be much more likely if you don’t have to attach a great big sail to the antenna 
….

Bob

> On Jan 30, 2019, at 11:38 AM, Denny Page via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Mark. For the cost, this seems like a worthwhile thing to try. I don’t 
> think the homeowners association would be too thrilled about a pizza pan on a 
> pole so I’ll probably have to do without.
> 
> Besides, If I mounted a pizza pan I would also endure endless teasing from 
> from my wife who already thinks I’m insane. :)
> 
> 
>> On Jan 29, 2019, at 11:44, Mark Sims  wrote:
>> 
>> This is the antenna that I am now using.   I do have it mounted over an 18" 
>> pizza pan... I don't know if that does any good,  it seemed to work fine 
>> without it.
>> 
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CORS-RTK-GNSS-Survey-Antenna-high-gain-measurement-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BDS/253786590956?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-30 Thread John Marvin

Just tell your neighbors that you "cut the cord" and it is a new fangled
miracle "Digital" amplified UHF TV antenna. Any outside TV antenna falls
under the FCC OTARD exceptions, and your homeowners association can't do
a thing about it. :)

John

On 1/30/2019 9:38 AM, Denny Page via time-nuts wrote:

Thanks Mark. For the cost, this seems like a worthwhile thing to try. I don’t
think the homeowners association would be too thrilled about a pizza pan on a
pole so I’ll probably have to do without.

Besides, If I mounted a pizza pan I would also endure endless teasing from from
my wife who already thinks I’m insane. :)

On Jan 29, 2019, at 11:44, Mark Sims wrote:

This is the antenna that I am now using. I do have it mounted over an 18"
pizza pan... I don't know if that does any good, it seemed to work fine without it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CORS-RTK-GNSS-Survey-Antenna-high-gain-measurement-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BDS/253786590956?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-30 Thread jimlux


On 1/30/19 8:38 AM, Denny Page via time-nuts wrote:

Thanks Mark. For the cost, this seems like a worthwhile thing to try. I don’t 
think the homeowners association would be too thrilled about a pizza pan on a 
pole so I’ll probably have to do without.

Besides, If I mounted a pizza pan I would also endure endless teasing from from 
my wife who already thinks I’m insane. :)



nested cake pans make a nice choke ring, if properly selected for 
height/diameter.




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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-30 Thread Mark Goldberg

Put a "Bird Feeder" on the side of the house.

Even only seeing less than 1/2 the sky, this is doing OK with just a
TruePosition L1 GPS, always 7-8 sats. I have room for two antennas on the
ground plane, only have one and am using an HP 58515A active splitter.

Hopefully the attachment comes through.

Regards,

Mark


On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 10:01 AM Denny Page via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> Thanks Mark. For the cost, this seems like a worthwhile thing to try. I
> don’t think the homeowners association would be too thrilled about a pizza
> pan on a pole so I’ll probably have to do without.
>
> Besides, If I mounted a pizza pan I would also endure endless teasing from
> from my wife who already thinks I’m insane. :)
>
>
> > On Jan 29, 2019, at 11:44, Mark Sims  wrote:
> >
> > This is the antenna that I am now using.   I do have it mounted over an
> 18" pizza pan... I don't know if that does any good,  it seemed to work
> fine without it.
> >
> >
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CORS-RTK-GNSS-Survey-Antenna-high-gain-measurement-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BDS/253786590956?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
> > ___
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> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-30 Thread Denny Page via time-nuts

Thanks Mark. For the cost, this seems like a worthwhile thing to try. I don’t 
think the homeowners association would be too thrilled about a pizza pan on a 
pole so I’ll probably have to do without.

Besides, If I mounted a pizza pan I would also endure endless teasing from from 
my wife who already thinks I’m insane. :)

> On Jan 29, 2019, at 11:44, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> This is the antenna that I am now using.   I do have it mounted over an 18" 
> pizza pan... I don't know if that does any good,  it seemed to work fine 
> without it.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CORS-RTK-GNSS-Survey-Antenna-high-gain-measurement-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BDS/253786590956?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-29 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

Often the “puck” that comes with a demo board is set up to only work when
directly connected to the board. No long cable runs, no splitters, no lightning 
protection
to all add a bit of loss here and there. It also is a good bet that whatever is 
supplied
“free” with the demo board came from the low bidder.

About all we have to go by is a line in the spec that talks about 40 db max and 
30 db 
typical as being the “recommended” gain characteristics. The more common numbers
would be 20 db typical and 30 db max for sort of telecom devices we all are 
used to working with. 

The lack of a “minimum” spec generally is because the problem is actually far 
more complex
that a simple gain number. Things like antenna element gain matter. Gain delta 
between 
overhead and horizon matters. LNA noise figure matters. Since these are multi 
band 
devices, gain delta between bands matters. 

All of that assumes the antenna is sitting on a pole with a perfect view of the 
sky in all
directions. Does this gizmo get used under tree cover? Do birds land on it? 
Does snow
and ice pile up on it? How well should it work in those conditions? ( Looking 
out at the 
multiband antennas here with ice and snow rapidly piling up on them yet again 
…..)

All I’m suggesting is that if you have a choice between antennas up around 40 
db and
ones down below 30 db …. the higher gain is a lot more likely to do the job. 
Since you
can get the higher gain devices for not much money, there’s not much downside. 

Bob

> On Jan 29, 2019, at 3:09 PM, Achim Gratz  wrote:
> 
> Bob kb8tq writes:
>> The first one is designed to mount on a ground plane (which is fine if it is 
>> going 
>> on a truck or airplane). It also is a bit low in gain for what I *think* the 
>> F9 is looking
>> for. 
> 
> The only antenna that u-Blox themselves advertise for use with the
> (eval) F9P module is an unassuming 28dB gain puck (ANN-MB, not seen it
> anywhere for sale so far).  So I don't think that the gain matters very
> much for this module unless you have to compensate for distribution
> losses, at which point you'll probably end up with the more typical
> 35…41db gain figures for fiyed installation antennas.
> 
> Interestingly enough the antenna is mentioned in a comparison with two
> other multi-band patch antennas here:
> 
> https://www.ardusimple.com/ardusimples-oem-antenna-vs-u-blox-tallysman/
> 
> You can apparently buy one from their store, with or without an
> accompanying F9P RTK-module.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Achim.
> -- 
> +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+
> 
> SD adaptation for Waldorf microQ V2.22R2:
> http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-29 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

Well, the lower cost alternative works fine without any ground plane at all. 
That 
seems like the winning solution :)

My guess is that they designed it to go on the cab of a truck. That would get 
you 
to something around 4’ x 6’. As Mark mentions …. no idea what they do or don’t 
need for that antenna. I’m just going by what it looks like. 

Bob

> On Jan 29, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
> 
> kb...@n1k.org said:
>> The first one is designed to mount on a ground plane (which is fine if it is
>> going  on a truck or airplane).
> 
> How big a ground plane do they need?  I'm thinking of a sheet of aluminum.
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-29 Thread Achim Gratz

Hal Murray writes:
> kb8tq-wyfad0z3...@public.gmane.org said:
>> The first one is designed to mount on a ground plane (which is fine if it is
>> going  on a truck or airplane).
>
> How big a ground plane do they need?  I'm thinking of a sheet of aluminum.

Typically if they already have a ground plane mounted it's between
6cm…10cm in diameter (or side length if quadratic).  Over that size you
shouldn't see much effect anymore on the antenna sensitivity pattern,
below that size you sometimes get a slight uplifting of the elevation
response.  I typically use the lid of a large enough can if I quickly
need a circular ground plane, but a piece of aluminum foil just almost
as well, too (wrap it around a piece of cardboard or plywood if you need
structural stability).

Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

SD adaptation for Waldorf rackAttack V1.04R1:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-29 Thread Achim Gratz

Bob kb8tq writes:
> The first one is designed to mount on a ground plane (which is fine if it is 
> going 
> on a truck or airplane). It also is a bit low in gain for what I *think* the 
> F9 is looking
> for. 

The only antenna that u-Blox themselves advertise for use with the
(eval) F9P module is an unassuming 28dB gain puck (ANN-MB, not seen it
anywhere for sale so far).  So I don't think that the gain matters very
much for this module unless you have to compensate for distribution
losses, at which point you'll probably end up with the more typical
35…41db gain figures for fiyed installation antennas.

Interestingly enough the antenna is mentioned in a comparison with two
other multi-band patch antennas here:

https://www.ardusimple.com/ardusimples-oem-antenna-vs-u-blox-tallysman/

You can apparently buy one from their store, with or without an
accompanying F9P RTK-module.

Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

SD adaptation for Waldorf microQ V2.22R2:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-29 Thread Hal Murray



kb...@n1k.org said:
> The first one is designed to mount on a ground plane (which is fine if it is
> going  on a truck or airplane).

How big a ground plane do they need?  I'm thinking of a sheet of aluminum.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-29 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

The first one is designed to mount on a ground plane (which is fine if it is 
going 
on a truck or airplane). It also is a bit low in gain for what I *think* the F9 
is looking
for. 

The second one has the right sort of gain, but still is targeted at a ground 
plane 
(rolling stock) application. 

Bob

> On Jan 29, 2019, at 1:02 AM, Denny Page  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2019, at 05:28, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>> 
>> With things like the uBlox F9 now out on the market cheap …. I would go with 
>> an antenna that will do L1 / L2 / L5 and work with everything that it up 
>> there. 
> 
> Like these?
> 
> https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/multi-gnss-l1-l2-l5-precision-antenna-gnss-l125-tnc/
> https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/multi-gnss-l1-l2-l5-precision-antenna-high-gain-gnss-l125-40tnc/
> 
> Denny
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-28 Thread Denny Page via time-nuts

> On Jan 27, 2019, at 05:28, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> With things like the uBlox F9 now out on the market cheap …. I would go with 
> an antenna that will do L1 / L2 / L5 and work with everything that it up 
> there. 

Like these?

https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/multi-gnss-l1-l2-l5-precision-antenna-gnss-l125-tnc/
https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/multi-gnss-l1-l2-l5-precision-antenna-high-gain-gnss-l125-40tnc/

Denny

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-27 Thread jimlux

On 1/27/19 6:24 AM, Bill Slade wrote:

Hi again,
The very best GNSS antennas tend to be based on suspended patch antenna
(air-dielectric) structures because they give the best
bandwidth/radiation efficiency (and hence, noise temperature)
performance. The very best include choke-rings for multipath
suppression (Dorne-Margolin & variants), but these are costly items.

In the choke ring world, the typical elements I've seen recently tend to
be crossed drooping dipoles

There's also the ever popular helibowl (a helix wound on a plastic cup
(red Solo beer cup is a bit too big) in a metal bowl - think the things
under a burner in a stove) - non-critical, wideband, etc.

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-May/067138.html
One reference says Spitzmesser apparently based it on the "helicone"
Carver, K, "The Helicone - A Circularly Polarized Antenna with Low Side
lobe Level" Proc IEEE, vol AP-55, #4, Apr 67, p559.

Maybe, maybe not - I get the impression it's a "lets try this and see if
it works" antenna.

So I'm going to guess it's not the bit "IEEE Proceedings", but the Trans
on Ant and Prop.

Helibowls don't have horizon to horizon coverage.

Miniature ceramic pucks can have pretty horrible radiation efficiency,
which degrades noise performance, so be careful when buying Chinese
cheapies. I have actually seen commercial antennas where resistors
were added (before LNA) to improve antenna return loss!

On 27.01.19 14:28, Bob kb8tq wrote:

With things like the uBlox F9 now out on the market cheap …. I would go with
an antenna that will do L1 / L2 / L5 and work with everything that it up there.
You still are in the “under $100” range (delivered) for new product from China.
It’s a good bet that the guts of all of them are made there. It’s also a good
bet
that they all are ceramic slab style designs.

Bob

On Jan 26, 2019, at 11:10 PM, Denny Page via time-nuts
wrote:

Hi all,

I’m looking for recommendations on an antenna / splitter configuration. I
currently have six GPS/GLONASS/Galileo timing devices, each with it’s own puck
antenna in a window. I have an opportunity to move to a (single) roof top
antenna, with a splitter to feed the individual devices, and I am looking for
recommendations on which antenna and splitter people would recommend.

So far, I am looking at the following antennas:

PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-26N
(https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-reference-antenna-gnss1-tmg-26n/)

PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-40N
(https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-antenna-gnss1-tmg-40n/)

And the following splitters:

GPS Networking ALDCBS1x8 (https://www.gpsnetworking.com/products/aldcbs1x8)

GPS Source S18
(https://www.gpssource.com/collections/gps-splitter/products/s18-1x8-standard-gps-splitter)

The run from the antenna to the splitter will be 30-35 feet, and from the
splitter to the units will be 3-5 feet. I’m wondering about the need for the
40dB vs the 26dB. I haven’t looked at any passive splitters, but even with the
40dB I’m thinking won’t offer enough to support even a 1x6 splitter.

I would appreciate any thoughts folk have to offer.

Thanks,
Denny

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-27 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

True indeed and for about $10,000 you can get pretty close to “the best”. If you
want to slum it, you can get “pretty good” for about $2,000.  If you are truly 
after high end performance new is the way to go. Getting the full  modern suite 
of signals on a used one …. not so much. Even getting a used one that isn’t a 
bit 
beat up may be a challenge. I have also seen used antennas listed for more
than they cost new …..

Since all that “best” stuff applies mainly to survey work, it’s not clear that 
one needs to spend that much for a timing antenna. In the context of 
what’s coming, you do very much want all the bands / all the signals /
all the services. That will matter, even for timing. At the very least the 
European
system should be a great timing source (as GPS already is). The Russian 
system keeps getting better. I have not seen a lot of papers showing the 
Chinese doing quite as well. I’d bet they will catch up if they have not
already. 

Why is best different for survey vs timing? For a good survey, you want
sat’s spread out all over the sky. That quickly gets you to sats that are
close to the horizon. Multipath it going to be an issue when you do that. 
For timing (with a well known static location of course) your best sat’s 
are straight overhead. (the path through the atmosphere is shorter, the 
path is easier to estimate / correct ). You set things like an elevation mask 
to toss out the sat's likely to give multipath. 

Lots of variables ….

Bob

> On Jan 27, 2019, at 9:24 AM, Bill Slade  wrote:
> 
> Hi again,
> The very best GNSS antennas tend to be based on suspended patch antenna 
> (air-dielectric) structures because they give the best 
> bandwidth/radiation efficiency (and hence, noise temperature) 
> performance.  The very best include choke-rings for multipath 
> suppression (Dorne-Margolin & variants), but these are costly items.  
> Miniature ceramic pucks can have pretty horrible radiation efficiency, 
> which degrades noise performance, so be careful when buying Chinese 
> cheapies.I have actually seen commercial antennas where resistors 
> were added (before LNA) to improve antenna return loss!
> 
> On 27.01.19 14:28, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> With things like the uBlox F9 now out on the market cheap …. I would go with
>> an antenna that will do L1 / L2 / L5 and work with everything that it up 
>> there.
>> You still are in the “under $100” range (delivered) for new product from 
>> China.
>> It’s a good bet that the guts of all of them are made there. It’s also a 
>> good bet
>> that they all are ceramic slab style designs.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2019, at 11:10 PM, Denny Page via time-nuts 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> I’m looking for recommendations on an antenna / splitter configuration. I 
>>> currently have six GPS/GLONASS/Galileo timing devices, each with it’s own 
>>> puck antenna in a window. I have an opportunity to move to a (single) roof 
>>> top antenna, with a splitter to feed the individual devices, and I am 
>>> looking for recommendations on which antenna and splitter people would 
>>> recommend.
>>> 
>>> So far, I am looking at the following antennas:
>>> 
>>> PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-26N 
>>> (https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-reference-antenna-gnss1-tmg-26n/)
>>> 
>>> PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-40N 
>>> (https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-antenna-gnss1-tmg-40n/)
>>> 
>>> And the following splitters:
>>> 
>>> GPS Networking ALDCBS1x8 (https://www.gpsnetworking.com/products/aldcbs1x8)
>>> 
>>> GPS Source S18 
>>> (https://www.gpssource.com/collections/gps-splitter/products/s18-1x8-standard-gps-splitter)
>>> 
>>> The run from the antenna to the splitter will be 30-35 feet, and from the 
>>> splitter to the units will be 3-5 feet. I’m wondering about the need for 
>>> the 40dB vs the 26dB. I haven’t looked at any passive splitters, but even 
>>> with the 40dB I’m thinking won’t offer enough to support even a 1x6 
>>> splitter.
>>> 
>>> I would appreciate any thoughts folk have to offer.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Denny
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
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and

Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-27 Thread Ben Hall


Hi Denny and list,

Some thoughts from me...worth about what you paid for them considering 
my Time-Nuts membership card was revoked the week before last for 
heresy, hahaha!  ;)


PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-40N 
(https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-antenna-gnss1-tmg-40n/)


I've got the GPS-only version of this antenna as my main antenna bought 
off the e-place - example:    (no connection to 
the seller, not even sure if this is the place where I got mine)


It's a very nice antenna and has a nice mounting kit with it.  The 
filters on the GPS-only version I've got are tight enough to block out 
GLONASS.  IMHO, this is nice, as it shows they paid attention to the 
design.  On the other hand, now that I do want to receive GLONASS...I've 
got one of the eBay shipped-from-China "CORS RTK GNSS Survey Antenna 
high gain measurement GNSS GPS GLONASS BDS" antennas on the way that 
folks were discussing in the uBlox F9 thread here.



And the following splitters:


I have no experience with commercial active splitters.  I've used either 
commercial passive units, homebrew active units, or modified commeriical 
passive units.


>The run from the antenna to the splitter will be 30-35 feet, and
from the splitter to the units will be 3-5 feet. I’m wondering about 
the need for the 40dB vs the 26dB. I haven’t looked at any passive 
splitters, but even with the 40dB I’m thinking won’t offer enough to 
support even a 1x6 splitter.


Your proposed setup is pretty close to mine.  From my PCTEL to the 
Polyphaser lighting arrester is about 30 feet, and from the arrester to 
my splitter is about 10 feet.  The 30 feet is Cable Experts CXP-1318, 
the 10 feet is RG-58.  Depending on what receiver is on the splitter, 
add a couple of feet of RG-316.  (some are farther, some are closer, but 
it's about two feet from the splitter to the Z3801 or the TruePosition.)


My splitter is a modified Mini-Circuits ZC6PD-1900W.  This is a six way 
splitter, theoretical loss 7.8 dB.  I've modified it by adding a DC 
block capacitor to 5 of the output ports so that the PCTEL is fed +5VDC 
from the Z3801, and none of the other receivers see this DC voltage. 
This was simple - cut the traces at the five output ports I wanted to 
block, soldered on a SMD capacitor of value I cannot remember.


The VNA at work says I've got from 9 to 11 dB loss from 1.0 GHz to 2.5 
GHz.  It's actually a little less, but those are easy numbers to use.


Why the passive splitter?  I was able to get these off of the e-place 
for like $10 each...while an active 6-way splitter was at least $100 used.


This setup, while sub-optimal in so many ways, works pretty well! 
Here's a screen dump from Lady Heather:




Lowest signal is 40 dBc...and it's pretty much *always* has the full 8 
satellites it can simultaneously track.


The Z3801 shows the lowest signal strength right now as SS = 118 for PRN 
20, and it's not tracking PRN 14 if you want to compare it's signal 
strengths versus the TruePosition.


Doing some quick loss calcs:  (warning:  I've not had my coffee yet, so 
very prone to error!)


30 feet of CXP-1318 = 2 dB loss (had to assume similar to Belden 9913 as 
Cable Experts doesn't have loss above 400 MHz)


arrester = 1 dB loss (a guess)

10 feet of RG-58 = 2.5 dB loss

splitter = 10 dB loss

2 feet of RG-316 = 1 dB loss

Sum of the loss = 16.5 dB.  Probably should toss a few more dB in there 
because of connectors, etc...


So even with my crappy, far-less-than-optimal setup, I get pretty good 
results.


Like I said earlier, I haven't had my coffee yet so all of the above may 
be totally worthless.  ;)


thanks much and 73,
ben, KD5BYB

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-27 Thread Bill Slade

Hi again,
The very best GNSS antennas tend to be based on suspended patch antenna 
(air-dielectric) structures because they give the best 
bandwidth/radiation efficiency (and hence, noise temperature) 
performance.  The very best include choke-rings for multipath 
suppression (Dorne-Margolin & variants), but these are costly items.  
Miniature ceramic pucks can have pretty horrible radiation efficiency, 
which degrades noise performance, so be careful when buying Chinese 
cheapies.    I have actually seen commercial antennas where resistors 
were added (before LNA) to improve antenna return loss!

On 27.01.19 14:28, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
>
> With things like the uBlox F9 now out on the market cheap …. I would go with
> an antenna that will do L1 / L2 / L5 and work with everything that it up 
> there.
> You still are in the “under $100” range (delivered) for new product from 
> China.
> It’s a good bet that the guts of all of them are made there. It’s also a good 
> bet
> that they all are ceramic slab style designs.
>
> Bob
>
>> On Jan 26, 2019, at 11:10 PM, Denny Page via time-nuts 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I’m looking for recommendations on an antenna / splitter configuration. I 
>> currently have six GPS/GLONASS/Galileo timing devices, each with it’s own 
>> puck antenna in a window. I have an opportunity to move to a (single) roof 
>> top antenna, with a splitter to feed the individual devices, and I am 
>> looking for recommendations on which antenna and splitter people would 
>> recommend.
>>
>> So far, I am looking at the following antennas:
>>
>> PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-26N 
>> (https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-reference-antenna-gnss1-tmg-26n/)
>>
>> PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-40N 
>> (https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-antenna-gnss1-tmg-40n/)
>>
>> And the following splitters:
>>
>> GPS Networking ALDCBS1x8 (https://www.gpsnetworking.com/products/aldcbs1x8)
>>
>> GPS Source S18 
>> (https://www.gpssource.com/collections/gps-splitter/products/s18-1x8-standard-gps-splitter)
>>
>> The run from the antenna to the splitter will be 30-35 feet, and from the 
>> splitter to the units will be 3-5 feet. I’m wondering about the need for the 
>> 40dB vs the 26dB. I haven’t looked at any passive splitters, but even with 
>> the 40dB I’m thinking won’t offer enough to support even a 1x6 splitter.
>>
>> I would appreciate any thoughts folk have to offer.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Denny
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-27 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

With things like the uBlox F9 now out on the market cheap …. I would go with 
an antenna that will do L1 / L2 / L5 and work with everything that it up there. 
You still are in the “under $100” range (delivered) for new product from China. 
It’s a good bet that the guts of all of them are made there. It’s also a good 
bet
that they all are ceramic slab style designs. 

Bob

> On Jan 26, 2019, at 11:10 PM, Denny Page via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I’m looking for recommendations on an antenna / splitter configuration. I 
> currently have six GPS/GLONASS/Galileo timing devices, each with it’s own 
> puck antenna in a window. I have an opportunity to move to a (single) roof 
> top antenna, with a splitter to feed the individual devices, and I am looking 
> for recommendations on which antenna and splitter people would recommend.
> 
> So far, I am looking at the following antennas:
> 
> PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-26N 
> (https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-reference-antenna-gnss1-tmg-26n/)
> 
> PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-40N 
> (https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-antenna-gnss1-tmg-40n/)
> 
> And the following splitters:
> 
> GPS Networking ALDCBS1x8 (https://www.gpsnetworking.com/products/aldcbs1x8)
> 
> GPS Source S18 
> (https://www.gpssource.com/collections/gps-splitter/products/s18-1x8-standard-gps-splitter)
> 
> The run from the antenna to the splitter will be 30-35 feet, and from the 
> splitter to the units will be 3-5 feet. I’m wondering about the need for the 
> 40dB vs the 26dB. I haven’t looked at any passive splitters, but even with 
> the 40dB I’m thinking won’t offer enough to support even a 1x6 splitter.
> 
> I would appreciate any thoughts folk have to offer.
> 
> Thanks,
> Denny
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-27 Thread Bill Slade

Hello Denny,

Things to keep in mind:

1. To keep noise performance, LNA gain at the antenna should be at least 10
dB above total losses in antenna cable & distribution network. 13-16 dB above
is better. Something like this would be more than suitable for a 30 ft run:
https://www.pasternack.com/flexible-0.403-rg8-type-50-ohm-coax-cable-pvc-jacket-pe-b400-p.aspx
2. amplified splitter best (I see that's what you have in your web links).

If cable losses are under 13dB or so, a 26dB gain antenna should be fine. 40dB
gain will not give you any better performance. In fact, excess LNA gain makes
GNSS receiver tracking more susceptible to disruption by possible interference
(e.g. from harmonic distortion, reciprocal mixing effects, etc.) depending on
how good the band filters in the antenna are and what interferers are nearby.

Cheers,

Bill

On 27.01.19 05:10, Denny Page via time-nuts wrote:

Hi all,

So far, I am looking at the following antennas:

PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-26N
(https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-reference-antenna-gnss1-tmg-26n/)

PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-40N
(https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-antenna-gnss1-tmg-40n/)

And the following splitters:

GPS Networking ALDCBS1x8 (https://www.gpsnetworking.com/products/aldcbs1x8)

GPS Source S18
(https://www.gpssource.com/collections/gps-splitter/products/s18-1x8-standard-gps-splitter)

I would appreciate any thoughts folk have to offer.

Thanks,
Denny

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Re: [time-nuts] Rooftop antenna and splitter

2019-01-27 Thread Chris Burford

For a 30-35 outdoor cable run go with as big a coax as you can afford. At these
frequencies attenuation becomes even more critical than say an HF application.
There are several online attenuation calculators for various cable
configurations that you might want to play around with:

https://www.timesmicrowave.com/

https://www.pasternack.com/t-rf-microwave-calculators-and-conversions.aspx

Chris

Denny Page via time-nuts wrote:
> Hi all,

So far, I am looking at the following antennas:

PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-26N
(https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-reference-antenna-gnss1-tmg-26n/)

PCTEL GNSS1-TMG-40N
(https://www.pctel.com/antenna-product/global-gnss-timing-antenna-gnss1-tmg-40n/)

And the following splitters:

GPS Networking ALDCBS1x8 (https://www.gpsnetworking.com/products/aldcbs1x8)

GPS Source S18
(https://www.gpssource.com/collections/gps-splitter/products/s18-1x8-standard-gps-splitter)

I would appreciate any thoughts folk have to offer.

Thanks,
Denny

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