Re: [PRE-PROPOSAL] jakarta-tomcat-doc sub-project:WAS:[TomcatDocumentation Redactors To Hire]
Christopher Cain wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Documentation is just as valuable as the software... I could not agree more. What I meant by simple documentation is that I, personally, do not have to requisite expertise to write in-depth docs on the various inner workings of Tomcat. Since there are a fair amount of short docs on specific aspects, such as the NT service, running the connectors in-process, etc., we should keep in mind that the frequency of submissions of such simple documentation by users is inversely proportionate to the complexity of the solution we choose. I actually don't follow the logic here. You said I have no interest in bothering with XML for the purposes of documentation. Writing XML docs is easy. For doing docs compatible with the 'implied' anakia DTD, it's hardly different than HTML. The nice part is that they can be managed and restyled. If I am Joe User, and I put together some notes on how I managed to get a connector configured under Windoze 2000, am I likely to try and learn a complex DTD in order to submit it to the project, especially if I have a rather demanding day job? Probably not. Am I likely to download a program, learn it, and generate the right format? Probably not. Again, I am not sure this parses for me. If you let people submit docs in whatever randomly broken variant of HTML their HTML editor generates, the submissions will be far less useful than just plain text. So have a policy : 0) All documentation is appreciated. 1) If you can, submit docs using our XML DTD. It makes it easy to integrate into the rest of the documentation. Here is a sample template. Fill in the content section. 2) If you can't we still appreciate your effort. Please send us notes and docs in ASCII text format. In the beginning of the Velocity project, we had someone dedicated to doing documentation. He wasn't technical, but was able to grok what needed do be done, and styled and formatted whatever was offered. He even watched the mail lists to get examples. I would be someone might volunteer to be Minister of Documentation... Now if a few people on the list are willing to take text and/or HTML submissions and generate the approved format, then so much the better. Since I have now opened my mouth and made a suggestion on what *others* should do with their OSS time, I suppose I am more or less volunteering to help up in that regard. Great! But my point was simple to caution against an over-engineered approach to documentation without a few people stepping forward to help own Tomcat documentation. Otherwise it will only lead to less documentation. That's not how I read your post. However, I will assume now it was my misunderstanding and leave it at that. In short, let us please continue and decide upon how to proceed. Regardless of Jon's off-topic confusion, I would really like to know how the community would like to see any documentation which I may contribute. Didn't you just say that you are going to do it in HTML and declare victory no matter what? Actually, what I said was that I would declare it a task adequately completed. =) What I meant to imply was that let's not make generating documentation a class project. What you get if you don't is a mess. Like most non-critical software, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter how many bells and whistles the solution provides if no one has the inclination or the time to learn how to use a complex package. We are all programmers, and the easier the solution the more likely it is we will deign to actually bother with documentation. XML isn't that hard. Give it a whirl sometime.. My delivery was admitedly a little pointed and unclear because I was having a little fun with Jon. But that's okay, he loves the abuse. =) I am sure that's why he dedicates so much time to this. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Developing for the web? See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ You have a genius for suggesting things I've come a cropper with!
Re: [PRE-PROPOSAL] jakarta-tomcat-doc sub-project:WAS:[TomcatDocumentation Redactors To Hire]
Christopher Cain wrote: Anyway, since it sounds like Geir has graciously volunteered to help me form the Ministry of Documentation as he so cleverly coined it, the point is more or less moot now. Users can submit plain text if they like, and I certainly have no problems learning whatever the community decides upon. Everybody wins. Let me clarify - that was a typo. What I typed read : I would be someone might volunteer to be Minister of Documentation... and what I was missing was a 't', for it to read I would bet someone might volunteer to be Minister of Documentation... meaning that Tomcat has a *huge* community of users and developers, and someone who is a user of Tomcat and talented at writing might offer to help out like that. As long as the community recognizes that its an important role, all will be well, especially if you can find someone to take the lead and assert direction and guidance to the project. I am willing to help of course as a satisfied Tomcat user, but I cannot be the Minister. I am too swamped by OSS and professional commitments. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Developing for the web? See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ You have a genius for suggesting things I've come a cropper with!
Re: [PRE-PROPOSAL] jakarta-tomcat-doc sub-project : WAS:[TomcatDocumentation Redactors To Hire]
This is deja vu all over again. We should take one copy if this discussion (we had the same thing in Commons, and I am sure it happened everywhere else...), post it somewhere, and people can just submit article numbers or something rather than typing the same arguments over and over. Yes, I know you feel [21], but [17-19,28]. It would be so much quicker... Christopher Cain wrote: being bothered with this thread are both completely irrelevant, Ace. I have no interest in Anakia, and quite frankly, as has been pointed out very astutely by Costin, I have no interest in bothering with XML for the purposes of documentation. I will produce HTML docs with my favorite editor and call it a task adequately completed. Asking anything beyond that will more than likely be more time and effort than I am prepared to invest in simple documentation. Documentation is just as valuable as the software... In short, let us please continue and decide upon how to proceed. Regardless of Jon's off-topic confusion, I would really like to know how the community would like to see any documentation which I may contribute. Didn't you just say that you are going to do it in HTML and declare victory no matter what? geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Developing for the web? See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ You have a genius for suggesting things I've come a cropper with!
Re: [PRE-PROPOSAL] jakarta-tomcat-doc sub-project : WAS: [TomcatDocumentation Redactors To Hire]
Brad Cox wrote: At 10:09 AM -0400 7/2/01, Rob S. wrote: 1) Developers don't write them in lieu of coding. 2) Users don't read them 3...) ? http://www.c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki has a novel way of getting at the problem. Not a panacea obviously, but what is? The one at that address is perl-based; I can provide a tomcat/mod_jk/servlet based one if there's interest. I don't have much wiki experience - however the one I am familiar with is a huge mud ball, contentwise. Would you describe the one above as a good example of wiki docs, or are there better ones? geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Developing for the web? See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ You have a genius for suggesting things I've come a cropper with!
Re: JAVAX.COMPILER...
Pier P. Fumagalli wrote: Neal M Gafter at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pier Fumagalli wrote: Please chip in with your requirements. I have a few, and I'm on the javax.compiler alias at yahoo, better to keep the discussion in the open Also, I hope you don't mind if I forward that link to a couple of people within Sun (handling JSP and Taglibs), and other Apache guys who are dealing with more or less the same problems... The more the merrier. Damn it! I like this guy :) :) :) Really a nice change... Ok, to the others: I just found out that Neal is organizing the effort for coming up with a generic API for a Java Compiler, and he really seems to be a nice guy :) As Apache Software Foundation, many of our components would benefit from such an API, especially JSPs in Tomcat Land, and XSPs in Cocoon land (no need to quote ANT, as that's where I got this stuff from!) and Amber at XIYO.ORG. So, since the more the merrier I believe that people willing to contribute to this discussion, in a _positive_ way, and have something to say should join in... Pier Count me in. Can this be a separate list? -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Developing for the web? See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ You have a genius for suggesting things I've come a cropper with!
Re: RPM for tomcat 3.2.2-1 : any problems reported?
GOMEZ Henri wrote: Just a quick recall of build of rpms. There are built under Redhat 6.2 / Redhat 7.1 (validation) - using latest jikes 1.14 - using latest IBM SDK 1.3 (javadoc) - with latest ant 1.3, xerces-j 1.4, xalan-j 2.1.0 I encounter rare problems when building with jikes, at least one with a previous release of TC 4.0 Also my RPM, install the current jaxp.jar and parser.jar. May be fine to switch now to jaxp/crimson or xerces-j ? I've asked sometimes ago on how to build a crimson RPM (ie where to get the latest sources) but I still wait for replies. Thanks for the reponse. I just installed the RPM, and saw that it *didn't* seem to exhibit the same problems on my machine as it did on the user's that report the problem. I may revisit. It was a very wierd problem - Velocity seemed to work fine when the user was loading templates from files using our 'FileResourceLoader', but when the user switch to loading templates from a jar placed in WEB-INF/lib using the 'ClasspathResourceLoader', which just uses getResourceAsStream() it stopped working. And as I said, the user installed the tgz distro of 3.2.2, moved his webapp over (not rebuild - move), and restarted tomcat, and it worked... I don't know if it was some kind of classpath issue. I have a few comments from the RPM : - would it be possible to add the basic startup/shutdown scripts in a bin/ under /var/tomcat ? The reason I ask is that it might be convenient for people to have available the same scripts uses by other tomcat users, so if someone provides instructions to do something, they can be followed exactly to the letter, which can be important for new or unconfident users. - it automatically overrides things like JAVA_HOME with a new value. I know that it's noted on when the rpm is installed, but its a little presumptive. Thanks for the reply. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Developing for the web? See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ You have a genius for suggesting things I've come a cropper with!
RPM for tomcat 3.2.2-1 : any problems reported?
We just discovered a classloader-related problem with Velocity when used in Tomcat 3.2.2 that seems to have come from the 3.2.2-1 RPM. I have not verified the problem myself. Before I install the RPM and dive in, I wanted to check if there are any known issues with this RPM. The problem is related to classloading - it seems that resources living in a jar in WEB-INF/lib can't be found via ClassLoader classLoader = this.getClass().getClassLoader(); result= classLoader.getResourceAsStream( name ); where 'this' is something is an instance of something found only in a jar in WEB-INF/lib. When the user switched to 3.2.2 from the tgz distro, all worked fine. I am going to look into this tonight, so if anyone has any information that can help or spare me this, I would appreciate it. Thanks geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Developing for the web? See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ You have a genius for suggesting things I've come a cropper with!
Re: Taglibs Article
Nick Bauman wrote: As far as mixing presentation logic and business logic together, well, you can do that with Velocity, too. Although it makes you think longer and harder about it. Here's a recent template snippet I wrote. This is something you wouldn't necessarily be proud of doing with Velocity. 8 #foreach( $event in $events ) $yapper = $meeting.getParticipation( ((MeetingEvent)$event).getFromId() ) #if( $repRole.equals($yapper.getRole() ) $repId = $yapper.getParticipantId() font color=$blackb$yapper.getName()/b/font #else font color=$blueb$yapper.getName()/b/font #end #if ( $event.getClass().getName().equals($chatEventType) ) ((com.webhelp.emeeting.events.ChatEvent)$event).getStoredData() br #else if( $event.getClass().getName().equals($urlPushedEventType) ) a href=((com.webhelp.emeeting.events.URLPushedEvent)$event).getStoredData()((com.webhelp.emeeting.events.URLPushedEvent)$event).getStoredData()/abr #end #end Just out of idle curiousity, why does it look like you are attempting to do a cast with the ((com.webhelp.emeeting.events.URLPushedEvent) $event ) bit? Velocity has no such thing as a cast... - it will introspect and find getStoredData() on it's own... And for fun, can someone translate that into JSP tags to see what it would look like? geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Developing for the web? See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ still climbing up to the shoulders...
Re: Jasper performance
Dennis Doubleday wrote: At 07:51 AM 5/18/01, Geir wrote: Those aren't comparable, 'Velocity templates' and 'general purpose servlet container', because Velocity is just a template tool - you still need the servlet and servlet container. That was exactly my point when I said Velocity doesn't really do anything to prevent DOS attacks, either. Any Velocity app requires a servlet back-end, and if I'm going to host user apps, I'm going to have to let them install servlets, in which case they can put in the same ever-looping code. Definitely. Agreed. There is no silver bullet. I guess the point is that you remove a little of the risk, as a designer can't % while(true); % (although as JSP compilers get better, I am sure this stuff can be found and flagged...) This is not intended to disparage designers : it's just a different talent set. My use of color has been described as dangerous, bordering on criminal :) geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Developing for the web? See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ still climbing up to the shoulders...
Re: Jasper performance
Christopher Kirk wrote: From my view, the problem with JSP-Java-Class isn't performance its debugging. JSP is hard to work with when you make a mistake, very often the error message is less than helpful. A very large step in improving this is by making the line number given by the stack trace match the line numbers of the JSP page. This currently is not the case because of the intermediate step of a java file. It would be beneficial to compile JSP straight to Java, complete with debugging information included in the class file. Really? I was told that it was a complete myth - that *no one* has to debug the Java code - they just debug the JSP code. My JSP experience occurred a few years agoe, and I remember bewildering error messages - however, I just assumed that was straightened out. I am not trying to toss gasoline on what could be another conflagration - I am just generally interested in the subject. Thanks geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Developing for the web? See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ still climbing up to the shoulders...
Re: Jasper performance
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Christopher Kirk wrote: From my view, the problem with JSP-Java-Class isn't performance its debugging. JSP is hard to work with when you make a mistake, very often the error message is less than helpful. A very large step in improving this is by making the line number given by the stack trace match the line numbers of the JSP page. This currently is not the case because of the intermediate step of a java file. It would be beneficial to compile JSP straight to Java, complete with debugging information included in the class file. Really? I was told that it was a complete myth - that *no one* has to debug the Java code - they just debug the JSP code. My JSP experience occurred a few years agoe, and I remember bewildering error messages - however, I just assumed that was straightened out. I am not trying to toss gasoline on what could be another conflagration - I am just generally interested in the subject. In the interest of preemptive self defense, I really meant that. I have had a few, er, discussions on this topic with people, and have had people claim it never happens. It sounds a little disingenuous given the traffic - however, the majority of the thread messages hadn't yet been delivered when I sent it this morning... Ah well. shields up :) geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Developing for the web? See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ still climbing up to the shoulders...
