Re: Topband: TX relays
On 10/13/2014 6:12 PM, Paul Baldock wrote: What's the Mouser Part Number? - Paul See them all at: http://www.mouser.com/catalog/catalogusd/647/2105.pdf The Array Solutions offering seems to be this part number: Mouser SKU: 653-MJN2CE-DC12 Omron P/N: MJN2CE-DC12 The plastic mounting feet are a fairly unique feature on these that I immediately recognized, so I am confident that I have this right. Mouser also carries the 10A versions that plug into sockets. There are some additional models on the Omron site that Mouser doesn't carry. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
I looked over data sheets for a variety of DPDT relays but eventually bought mine from Array Solutions. Why? There were a lot of choices and I really wasn't sure which was best suited for my application. I I had already bought these from Mouser before knowing that Array Solutions also sold them. Surprisingly, they are actually cheaper from Array Solutions than Mouser, at least in ham quantities. One of the things I like on these is the standard spade lugs that mate with standard crimp-on receptacles. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
What's the Mouser Part Number? - Paul At 03:53 PM 10/13/2014, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: I looked over data sheets for a variety of DPDT relays but eventually bought mine from Array Solutions. Why? There were a lot of choices and I really wasn't sure which was best suited for my application. I I had already bought these from Mouser before knowing that Array Solutions also sold them. Surprisingly, they are actually cheaper from Array Solutions than Mouser, at least in ham quantities. One of the things I like on these is the standard spade lugs that mate with standard crimp-on receptacles. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8381 - Release Date: 10/13/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Top Band members will benefit from an end to this squabbling that erupts often 'tween you two! Sheesh - I've been reading the replies from all and have learned quite a bituntil you, Carl, opted to get into Tom's face for some miniscule reason that dips down into the minutiae of life!! Give it a rest, ok Tom not answering your petty sniffling over a $10.00 difference 'tween two stinking relays - a tangential topic/subject which has ZERO to do with the original poster's query - outta be sending you a message, Carl! 72, Dood.Jim R. K9JWV From: k...@jeremy.qozzy.com To: w...@w8ji.com; topband@contesting.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 20:35:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Topband: TX relays Tom still hasnt answered why there is only a $10 price difference between the RCS-4 and the -8V yet users of the -8V are getting raped for replacement relays. I don't know why any public forum allows you to post the vitriol nonsense you post. Do you ever do anything in life besides insulting others or picking fights? Typical Tom, accuses others of doing what he does when backed into a corner. Others have said the same on here and elsewhere and it is so very obvious. Im not insulting any person nor can asking for some straight answers be considered picking a fight by any stretch of imagination. Come back when you can actually give an honest and complete answerfor once...and stop trying to deflect the subjects. The Topband members would benefit. Carl KM1H _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
We used to use VSB-12STB from Fujitsu (but not available anymore) These relays are also used in devices from some (large) vendors. As they are not available anymore we changed to the Fujitsu FTR-K1CK012W (same ratings). € 1,70 Euro (just over 2 dollar each) at Conrad. https://www.conrad.nl/nl/voedingsrelais-ftr-k1-fujitsu-ftr-k1ck012w-12-vdc-1-x-omschakelcontact-504384.html . Also at Mouser. http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fujitsu/FTR-K1CK012W/?qs=MnnQ62GSWuGT8SsT9Q9STg%3D%3D 73'Thomas PA1M 2014-10-09 5:04 GMT+02:00 Richard (Rick) Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com: On 10/8/2014 7:25 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: I have had good luck with the Omron MJN series, available from Mouser. They are rated at 20A, These are also available here: http://www.arraysolutions.com/Products/rf_relays.htm#top%20of%20page I DON'T work for this vendor. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
This relay looks exactly what I was looking for to remote-switch my 160m inverted-L to other bands, because it will withstand a lot of voltage. From the PDF: High insulation Insulation distance (between coil and contacts): 10mm min. Dielectric strength: 5KV Surge strength: 10KV 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 2:23 AM, Thomas PA1M t.b.ti...@gmail.com wrote: Fujitsu FTR-K1CK012W _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Hi Tim This are the same relay used in the DXE TFS4 4SQ systems? 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Tim Duffy Enviado el: jueves, 09 de octubre de 2014 12:27 a.m. Para: 'Milt -- N5IA'; topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: TX relays Hello Milt: I have used these relays in my TX arrays for almost 30 years. No failures so far. http://www.dxengineering.com/search/product-line/comtek-four-square-hybrid-r eplacement-relays?tw=relaysw=COMTEK%20Four-Square%20Hybrid%20Replacement%20 Relays Yes, I work at DX Engineering - and yes I stand behind (and use this stuff at K3LR) what we sell. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Milt -- N5IA Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 9:39 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: TX relays What make and model of DPDT relays are you using in your TX arrays? What are your sources? I am looking for some 12 VDC units that are capable of handling full legal limit power to install in a controller for a multi-element directive array. Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. 73 de Milt, N5IA - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8351 - Release Date: 10/08/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- Este mensaje no contiene virus ni malware porque la protección de avast! Antivirus está activa. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Hello Jorge, No. Here is the relay in the DXE TFS4. This relay another good choice for TX array building. http://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-rly-hp 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Jorge Diez - CX6VM [mailto:cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 7:37 AM To: k...@k3lr.com; topband@contesting.com Subject: RE: Topband: TX relays Hi Tim This are the same relay used in the DXE TFS4 4SQ systems? 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Milt -- N5IA Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 9:39 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: TX relays What make and model of DPDT relays are you using in your TX arrays? What are your sources? I am looking for some 12 VDC units that are capable of handling full legal limit power to install in a controller for a multi-element directive array. Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. 73 de Milt, N5IA - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8351 - Release Date: 10/08/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- Este mensaje no contiene virus ni malware porque la protección de avast! Antivirus está activa. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Mike, I would be concerned about using these small relays for non-resonant antenna switching where the impedance at the switch point may be wildly away from 50 ohms. This is the relay I use to switch tuning networks at non-50-ohm points: http://www.deltrol-controls.com/products/relays/power-relays/900 Deltrol is the brand you get if you order from McMaster-Carr but all the big relay manufacturers sell these open frame relays. I also bend the relay contacts for wider spacing as recommended by N6RK in QST (page 66, May 2009 QST Hints and Kinks, Increasing Relay Voltage Handling). Open contact gap of 0.5 inches is readily achievable. Tim N3QE On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: This relay looks exactly what I was looking for to remote-switch my 160m inverted-L to other bands, because it will withstand a lot of voltage. From the PDF: High insulation Insulation distance (between coil and contacts): 10mm min. Dielectric strength: 5KV Surge strength: 10KV 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 2:23 AM, Thomas PA1M t.b.ti...@gmail.com wrote: Fujitsu FTR-K1CK012W _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Because there are many things that go into relay selection that do not show on a data sheet, I always dissect and test relays. I have found 30 amp power relays that overheat at 5 amps at 28 MHz, and relays that have high contact voltage ratings that make the pole inside the coil hot with full RF. They wind up with 20-30 pF capacitance from armature to coil. Another issue is resistance and reliability at near zero contact voltage when receiving. This is probably the single biggest relay issue in our applications. A small bifurcated contact relay is better for receive reliability, and a high current hot switch design is by far the worse for receive reliability. One particularly troublesome high power area for current are the relay internal leads, and the contact support bar materials. The things that make the wires and contact bars last a long time in repeated cycles create very high radio frequency resistances. This is why some large 30 amp power relays will discolor contacts or melt insulation at several amps on higher frequencies. The same thing applies to contacts. Contact materials and platings that optimize hot switching create RF resistance and low level signal connection issues. A gold flash on a soft contact, for example, is excellent for receive but will instantly deteriorate if hot switched at more than a few hundred milliamperes or with an inductive load. It might handle 20 amps of closed contact RF current, but only be rated for a few amps of hot switching current. In contrast, a silver cadmium oxide contact can take tons of hot switch voltage and current, but is lousy for relay receive pass through. Contact support bars, and the wires used in some relays, can also be very problematic. This is because the materials and any weave in wires is designed for flexibility. Alloys and construction that improves mechanical cycle life greatly reduces RF performance. Mike, I would be concerned about using these small relays for non-resonant antenna switching where the impedance at the switch point may be wildly away from 50 ohms. This is the relay I use to switch tuning networks at non-50-ohm points: http://www.deltrol-controls.com/products/relays/power-relays/900 Deltrol is the brand you get if you order from McMaster-Carr but all the big relay manufacturers sell these open frame relays. I also bend the relay contacts for wider spacing as recommended by N6RK in QST (page 66, May 2009 QST Hints and Kinks, Increasing Relay Voltage Handling). Open contact gap of 0.5 inches is readily achievable. Tim N3QE On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: This relay looks exactly what I was looking for to remote-switch my 160m inverted-L to other bands, because it will withstand a lot of voltage. From the PDF: High insulation Insulation distance (between coil and contacts): 10mm min. Dielectric strength: 5KV Surge strength: 10KV 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 2:23 AM, Thomas PA1M t.b.ti...@gmail.com wrote: Fujitsu FTR-K1CK012W _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4037/8351 - Release Date: 10/08/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
So WHAT IS the manufacturers part number of an adequate relay? Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com To: Tim Shoppa tsho...@gmail.com; Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com Cc: topband topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:46 AM Subject: Re: Topband: TX relays Because there are many things that go into relay selection that do not show on a data sheet, I always dissect and test relays. I have found 30 amp power relays that overheat at 5 amps at 28 MHz, and relays that have high contact voltage ratings that make the pole inside the coil hot with full RF. They wind up with 20-30 pF capacitance from armature to coil. Another issue is resistance and reliability at near zero contact voltage when receiving. This is probably the single biggest relay issue in our applications. A small bifurcated contact relay is better for receive reliability, and a high current hot switch design is by far the worse for receive reliability. One particularly troublesome high power area for current are the relay internal leads, and the contact support bar materials. The things that make the wires and contact bars last a long time in repeated cycles create very high radio frequency resistances. This is why some large 30 amp power relays will discolor contacts or melt insulation at several amps on higher frequencies. The same thing applies to contacts. Contact materials and platings that optimize hot switching create RF resistance and low level signal connection issues. A gold flash on a soft contact, for example, is excellent for receive but will instantly deteriorate if hot switched at more than a few hundred milliamperes or with an inductive load. It might handle 20 amps of closed contact RF current, but only be rated for a few amps of hot switching current. In contrast, a silver cadmium oxide contact can take tons of hot switch voltage and current, but is lousy for relay receive pass through. Contact support bars, and the wires used in some relays, can also be very problematic. This is because the materials and any weave in wires is designed for flexibility. Alloys and construction that improves mechanical cycle life greatly reduces RF performance. Mike, I would be concerned about using these small relays for non-resonant antenna switching where the impedance at the switch point may be wildly away from 50 ohms. This is the relay I use to switch tuning networks at non-50-ohm points: http://www.deltrol-controls.com/products/relays/power-relays/900 Deltrol is the brand you get if you order from McMaster-Carr but all the big relay manufacturers sell these open frame relays. I also bend the relay contacts for wider spacing as recommended by N6RK in QST (page 66, May 2009 QST Hints and Kinks, Increasing Relay Voltage Handling). Open contact gap of 0.5 inches is readily achievable. Tim N3QE On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: This relay looks exactly what I was looking for to remote-switch my 160m inverted-L to other bands, because it will withstand a lot of voltage. From the PDF: High insulation Insulation distance (between coil and contacts): 10mm min. Dielectric strength: 5KV Surge strength: 10KV 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 2:23 AM, Thomas PA1M t.b.ti...@gmail.com wrote: Fujitsu FTR-K1CK012W _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4037/8351 - Release Date: 10/08/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8354 - Release Date: 10/09/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
So what is the actual manufacturers catalog numberor is that just another DXE secret? Since not everyone has DXE products an easy to source item would be beneficial to the ham community. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: Tim Duffy k...@k3lr.com To: 'Jorge Diez - CX6VM' cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com; topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 8:47 AM Subject: Re: Topband: TX relays Hello Jorge, No. Here is the relay in the DXE TFS4. This relay another good choice for TX array building. http://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-rly-hp 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Jorge Diez - CX6VM [mailto:cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 7:37 AM To: k...@k3lr.com; topband@contesting.com Subject: RE: Topband: TX relays Hi Tim This are the same relay used in the DXE TFS4 4SQ systems? 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Milt -- N5IA Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 9:39 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: TX relays What make and model of DPDT relays are you using in your TX arrays? What are your sources? I am looking for some 12 VDC units that are capable of handling full legal limit power to install in a controller for a multi-element directive array. Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. 73 de Milt, N5IA - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8351 - Release Date: 10/08/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- Este mensaje no contiene virus ni malware porque la protección de avast! Antivirus está activa. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8354 - Release Date: 10/09/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Thanks for the advice. I've already calculated the voltage at the feedpoint of my 160m inverted-L on 80m at 1500w (using EZNEC), and it's only a little over 3 kV. I just popped the cover off a little Omron PCB-mounting relay that I forgot I had, rated at 10 kV. The spacing between the SPDT contacts and the coil actually looks greater than that open-frame relay. I was thinking of seriesing the contacts on two of these relays, if necessary. I should take a photo and get the Omron P/N later for this thread. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 7:57 AM, Tim Shoppa tsho...@gmail.com wrote: Mike, I would be concerned about using these small relays for non-resonant antenna switching where the impedance at the switch point may be wildly away from 50 ohms. This is the relay I use to switch tuning networks at non-50-ohm points: http://www.deltrol-controls.com/products/relays/power-relays/900 Deltrol is the brand you get if you order from McMaster-Carr but all the big relay manufacturers sell these open frame relays. I also bend the relay contacts for wider spacing as recommended by N6RK in QST (page 66, May 2009 QST Hints and Kinks, Increasing Relay Voltage Handling). Open contact gap of 0.5 inches is readily achievable. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: I just popped the cover off a little Omron PCB-mounting relay that I forgot I had, rated at 10 kV. 10 kV between contacts, or 10 kV between a contact and the coil? 73, Sinisa YT1NT, VE3EA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
I just popped the cover off a little Omron PCB-mounting relay that I forgot I had, rated at 10 kV. The spacing between the SPDT contacts and the coil actually looks greater than that open-frame relay. I was thinking of seriesing the contacts on two of these relays, if necessary. If you series the contacts the voltages across open contacts divides by the capacitances between the contacts and everything around the contacts. It is like connecting a bunch of unequal value capacitors in series without using any equalizing components to force equal voltage division. I know we can find claims in a few articles of how well that works. In the actual world we live in, it does not actually work very well at RF without compensation to equalize voltages. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
On Thu,10/9/2014 6:46 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: Because there are many things that go into relay selection that do not show on a data sheet, I always dissect and test relays. Thanks for an excellent exposition of the issues. Now how about the other half of the question -- part numbers for relays that meet the need? This reflector (and the spirit of ham radio) is about SHARING information. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
There is some data on this page: http://www.w0qe.com/Technical_Topics/small_signal_relays_at_rf.html I have used the RTD140xx series Schrack/Tyco for years in primarily RTTY contesting duty at the KW power level - all without fail. But I have not conducted BDV testing on those relays. 73/jeff/ac0c www.ac0c.com alpha-charlie-zero-charlie -Original Message- From: Jim Brown Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:38 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: TX relays On Thu,10/9/2014 6:46 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: Because there are many things that go into relay selection that do not show on a data sheet, I always dissect and test relays. Thanks for an excellent exposition of the issues. Now how about the other half of the question -- part numbers for relays that meet the need? This reflector (and the spirit of ham radio) is about SHARING information. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Between contact and coil. I just took 2 photos: http://www.w0btu.com/files/misc/Omron_relay_G2R-1-E-T130/ On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 12:20 PM, shristov shris...@ptt.rs wrote: Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: I just popped the cover off a little Omron PCB-mounting relay that I forgot I had, rated at 10 kV. 10 kV between contacts, or 10 kV between a contact and the coil? 73, Sinisa YT1NT, VE3EA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
OK Carl and Jim, I know you want one-part-number-fits-all answers, but I do not think that is possible. There are tens of thousands of relays and dozens of applications. I am afraid telling people what to do in no uncertain terms by specifying a part number often winds up being wrong over time as things change. For example a few years ago a very good Struthers-Dunn high power relay moved to China. The internal wire that used to handle several amperes on ten meters now heats and melts at half that current on upper HF. The root of this problem is the RF specs we are concerned with as amateurs have little or no bearing on the 60Hz or dc relay specs, so they didn't change a thing for relay operation in the published low frequency or dc specs, but rendered it useless at radio frequencies. When a manufacturing process changes, an off-the-shelf relay that had good RF performance can suddenly radically change. This is why manufacturers that actually use relays in large quantity, while some of the more grumpy among us might think are unfairly making money through sinister secrecy, are usually better sources. They do the consistency checking for us. Some of the relays are custom. For example, the RCS8V uses a custom tooled relay that has a double make double break contact, or form X contact. It isn't under a part number at Mouser. 73 Tom On Thu,10/9/2014 6:46 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: Because there are many things that go into relay selection that do not show on a data sheet, I always dissect and test relays. Thanks for an excellent exposition of the issues. Now how about the other half of the question -- part numbers for relays that meet the need? This reflector (and the spirit of ham radio) is about SHARING information. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8354 - Release Date: 10/09/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Ahhh yes. Thanks. I didn't think of that. :-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote: ... I was thinking of seriesing the contacts on two of these relays, if necessary. If you series the contacts the voltages across open contacts divides by the capacitances between the contacts and everything around the contacts. It is like connecting a bunch of unequal value capacitors in series without using any equalizing components to force equal voltage division. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
A potential problem with that relay is that it is not sealed. Moisture could get in, condense, and freeze. And if ice forms in the wrong place, the relay might not operate. I've had that happen before, and during a 160 contest. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: Between contact and coil. I just took 2 photos: http://www.w0btu.com/files/misc/Omron_relay_G2R-1-E-T130/ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
On Thu,10/9/2014 11:18 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: I know you want one-part-number-fits-all answers, but I do not think that is possible. That's your assumption, but certainly not mine. What I think most of us would appreciate are known good products for specific (or define ranges of) applications. Your observations about quality decline with outsourcing is certainly appreciated. Indeed, that is part of the experience we ought to be sharing. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
On Thu,10/9/2014 11:18 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: I know you want one-part-number-fits-all answers, but I do not think that is possible. That's your assumption, but certainly not mine. What I think most of us would appreciate are known good products for specific (or define ranges of) applications. Your observations about quality decline with outsourcing is certainly appreciated. Indeed, that is part of the experience we ought to be sharing. 73, Jim K9YC _ Nor mine either. When Tom doesnt want to divulge anything interesting that threatens his secrecy he resorts to insults and a lot of dancing around the subject. Is the RCS-8V any better than the RCS 4, 10 and 12 which all use the rugged DPDT relay used in the Senior Ameritron amps? Board layout has improved for increased isolation and the relays are easily replace if needed. The RCS-8V uses a so called custom relay which costs $33.80 each for replacement while the RCS-4 relay is $6.64 from Ameritron. OTOH there is only a $10 difference between both end products. For HF to 6M the RCS-4 has 3 relays and rated at 2500W continuous average power. The RCS-8V has 5 relays and is supposedly good for 5KW to 30 mHz but only 1 KW at 150 mHz. A full set of replacement relays cost as much as the complete product! Does anybody smell a scam here? Im not grumpy Tom, just frustrated with getting a straight answer out of you instead of hiding behind what ever nonsense verbiage you like to throw out such as: For example, the RCS8V uses a custom tooled relay that has a double make double break contact, or form X contact. It isn't under a part number at Mouser Translation: it is configured as a transfer relay ( the form X contact (it should read configuration)) with each leg in parallel due to a shorting bar between them explained as a long winded elaboration double make double break contact or form X contact . It isn't under a part number at Mouser Maybe not but a regular DPDT relay could be modified at home to be a credible performer thru 6M. There is nothing earth shattering about a transfer relay Tom, they have been around possibly since relays were invented. I use an ancient 4 port Dow Key on my 1500W 2M amp. A Transco transfer relay is used on the 222 mHz 1500W amp and another on the 400W for 432. Most HF amps use a different form of transfer relay which is simply a standard DPDT wired for the required transfer function. No magic there either. Bifurcated contact simply means twin contact, aka parallel. Here is an excellent tutorial on relay terminology http://www.relaymaster.com/Glossary.aspx BTW, some states have passed laws against companies that refuse to release service information to independent shops. Its time you and DXE as well as a few others are included if it doesnt become voluntary. Carl KM1H _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
- Original Message - From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 3:37 PM Subject: Re: Topband: TX relays On Thu,10/9/2014 11:18 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: I know you want one-part-number-fits-all answers, but I do not think that is possible. That's your assumption, but certainly not mine. What I think most of us would appreciate are known good products for specific (or define ranges of) applications. Your observations about quality decline with outsourcing is certainly appreciated. Indeed, that is part of the experience we ought to be sharing. 73, Jim K9YC On Thu,10/9/2014 11:18 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: I know you want one-part-number-fits-all answers, but I do not think that is possible. That's your assumption, but certainly not mine. What I think most of us would appreciate are known good products for specific (or define ranges of) applications. Your observations about quality decline with outsourcing is certainly appreciated. Indeed, that is part of the experience we ought to be sharing. 73, Jim K9YC _ Nor mine either. When Tom doesnt want to divulge anything interesting he resorts to insults and a lot of dancing around the subject. Is the RCS-8V any better than the RCS 4, 10 and 12 which all use the rugged DPDT relay used in the Senior Ameritron amps. Board layout has improved for increased isolation and the relays are easily replace if needed. The RCS-8V uses a so called custom relay which costs $33.80 each for replacement while the RCS-4 relay is $6.64. OTOH there is only a $10 difference between both end products. For HF to 6M the RCS-4 has 3 relays and rated at 2500W continuous average power. The RCS-8V has 5 relays and is supposedly good for 5KW to 30 mHz but only 1 KW at 150 mHz. A full set of replacement relays cost as much as the complete product! Does anybody smell a scam here? Im not grumpy Tom, just frustrated with getting a straight answer out of you instead of hiding behind what ever nonsense verbiage you like to throw out such as: For example, the RCS8V uses a custom tooled relay that has a double make double break contact, or form X contact. It isn't under a part number at Mouser Translation: it is configured as a transfer relay ( the form X contact (it should read configuration)) with each leg in parallel due to a shorting bar between them explained as a long winded elaboration double make double break contact or form X contact . It isn't under a part number at Mouser. There is nothing earth shattering about a transfer relay Tom, they have been around possibly since relays were invented. I use an ancient 4 port Dow Key on my 1500W 2M amp. A Transco transfer relay is used on the 222 mHz 1500W amp and another on the 400W for 432. I use a transfer switch on my house generator. Most HF amps use a different form of transfer relay which is simply a standard DPDT wired for the transfer function. No magic there either. The RCS-8V relay can be duplicated at home from a standard DPDT with decent performance to 6M Bifurcated contact simply means twin contact, aka parallel. Here is an excellent tutorial on relay terminology http://www.relaymaster.com/Glossary.aspx BTW, some states have passed laws against companies that refuse to release service information to independent shops. Its time you and DXE as well as a few others are included if it doesnt become voluntary. Carl KM1H _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Carl, et al, You have valid points. I have resorted, for example to making my own high power handling T/R relays using Kilovac, Jennings, and other brands of vacuum relays I can find, with my mill and lathe. This is a part of ham radio that I thoroughly enjoy !! (I do use the N-Style female connectors that use the SMA footprint at the bottom. Got a bunch at Orlando.) They take power just fine. DXE has some very useful items One would think DXE would cut hams some slack but they are totally out of my price range anyway. My 2 cents... 73 Hardy N7RT - Original Message - From: Carl k...@jeremy.qozzy.com To: j...@audiosystemsgroup.com; topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 6:36 PM Subject: Re: Topband: TX relays On Thu,10/9/2014 11:18 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: I know you want one-part-number-fits-all answers, but I do not think that is possible. That's your assumption, but certainly not mine. What I think most of us would appreciate are known good products for specific (or define ranges of) applications. Your observations about quality decline with outsourcing is certainly appreciated. Indeed, that is part of the experience we ought to be sharing. 73, Jim K9YC _ Nor mine either. When Tom doesnt want to divulge anything interesting that threatens his secrecy he resorts to insults and a lot of dancing around the subject. Is the RCS-8V any better than the RCS 4, 10 and 12 which all use the rugged DPDT relay used in the Senior Ameritron amps? Board layout has improved for increased isolation and the relays are easily replace if needed. The RCS-8V uses a so called custom relay which costs $33.80 each for replacement while the RCS-4 relay is $6.64 from Ameritron. OTOH there is only a $10 difference between both end products. For HF to 6M the RCS-4 has 3 relays and rated at 2500W continuous average power. The RCS-8V has 5 relays and is supposedly good for 5KW to 30 mHz but only 1 KW at 150 mHz. A full set of replacement relays cost as much as the complete product! Does anybody smell a scam here? Im not grumpy Tom, just frustrated with getting a straight answer out of you instead of hiding behind what ever nonsense verbiage you like to throw out such as: For example, the RCS8V uses a custom tooled relay that has a double make double break contact, or form X contact. It isn't under a part number at Mouser Translation: it is configured as a transfer relay ( the form X contact (it should read configuration)) with each leg in parallel due to a shorting bar between them explained as a long winded elaboration double make double break contact or form X contact . It isn't under a part number at Mouser Maybe not but a regular DPDT relay could be modified at home to be a credible performer thru 6M. There is nothing earth shattering about a transfer relay Tom, they have been around possibly since relays were invented. I use an ancient 4 port Dow Key on my 1500W 2M amp. A Transco transfer relay is used on the 222 mHz 1500W amp and another on the 400W for 432. Most HF amps use a different form of transfer relay which is simply a standard DPDT wired for the required transfer function. No magic there either. Bifurcated contact simply means twin contact, aka parallel. Here is an excellent tutorial on relay terminology http://www.relaymaster.com/Glossary.aspx BTW, some states have passed laws against companies that refuse to release service information to independent shops. Its time you and DXE as well as a few others are included if it doesnt become voluntary. Carl KM1H _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Between contact and coil. I just took 2 photos: http://www.w0btu.com/files/misc/Omron_relay_G2R-1-E-T130/ This is where dissection helps. We can see, from the pictures, that relay is likely a good relay. 1.) It has wide smooth current paths. It does not have wire leads 2.) It has good spacing and insulation from contacts to the coil and metal outside the contacts 3.) It appears to be, although I am not certain, a gold flash. Gold (real gold flash) is ideal for the receiving end as long as it is not hot switched or arced. Silver is not. Some silver alloys are worse still, and materials that appear in relays designed to be hot switched at high current are terrible in our applications (unless we only transmit). When people burnish contacts, they rub the gold off. This is why a WD40 wetted hard paper is about the most abrasive thing that should ever be used as a cleaning tool. There is a problem with relays enclosed in plastic, like the picture. The plastic can leech contaminants that spoil the connection at low currents. Brand new relays exhibit this issue. Usually it clears and eventually stays OK once some very small current is passed through the contacts. This is a frustrating problem for new equipment, because the relay can be OK in testing until it sits a while. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: TX relays
What make and model of DPDT relays are you using in your TX arrays? What are your sources? I am looking for some 12 VDC units that are capable of handling full legal limit power to install in a controller for a multi-element directive array. Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. 73 de Milt, N5IA - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8351 - Release Date: 10/08/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
On 10/8/2014 6:39 PM, Milt -- N5IA wrote: What make and model of DPDT relays are you using in your TX arrays? 73 de Milt, N5IA I have had good luck with the Omron MJN series, available from Mouser. They are rated at 20A, 600VAC, and those ratings are for hot switching, which you are obviously not going to do. I use them to switch in tuning capacitors in series with my 80 meter inverted vee cloud warmer to tune it around the band. The relays see a lot of voltage in this application especially at the high end of the band. I recently bought a used commercial 4-square phasing box and it appears to also use these relays. GMTA as they say... Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Hello Milt: I have used these relays in my TX arrays for almost 30 years. No failures so far. http://www.dxengineering.com/search/product-line/comtek-four-square-hybrid-r eplacement-relays?tw=relaysw=COMTEK%20Four-Square%20Hybrid%20Replacement%20 Relays Yes, I work at DX Engineering - and yes I stand behind (and use this stuff at K3LR) what we sell. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Milt -- N5IA Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 9:39 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: TX relays What make and model of DPDT relays are you using in your TX arrays? What are your sources? I am looking for some 12 VDC units that are capable of handling full legal limit power to install in a controller for a multi-element directive array. Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. 73 de Milt, N5IA - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8351 - Release Date: 10/08/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
Array Solutions has these: http://www.arraysolutions.com/Products/rf_relays.htm#top of page de NA4M On Oct 9, 2014, at 1:39 AM, Milt -- N5IA n...@zia-connection.com wrote: What make and model of DPDT relays are you using in your TX arrays? What are your sources? I am looking for some 12 VDC units that are capable of handling full legal limit power to install in a controller for a multi-element directive array. Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. 73 de Milt, N5IA -. .- ….- -- Phil Duff na4m[at]suddenlink.net _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TX relays
On 10/8/2014 7:25 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: I have had good luck with the Omron MJN series, available from Mouser. They are rated at 20A, These are also available here: http://www.arraysolutions.com/Products/rf_relays.htm#top%20of%20page I DON'T work for this vendor. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
