RE: AW: mailing list or news group??
Frankly it doesn't seem like it would take much work to have BOTH (newsgroup and mailing list). Route messages arriving to one type into the other and vice versa with some back-end software. Most of us are developers here aren't we :) Just a thought. -Devon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 9:02 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: AW: mailing list or news group?? that's not a bad cut - another way of slicing might be - tomcat - config install tomcat - applications It seems to me, that the cross-platform differences aren't enough to warrant splitting it along those lines. That's if we want to do it that way. My vote is for a Mailing list. Means that I ain't going to break out my newsreader... At 5/17/01 1:49:40 PM, Robert Wohlgemuth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: # Hi! # # Mailinglists are very good, but if the amount of messages explode (like in # this mailing list) it should be considered to split the mailinglist into # several more specific ones: # e.g. tomcat + IIS # tomcat + apache (win) # tomcat + apache (linux) # tomcat + security # # and so on. # # I think this would improve the quality of service. # # best regards, # r00bi Roger
RE: AW: mailing list or news group??
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 For what it's worth, I agree strongly with the suggestion of list into : this mailing list) should split into several more specific ones: e.g. tomcat + IIS tomcat + apache (win) tomcat + apache (linux) tomcat + security and so on. but I think splitting it into: tomcat-user@ . . . and tomcat-newbie@ . . . would be unhelpful as very few would use the newbie group - the majority would look for power users on the tomcat-user@ group. Just my 2p. Tom Tom Raftery Zenith Solutions Ltd Unit 6, 4 Dean Street, Cork, Ireland. phone: +353-21-4318300 mobile: +353-87-2506527 web: www.zenith.ie http://www.zenith.ie WAP: www.zenith.ie/wap http://www.zenith.ie/wap email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - -Original Message- From: Paul Friedman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 17 May 2001 21:35 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: AW: mailing list or news group?? Hello All, snip/ this mailing list) should split into several more specific ones: e.g. tomcat + IIS tomcat + apache (win) tomcat + apache (linux) tomcat + security and so on. This isn't a bad idea. I am seconding this motion. I remember a thread a while back that mentioned splitting this mailing-list into tomcat-user@ . . . and tomcat-newbie@ . . . And I remember that this idea had some support. Even a split as simple as this would help the frequent filling of my tomcat inbox. I wonder how much traffic this list gets compared to all the other apache/jakarta lists, if it's unique for its high volume. This is definitely the most active mailing list to which I subscribe. (the Struts project comes close from time to time but not nearly as constant). Perhaps the tomcat-user list could be split into smaller, more specialized lists and a news group web site could aggregate the threads ? pax et bonunm. p. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use http://www.pgp.com iQA/AwUBOwTi+Gy/uj7eqtwJEQLYFACg0PwUuxW23+WfP/T8TKPvxJoU3lYAnR6X stItxSpxH7sHqkrus6JSut6Z =EUmg -END PGP SIGNATURE- This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: mailing list or news group??
On Thu, 17 May 2001, Hassan Siddiqui wrote: Perhaps there is an obvious solution to all this, so please respond if I'm being silly. Ideally I would like to 1. Search through previous messages/faq 2. Post messages Through one interface. One could use the local mail client for both, but this means storing N thousand messages in one's local area to address 1 above, which is certainly not practical. To me, a web-based forum (eg egroups, but with a searchable archive) is best. The best alternative I can think of is to use my mail client to post messages, binning all uncoming messages from tomcat-user to TRASH, and read messages via Philip Mikal's archive at http://mikal.org/interests/java/tomcat/index.jsp (thanks Philip), but this means reading/posting via two different interfaces, so isn't entirely convenient. I'm aware that jGuru have an online forum for tomcat, but this doesn't seem to be the 'official' forum, and is certainly not as heavily used is this mailing list. But perhaps the tomcat team could make that the official one. I see what you're saying, but, ughhh, please, no web-based forums. They are not good for high-volume, everyday reading. The interface is clunky, interactivity is poor, they're slow, and they can be unreliable (much of this having to do with the fact that it's done via HTTP). I'd probably no longer participate if it were moved to a web-based forum (of course, some might consider that a good thing :-). As to the previous poster's comments, I think he's wrong on several points. For one thing, I've been on this list several months, and I don't recall seeing this topic discussed at all, let alone several times. Further, I think he's off as to the capabilities of modern mail readers -- particularly, I think there are many good, modern mail readers that don't have the first and third features he mentions. I do think the volume on this newsgroup is a problem (things are mostly relevant, but the volume is awful high), but I'm not sure what the best solution is. Ralph Einfeldt wrote: This topic has been discussed several times. The reasons you mention can be adressed by a proper organisation of the mail client: - Most clients are able to show the messages by thread. - Most clients are able to filter the messages in a way that all tomcat messages go in a separate folder. - Most clients are able to delete messages with a given age. If your client can't do that, it's time to upgrade. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Dario Novakovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Mai 2001 09:51 An: tomcat user mailing list Betreff: mailing list or news group?? hi people! i've been subscribed to this mailing list for some time and the only conclusion i've got is THIS MAILING LIST IS LOOSING ITS PURPOSE i can't believe that mailing list owners don't realize that news groups is perfect solution for this. what am i supposed to do with 300 or more mails in my mailbox every day? and most of them is i can't unsubscribe. worst of all, messages are not threaded so i have to chase replies through bunch of messages i am not interested in. i asked three questions during last week and i got no answer, i think people able to answer ran away from this mailing list because they can't be bothered any more. please, please switch to news or this list will turn into soap. Milt Epstein Research Programmer Software/Systems Development Group Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: mailing list or news group??
--- Ralph Einfeldt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This topic has been discussed several times. that means subscribers want it and it is time to switch to news and web based forum is not bad idea The reasons you mention can be adressed by a proper organisation of the mail client: - Most clients are able to show the messages by thread. - Most clients are able to filter the messages in a way that all tomcat messages go in a separate folder. - Most clients are able to delete messages with a given age. that is not a solution, sorting by thread is not realiable if not useless in most of the mailclients. storing in separate folder is allright but it takes ages to process all mesage rules (filtering junk included) just to pickup 500 messages everyday. If your client can't do that, it's time to upgrade. do i have to change os too? i think most of the users wants this mailing to be in different form. i see no advantage of mailing list compared to news group and i don't understand why are you so tied to mailing list. i appreciate efforts of mailing list owners but i think i am going to unsubscribe because mailing list is to dificult to handle. if anybody else agree with me, please write, and if there is enough of us we can submit petiton to mailing list owners requsting better quality of service. dario __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
RE: AW: mailing list or news group??
Hi! Mailinglists are very good, but if the amount of messages explode (like in this mailing list) it should be considered to split the mailinglist into several more specific ones: e.g. tomcat + IIS tomcat + apache (win) tomcat + apache (linux) tomcat + security and so on. I think this would improve the quality of service. best regards, r00bi -Ursprungliche Nachricht- Von: Dario Novakovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Mai 2001 14:37 An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: Re: AW: mailing list or news group?? --- Ralph Einfeldt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This topic has been discussed several times. that means subscribers want it and it is time to switch to news and web based forum is not bad idea The reasons you mention can be adressed by a proper organisation of the mail client: - Most clients are able to show the messages by thread. - Most clients are able to filter the messages in a way that all tomcat messages go in a separate folder. - Most clients are able to delete messages with a given age. that is not a solution, sorting by thread is not realiable if not useless in most of the mailclients. storing in separate folder is allright but it takes ages to process all mesage rules (filtering junk included) just to pickup 500 messages everyday. If your client can't do that, it's time to upgrade. do i have to change os too? i think most of the users wants this mailing to be in different form. i see no advantage of mailing list compared to news group and i don't understand why are you so tied to mailing list. i appreciate efforts of mailing list owners but i think i am going to unsubscribe because mailing list is to dificult to handle. if anybody else agree with me, please write, and if there is enough of us we can submit petiton to mailing list owners requsting better quality of service. dario __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
RE: AW: mailing list or news group??
that's not a bad cut - another way of slicing might be - tomcat - config install tomcat - applications It seems to me, that the cross-platform differences aren't enough to warrant splitting it along those lines. That's if we want to do it that way. My vote is for a Mailing list. Means that I ain't going to break out my newsreader... At 5/17/01 1:49:40 PM, Robert Wohlgemuth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: # Hi! # # Mailinglists are very good, but if the amount of messages explode (like in # this mailing list) it should be considered to split the mailinglist into # several more specific ones: # e.g. tomcat + IIS # tomcat + apache (win) # tomcat + apache (linux) # tomcat + security # # and so on. # # I think this would improve the quality of service. # # best regards, # r00bi Roger
Re: AW: mailing list or news group??
Hassan Siddiqui wrote: I vote for a web-based forum - all you need is a web browser, which you all no doubt have or you wouldn't have subscribed to this forum in the first place! I may have a web browser... But I'm somewhat restricted in trying to surf to websites... Our internet connection over here is also rather slow... I vote for the Mailing list...;-) -- /) John Clark Naldoza y Lopez (\ / )Software Design Engineer II ( \ _( (__ Web-Application Development_) )_ (((\ \ /_Cable Modem Network Management System _\ / /))) ( \_/ / NEC Telecom Software Phils., Inc. \ \_/ ) \ / \ / \_/ phone: (+63 32) 233-9142 loc. 3112\_/ / / cellphone: (+63 919) 399-4742 \ \ / / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ \
RE: AW: mailing list or news group??
Title: RE: AW: mailing list or news group?? I vote for the mail list because I keep many messages with good explainations that I don't always remember the exact wording of. this way I can search in my local archive and not have to search the entire tomcat archive. it would be difficult to for me to try to find these messages again in the archives. Saving data from webpages is a pain. I don't want 500 .html files on my machine, and just keeping a list of urls(or thread numbers) doesn't help much. I do have many filters set up that send messages like 'unsubscribe' and 'InterScan' to the trash, and others to topic folders such as 'servlets', 'sessions', 'iis', etc. Since I do not use *nix, I send all those messages to the trash. This makes the list much more manageable since it keeps messages of a thread together and discards messages that I know I have no interest in or knowledge about. my $.02 Charlie -Original Message- From: John Clark Naldoza y Lopez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 9:23 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: AW: mailing list or news group?? Hassan Siddiqui wrote: I vote for a web-based forum - all you need is a web browser, which you all no doubt have or you wouldn't have subscribed to this forum in the first place! I may have a web browser... But I'm somewhat restricted in trying to surf to websites... Our internet connection over here is also rather slow... I vote for the Mailing list...;-) -- /) John Clark Naldoza y Lopez (\ / ) Software Design Engineer II ( \ _( (_ _ Web-Application Development _) )_ (((\ \ /_ Cable Modem Network Management System _\ / /))) ( \_/ / NEC Telecom Software Phils., Inc. \ \_/ ) \ / \ / \ _/ phone: (+63 32) 233-9142 loc. 3112 \_ / / / cellphone: (+63 919) 399-4742 \ \ / / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ \
Re: AW: mailing list or news group??
No problem. But I am not the owner of Jakarta Tomcat. I believe that the owner(s) should put this in SourceForge if they like the idea. That way they can implement what ever parts, including no parts, of SourceForge they believe would be consistent with their mission. Sincerely yours; Mark Mynsted VHA Management Information Systems Client Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] (972) 830 - 0592, Internal x1592 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 5/17/2001 9:03:52 AM Hi Mark and the gang! I vote for a FAQ. While I find that this list is quite well-behaved as to signal-to-noise, there's also a problem with recurrent questions. So, the traffic is uncomfortably high. The advantage of a mailing list is that people in the know lurk around and you get qualified answers. On a newsgroup, you get lots of free-porn messages. On a forum, you get a sore finger. But anyhow, you don't have to trust my opinion or tastes. This is open source: if you like the idea, go ahead and make the web forum! I'm sure we'd all be happy if it served us novice users. Un saludo, Alex. Mark Mynsted wrote: I also vote for a web-based forum. (Such as those provided for free at SourceForge). Sincerely yours; Mark Mynsted VHA Management Information Systems Client Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] (972) 830 - 0592, Internal x1592 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 5/17/2001 8:10:12 AM I vote for a web-based forum - all you need is a web browser, which you all no doubt have or you wouldn't have subscribed to this forum in the first place! Dario Novakovic wrote: if anybody else agree with me, please write, and if there is enough of us we can submit petiton to mailing list owners requsting better quality of service. -- Hassan Siddiqui ESA/SCI/SAX Tel: +31-(0)71-565 5899Room Dd 015, ESTEC Fax: +31-(0)71-565 4690PO Box 299, 2200 AG Noordwijk http://astro.estec.esa.nlThe Netherlands
RE: AW: mailing list or news group??
On Thu, 17 May 2001, Robert Wohlgemuth wrote: Hi! Mailinglists are very good, but if the amount of messages explode (like in this mailing list) it should be considered to split the mailinglist into several more specific ones: e.g. tomcat + IIS tomcat + apache (win) tomcat + apache (linux) tomcat + security and so on. I think this would improve the quality of service. [ ... ] This isn't a bad idea. The key thing (for me, at least) is really to separate things such that one wouldn't end up subscribing to most/all of the lists anyway (e.g. I wouldn't subscribe to a windows list :-). Along with that, the separation would have to be clear, intuitive, and relatively complete. I wonder how much traffic this list gets compared to all the other apache/jakarta lists, if it's unique for its high volume. Milt Epstein Research Programmer Software/Systems Development Group Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: mailing list or news group??
On Thu, 17 May 2001, Dario Novakovic wrote: --- Ralph Einfeldt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This topic has been discussed several times. that means subscribers want it and it is time to switch to news and web based forum is not bad idea That's an interesting -- and quick -- conclusion. You neglect to consider that much of the discussion was from people who wanted to do no such thing. About all you can say from the fact that it has come up is that some people think there is a problem with the current setup. [ ... ] i think most of the users wants this mailing to be in different There you go again speaking for most/all of us. form. i see no advantage of mailing list compared to news group and i don't understand why are you so tied to mailing list. i Well, as I said before, I think there are pros and cons to both mailing lists and newsgroups -- even some that haven't come up in the previous discussion. One thing that has come up is that many people behind firewalls aren't able to receive newsgroups, so they would be totally left out if such a switch were made. And that alone may be sufficient reason to not switch. Another key point is that mailing lists come directly to you, as opposed to newsgroups, which you have to seek out. And many people may not find the high volume as onerous as you do, and/or have come up with ways to manage it better. appreciate efforts of mailing list owners but i think i am going to unsubscribe because mailing list is to dificult to handle. if anybody else agree with me, please write, and if there is enough of us we can submit petiton to mailing list owners requsting better quality of service. Send them money too while you're at it. Milt Epstein Research Programmer Software/Systems Development Group Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: mailing list or news group??
Hello All, snip/ this mailing list) should split into several more specific ones: e.g. tomcat + IIS tomcat + apache (win) tomcat + apache (linux) tomcat + security and so on. This isn't a bad idea. I am seconding this motion. I remember a thread a while back that mentioned splitting this mailing-list into tomcat-user@ . . . and tomcat-newbie@ . . . And I remember that this idea had some support. Even a split as simple as this would help the frequent filling of my tomcat inbox. I wonder how much traffic this list gets compared to all the other apache/jakarta lists, if it's unique for its high volume. This is definitely the most active mailing list to which I subscribe. (the Struts project comes close from time to time but not nearly as constant). Perhaps the tomcat-user list could be split into smaller, more specialized lists and a news group web site could aggregate the threads ? pax et bonunm. p.
RE: AW: mailing list or news group??
From the Jakarta Mailing List page, Turbine User and Ant Developer are the only two other lists that are listed as high traffic. I seem to remember seeing a posting to [EMAIL PROTECTED] listing the number of subscribers to each list (not that subscribers has any bearing to traffic), but Tomcat had something like 3500, Turbine 2700, and nothing else topped 1000. For what its worth, tomcat-user in any form other than email would not include my participation. Also, a number of people don't have any access to newsgroups in the alt.* hierarchy due to ISPs not wanting to worry about which alt groups violate their adult standards. Something to keep in mind if some people out there want to create a new group and don't want to host it themselves. Randy -Original Message- From: Milt Epstein [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 3:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: AW: mailing list or news group?? On Thu, 17 May 2001, Robert Wohlgemuth wrote: Hi! Mailinglists are very good, but if the amount of messages explode (like in this mailing list) it should be considered to split the mailinglist into several more specific ones: e.g. tomcat + IIS tomcat + apache (win) tomcat + apache (linux) tomcat + security and so on. I think this would improve the quality of service. [ ... ] This isn't a bad idea. The key thing (for me, at least) is really to separate things such that one wouldn't end up subscribing to most/all of the lists anyway (e.g. I wouldn't subscribe to a windows list :-). Along with that, the separation would have to be clear, intuitive, and relatively complete. I wonder how much traffic this list gets compared to all the other apache/jakarta lists, if it's unique for its high volume. Milt Epstein Research Programmer Software/Systems Development Group Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
