Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Then it's settle, please go here for further systemd debate: https://trisquel.info/es/forum/could-systemd-be-inconvenient-portability
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Someone copy the posts regarding Systemd to another thread! This ought to be fun, grab your popcorns!
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Magic Banana, no reason to resort to this level of communication. I did not mock you, nor make fun of you... Merely stating, facts about systemd, how that led you to conspiracy theories and big foot is beyond me. Regarding Linus, he said that he does not have have a problem with systemd as an init systemd. He does have a problem with binary logging, systemd hiding many of its processes, and the monolithic nature of the software suite, which is no longer just concerned about being a modern init system He has also mentioned in interviews and workshops, that he does not care for or support any one distro. His only concern is the kernel and he uses Fedora because it is what he always used, and he does not like to change or constantly maintain systems etc... He hardly ever uses GUI anyway, and works mainly from TTY and CLI. So the distro. does not really matter much to him. Personally, I and many other long time Unix and GNU/Linux users think that systemd was rushed, has grown very large in a short period of time. The process should have been much slower, let some of the bugs work themselves out, and it should have remained a modern init system, of which many people have no complaint. But...like another person said, the OP was asking about MATE DE so...perhaps this will need to become a separate post/discussion. I did not mean to offend you! :)
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
not an evil one like Mickey who refuses to enter the public domain U mad bro? Who cares if Mickey Mouse is public domain or not?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
You should! Why? See e.g. http://thepublicdomain.org
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
onpon...not true, they are completely against it. What they are doing is making their version which would be limited to an init system and not the entire monolithic software suite that is the ever growing mess of systemd. BSD will never go for systemd as it violates POSIX, which the BSD's (and prior to systemd GNU/Linux did as well), adhere to. You might enjoy these threads whether you or for or against it: https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-from-scratch-13/what-is-so-bad-with-systemd-4175500300/ https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/slackware-and-systemd-885228/#post4380112 https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/systemd-is-obsolete.49372/ https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/how-is-freebsd-coping-with-a-systemd-future.46667/ http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page http://systemd-free.org/index.php Interesting to note that you can make Parabola systemd free as well by following the tips from the above link. Debate is good, and debate is the one thing RedHat and Pottering did not allow. But then again this is what happens when people right out of college think they know better than people with 30+ years of Unix/GNU/Linux experience.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Oh boy, this conversation is so interesting. I would love to join the systemd debate, but since this isn't related with MATE I shouldn't on this thread. Why not to create a new thread about systemd? of course Trisquel 8 will use it anyway because it's free software and because of upstream. But a little debate won't do any harm. Just please start the thread with a neutral statement, I hate debates that haven't started and already have a pro/against attitude.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
The BSD guys aren't against systemd. Many of them oppose copyleft, but the main reason they don't use systemd is because they can't. systemd uses Linux-specific features, so it won't work with the BSD kernel. In fact, the OpenBSD project is working to come up with kernel-agnostic replacements for certain systemd programs that they want to include in OpenBSD (e.g. initd. Unfortunately, they are also trying to make these replacements available under a pushover license, so I suppose they're reverse-engineering the programs rather than simply going in and replacing any Linux-specific stuff with generic stuff, which would be easier; and this also means that their effort unfortunately benefits proprietary software developers. In any case, this is not antisystemd behavior. If OpenBSD wanted the latest GNOME without systemd, for example, it would be perfectly possible to remove the dependency on systemd from GNOME (and add back in support for that obsolete program logind replaced).
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Not because it refuses to enter the public domain, but because of the Mickey Mouse Protection Act: After the United States' accession to the Berne convention, a number of copyright owners successfully lobbied the U.S. Congress for another extension of the term of copyright, to provide for the same term of protection that exists in Europe.[1] I agree with Who cares if Mickey Mouse is public domain or not. After all is just a tool for brainwash. But I do care when some people with money can manipulate the government and it's law. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Oh Magic Banana...The research is all on the internet from people working on the projects. Fact, Linus has blocked Kay from submitting any/all code for the kernel until further notice. Fact, soon systemd will default to gummbiboot as the loader, it has already merged with it. When Lennart and Kay were caught trying to make it require gummi, they changed it to default but not required. Fact, Pottering has stated on his own blog and various mailing lists that he detests Linus and the entire kernel team and has mentioned that systemd could use its own RedHat kernel. Fact, Pottering has stated that he does not care if systemd breaks other distros, or breaks other desktop environments, he only cares that it works with Gnome and the programs they view as being key for further development. Gentoo, Slackware and Crux are continuing to pursue non-systemd development, for how long only time will tell. Manjaro is also offering Gentoo's OpenRC with mixed results. the BSD's are even helping them, informally, as they are of course antisystemd, since any programs hardwired to systemd will break or not be included in the BSD repos/ports. So yes, their end goal as stated by Pottering is to have a complete CoreOS, that includes everything from the kernel (Linus' or not) up to the DE (Gnome).
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
You can use a dock and have a pretty Windows-style desktop
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Personally I find it easier to customise LXDE, and I find KDE TDE more customiseable.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
The panel+nautilus, at the very least, certainly formed a shell though (which way why Nautilus couldn't be replaced and why Caja can't be replaced in MATE).
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
I used many DEs but nothing comes close to the XFCE environment!!! Fast, easy to use and customize, lightweight, beautiful. There is no other DE but Xfce! :)
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
LXTerminal try the terminator sudo apt-get install terminator
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Still find gnome fallback surprisingly good and easy to customize. It is now my desktop of choice. I like the fact that it is compatible with unity's indicator applications.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
I still prefer the panels because that's what I have always used for the past several years. That and I don't want something too heavy because it will drain the battery faster. Something simple like the screenshot below is sufficient.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Thanks for looking that up for us Magic. By the time Ubuntu 16.04 comes out, MATE will hopefully be 1.12 and above and be a viable option for Trisquel.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
GNOME Flashback is officially supported. I get the impression that there are only one or two active developers, but it's not like it's just rotting in a forgotten repository.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Magic Banana, you can say that again. According to Pottering and Kay Sievers (systemd developers), their end game is to have systemd be a complete OS. Even Linus had to block all code contributions from Kay because they were trying to hardwire the kernel to require systemd. You can search the net for all of this. Latest news, is they are working on systemd also becoming a bootloader (Gummiboot), to make the system more secure of course.. Again, search it.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
I'm pretty sure LXDE's default text editor is Leafpad.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Oh, well I don't think GNOME Panel was ever called a shell. It's a lot more simplistic and flexible than that.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Not in 3, but if you want GNOME 2's shell but without GNOME Terminal and without Nautilus (or maybe only Nautilus?), good luck!
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
I used to go back and forth between GNOME Shell, KDE, and XFCE back when I had Debian (this was before I discovered Trisquel), and then after installing Trisquel, I almost entirely used just GNOME Flashback until I found out how to install Cinnamon on Trisquel. Just a few days ago, I came up with the idea of trying out XFCE, however I ended up installing MATE and customizing it. Even though the GNOME Shell was an interesting change, I've found that a Windows-style desktop works best. (Speaking of Windows, I've gone 2 years without using Microsoft Windows on my computer, and I don't even miss those days of half-broken software that's prone to malware, application lock ups, and WAT problems with Microsoft making sure I've paid my taxes.)
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
They were tied into the shell before? That's news to me. If anything, many GNOME components were starting to show their age in GNOME 3.4, being so similar to their GNOME 2 counterparts.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
This is first I've heard of compiz not working well with orca Me too. Do you know what kind of issues exists between Compiz and Orca?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
This is first I've heard of compiz not working well with orca; I'll ask. Does either metacity or marco do screen magnification? Whatever we decide to do for Trisquel's window manager in version 8, we should make sure that accessibility feature works.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
I don't think the init system effects Mate.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Perhaps there's been some improvement. Last time I tried orca in LXDE, the panels, menus, desktop, and notification area were not accessible, and the file manager was only accessible in list mode. I found, however, that mousepad (the default text editor) is accessible. The Mozilla programs and libreoffice are accessible, independent of desktop.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Yes, Ruben said that Orca couldn't read the name of the window so if someone cannot see well, he/she would not know in which window/container he/she will be in, and as you know, accessibility is one of the key points of Trisquel so he didn't pick compiz as default. Regarding what Dave_hunt asked: I don't know about a magnifying effect on metacity, only the option to make the text larger. Sorry.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
It's actually the other way around for me: I, on Parabola, LOVE GNOME Shell, but I use PCManFM instead iof Nautilus, LXTerminal instead of GNOME Terminal (or sometimes GNOME Terminal 2 instead which is available in the AUR). Well, I guess we can be thankful nautilus, the terminal, etc aren't as tied to the shell as they used to be! I do use Epiphany and Totem, though.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
I'm currently using Cinnamon on Trisquel via an added repository. It's a bit heavy on the GPU, however I consider it better than the Trisquel Default Session, GNOME Flashback, which just doesn't work as I would expect it to. I'm currently considering the possibility of using XFCE, which shouldn't be as heavy on the GPU. In any case, I would suggest using anything but the default session. Maybe I'll also give the GTK3 version of MATE a try. However, I'm almost certainly going to continue using certain GNOME Applications such as the System Monitor, Terminal, File Manager, etc. Those applications work very well, it's the GNOME Shell that's not very convenient, and then also GNOME Flashback is sort-of broken.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
I don't really like to use docks, I prefer a Windows-style desktop environment.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Oh, I forgot: With LXDE and XFCE, user is unaware of what window would have focus, when she releases the 'alt+tab' (window switching) keys; Orca doesn't speak this. In orca releases before 3.12, the same information was missing when Mate was the desktop. In the Mate case, it was a matter of sym-linking the orca scripts for metacity and marco. Now, it' works pretty well.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
i also reccomend trying cairo dock http://glx-dock.org/ you can get it from the trisquel repo's
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
No, you can use Compiz with the default Trisquel Desktop, the reason why Rubén changed to metacity is because compiz does not work well with Orca. You can create your own Trisquel with compiz session. When I have time I will create a script that will do so.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Honestly, I think the question of interest is why it was enabled by default in Trisquel 6. That wasn't the case in Trisquel 5.5 (the first version of Trisquel I used), and I'd wager to guess that wasn't the case in any of the earlier versions either. So Trisquel 7 is just continuing the previous status quo. One guess I have is that using Compiz by default (and falling back to Metacity, because remember, Compiz requires hardware acceleration) was an experiment, and deemed a failure because of problems it caused, or something along those lines. Compiz, after all, is quite an advanced window manager, so if you're going to use it, you should probably be using it on purpose.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
now I test MATE +1 to MATE
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
It's still available, just not used by default (as was the case for most distros that used GNOME 2).
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Honestly, I think the question of interest is why it was enabled by default in Trisquel 6. I don't know. It was? I remember that was installed by default, but not that was enabled by default too. If I remember correctly, Trisquel 4 also had Compiz installed by default. One guess I have is that using Compiz by default (and falling back to Metacity, because remember, Compiz requires hardware acceleration) Using Compiz by default and falling back on something else if fails would be a bad idea anyway.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Version 4 was my favorite as well. Excellent theme, icons, and an overall level of polish. I loved the level of opacity on the bottom panel and the menu. It was so pretty that I instantly installed it on my brother's laptop which thankfully worked out of the box (video, audio, wireless) and he could surf the web, listen to music, and write documents for school in LibreOffice with no hassle. I'm a very visual person and I can honestly say that the Gnome 2 based Trisquels were on par with the non-free ones in look and feel. The magic was lost with Trisquel 6 onwards as we lost most of the visual flair and I couldn't customize my desktop as easily. Now that MATE is supported and ready to shine, its time to seriously consider it default or at least offer it as another ISO alongside the regular and mini versions.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
You're cunfused, then. That's talking about GNOME Shell, which is indeed tied to Mutter. Mutter is different from Metacity, and GNOME Panel should be perfectly usable with Compiz et al.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
MATE is adding GTK3 support as of the 1.10 release: http://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MATE-1.10-Released
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
As long as Trisquel aims to offer a classic desktop that looks good and doesn't require 3d acceleration by default, the options are pretty limited right now. Gnome fallback/classic tries to mimic many Gnome 2 features, but it really is barebones and a chore to customize. Like I said before, MATE is now supported fully upstream and by switching the default DE to it, we get more options. The Gnome 2 versions of Trisquel were some of the best looking out there and we already have stable themes that can be used and improved upon where needed for MATE. The current implementation is hacky and really isn't working to be honest. As for Magic's issue with ConsoleKit, I'm sure it can be resolved in a future MATE release if its important.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
I always wait for the laptop to shut down before closing the lid. After all it is GNU and not windose, this meaning you don't have to wait 3 minutes for the stupid thing to shut down!! :P
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
I thought that was the case since Trisquel 7 didn't include Compiz by default, but seems that was not the case. I'm still wondering why Compiz didn't make it into Trisquel 7 though.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
The Gnome 2 versions of Trisquel were some of the best looking out there You can say that again! Trisquel 4 was my favorite, and we can achieve the same look again with MATE easily, while with Gnome fallback it just keep getting trickier. As for Magic's issue with ConsoleKit, I'm sure it can be resolved in a future MATE release if its important. I hope they come up with a solution that satisfied people who don't like systemd. Then everyone is happy.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
I apologize for the spelling mistakes by the way. I wish I could edit the original post. :-(
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
It's disingenuous to suggest that GNOME has removed a feature it hasn't Sorry for my imprecise use of the language, I'm still learning English. What I wanted say is that we lost a feature because of GNOME putting in the way, not that it was GNOME itself who removed it. Sorry about that. and supposedly (I've only heard it in this thread) it's difficult to use an alternative window manager with GNOME Flashback now I read this in an article about Metacity on Wikipedia some time ago, though it's in Spanish http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacity#Controversia My translation: However, since Gnome 3 it will not use Metacity but Mutter, which does not allow the use of any window manager without rewriting the source code, this has generated even more controversy to the point that the Proyect GNU itself has greatly criticized the project and suggested solutions but apparently have not been heard by the GNOME project. I'd say what's most important is to look at the accessibility problems MATE has, and consider whether the benefits of MATE outweigh those problems. I agree, perhaps @Dave_Hunt can tell us more about those few minor accessibility gaps with MATE.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Yes, there is a version Mintmenu for MATE. It seems to prevent dconf-editor from running correctly when I install the version from Dagda, though (except I'm probably the only one who cares one wee bit about that). Agree with you regarding GNOME Shell.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
solving several longstanding energy management issues. Can you give examples of those energy management issues?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
It's disingenuous to suggest that GNOME has removed a feature it hasn't. What's happened is Metacity never had this feature in the first place (GNOME first got it with GNOME Shell), and supposedly (I've only heard it in this thread) it's difficult to use an alternative window manager with GNOME Flashback now, meaning you can't (easily) get the feature from Compiz anymore. The solution for GNOME Flashback would be to add the feature to Metacity. That's not to say I disagree with the position that MATE is better. Honestly, I don't have a strong opinion either way; for my needs, both are about as disappointing (I much prefer GNOME Shell), though I think MATE does have a variant of mintMenu, which is a neat thing if that's true. I'd say what's most important is to look at the accessibility problems MATE has, and consider whether the benefits of MATE outweigh those problems. After all, one of the major reasons Trisquel uses GNOME is GNOME's great accessibility.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Well, if we want to keep using Metacity we're never getting window tiling - and it's not GNOME's fault. Metacity never had it and Compiz didn't have drag-to-edge tiling until 0.9 anyway. It's got nothing to do with GNOME 3. But yeah, if you want tiling with a stacking window manager that doesn't ask for 3D acceleration, I wouldn't call MATE an unwise option.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
GNOME Shell is the normal GNOME experience. Yeah, but as far as I know Trisquel aim to have a classic and lightweight DE for it's default image. And GNOME Shell needs hardware acceleration to run decently. That's why we use GNOME Flashback, but since it lacks features that MATE have without loosing anything (as far as I know), then we have a reason to make the change. Wouldn't you agree? Perhaps I should've used GNOME Flashback instead of just GNOME in my previous post.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
its nede systemd?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
BTW, can run orca in lxde
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
GNOME Shell allows you to maximize windows on the left or right side of the screen. Of course that's got little to do with what GNOME Flashback is capable of, but GNOME Shell is the normal GNOME experience.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
It's systemd needed? According to Gentoo's Wiki, no. Does MATE rely on a specific service manager or init system? No, MATE has been tested to work with both OpenRC and systemd and might work on other service managers and init systems too (untested, but no known reason for it to break); systemd support was added in release 1.6. Source: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/MATE
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
its run orca??
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
I was thinking about this too, even with the great work of Rúben and the others on the appearance of the distro. We have lost features like window tiling, and we have bugs like bad drawing when scrolling on lists. And, as far as I know, is all Gnome's fault. But then, we have MATE which could make Rúben's life easier since he is not fighting with the DE on how should look like, because MATE already looks and feels just the way we are used to.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Window tiling's gone?? If it is I don't think it's gNOME's fault since it was basically absent in GNOME 2 and is present in GNOME 3.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/MATE#Accessibility
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Had Ubuntu MATE not become official Ubuntu project, though, would MATE still have made it to the repos anyway (since I'm pretty sure it's present upstream at Debian)?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Same. Great idea. MATE for days. I love MATE.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
Well, window tiling wasn't a GNOME's feature, but we have it in Trisquel 6 thanks to Compiz. As far as I know, we don't in Trisquel 7 because it's impossible to use any window manager other than Metacity without changing GNOME's source code. And Metacity don't seems to have window tiling, at least no in Trisquel 7.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Could Trisquel 8 switch to MATE?
I have Mate and orca working in another distro. There are a few minor accessibility gaps, but it is usable. Since Ubuntu Mate is an official spin, and Mate packages are also maintained in Debian (Jessie) main repos, I think Mate in Trisquel 8 is a fine idea!
