Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
Glenn wrote: I believe the Christian ordinances are two: baptism and the Lord's Supper. I believe they are outward rites appointed by Christ to be administered in each church, not as a means of salvation, but as a visible sign and seal of its reality. (Acts 2:36; 1 Corinthians 11:24-34). This sounds like you do not believe that there is any work of grace in either baptism or the Lord's supper. Is that really what you think? If so, I have some Scriptures to share. Also, the term ordinance has the connotation of law, whereas the term sacrament has the connotation of having a work of grace. Have you purposely chosen ordiance over sacrament or do you consider the words interchangeable? Do you view marriage as a Christian ordiance? As a sacrament? If not, why not? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
Laura wrote: Nope. You'd never believe it. Our denomination calls it an ordinance and I don't know if I agree but I don't have a problem with it either. Can't go there because it will open up a can of worms. I'd like to know what it is too. Is it ordination? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
Yes, but what you don't realize is we fight as brothers and sisters in Christ, not as followers of Satan versus followers of Christ. It's just like physical brothers and sisters. Glenn to DaveL - See here is the difference between we united Christians DAVEH: Ahhh yes.I think I've seen "united Christians " in action here on TT in times past! and the divided Mormons. Laura is all wrong on the 3rd ordinance, but I think no less of her as a Christian because of it. She thinks I am wrong on the 3rd ordinance. But it doesn't matter. We are brother and sister in Christ, because we both have the same Father God.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
PREIn our church we practice footwashing. It is done on an optional basis and is not considered a requirement for salvation or anything else but is considered a reminder of the example of humility and service that Christ taught us. We do it once a year around Easter but some churches do it more often. It has far less emphasis than communion or baptism. Laura -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
I should have said two CHURCH ordinances. I believe there is salvation by grace through faith plus nothing minus nothing. Church of Christ believes one is saved by baptism and believe one continues to be saved by the Lord's Supper. If you miss the Lord's Supper on Sunday and you die that week, you are in trouble with God. They go to great lengths to take communion to members in the hospital and shut-ins every week. PS. I suspect any scriptures you share are the ones C/C misuse to make salvation a condition of salvation. :-) You might want to list them so it won't take up much of your time, and if there is any different Bible verse you want to discuss that would be nice. However, it took me 15 years to get to my present position and I am not open to a works salvation in any way. I am just being honest. I believe grace is from God and works is of man. I believe baptism and the Lord's Supper are both figures, not actual ways to obtain salvation. I think it is interesting that Mormons, Church of Christ, some Jesus only people, and Catholics see works as part of salvation. I used the terms ordinance and sacrament as almost the same. Two sides of one coin. Haven't thought about it in years. I view marriage as an oath. I have not thought of it as an ordinance, but I am open. Glenn wrote: I believe the Christian ordinances are two: baptism and the Lord's Supper. I believe they are outward rites appointed by Christ to be administered in each church, not as a means of salvation, but as a visible sign and seal of its reality. (Acts 2:36; 1 Corinthians 11:24-34). This sounds like you do not believe that there is any work of grace in either baptism or the Lord's supper. Is that really what you think? If so, I have some Scriptures to share. Also, the term "ordinance" has the connotation of law, whereas the term "sacrament" has the connotation of having a work of grace. Have you purposely chosen "ordiance" over "sacrament" or do you consider the words interchangeable? Do you view marriage as a Christian ordiance? As a sacrament? If not, why not? Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
Laura wrote: In our church we practice footwashing. I believe footwashing is a sacrament in that I have seen it bring the grace of Christ to people and affect their relationship with their brothers and sisters, and with Jesus Christ. I don't like the term ordinance because it sounds like a law or rule or ritual that must be done. What is your denomination again? If footwashing is considered optional then why would your denomination call it an ordinance? What is meant by calling it an ordinance? Do they also call footwashing a sacrament? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
DAVEH: Thanx, Laura. I don't see that as a can of worms for you. Who were you worried about...Brother Glenn? If I were to admit that we practice a similar rite, I'm suspect he'd have more than a few critical comments in reply. But, I think you are in a safe harbor! :-) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PREIn our church we practice footwashing. It is done on an optional basis and is not considered a requirement for salvation or anything else but is considered a reminder of the example of humility and service that Christ taught us. We do it once a year around Easter but some churches do it more often. It has far less emphasis than communion or baptism. Laura -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
I agree with you I would call it a sacrement but I guess they use the words interchangeably. Apparently years ago it was a real issue between the Free Will Baptists in Tennessee and North Carolina. My church would be considered liberal by many FWB and many of our people are children of parents who were in full time ministry as pastors or missionaries. Personally I think they have sought out a church were some of the legalism is not found. It is an interesting mix and works for me! Laura Laura wrote: In our church we practice footwashing. I believe footwashing is a sacrament in that I have seen it bring the grace of Christ to people and affect their relationship with their brothers and sisters, and with Jesus Christ. I don't like the term "ordinance" because it sounds like a law or rule or ritual that must be done. What is your denomination again? If footwashing is considered "optional" then why would your denomination call it an ordinance? What is meant by calling it an ordinance? Do they also call footwashing a sacrament? Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
1 Tim. 5:10 states that footwashing is a good work. I don't view good works as an ordinance. To me it's a no brainer, but some denominations make it more than a good work. They make it equal to the Lord's Supper because Jesus washed feet before instituting the Supper. They say, "Jesus commanded us to wash feet. If you don't do it, you are breaking a commandment of Jesus". I believe footwashing is a good work (I used to wash my granddaddy's feet many many times before he died as he could not do so.). Good works can change but ordinances do not change. One good work that changed was "greet one another with a holy kiss". Today we shake hands, except me. I am a hugger.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
We have to go easy on the women, after all, God is against them doing anything in the church but washing floors, right? Mormons and Islam are both pretty much anti-women. DAVEH: Thanx, Laura. I don't see that as a can of worms for you. Who were you worried about...Brother Glenn? If I were to admit that we practice a similar rite, I'm suspect he'd have more than a few critical comments in reply. But, I think you are in a safe harbor! :-)
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
In a message dated 10/10/2002 9:05:14 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1 Tim. 5:10 states that footwashing is a good work. I don't view good works as an ordinance. To me it's a no brainer, but some denominations make it more than a good work. They make it equal to the Lord's Supper because Jesus washed feet before instituting the Supper. They say, "Jesus commanded us to wash feet. If you don't do it, you are breaking a commandment of Jesus". I believe footwashing is a good work (I used to wash my granddaddy's feet many many times before he died as he could not do so.). Good works can change but ordinances do not change. One good work that changed was "greet one another with a holy kiss". Today we shake hands, except me. I am a hugger. Told you this would be a can of worms. LOL We make it an optional practice - and not part of the actual church service. I agree it is a work so is baptism if it is done for the wrong reasons. H Did I just open up another can? Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
Glenn wrote: 1 Tim. 5:10 states that footwashing is a good work. I don't view good works as an ordinance. Hold on a minute. This passage is not speaking about a ceremony of footwashing, which is what some Christians do when they sit around in a circle, take their shoes off, and wash each other's feet. This passage is talking about the good work of receiving someone in your home, and when they come in, washing their dirty feet because they wore sandals back then on dry, dusty roads. This is as different as talking about an elder as an older person and talking about an elder as an appointed person in the church. Glenn wrote: They say, Jesus commanded us to wash feet. If you don't do it, you are breaking a commandment of Jesus. This suggests that ordinance for you is something Christians are commanded to do and must do. Is that right? I'm still waiting for you to define what you mean by ordinance. Glenn wrote: One good work that changed was greet one another with a holy kiss. Today we shake hands, except me. I am a hugger. I still like the hug and kiss approach, but if the person is a stranger, sometimes I resort to simply shaking their hand. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Definitions
1. Work Something we do to complete a task and it usually means something is received in return.I would say that doing good things as in works are a result of obedience to commands that Christ gave but they don't save us. I'd say good works are a natural result of following Christ 2. Ordinance I would say it comes from the word ordain which means to put in order so it is a law or a decree that puts something in order. I don't think it is necessarily religious. 3. Sacrament probably comes from sacred which is consecrated so it is a religious rite that is practiced and considered holyas in holy matrimony or holy communion -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
Glenn wrote: I should have said two CHURCH ordinances. I believe there is salvation by grace through faith plus nothing minus nothing. So what does that term "ordinance" mean in your usage? What is the distinction you are now trying to make by saying "Church" ordinance as opposed to "Chritian" ordinance? Glenn - Church ordinance - Ordain of God as a command to do. IT never changes. Church ordinance is not in opposition to Christian ordinance. Glenn wrote: PS. I suspect any scriptures you share are the ones C/C misuse to make salvation a condition of salvation. Perhaps, but I am not talking about conditions of salvation. I believe that after a person is saved, he will continue to experience the grace of Christ, and the Lord's supper, for example, is a vehicle which brings that grace upon a person. I'm not talking about in a magical way, but as a means whereby the faith of a person finds expression and thereby the person receives a touch from God. Glenn - Agreed. How do you understand grace in relation to these ordinances? Can you define ordinance for us? What is an ordinance and why do you limit the number of ordinances to only two? Glenn - I limit the number of ordainances to two because I see them as the two unchangables that makes a church a church and not a nice social club. Glenn wrote: I used the terms ordinance and sacrament as almost the same. Two sides of one coin. Haven't thought about it in years. I view marriage as an oath. I have not thought of it as an ordinance, but I am open. That's interesting. The word "sacrament" comes from the Latin word for oath. The Roman Soldiers would take an oath of allegiance to the Roman empire, and this was called a sacrament in Latin. In much of the Christian literature that identifies sacraments, they use this idea of an "oath" to define it. For example, baptism is that act of pledging yourself to Christ, therefore, it is a sacrament. The Lord's supper is a means of continuing a reaffirmation of your oath to Christ. The priesthood is considered an oath of service, and therefore a sacrament, or marriage is an oath, and therefore a sacrament. I can see very clearly that you must define what you mean by the term "ordinance" or "sacrament" if we are going to be able to understand one another and communicate. I would define a sacrament as a ritual, ceremony, or action which involves a commitment or oath, that when coupled with faith, brings the grace of Christ upon that person to fulfill that oath / commitment. Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism and the Lord's Supper
Glenn wrote: 1 Tim. 5:10 states that footwashing is a good work. I don't view good works as an ordinance. Hold on a minute. This passage is not speaking about a ceremony of footwashing, which is what some Christians do when they sit around in a circle, take their shoes off, and wash each other's feet. This passage is talking about the good work of receiving someone in your home, and when they come in, washing their dirty feet because they wore sandals back then on dry, dusty roads. This is as different as talking about an elder as an older person and talking about an elder as an appointed person in the church. Glenn - EXACTLY. Foot washing is a good work. It is not a church ordinance. It was a custom. Glenn wrote: They say, "Jesus commanded us to wash feet. If you don't do it, you are breaking a commandment of Jesus". This suggests that "ordinance" for you is something Christians are commanded to do and must do. Is that right? I'm still waiting for you to define what you mean by ordinance. Glenn wrote: One good work that changed was "greet one another with a holy kiss". Today we shake hands, except me. I am a hugger. I still like the hug and kiss approach, but if the person is a stranger, sometimes I resort to simply shaking their hand. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] Definitions
Laura wrote: 1. Work Something we do to complete a task and it usually means something is received in return. I would say that doing good things as in works are a result of obedience to commands that Christ gave but they don't save us. I understand your position that good works do not save us, but do good works bring us any merit with either God or man? Also, in regard to your definition, what about works that come about not as a result of obedience to commands, but simply being motivated by love? For example, if you see someone hurt or in need, and you are moved with compassion. Wouldn't that be a good work? If so, perhaps we need to refine your definition? Laura wrote: 2. Ordinance I would say it comes from the word ordain which means to put in order so it is a law or a decree that puts something in order. I don't think it is necessarily religious. From this definition, it seems like you ought to hold to more than 3 ordinances, doesn't it? Surely there are more than 3 laws or decrees that put things in order within your church. Laura wrote: 3. Sacrament probably comes from sacred which is consecrated so it is a religious rite that is practiced and considered holy as in holy matrimony or holy communion So now you are saying that marriage is a sacrament? But before you said that marriage was not an ordinance, and I thought you considered ordinance and sacrament interchangeable. What am I missing here? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] True or False Test
I would like to see several people take the following test, especially Glenn and Laura. :-) True or False 1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without good works) 2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified before God. 3. A person is condemned by works if his works are sinful. 4. Good works carry no merit whatsoever before God. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
In a message dated 10/10/2002 4:52:15 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: True or False 1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without good works) True but if the faith is sincere works SHOULD follow 2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified before God. True 3. A person is condemned by works if his works are sinful. Not necessarily I have to say false 4. Good works carry no merit whatsoever before God. I think good works done with the right "heart" attitude do carry merit. God blesses us when we do good works Answer is false
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Tell me these are not trick questions and I will try to answer them. I am wondering if you are confused over this perfection doctrine. I just can't buy perfection. One has to redefine perfection to believe in it. NO one is perfect in his thoughts. No one loves perfectly, etc., I would like to see several people take the following test, especially Glenn and Laura. :-) True or False 1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without good works) 2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified before God. 3. A person is condemned by works if his works are sinful. 4. Good works carry no merit whatsoever before God. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: Tell me these are not trick questions and I will try to answer them. These are not trick questions. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
True or False 1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without good works) True, meaning Salvation comes by faith alone. Justification defined: just as if I never sinned. Abraham justified through faith Gen. 15:6 No one can earn justification Rom. 3:22-24 Works nullify grace Rom. 4:4-5; Rom. 11:6 Based on God's mercy, not human will or effort Titus 3:5-7; Rom. 9:16 Salvation is strictly a gift Eph. 2:8-9 2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified before God. False - Meaning if he claims to be saved and has not works, his faith is dead James 2:17-20 3. A person is condemned by works if his works are sinful. True Romans 6:6 4. Good works carry no merit whatsoever before God. Merit meaning: 1) Spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefits 2) Character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem False meaning there is nothing we can do to deserve reward in heaven or even to deserve God's love for us. True meaning our works, after we are saved, express our love to Christ and Christ covets our love. Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
I think the answers given to the test so far will lead to some very interesting discussions. I'm going out of town for several days so I may not be able to respond much until next week. I hope to see some more answers from others when I get back. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
PRESee you expected Glenn and I to answer the same way. Actually I don't find that much fault with his answers but I look at some of it differently. Laura -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] I have had 5 different independent Baptists this week tell me directly
Independent, pre-millenial, fundamental, King James ONLY Baptist No. 1 - "If you use any other version than the King James you need to get saved". No. 2 - "It's not the King James only, it's the only King James. Big difference" No. 3 - "It takes an idiot not to understand the King James Bible. A person with a 3rd grade education can understand it." No 4 - "King James was not an immoral person". No. 5 - "If you were a man, you would come down here to my church building and fight me like a man". PS. THEY'RE A LOT LIKE ISLAM, MORMONISM, IN THAT THEY HATE WOMEN DOING ANYTHING IN THE CHURCH.
