Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[Raoul Coetzee via Topband]

 Yes Rob, my TX vertical feedpoint was closer to 7 ohm before it being 
transformed to 50 ohm by means of a auto transformer style bottom coil and tap.
I have used a big fat relay with massive silver contacts, (it was used in a UPS 
to switch battery banks)  but with the actuator coil wires fed trough a choke. 
So the whole relay was at RF potential, that way you do not need to worry about 
coil/contact isolation spacing.
Raoul ZS1C

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 2:38:50 PM GMT+2, Rob Atkinson 
 wrote:  
 
 Actually, if you have a quarter wave driven element and you are
disconnecting it at the feedpoint, your relay concern shouldn't be
voltage so much as current.  Fast switching and large contact surface
is more important than voltage handling.

73
Rob
K5UJ
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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[Rob Atkinson]

Actually, if you have a quarter wave driven element and you are
disconnecting it at the feedpoint, your relay concern shouldn't be
voltage so much as current.   Fast switching and large contact surface
is more important than voltage handling.

73
Rob
K5UJ
_
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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[Victor Goncharsky via Topband]

HI Pete,
I use Russian B1B vacuum relays for all RF switching, for high power 160m 
switching B2B vacuum relays are recommended. Hope you can get them there.
Good luck.


>Вторник, 10 декабря 2019, 16:31 UTC от N4ZR :
>
>Now that I've determined that my transmitting antenna must be 
>disconnected, in order for my K9AY loop to work successfully, can anyone 
>tell me what sort of ratings are required for the relay required to do 
>this remotely?  I'm assuming a vacuum relay, but in looking at the MGS4U 
>list of available SPST relays, there is a huge price range.  What sort 
>of numbers should I be looking for, given 1.5 KW and location at the 
>base of a quarter-wave inverted L.
>
>I also note that most of the relays listed have  26.5 volt coils.  Can 
>anyone recommend an inexpensive 24-26 volt supply that I can use?
>
>73, Pete N4ZR
>Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
>at < http://reversebeacon.net >, now
>spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
>For spots, please use your favorite
>"retail" DX cluster.
>
>
>_
>Searchable Archives:  http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector


-- 
73, Victor Goncharsky US5WE/K1WE (UW5W in VHF contests, ex UB5WE), P.E.
UARL Technical and VHF Committies
DXCC Honor Roll #1 (Mixed, Phone), 10BDXCC, 8BWAS
DXCC card checker (160 meters).
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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[N4ZR]

Thanks everyone who responded - I think I know enough to proceed.

I had wondered about the need to open the shield side of the coax - I 
have 16 turns of RG-400 on a Type 31 core right at the base of the 
inverted L.  If the darned rain/snow ever stops, I think I'll 
temporarily re-connect the shield and compare, but my expectation is 
that a single pole will do the trick.


73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at , now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 12/10/2019 1:54 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

The need to disconnect the feedline shield is to block common mode signals.
A K9AY approved **EXCELLENT** common mode block (not a regular "balun" with
likely awful blocking on 160m), or (GASP) an isolation transformer will
take care.

In the case quoted, with the coax center contductor opened, the
stinky-on-160-blocking "balun" is how the noise gets in. Further since Pete
saw a 4 S unit drop by simply disconnecting the TX wire, it's likely that
his common-mode provision, even if not intended as such, would appear to be
satisfactory, and therefore a double pole relay (lot more expensive) is not
called for.

73, Guy K2AV


On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 7:30 AM Rob Atkinson  wrote:


If you open the tx antenna feedline for rx, from my experience, you
need to completely open the entire feedline, namely the coaxial cable
shield as well as the center conductor.   coaxial relays that maintain
conductivity of the shield when N.O. won't detune/isolate the tx
antenna.  I use a pair of open frame relays for this.  Fortunately on
1800 kc the Z bump is almost nonexistent.   What will govern your
choice of relay is tx power and tx time, and whether or not you
require QSK.  I do not, but if you do, you may have to consider
something like multiple paralleled reed relays tor speed and power, or
vacuum relays.


73
Rob
K5UJ
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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

The need to disconnect the feedline shield is to block common mode signals.
A K9AY approved **EXCELLENT** common mode block (not a regular "balun" with
likely awful blocking on 160m), or (GASP) an isolation transformer will
take care.

In the case quoted, with the coax center contductor opened, the
stinky-on-160-blocking "balun" is how the noise gets in. Further since Pete
saw a 4 S unit drop by simply disconnecting the TX wire, it's likely that
his common-mode provision, even if not intended as such, would appear to be
satisfactory, and therefore a double pole relay (lot more expensive) is not
called for.

73, Guy K2AV


On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 7:30 AM Rob Atkinson  wrote:

> If you open the tx antenna feedline for rx, from my experience, you
> need to completely open the entire feedline, namely the coaxial cable
> shield as well as the center conductor.   coaxial relays that maintain
> conductivity of the shield when N.O. won't detune/isolate the tx
> antenna.  I use a pair of open frame relays for this.  Fortunately on
> 1800 kc the Z bump is almost nonexistent.   What will govern your
> choice of relay is tx power and tx time, and whether or not you
> require QSK.  I do not, but if you do, you may have to consider
> something like multiple paralleled reed relays tor speed and power, or
> vacuum relays.
>
>
> 73
> Rob
> K5UJ
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> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Pete,

See RF parts.com, search vacuum relay VC2T-13.2.  SPDT will allow you to
change your mind about what state you want with no voltage to winding. And
you will not need to buy a 24 volt power supply.

Rated 12 kV will handle anything ham QRO. These are new, currentLy
manufactured items.

73, and Happy Holidays,

Guy K2AV

On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 11:31 AM N4ZR  wrote:

> Now that I've determined that my transmitting antenna must be
> disconnected, in order for my K9AY loop to work successfully, can anyone
> tell me what sort of ratings are required for the relay required to do
> this remotely?  I'm assuming a vacuum relay, but in looking at the MGS4U
> list of available SPST relays, there is a huge price range.  What sort
> of numbers should I be looking for, given 1.5 KW and location at the
> base of a quarter-wave inverted L.
>
> I also note that most of the relays listed have  26.5 volt coils.  Can
> anyone recommend an inexpensive 24-26 volt supply that I can use?
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
> at , now
> spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
>
>
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> Reflector
>
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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[WW3S]

You should probably look for a double pole, I’ve been told you need to open the 
shield as wellI’ve had similar interference on my hi z array. I’ve opted to 
go a different route 

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 10, 2019, at 11:30 AM, N4ZR  wrote:
> 
> Now that I've determined that my transmitting antenna must be disconnected, 
> in order for my K9AY loop to work successfully, can anyone tell me what sort 
> of ratings are required for the relay required to do this remotely?  I'm 
> assuming a vacuum relay, but in looking at the MGS4U list of available SPST 
> relays, there is a huge price range.  What sort of numbers should I be 
> looking for, given 1.5 KW and location at the base of a quarter-wave inverted 
> L.
> 
> I also note that most of the relays listed have  26.5 volt coils.  Can anyone 
> recommend an inexpensive 24-26 volt supply that I can use?
> 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
> at , now
> spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
> 
> 
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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[N4ZR]

Now that I've determined that my transmitting antenna must be 
disconnected, in order for my K9AY loop to work successfully, can anyone 
tell me what sort of ratings are required for the relay required to do 
this remotely?  I'm assuming a vacuum relay, but in looking at the MGS4U 
list of available SPST relays, there is a huge price range.  What sort 
of numbers should I be looking for, given 1.5 KW and location at the 
base of a quarter-wave inverted L.


I also note that most of the relays listed have  26.5 volt coils.  Can 
anyone recommend an inexpensive 24-26 volt supply that I can use?


73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at , now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.


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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop not performing

[Michael Walker]

Hi Pete

That is one interesting find.  I'm going to have to do some tests and see
if I have the same issue.

My RX antenna and TX antennas are about 2 wavelengths apart and both are
very well choked into a 2x8 switch.

I am going to have to give this some thought.

73, Mike va3mw

On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 4:26 PM N4ZR  wrote:

> Thank you to everyone who responded to my query.  The transmitting
> antenna was indeed coupling both noise and signals into my K9AY loops.
> I disconnected it at the feedpoint and the noise level on the RX antenna
> dropped 4 S-units!  Fooling around today in steady rain (which may
> affect the quality of ground, I'd expect).  I  was amazed, playing with
> the high end of the AM broadcast band, to be able to select one of two
> stations on the same frequency, just by switching the direction of the
> loop array.  I can hardly wait for European sunrise.
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
> at , now
> spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
>
>
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> Reflector
>
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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop not performing

[N4ZR]

Thank you to everyone who responded to my query.  The transmitting 
antenna was indeed coupling both noise and signals into my K9AY loops.  
I disconnected it at the feedpoint and the noise level on the RX antenna 
dropped 4 S-units!  Fooling around today in steady rain (which may 
affect the quality of ground, I'd expect).  I  was amazed, playing with 
the high end of the AM broadcast band, to be able to select one of two 
stations on the same frequency, just by switching the direction of the 
loop array.  I can hardly wait for European sunrise.


73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at , now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.


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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[Raoul Coetzee via Topband]

 I use a a relay to disconnect to the vertical portion just above the bottom 
matching coil, keeping all else connected.
 I do not understand why  the shield should be disconnected ? 
If it carries RF back it could be decoupled by ground rods to shield or 
chokes.Bu if he top section is open circuit, there would not be any signal to 
carry back in the first place.
Raoul ZS1C

On Sunday, December 8, 2019, 2:30:00 PM GMT+2, Rob Atkinson 
 wrote:  
 
 If you open the tx antenna feedline for rx, from my experience, you
need to completely open the entire feedline, namely the coaxial cable
shield as well as the center conductor.  coaxial relays that maintain
conductivity of the shield when N.O. won't detune/isolate the tx
antenna.  I use a pair of open frame relays for this.  Fortunately on
1800 kc the Z bump is almost nonexistent.  What will govern your
choice of relay is tx power and tx time, and whether or not you
require QSK.  I do not, but if you do, you may have to consider
something like multiple paralleled reed relays tor speed and power, or
vacuum relays.


73
Rob
K5UJ
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Topband: K9AY Loop not performing

[N4ZR]

Thanks to everyone who responded.  I'm going to begin by disconnecting 
my transmit antenna at the feedpoint, as suggested by W3LPL and others, 
to see if it is the presence of the transmitting antenna (an inverted L) 
that is the problem.  Lots of other things to try, too.


--

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at , now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[Peter Bertini]

I had the same problem with my K9AY loop. Despite being
in a wooded area that seemed to have very damp soil the
earth conductivity was poorer than I had expected.

I added eight short radials under the loops and that made a
huge improvement. I also added some cheap CATV ground
rods to tie the ends of the radials down.  Nulls are fairly
decent at present, but I may try adding some cheap chicken
wire under the loops for the heck of it, as an experiment.
My loops are near wire fencing for a field for a local horse
farm, and the tower and inverted L are about 40 and 60
feet, respectively, away.

I am not sure on the vintage of your loops, but the newer
versions have adjustable termination resistor choices...
I have read where others have found much better results
by changing the terminating resistor to match their own
soil conditions.  Unfortunately mine was a very early
product and only had a few fixed values that is not
remotely selectable.

I think I am blessed with a fairly quiet rural location,
since generally stations are equal on either
the K2AV system compared to the loops.

Pete W1BR
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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[Rob Atkinson]

If you open the tx antenna feedline for rx, from my experience, you
need to completely open the entire feedline, namely the coaxial cable
shield as well as the center conductor.   coaxial relays that maintain
conductivity of the shield when N.O. won't detune/isolate the tx
antenna.  I use a pair of open frame relays for this.  Fortunately on
1800 kc the Z bump is almost nonexistent.   What will govern your
choice of relay is tx power and tx time, and whether or not you
require QSK.  I do not, but if you do, you may have to consider
something like multiple paralleled reed relays tor speed and power, or
vacuum relays.


73
Rob
K5UJ
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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[pa5mw--- via Topband]

Hi Pete,

Over some 20 years have setup some at least 15 K9AY's at about 10 different 
locations.
On some locations it worked better than others. There is always 15 dB F/B at 
minimum.
Top height, length of the loops, optimal balanced corner positions; never 
noticed anything critical. This thing is a superb starter RX antenna.
The max F/B  I measured was 42dB, both measured with a Perseus SDR.
Above spec are achieved in my puny backyard where the K9AY's corners are close 
(as in 1 to 10ft)to either a metal fence, my shack(and alu windows) and the 
neighbors TV. 
I use two 8ft copper ground rods. Have tried radials  and chicken mesh on the 
floor additionally, but that did not help. Guess my type of soil is already 
good.

See pictures for the simple setup and F/B performance both on 160m and 1400 kHz 
at:  flickr.com/photos/pa5mw/albums/72157688739777191


73

Mark PA5MW


-Original Message-
From: Topband  On Behalf Of N4ZR
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2019 22:14 PM
To: topband reflector 
Subject: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

I just put up a K9AY loop, using the Array Solutions control boxes, and am 
pretty disappointed.  There is no audible or visible difference in the noise 
level, while the received signal strength is down whenever I A/B it with my 
inverted L.  There does seem to be a little directivity, but not much, and 
subjectively I find that weak signals are all heard better on the transmit 
antenna. Judging by results in the current contest, I've got an alligator on my 
hands!

The preamp amplifies by a couple of S units, and I can hear the relays out at 
the antenna switching when I change directions or termination resistances, 
although gain and directivity do not change noticeably. 
 From this I assume there's nothing wrong with the electronics

I tried to do my installation "by the book."  Ground is provided at the base of 
the antenna by a 6-foot ground rod.  There are two common-mode chokes on the 
feedline, one at each end of approximately 100 feet of RG-6.  About the only 
deviation from the published design is that the top of the crossed loops is at 
28 feet, not 25, and the loops have their bases more or less horizontal, where 
the published designs show them tilting upward approximately 15-20 degrees from 
the center in each direction.  I can make that happen with some more rigging, 
but before I do that, I'm looking for suggestions of other places to look for 
the problem.

-- 

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[Dan Maguire via Topband]

As others have said, a good *RF* ground is a requirement.  Here's a comparison 
of modeled elevation patterns for a K9AY loop with a very good (low impedance) 
RF ground vs one with a very poor (high impedance) RF ground.

https://i.postimg.cc/N0MqJg0x/image.png

The trick to modeling a good ground while at the same time using EZNEC "High 
Accuracy" (Sommerfeld-Norton) ground is explained in EZNEC Help section 
"Connecting to High Accuracy Ground".

For AutoEZ users, *right*-click on http://ac6la.com/adhoc/K9AY_Loop.weq , 
choose "Save file", download to your computer, then use the AutoEZ "Open Model 
File" button.  The K9AY_Loop.weq model makes it easy to adjust the length of 
the very low height radials which are used to simulate a good ground 
connection, as mentioned in the EZNEC help.

Dan, AC6LA
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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[James Wolf]

Pete,

The K9AY will basically work provided it has an adequate ground system.  It 
does need a good ground as that is the other half of the antenna, so adding 8 
radials under it should help if that is a problem.  The radials don't have to 
go much beyond the physical dimensions of the antenna to work well.   
Frank's mention of the transmit antenna re-radiating is something that many 
miss. That can totally wreck any receive antenna.   
If you need help on detuning the transmit antenna, just yell as many in this 
group have done it.

You can fully verify that the relay switching is working correctly.  Go to 
https://wolfrfsystems.com/  Look in the FAQ and download the PDF file on 
troubleshooting.

Jim - KR9U




-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N4ZR
Sent: Saturday, December 7, 2019 4:14 PM
To: topband reflector 
Subject: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

I just put up a K9AY loop, using the Array Solutions control boxes, and am 
pretty disappointed.  There is no audible or visible difference in the noise 
level, while the received signal strength is down whenever I A/B it with my 
inverted L.  There does seem to be a little directivity, but not much, and 
subjectively I find that weak signals are all heard better on the transmit 
antenna. Judging by results in the current contest, I've got an alligator on my 
hands!

The preamp amplifies by a couple of S units, and I can hear the relays out at 
the antenna switching when I change directions or termination resistances, 
although gain and directivity do not change noticeably. 
 From this I assume there's nothing wrong with the electronics

I tried to do my installation "by the book."  Ground is provided at the base of 
the antenna by a 6-foot ground rod.  There are two common-mode chokes on the 
feedline, one at each end of approximately 100 feet of RG-6.  About the only 
deviation from the published design is that the top of the crossed loops is at 
28 feet, not 25, and the loops have their bases more or less horizontal, where 
the published designs show them tilting upward approximately 15-20 degrees from 
the center in each direction.  I can make that happen with some more rigging, 
but before I do that, I'm looking for suggestions of other places to look for 
the problem.

-- 

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[donovanf]

Hi Pete, 


If your K9AY is near your transmitting antenna, it may be re-radiating 
signals into the K9AY loops. You may need to use a relay to detune 
the transmitting antenna while receiving, typically my lifting the connection 
to between the coax and the antenna 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 


- Original Message -

From: "Alan Swinger"  
To: "Lloyd - N9LB" , "N4ZR" , "topband 
reflector"  
Sent: Saturday, December 7, 2019 10:19:51 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing 

I also put out radials on my K9AY loop and also did what ON4UN suggested re 
common mode - per his book - another grd rod about 8 ft (or so) from the loop 
base with coax shield grounded to it. I also used a coax piece w/ ferrite beads 
(from DX Eng) to connect from the ant to the grd rod and feedline. It has 
worked as advertised for many yrs. If not done, suggest chck it w/ AM bcst 
stations for directivity. 
73 - Alan K9MBQ 


-Original Message- 
>From: Lloyd - N9LB  
>Sent: Dec 7, 2019 4:26 PM 
>To: 'N4ZR' , 'topband reflector'  
>Subject: Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing 
> 
>Pete, I had the very same problem here. 
> 
>I have very poor soil, mostly a painted on layer of top soil, several inches 
>of clay, a couple of feet of sand, and then bedrock. 
> 
>Gary - K9AY told me that for poor soil conditions I needed to put a ground 
>radial directly under each loop and attach them to the center ground rod. 
>Length of the radials should extend a few feet past the edge of each loop. 
> 
>73 
> 
>Lloyd - N9LB 
> 
>-Original Message- 
>From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N4ZR 
>Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2019 3:14 PM 
>To: topband reflector  
>Subject: Topband: K9ay loop not performing 
> 
>I just put up a K9AY loop, using the Array Solutions control boxes, and am 
>pretty disappointed. There is no audible or visible difference in the noise 
>level, while the received signal strength is down whenever I A/B it with my 
>inverted L. There does seem to be a little directivity, but not much, and 
>subjectively I find that weak signals are all heard better on the transmit 
>antenna. Judging by results in the current contest, I've got an alligator on 
>my hands! 
> 
>The preamp amplifies by a couple of S units, and I can hear the relays out at 
>the antenna switching when I change directions or termination resistances, 
>although gain and directivity do not change noticeably. 
> From this I assume there's nothing wrong with the electronics 
> 
>I tried to do my installation "by the book." Ground is provided at the base of 
>the antenna by a 6-foot ground rod. There are two common-mode chokes on the 
>feedline, one at each end of approximately 100 feet of RG-6. About the only 
>deviation from the published design is that the top of the crossed loops is at 
>28 feet, not 25, and the loops have their bases more or less horizontal, where 
>the published designs show them tilting upward approximately 15-20 degrees 
>from the center in each direction. I can make that happen with some more 
>rigging, but before I do that, I'm looking for suggestions of other places to 
>look for the problem. 
> 
>-- 
> 
>73, Pete N4ZR 
>Check out the Reverse Beacon Network 
>at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now 
>spotting RTTY activity worldwide. 
>For spots, please use your favorite 
>"retail" DX cluster. 
> 
>_ 
>Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector 
> 
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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[Alan Swinger]

I also put out radials on my K9AY loop and also did what ON4UN suggested re 
common mode - per his book - another grd rod about 8 ft (or so) from the loop 
base with coax shield grounded to it. I also used a coax piece w/ ferrite beads 
(from DX Eng) to connect from the ant to the grd rod and feedline. It has 
worked as advertised for many yrs. If not done, suggest chck it w/ AM bcst 
stations for directivity.
73 - Alan K9MBQ


-Original Message-
>From: Lloyd - N9LB 
>Sent: Dec 7, 2019 4:26 PM
>To: 'N4ZR' , 'topband reflector' 
>Subject: Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing
>
>Pete, I had the very same problem here.
>
>I have very poor soil, mostly a painted on layer of top soil, several inches 
>of clay, a couple of feet of sand, and then bedrock.
>
>Gary - K9AY told me that for poor soil conditions I needed to put a ground 
>radial directly under each loop and attach them to the center ground rod.  
>Length of the radials should extend a few feet past the edge of each loop.
>
>73
>
>Lloyd - N9LB
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N4ZR
>Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2019 3:14 PM
>To: topband reflector 
>Subject: Topband: K9ay loop not performing
>
>I just put up a K9AY loop, using the Array Solutions control boxes, and am 
>pretty disappointed.  There is no audible or visible difference in the noise 
>level, while the received signal strength is down whenever I A/B it with my 
>inverted L.  There does seem to be a little directivity, but not much, and 
>subjectively I find that weak signals are all heard better on the transmit 
>antenna. Judging by results in the current contest, I've got an alligator on 
>my hands!
>
>The preamp amplifies by a couple of S units, and I can hear the relays out at 
>the antenna switching when I change directions or termination resistances, 
>although gain and directivity do not change noticeably. 
> From this I assume there's nothing wrong with the electronics
>
>I tried to do my installation "by the book."  Ground is provided at the base 
>of the antenna by a 6-foot ground rod.  There are two common-mode chokes on 
>the feedline, one at each end of approximately 100 feet of RG-6.  About the 
>only deviation from the published design is that the top of the crossed loops 
>is at 28 feet, not 25, and the loops have their bases more or less horizontal, 
>where the published designs show them tilting upward approximately 15-20 
>degrees from the center in each direction.  I can make that happen with some 
>more rigging, but before I do that, I'm looking for suggestions of other 
>places to look for the problem.
>
>-- 
>
>73, Pete N4ZR
>Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
>at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
>spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
>For spots, please use your favorite
>"retail" DX cluster.
>
>_
>Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
>
>_
>Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
_
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Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[Lloyd - N9LB]

Pete, I had the very same problem here.

I have very poor soil, mostly a painted on layer of top soil, several inches of 
clay, a couple of feet of sand, and then bedrock.

Gary - K9AY told me that for poor soil conditions I needed to put a ground 
radial directly under each loop and attach them to the center ground rod.  
Length of the radials should extend a few feet past the edge of each loop.

73

Lloyd - N9LB

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N4ZR
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2019 3:14 PM
To: topband reflector 
Subject: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

I just put up a K9AY loop, using the Array Solutions control boxes, and am 
pretty disappointed.  There is no audible or visible difference in the noise 
level, while the received signal strength is down whenever I A/B it with my 
inverted L.  There does seem to be a little directivity, but not much, and 
subjectively I find that weak signals are all heard better on the transmit 
antenna. Judging by results in the current contest, I've got an alligator on my 
hands!

The preamp amplifies by a couple of S units, and I can hear the relays out at 
the antenna switching when I change directions or termination resistances, 
although gain and directivity do not change noticeably. 
 From this I assume there's nothing wrong with the electronics

I tried to do my installation "by the book."  Ground is provided at the base of 
the antenna by a 6-foot ground rod.  There are two common-mode chokes on the 
feedline, one at each end of approximately 100 feet of RG-6.  About the only 
deviation from the published design is that the top of the crossed loops is at 
28 feet, not 25, and the loops have their bases more or less horizontal, where 
the published designs show them tilting upward approximately 15-20 degrees from 
the center in each direction.  I can make that happen with some more rigging, 
but before I do that, I'm looking for suggestions of other places to look for 
the problem.

-- 

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[N4ZR]

I just put up a K9AY loop, using the Array Solutions control boxes, and 
am pretty disappointed.  There is no audible or visible difference in 
the noise level, while the received signal strength is down whenever I 
A/B it with my inverted L.  There does seem to be a little directivity, 
but not much, and subjectively I find that weak signals are all heard 
better on the transmit antenna. Judging by results in the current 
contest, I've got an alligator on my hands!


The preamp amplifies by a couple of S units, and I can hear the relays 
out at the antenna switching when I change directions or termination 
resistances, although gain and directivity do not change noticeably. 
From this I assume there's nothing wrong with the electronics


I tried to do my installation "by the book."  Ground is provided at the 
base of the antenna by a 6-foot ground rod.  There are two common-mode 
chokes on the feedline, one at each end of approximately 100 feet of 
RG-6.  About the only deviation from the published design is that the 
top of the crossed loops is at 28 feet, not 25, and the loops have their 
bases more or less horizontal, where the published designs show them 
tilting upward approximately 15-20 degrees from the center in each 
direction.  I can make that happen with some more rigging, but before I 
do that, I'm looking for suggestions of other places to look for the 
problem.


--

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at , now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector