Topband: radial wire

[cqtestk4xs--- via Topband]

Brand new still wrapped...5000 ft of AWG  20 insulated wire.  It is excess to 
what I needed for my 80 meter 4 sq and 160 vertical.  $170 and I pay shipping 
to the lower 48.  Pic is on KA9FOX's classifieds.
Bill K4XS
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Artek Manuals]

 Bill

Arcing is probably not an issue at least for the 1st couple of years. I 
guess at some point 10 years down the road and your bargain wire is 
likely not UV resistant rated (?) Over time it will weather and crack ., 
running 1.5KW on FT8 you run the risk of setting the grass or leaf 
litter on fire eventually 8^)


At the 100W level your at now not much risk of arcing IMO.

Dave
NR1DX

On 11/6/2020 4:55 PM, cqtestk4xs--- via Topband wrote:

"For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is
nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire.  And
Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires."
I agree.  I recently picked up a 5000 ft roll of insulated 20AWG for a little 
over $100 shipped.  Plenty enough to run 30 radials.
I too woul dlike to know if you can cross insulated wires without soldering.  
Planning on puttin up a 4 square for 80 at my new station in V31 and if you 
don't have to solder them it would be a great.
Bill K4XS/KH7XS/V31XX
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector


--
Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com www.ArtekManuals.com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: Radial wire

[cqtestk4xs--- via Topband]

"For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is
nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire.  And
Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires."
I agree.  I recently picked up a 5000 ft roll of insulated 20AWG for a little 
over $100 shipped.  Plenty enough to run 30 radials.
I too woul dlike to know if you can cross insulated wires without soldering.  
Planning on puttin up a 4 square for 80 at my new station in V31 and if you 
don't have to solder them it would be a great.
Bill K4XS/KH7XS/V31XX
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Mike Waters]

I just realized that my Beverage wire below was severely stretched. Twice!
That may have shortened its life, and may be the reason why it's so rusty
in many places. (I can't say by how much.)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018, 12:47 PM Mike Waters  wrote:

> ... I have a Beverage made from 17 gauge plated steel electric fence wire
> that's been up roughly 8 years. The plating is gone from much of it, and
> signal levels are really down now because of that due to paramagnetic
> losses. In contact with moist soil, I would not expect it to last as long.
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Jim Thomson]

Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 15:27:35 -0500
From: Rob Atkinson 
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Radial wire

http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Rob Atkinson]

>Rob, Not barbed wire, but electric fence wire.  This wire stays good for
>decades. Look at the horse and cattle farms around you. It has the same
>conductivity as your galvanized steel tower.  Nor does anyone consider
>making a tower out of copper or copper clad steel.☺ A radial system of 60
>1/4 wave of #10 copper cost 50 times what the electric fence wire costs.

Big difference between wire on fence and buried.  I've mistakenly
installed galvanized steel ground rods here.  Pulling them back out 10
years later they were nothing but rust and useless.  The surface area
of a tower's galvanized legs is much greater than the surface area of
a skinny wire, therefore the RF conductivity is NOT the same.  copper
has in fact become expensive compared to 15 years ago but all antennas
have gotten expensive.  The ground system is 1/2 of an antenna.  But,
unlike the directly excited part, you don't have to do the ground
system all at once.  You can put it in at affordable segments over
time, assuming you will use it for years to come.

73

Rob
K5UJ
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

Roger posted.":but I would emphasize that WD1A is horrible for
bi-directional Beverages as the loss is excessive in the transmission line
mode."  Roger that is clearly the case as I have found here the hard way.
I now use the WD1A for single wire Beverage antennas due to its low cost
and strength.  I just terminate the far end with a 450 Ohm non-inductive
resistor. it would be great for radials as well.

Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ

On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:30 PM Roger Parsons via Topband <
topband@contesting.com> wrote:

> Joel W5ZN wrote:
>
> ... low cost radial wire options got me thinking about WD1A. Anyone have
> any experience with it as radial wire?? There are two wires that should
> pull apart easily ...
>
> I use WD1A wire mostly for (single direction) Beverages, but also as
> radials at the ends of those antennas. In my experience it is excellent for
> both applications BUT only if the two wires remain joined. If they are
> pulled apart they seem to be self tangling! I think that the wire is
> actually a very clever design - the two wires appear to have opposite
> twists - so it lays very flat and straight.
>
> (I know this is not the subject of the posts, but I would emphasise that
> WD1A is horrible for bi-directional Beverages as the loss is excessive in
> the transmission line mode.)
>
> 73 Roger
>  VE3ZI
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: radial wire alternative

[N7DF via Topband]

This had worked well for radials in the desert of New Mexico both on the ground 
and elevated American FarmWorks Poly Wire, 1320 ft. at Tractor Supply Co.

The conductors are stainless steel and havr about the same ohmic resistance as 
galvanized wire
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Roger Parsons via Topband]

Joel W5ZN wrote:

... low cost radial wire options got me thinking about WD1A. Anyone have any 
experience with it as radial wire?? There are two wires that should pull apart 
easily ...

I use WD1A wire mostly for (single direction) Beverages, but also as radials at 
the ends of those antennas. In my experience it is excellent for both 
applications BUT only if the two wires remain joined. If they are pulled apart 
they seem to be self tangling! I think that the wire is actually a very clever 
design - the two wires appear to have opposite twists - so it lays very flat 
and straight.

(I know this is not the subject of the posts, but I would emphasise that WD1A 
is horrible for bi-directional Beverages as the loss is excessive in the 
transmission line mode.)

73 Roger
 VE3ZI
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Gary Smith]

I have maybe 45 radials, some of them 
WD-1A. I bought over a mile of CAT cable 
and used it for antennas and radials, 
silver-soldering the wires together & 
attaching them to the plate or coax with 
ring terminals. They worked fine for 
radials, show no wear after around 8 
years. 

I used WD-1A for a couple bi-directional 
Beverages and found the salt marsh with 
tall phragmites dry & blowing in the wind 
set up so much static that it was noisier 
than my then INV-L. At that time I went to 
HI-Z antennas and never looked back. I 
used the WD-1A for new radials, cutting it 
into 130' sections & silver-soldering this 
as well. The WD-1A is only 5 or so years 
old as radials but I see zero issues in an 
acidic salt marsh thus far.

However... As to splitting the WD-1A, 
don't try it, it's a waste of time. You 
have to carefully get the wire split so as 
to not expose the stainless inside and 
then once you finally do get the two 
halves apart and pull them apart, you have 
a pair of snake-like helixes. The abrupt 
bend as they separate makes the helix and 
it will not lay flat. If you were to bury 
it, it'd probably be OK. 

I use WD-1A for antenna wire now, bought 
about 2 miles of it for the future & will 
likely use it in its natural paired state 
for radials when I relocate.

My 2 pence.

73,

Gary
KA1J



> I like to buy copper wire when I find a good deal surplus or otherwise
> and horde it up whenever I need it.
> 
> In following this thread and seeing some folks seeking low cost radial
> wire options got me thinking about WD1A. Anyone have any experience
> with it as radial wire?? There are two wires that should pull apart
> easily and give you a "2 for 1" deal.
> 
> Anywho, just curious if anyone has any experience using it for
> radials?
> 
> 73 Joel W5ZN
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> 



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

Rob, Not barbed wire, but electric fence wire.  This wire stays good for
decades. Look at the horse and cattle farms around you. It has the same
conductivity as your galvanized steel tower.  Nor does anyone consider
making a tower out of copper or copper clad steel.☺ A radial system of 60
1/4 wave of #10 copper cost 50 times what the electric fence wire costs.

Herb, KV4FZ

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 1:21 PM Rob Atkinson  wrote:

> Oh man, any time this topic comes up anywhere the guys come out with
> all kinds of suggestions for wire that won't last like galvanized
> steel and electric fence wire.  Nix nix nix...if you want a permanent
> ground system go with copper, insulated or not.  Stranded doesn't lie
> down as well; you want soft drawn copper sold.  Stranded wants to
> spring up and stay coiled, especially if it is hard drawn antenna
> wire.  Use that for antennas.   Copper clad steel can be hard to work
> with too unless you have a spool on a radial plow and are laying it
> into a slit a few inches deep with a tractor.
>
> But if the installation only has to last a few months then use the
> barb wire, etc.
>
> 73
> Rob
> K5UJ
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Kenneth Grimm]

Well, electric fence wire comes in various levels of galvanizing.  The
cheap stuff such as RedBrand is class 1 and is galvanized to 0.28 oz of
zinc per square foot.  Bekaert Wire 17ga which is 0.80 oz per sq. ft. and
is also available from Tractor Supply.  I've never seen any electric fence
wire that was better than that.  It goes for the same price as RedBrand,
but typically has to be ordered...at least that's the story from my Tractor
Supply.  So, $29.99 for 1/2 mile.  RedBrand is made in the USA and Bekaert
is made in Belgium.  That exhausts my info on electric fence wire!  8*)

73,
Ken - K4XL

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 1:47 PM, Mike Waters  wrote:

> I don't know which brand is best, but I think the thickness of the
> galvanizing varies. (W8JI said that most "galvanized" steel electric fence
> wire is actually cadmium plated, and not zinc).
>
> I have a Beverage made from 17 gauge plated steel electric fence wire
> that's been up roughly 8 years. The plating is gone from much of it, and
> signal levels are really down now because of that due to paramagnetic
> losses. In contact with moist soil, I would not expect it to last as long.
>
> Where is plated steel electric fence wire available with a good thick
> plating?
>
> 73, Mike
> www.w0btu.com
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 5, 2018, 1:22 PM Kenneth Grimm  wrote:
>
>> If you have a Tractor Supply store near you, the price for 1/4 mile of 17
>> ga. galvanized electric fence wire is $14.99.  You can get 1/2 mile roll
>> for $29.99.  Just how long it will last will vary depending on your soil.
>> However, at that price it is worth a try.
>>
>> 73,
>> Ken - K4XL
>>
>


-- 
Ken - K4XL
BoatAnchor Manual Archive
BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Mike Waters]

I don't know which brand is best, but I think the thickness of the
galvanizing varies. (W8JI said that most "galvanized" steel electric fence
wire is actually cadmium plated, and not zinc).

I have a Beverage made from 17 gauge plated steel electric fence wire
that's been up roughly 8 years. The plating is gone from much of it, and
signal levels are really down now because of that due to paramagnetic
losses. In contact with moist soil, I would not expect it to last as long.

Where is plated steel electric fence wire available with a good thick
plating?

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com


On Wed, Sep 5, 2018, 1:22 PM Kenneth Grimm  wrote:

> If you have a Tractor Supply store near you, the price for 1/4 mile of 17
> ga. galvanized electric fence wire is $14.99.  You can get 1/2 mile roll
> for $29.99.  Just how long it will last will vary depending on your soil.
> However, at that price it is worth a try.
>
> 73,
> Ken - K4XL
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[VK3HJ]

You in America have no idea how cheap and easy it is there to buy stuff, all 
sorts of stuff for our hobby.


I used 2.5 mm galvanised high-tensile steel wire for my beverages. 1500 
metres cost me $170.


For my buried ground radials, my cheapest option is 2.5 mm Building Wire, at 
$29/100 metre roll. I am looking forward to removing my elevated 
counterpoise as it is just too much work to keep in the air. I have a couple 
of very large hairy people living in the home paddock, who insist on 
scratching themselves on the support poles and with the wet winter we've 
had, there are poles being pushed over and wires are breaking. On ground 
radials are not an option, as I have cattle in the paddock sometimes, and 
they will just eat PVC insulated wire on the ground.


Looking forward to hearing more of you on Top Band over the next few months 
as we go through the Spring equinox. I had a decent opening a few evenings 
ago to NA, plus one JA.


73,

Luke VK3HJ

-Original Message- 
From: Kenneth Grimm

Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2018 4:21 AM
To: Herbert Schoenbohm
Cc: n0os...@gmail.com ; TopBand List ; n...@n4is.com ; Richard (Rick) 
Karlquist ; Grant Saviers

Subject: Re: Topband: Radial wire

If you have a Tractor Supply store near you, the price for 1/4 mile of 17
ga. galvanized electric fence wire is $14.99.  You can get 1/2 mile roll
for $29.99.  Just how long it will last will vary depending on your soil.
However, at that price it is worth a try.

73,
Ken - K4XL 


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[w5zn]

I like to buy copper wire when I find a good deal surplus or otherwise 
and horde it up whenever I need it.


In following this thread and seeing some folks seeking low cost radial 
wire options got me thinking about WD1A. Anyone have any experience with 
it as radial wire?? There are two wires that should pull apart easily 
and give you a "2 for 1" deal.


Anywho, just curious if anyone has any experience using it for radials?

73 Joel W5ZN
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Brian Pease]

I just use 2-conductor military field phone wire with the 2 insulated 
wires in parallel.  There is so little current in each radial (I have 
137 radials 100 ft long) that the small partly-steel wire works fine.  
The rugged poly insulation should protect the wire forever and makes 
zero difference in radial performance.  I just stretched it out in my 1 
acre field with garden staples and in one year it has been buried by the 
thatch.  I did solder each crimped terminal, and they are above ground 
and protected from the weather.


On 9/4/2018 10:14 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

On 9/4/2018 4:36 PM, Jeff Draughn wrote:

I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as
possible.  I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, 
however




See:  http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/products/tie-wire.cfm

Rick N6RK
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Rob Atkinson]

Oh man, any time this topic comes up anywhere the guys come out with
all kinds of suggestions for wire that won't last like galvanized
steel and electric fence wire.  Nix nix nix...if you want a permanent
ground system go with copper, insulated or not.  Stranded doesn't lie
down as well; you want soft drawn copper sold.  Stranded wants to
spring up and stay coiled, especially if it is hard drawn antenna
wire.  Use that for antennas.   Copper clad steel can be hard to work
with too unless you have a spool on a radial plow and are laying it
into a slit a few inches deep with a tractor.

But if the installation only has to last a few months then use the
barb wire, etc.

73
Rob
K5UJ
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Kenneth Grimm]

If you have a Tractor Supply store near you, the price for 1/4 mile of 17
ga. galvanized electric fence wire is $14.99.  You can get 1/2 mile roll
for $29.99.  Just how long it will last will vary depending on your soil.
However, at that price it is worth a try.

73,
Ken - K4XL

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 1:10 PM, Herbert Schoenbohm <
herbert.schoenb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 1/4 mile for $30 is reasonable and would work well for radials.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Acorn-International-EFW1714-1-
> 4-Mile-17-Gauge-Galvanized-Fence-Wire/152465194663?epid=4017419194=
> item237fa23ea7:g:xOMAAOSw4A5YwFca
>
> Herb, KV4FZ
>
> On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 2:00 PM Herbert Schoenbohm <
> herbert.schoenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For a cheap solution for radials is to use buried galvanized barbed wire.
> > It is available for pennies a foot.  A preferred way of putting it in is
> to
> > use a is a  Ditch Witch with a vibrating plow attachment that allows the
> > wire to buried with limited handling.  Depending on the soil consistency
> it
> > will be long-lasting.   My sons with metal detectors have unearthed
> barbed
> > wire that was of a style used 50 years ago by local farmers. In Puerto
> Rico
> > AM stations have lost entire copper fields by poachers who sent it off to
> > Rep Dom by containers to be sent by the pound. They have used the
> > galvanized fence wire successfully.
> >
> > Herb, KV4FZ
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM JC  wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Guys
> >>
> >> Stay away from aluminum, the aluminum oxide dielectric is a terrible
> >> complication around 2 MHz, it become a capacitor and a diode and will
> >> generate a lot of noise in presence RF currents.
> >>
> >> There is no way to avoid the diodes at the connection with different
> >> materials, like at the ground plate. When these electrical junctions are
> >> very well they will work well for few months, than the noise will start
> >> around Sunset when the RF field from AM BC are more intense, the RF
> will be
> >> there, even if you are far from BC station, the propagation peak is near
> >> Sunset.
> >>
> >> Galvanic corrosion and diode formation is inevitable. Same problem is
> >> very common on rotor, mast and tower contacts originating birds on 1810,
> >> 1820 and every 10 KHz, most of this signals are originate on your own
> >> tower. Just grounding the with a solid contact with the tower can kill a
> >> lot of noise.
> >>
> >> I've seen several situation of aluminum joints becoming a strong noise
> >> source. The same joints are not a problem on 80 or 40m, the issue is
> just
> >> around 2 MHz
> >>
> >> Save yourself a lot of problems, aluminum an 160m antennas are not a
> good
> >> combination.
> >>
> >> 73's
> >> JC
> >> N4IS
> >>
> >>
> >> _
> >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> >>
> >
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>



-- 
Ken - K4XL
BoatAnchor Manual Archive
BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

1/4 mile for $30 is reasonable and would work well for radials.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Acorn-International-EFW1714-1-4-Mile-17-Gauge-Galvanized-Fence-Wire/152465194663?epid=4017419194=item237fa23ea7:g:xOMAAOSw4A5YwFca

Herb, KV4FZ

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 2:00 PM Herbert Schoenbohm <
herbert.schoenb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> For a cheap solution for radials is to use buried galvanized barbed wire.
> It is available for pennies a foot.  A preferred way of putting it in is to
> use a is a  Ditch Witch with a vibrating plow attachment that allows the
> wire to buried with limited handling.  Depending on the soil consistency it
> will be long-lasting.   My sons with metal detectors have unearthed barbed
> wire that was of a style used 50 years ago by local farmers. In Puerto Rico
> AM stations have lost entire copper fields by poachers who sent it off to
> Rep Dom by containers to be sent by the pound. They have used the
> galvanized fence wire successfully.
>
> Herb, KV4FZ
>
> On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM JC  wrote:
>
>> Hi Guys
>>
>> Stay away from aluminum, the aluminum oxide dielectric is a terrible
>> complication around 2 MHz, it become a capacitor and a diode and will
>> generate a lot of noise in presence RF currents.
>>
>> There is no way to avoid the diodes at the connection with different
>> materials, like at the ground plate. When these electrical junctions are
>> very well they will work well for few months, than the noise will start
>> around Sunset when the RF field from AM BC are more intense, the RF will be
>> there, even if you are far from BC station, the propagation peak is near
>> Sunset.
>>
>> Galvanic corrosion and diode formation is inevitable. Same problem is
>> very common on rotor, mast and tower contacts originating birds on 1810,
>> 1820 and every 10 KHz, most of this signals are originate on your own
>> tower. Just grounding the with a solid contact with the tower can kill a
>> lot of noise.
>>
>> I've seen several situation of aluminum joints becoming a strong noise
>> source. The same joints are not a problem on 80 or 40m, the issue is just
>> around 2 MHz
>>
>> Save yourself a lot of problems, aluminum an 160m antennas are not a good
>> combination.
>>
>> 73's
>> JC
>> N4IS
>>
>>
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

For a cheap solution for radials is to use buried galvanized barbed wire.
It is available for pennies a foot.  A preferred way of putting it in is to
use a is a  Ditch Witch with a vibrating plow attachment that allows the
wire to buried with limited handling.  Depending on the soil consistency it
will be long-lasting.   My sons with metal detectors have unearthed barbed
wire that was of a style used 50 years ago by local farmers. In Puerto Rico
AM stations have lost entire copper fields by poachers who sent it off to
Rep Dom by containers to be sent by the pound. They have used the
galvanized fence wire successfully.

Herb, KV4FZ

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM JC  wrote:

> Hi Guys
>
> Stay away from aluminum, the aluminum oxide dielectric is a terrible
> complication around 2 MHz, it become a capacitor and a diode and will
> generate a lot of noise in presence RF currents.
>
> There is no way to avoid the diodes at the connection with different
> materials, like at the ground plate. When these electrical junctions are
> very well they will work well for few months, than the noise will start
> around Sunset when the RF field from AM BC are more intense, the RF will be
> there, even if you are far from BC station, the propagation peak is near
> Sunset.
>
> Galvanic corrosion and diode formation is inevitable. Same problem is very
> common on rotor, mast and tower contacts originating birds on 1810, 1820
> and every 10 KHz, most of this signals are originate on your own tower.
> Just grounding the with a solid contact with the tower can kill a lot of
> noise.
>
> I've seen several situation of aluminum joints becoming a strong noise
> source. The same joints are not a problem on 80 or 40m, the issue is just
> around 2 MHz
>
> Save yourself a lot of problems, aluminum an 160m antennas are not a good
> combination.
>
> 73's
> JC
> N4IS
>
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[JC]

Hi Guys

Stay away from aluminum, the aluminum oxide dielectric is a terrible 
complication around 2 MHz, it become a capacitor and a diode and will generate 
a lot of noise in presence RF currents.

There is no way to avoid the diodes at the connection with different materials, 
like at the ground plate. When these electrical junctions are very well they 
will work well for few months, than the noise will start around Sunset when the 
RF field from AM BC are more intense, the RF will be there, even if you are far 
from BC station, the propagation peak is near Sunset.

Galvanic corrosion and diode formation is inevitable. Same problem is very 
common on rotor, mast and tower contacts originating birds on 1810, 1820 and 
every 10 KHz, most of this signals are originate on your own tower. Just 
grounding the with a solid contact with the tower can kill a lot of noise.

I've seen several situation of aluminum joints becoming a strong noise source. 
The same joints are not a problem on 80 or 40m, the issue is just around 2 MHz

Save yourself a lot of problems, aluminum an 160m antennas are not a good 
combination.

73's
JC
N4IS


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Grant Saviers]

Interesting source.  The 5356 alloy would be the best choice for radial 
wires since the 5xxx series are of a corrosion resistant aluminum 
alloy.  5052 is the usual alloy for boat hulls in salt water.


OTOH, it seems the cost of 14ga THHN, the fact that it will last 
forever, and that it is widely available makes this an academic point.  
Unspooled properly, the thousands of feet I've used electrically didn't 
seem to have much coil memory.


For elevated radials, Al electric fence wire is my preference, but it 
has strong coil memory even after 5 years in the air.


Grant KZ1W

On 9/4/2018 19:14 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

On 9/4/2018 4:36 PM, Jeff Draughn wrote:

I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as
possible.  I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, 
however




See:  http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/products/tie-wire.cfm

Rick N6RK
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Tree]

Speaking of radial wire - I have recently found a source of it that is very
inexpensive.  It might not be the best for laying flat - but I have been
able to find thousands of feet for like $15.  Sorry - this is probably only
a USA thing however.

Look for your nearest Habitat for Humanity ReStore.  They are like a
Goodwill for building supplies.  They typically have an area with hand
tools and you will find spools of wire and RG6 if you are lucky.  Great
prices.  If I see one while I am driving through most anyplace - I stop in
to take a quick look.

Happy Hunting!!

In other news - I have my second tower about 80 percent up in the air.
Should be able to finish it during the next month and get it loaded on
160.  Hoping to have a pretty good signal from my new QTH by the PreStew.
This is my first hilltop QTH and am anxious to see how it plays.

73 Tree N6TR/7
Manning, OR

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 5:00 AM MU 4CX250B <4cx2...@miamioh.edu> wrote:

> Jeff, I also use THHN 14Awg stranded wire laying flat on the ground. I
> use brown insulation to match the desert floor, and one or two lawn
> staples per radial (each is 120 ft long). I'm not certain, but I think
> I bought it in 5000 ft spools.
> 73,
> Jim w8zr
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 4, 2018, at 5:47 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jeff,
> >
> >
> > I use 14 AWG THHN stranded wire for temporary radials laying
> > on the ground. Its lays flat.
> >
> >
> >
> www.wireandcableyourway.com/14-awg-thhn-stranded-building-wire-500ft-or-2500ft-spool.html
> >
> >
> > 73
> > Frank
> > W3LPL
> >
> > - Original Message -
> >
> > From: "Jeff Draughn" 
> > To: topband@contesting.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 11:36:54 PM
> > Subject: Topband: Radial wire
> >
> > I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as
> > possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however
> > I have used the wire from the big box stores THHN etc. and it always has
> > that permanent curl to it or permanent for a good long while.
> >
> > Anyone know of anything that is very flexible right out of the gate test
> > lead wire comes to mind but probably too expensive.
> > Thanks
> > Jeff, N0OST
> > _
> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> >
> > _
> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[MU 4CX250B]

Jeff, I also use THHN 14Awg stranded wire laying flat on the ground. I
use brown insulation to match the desert floor, and one or two lawn
staples per radial (each is 120 ft long). I'm not certain, but I think
I bought it in 5000 ft spools.
73,
Jim w8zr

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 4, 2018, at 5:47 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
>
> I use 14 AWG THHN stranded wire for temporary radials laying
> on the ground. Its lays flat.
>
>
> www.wireandcableyourway.com/14-awg-thhn-stranded-building-wire-500ft-or-2500ft-spool.html
>
>
> 73
> Frank
> W3LPL
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: "Jeff Draughn" 
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 11:36:54 PM
> Subject: Topband: Radial wire
>
> I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as
> possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however
> I have used the wire from the big box stores THHN etc. and it always has
> that permanent curl to it or permanent for a good long while.
>
> Anyone know of anything that is very flexible right out of the gate test
> lead wire comes to mind but probably too expensive.
> Thanks
> Jeff, N0OST
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 9/4/2018 8:53 PM, K9FD wrote:

Beware .. in some soils the aluminum wire disappears in a short time,
In ILL had aluminum wire down and it just corroded away and left nothing


Agreed, but if your soil permits, it works. YMMV.
I did try to obtain insulated aluminum wire but could
not obtain it except in very large gauges.

73
Rick N6RK
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[K9FD]

Beware .. in some soils the aluminum wire disappears in a short time,
In ILL had aluminum wire down and it just corroded away and left nothing
but lot of noise as the "joints" went bad.

Merv K9FD

On 9/4/2018 4:36 PM, Jeff Draughn wrote:

I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as
possible.  I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, 
however




See:  http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/products/tie-wire.cfm

Rick N6RK
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 9/4/2018 4:36 PM, Jeff Draughn wrote:

I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as
possible.  I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however



See:  http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/products/tie-wire.cfm

Rick N6RK
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 9/4/2018 4:36 PM, Jeff Draughn wrote:

I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as
possible.  I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however


I once ordered some dead soft pure aluminum wire
and it was as soft as "butter" :-)  Even softer
than solder.  The alloy was something like 1100.
Unfortunately, I don't have the vendor info handy.
You sometimes see this wire used to strap toys
to a cardboard display box. It is called
"tie wire" for obvious reasons.  Wasn't expensive
either, like a penny a foot.

It was way more limp than aluminum electric fence
wire as found at any farm supply.

Hope that helps.

73
Rick N6RK

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[David Harmon]

I used 6300' of radial wire from DX Engineering.
The great thing about it is that it lays flat on top of the ground without 
snarling upno need to stretch it...just roll it out.
Don’t take it sideways off the reel...unroll the reel.
I scalped the grass around the vertical and then used lawn staples from DXE to 
be sure they stayed down while the grass grew over them.
They have been out there for 8 years and I mow over them with no problem.
Stranded copper with some sort of tough UV resistant insulation.


73

David Harmon
K6XYZ
Sperry, OK


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Draughn
Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 6:37 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Radial wire

I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as possible.  
I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however I have used the 
wire from the big box stores THHN etc. and it always has that permanent curl to 
it or permanent for a good long while.

 Anyone know of anything that is very flexible right out of the gate test lead 
wire comes to mind but probably too expensive.
Thanks
Jeff, N0OST
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[AJ]

On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 18:36:54 -0500
Jeff Draughn  wrote:

> I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as
> possible.  I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for,
> however I have used the wire from the big box stores THHN etc. and it
> always has that permanent curl to it or permanent for a good long
> while.
> 
>  Anyone know of anything that is very flexible right out of the gate
> test lead wire comes to mind but probably too expensive.
> Thanks
> Jeff, N0OST
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


Hi Jeff

There are many, it all depends on what you want to do and how much of a
radial system you want.

The easy one that comes to mind is  https://tinyurl.com/y7ydu5wj

I have used aluminum siding in the past works well, takes time and work
to connect it together. 

There are many others that have done this with their 3 or 4 etc squares
antennae too.

Cheers AJ___ VE3HJ
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[donovanf]

Hi Jeff, 


I use 14 AWG THHN stranded wire for temporary radials laying 
on the ground. Its lays flat. 


www.wireandcableyourway.com/14-awg-thhn-stranded-building-wire-500ft-or-2500ft-spool.html
 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Jeff Draughn"  
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 11:36:54 PM 
Subject: Topband: Radial wire 

I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as 
possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however 
I have used the wire from the big box stores THHN etc. and it always has 
that permanent curl to it or permanent for a good long while. 

Anyone know of anything that is very flexible right out of the gate test 
lead wire comes to mind but probably too expensive. 
Thanks 
Jeff, N0OST 
_ 
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Radial wire

[Jeff Draughn]

I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as
possible.  I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however
I have used the wire from the big box stores THHN etc. and it always has
that permanent curl to it or permanent for a good long while.

 Anyone know of anything that is very flexible right out of the gate test
lead wire comes to mind but probably too expensive.
Thanks
Jeff, N0OST
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire System Comparison - (was adding a parasitic reflect

[MICHAEL ST ANGELO]

Paul,

I got a good deal on stranded teflon wire. It cost me $0. I lay it on the 
ground. The only issue I have with it is that the wire is stranded and it wicks 
in moisture. Teflon is easily nicked and the moisture finds it's way in.

You mentioned your wire is solid so you should not have that problem. 

In any case I'd be hesitant in removing the insulation and soldering. The 
exposed joints may corrode.

I got my wire 25 years ago. At that time teflon was cheap because scrap dealers 
didn't like it. The overseas recyclers they shipped wire to burned off the 
insulation to get to the copper; That is not possible with teflon.

Mike N2MS


> On February 1, 2018 at 9:39 AM Paul Christensen  wrote:
> 
> 
> >"The reason is that the standard DA ground system as far as I know, has
> always involved strapping radials to a copper strap running along the line
> of radial intersection, clipping off the radial wire that runs past the
> strap."
> 
> Unless there's modeled or measured data, that's the "conventional wisdom,"
> -- and it makes sense in those commercial installations where it's
> impractical to use insulated wire that can withstand long-term soil
> conditions.  Or, is there really that much cross coupling that results in
> radial current cancellation when the wire is insulated?  
> 
> The wire is buried just below the ground surface and only the wire
> insulation would come in contact between radial wires.  However, the
> conductor-to-conductor distance at the overlap points would be very small.
> For the answer, I'll likely need to run a NEC 4.2 model, and assign Z axis
> distances of the radials that can be easily adjusted in NEC that results in
> anything from a wired cross connection point to any spacing distance in
> between radials.
> 
> >Why the teflon insulation?
> 
> Already acquired from a surplus supplier...a lot of it.  In addition to the
> Teflon insulation, it's solid, silver-tinned copper, 18 AWG.  
> 
> Paul, W9AC
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire Comparison

[Dennis W0JX via Topband]

A while back, I specifically asked K3LC whether there was a significant 
difference electrically between tying radials to a buss in a 4 square or just 
letting them overlap. To my surprise, Al said that the modeled antenna gain of 
the overlapping radial system was slightly greater than that of the ground 
system where the radials are terminated in a copper buss.

The issue boils down to: 1.) the extra time spent cutting, stripping and 
soldering the wires to the buss strap; 2.) the cost of the extra wire wasted in 
running the wires the full length beyond where they overlap; and 3.) the 
longevity of the wire insulation.

Here at my QTH, I use #14 THHN for radial wire. In some parts of my property, 
the soil chemistry is such that the wire insulation deteriorated in about four 
years. In the case of teflon wire, I would expect a much longer service life 

Two years ago, K8MFO built an 80 meter four square using HyGain Hi-Towers. 
There are 48, quarter wave radials under each vertical and Don just laid the 
radials on the ground and overlapped them. He said that laying down the ground 
staples was enough work and he gets superb performance from his array.

73 Dennis W0JX 
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire System Comparison - (was adding a parasitic reflect

[Paul Christensen]

>"The reason is that the standard DA ground system as far as I know, has
always involved strapping radials to a copper strap running along the line
of radial intersection, clipping off the radial wire that runs past the
strap."

Unless there's modeled or measured data, that's the "conventional wisdom,"
-- and it makes sense in those commercial installations where it's
impractical to use insulated wire that can withstand long-term soil
conditions.  Or, is there really that much cross coupling that results in
radial current cancellation when the wire is insulated?  

The wire is buried just below the ground surface and only the wire
insulation would come in contact between radial wires.  However, the
conductor-to-conductor distance at the overlap points would be very small.
For the answer, I'll likely need to run a NEC 4.2 model, and assign Z axis
distances of the radials that can be easily adjusted in NEC that results in
anything from a wired cross connection point to any spacing distance in
between radials.

>Why the teflon insulation?

Already acquired from a surplus supplier...a lot of it.  In addition to the
Teflon insulation, it's solid, silver-tinned copper, 18 AWG.  

Paul, W9AC

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Radial Wire System Comparison - (was adding a parasitic reflect

[Rob Atkinson]

 >> I have researched Laport's material, and find nothing that compares
multi-tower array performance when using insulated radial wire versus
uninsulated wire when using a bus wire at the radial overlap points.  Since
his worked in the 1950s mostly focused on directional broadcast tower arrays
-- and the use of heavy-gauge wire, possibly insulated radial wire wasn't
considered because of long-term insulation decomposition that one day
>> results in electrical contact between overlapping radials.

I doubt if you'll find anything in the broadcast literature.  The
reason is that the standard DA ground system as far as I know, has
always involved strapping radials to a copper strap running along the
line of radial intersection, clipping off the radial wire that runs
past the strap.  And the standard ground system wire is AWG solid bare
soft drawn.  I think engineering firms like everything done the same
way from one site to the next to reduce variables for a full proof and
get a DA dialed in to the licensed pattern.

Why the teflon insulation?

73

Rob
K5UJ
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Radial Wire System Comparison - (was adding a parasitic reflector to a vertical)

[Paul Christensen]

Dan and all...

I am in the middle of constructing 4-squares for 160m and 80m.  One element
of each array is up and operating.  A decision must be made concerning the
layout of Teflon-insulated radial wire and whether to run a bus wire/strap
at the intersection of overlapping radials.  It may not seem like it, but
it's a lot of extra work and I just want to ensure the effort is worth the
result.  Cost of the extra wire is not the issue.  

What I am trying to determine is how much detrimental wire-to-wire coupling
occurs when *insulated* radial wire cross and its effect on: (1)
cancellation of radial current; (2) pattern; and (3) F/B performance.  I
have researched Laport's material, and find nothing that compares
multi-tower array performance when using insulated radial wire versus
uninsulated wire when using a bus wire at the radial overlap points.  Since
his worked in the 1950s mostly focused on directional broadcast tower arrays
-- and the use of heavy-gauge wire, possibly insulated radial wire wasn't
considered because of long-term insulation decomposition that one day
results in electrical contact between overlapping radials.

So, can anyone point me to results that show a modeled comparison between
the two types of radial system layouts and even better, actual measured
field strength results?  I do have a NEC 4.2 license, 4Nec2, and just
recently purchased EZNEC Pro/4 and AutoEZ.  Ultimately, I will run my own
analysis, but it always helps to look at someone else's data to ensure
ground system modeling is set up correctly.

Paul, W9AC


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dan
Maguire via Topband
Sent: Thursday, February 1, 2018 2:02 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Adding a parasitic reflector to a vertical

For AutoEZ users:  A model similar to the parasitic array that Tim described
is available on this page:

http://ac6la.com/aecollection8.html

In the first section of that page, scroll down to topic "Parasitic Elements"
and then look for the text "For a vertical parasitic example I chose a model
described by N6LF ...".  The sample model is for 80m but everything is
controlled via variables and there are instructions (within the model
itself) on how to scale for other bands.

Links to several references are also included on the above page.

Dan, AC6LA
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: radial wire size

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Hello

 

Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical

 

What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size
#14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ?

 

#14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But
what about #17?

 

In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if
any

 

Thanks in advance

 

73,

Jorge

CX6VM/CW5W



---
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de 
virus.
http://www.avast.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: radial wire size

[Clive GM3POI]

Jorge, It is a mechanical issue only, dependent on wire type. I used PVC coated 
copper and even thinner than #17. My 130 radials have been in situ for about 15 
years.
73 Clive GM3POI

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jorge Diez - 
CX6VM
Sent: 15 April 2015 12:11
To: 'topband'
Subject: Topband: radial wire size

Hello

 

Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical

 

What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size
#14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ?

 

#14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But
what about #17?

 

In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if
any

 

Thanks in advance

 

73,

Jorge

CX6VM/CW5W



---
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de 
virus.
http://www.avast.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: radial wire size

[Bill Wichers]

The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical 
durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have 
a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively 
small percentage of the overall current in the system.

I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I 
consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get 
it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 
foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years 
without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first 
season it's almost impossible to see on the ground.

A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for 
building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular (hardware store) 
channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the 
heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance.

I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on 
the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more 
difference in your overall antenna system. 

   -Bill

 Hello
 
 
 
 Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical
 
 
 
 What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size
 #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ?
 
 
 
 #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But 
 what about
 #17?
 
 
 
 In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any
 
 
 
 Thanks in advance
 
 
 
 73,
 
 Jorge
 
 CX6VM/CW5W
 
 
 
 ---
 El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca
 de virus.
 http://www.avast.com
 _
 Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: radial wire size

[donovanf]

Hi Jorge, 


Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only 
consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight 
out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two cases. 


Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or large!) 
electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into your radial 
system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than heavier 
wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many installations the 
buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any 
other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if this is a 
problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) 
to check for shield current. 


Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most soils 
are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some 
examples are: 
- soils with large quantities of organic matter, 
- poorly drained soils such as wetlands, 
- soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or 
fertilizers 
- soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 







- Original Message -

From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net 
To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband 
topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size 

The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical 
durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have 
a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively 
small percentage of the overall current in the system. 

I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I 
consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get 
it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 
foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years 
without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first 
season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. 

A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for 
building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular (hardware store) 
channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the 
heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. 

I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on 
the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more 
difference in your overall antenna system. 

-Bill 

 Hello 
 
 
 
 Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical 
 
 
 
 What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size 
 #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? 
 
 
 
 #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But 
 what about 
 #17? 
 
 
 
 In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if 
 any 
 
 
 
 Thanks in advance 
 
 
 
 73, 
 
 Jorge 
 
 CX6VM/CW5W 
 
 
 
 --- 
 El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca 
 de virus. 
 http://www.avast.com 
 _ 
 Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 
_ 
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: radial wire size

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

From Home Depot



$64.98 / roll
FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire 
http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Class-I-Barbed-Wire-317821A/202025609 



Model # 317821A



On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote:
In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) 
smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable.  Here in the Caribbean 
cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black 
market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed 
wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending 
upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such 
a solution is very questionable.



Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ

On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Hi Jorge,


Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only
consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight
out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two 
cases.



Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or 
large!)
electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into 
your radial
system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than 
heavier
wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many 
installations the

buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any
other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if 
this is a

problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM)
to check for shield current.


Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most 
soils

are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some
examples are:
- soils with large quantities of organic matter,
- poorly drained soils such as wetlands,
- soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or 
fertilizers

- soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks.


73
Frank
W3LPL







- Original Message -

From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net
To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband 
topband@contesting.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size

The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in 
physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since 
you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each 
one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current 
in the system.


I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since 
I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and 
I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although 
they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in 
place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns 
a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to 
see on the ground.


A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size 
for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular 
(hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any 
electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any 
difference in performance.


I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the 
money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it 
will make more difference in your overall antenna system.


-Bill


Hello



Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical



What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire 
size

#14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ?



#14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for 
radials. But what about

#17?



In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in 
performance, if any




Thanks in advance



73,

Jorge

CX6VM/CW5W



---
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico 
en busca

de virus.
http://www.avast.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: radial wire size

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Really?  They are selling that?  I can find tons of this, let me know if 
someone interested hi hi hi

-Mensaje original-
De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert 
Schoenbohm
Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 03:07 p.m.
Para: topband@contesting.com
Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size

I just saw on eBay a 3' piece of barbed wire dated 1878 for sale for
$9.78 which comes up to $3.26 per foot!  I guess this stuff gets more valuable 
with age like some good Uruguayan wine.?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-3-foot-piece-of-Barbed-Wire-Barb-Wire-Barbwire-Bobbed-Old-/121567131845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c4df738c5


Herb, KV4FZ

On 4/15/2015 1:47 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:
 Hi Herb

 Local price:

 #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft)
 #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft)

 Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if 
 after 2 years the radials disappear because of the corrosion

 73,
 Jorge


 -Mensaje original-
 De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de 
 Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: mi rcoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 
 p.m.
 Para: topband@contesting.com
 Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size

   From Home Depot



 $64.98 / roll
 FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire 
 http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Clas
 s-I-Ba
 rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609


 Model # 317821A



 On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote:
 In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) 
 smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable.  Here in the Caribbean 
 cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black 
 market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with 
 barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. 
 Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he 
 use of such a solution is very questionable.


 Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ

 On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
 Hi Jorge,


 Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the 
 only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out 
 of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at 
 least two cases.


 Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or
 large!)
 electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into 
 your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more 
 quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration 
 because in many installations the buried radial system has 
 significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your 
 home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in 
 your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check 
 for shield current.


 Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most 
 soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important 
 exceptions, some examples are:
 - soils with large quantities of organic matter,
 - poorly drained soils such as wetlands,
 - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals 
 or fertilizers
 - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks.


 73
 Frank
 W3LPL







 - Original Message -

 From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net
 To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband
 topband@contesting.com
 Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM
 Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size

 The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in 
 physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since 
 you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each 
 one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall 
 current in the system.

 I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size 
 since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical 
 durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my 
 supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had 
 some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. 
 Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's 
 almost impossible to see on the ground.

 A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size 
 for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular
 (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any 
 electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any 
 difference in performance.

 I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save 
 the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else 
 where it will make more difference in your overall antenna system.

 -Bill

 Hello



 Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical



 What is the difference in performance between installing radial 
 wire size
 #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ?



 #14 is the size that DXE sell

Re: Topband: radial wire size

[Jon Zaimes]

Loads around here too, some still in use. Some laying around on original 
spools, rusting away. Have pondered hooking up for Beverages.

I think I can beat his price :-)

73/Jon AA1K

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jorge Diez - 
CX6VM
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27 PM
To: 'Herbert Schoenbohm'; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size

Really?  They are selling that?  I can find tons of this, let me know if 
someone interested hi hi hi

-Mensaje original-
De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert 
Schoenbohm Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 03:07 p.m.
Para: topband@contesting.com
Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size

I just saw on eBay a 3' piece of barbed wire dated 1878 for sale for
$9.78 which comes up to $3.26 per foot!  I guess this stuff gets more valuable 
with age like some good Uruguayan wine.?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-3-foot-piece-of-Barbed-Wire-Barb-Wire-Barbwire-Bobbed-Old-/121567131845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c4df738c5


Herb, KV4FZ

On 4/15/2015 1:47 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:
 Hi Herb

 Local price:

 #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft)
 #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft)

 Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if 
 after 2 years the radials disappear because of the corrosion

 73,
 Jorge


 -Mensaje original-
 De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de 
 Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: mi rcoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 
 p.m.
 Para: topband@contesting.com
 Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size

   From Home Depot



 $64.98 / roll
 FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire 
 http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Clas
 s-I-Ba
 rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609


 Model # 317821A



 On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote:
 In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) 
 smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable.  Here in the Caribbean 
 cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black 
 market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with 
 barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install.
 Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he 
 use of such a solution is very questionable.


 Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ

 On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
 Hi Jorge,


 Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the 
 only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out 
 of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at 
 least two cases.


 Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or
 large!)
 electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into 
 your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more 
 quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration 
 because in many installations the buried radial system has 
 significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your 
 home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in 
 your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check 
 for shield current.


 Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most 
 soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important 
 exceptions, some examples are:
 - soils with large quantities of organic matter,
 - poorly drained soils such as wetlands,
 - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals 
 or fertilizers
 - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks.


 73
 Frank
 W3LPL







 - Original Message -

 From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net
 To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband
 topband@contesting.com
 Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM
 Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size

 The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in 
 physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since 
 you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each 
 one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall 
 current in the system.

 I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size 
 since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical 
 durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my 
 supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had 
 some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems.
 Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's 
 almost impossible to see on the ground.

 A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size 
 for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular
 (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any 
 electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any 
 difference in performance.

 I think

Re: Topband: radial wire size

[Art Snapper]

Ladder line constructed from barbed wire, could be the best thing in ham
radio since the G5RV.

Art

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Really?  They are selling that?  I can find tons of this, let me know if
 someone interested hi hi hi

 -Mensaje original-
 De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert
 Schoenbohm
 Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 03:07 p.m.
 Para: topband@contesting.com
 Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size

 I just saw on eBay a 3' piece of barbed wire dated 1878 for sale for
 $9.78 which comes up to $3.26 per foot!  I guess this stuff gets more
 valuable with age like some good Uruguayan wine.?


 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-3-foot-piece-of-Barbed-Wire-Barb-Wire-Barbwire-Bobbed-Old-/121567131845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c4df738c5


 Herb, KV4FZ

 On 4/15/2015 1:47 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:
  Hi Herb
 
  Local price:
 
  #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft)
  #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft)
 
  Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if
  after 2 years the radials disappear because of the corrosion
 
  73,
  Jorge
 
 
  -Mensaje original-
  De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de
  Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: mi rcoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06
  p.m.
  Para: topband@contesting.com
  Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size
 
From Home Depot
 
 
 
  $64.98 / roll
  FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire
  http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Clas
  s-I-Ba
  rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609
 
 
  Model # 317821A
 
 
 
  On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote:
  In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare)
  smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable.  Here in the Caribbean
  cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black
  market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with
  barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install.
  Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he
  use of such a solution is very questionable.
 
 
  Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ
 
  On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
  Hi Jorge,
 
 
  Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the
  only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out
  of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at
  least two cases.
 
 
  Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or
  large!)
  electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into
  your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more
  quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration
  because in many installations the buried radial system has
  significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your
  home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in
  your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check
  for shield current.
 
 
  Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most
  soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important
  exceptions, some examples are:
  - soils with large quantities of organic matter,
  - poorly drained soils such as wetlands,
  - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals
  or fertilizers
  - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks.
 
 
  73
  Frank
  W3LPL
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  - Original Message -
 
  From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net
  To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband
  topband@contesting.com
  Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM
  Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size
 
  The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in
  physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since
  you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each
  one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall
  current in the system.
 
  I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size
  since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical
  durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my
  supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had
  some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems.
  Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's
  almost impossible to see on the ground.
 
  A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size
  for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular
  (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any
  electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any
  difference in performance.
 
  I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save
  the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else
  where it will make

Re: Topband: radial wire size

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,4/15/2015 8:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system.


I agree that mechanical durability and environmental factors are the 
limit on the size and type wire for both radials and antennas.


In my limited experience, the use of insulated wire significantly 
reduces corrosion. I've built a lot of wire antennas using THHN 
(ordinary house wire). When I've examined wires that have been up for 8 
years or so, the only corrosion I've seen is very close to the ends, 
while the wire a few inches inside the insulation are clean and brite.


I've since gone to hard drawn copper for my high wire antennas, 
primarily to minimize stretch.  With 100# or more of tension on them, I 
had to lower my 80M dipoles every couple of years to shorten them. For 
hard drawn copper, I buy a spool of bare #8 from a big box store, tie 
one end to a tree, the other to a trailer hitch, and pull very slowly 
until it breaks. This yields hard drawn copper, roughly 15-20% longer, 
approximately #9.


73, Jim K9YC

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: radial wire size

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Hi Herb

Local price:

#17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft)
#14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft)

Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if after 2
years the radials disappear because of the corrosion

73,
Jorge


-Mensaje original-
De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert
Schoenbohm
Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 p.m.
Para: topband@contesting.com
Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size

 From Home Depot



$64.98 / roll
FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire
http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Class-I-Ba
rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609 


Model # 317821A



On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote:
 In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) 
 smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable.  Here in the Caribbean 
 cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black 
 market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed 
 wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending 
 upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such 
 a solution is very questionable.


 Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ

 On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
 Hi Jorge,


 Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only
 consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight
 out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two 
 cases.


 Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or 
 large!)
 electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into 
 your radial
 system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than 
 heavier
 wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many 
 installations the
 buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any
 other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if 
 this is a
 problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM)
 to check for shield current.


 Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most 
 soils
 are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some
 examples are:
 - soils with large quantities of organic matter,
 - poorly drained soils such as wetlands,
 - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or 
 fertilizers
 - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks.


 73
 Frank
 W3LPL







 - Original Message -

 From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net
 To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband 
 topband@contesting.com
 Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM
 Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size

 The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in 
 physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since 
 you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each 
 one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current 
 in the system.

 I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since 
 I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and 
 I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although 
 they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in 
 place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns 
 a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to 
 see on the ground.

 A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size 
 for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular 
 (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any 
 electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any 
 difference in performance.

 I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the 
 money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it 
 will make more difference in your overall antenna system.

 -Bill

 Hello



 Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical



 What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire 
 size
 #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ?



 #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for 
 radials. But what about
 #17?



 In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in 
 performance, if any



 Thanks in advance



 73,

 Jorge

 CX6VM/CW5W



 ---
 El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico 
 en busca
 de virus.
 http://www.avast.com
 _
 Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
 _
 Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
 _
 Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

 _
 Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


---
El software de

Re: Topband: radial wire size

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

I just saw on eBay a 3' piece of barbed wire dated 1878 for sale for 
$9.78 which comes up to $3.26 per foot!  I guess this stuff gets more 
valuable with age like some good Uruguayan wine.☺


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-3-foot-piece-of-Barbed-Wire-Barb-Wire-Barbwire-Bobbed-Old-/121567131845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c4df738c5


Herb, KV4FZ

On 4/15/2015 1:47 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:

Hi Herb

Local price:

#17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft)
#14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft)

Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if after 2
years the radials disappear because of the corrosion

73,
Jorge


-Mensaje original-
De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert
Schoenbohm
Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 p.m.
Para: topband@contesting.com
Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size

  From Home Depot



$64.98 / roll
FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire
http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Class-I-Ba
rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609


Model # 317821A



On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote:

In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare)
smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable.  Here in the Caribbean
cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black
market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed
wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending
upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such
a solution is very questionable.


Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ

On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Hi Jorge,


Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only
consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight
out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two
cases.


Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or
large!)
electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into
your radial
system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than
heavier
wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many
installations the
buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any
other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if
this is a
problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM)
to check for shield current.


Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most
soils
are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some
examples are:
- soils with large quantities of organic matter,
- poorly drained soils such as wetlands,
- soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or
fertilizers
- soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks.


73
Frank
W3LPL







- Original Message -

From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net
To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband
topband@contesting.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size

The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in
physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since
you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each
one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current
in the system.

I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since
I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and
I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although
they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in
place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns
a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to
see on the ground.

A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size
for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular
(hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any
electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any
difference in performance.

I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the
money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it
will make more difference in your overall antenna system.

-Bill


Hello



Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical



What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire
size
#14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ?



#14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for
radials. But what about
#17?



In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in
performance, if any



Thanks in advance



73,

Jorge

CX6VM/CW5W



---
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico
en busca
de virus.
http://www.avast.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Tom W8JI]

On your mention of Silver solder, do you mean typical circuit board silver
solder or the real silver solder, such as used on copper tubing in high
pressure refrigeration systems?
I used the real silver solder to solder 3/8 copper tubing to Stainless
Steel Ground rods below ground level.


I use KappTecZ when the joint is likely to have direct earth exposure or 
stress in the joint, although regular solder or silver solder from my 
wife's stained glass stuff has never given me problems above ground. 
KappTecZ solders almost anything very well with the correct flux.


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Hi

Where to buy KappTecZ in USA?

Couldn´t find it in eBay

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

-Mensaje original-
De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Tom W8JI
Enviado el: jueves, 23 de octubre de 2014 09:50 a.m.
Para: jbw...@comcast.net; topband@contesting.com
Asunto: Re: Topband: Radial Wire

 On your mention of Silver solder, do you mean typical circuit board 
 silver solder or the real silver solder, such as used on copper 
 tubing in high pressure refrigeration systems?
 I used the real silver solder to solder 3/8 copper tubing to 
 Stainless Steel Ground rods below ground level.

I use KappTecZ when the joint is likely to have direct earth exposure or
stress in the joint, although regular solder or silver solder from my
wife's stained glass stuff has never given me problems above ground. 
KappTecZ solders almost anything very well with the correct flux.

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


---
Este mensaje no contiene virus ni malware porque la protección de avast! 
Antivirus está activa.
http://www.avast.com

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Tom W8JI]

Where to buy KappTecZ in USA?

This link:

http://www.kappalloy.com/products-solder.php




_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Radial Wire

[Jim Brown]

On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote:

You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less common. 
I've seen Home Depot stock it before.


Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot 
and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or 
6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in 
place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely 
available at good prices.


73, Jim K9YC


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[donovanf]

iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable, 
consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores and 
electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the 
convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts 
an offer of 90% of his asking price. 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_ipg=_from= 

For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00 
per reel plus ten dollars for shipping. 

73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com 
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:42:03 PM 
Subject: Topband: Radial Wire 

On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote: 
 You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less 
 common. I've seen Home Depot stock it before. 

Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot 
and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or 
6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in 
place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely 
available at good prices. 

73, Jim K9YC 


_ 
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Carl]

Good link Frank, thanks. Some here might be interested in some of these. 
That #12 copperclad could be interesting if the copper is thick enough for 
160 transmitting and you can overlook the color!



http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-FT-COPPER-CLAD-STEEL-TRACER-LOCATING-WIRE-12-AWG-30-V-YELLOW-Made-in-USA-/251658885983?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3a9809db5f


http://www.ebay.com/itm/500FT-UNDERGROUND-PET-FENCE-WIRE-18AWG-SOLID-GREEN-30-MIL-JACKET-MADE-IN-USA-/251663392372?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3a984e9e74

http://www.ebay.com/itm/500-FT-TFN-TEWN-WIRE-18-AWG-SOLID-600-V-MADE-IN-USA-3-COLORS-AVAILABLE-/251558308312?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3a920b29d8


http://www.ebay.com/itm/500FT-UNDERGROUND-PET-FENCE-WIRE-16AWG-SOLID-ORANGE-30-MIL-JACKET-MADE-IN-USA-/251673136635?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3a98e34dfb

Carl
KM1H

From: donov...@starpower.net
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Wire



iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable,
consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores 
and

electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the
convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts
an offer of 90% of his asking price.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_ipg=_from=

For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00
per reel plus ten dollars for shipping.

73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:42:03 PM
Subject: Topband: Radial Wire

On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote:
You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less 
common. I've seen Home Depot stock it before.


Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot
and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or
6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in
place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely
available at good prices.

73, Jim K9YC


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5315 / Virus Database: 4181/8433 - Release Date: 10/22/14



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Mike Waters]

You bet it is! Those prices are the best I've seen in some time.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 2:55 PM, Carl k...@jeremy.qozzy.com wrote:

 Good link Frank, thanks.

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[mstangelo]

I'd use their dog wire because it has PE insulation.

Mike N2MS
- Original Message -
From: donov...@starpower.net
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:17:06 - (UTC)
Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Wire

iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable, 
consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores and 
electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the 
convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts 
an offer of 90% of his asking price. 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_ipg=_from= 

For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00 
per reel plus ten dollars for shipping. 

73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Gary K9GS]

Frank,

Thank you very much for this source.  I was just looking this week for 
wire prices.  I want to buy quite a lot for next summer's antenna project.


The nice thing is he's close enough I'll probably pick it up and save 
shipping.


BTW...any thoughts on solid vs stranded?  I do like to use insulated 
wire as I think it lasts longer.  I was thinking 16 or 18 ga.



On 10/22/2014 1:17 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable,
consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores and
electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the
convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts
an offer of 90% of his asking price.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_ipg=_from=

For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00
per reel plus ten dollars for shipping.

73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:42:03 PM
Subject: Topband: Radial Wire

On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote:

You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less common. 
I've seen Home Depot stock it before.

Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot
and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or
6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in
place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely
available at good prices.

73, Jim K9YC


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


--
73,

Gary K9GS

Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
CW Ops #1032   http://www.cwops.org



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Bill Wichers]

Solid will generally hold up better regarding corrosion, but stranded holds up 
better if subjected to mechanical stress. Solid is also easier to solder 
properly, imho. Pick the type best suited to the area your radial field is in. 
If your radial field gets walked on frequently then stranded is probably the 
better choice. Solid is generally a better choice in areas that won't be 
subject to mechanical stresses from walkers and the like. 

Also, I agree with the other poster that the dog run wire is probably the 
best of the options available from that seller due to it having a polyethylene 
jacket. I'd personally go with dark colors too to hide in the grass as well as 
for better uv resistance. 

-Bill KB8WYP

Sent from my iPad

 On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Gary K9GS garyk...@wi.rr.com wrote:
 
 Frank,
 
 Thank you very much for this source.  I was just looking this week for wire 
 prices.  I want to buy quite a lot for next summer's antenna project.
 
 The nice thing is he's close enough I'll probably pick it up and save 
 shipping.
 
 BTW...any thoughts on solid vs stranded?  I do like to use insulated wire as 
 I think it lasts longer.  I was thinking 16 or 18 ga.
 
 
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Charlie]

I've had very good success with 16 ga stranded  with black insulation for
radials! Seems to hold up well and not very obtrusive or noticeable. Last
time I got some, I also got a 1000' spool.

73,
Charlie, K4OTV

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
donov...@starpower.net
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:17 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Wire

iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable,
consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores and
electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the
convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts an
offer of 90% of his asking price. 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_ipg=_from= 

For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00
per reel plus ten dollars for shipping. 

73
Frank
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:42:03 PM
Subject: Topband: Radial Wire 

On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote: 
 You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less
common. I've seen Home Depot stock it before. 

Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot and
Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or
6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in place a
bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely available at
good prices. 

73, Jim K9YC 


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[donovanf]

Hi Gary, 

I've used bare 14 AWG solid bare copper wire with good success in 
shallow buried radial systems. It would be a poor choice in corrosive 
soil (my heavy clay soil is not corrosive). 

I use 16 AWG stranded insulated copper wire for radials for temporary 
receiving arrays in areas with heavy foot traffic by herds of white tail 
deer. 

73 
Frank 
W3LPL 


- Original Message -

From: Gary K9GS garyk...@wi.rr.com 
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 1:24:20 AM 
Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Wire 

Frank, 

Thank you very much for this source. I was just looking this week for 
wire prices. I want to buy quite a lot for next summer's antenna project. 

The nice thing is he's close enough I'll probably pick it up and save 
shipping. 

BTW...any thoughts on solid vs stranded? I do like to use insulated 
wire as I think it lasts longer. I was thinking 16 or 18 ga. 


On 10/22/2014 1:17 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 
 iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable, 
 consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores and 
 electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the 
 convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts 
 an offer of 90% of his asking price. 
 
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_ipg=_from= 
 
 For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00 
 per reel plus ten dollars for shipping. 
 
 73 
 Frank 
 W3LPL 
 
 - Original Message - 
 
 From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com 
 To: topband@contesting.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:42:03 PM 
 Subject: Topband: Radial Wire 
 
 On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote: 
 You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less 
 common. I've seen Home Depot stock it before. 
 Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot 
 and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or 
 6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in 
 place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely 
 available at good prices. 
 
 73, Jim K9YC 
 
 
 _ 
 Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 
 
 _ 
 Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 
 
 
 -- 
 73, 
 
 Gary K9GS 
 
 Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org 
 Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com 
 CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org 
 
  
_ 
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Charlie]

Thank heavens, I don't have deer to contend with  on my city lot! Main
critters  here are squirrels (tree rats), rabbits, possums, the
occasional raccoon or fox, and some geese from time to time. If I had deer
or other larger animals to deal with, I'd surely use something heavier and
put it higher than their heads, if I couldn't bury it! I did, not long ago,
get rid of a huge spool of 10- ga magnet wire ( hard-drawn, I think). I've
regretted getting rid of it! I had built a lot of antennas with it and it
was virtually indestructible! Took a really substantial iron to solder it!
I got the huge spool of magnet wire free from a previous employer, who was
clearing out a storage area in preparation for selling off the plant. One of
the veeps, who was supervising the clean-out, gave it to me, and I loaded it
on my pickup and took it home and used it for years for antennas -never made
much of a dent in  that huge spool! Took two strong men to get it on the bed
of my pickup!

73,
Charlie, K4OTV
  

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
donov...@starpower.net
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:05 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Cc: garyk...@wi.rr.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Wire

Hi Gary, 

I've used bare 14 AWG solid bare copper wire with good success in shallow
buried radial systems. It would be a poor choice in corrosive soil (my heavy
clay soil is not corrosive). 

I use 16 AWG stranded insulated copper wire for radials for temporary
receiving arrays in areas with heavy foot traffic by herds of white tail
deer. 

73
Frank
W3LPL 


- Original Message -

From: Gary K9GS garyk...@wi.rr.com
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 1:24:20 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Wire 

Frank, 

Thank you very much for this source. I was just looking this week for wire
prices. I want to buy quite a lot for next summer's antenna project. 

The nice thing is he's close enough I'll probably pick it up and save
shipping. 

BTW...any thoughts on solid vs stranded? I do like to use insulated wire as
I think it lasts longer. I was thinking 16 or 18 ga. 


On 10/22/2014 1:17 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 
 iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable,

 consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores
and 
 electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the 
 convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts 
 an offer of 90% of his asking price. 
 
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_ipg=_from= 
 
 For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00 
 per reel plus ten dollars for shipping. 
 
 73 
 Frank 
 W3LPL 
 
 - Original Message - 
 
 From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com 
 To: topband@contesting.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:42:03 PM 
 Subject: Topband: Radial Wire 
 
 On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote: 
 You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less
common. I've seen Home Depot stock it before. 
 Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot 
 and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or 
 6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in 
 place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely 
 available at good prices. 
 
 73, Jim K9YC 
 
 
 _ 
 Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 
 
 _ 
 Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 
 
 
 -- 
 73, 
 
 Gary K9GS 
 
 Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org 
 Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com 
 CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org 
 
  
_ 
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Tom W8JI]

Thank you very much for this source.  I was just looking this week for 
wire prices.  I want to buy quite a lot for next summer's antenna project.


The nice thing is he's close enough I'll probably pick it up and save 
shipping.


BTW...any thoughts on solid vs stranded?  I do like to use insulated wire 
as I think it lasts longer.  I was thinking 16 or 18 ga.


When I did AM broadcast work, we would pull solid wire out of all sorts of 
stations built in the 1920's and 30's in all types of soil. Unless it was 
actually cut, it would be good.


In my own Ham stuff, I primarily use #16 bare copper bus (which is soft 
drawn) wire. It lasts longer than I ever keep a house unless physically cut. 
If I pull some up after several years in the ground, it just barely shows 
light surface corrosion.


I install mine with a plow on a tractor. I can pull a six inch deep radial, 
or any depth I want, at a few MPH. I have never broken a #16 wire pulling it 
into the ground. I have never seen one fail from lightning.


I personally would stay away from stranded copper, and would especially stay 
away from aluminum, steel, or steel cored wire (watch what you buy). Any 
solid copper #16 or larger, especially soft drawn, will last a lot longer 
than most of use ever will. I would not be afraid of anything solid copper 
and #16 or larger size.


If you never plan on long term direct soil exposure, never plan on soldering 
it later for an alteration or repair without doing a lot of cleaning work, 
and never plan on silver soldering, stranded copper is also OK. I use 
stranded insulated #14 on my 40M 4 square stuff because it is surface wire. 
The aluminum wire I installed several years ago on that system is falling 
apart, but the insulated stranded copper is still good. 


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[James Wolf]

Tom,

On your mention of Silver solder, do you mean typical circuit board silver
solder or the real silver solder, such as used on copper tubing in high
pressure refrigeration systems?
I used the real silver solder to solder 3/8 copper tubing to Stainless
Steel Ground rods below ground level.

Jim - KR9U


When I did AM broadcast work, we would pull solid wire out of all sorts of
stations built in the 1920's and 30's in all types of soil. Unless it was
actually cut, it would be good.

In my own Ham stuff, I primarily use #16 bare copper bus (which is soft
drawn) wire. It lasts longer than I ever keep a house unless physically cut.

If I pull some up after several years in the ground, it just barely shows
light surface corrosion.

I install mine with a plow on a tractor. I can pull a six inch deep radial,
or any depth I want, at a few MPH. I have never broken a #16 wire pulling it
into the ground. I have never seen one fail from lightning.

I personally would stay away from stranded copper, and would especially stay
away from aluminum, steel, or steel cored wire (watch what you buy). Any
solid copper #16 or larger, especially soft drawn, will last a lot longer
than most of use ever will. I would not be afraid of anything solid copper
and #16 or larger size.

If you never plan on long term direct soil exposure, never plan on soldering
it later for an alteration or repair without doing a lot of cleaning work,
and never plan on silver soldering, stranded copper is also OK. I use
stranded insulated #14 on my 40M 4 square stuff because it is surface wire. 
The aluminum wire I installed several years ago on that system is falling
apart, but the insulated stranded copper is still good. 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial Wire

[Gary K9GS]

Thanks for all the great information.  I appreciate your experience.

My current installation is in the woods, not in a clear field.  I, 
unfortunately, won't have the luxury of burying the wire.  I'll have to 
lay it on the surface with staples holding it down.


Not much foot traffic to contend with but there are a lot of deer, 
squirrels and various wildlife to contend with.


This is to replace an existing radial field.  The majority of the wire 
used was the old 5 or 8 conductor ribbon style rotor cable that was 
separated into individual strands.  I've found many broken strands and 
the poor insulation hasn't weathered well.  Of course I'll leave the old 
radial field in place and just lay the new ones on top.


As others have mentioned the 16 ga stranded dog fence stuff looks pretty 
rugged.




On 10/22/2014 9:35 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:

Thank you very much for this source.  I was just looking this week for
wire prices.  I want to buy quite a lot for next summer's antenna
project.

The nice thing is he's close enough I'll probably pick it up and save
shipping.

BTW...any thoughts on solid vs stranded?  I do like to use insulated
wire as I think it lasts longer.  I was thinking 16 or 18 ga.


When I did AM broadcast work, we would pull solid wire out of all sorts
of stations built in the 1920's and 30's in all types of soil. Unless it
was actually cut, it would be good.

In my own Ham stuff, I primarily use #16 bare copper bus (which is soft
drawn) wire. It lasts longer than I ever keep a house unless physically
cut. If I pull some up after several years in the ground, it just barely
shows light surface corrosion.

I install mine with a plow on a tractor. I can pull a six inch deep
radial, or any depth I want, at a few MPH. I have never broken a #16
wire pulling it into the ground. I have never seen one fail from lightning.

I personally would stay away from stranded copper, and would especially
stay away from aluminum, steel, or steel cored wire (watch what you
buy). Any solid copper #16 or larger, especially soft drawn, will last a
lot longer than most of use ever will. I would not be afraid of anything
solid copper and #16 or larger size.

If you never plan on long term direct soil exposure, never plan on
soldering it later for an alteration or repair without doing a lot of
cleaning work, and never plan on silver soldering, stranded copper is
also OK. I use stranded insulated #14 on my 40M 4 square stuff because
it is surface wire. The aluminum wire I installed several years ago on
that system is falling apart, but the insulated stranded copper is still
good.



--
73,

Gary K9GS

Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
CW Ops #1032   http://www.cwops.org


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Radial wire size ?

[Jim F.]

I use 3 raised radials ~ 135 feet long of #22 ga. solid wire.
 used for dog perimeter control and is un-tinned copper

 covered with green plastic. The wire is about 11 feet
high to keep it out of the way in the common property
woods area of multi building condos and will be taken 
down when the weather starts to warm.

The resistance of 135 feet of copper wire is:
#22 ga.   2.18  Ohms
#20 ga.  1.37   Ohms
#16 ga.   0.5    Ohms

Per the calculator at :
http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html

Measuring the current in each of the three 22 ga. radials
 with an old surplus RF ammeter while running 5 watts 
on  1.824 Mhz   (in the middle of the afternoon :-)
 they measure in turn: 240, 120, and 170 ma.

Would going to 16 ga. increase the radiated antenna
current X times ?

BTW,
The wire held up very well in the many NH ice and snow 
storms this year but the green plastic coating reflects
 morning light and at dusk like a neon sign.  Very scary 
in this condo enviornment with restrictive covenants and
 regulations. Next year I will try dull brown #16 ga. like the
 inverted U, which is far less visible.

72,

Jim / W1FMR
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire size ?

[Jim Brown]

On 2/25/2014 9:45 AM, Jim F. wrote:

Would going to 16 ga. increase the radiated antenna
current X times ?


Not enough to matter, but it certainly would not hurt. For next year, 
though, I would try to use more radials. Having them elevated is good, 
and elevating them even more is better.


73, Jim K9YC

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire size ?

[Bill Wichers]

You could use the 18 gauge insulated stranded CCS (Copper Clad Steel) wire that 
Davis RF and The Wireman sell. The PE jacket is a matte black color and not 
very visible from any distance away. It's pretty strong too, and not very 
expensive. I use it a lot for wire antennas.

I'm amazed your 22 gauge wire is holding up for elevated radials! Especially 
135 feet long! I would expect such small wire to break pretty quick used in 
your application so I'm really surprised it's working for you.

Regarding the resistance, I doubt it would make much of a difference. I'd go 
with larger wire more for strength than anything else. I use 18 gauge solid 
copper for my own on-ground radials (but I have some 40(ish) of them). 

-Bill

 I use 3 raised radials ~ 135 feet long of #22 ga. solid wire.
  used for dog perimeter control and is un-tinned copper
 
  covered with green plastic. The wire is about 11 feet high to keep it out of
 the way in the common property woods area of multi building condos and
 will be taken down when the weather starts to warm.
 
 The resistance of 135 feet of copper wire is:
 #22 ga.   2.18  Ohms
 #20 ga.  1.37   Ohms
 #16 ga.   0.5    Ohms
[snip]
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Radial wire in bulk

[ZR]

Check at the metal recyclers; Teflon insulated wire brings little money as 
scrap and is rather common where there is high tech and military 
contractors. Regular tinned copper and stranded PVC insulated is also common 
and around here magnet wire as used in motor shops is hard to find in any 
quantity on a regular basis.


Sometimes Fleabay is good when shipped from close by. I got all my military 
telephone Beverage wire real cheap since its listing description was 
misleading, $25 for 2.5km was hard to take!


Hamfests have always been good hunting during a poor economy.

Carl


- Original Message - 
From: AA8R - Notebook a...@aol.com

To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 9:33 AM
Subject: Topband: Radial wire in bulk



Hi all,



Can anyone suggest a good online resource to purchase wire in bulk?  I am 
in

the process of laying down a radial system for a 160m Inverted L.



Randy, AA8R

_
Topband Reflector


-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3209/6027 - Release Date: 07/28/13



_
Topband Reflector

Topband: Radial wire in bulk

[AA8R - Notebook]

Hi all,

 

Can anyone suggest a good online resource to purchase wire in bulk?  I am in
the process of laying down a radial system for a 160m Inverted L.

 

Randy, AA8R

_
Topband Reflector

Topband: Radial Wire Source

[Terry Posey]

Consolidated Electronic Wire and Cable http://www.conwire.com/ sells bulk
quantities of solid copper tinned wire, available in many AWG sizes.  Prices
seem to track copper commodities prices.image that.

 

73,  Terry K4RX

 

 

___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Topband: radial wire source

[Dan Bookwalter]

I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances changed and I 
couldn't do anything about it at the time...

So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was thinking of 
either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go with the radials I 
was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 radials that in theory would 
help absorb any lightning impulses (per W8JI website) , then I was going to use 
whatever wire I can find for the remaining 40 or 50 radials. My radial field 
can only cover from about SW thru North over to East.


Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check with the 
local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly they weren't much 
better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for $50 I would need about 3000 
feet.

Dan
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: radial wire source

[W2XJ]

You really do not need stranded wire. Bare solid wire is typically used
for grounds. and while the standard of 120 radials spaced 3 degress is a
well known standard for ground systems, it is very rare in amateur
radio. Anything beyond 12 1/8 wavelength radials is a plus. I would
check an electrical wholesaler and price bare copper in bulk. Usually
#10 is used but I see no serious reason why   #12 or even #14 would work
in this application. I prefer a buried ground (or at least on the
surface) over elevated for various reasons.

Having installed many MW systems, I can tell you the ideal is not always
achieved. At the end of the day, get as much wire in the ground wherever
it is possible.

On 6/5/12 9:01 AM, Dan Bookwalter wrote:
  I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances changed 
 and I couldn't do anything about it at the time...

  So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was thinking 
 of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go with the 
 radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 radials that in 
 theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per W8JI website) , then I 
 was going to use whatever wire I can find for the remaining 40 or 50 radials. 
 My radial field can only cover from about SW thru North over to East.


  Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check with 
 the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly they weren't 
 much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for $50 I would need 
 about 3000 feet.

  Dan
  ___
  UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK


___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: radial wire source

[DAVID CUTHBERT]

I use #14 stranded THHN wire from Home Despot because it's easy work work
with.

Dave WX7G
On Jun 5, 2012 9:23 AM, W2XJ w...@nyc.rr.com wrote:














 You really do not need stranded wire. Bare solid wire is typically used
 for grounds. and while the standard of 120 radials spaced 3 degress is a
 well known standard for ground systems, it is very rare in amateur
 radio. Anything beyond 12 1/8 wavelength radials is a plus. I would
 check an electrical wholesaler and price bare copper in bulk. Usually
 #10 is used but I see no serious reason why   #12 or even #14 would work
 in this application. I prefer a buried ground (or at least on the
 surface) over elevated for various reasons.

 Having installed many MW systems, I can tell you the ideal is not always
 achieved. At the end of the day, get as much wire in the ground wherever
 it is possible.

 On 6/5/12 9:01 AM, Dan Bookwalter wrote:
   I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances
 changed and I couldn't do anything about it at the time...
 
   So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was
 thinking of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go with
 the radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 radials that
 in theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per W8JI website) ,
 then I was going to use whatever wire I can find for the remaining 40 or 50
 radials. My radial field can only cover from about SW thru North over to
 East.
 
 
   Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check
 with the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly they
 weren't much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for $50 I
 would need about 3000 feet.
 
   Dan
   ___
   UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
 

 ___
 UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: radial wire source

[Jim Brown]

On 6/5/2012 9:08 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote:
 I use #14 stranded THHN wire from Home Despot because it's easy work work 
 with.

I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded, 
and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire.  I would 
love to use #18, but have not been able to find a  source for it in 
quantity.  Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a 
quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools.

73, Jim K9YC
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: radial wire source

[Eric Tichansky NO3M]

Also check what might be available from the Wireman.  I picked up 
a 5000 ft spool of twin-lead (#18?) from them a couple years ago 
for $100.  It was a bit of a job splitting it, mainly from the 
tendency to twist when pulling the insulation apart in the 
middle.  However, cutting to the desired radial length and 
connecting one end to a pulley w/ a pivot took care of that.  
Having two people pulling it apart while walking out from center 
also helps to keep tension on both wires and avoid it balling up 
where it is splitting/twisting.  All said and done, 1+ ft of 
radials for about $0.01/ft and it's held up fine over the past 
two years.

73 - Eric NO3M

On 06/05/12 12:18, Jim Brown wrote:
 I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded,
 and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire.  I would
 love to use #18, but have not been able to find a  source for it in
 quantity.  Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a
 quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools.

 73, Jim K9YC
 ___
 UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[jcjacobsen]

Dan is looking for radial wire. 

I've been lucky to find spools on sale at the local Big Box stores. Another 
source, again if you watch for sales, is 14-2 awg w/ground NM Romex type cable. 
Run an inexpensive Romex splitter over it and you have 750 feet of radials from 
a 250 foot coil. It's a little work, but it's going in the ground... 
PLUS 1/3 of the radials are bare copper. Good luck with the project. 

73 es GDDX 
K9WN Jake 
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Jim Brown]

On 6/5/2012 9:57 AM, jcjacob...@q.com wrote:
 Another source, again if you watch for sales, is 14-2 awg w/ground NM Romex 
 type cable.

Yes. I just did that with a 25 ft piece of #10-2 Romex to build some 
loading coils.  The big box store didn't have any #10 solid.

73, Jim K9YC
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: radial wire source

[Pete Smith N4ZR]

and then there's the 6000 ft spool of insulated, tinned #16 that I found 
at the Dayton flea market for $20.  It'll probably outlast me.

73, Pete N4ZR
The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at 
reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 and
arcluster.reversebeacon.net, port 7000


On 6/5/2012 12:38 PM, Eric Tichansky NO3M wrote:
 Also check what might be available from the Wireman.  I picked up
 a 5000 ft spool of twin-lead (#18?) from them a couple years ago
 for $100.  It was a bit of a job splitting it, mainly from the
 tendency to twist when pulling the insulation apart in the
 middle.  However, cutting to the desired radial length and
 connecting one end to a pulley w/ a pivot took care of that.
 Having two people pulling it apart while walking out from center
 also helps to keep tension on both wires and avoid it balling up
 where it is splitting/twisting.  All said and done, 1+ ft of
 radials for about $0.01/ft and it's held up fine over the past
 two years.

 73 - Eric NO3M

 On 06/05/12 12:18, Jim Brown wrote:
 I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded,
 and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire.  I would
 love to use #18, but have not been able to find a  source for it in
 quantity.  Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a
 quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools.

 73, Jim K9YC
 ___
 UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
 ___
 UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: radial wire source

[Lloyd Berg N9LB]

Hi Dan!

I use #12 solid solid copper THHN house wire - around here Menards has 
the best price, HD has gotten very expensive in the last year.

I strip the insulation off with a little jig I made utilizing an 
imbedded utility knife blade.  I like the direct copper to soil DC 
contact rather than laying insulated wire on/in the ground.  Also the 
solid bare copper wire won't leach away into the soil for 40-50 years.

Never bury bare stranded wire because it disintegrates way too fast, 
which is why the National Electrical Code requires that all ground wire 
be solid.

73

Lloyd - N9LB


On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Dan Bookwalter wrote:

 I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances 
 changed and I couldn't do anything about it at the time...

 So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was 
 thinking of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go 
 with the radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 
 radials that in theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per 
 W8JI website) , then I was going to use whatever wire I can find for 
 the remaining 40 or 50 radials. My radial field can only cover from 
 about SW thru North over to East.


 Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check 
 with the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly 
 they weren't much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for 
 $50 I would need about 3000 feet.

 Dan
 ___
 UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: radial wire source

[Wes Attaway (N5WA)]

A number of years ago I got a partially used bucket (spool in a bucket) of
#18 solid copper wire from a motor rewinding shop.  The wire had a thin coat
of enamel-like HV insulation on it so it was impervious to any degrading
from soil or other elements.  I had to scrape off the insulation to solder,
but otherwise it was real good stuff.  I got a few thousand feet for not
much money.

- Wes Attaway (N5WA) --- 
1138 Waters Edge Circle, Shreveport, LA 71106 
318-797-4972 (Office) - 318-393-3289 (Cell) 
Computer Consulting and Forensics 
-- EnCase Certified Examiner --- 

-Original Message-
From: topband-boun...@contesting.com [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com]
On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:18 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire source

On 6/5/2012 9:08 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote:
 I use #14 stranded THHN wire from Home Despot because it's easy work work
with.

I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded, 
and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire.  I would 
love to use #18, but have not been able to find a  source for it in 
quantity.  Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a 
quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools.

73, Jim K9YC
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: radial wire source

[Bill Wichers]

I buy 5,000 foot reels (which is the minimum order from my supplier) of
18 awg solid copper wire from a local wholesale wire supply house. You
should be able to get most electrical supply houses to order that for
you. My local shop I've worked with for years, they specialize in
communications and security wire but can order just about anything.
Pricing was around $53/1,000 feet. 

  -Bill

 On 6/5/2012 9:08 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote:
  I use #14 stranded THHN wire from Home Despot because it's easy work
 work with.
 
 I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded,
 and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire.  I
would
 love to use #18, but have not been able to find a  source for it in
 quantity.  Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a
 quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools.
 
 73, Jim K9YC
 ___
 UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: radial wire source

[Herb Schoenbohm]

On 6/5/2012 2:08 PM, Lloyd Berg N9LB wrote in part:
 I like the direct copper to soil DC contact rather than laying insulated wire 
 on/in the ground.  Also the solid bare copper wire won't leach away into the 
 soil for 40-50 years.

 Never bury bare stranded wire because it disintegrates way too fast,
 which is why the National Electrical Code requires that all ground wire
 be solid.


Lloyd,

I don't think that statement, about you having any benefit of bare 
copper in contact with earth, is completely correct. I always thought 
the whole purpose of a good ground system under a Marconi type vertical 
antenna was to make the currents flow in a highly conductive medium 
rather than in a lossy one like soil. (Which varies in conductivity all 
over the place.)  Under you vertical on 160 is the one place you don't 
want your RF return path currents to flow is in a dissipating 
diaelectric soil with bare copper wire in contact with it.  IMHO the 
radial system replaces the lossy medium by replacing it with a highly 
conductive medium.  Reading the wonderful material from Guy, K2AV, I 
think demonstrates that principle, irrespective of the lack of quality 
of earth underneath, is found in his  FCP counter poise design.

So I would think that insulated wire laying on the ground or just below 
the grass is not only the easiest way to go but may also be more 
efficient.  Laying inexpensive solid or stranded  #16 on the grass held 
in place by fencing hook or large stapes pounded down in the earth will 
bury themselves under the growing grass mat in a few weeks, enough so 
that a mower or a string trier will not snag them.

Another issue today is that if copper thieves see bare wire they will 
just rip it out of the ground.  Insulated #16 stranded is essentially 
worthless to them.

Herb,  KV4FZ
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK