Re: [TruthTalk] Were Adam and Eve subject to death before they sinned?
Kevin Deegan wrote: No you don't have it.Some will be reunited with their Bodies so that they can be cast WHOLE (BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT) into Hell. This will be a Horrible destiny of EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION. DAVEH: You are moving us into another topic, Kevin. I don't quite see what I've missed about your belief. I understood the above, though I would ask you to explain "EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION". Do you believe that physical body destroyed in the process? It will not be a good thing to have your body cast into HellDAVEH: As I've previously (before you came to TT) explained on TT, the instances where the Bible speaks to this, it is always done relative to symbolical passages. It is my belief that the lake of fire brimstone is symbolic as well. I believe the hell those who chose not to follow Jesus will suffer will be the mental/spiritual pain of being separated from God and the love of Christ.It is not Spiritual death, it is LITERAL, their body will be a torch forever. DAVEH: Above you suggested it is an "EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION", but yet now you are suggesting nothing is really destroyed in this process. Please explain what you mean by "EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION" if nothing is destroyed. God will not let that torch burn out. They will suffer torment forever. They will suffer everlasting Spiritual Death, constant Physical death and will experience the same in their souls.Hell is a literal Place of never ending TormentMt 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.People weep, people have teethDAVEH: Now you are introducing a new element of "outer darkness". IMO, this is a bit of a different category than the commonly believed hell consisting of the lake of fire brimstone.We farther apart than the extremes of two opposite ends of the Universe. NOT even Close! DAVEH: Sure..if you insist on jumping all over the board instead of confining the discussion to the topic of what spiritual and physical death mean relative to Paul's comments that were previously quoted. I've got to say, Kevin..it is rather difficult to have a serious discussion with you due to your tangential responses. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Is your name in the Book?DAVEH: I'm not sure why you expect me to answer your questions, Kevin..when you go to such lengths to avoid mine. Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: Yes all men will be ressurected DAVEH: OK.maybe we aren't as far apart as I imagined, Kevin. Let me restate what I perceive you believe so I can be sure I am understanding you correctly You believe ALL mortals (good and/or bad) will inherit a resurrected physical body after mortality..correct? Some to Everlasting life DAVEH: OK..I assume you agree with me that is meant in a spiritual sense? Whereas receiving a physical resurrection we discussed above requires no effort on our part..now, the "Everlasting life" or spiritual life does require some effort on our partdo you agree? For instance, at the very least it requires you to exercise faith and repentance, so it cannot be considered as a totally free gift. Do you agree that those who do not exercise faith and repent of their sins will NOT inherit "Everlasting life"???Some to die the SECOND DEATH and Face Everlasting DESTRUCTION DAVEH: Again, Kevin...I don't think we are far apart on this. Can you agree with me that those who do not take the first steps (such as the faith and repentance I mentioned above) to accepting Jesus as their Savior will face a spiritual death (Everlasting DESTRUCTION) after their physical resurrection? That is my belief and is apparently somewhat as you believe as far as I can see at this point. Assuming we agree with the above basic premise, then I'm not sure why you disagree on the meaning of what I explained 1Cor 15:22 meant as I described in my below previous post to you. Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: It seems to me the free gift spoken about in this passage is the physical resurrection all men will receive due to Jesus' resurrection, which applies to all men as Paul described in 1Cor 15:22 below. One does not have to do anything to earn a physical resurrection.it truly is a free gift to all mortals.1 Corinthians 15:21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.Those that are IN Christ will be made alive. Those that are without (OR OUTSIDE OF CHRIST) will face EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with you on this, Kevin. You have emphasized the in while ignoring the all. All men
RE:{Service#002-420-139}[TruthTalk] I found it Blaine...but you lost it
Dear Valued Customer, You must have received our earlier reminder. We want to remind you again that yoursubscription with TrafficMagnet is still overdue for payment. Reminder - Your Outstanding Paymentswith TrafficMagnet Please note Reminders will be sent to you periodically when you have outstanding payments with TrafficMagnet. When you have signed up for TrafficMagnet Monthly service,we submit your websiteto over 300,000 search engines and directorieson a monthly basis. Asper our service specific Terms and Conditions,your subscription fees will bebilled on a quarterly basis (every 3 months)in advance.Our record showsthatyoursubscription is due forpayment and we have not beenable to process your credit card. Stay Listed on the Search Engines! Monthly submissions of your website to 300,000 search engines and directories are your best guarantee tostaylisted on the search engines! To continue your subscription to TrafficMagnet, pleaseverify thecredit card detailsgiven to us during your sign up oruseourResubmission Form to provide us with an alternate credit card details.As our system has captured all data related to your website from your initial sign-up, you only need to resubmit your credit card details. You do not need to submit all your submissiondetails. Please click thison link to access the Resubmission Form andto resubmit your credit card details: https://secure.cardpayments.biz/mytrafficmagnet/resubmissionform.html Viewyour Account details from My TrafficMagnet - OurMembers' Area My TrafficMagnet our Members Area - is an online self-service tool which will enable you to manage your search engine portfolio including your account details and outstanding invoices. You can loginto My TrafficMagnet at the following page: www.trafficmagnet.com. Forgotten your Password toMy TrafficMagnet If you have forgotten your password, y ou just need to submit the exact email address you provided us during your sign up and a newpassword willbe emailed to you within 24hours. You may request for a new password at your own convenience fromthe following page; https://secure.cardpayments.biz/mytrafficmagnet/forgot_password.jsp How to Terminate your Subscription with TrafficMagnet If youwishtoterminate your subscription with TrafficMagnet Monthly service, you need to send us Cancellation Request Form anytime prior to yournext billing cycle.OurCancellation Request Form andinformation on our Cancellation Policy and Procedure is available on our Online HelpDeskat http://secure.trafficmagnet.com/needhelp/cancellation.html We look forward to yourimmediate settlement of the account. Please write to us if there is any other particular reason that your payment has been overdue so that we maybe able to do our best to provide you a solution. Best Regards, Support Team[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.trafficmagnet.com For easy tracking,please indicatetheService Reference #from thesubject lineinall yourfuture dialogue with TrafficMagnet. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED])Date: Monday, December 22, 2003 10:07 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED])Subject: [TruthTalk] I found it Blaine...but you lost it From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why the BIG Play on the emotions of others to try and pressure us to stop? When that failed why the pressure thru city hall to write City ordinances to silence our speech put away our signs consign us to a location up the street? - Judy: How is it you can't understand this Kevin? Put yourself in their shoes ... This is the kind of thing that in the long run will bring the wrong kind of attention to all religions, the kind that the Christian Church does not want or need. Our National Constitution guarantees freedom of religion for everyone and that includes the Mormons. What we (the Christian Church) need to do is get our own act together as a body of believers. Dean writes 12/21: Brother Kevin, I just read a sermon by J.Wesley entitled "Sermon on the Mount 12" and in this sermon he dealt withthe issue offalse prophets.I found the area of identifying these false teachers to be very interesting as they not only point to DaveH but also others on this site. I will quote some of this sermon for you: These are false prophets of the highest sense of the word. These are traitors both of God and man. These are no more than the first born of Satan; the eldest sons of Apollyon,the Destroyer. These are far above the ranks of ordinary cut-throats;for
[TruthTalk] Original sin
Another question for DavidM: Since you are so certain that Jesus is the natural genealogical seed of Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc. and the rule for interpreting scripture is that scripture ALWAYS interprets other scripture. How is it that Paul wrote in 68 A.D. "If you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise?" I belong to Christ so that makes ME Abraham's seed also no matter what blood runs through my veins... so obviously the seed is a spiritual seed rather than bio/genetic. But I am interested in your response Grace and Peace, Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] street preachers/free speech
DAVEH: Hm...I sometimes wonder why some non LDS folks are so anxious to get inside the Temples, Rubin. Are you one who wants to do so? Ruben: DAVEH is it my fault that your church is so secretive on matters? Why not have me do a walk throughwith a friend or three and take a lookski? Why not have us do a walk around, knock on a few walls, open a few doors, flick a few lights on and off, you know give the place a little white glove treatment? Pull some strings and let us get this over with and in exchange we will allow you to do the same at David Miller's house. So when can we start this field trip?? -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] street preachers/free speech
irebukeu wrote: DAVEH: Hm...I sometimes wonder why some non LDS folks are so anxious to get inside the Temples, Rubin. Are you one who wants to do so? Ruben: DAVEH is it my fault that your church is so secretive on matters? Why not have me do a walk throughwith a friend or three and take a lookski? DAVEH: We do encourage that prior to the dedication/rededication processes. Perry mentioned he did so, though did not feel comfortable giving it the white glove treatment, whereas on the other hand, I did poke around a bit when I did took the tour. Why not have us do a walk around, knock on a few walls, open a few doors, flick a few lights on and off, you know give the place a little white glove treatment? Pull some strings and let us get this over with and in exchange we will allow you to do the same at David Miller's house. DAVEH: Why wait? If DavidM has nothing to hide, wouldn't you think it would be OK to do a thorough inspection right away? So when can we start this field trip?? DAVEH: The next time a Temple is completed or refurbished. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk]secret ceremonies
Are you guys doing a sacred tribal dance in the Temple? http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Feb/02092004/utah/137167.asp Village banishes professor - The Associated Press TAOS PUEBLO, N.M. -- A college professor has been banned from a New Mexico Indian community after writing an essay about a sacred tribal dance that was published in a newspaper. The banishment means Tito Naranjo, 66, could be arrested if he enters Taos Pueblo, about 110 miles northeast of Albuquerque. Many tribes prohibit sacred dances from being recorded in stories or photographs because they believe doing so detracts from the ritual's spiritual significance. Naranjo, who lives in nearby Mora, said he was inspired by the "deer dance" and submitted a short essay to a newspaper writing contest. The essay, published Dec. 21, took first place in the adult category and earned Naranjo $100. Leaders of Taos Pueblo accused Naranjo of using tribal religious activity "for self promotion by writing an essay of a sensitive activity for publication." . Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
RE: [TruthTalk]secret ceremonies
Careful, Kevin, the story you cited may soon be used as a paleontological proof' that the LDS are related to the Indians! Especially if the Indian ritual resembled the ceremonies of the craft. From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk]secret ceremonies Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:26:23 -0800 (PST) Are you guys doing a sacred tribal dance in the Temple? http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Feb/02092004/utah/137167.asp Village banishes professor - The Associated Press TAOS PUEBLO, N.M. -- A college professor has been banned from a New Mexico Indian community after writing an essay about a sacred tribal dance that was published in a newspaper. The banishment means Tito Naranjo, 66, could be arrested if he enters Taos Pueblo, about 110 miles northeast of Albuquerque. Many tribes prohibit sacred dances from being recorded in stories or photographs because they believe doing so detracts from the ritual's spiritual significance. Naranjo, who lives in nearby Mora, said he was inspired by the deer dance and submitted a short essay to a newspaper writing contest. The essay, published Dec. 21, took first place in the adult category and earned Naranjo $100. Leaders of Taos Pueblo accused Naranjo of using tribal religious activity for self promotion by writing an essay of a sensitive activity for publication. . - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online _ Plan your next US getaway to one of the super destinations here. http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] FW: NIGHTLINE: Articles of Faith
Title: Nightline I thought some of you might be interested in tonights Nightline topic. Nightline airs on ABC at 11:35 pm Eastern Time. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. Nightline Daily E-Mail February 9, 2004 TONIGHT'S FOCUS: Where do you draw the line between maintaining a secular state and allowing freedom of _expression_? Tomorrow the French National Assembly is set to vote to ban the display of religious symbols--the Muslim headscarf, large crucifixes and yarmulkes--at public schools. The plan has set off a raging debate in France, and it is a debate that is playing out all over the world, including in this country. The post 9-11 world has changed the way the world looks at anything to do with the Islamic faith. France has the largest Muslim population in Europe, 5 million strong. And there is a feeling among some that the population has failed to assimilate into mainstream French culture and society. So the French government decided that the banning of headscarves in public schools would help that process. Of course the backlash was immediate, it was a move seen as discriminatory and anti-Islam. The ban was broadened to include religious symbols--crosses and yarmulkes--to make it an issue about secularism not Islam. But it hasn't been seen that way. Many Muslims see it as an assault on their faith and it has emboldened many who might not be inclined to display their faith publicly. You know how it goes. When you are 15 years old and your mother doesn't want you to wear that short skirt or revealing top, that is exactly what you want to wear. It is the only thing that you will wear. The best way to get young people to do something is to ban them from doing it. The furor in France raises issues that are important for a country like the United States. In a secular society that prides itself on the separation between church and state, what is an appropriate public display of religion that doesn't interfere with the notion of secularism? It is a tough issue made more emotional by the visceral reaction that people have towards headscarves. For some it is a symbol of oppression, for others it is a symbol of women's strength and it mutes the objectification of women. In a free society, shouldn't we be free to demonstrate our faith? And with the U.S. at war with terrorism, how does this country balance the instinct to brand many of the Islamic faith as suspicious people and the need to see people of faith as individuals, allowing them to practice their faith without interfering for political or security reasons? Correspondent Richard Gizbert will report from Paris and we are still working on guests for Chris Bury tonight. We hope you will join us for a broadcast that deals with one of the most difficult issues a free society faces. Madhulika Sikka and the Nightline Staff ABCNEWS Washington bureau --- Ask your friends to sign up! Send them this link: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/nightline_login.html Did you know that ABCNEWS.com can also send you a daily email from ABCNEWS Political Unit? Get the daily political scoop from our insider sources. Click here to sign up!
Re: [TruthTalk] street preachers/free speech
Blaine: Ruben, I would like to describe in detail what they do in what they call the washing and annointing rooms, but do not feel I should--not because it is so much a secret, it is just a sacred ordinance. Ruben: What is it, with the touchy feely stuff? This is not the doctor Laura show.this is TRUTH TALK. Take it like a man..washing and anointing rooms ?? Well OK, now we are getting somewhere..oh.there you go again, talking that feely stuff..can we just stick to the oil issue without getting so emotional? We were almost there!! Alright, now we are shedding light in this darken area, so we have one washing room and one anointing room, which you consider sacred ordinance? The part with the oil is very similar to what is described in the Book of Samuel wherein David was annointed to be King over Israel. Not to much there to complain about was there? Ruben: (raising my hand up to ask a question) Just so we are on the same page, are we talking about 1Samuel 16 here? Where we find this *anointing* was done by a *prophet* outside and *not in a temple* to ordain David *king* and at that point the *Spirit of God came upon* David? Then we read further when this type of anointing went on (that you used as an example) that evil spirits are involved.now get this..sent from God. So you use that text and you wonder why we think what we do, JUST WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON IN THAT TEMPLE OF YOURS?? But I can say men are NEVER allowed in the washing and annointing rooms with women, nor are women ever allowed in with men. AND there are always two witnesses to everything that is done. My wife and I have been there many times, and I know precisely what is and what is not done. Ruben: This is fine, if you believe that God dwells in a man made building but you do understand we do live in the New Testament and I hope you find something in the Epistles about washing and anointing rooms in a temple? After the resurrection of Jesus, where as our lamb of God, we now have the Holy Ghost within not upon us, coupled with the written Word. Call me old fashion, but if you wish to win me/us over try giving us something written from Paul/Peter/James to the Churches. If you prefer not to take my word for it, then the only thing I can recommend is that you figure out a way to spy on us! (:) Ruben: Sorry guys, I travel often. Your church/city/State only get me three times a year, so I do not have the time to spy. So I do the next best thing, I ask questions and what happens.weddings explode, media blows it way out of proportion, your mayor gets upset at us, your church believes we call every woman a whore and now your city wants to make laws against us. What's a street preacher to do?? If we speculate you mock us, if we ask questions you hate us..what's a street preacher to do?? I can tell you also that there is a special, sacred spirit in those rooms. Some have testified they saw the spirits of those whose work was being done. I always feel renewed after being in one. It is better than being in church singing hymns. Ruben: ***BELLS RINGING***LIGHTS FLASHINGBUZZINGALARMS SOUNDINGPAYDIRT Please do tell us more about these spirits.inquiring minds want to know? Better than hymns? -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] street preachers/free speech
Blaine: Aww, you guys are just being defensive. Maybe you should follow the advice af an old sage I once knew--he was LDS Pres David O McKay. He said, Avoid even the appearance of evil. Maybe you guys need to try doing that on your next round of harrassing the honorable Mormon people. Then you won't have so much explaining to do. Ruben: Hey Blaine, how about giving credit where it is due. How about the Apostle Paul who wrote Abstain from all appearance of evil (1Th.5:22)..would that be to much to ask for? If you think we come to your town just to harass mormons? You guys are not the only sinners around, we could go elsewhere..but then again God is trying to give you a message of not outgrowing the Bible. I exhort you to join me in April, I exhort you to come Saturday 8AM-5PM and Sunday 7:30AM-4PM both days ALL DAY. Come and hear for yourself what we do and why we do. You will meet mormons that meet us every convention to continue our conversation from the past years. Come hear how with ONE question, we can get 4 different answers. With each of them schooled on saying we don't believe that or what makes you think we believe that? See how we use something as foolish as waving your holy undergarments to make points and gather crowds, but watch you don't get physical because most Salt Lake police hang around where I stand. Watch how we work with the police, City attorney, church security, media, mormons, ex-mormons, angry mormons rather than hearing it third hand, come watch for yourself. Not part of a day, ALL DAY and not one day ALL WEEKEND. If we can do it..mere uneducated street preachers, surely you..who holds the truth, who has the right church, who knows God can do that?..of course if that is OK with your wife? I don't want to see her drive around the temple while you and I are male bonding, she might get upset and you might not call her out from the grave? And you know me.I personally try to avoid problems in marriage. You can stand by me and I will guarantee that you will look at us with a different 20/20 then you do now, you can say nothing but listen or be provoked and get involved. You have ample time to make it happen. Let me give you an example of what we see and what everyone else may witness as two assorted views, this is a portion of my report published to other street preachers. ...The half time event would give you a peek of the streets in Houston that whole weekend. The city had over 300,000 people on Main Street (the main event), concerts, NFL experience, Super Bowl. Out on the streets the crowds are getting more like Mardi Gras/Spring break/MTV with beer, beads and breasts. I was not surprised to hear what Janet did. She symbolized the masses outside the stadium very well. One of the men that joined me preaching last weekend was astonished, he thought the Super Bowl was only a Sunday thing. He was amazed to see the massive amount of people an event like this can bring during that weekend. I can remember preaching to men that idolized the game, but now over the past 10 years, I've witnessed the drinking and nudity to be part of the game. I have not watched a Super Bowl on television for...I can't remember the last one, but I've heard the commercials are even getting corrupted with bad humor? She portrayed inside the stadium what those outside were all about. Maybe her and Michael have more in common than looks? WILL THERE BE AN ENCORE?? Once AGAIN Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake will be together at the 46th annual Grammy Awards here in Los Angeles at the Staples Center this Sunday. As with the Academy/People choice/SAG/MTV/ESPN/Black entertainment/music awards we plan on being there preaching a message to all those BUT THE REAL QUESTION IS...WILL THERE BE AN ENCORE?? Or WHO will do what to WHOM? What will these people expose next, since they will have home field advantage of muSICK fans, instead of a football game? But not all these MTV types seem to be so freaky, two weekends ago in Beverly Hills. We were at the people choice awards and limo after limo passed by our signs and our preaching. Robin Williams/Tom Hanks/Billy Bob Thorton rolled down their window to yell something to us, but the one that gave us the biggest Amen was no other than Queen Latifah hip-hops-sista. Her limo passed by as she rolled down the window, stuck her head out and gave us a big Praise the Lord. Ruben Israel -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
