Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[ON4GPE]

Hi Bob and all,

I'm also interested in your experience on the waller flag.
i don't know what to build , a single loop (rotatable flag) witch is not 
so difficult of course or a waller flag.

So all info is welcome.

sorry for my english, my home language is dutch hihi

Gert
ON4GPE


Op 23/04/2016 om 20:00 schreef Bob K6UJ:

Hi Ken,

Be glad to.  It took me a while to get mine working, found some basic 
things I needed

to do and it now works very well.
First a question.  How far is your flag from the house and also
an antenna tower or other metal structures ?  I had to detune my tower 
it is only 40 feet away from
the Flag.  After this we can go over the construction of the Flag and 
its feed system issues like eliminating
common mode interference.  Maybe it would be best to discuss this 
directly rather than the reflector ?

I can be long winded.  hihi

Bob
K6UJ

On 4/23/16 10:42 AM, Ken K6MR wrote:
Interesting comments about the WF. I recently built one and so far it 
has been a complete failure.


Care to share the details?

Ken K6MR



From: Bob K6UJ<mailto:k...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:30
To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

Bill,

Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !

Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose
hardware on a power pole.
It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller Flag
for receive on 160 and it
was very effective at nulling out the power pole noise.  I read all the
rave reviews on the Pixel and
thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was
also curious how it compared
to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.  The Pixel did provide a nice
null from the power pole noise
but not nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating
160 DX from the band noise level
it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out performed the Pixel.
I could hear DX stations with the
flag and could not hear them at all on the pixel when receiving stations
close to the noise level.
The Pixel would be suited for someone in an apartment or with a small
lot and doesn't have the room
for a larger receiving antenna like the Waller Flag.  It is a compromise
receiving antenna but we have
to work with what we have as far as room for antennas.

73,
Bob
K6UJ



On 4/23/16 9:45 AM, william radice wrote:

 I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is an
all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
BILL

On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:

Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.

73

Rob
K5UJ

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC <n...@comcast.net> wrote:

SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.

I'm out of this discussion.

Regards

JC


In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off 
the

sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special 
preamp

designed for use with the antenna.
<<<
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[Bob K6UJ]

Hi Ken,

Be glad to.  It took me a while to get mine working, found some basic 
things I needed

to do and it now works very well.
First a question.  How far is your flag from the house and also
an antenna tower or other metal structures ?  I had to detune my tower 
it is only 40 feet away from
the Flag.  After this we can go over the construction of the Flag and 
its feed system issues like eliminating
common mode interference.  Maybe it would be best to discuss this 
directly rather than the reflector ?

I can be long winded.  hihi

Bob
K6UJ

On 4/23/16 10:42 AM, Ken K6MR wrote:

Interesting comments about the WF. I recently built one and so far it has been 
a complete failure.

Care to share the details?

Ken K6MR



From: Bob K6UJ<mailto:k...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:30
To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

Bill,

Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !

Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose
hardware on a power pole.
It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller Flag
for receive on 160 and it
was very effective at nulling out the power pole noise.  I read all the
rave reviews on the Pixel and
thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was
also curious how it compared
to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.  The Pixel did provide a nice
null from the power pole noise
but not nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating
160 DX from the band noise level
it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out performed the Pixel.
I could hear DX stations with the
flag and could not hear them at all on the pixel when receiving stations
close to the noise level.
The Pixel would be suited for someone in an apartment or with a small
lot and doesn't have the room
for a larger receiving antenna like the Waller Flag.  It is a compromise
receiving antenna but we have
to work with what we have as far as room for antennas.

73,
Bob
K6UJ



On 4/23/16 9:45 AM, william radice wrote:

 I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is an
all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
BILL

On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:

Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.

73

Rob
K5UJ

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC <n...@comcast.net> wrote:

SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.

I'm out of this discussion.

Regards

JC


In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
designed for use with the antenna.
<<<
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
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_
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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[Ken K6MR]

Interesting comments about the WF. I recently built one and so far it has been 
a complete failure.

Care to share the details?

Ken K6MR



From: Bob K6UJ<mailto:k...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:30
To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

Bill,

Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !

Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose
hardware on a power pole.
It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller Flag
for receive on 160 and it
was very effective at nulling out the power pole noise.  I read all the
rave reviews on the Pixel and
thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was
also curious how it compared
to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.  The Pixel did provide a nice
null from the power pole noise
but not nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating
160 DX from the band noise level
it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out performed the Pixel.
I could hear DX stations with the
flag and could not hear them at all on the pixel when receiving stations
close to the noise level.
The Pixel would be suited for someone in an apartment or with a small
lot and doesn't have the room
for a larger receiving antenna like the Waller Flag.  It is a compromise
receiving antenna but we have
to work with what we have as far as room for antennas.

73,
Bob
K6UJ



On 4/23/16 9:45 AM, william radice wrote:
>  I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is an
> all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
> BILL
>
> On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:
>> Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
>> the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
>> hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
>> he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.
>>
>> 73
>>
>> Rob
>> K5UJ
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC <n...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
>>> performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.
>>>
>>> I'm out of this discussion.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> JC
>>>
>>>
>>> In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
>>> sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
>>> would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
>>> antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
>>> designed for use with the antenna.
>>> <<<
>>> _
>>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>>
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>

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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[Bob K6UJ]

Bill,

Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !

Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose 
hardware on a power pole.
It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller Flag 
for receive on 160 and it
was very effective at nulling out the power pole noise.  I read all the 
rave reviews on the Pixel and
thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was 
also curious how it compared
to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.  The Pixel did provide a nice 
null from the power pole noise
but not nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating 
160 DX from the band noise level
it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out performed the Pixel.  
I could hear DX stations with the
flag and could not hear them at all on the pixel when receiving stations 
close to the noise level.
The Pixel would be suited for someone in an apartment or with a small 
lot and doesn't have the room
for a larger receiving antenna like the Waller Flag.  It is a compromise 
receiving antenna but we have

to work with what we have as far as room for antennas.

73,
Bob
K6UJ



On 4/23/16 9:45 AM, william radice wrote:

 I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is an
all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
BILL

On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:

Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.

73

Rob
K5UJ

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC  wrote:

SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.

I'm out of this discussion.

Regards

JC


In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
designed for use with the antenna.
<<<
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
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_
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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[william radice]

 I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is an 
all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
BILL

On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:
> Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
> the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
> hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
> he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.
>
> 73
>
> Rob
> K5UJ
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC  wrote:
>> SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
>> performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.
>>
>> I'm out of this discussion.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> JC
>>
>>
>> In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
>> sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
>> would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
>> antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
>> designed for use with the antenna.
>> <<<
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[Andrew Ikin]

Mike Waters wrote on April 22.

snip<
1. What does the Pixel Loop do better than these and other loops?
2. What does the Pixel Loop's preamp do to improve the S/N ratio???
3. And what IS its RDF?>

The Pixel loop is balanced, so it will reject locally radiated E-Field noise 
providing this noise is within the near -field of the loop. This feature is 
not available with Vertical and terminated loop antennas. Plus the 20dB 
nulls previously mentioned. Also balanced loops afford very high rejection 
of conducted power-line noise.


The Pixel loop pre-amp. doesn't improve the S/N ratio except that the IMD 
noise floor will be much lower compared to single ended amps. Generally 
speaking the amp. noise of the Pixel loop is on the high side compared to 
Wellbrook Loops.

The RDF is about 5dB.

End -fire phasing will improve the RDF whilst still providing rejection of 
near E-Field noise.  However, one requires very low noise loops or larger 
loops to maintain a good S/N to compensate for phasing signal loss.


73

Andrew Ikin

G8LUG


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[Mike Waters]

I forget what the Pixel Loop looks like. But if it's anything like a tuned,
link-coupled circular loop in the vertical plane with a 20 dB preamp at the
loop, it will have two very deep nulls at a very low angle.

I made three like that ~35 years ago, between 1 and 4 feet in diameter,
made from small coax and two different sizes of CATV hardline. They worked
fantastic for nulling out a single, local noise source! But they were
worthless for incoming sky wave signals, exactly like the models show.

1. What does the Pixel Loop do better than these and other loops?
2. What does the Pixel Loop's preamp do to improve the S/N ratio???
3. And what IS its RDF?

The preamp I used is described here:
www.w0btu.com/W0BTU-broadband-preamps.html

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Rob Atkinson 
wrote:

> ... we tested that antenna and saw its performance first hand...
> K5UJ
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC  wrote:
> > ...   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
> > performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.
> > In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
> > sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
> > would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
> > antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
> > designed for use with the antenna.
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[Rob Atkinson]

Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.

73

Rob
K5UJ

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC  wrote:
> SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
> performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.
>
> I'm out of this discussion.
>
> Regards
>
> JC
>
>
>>>
> In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
> sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
> would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
> antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
> designed for use with the antenna.
> <<<
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[JC]

SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.

I'm out of this discussion.

Regards

JC


>>
In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
designed for use with the antenna.
<<<
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[Rob Atkinson]

>The issue with noise is growing fast and the only way to improve signal to
>noise ratio is more directivity and when possible filter the man made noise
>with a horizontal loop.

A big complication is that almost everyone's circumstances are
different due to variables such as property size.   A horizontal loop
won't work for me (I tried it) because even though most noise is
vertically polarized, the sources are so close they still provide a
significant field strength on an antenna that is orthogonal to the
signal.  And, a horizontal loop is omnidirectional so the ability to
null is lost.

>For 160m you need the horizontal loop high as possible, more information on
>my Webnair, the slides are also available here.

If you can get it high enough to work, then you are probably on a
large enough piece of property to not experience the difficulties I
have on a 50 x 100 foot lot in a municipality.

In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special
preamp designed for use with the antenna.

I've tried a lot of small rx antennas that can fit on my property,
where there isn't even enough room for a flag or pennant.  I've tried
ferrite "loop stick" antennas, small wire dipoles, ham-stick dipoles,
homebrew coaxial small loops, random length wires, and the Pixel loop
is by far the best single solution for someone with severely
restricted space that I have tried.  I didn't intend to post an
advertisement but I was genuinely amazed and all my other rx antennas
are coming down this summer.

73

Rob
K5UJ
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[lennart.m]

Hi all,
Talking about man made noise I would like to point at the NCC-1 from DXE. It
is a noise cancelling unit/Phasing unit which is way better than anything
else on the market. I use it together with a Hi Z RX 4sq and some short
beverages.
73
Len SM7BIC

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] För Arthur Delibert
Skickat: den 21 april 2016 00:00
Till: topband@contesting.com
Ämne: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

You don't need to be in the sticks to put up one or two pennants and get a
lot of mileage out of them.  I have a fairly small suburban back yard; the
other houses are pretty close, and they seem to have every kind of RF
noise-maker imaginable.  Based on where the trees are, I put up two
pennants, one facing east and one facing northwest, each with a DX
Engineering pre-amp at the antenna.  They do a very good job of knocking
down the noise level, and the pre-amps produce very little in the way of AM
BCB mixing products.

I'd like to give you A/B comparisons with other receiving antennas, but I
took them down a long time ago, because they just weren't cutting it.

Art Delibert, KB3FJO

> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:36:26 -0500
> From: ranchoro...@gmail.com
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband:  The band sans noise
> 
> >Q For you folk in the quiet locations, enjoy and protect!
> 
> It's a losing battle.   You can't stop the imported appliance tsunami
> that has been going on for years, or consumers buying them and 
> bringing them home and using them.  You can run around and try, good 
> luck with that, and invest hours and days of your ham hobby time on 
> that instead of what is enjoyable with your remaining years, and maybe 
> have a few successes, out of many slammed doors, but for every success 
> there will be 10 more gadgets coming to a house near you and getting 
> fired up.  That ship has sailed--the FCC in the U.S. has washed their 
> hands pretty much, similar to their abandonment of CB enforcement.
> Small government and unfettered commerce have won and to be clear, I 
> am not generally opposed to small gov't and commerce, but in this case 
> hams took a hit and that's life.
> 
> It pays to focus on what you CAN control, which is the stuff on your 
> property, and RF coming on to your property.  Unless you are not tied 
> to a job and can move (the only really effective solution) you have to 
> break out the wallet and spend some doe re mi on a pair of Pixel Loop 
> antennas and one of the DX Engineering phasing boxes.  If you have 
> room for anything bigger and farther apart like Flags, Pennants, 
> beverages and so on, you are probably already in the sticks and don't 
> have as much of a problem.
> 
> 73
> 
> Rob
> K5UJ
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
  
_
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_
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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[Arthur Delibert]

You don't need to be in the sticks to put up one or two pennants and get a lot 
of mileage out of them.  I have a fairly small suburban back yard; the other 
houses are pretty close, and they seem to have every kind of RF noise-maker 
imaginable.  Based on where the trees are, I put up two pennants, one facing 
east and one facing northwest, each with a DX Engineering pre-amp at the 
antenna.  They do a very good job of knocking down the noise level, and the 
pre-amps produce very little in the way of AM BCB mixing products.

I'd like to give you A/B comparisons with other receiving antennas, but I took 
them down a long time ago, because they just weren't cutting it.

Art Delibert, KB3FJO

> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:36:26 -0500
> From: ranchoro...@gmail.com
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband:  The band sans noise
> 
> >Q For you folk in the quiet locations, enjoy and protect!
> 
> It's a losing battle.   You can't stop the imported appliance tsunami
> that has been going on for years, or consumers buying them and
> bringing them home and using them.  You can run around and try, good
> luck with that, and invest hours and days of your ham hobby time on
> that instead of what is enjoyable with your remaining years, and maybe
> have a few successes, out of many slammed doors, but for every success
> there will be 10 more gadgets coming to a house near you and getting
> fired up.  That ship has sailed--the FCC in the U.S. has washed their
> hands pretty much, similar to their abandonment of CB enforcement.
> Small government and unfettered commerce have won and to be clear, I
> am not generally opposed to small gov't and commerce, but in this case
> hams took a hit and that's life.
> 
> It pays to focus on what you CAN control, which is the stuff on your
> property, and RF coming on to your property.  Unless you are not tied
> to a job and can move (the only really effective solution) you have to
> break out the wallet and spend some doe re mi on a pair of Pixel Loop
> antennas and one of the DX Engineering phasing boxes.  If you have
> room for anything bigger and farther apart like Flags, Pennants,
> beverages and so on, you are probably already in the sticks and don't
> have as much of a problem.
> 
> 73
> 
> Rob
> K5UJ
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
  
_
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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[Gary Smith]

Greg, 

This is the main reason why I am selling 
my house on the ocean shore front and 
relocating to a rural area where I can 
have quieter conditions. I'm taking my 
radio with me everywhere I think is worth 
a look and will put up a long random wire 
and listen with the K3s both day and night 
for several days, just to be sure it truly 
is the "right" spot.

Good luck on your antenna search. I can 
tell you the HI-Z triangular is an 
absolute asset to my RX.

73,

Gary
KA1J

> 
> Always I have wanted to permamanently run Topband, but  there is just too 
> much QRM and RFI at BOTH my station locations. 
> 
> After a late season ice-storm took out power for much of my area last 
> weekend, I was SHOCKED at the activity and weak signals that were now heard. 
> Totally amazing- but also a disappointment -as it proved just  how much of 
> our S9  hash-noise is manmade, electrically generated or supported  RFI from 
> "inferior design" devices, bad power line connections etc. It is not 
> just atmospheric.
> 
> Are quiet magnetic loops the answer? I can't believe they will come close to 
> providing what I heard ( or didn't hear!) , but am open to advice. Is it 
> worth having a 160m system on standby for those opportune times when an 
> electrical blackout gives me my bands back? I wonder.
> 
> Q For you folk in the quiet locations, enjoy and protect! 
> 
> But it was almost a religious experience hearing a 160 metre band full of 
> signals over an S-0 background noise. Yes. All other bands from 70 KHz to UHF 
> were, equally ethierial! Spectacular experi
> Z
> 
>  
> 
>  Tthanks for letting me share my awakening.! Oh, if only it were like this 
> all the time!
> 
> Greg 
> VE3FAX
> FN04 
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> 



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[shristov]

JC  wrote:

> http://wwrof.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/WWROF-WEBNAIR-RX-Antennas-for-a-Small-Lot-.pdf


The file starts with some incorrect statements:

   "All we need is 3 dB SNR for CW and 8 dB for SSB"

   such a statement is completely meaningless if the measurement bandwidth is 
not stated
   "3 dB SNR" with BW=3000 Hz becomes 18 dB SNR with BW=100 Hz,
   with readability practically unchanged


  "Signal 30db above noise"  (pointing to the spectrum diagram)

  This is comparing apples to oranges.
  The difference depends on the measurement bandwidth, as above,
  so "30 dB" is meaningless if the measurement bandwidth is not stated


73,

Sinisa  YT1NT, VE3EA
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[JC]

Correct link  for the pdf file, It has more slides not covered during the
time limited webinar 


http://wwrof.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/WWROF-WEBNAIR-RX-Antennas-for-a-
Small-Lot-.pdf


JC



-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of JC
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 10:36 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

Hi Guys


The issue with noise is growing fast and the only way to improve signal to
noise ratio is more directivity and when possible filter the man made noise
with a horizontal loop.

My last presentation is available at www.wwrof.org   webinar archive.

http://wwrof.org/category/webinar-archive/

One single horizontal loop can make a difference between QSO and no QSO in
all bands. Even a not well implemented loop like the one below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRZyKrsF1CQ

For 160m you need the horizontal loop high as possible, more information on
my Webnair, the slides are also available here.


http://wwrof.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/WWROF-WEBNAIR-RX-Antennas-for-a-
Small-Lot-.pdf

I'm in a city lot, suburb of Ft Lauderdale Fl, VK0EK. 3D0A, C92, VP8's
FT4JA, and almost every active station on 160m are in my log, over 300
countries heard on 160m and #286 worked since 2006, and HWF since 2010.

Vertical polarization is not a solution for urban 160m stations to fight man
made noise.

Regards
JC
N4IS



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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[JC]

Hi Guys


The issue with noise is growing fast and the only way to improve signal to
noise ratio is more directivity and when possible filter the man made noise
with a horizontal loop.

My last presentation is available at www.wwrof.org   webinar archive.

http://wwrof.org/category/webinar-archive/

One single horizontal loop can make a difference between QSO and no QSO in
all bands. Even a not well implemented loop like the one below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRZyKrsF1CQ

For 160m you need the horizontal loop high as possible, more information on
my Webnair, the slides are also available here.


http://wwrof.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/WWROF-WEBNAIR-RX-Antennas-for-a-
Small-Lot-.pdf

I'm in a city lot, suburb of Ft Lauderdale Fl, VK0EK. 3D0A, C92, VP8's
FT4JA, and almost every active station on 160m are in my log, over 300
countries heard on 160m and #286 worked since 2006, and HWF since 2010.

Vertical polarization is not a solution for urban 160m stations to fight man
made noise.

Regards
JC
N4IS



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[Bill Cromwell]

Hi Rob,

I suppose I could just scrap out the gear and put more energy into my 
music. I play acoustic instruments (no electricity needed) at some 
dances and other community events along with several other musicians and 
acoustic instruments. In that role we *ARE* the QRM!  And 
about the remaining time..I bought a big honking, zero-turn mower and 
even though I now mow the grass for three of my neighbors it takes me 
minutes instead of hours. I'll be using my remaining time for things 
that are a lot more fun. Ham radio is still in the lineup here :)


BTW..some of the DSP and SDR software (even without SDR hardware) can 
help pick the signals from between the spikes on the raucous QRM. I get 
some crap in here that looks like the Burger King's crown on the display 
with perfectly good signals in between the "ornaments". Hint - hint.


73,

Bill  KU8H


On 04/20/2016 09:36 AM, Rob Atkinson wrote:

Q For you folk in the quiet locations, enjoy and protect!

It's a losing battle.   You can't stop the imported appliance tsunami
that has been going on for years, or consumers buying them and
bringing them home and using them.  You can run around and try, good
luck with that, and invest hours and days of your ham hobby time on
that instead of what is enjoyable with your remaining years, and maybe
have a few successes, out of many slammed doors, but for every success
there will be 10 more gadgets coming to a house near you and getting
fired up.  That ship has sailed--the FCC in the U.S. has washed their
hands pretty much, similar to their abandonment of CB enforcement.
Small government and unfettered commerce have won and to be clear, I
am not generally opposed to small gov't and commerce, but in this case
hams took a hit and that's life.

It pays to focus on what you CAN control, which is the stuff on your
property, and RF coming on to your property.  Unless you are not tied
to a job and can move (the only really effective solution) you have to
break out the wallet and spend some doe re mi on a pair of Pixel Loop
antennas and one of the DX Engineering phasing boxes.  If you have
room for anything bigger and farther apart like Flags, Pennants,
beverages and so on, you are probably already in the sticks and don't
have as much of a problem.

73

Rob
K5UJ
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: The band sans noise

[Rob Atkinson]

>Q For you folk in the quiet locations, enjoy and protect!

It's a losing battle.   You can't stop the imported appliance tsunami
that has been going on for years, or consumers buying them and
bringing them home and using them.  You can run around and try, good
luck with that, and invest hours and days of your ham hobby time on
that instead of what is enjoyable with your remaining years, and maybe
have a few successes, out of many slammed doors, but for every success
there will be 10 more gadgets coming to a house near you and getting
fired up.  That ship has sailed--the FCC in the U.S. has washed their
hands pretty much, similar to their abandonment of CB enforcement.
Small government and unfettered commerce have won and to be clear, I
am not generally opposed to small gov't and commerce, but in this case
hams took a hit and that's life.

It pays to focus on what you CAN control, which is the stuff on your
property, and RF coming on to your property.  Unless you are not tied
to a job and can move (the only really effective solution) you have to
break out the wallet and spend some doe re mi on a pair of Pixel Loop
antennas and one of the DX Engineering phasing boxes.  If you have
room for anything bigger and farther apart like Flags, Pennants,
beverages and so on, you are probably already in the sticks and don't
have as much of a problem.

73

Rob
K5UJ
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[Bill Cromwell]

Hi Greg,

My noise is not S-9 - at least not over the entire band nor constant 
around the clock. I do have some manmade noise issues. In my case a 
mag-loop antenna on receive has been a lot of help. I doubt there is any 
perfect antenna. But it won't cost you a lot to brew a mag loop from 
some soft drawn copper tubing, a half decent variable cap and some wire, 
glue, screws, plastic or wood supports. Just whiz it together for a 
'proof of concept' at your location. If it seems useful build a better 
version or reinforce the one you have made. Things need to be 
weatherproof to live outdoors very long.


The nulls are the main 'feature' of those antennas and can be sharp and 
deep looking through the donut on each side. They are fairly narrow but 
if you rotate the antenna and/or tilt it the nulls will be *OBVIOUS*. 
Due to the size (about five or six feet diameter for top band) the 
signal strength will be less than for a five element yagi at 150 feet. I 
have not needed a preamp with my radios to hear some DX. The tuning is 
very touchy too. Without a reduction gear (or similar) drive you'll need 
a light tough on the tuning cap and you may need to hold your breath to 
get it right. I have a dual gang tuning cap with the reduction gear 
built in and that helps a lot.


So spend an afternoon putting something together on the cheap and try 
it. You won't have much to lose (the materials can be re-used) and it 
may help you.


73,

Bill  KU8H


On 04/20/2016 07:38 AM, Greg's wrote:

Always I have wanted to permamanently run Topband, but  there is just too much 
QRM and RFI at BOTH my station locations.

After a late season ice-storm took out power for much of my area last weekend, I was 
SHOCKED at the activity and weak signals that were now heard. Totally amazing- but also a 
disappointment -as it proved just  how much of our S9  hash-noise is manmade, 
electrically generated or supported  RFI from "inferior design" devices, bad 
power line connections etc. It is not
just atmospheric.

Are quiet magnetic loops the answer? I can't believe they will come close to 
providing what I heard ( or didn't hear!) , but am open to advice. Is it worth 
having a 160m system on standby for those opportune times when an electrical 
blackout gives me my bands back? I wonder.

Q For you folk in the quiet locations, enjoy and protect!

But it was almost a religious experience hearing a 160 metre band full of 
signals over an S-0 background noise. Yes. All other bands from 70 KHz to UHF 
were, equally ethierial! Spectacular experi
Z

  


  Tthanks for letting me share my awakening.! Oh, if only it were like this all 
the time!

Greg
VE3FAX
FN04




_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: The band sans noise

[Greg's]

Always I have wanted to permamanently run Topband, but  there is just too much 
QRM and RFI at BOTH my station locations. 

After a late season ice-storm took out power for much of my area last weekend, 
I was SHOCKED at the activity and weak signals that were now heard. Totally 
amazing- but also a disappointment -as it proved just  how much of our S9  
hash-noise is manmade, electrically generated or supported  RFI from "inferior 
design" devices, bad power line connections etc. It is not 
just atmospheric.

Are quiet magnetic loops the answer? I can't believe they will come close to 
providing what I heard ( or didn't hear!) , but am open to advice. Is it worth 
having a 160m system on standby for those opportune times when an electrical 
blackout gives me my bands back? I wonder.

Q For you folk in the quiet locations, enjoy and protect! 

But it was almost a religious experience hearing a 160 metre band full of 
signals over an S-0 background noise. Yes. All other bands from 70 KHz to UHF 
were, equally ethierial! Spectacular experi
Z

 

 Tthanks for letting me share my awakening.! Oh, if only it were like this all 
the time!

Greg 
VE3FAX
FN04 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband