subject:"\[TruthTalk\] Mediation of Christ \-\- the real vs false"

In a message dated 6/9/2004 7:05:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

It is not a rumour.  It was instituted in Bill C250.  This is the section in our criminal code that speaks against hate crimes/propaganda.  It amended the law to add that one may not incite hatred towards someone based upon their sexual orientation.  The debate surrounding this obviously controversial law continues but from what I have seen it is limiting what people can say from the pulpit in case it is considered a message of hate that could potentially lead to a crime.  It is a limitation on our freedom of speech.



Thanks for the info, Jonathon.   This is exactly what I fear is happening in this country.  


John

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/9/2004 4:53:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I said this:

tad bit on the arrogant side of the ledger, me thinks.  You might not agree with Izzy, being Canadian and all, but her defense of country (her country, not yours) is understandable.   Apparently you think that you should be able to attack anyone's country without the risk of backlash  by those who are "ignorant" of your sense of truth.   


Your response was this:
If you want to read putdowns read Izzyâs posts John.Â To say that she has proceeded in an unchristian manner and has an unhealthy attitude in not a put down; it is an observation of how she has chosen to act on this forum.

Observation:  these are the specific words I call into question: 

One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she has flitted around discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for others.

In this paragraph of thought, Izzy is on a par with a ditsy blond who "flits" about and is concerned with only the superficial.   In the 4 months, this is all that you have noticed in regard to Linda.   Your words, not mine.   Those words have nothing to do with issues and everything to do with the supposed shallowness of Izzy.   

I am not going to debate my critique of your comments because, quite frankly, they are beyond debate. I believe your response  to be below the belt and I do not care what Izzy does in response, as far as this post is concerned.   

I do not think Izzy is without fault, but, again, this post is addressed to you and your words.  Don't mean to anger you  --  just to point out that your notion of someone's dimwitted concerns for everything except country is not germane to any point of any discussion.   

 I will leave it at that.

John

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









You obviously aren’t from Missouri.  Remember Harry Truman? Izzy

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
7:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 

In a message dated 6/9/2004 1:02:42 PM Pacific Daylight
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




OR it could just be the next best thing to a good
punch in the nose. Izzy



Easy does, girl.  Peace not war.  You have ruffled my feathers (yes,
genuine chi chi chicken).  

John

[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Hi Terry, you write:
For what it's worth guys, you both have valid points.  There was no 
sickness until there was sin.  Put another way, sickness entered the 
picture because sin entered the picture.  Sickness is plainly one of the 
penalties for sin.  Having siad that, let me point out that not all sick 
people are sick because they are being punished for their sin.  Some 
are.  Some ain't.  The man or woman with AIDS quite possibly got it in 
the process of sinning, but the baby born with aids got it because a parent 
sinned.. 
 
jt: Would you agree that it is sin related, either our 
sin or someone elses?  Proverbs 26:5 says "the curse causeless does not 
light" so when we see someone dressed in the curse there is always a cause or 
reason why it is there. 
 
Miriam was stricken with leprosy  for one reason.  The blind man 
in John 9:3 was born blind for a totally different reason, so that God could be 
glorified when he was healed. 
 
jt: There was a reason why he was born blind, could 
have been ancestral sin. Jesus didn't answer that question, he told them it 
wasn't the man's sin or his parents but as you point out he needed to work the 
works of God while it was day (if I remember correctly). 
 
Drunks destroy their liver through continual sin, but a lot of godly people 
get catarracts through no fault of their own.  I am certain that Judy did 
not mean to imply that Jonathan was ill because of his sin, but because all 
illness came into being because we are all sinners, or in David Millers case, 
WERE sinners :-) .
 
jt: Jonathan has said that he has CFS which is a 
spiritually rooted disease; it is called  "yuppie disease" or a white 
collar disease. It usually hits professionals at the heighth of their careers 
after they have achieved what they were supposed to achieve to meet the 
expectations of others, they crash.  As they crash the guilt, the self 
hatred comes, the autoimmune components set in, and then we have the 
hypoglycemia which clouds the whole issue so we are chasing this imaginary 
problem. (taken from P.169 of a book called The More Excellent Way by Pastor 
Henry Wright) who has more to say about this and who has had amazing results in 
ministry with people who have CFS, MCSCI and other spiritually rooted 
conditions.He is not into presumption or anything weird.  The issue is 
one of sanctification and is completely scriptural.
 
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: 
Wed, 09 Jun 2004 20:02:25 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
Christ  -- the real vs falseMessage-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>References: 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 
Judy Taylor wrote:
 
From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Judy has made many 
comments on the link between sin and illness.  I believe her viewpoint to 
be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness 
regardless of the severity.  
 
jt: I agree Jonathan that sickness is hurtful and so is sin - it is hurtful 
to us and everyone around us. Judy is not the one making that connection 
Jonathan.  Believe it or not it is Biblical. There would be no sickness but 
for sin and God Himself outlines the blessings that come from obedience and the 
curses that come through disobedience (which are every sickness and plague that 
can be named) in Deuteronomy 28 and Deuteronomy 29. Just because noone wants to 
accept this or talk about it today does not make it 
invalid.- 
-- For what it's worth guys, you 
both have valid points.  There was no sickness until there was sin.  
Put another way, sickness entered the picture because sin entered the 
picture.  Sickness is plainly one of the penalties for sin.  Having 
siad that, let me point out that not all sick people are sick because they are 
being punished for their sin.  Some are.  Some ain't.  The man or 
woman with AIDS quite possibly got it in the process of sinning, but the baby 
born with aids got it because a parent sinned..  Miriam was stricken with 
leprosy  for one reason.  The blind man in John 9:3 was born blind for 
a totally different reason, so that God could be glorified when he was 
healed.  Drunks destroy their liver through continual sin, but a lot of 
godly people get catarracts through no fault of their own.  I am certain 
that Judy did not mean to imply that Jonathan was ill because of his sin, but 
because all illness came into being because we are all sinners, or in David 
Millers case, WERE sinners :-) .Terry

[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hi Judy, You seem to be having an identity crisis here.  
 
jt:  I can't imagine why you would think such a 
thing.
 
Is the viewpoint below what the Bible says or what you perceive the Bible 
says?  
 
jt: You and Lance just love the word "perceive", it's 
where we hang all our differences - right?
 
All you can claim is that it is your interpretation of what the Bible 
says.  
 
jt: That's all anyone who doesn't see it as you do is 
able to do so far as you are concenrned isn't it?
 
You can go so far as saying that you believe the Holy Spirit revealed this 
interpretation to you through scripture.  However, you 
can never divorce what is your interpretation from what may actually be being 
said.  This notion seems to give you fits.  It has been 
illustrated to you time and time again yet you cannot see it.
 
jt: The same is true for you, Lance, TFT, Bill and 
whoever else is hanging onto your peculiar view of the incarnation.
I have no problem with my vision and am not in the 
habit of taking fits.  Wrong on both points.
 
At some point in time you will have to learn how to 
read your Old Testament through the lens of Jesus 
Christ.  
 
jt: No problems with the OT Jonathan. God does not 
change.  He says "I am the Lord, I change not"  Neither does Jesus who 
is "the same yesterday, today, and forever"  Looks to me as though the 
problem is yours rather than mine.
 
Deuteronomy 28 and 29 must be understood in the light of who Jesus is and 
what He has done.  If you read it with an Israeli mindset you will come out 
all wrong.  If you choose a Christian mindset (and I pray that you do) you 
will finally come to understand the law and its place in our lives.  
 
jt: There is just one mindset with which to read God's 
Word and this is the "mind of the Spirit" which is the same as "the mind of 
Christ"  I don't place myself or anyone else under the law. You 
really need to understand sin and it's ramifications in the lives of people 
Jonathan.  Righteousness is something you do, it is not a concept of the 
incarnation.
 
When you do that you will find yourself with a new Bible, one that still 
speaks today to our hearts, one that illuminates salvation, one that edifies 
instead of destroys.  You will begin to worship the Word instead of the 
word.
 
jt: I don't want or need a "new Bible" the ones I have 
speak to my heart all the time. I want to know God's ways and walk in them. 
What would make you imply that the Bible does not speak to my heart? This 
is really a presumptuous statement.
 
Interestingly enough Izzy who is as mad as a hatter at me right now 
actually gave a compassionate reply to my statement below.  Although she 
may agree with you doctrinally she is in a whole other class when it comes to 
compassion.  I feel that you believe your doctrine below so much that it 
limits your ability to be loving; perhaps it is time for the truth.
 
jt: We are different and if you prefer Izzy's way, no 
problem. It's true that I'm not into that kind of compassion with myself or with 
others.  It's too easy to stroke the flesh and fall for self pity and other 
snares.  My way of loving people is being up front and speaking the truth 
to them; I don't play mind games or word games, I don't get mad and I don't take 
fits. You may not appreciate my part of the body today but hopefully you will 
before that day.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 9:17 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: 
[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
 
From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Judy has made many 
comments on the link between sin and illness.  I believe her viewpoint to 
be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness 
regardless of the severity.  
 
jt: I agree Jonathan that sickness is hurtful and so is sin - it is hurtful 
to us and everyone around us. Judy is not the one making that connection 
Jonathan.  Believe it or not it is Biblical. There would be no sickness but 
for sin and God Himself outlines the blessings that come from obedience and the 
curses that come through disobedience (which are every sickness and plague that 
can be named) in Deuteronomy 28 and Deuteronomy 29. Just because noone wants to 
accept this or talk about it today does not make it invalid.
 
jonathan: This is an extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with 
chronic illness for the last 16 years.  You should see the posts that I 
have drafted in my head in response.  The reason they have never seen the 
light of day is because I know it would not be wise to post them.  This is 
one of my sacred cows. 
 
jt: Not unusual Jonathan; there is hardly a family alive who has not or is 
not tou

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









Izzy, John,

 

It is not a rumour.  It was
instituted in Bill C250.  This is the section in our criminal code that
speaks against hate crimes/propaganda.  It amended the law to add that one
may not incite hatred towards someone based upon their sexual orientation. 
The debate surrounding this obviously controversial law continues but from what
I have seen it is limiting what people can say from the pulpit in case it is
considered a message of hate that could potentially lead to a crime.  It
is a limitation on our freedom of speech.

 

If you go to www.google.ca (or com) and type in Bill c250
you will see a lot of information on it.

 

Jonathan

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
9:48 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 

In a message dated 6/9/2004 1:16:45 PM Pacific Daylight
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




So why didn’t you answer my question—I really want to hear
from you that this rumor was false. Izzy

  



Actually I have heard the same thing from a number of pastors who insist that
they know it to be true.   Specifically, I have heard that it is
unlawful to preach against gays , even in the pulpit.  

J

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/9/2004 1:16:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

So why didnât you answer my questionâI really want to hear from you that this rumor was false. Izzy

  



Actually I have heard the same thing from a number of pastors who insist that they know it to be true.   Specifically, I have heard that it is unlawful to preach against gays , even in the pulpit.  

J

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/9/2004 1:02:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

OR it could just be the next best thing to a good punch in the nose. Izzy



Easy does, girl.  Peace not war.  You have ruffled my feathers (yes, genuine chi chi chicken).  

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

2004-06-09 Thread Terry Clifton





Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Judy has
made many comments on the link between sin and illness.  I believe her
viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those
that live with illness regardless of the severity.  
   
  jt: I agree
Jonathan that sickness is hurtful and so is sin - it is hurtful to us
and everyone around us. Judy is not the one making that connection
Jonathan.  Believe it or not it is Biblical. There would be no sickness
but for sin and God Himself outlines the blessings that come from
obedience and the curses that come through disobedience (which are
every sickness and plague that can be named) in Deuteronomy 28 and
Deuteronomy 29. Just because noone wants to accept this or talk about
it today does not make it invalid.
  --- 

For what it's
worth guys, you both have valid points.  There was no sickness until
there was sin.  Put another way, sickness entered the picture because
sin entered the picture.  Sickness is plainly one of the penalties for
sin.  Having siad that, let me point out that not all sick people are
sick because they are being punished for their sin.  Some are.  Some
ain't.  The man or woman with AIDS quite possibly got it in the process
of sinning, but the baby born with aids got it because a parent
sinned..  Miriam was stricken with leprosy  for one reason.  The blind
man in John 9:3 was born blind for a totally different reason, so that
God could be glorified when he was healed.  Drunks destroy their liver
through continual sin, but a lot of godly people get catarracts through
no fault of their own.  I am certain that Judy did not mean to imply
that Jonathan was ill because of his sin, but because all illness came
into being because we are all sinners, or in David Millers case, WERE
sinners :-) .
Terry

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









Hi Judy,

 

You seem to be having an identity crisis
here.  Is the viewpoint below what the Bible says or what you perceive the Bible says?  All you can
claim is that it is your interpretation of what the Bible says.  You can
go so far as saying that you believe the Holy Spirit revealed this
interpretation to you through scripture.  However, you can never divorce
what is your interpretation from what may actually be being said.  This
notion seems to give you fits.  It has been illustrated to you time and
time again yet you cannot see it.

 

At some point in time you will have to
learn how to read your Old Testament through the lens of Jesus Christ. 
Deuteronomy 28 and 29 must be understood in the light of who Jesus is and what
He has done.  If you read it with an Israeli mindset you will come out all
wrong.  If you choose a Christian mindset (and I pray that you do) you
will finally come to understand the law and its place in our lives.  When
you do that you will find yourself with a new Bible, one that still speaks
today to our hearts, one that illuminates salvation, one that edifies instead
of destroys.  You will begin to worship the Word instead of the word.

 

Interestingly enough Izzy who is as mad as
a hatter at me right now actually gave a compassionate reply to my statement
below.  Although she may agree with you doctrinally she is in a whole
other class when it comes to compassion.  I feel that you believe your doctrine
below so much that it limits your ability to be loving; perhaps it is time for
the truth.

 

Jonathan

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Judy Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
9:17 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false



 



From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>





Judy has made many comments on the link
between sin and illness.  I believe her viewpoint to be completely
unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of
the severity.  





 





jt: I agree Jonathan that sickness is
hurtful and so is sin - it is hurtful to us and everyone around us. Judy is not
the one making that connection Jonathan.  Believe it or not it is
Biblical. There would be no sickness but for sin and God Himself outlines the
blessings that come from obedience and the curses that come through
disobedience (which are every sickness and plague that can be named) in
Deuteronomy 28 and Deuteronomy 29. Just because noone wants to accept this or
talk about it today does not make it invalid.





 





jonathan: This is an extremely touchy
subject for me as I have lived with chronic illness for the last 16
years.  You should see the posts that I have drafted in my head in
response.  The reason they have never seen the light of day is because I
know it would not be wise to post them.  This is one of my sacred
cows. 





 





jt: Not unusual Jonathan; there is hardly
a family alive who has not or is not touched by something chronic, either
physically or behaviorally, and that inclues me and mine. I am still dealing
with my own stuff but I find denial gets one nowhere.  It's good to agree
with God because only the truth will make any of us free - experientially
free - not just in theoretically free.





 





Judyt

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









Hi John,

 

I must disagree with you here; perhaps you
haven’t yet read the entire conversation between Izzy and I.  What I
think has nothing to do with being Canadian.  I would feel exactly the
same way if I was American (My sister lives and works in America – I have close ties there).  I do not think that anyone should attack
another country but I definitely feel that we should be able to critique
them.  To critique, to have an opinion is not to attack.  Surely you
don’t disagree?

 

As I mentioned to Izzy, if there are
things said about Canada I am open to discuss them.  There would be no
spit fire defense, only dialogue.

 

If you want to read putdowns read Izzy’s
posts John.  To say that she has proceeded in an unchristian manner and
has an unhealthy attitude in not a put down; it is an observation of how she
has chosen to act on this forum.

 

Jonathan









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
3:18 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 

In a message dated 6/9/2004 5:58:38 AM Pacific Daylight
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




One of my points to Izzy
(I believe it was missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she
has flitted around discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal
debates for others.  Then when her country’s actions are called into
question her rockets fire and she proceeds to attack in an unchristian manner
(and of course justifies it by saying my manners are bad and that it is sin to
question America and asks that God forgive my jealousy).  This seems to me
to be a very unhealthy attitude.



A tad bit on the arrogant side of the ledger, me thinks.  You might not
agree with Izzy, being Canadian and all, but her defense of country (her
country, not yours) is understandable.   Apparently you think that
you should be able to attack anyone's country without the risk of
backlash  by those who are "ignorant" of your sense of
truth.   

If I decided to go after Cana dah , well, I would expect some spite fire
defense from you.  So lets chalk it up to what is natural and normal and
leave off the  putdowns.  


John

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

Unreal David.  You are far too smart for this kind of talk.  How does
calling someone sincere yet relatively stupid speaking evil or something
even close to hate?  To critique a person is to analyze their character and
their actions.  You may not agree with a critique (i.e. you do not believe
that Bush has made stupid decisions) but there is no hate or evil here,
merely an opinion.

Jonathan


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 6:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

Lance gets political and says:
> From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere 
> but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be 
> the 'world leader' for four more years ...

1.  Bush is not a fundamentalist.

2.  Bush is not stupid.

Please try to substantiate your characterizations or retract them.

Also, why do you hate our President and speak evil of him?  

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









Hi Izzy,

 

This is getting so tiring.  The real
vs false in the title comes into play here.  Keep in mind that I did watch
the unprovoked assault (I was home sick that day and watched it in real time as
I happened to have CNN on).  Keep in mind that I am probably closer
distance wise to the location of the attack than you are.  Keep in mind
that 24 innocent Canadians were killed in the attacks as well.  Keep in
mind that I do not believe that the attack was just against America although it took place on American soil; it was against the Western world. 
Keep in mind that I include Canada in that critique.

 

I never in any way, shape, form or fashion
said any of my remarks on the incredible tragedy of 9/11 with a smirk.  I
never said that it was anything close to being ‘finally…what you
had coming to you.’  Those are lies you have made up.  You are
mad at a perception in your own mind.  My attitude has never approached anything
evil, hateful, or disgusting.  You owe me an apology for these lies. Either
back them up with actual quotes from me or retract them.  As I pointed out
time and time again (with no response from you – did you even read my
posts?) my problem with you is your rejection of critical thinking regarding
the attacks.  To say they were because of hatred does not answer the
question. It begs another: Why is the Western world (personified by America) hated?  Then you start getting somewhere.  Am I dismissing your anger
regarding the injustice of the attacks?  No!  It angers me as
well.  Rather I am saying that 2 and a half years later it is time to be reflective
and learn from the tragedy.

 

Jonathan

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
4:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 

Just keep in
mind, Jonathan, how you might feel if you watched an unprovoked assault on your
nation with 3000 innocent Canadians killed by perverts who just hate you for
being Canadians, and then someone said to you with a smirk, “Well, maybe now you will try to figure out why they didn’t
like you.  You finally got what you had coming to
you.”  You should expect an angry response to such an evil
attitude.  And then you have the NERVE to accuse me of confusing America with God and an “unhealthy attitude”??? You are a real piece of liberal
work.  Izzy

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
6:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 

Aye thank you Lance,

 

However I am afraid that the message will
fall on deaf ears or else you will be accused of making hateful, disgusting
posts with slurs.  Sigh.  Her posts in the last half hour that I have
been writing this continue in this vein.  It is sad.

 

One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was
missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she has flitted around
discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for
others.  Then when her country’s actions are called into question
her rockets fire and she proceeds to attack in an unchristian manner (and of
course justifies it by saying my manners are bad and that it is sin to question
  America and asks that God forgive my jealousy).  This seems to me to be
a very unhealthy attitude.

 

My opinion is as follows:

It is good to love your country.

It is good to be grateful to your country
for the freedoms, opportunities and safety it provides.

It is good to pray for and support your
leaders.

It is bad to confuse our country with God.

It is bad to confuse prosperity with
blessing.

It is bad when patriotism keeps us from
listening, from being whole.

It is bad to not be able to listen to
criticism.

It is bad to refuse to listen when our sacred
cow is being addressed. 

(note that when I switch to the bad here I
intentionally switch from ‘your’ to ‘our’ in order to
highlight that we are all in this together.  I do not want any one to feel
attacked here.  You may also replace ‘good’ with Christian and
‘bad’ with unchristian.)

 

That being said I do understand that when
our sacred cows are being prodded it is a painful process.  It is often
easier to respond in anger (I know I have in times when my sacred cows have
been poked.  For example, Judy has made many comments on the link between
sin and illness.  I believe her viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and
extremely hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of the
severity.  This is an extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with
chronic illness for the last 16 years.  You should see the posts that I
have drafted in my head in response.  The reason they have never seen the
light of day is because I know it would not be wise to post them.  This is
one of my sacred cows.  What I need to do is to listen to Judy, to really
hear what she is

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

2004-06-09 Thread David Miller

Lance gets political and says:
> From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere 
> but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be 
> the 'world leader' for four more years ...

1.  Bush is not a fundamentalist.

2.  Bush is not stupid.

Please try to substantiate your characterizations or retract them.

Also, why do you hate our President and speak evil of him?  

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









Sigh of relief. 

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
2:38 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Izzy:Relax. We ain't been sucked
down the vortex of sin's whirlpool just yet. I carry & sell a number of
titles that would be described as critiquing homosexuality. One of Canada's
leading authorities, who has paid dearly for his position, is a friend and
regular shopper in our store.





 





 





 





 







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 09, 2004 16:15





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



So why didn’t you answer my question—I really want
to hear from you that this rumor was false. Izzy

 

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
1:48 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Just two eh? Hardly a
groundswell. Sort of like 'The Mouse that Roared' with Peter Sellers.
   







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 09, 2004 15:31





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



So it is unanimous from the Canadians.  (Why am I not surprised?) So why didn’t
you answer my question—I really want to hear from you that this rumor was
false. Izzy

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
7:03 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Izzy:Read Jonathan's two excellent
posts again. I fear that this 'religious spirit' has clouded yout judgment, at
least when it comes to the US of A.







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 09, 2004 08:45





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



Perhaps only someone who was born and raised in this incredible
nation, with the freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers.  BTW, I heard a rumor that in Canada
it is illegal to READ anything anti-homosexual. 
Is that possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal.  Izzy

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
5:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Follow up: When a sufficient number
(?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and
sift through the reasons why.





 





On my first visit to a Christian
Booksellers meeting (Texas)
I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian
performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in
white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking:
"there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent
visits (California, Colorado,
Atlanta) I
noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country.





 





Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came
to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of
humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another.





 





So, pray for your leaders, be 'good
citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that
this is not of God.. 







- Original Message - 





From: Jonathan Hughes 





To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



My, my, lots of political stews
today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think of America;
it just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into
buildings to get you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to
get the Western world to realize something, not just America).

 

Do you honestly think that Americans are
well thought of outside of your shores?  Why do you think many of them
pretend to be Canadian when they travel?  I have done a lot of traveling
(3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag
somewhere on my backpack or clothing.  It was amazing the different
reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with.  Do you
have any clue as to what your country is accountable for?  Do you have any
grasp of your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark
Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but
vehemently hate you?

 

When one insults President Bush, one
insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him.  Your
logic is ridiculous!  If what you say is true this means that one cannot
c

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Izzy:Relax. We ain't been sucked down the vortex of 
sin's whirlpool just yet. I carry & sell a number of titles that would be 
described as critiquing homosexuality. One of Canada's leading authorities, who 
has paid dearly for his position, is a friend and regular shopper in our 
store.
 
 
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 09, 2004 16:15
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
  
  
  So 
  why didnt you answer my questionI really want to hear from you that this 
  rumor was false. Izzy
   
   
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 1:48 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
   
  
  Just two eh? 
  Hardly a groundswell. Sort of like 'The Mouse that Roared' with Peter 
  Sellers.    
  

- 
Original Message - 

From: ShieldsFamily 


To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Sent: June 09, 
2004 15:31

    Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs 
false

 
So 
it is unanimous from the Canadians.  
(Why am I not surprised?) So why didnt you answer my questionI 
really want to hear from you that this rumor was false. 
Izzy
 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:03 
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
    Christ -- the real vs false
 

Izzy:Read 
Jonathan's two excellent posts again. I fear that this 'religious spirit' 
has clouded yout judgment, at least when it comes to the US of 
A.

  
  - 
  Original Message - 
  
  From: ShieldsFamily 
  
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  
  Sent: June 09, 
  2004 08:45
  
      Subject: RE: 
  [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs 
  false
  
   
  Perhaps 
  only someone who was born and raised in this incredible nation, with the 
  freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers.  BTW, I heard a rumor that in 
  Canada it is illegal to READ 
  anything anti-homosexual.  Is 
  that possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal.  Izzy
   
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:40 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
   
  
  Follow up: 
  When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins 
  to become important to sort and sift through the reasons 
  why.
  
   
  
  On my first 
  visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi 
  Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center 
  stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) 
  covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion 
  here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in 
  your country.
  
   
  
  Jesus (the 
  Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic 
  covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no 
  nation set above another.
  
   
  
  So, pray 
  for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 
  'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God.. 
  

- 
Original Message - 

From: Jonathan 
Hughes 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Sent: June 07, 
    2004 19:33
    
    Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs 
false

 
My, my, lots of 
political stews today.  My advice: actually listen to what others 
think of America; it just may be 
true.  It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get 
you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to get the 
Western world to realize something, not just America).
 
Do you honestly 
think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores?  
Why do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they 
travel?  I have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was 
taught very early to always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my 
backpack or clothing.  It was amazing the different reaction I 
received as oppo

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









Just keep in mind, Jonathan, how you might feel if you watched an
unprovoked assault on your nation with 3000 innocent Canadians killed by perverts
who just hate you for being Canadians, and then someone said to you with a
smirk, “Well, maybe now you will
try to figure out why they didn’t like you.  You finally got
what you had coming to you.”  You
should expect an angry response to such an evil attitude.  And then you have the NERVE to accuse me
of confusing America with God and an “unhealthy attitude”??? You
are a real piece of liberal work.  Izzy

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
6:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 

Aye thank you Lance,

 

However I am afraid that the message will
fall on deaf ears or else you will be accused of making hateful, disgusting
posts with slurs.  Sigh.  Her posts in the last half hour that I have
been writing this continue in this vein.  It is sad.

 

One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was
missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she has flitted around
discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for
others.  Then when her country’s actions are called into question
her rockets fire and she proceeds to attack in an unchristian manner (and of
course justifies it by saying my manners are bad and that it is sin to question
America
and asks that God forgive my jealousy).  This seems to me to be a very
unhealthy attitude.

 

My opinion is as follows:

It is good to love your country.

It is good to be grateful to your country for
the freedoms, opportunities and safety it provides.

It is good to pray for and support your
leaders.

It is bad to confuse our country with God.

It is bad to confuse prosperity with
blessing.

It is bad when patriotism keeps us from
listening, from being whole.

It is bad to not be able to listen to
criticism.

It is bad to refuse to listen when our
sacred cow is being addressed. 

(note that when I switch to the bad here I
intentionally switch from ‘your’ to ‘our’ in order to
highlight that we are all in this together.  I do not want any one to feel
attacked here.  You may also replace ‘good’ with Christian and
‘bad’ with unchristian.)

 

That being said I do understand that when
our sacred cows are being prodded it is a painful process.  It is often
easier to respond in anger (I know I have in times when my sacred cows have
been poked.  For example, Judy has made many comments on the link between
sin and illness.  I believe her viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and
extremely hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of the
severity.  This is an extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with
chronic illness for the last 16 years.  You should see the posts that I
have drafted in my head in response.  The reason they have never seen the
light of day is because I know it would not be wise to post them.  This is
one of my sacred cows.  What I need to do is to listen to Judy, to really
hear what she is saying without confusing it with the baggage I bring with
it.  For you Izzy perhaps I should concentrate on the devotion and love
you have for your leaders.  I respect your love for them.  What I
question is a love that strikes back in anger and stops conversation, fencing
me off, refusing to listen and learn from other people’s opinions.) 
What I plead and beg of Izzy is to listen to what others have to say, to ask
the tough questions we want to avoid.  If it makes you angry this is often
a sign of some sort of blockage.  It is far too easy to confuse our anger
with righteous anger.  This means becoming vulnerable as the Spirit strips
us of our mis-truths.  In this way we can heal.  In this way even our
countries can heal.

 

Jonathan









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
7:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Follow up: When a sufficient number
(?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and
sift through the reasons why.





 





On my first visit to a Christian
Booksellers meeting (Texas)
I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian
performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in
white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking:
"there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent
visits (California, Colorado,
Atlanta) I
noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country.





 





Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came
to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of
humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another.





 





So, pray for your leaders, be 'good
citizens' but, please don't participate in a

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









So why didn’t you answer my question—I really want
to hear from you that this rumor was false. Izzy

 

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
1:48 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Just two eh? Hardly a
groundswell. Sort of like 'The Mouse that Roared' with Peter Sellers.
   







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 09, 2004 15:31





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



So it is unanimous from the Canadians.  (Why am I not surprised?) So why didn’t
you answer my question—I really want to hear from you that this rumor was
false. Izzy

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
7:03 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Izzy:Read Jonathan's two excellent
posts again. I fear that this 'religious spirit' has clouded yout judgment, at
least when it comes to the US of A.







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 09, 2004 08:45





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



Perhaps only someone who was born and raised in this incredible
nation, with the freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers.  BTW, I heard a rumor that in Canada
it is illegal to READ anything anti-homosexual. 
Is that possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal.  Izzy

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
5:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Follow up: When a sufficient number
(?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and
sift through the reasons why.





 





On my first visit to a Christian
Booksellers meeting (Texas)
I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian
performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in
white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking:
"there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent
visits (California, Colorado,
Atlanta) I
noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country.





 





Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came
to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of
humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another.





 





So, pray for your leaders, be 'good
citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that
this is not of God.. 







- Original Message - 





From: Jonathan Hughes 





To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



My, my, lots of political stews
today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think of America;
it just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into
buildings to get you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to
get the Western world to realize something, not just America).

 

Do you honestly think that Americans are
well thought of outside of your shores?  Why do you think many of them
pretend to be Canadian when they travel?  I have done a lot of traveling
(3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag
somewhere on my backpack or clothing.  It was amazing the different
reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with.  Do you
have any clue as to what your country is accountable for?  Do you have any
grasp of your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark
Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but
vehemently hate you?

 

When one insults President Bush, one
insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him.  Your
logic is ridiculous!  If what you say is true this means that one cannot
critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly
involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they
look like.  I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush).

 

For someone who refused to enter into
theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political arena.  Which
do you care about more?  Which is worth discussion more?  Is it more
important to think rightly about your country or about God?  Do you
realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other nationality)? 
Do you confuse America’s
prosperity with God’s blessing?  Do you realize (even faintly,
c’mon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is
to be unapologetically anti-Christian?  >From some of

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









I believe God still forgives venial sins. Iz

 











 



You ended a sentence with a preposition in spite of your
edumucation.

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









 

OR it could just be the next best thing to a good punch in the
nose. Izzy














To act out a feeling of offense
is a manipulative effort at silencing the opposition.   

A friend

JDavid

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

Just two eh? Hardly a groundswell. Sort of 
like 'The Mouse that Roared' with Peter Sellers.    

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: June 09, 2004 15:31
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false

  So 
  it is unanimous from the Canadians.  
  (Why am I not surprised?) So why didnt you answer my questionI really 
  want to hear from you that this rumor was false. 
  Izzy

  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:03 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false

  Izzy:Read 
  Jonathan's two excellent posts again. I fear that this 'religious spirit' has 
  clouded yout judgment, at least when it comes to the US of 
  A.

- 
Original Message - 

From: ShieldsFamily 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: June 09, 
2004 08:45

Subject: RE: 
    [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs 
false

Perhaps 
only someone who was born and raised in this incredible nation, with the 
freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers.  BTW, I heard a rumor that in 
Canada it is illegal to READ 
anything anti-homosexual.  Is 
that possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal.  Izzy

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:40 
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
    Christ -- the real vs false

Follow up: 
When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to 
become important to sort and sift through the reasons 
why.

On my first 
visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi 
Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center 
stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) 
covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here 
(cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, 
Atlanta) I 
noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country.

Jesus (the 
Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic 
covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation 
set above another.

So, pray for 
your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 
'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God.. 

  - 
  Original Message - 

  From: Jonathan 
  Hughes 

  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: June 07, 
  2004 19:33

  Subject: RE: 
  [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs 
  false

  My, my, lots of 
  political stews today.  My advice: actually listen to what others 
  think of America; it just may be 
  true.  It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get 
  you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to get the 
  Western world to realize something, not just America).

  Do you honestly 
  think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores?  Why 
  do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel?  I 
  have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to 
  always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing.  It 
  was amazing the different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans 
  I traveled with.  Do you have any clue as to what your country is 
  accountable for?  Do you have any grasp of your countrys history (or 
  do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so 
  many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate 
  you?

  When one insults 
  President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire 
  and love him.  Your logic is ridiculous!  If what you say is 
  true this means that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean 
  critiquing everyone that is even faintly involved with them (and by 
  faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they look like.  I 
  doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with 
  Bush).

  For someone who 
  refused to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter 
  the political arena.  Which do you care about more?  Which is 
  worth discussion more?  Is it more important to think rightly about 
  your country or about God?  Do you realize that God is not American 
  (or Canadian or any ot

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









So it is unanimous from the Canadians.  (Why am I not surprised?) So why didn’t
you answer my question—I really want to hear from you that this rumor was
false. Izzy

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
7:03 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Izzy:Read Jonathan's two excellent
posts again. I fear that this 'religious spirit' has clouded yout judgment, at
least when it comes to the US of A.







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 09, 2004 08:45





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



Perhaps only someone who was born and raised in this incredible
nation, with the freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers.  BTW, I heard a rumor that in Canada
it is illegal to READ anything anti-homosexual. 
Is that possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal.  Izzy

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
5:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Follow up: When a sufficient number
(?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and
sift through the reasons why.





 





On my first visit to a Christian
Booksellers meeting (Texas)
I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian
performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in
white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking:
"there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent
visits (California, Colorado,
Atlanta) I
noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country.





 





Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came
to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of
humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another.





 





So, pray for your leaders, be 'good
citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that
this is not of God.. 







- Original Message - 





From: Jonathan Hughes 





To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



My, my, lots of political stews
today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think of America;
it just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into
buildings to get you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to
get the Western world to realize something, not just America).

 

Do you honestly think that Americans are
well thought of outside of your shores?  Why do you think many of them
pretend to be Canadian when they travel?  I have done a lot of traveling
(3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag
somewhere on my backpack or clothing.  It was amazing the different
reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with.  Do you
have any clue as to what your country is accountable for?  Do you have any
grasp of your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark
Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but
vehemently hate you?

 

When one insults President Bush, one
insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him.  Your
logic is ridiculous!  If what you say is true this means that one cannot
critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly
involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they
look like.  I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush).

 

For someone who refused to enter into
theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political arena. 
Which do you care about more?  Which is worth discussion more?  Is it
more important to think rightly about your country or about God?  Do you
realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other nationality)? 
Do you confuse America’s
prosperity with God’s blessing?  Do you realize (even faintly,
c’mon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is
to be unapologetically anti-Christian?  >From some of your previous
posts praising your country and its leaders one would think that you think that
to be American (to agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the
American dream) is to be Christian.

 

Enough politics for me.  Either
change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing the Mediation of
Christ.

 

Jonathan









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 

Lance, Some
Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another ar

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/9/2004 11:41:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

John: Not one of my 'opinions' is inspired. They are just that, opinions. I'd always want for them to be subjected to the severest critique.



Great.  My here is done.  Back to the job site.

David, John

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/9/2004 11:53:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

You ended a sentence with a preposition in spite of your edumucation.


I know AND IT FELT GOOD DOING IT 11

  
jds

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/9/2004 5:58:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she has flitted around discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for others.  Then when her countryâs actions are called into question her rockets fire and she proceeds to attack in an unchristian manner (and of course justifies it by saying my manners are bad and that it is sin to question America and asks that God forgive my jealousy).  This seems to me to be a very unhealthy attitude.



A tad bit on the arrogant side of the ledger, me thinks.  You might not agree with Izzy, being Canadian and all, but her defense of country (her country, not yours) is understandable.   Apparently you think that you should be able to attack anyone's country without the risk of backlash  by those who are "ignorant" of your sense of truth.   

If I decided to go after Cana dah , well, I would expect some spite fire defense from you.  So lets chalk it up to what is natural and normal and leave off the  putdowns.  


John

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




You ended a sentence with a preposition in spite of 
your edumucation.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 09, 2004 14:45
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
  Now, here with this post, I very much 
  agree with Lance.  We (the US) are not a "Christian nation."   
  We are a nation with a whole bunch of Christians.  The religious tenets 
  that formed the foundation of our nation are, without question, being 
  eroded.   And, if the trend does not stop, there will come a time 
  when this nation will become an enemy to the cause of Christ.  We need to 
  be careful wedding the flag and the cross.   And don't get me 
  wrong.  I as red necked as they come when concerns this country  -- 
  but we ARE citizens of another world, not this onesomething I must 
  continually remind myself of.JohnIn a message 
  dated 6/9/2004 4:42:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) 
dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through the 
reasons why.  On my first visit to a 
Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi 
Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center 
stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) 
covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here 
(cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I 
noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country.  Jesus (the Jew) the second 
Adam came to fulfill, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for 
all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above 
another.  So, pray for your leaders, be 
'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I 
believe that this is not of God..

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

Now, here with this post, I very much agree with Lance. We (the US) are not a "Christian nation." We are a nation with a whole bunch of Christians. The religious tenets that formed the foundation of our nation are, without question, being eroded. And, if the trend does not stop, there will come a time when this nation will become an enemy to the cause of Christ. We need to be careful wedding the flag and the cross. And don't get me wrong. I as red necked as they come when concerns this country -- but we ARE citizens of another world, not this onesomething I must continually remind myself of.

John

In a message dated 6/9/2004 4:42:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through the reasons why.
On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country.
Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came to fulfill, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another.
So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God..

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Replying (this time) to: JDavid:Point well made 
and, it didn't even make me angry. 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 09, 2004 14:28
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
  In a message dated 6/9/2004 2:56:04 AM Pacific 
  Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  John: Not one of my 'opinions' is inspired. They are just that, 
opinions. I'd always want for them to be subjected to the severest 
critique.Hope you understood what I 
  was pointing to  --  that opinion is opinion.   the 
  problem with disagreeing on issues of substance (and that is at the heart of 
  the existence of TT ) is that we all tend to get a little testy about the 
  others opinion.   To call Bush "stupid" is, in fact, to insult all 
  those who believe in his leadership and character.  To act out a feeling 
  of offense is a manipulative effort at silencing the opposition.   
  Both sides are wrong, as I see it, at the same time.   Yet both 
  sides speak as if inspired and, therefore, right without and beyond 
  debate.  Learning to disagree with an intelligent emotional bias 
  that is rooted in a caring for the other individual is something we should all 
  share as a point of community on this list.  I believe the Lord in I Co 
  13 put it this way:  love  .  does not seek its own."  
  A 
friendJDavid

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/9/2004 2:56:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

John: Not one of my 'opinions' is inspired. They are just that, opinions. I'd always want for them to be subjected to the severest critique.


Hope you understood what I was pointing to  --  that opinion is opinion.   the problem with disagreeing on issues of substance (and that is at the heart of the existence of TT ) is that we all tend to get a little testy about the others opinion.   To call Bush "stupid" is, in fact, to insult all those who believe in his leadership and character.  To act out a feeling of offense is a manipulative effort at silencing the opposition.   Both sides are wrong, as I see it, at the same time.   Yet both sides speak as if inspired and, therefore, right without and beyond debate.  

Learning to disagree with an intelligent emotional bias that is rooted in a caring for the other individual is something we should all share as a point of community on this list.  I believe the Lord in I Co 13 put it this way:  love  .  does not seek its own."  


A friend

JDavid

[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Judyt:An aside re Deut 28,29. I believe some of 
this has been previously addressed but, would you continue to stone a 
recalcitrant youth? etc. 
Does Jesus' birth,baptism, temptation,  life, 
death, resurrection, ascension, and ongoing Mediation include the subject at 
hand whatsoever?
 
jt: You refer to the Levitical Law 
which the Church no longer practices; not to say that rebellious youths get 
away with anything, but God is the one who takes care of it now.  Before 
they were stoned and killed physically.  Today they are spiritually 
separated and will be just as dead if they do not repent.  Deuteronomy however, teaches us God's ways - The 
way to blessing and/or curses has not changed.  People do not want to 
believe that the iniquity of our ancestors falls on us for so many generations 
until it is repented of and the curse broken but the evidence is there 
because our sickness tells off on us.  There is a more excellent way - 
which is to learn God's Ways and to walk in them.  The alternative is 
to go through life halt sick, and maimed - some even believe the lie that God 
did this to them.  Your view 
of the Mediation of Christ negates the issue of sin.  It is like saying 
"we see" but the sin remains - so No, this would not include the subject 
at hand.

  From: Judy Taylor 
  From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Judy has made many 
  comments on the link between sin and illness.  I believe her viewpoint to 
  be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness 
  regardless of the severity.  
   
  jt: I agree Jonathan 
  that sickness is hurtful and so is sin - it is hurtful to us and everyone 
  around us. Judy is not the one making that connection Jonathan.  Believe 
  it or not it is Biblical. There would be no sickness but for sin and God 
  Himself outlines the blessings that come from obedience and the curses that 
  come through disobedience (which are every sickness and plague that can be 
  named) in Deuteronomy 28 and Deuteronomy 29. Just because noone wants to 
  accept this or talk about it today does not make it 
  invalid.
   
  jonathan: This is an 
  extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with chronic illness for the 
  last 16 years.  You should see the posts that I have drafted in my head 
  in response.  The reason they have never seen the light of day is because 
  I know it would not be wise to post them.  This is one of my sacred 
  cows. 
   
  jt: Not unusual 
  Jonathan; there is hardly a family alive who has not or is not touched by 
  something chronic, either physically or behaviorally, and that inclues me and 
  mine. I am still dealing with my own stuff but I find denial gets one 
  nowhere.  It's good to agree with God because only the truth will 
  make any of us free - experientially free - not just in theoretically 
  free.
   
  Judyt

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Judyt:An aside re Deut 28,29. I believe some of 
this has been previously addressed but, would you continue to stone a 
recalcitrant youth? etc.
 
Does Jesus' birth,baptism, temptation,  life, 
death, resurrection, ascension, and ongoing Mediation include the subject at 
hand whatsoever?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 09, 2004 09:16
  Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ 
  -- the real vs false
  
  From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Judy has made many 
  comments on the link between sin and illness.  I believe her viewpoint to 
  be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness 
  regardless of the severity.  
   
  jt: I agree Jonathan 
  that sickness is hurtful and so is sin - it is hurtful to us and everyone 
  around us. Judy is not the one making that connection Jonathan.  Believe 
  it or not it is Biblical. There would be no sickness but for sin and God 
  Himself outlines the blessings that come from obedience and the curses that 
  come through disobedience (which are every sickness and plague that can be 
  named) in Deuteronomy 28 and Deuteronomy 29. Just because noone wants to 
  accept this or talk about it today does not make it 
  invalid.
   
  jonathan: This is an 
  extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with chronic illness for the 
  last 16 years.  You should see the posts that I have drafted in my head 
  in response.  The reason they have never seen the light of day is because 
  I know it would not be wise to post them.  This is one of my sacred 
  cows. 
   
  jt: Not unusual 
  Jonathan; there is hardly a family alive who has not or is not touched by 
  something chronic, either physically or behaviorally, and that inclues me and 
  mine. I am still dealing with my own stuff but I find denial gets one 
  nowhere.  It's good to agree with God because only the truth will 
  make any of us free - experientially free - not just in theoretically 
  free.
   
  Judyt

[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Judy has made many 
comments on the link between sin and illness.  I believe her viewpoint to 
be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness 
regardless of the severity.  
 
jt: I agree Jonathan 
that sickness is hurtful and so is sin - it is hurtful to us and everyone around 
us. Judy is not the one making that connection Jonathan.  Believe it or not 
it is Biblical. There would be no sickness but for sin and God Himself outlines 
the blessings that come from obedience and the curses that come through 
disobedience (which are every sickness and plague that can be named) in 
Deuteronomy 28 and Deuteronomy 29. Just because noone wants to accept this or 
talk about it today does not make it invalid.
 
jonathan: This is an 
extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with chronic illness for the 
last 16 years.  You should see the posts that I have drafted in my head in 
response.  The reason they have never seen the light of day is because I 
know it would not be wise to post them.  This is one of my sacred 
cows. 
 
jt: Not unusual 
Jonathan; there is hardly a family alive who has not or is not touched by 
something chronic, either physically or behaviorally, and that inclues me and 
mine. I am still dealing with my own stuff but I find denial gets one 
nowhere.  It's good to agree with God because only the truth will make 
any of us free - experientially free - not just in theoretically 
free.
 
Judyt

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Izzy:Read Jonathan's two excellent posts again. I 
fear that this 'religious spirit' has clouded yout judgment, at least when it 
comes to the US of A.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 09, 2004 08:45
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
  
  
  Perhaps 
  only someone who was born and raised in this incredible nation, with the 
  freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers.  BTW, I heard a rumor that in 
  Canada it is illegal to READ 
  anything anti-homosexual.  Is that 
  possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal.  Izzy
   
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:40 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
   
  
  Follow up: When 
  a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become 
  important to sort and sift through the reasons why.
  
   
  
  On my first 
  visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi 
  Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, 
  lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the 
  backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". 
  During subsequent visits (California, 
  Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in 
  your country.
  
   
  
  Jesus (the Jew) 
  the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He 
  did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above 
  another.
  
   
  
  So, pray for 
  your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious 
  spirit'. I believe that this is not of God.. 
  

- 
Original Message - 

From: Jonathan Hughes 


To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Sent: June 07, 
2004 19:33
    
    Subject: RE: 
    [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs 
false

 
My, my, lots of 
political stews today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think 
of America; it just may be 
true.  It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you 
to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to get the Western 
world to realize something, not just America).
 
Do you honestly 
think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores?  Why 
do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel?  I 
have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to 
always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing.  It 
was amazing the different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I 
traveled with.  Do you have any clue as to what your country is 
accountable for?  Do you have any grasp of your countrys history (or 
do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so 
many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate 
you?
 
When one insults 
President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire and 
love him.  Your logic is ridiculous!  If what you say is true this 
means that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean critiquing 
everyone that is even faintly involved with them (and by faintly involved I 
mean someone who knows what they look like.  I doubt you are claiming 
an actual relationship with Bush).
 
For someone who 
refused to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter the 
political arena.  Which do you care about more?  Which is worth 
discussion more?  Is it more important to think rightly about your 
country or about God?  Do you realize that God is not American (or 
Canadian or any other nationality)?  Do you confuse Americas 
prosperity with Gods blessing?  Do you realize (even faintly, cmon 
throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is to be 
unapologetically anti-Christian?  >From some of your previous posts 
praising your country and its leaders one would think that you think that to 
be American (to agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the 
American dream) is to be Christian.
 
Enough politics for 
me.  Either change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing 
the Mediation of Christ.
 
Jonathan




From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of 
ShieldsFamilySent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43 
    PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
Christ -- the real vs false
 
Lance, 
Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant 
Canadian insult. S

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









Aye thank you Lance,

 

However I am afraid that the message will
fall on deaf ears or else you will be accused of making hateful, disgusting
posts with slurs.  Sigh.  Her posts in the last half hour that I have
been writing this continue in this vein.  It is sad.

 

One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was
missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she has flitted around
discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for
others.  Then when her country’s actions are called into question
her rockets fire and she proceeds to attack in an unchristian manner (and of
course justifies it by saying my manners are bad and that it is sin to question
  America and asks that God forgive my jealousy).  This seems to me to be
a very unhealthy attitude.

 

My opinion is as follows:

It is good to love your country.

It is good to be grateful to your country
for the freedoms, opportunities and safety it provides.

It is good to pray for and support your
leaders.

It is bad to confuse our country with God.

It is bad to confuse prosperity with blessing.

It is bad when patriotism keeps us from
listening, from being whole.

It is bad to not be able to listen to
criticism.

It is bad to refuse to listen when our
sacred cow is being addressed. 

(note that when I switch to the bad here I
intentionally switch from ‘your’ to ‘our’ in order to
highlight that we are all in this together.  I do not want any one to feel
attacked here.  You may also replace ‘good’ with Christian and
‘bad’ with unchristian.)

 

That being said I do understand that when
our sacred cows are being prodded it is a painful process.  It is often
easier to respond in anger (I know I have in times when my sacred cows have
been poked.  For example, Judy has made many comments on the link between
sin and illness.  I believe her viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and
extremely hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of the
severity.  This is an extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with
chronic illness for the last 16 years.  You should see the posts that I
have drafted in my head in response.  The reason they have never seen the light
of day is because I know it would not be wise to post them.  This is one
of my sacred cows.  What I need to do is to listen to Judy, to really hear
what she is saying without confusing it with the baggage I bring with it. 
For you Izzy perhaps I should concentrate on the devotion and love you have for
your leaders.  I respect your love for them.  What I question is a
love that strikes back in anger and stops conversation, fencing me off,
refusing to listen and learn from other people’s opinions.)  What I
plead and beg of Izzy is to listen to what others have to say, to ask the tough
questions we want to avoid.  If it makes you angry this is often a sign of
some sort of blockage.  It is far too easy to confuse our anger with
righteous anger.  This means becoming vulnerable as the Spirit strips us
of our mis-truths.  In this way we can heal.  In this way even our
countries can heal.

 

Jonathan









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
7:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Follow up: When a sufficient number
(?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and
sift through the reasons why.





 





On my first visit to a Christian
Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then
well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a
single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I
remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)".
During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION
ABOUNDS in your country.





 





Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came
to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of
humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another.





 





So, pray for your leaders, be 'good
citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that
this is not of God.. 







- Original Message - 





From: Jonathan Hughes 





To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



My, my, lots of political stews
today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into buildings
to get you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to get the Western
world to realize something, not just America).

 

Do you honestly think that Americans are
well thought of outside of your shores?  Why do you think many of them
pretend to be Canadian when they travel?  I have done a lot of traveling
(3 continents) an

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









Perhaps only someone who was born and raised in this incredible
nation, with the freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers.  BTW, I heard a rumor that in Canada it is
illegal to READ anything anti-homosexual. 
Is that possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal.  Izzy

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
5:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Follow up: When a sufficient number
(?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and
sift through the reasons why.





 





On my first visit to a Christian
Booksellers meeting (Texas)
I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian
performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in
white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking:
"there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent
visits (California, Colorado,
Atlanta) I
noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country.





 





Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came
to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of
humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another.





 





So, pray for your leaders, be 'good
citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that
this is not of God.. 







- Original Message - 





From: Jonathan Hughes 





To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



My, my, lots of political stews
today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it
just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into buildings
to get you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to get the
Western world to realize something, not just America).

 

Do you honestly think that Americans are
well thought of outside of your shores?  Why do you think many of them
pretend to be Canadian when they travel?  I have done a lot of traveling
(3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag
somewhere on my backpack or clothing.  It was amazing the different
reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with.  Do you
have any clue as to what your country is accountable for?  Do you have any
grasp of your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark
Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but
vehemently hate you?

 

When one insults President Bush, one
insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him.  Your
logic is ridiculous!  If what you say is true this means that one cannot
critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly
involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they
look like.  I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush).

 

For someone who refused to enter into
theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political arena. 
Which do you care about more?  Which is worth discussion more?  Is it
more important to think rightly about your country or about God?  Do you
realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other nationality)? 
Do you confuse America’s
prosperity with God’s blessing?  Do you realize (even faintly,
c’mon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is
to be unapologetically anti-Christian?  >From some of your previous
posts praising your country and its leaders one would think that you think that
to be American (to agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the
American dream) is to be Christian.

 

Enough politics for me.  Either
change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing the Mediation of
Christ.

 

Jonathan









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 

Lance, Some
Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant Canadian
insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his academic
credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to insult him
because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically
pro-American).  When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone
else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for
our nation.  Perhaps Torrance
hasn’t taught you any better manners than that? Izzy

 













From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir





  From someone who is likely to re-elect a
sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for
four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin
'em.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people 
(countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through 
the reasons why.
 
On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers 
meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known 
Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, 
regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember 
thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent 
visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your 
country.
 
Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came 
to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of 
humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another.
 
So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, 
please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of 
God.. 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Jonathan Hughes 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
  
  
  My, my, lots of 
  political stews today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think 
  of America; it just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes 
  into buildings to get you to realize something.  (By the way I think it 
  was to get the Western world to realize something, not just 
  America).
   
  Do you honestly think 
  that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores?  Why do you 
  think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel?  I have done 
  a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a 
  Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing.  It was amazing the 
  different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled 
  with.  Do you have any clue as to what your country is accountable 
  for?  Do you have any grasp of your countrys history (or do you think 
  like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not 
  only dislike you but vehemently hate you?
   
  When one insults 
  President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire and 
  love him.  Your logic is ridiculous!  If what you say is true this 
  means that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone 
  that is even faintly involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean 
  someone who knows what they look like.  I doubt you are claiming an 
  actual relationship with Bush).
   
  For someone who 
  refused to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter the 
  political arena.  Which do you care about more?  Which is worth 
  discussion more?  Is it more important to think rightly about your 
  country or about God?  Do you realize that God is not American (or 
  Canadian or any other nationality)?  Do you confuse Americas prosperity 
  with Gods blessing?  Do you realize (even faintly, cmon throw me a bone 
  here) that being unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically 
  anti-Christian?  >From some of your previous posts praising your 
  country and its leaders one would think that you think that to be American (to 
  agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the American dream) is to 
  be Christian.
   
  Enough politics for 
  me.  Either change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing 
  the Mediation of Christ.
   
  Jonathan
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of 
  ShieldsFamilySent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43 
  PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
   
  Lance, Some 
  Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant 
  Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his 
  academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to 
  insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically 
  pro-American).  When you insult President Bush, you insult me and 
  everyone else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to 
  prayer for our nation.  Perhaps Torrance hasnt taught you any better 
  manners than that? Izzy
   
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Lance 
  Muir
  
    From someone who is likely 
  to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 
  'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse 
  apples' but eatin 'em.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




John: Not one of my 'opinions' is inspired. They 
are just that, opinions. I'd always want for them to be subjected to the 
severest critique.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 08, 2004 21:12
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
  In a message dated 6/8/2004 9:25:33 AM Pacific 
  Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Izzy:Sorry, God did not put GWB into office you did.An opinion no more inspired 
  than Izzy's.John

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

2004-06-08 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 6/8/2004 10:07:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Surprise, my furriner brother!  You have no idea just how often I have done that, mostly with posts from you and G.  It's not that I have anything against y'all.  I just cannot comprehend how either of you think. 
 Do you by any chance write poetry?
Terry


Terry's high regard for poetry is evident with this timely question.   :)

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

2004-06-08 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 6/8/2004 9:25:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Izzy:Sorry, God did not put GWB into office you did.


An opinion no more inspired than Izzy's.

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Terry: Sorry, Terry what I said IS what the Bible 
teaches (as I see it). 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 08, 2004 13:28
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
  Lance Muir wrote:
  





Izzy:Sorry, God did not put GWB into office you 
did.=Sorry 
  Lance.  That is not what the Bible teaches.  Our votes are just a 
  formality.Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





Lance Muir wrote:

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  Izzy:Sorry, God did not put GWB into
office you did.

=
Sorry Lance.  That is not what the Bible teaches.  Our votes are just a
formality.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Terry:I do not but, it is my understanding that G 
does. No doubt 'bout it though 3 out 5 of my posts are unnecessarily difficult 
to read. 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 08, 2004 13:06
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
  
  
 
Terry:Why not take the advice to you gave to 
me? Just delete and, move on to matters that you estimate to be worthy of 
placing fingers on a keyboard?
 
LanceSurprise, 
  my furriner brother!  You have no idea just how often I have done that, 
  mostly with posts from you and G.  It's not that I have anything against 
  y'all.  I just cannot comprehend how either of you think.  Do 
  you by any chance write poetry?Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false







   
  Terry:Why not take the advice to you
gave to me? Just delete and, move on to matters that you estimate to be
worthy of placing fingers on a keyboard?
   
  Lance


Surprise, my furriner brother!  You have no idea just how often I have
done that, mostly with posts from you and G.  It's not that I have
anything against y'all.  I just cannot comprehend how either of you
think. 
 Do you by any chance write poetry?
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

Izzy:Sorry, God did not put GWB into office you 
did.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: June 08, 2004 10:55
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false

  Lance, 
  Perhaps Powell or Cheyney would have made better 
  Presidents in some way or another. But God knew that we would need a President 
  with the (male apparatus) to make war on Terrorism.  Thanks for the comments. 

  BTW, 
  I like Bush better than either of them.  
  But GW is not nearly Conservative enough for me.  Often the policies he pushes through 
  upset me.  But I'm not one to miss 
  the forest for the trees.  
  Izzy

  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Lance 
  MuirSent: Tuesday, June 08, 
  2004 2:48 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false

  Izzy: Just an 
  observation based on public performance.You made it an insult. Powell or 
  Cheyney would have made better Presidents than Bush. 

  Just a note on 
  Chretien (our now former Prime Minister):He probably couldn't have held his 
  own in any debate with your current President.

  Lance

From: ShieldsFamily 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: June 07, 
2004 15:43

Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs 
false

Lance, 
Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant 
Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his 
academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to 
insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are 
unapologetically pro-American).  
When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone else who 
admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for our 
nation.  Perhaps Torrance hasnt taught 
you any better manners than that? Izzy

From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Lance Muir

  From someone who is 
likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to 
be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been 
examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

2004-06-08 Thread ShieldsFamily









Oh, did Rush say that, too? (Happy thought!) :-) Izzy

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 2:51
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Izzy:Too much Rush.







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 07, 2004 16:03





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



Lance, your political astuteness is dwarfed only by your humility.
Izzy

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 9:34
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 

Lance Muir wrote:





J&T: How 'bout a website hosted by y'all. People would
write outlining the 'teaching' in question. Then, kind of like Ebert &
Roeper, (thumbs up/down) you could pronounce on it to the benefit of the
world at large. Or, on a scale of 1-5 horse apples, you could work with a
picture of a horse dispensing apples on the aforementioned 'teaching'





 





Have I ever mentioned what a privilege it is for me
(us?) to read the musings of two such Bibically informed (?)persons as
yourselves? 



===
What a great idea!  Send me your tithes and offerings and we will get
right on it.  If everyone else is making a buck on Jesus, we might as well
jump in too.
Terry :-)

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

2004-06-08 Thread ShieldsFamily









Lance, Perhaps Powell or Cheyney would
have made better Presidents in some way or another. But God knew that we would
need a President with the (male apparatus) to make war on Terrorism.  Thanks for the comments. 

 

BTW, I like Bush better than either of them.  But GW is not nearly Conservative enough for
me.  Often the policies he pushes through
upset me.  But I'm not one to miss the
forest for the trees.  Izzy

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 2:48
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 



Izzy: Just an observation based on
public performance.You made it an insult. Powell or Cheyney would have made
better Presidents than Bush. 





 





Just a note on Chretien (our now
former Prime Minister):He probably couldn't have held his own in any debate
with your current President.





 





Lance







From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: June 07, 2004 15:43





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





 



Lance, Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be
another arrogant Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President
Bush, with his academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who
choose to insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are
unapologetically pro-American).  When you
insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone else who admires and loves
him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for our nation.  Perhaps Torrance
hasn’t taught you any better manners than that? Izzy

 













From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir







  From someone who is likely to re-elect a
sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for
four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin
'em.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Judyt:There are times when you amaze me! How you 
can, on occasion, misunderstand everything I've written, is simply beyond me. 
Have a good day.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 08, 2004 09:46
  Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ 
  -- the real vs false
  
  From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Judyt: Happily Judy, the world is larger than 
  your perception or familiarity.
   
  jt: The philosophy of my 
  unbelieving family overseas exactly Lance and this is one of the reasons why I 
  left at such a young age; they literally reverence broadmindedness.. and have 
  the same liberal views about religion and the USA and it's leadership as you 
  and Jonathan articulate here on the TT list.
   
  'Spin' Judy? We've all got a 'spin'! That is the 
  interpretation that we place on the Scriptures we quote. As you quote more 
  than most I'd suggest we're privy to your 'spin' more than most.
   
  jt: No Lance, we don't all have 
  spin.  Spin is a reality out there in the world where politics is the art 
  of compromise and manipulation is the name of the game.  I don't play 
  that game anymore but I recognize it because I've been there and done 
  that.  I am now living another reality in which there is a "spirit of 
  Truth" and a "spirit of error" - I have found the pearl of great 
  price.
   
  'Fool' Judy? I don't think that Terry is a fool 
  any more than I'd think it of you.
   
  jt: Then why did you speak it of 
  him or George W. Bush (whichever one it was intended for)?  Do you 
  realize that "by our words we are justified, and by our words we are 
  condemned?"
   
  My perception (though it's God's and not mine 
  that matters) of you (and Terry) is: faithful servants of our Lord who operate, largely, within a biblicist and fundamentalist 
  framework. It's a comfortable though somewhat restrictive and moralistic way 
  of thinking and speaking. But, if it 'works' for you then keep at 
  it.
   
  jt: Would you also 
  say that the Lord has other "faithful servants" who operate outside of a 
  basic Biblical framework and who are loose and immoral in their way of 
  thinking and speaking Lance?  
  
  
  
From: 
Judy 
Taylor 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: June 08, 2004 08:07
Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
Christ -- the real vs false

Lance Muir wrote to Terry:
My hero is neither. From one 'leading authority' to another allow me to suggest that you check out TFT. He's 
considered  by some, to be the 
leading theologian in the English speaking world for the 20 
century.
 
jt: So? Who are these "some?" 
They must not be well known or read because I had never heard of TFT 
until you introduced him on TT - also what does this have to do with 
anything since TFT adds a different spin to the Word of Truth? 
Jesus is the one building His Church.

From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid 
fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd 
say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
 
jt: Just like your mentor you don't take Jesus' 
words seriously do you Lance?  What does Jesus say about calling your 
brother "Raca!" (Matthew 5:22) Referring to a professing believer as "stupid or fool" is the same 
thing. We are told in Romans 13:1 and other places that God lifts up 
and God brings down.  Our calling as believers is to "pray for them" 
rather than express uninformed opinions about them lest like Job (see Job 
38:2) we be called on the carpet and confronted for our own sin of 
darkening counsel by words without knowledge.
When one's opinions function with the vacuity that yours do I read 
them with a smile. I don't need to hit delete.  
 
jt: There you go again Lance -  I see the 
truth of God coming from Terry in a spirit of 
  love.

[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

2004-06-08 Thread Judy Taylor




From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Judyt: Happily Judy, the world is larger than your 
perception or familiarity.
 
jt: The philosophy of my unbelieving 
family overseas exactly Lance and this is one of the reasons why I left at such 
a young age; they literally reverence broadmindedness.. and have the same 
liberal views about religion and the USA and it's leadership as you and Jonathan 
articulate here on the TT list.
 
'Spin' Judy? We've all got a 'spin'! That is the 
interpretation that we place on the Scriptures we quote. As you quote more than 
most I'd suggest we're privy to your 'spin' more than most.
 
jt: No Lance, we don't all have 
spin.  Spin is a reality out there in the world where politics is the art 
of compromise and manipulation is the name of the game.  I don't play that 
game anymore but I recognize it because I've been there and done that.  I 
am now living another reality in which there is a "spirit of Truth" and a 
"spirit of error" - I have found the pearl of great price.
 
'Fool' Judy? I don't think that Terry is a fool any 
more than I'd think it of you.
 
jt: Then why did you speak it of him 
or George W. Bush (whichever one it was intended for)?  Do you 
realize that "by our words we are justified, and by our words we are 
condemned?"
 
My perception (though it's God's and not mine that 
matters) of you (and Terry) is: faithful servants of our Lord who operate, largely, within a biblicist and fundamentalist 
framework. It's a comfortable though somewhat restrictive and moralistic way of 
thinking and speaking. But, if it 'works' for you then keep at 
it.
 
jt: Would you also 
say that the Lord has other "faithful servants" who operate outside of a 
basic Biblical framework and who are loose and immoral in their way of thinking 
and speaking Lance?  



  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 08, 2004 08:07
  Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ 
  -- the real vs false
  
  Lance Muir wrote to Terry:
  My hero is neither. From one 'leading authority' to another allow me to suggest that you check out TFT. He's 
  considered  by some, to be the leading 
  theologian in the English speaking world for the 20 century.
   
  jt: So? Who are these "some?" 
  They must not be well known or read because I had never heard of TFT 
  until you introduced him on TT - also what does this have to do with 
  anything since TFT adds a different spin to the Word of Truth? Jesus 
  is the one building His Church.
  
  From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid 
  fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say 
  you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
   
  jt: Just like your mentor you don't take Jesus' words 
  seriously do you Lance?  What does Jesus say about calling your brother 
  "Raca!" (Matthew 5:22) Referring to a 
  professing believer as "stupid or fool" is the same thing. We are told in 
  Romans 13:1 and other places that God lifts up and God brings down.  
  Our calling as believers is to "pray for them" rather than express uninformed 
  opinions about them lest like Job (see Job 38:2) we be called on the carpet 
  and confronted for our own sin of darkening counsel by words 
  without knowledge.
  When one's opinions function with the vacuity that yours do I read 
  them with a smile. I don't need to hit delete.  
   
  jt: There you go again Lance -  I see the truth 
  of God coming from Terry in a spirit of 
love.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Terry:Thanks for illustrating biblicism and fundamentalism in one fell 
swoop. 
 
No indeed, I wouldn't think that you would wish to 
read TFT any further than you have. As you've misread him so far its 
probably best to leave well enough (bad enough?) alone. 
 
JUST A NOTE AS I TRUST THAT SOME FURTHER REAL 
CONVERSATION MIGHT TAKE PLACE. YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE READ/AGREED WITH/DISAGREED 
WITH OR, EVEN HAVE HEARD OF TFT IN ORDER TO SERVE GOD WELL AND FAITHFULLY FOR 
THE REST OF YOUR LIVES.
WERE YOU TO DISCOVER IN RETROSPECT THAT HE DID 
INDEED SPEAK ACCURATELY OF GOD AND THE GOSPEL YOU STILL DON'T NEED TO HAVE KNOWN 
THAT.
 
Terry:Why not take the advice to you gave to me? 
Just delete and, move on to matters that you estimate to be worthy of placing 
fingers on a keyboard?
 
Lance

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 08, 2004 08:33
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  In a message dated 6/7/2004 6:27:06 AM Pacific Daylight 
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If it offends you to hear that (in my opinion) part of what 
  Torrance is serving as meat is in reality nothing more than horse apples, 
  I suggest you learn to poke the delete key at least once.  This is a 
  discussion group,you know.. TerryAnything 
specific in mind, 
  Terry?John>From 
  what little I have read, I get a picture of God painted by Torrance.  In 
  this picture we have a creator wringing His hands and desperatly hoping that 
  everyone will see the light.  A God who, even though He condemns a person 
  to eternal torment, still loves that person deeply and is all broken up about 
  losing one of His creations.  Torrance is on target in some areas, but 
  this one dimension diety negates anything else he has to say that would 
  interest me.  The God I know, knew from the get go that most would be 
  lost. He is not surprised and is not mourning.  If He hates sin, by 
  extention He must at some point hate the unrepentant sinner, or He would 
  simply remove the penalty for unrightessness instead of consigning said sinner 
  to eternal damnation.  Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

Judyt: Happily Judy, the world is larger than your
perception or familiarity.
'Spin' Judy? We've all got a 'spin'! That is the
interpretation that we place on the Scriptures we quote. As you quote more than
most I'd suggest we're privy to your 'spin' more than most.
'Fool' Judy? I don't think that Terry is a fool any
more than I'd think it of you.
My perception (though it's God's and not mine that
matters) of you (and Terry) is: faithful servants of our Lord who operate,
largely, within a biblicist and fundamentalist framework. It's a comfortable
though somewhat restrictive and moralistic way of thinking and speaking. But, if
it 'works' for you then keep at it.
Lance

- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: June 08, 2004 08:07
Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ
-- the real vs false

Lance Muir wrote to Terry:
My hero is neither. From one 'leading authority' to another allow me to suggest that you check out TFT. He's
considered by some, to be the leading
theologian in the English speaking world for the 20 century.
jt: So? Who are these "some?"
They must not be well known or read because I had never heard of TFT
until you introduced him on TT - also what does this have to do with
anything since TFT adds a different spin to the Word of Truth? Jesus
is the one building His Church.

From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid
fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say
you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
jt: Just like your mentor you don't take Jesus' words
seriously do you Lance? What does Jesus say about calling your brother
"Raca!" (Matthew 5:22) Referring to a
professing believer as "stupid or fool" is the same thing. We are told in
Romans 13:1 and other places that God lifts up and God brings down.
Our calling as believers is to "pray for them" rather than express uninformed
opinions about them lest like Job (see Job 38:2) we be called on the carpet
and confronted for our own sin of darkening counsel by words
without knowledge.
When one's opinions function with the vacuity that yours do I read
them with a smile. I don't need to hit delete.
jt: There you go again Lance - I see the truth
of God coming from Terry in a spirit of
love.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 6/7/2004 7:42:45 AM Pacific
Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
  I take offense and find it a bit smug of you to make the
comment above. It 
is easy to sit in your armchair, far removed from the action, and call 
someone stupid. Bush has had a tough row to hoe, and I think he has
done 
better than most others would have. I shudder to think how 9/11 and the
days 
that followed would have been handled by Al Gore, or, heaven forbid, by
John 
Kerry!!! Call me what you will...I will take a Bush over a Gore or a
Kerry 
ANY day.

Perry, not as moderator
  
  
  
What is a fundalmentalist, anyway?  I can tell you one thing (and then
I will keep quiet on politics), the reason I will never again vote
Democrat has everything to do with the fact that this political party
stands for absolutely nothing that anyone (Christian) on this list
stands for in terms of moral imperative and political freedoms.   Do we
realize that the people who want to compromise with the Jihad Muslims
of this world, the liberal left, are the very people the Jihad Muslims
dispise the most because of their gross immorality??!!!   Bush has
finally said, you have killed well over 4300 of our people over the
last 17 years  -- and enough is enough.   We had just finished 8 years
with a President who literally governed with his pants down during
office hours,  a president who had made the decision to cut the
military, hoping to live and let live  --  and they came after us
anyway.   9-11 was almost entirely planned on Clinton's watch, not
Bush's.   
  
Let's not forget, that Reagan one day told Kadafy, stop training the
hijackers.   Kadafy paid no attention, and Reagan sent several F14's,
bombed Kadafy's home, killed one of his sons and forced a very gutless
Omar into a five year exile.  Standing in circles with arms intertwined
and singing "Hands Across the Ocean" will get us all killed.   And
anyone who knows anything about bullies knows that I speak the truth.  
  
J Smithson  --  back on the wagon
  
  Well said. A big amen.
  
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 6/7/2004 6:27:06 AM Pacific
Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
  If it offends you to hear that (in my opinion) part of
what Torrance is serving as meat is in reality nothing more than horse
apples, I suggest you learn to poke the delete key at least once.  This
is a discussion group,you know.. 
Terry
  
  
  
Anything specific in mind, Terry?
  
John

>From what little I have read, I get a picture of God painted by
Torrance.  In this picture we have a creator wringing His hands and
desperatly hoping that everyone will see the light.  A God who, even
though He condemns a person to eternal torment, still loves that person
deeply and is all broken up about losing one of His creations. 
Torrance is on target in some areas, but this one dimension diety
negates anything else he has to say that would interest me.  
The God I know, knew from the get go that most would be lost. He is not
surprised and is not mourning.  If He hates sin, by extention He must
at some point hate the unrepentant sinner, or He would simply remove
the penalty for unrightessness instead of consigning said sinner to
eternal damnation.  
Terry

[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

2004-06-08 Thread Judy Taylor

Lance Muir wrote to Terry:
My hero is neither. From one 'leading authority' to another allow me to suggest that you check out TFT. He's considered
by some, to be the leading theologian in the
English speaking world for the 20 century.
jt: So? Who are these "some?" They
must not be well known or read because I had never heard of TFT until you
introduced him on TT - also what does this have to do with anything
since TFT adds a different spin to the Word of Truth? Jesus is the
one building His Church.

From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid
fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say
you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
jt: Just like your mentor you don't take Jesus' words
seriously do you Lance? What does Jesus say about calling your brother
"Raca!" (Matthew 5:22) Referring to a professing
believer as "stupid or fool" is the same thing. We are told in Romans
13:1 and other places that God lifts up and God brings down. Our
calling as believers is to "pray for them" rather than express uninformed
opinions about them lest like Job (see Job 38:2) we be called on the carpet and
confronted for our own sin of darkening counsel by words without
knowledge.
When one's opinions function with the vacuity that yours do I read them
with a smile. I don't need to hit delete.
jt: There you go again Lance - I see the truth of
God coming from Terry in a spirit of love.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

Izzy:Too much Rush.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: June 07, 2004 16:03
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false

  Lance, 
  your political astuteness is dwarfed only by your humility. 
  Izzy

  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Monday, June 07, 2004 9:34 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false

  Lance Muir wrote:

  J&T: How 'bout a website hosted by y'all. People 
  would write outlining the 'teaching' in question. Then, kind of like Ebert 
  & Roeper, (thumbs up/down) you could pronounce on it to the benefit 
  of the world at large. Or, on a scale of 1-5 horse apples, you could work with 
  a picture of a horse dispensing apples on the aforementioned 
  'teaching'

  Have I ever mentioned what a privilege it is for me 
  (us?) to read the musings of two such Bibically informed (?)persons as 
  yourselves? 
  ===What 
  a great idea!  Send me your tithes and offerings and we will get right on 
  it.  If everyone else is making a buck on Jesus, we might as well jump in 
  too.Terry :-)

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Izzy: Just an observation based on public 
performance.You made it an insult. Powell or Cheyney would have made better 
Presidents than Bush. 
 
Just a note on Chretien (our now former Prime 
Minister):He probably couldn't have held his own in any debate with your current 
President.
 
Lance

  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 07, 2004 15:43
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
  
  
  Lance, 
  Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant 
  Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his 
  academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to 
  insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically 
  pro-American).  When you insult 
  President Bush, you insult me and everyone else who admires and loves him, AND 
  considers him to be an answer to prayer for our nation.  Perhaps Torrance hasnt taught you any better manners 
  than that? Izzy
   
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Lance Muir
  
    From someone who is likely 
  to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 
  'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse 
  apples' but eatin 'em.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/7/2004 5:40:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

It would be hard to make a convincing argument that we are a Christian nation, but people do not fly planes into buildings because we are sinful or arrogant.  They fly planes into buildings because they are stupid.
Terry
 





How do you like them apples, Jonathon?  

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/7/2004 4:39:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

My, my, lots of political stews today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to get the Western world to realize something, not just America).



What do you want to bet the Jihad Muslims want America out of the picture so they can control (eventually) the entire world for their god?   There isn't any other message.  



John

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/7/2004 7:42:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I take offense and find it a bit smug of you to make the comment above. It 
is easy to sit in your armchair, far removed from the action, and call 
someone stupid. Bush has had a tough row to hoe, and I think he has done 
better than most others would have. I shudder to think how 9/11 and the days 
that followed would have been handled by Al Gore, or, heaven forbid, by John 
Kerry!!! Call me what you will...I will take a Bush over a Gore or a Kerry 
ANY day.

Perry, not as moderator


What is a fundalmentalist, anyway?  I can tell you one thing (and then I will keep quiet on politics), the reason I will never again vote Democrat has everything to do with the fact that this political party stands for absolutely nothing that anyone (Christian) on this list stands for in terms of moral imperative and political freedoms.   Do we realize that the people who want to compromise with the Jihad Muslims of this world, the liberal left, are the very people the Jihad Muslims dispise the most because of their gross immorality??!!!   Bush has finally said, you have killed well over 4300 of our people over the last 17 years  -- and enough is enough.   We had just finished 8 years with a President who literally governed with his pants down during office hours,  a president who had made the decision to cut the military, hoping to live and let live  --  and they came after us anyway.   9-11 was almost entirely planned on Clinton's watch, not Bush's.   

Let's not forget, that Reagan one day told Kadafy, stop training the hijackers.   Kadafy paid no attention, and Reagan sent several F14's, bombed Kadafy's home, killed one of his sons and forced a very gutless Omar into a five year exile.  Standing in circles with arms intertwined and singing "Hands Across the Ocean" will get us all killed.   And anyone who knows anything about bullies knows that I speak the truth.  

J Smithson  --  back on the wagon

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/7/2004 7:24:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

J&T: How 'bout a website hosted by y'all. People would write outlining the 'teaching' in question. Then, kind of like Ebert &Roeper, (thumbs up/down) you could pronounce on it to the benefit of the world at large. Or, on a scale of 1-5 horse apples, you could work with a picture of a horse dispensing apples on the aforementioned 'teaching'
  

Not to take sides, here, but this is funny.  Every keep smiling.

JD Smithers

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/7/2004 6:27:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

If it offends you to hear that (in my opinion) part of what Torrance is serving as meat is in reality nothing more than horse apples, I suggest you learn to poke the delete key at least once.  This is a discussion group,you know.. 
Terry


Anything specific in mind, Terry?

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

In a message dated 6/7/2004 2:54:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I wouldn't want to be trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance said" would you??


I am currently reading Torrence.   So far there is nothing in his worded ministry that tells me he is of the Devil.   Whether I agree or disagree with Torrence on any of several issues, has nothing to do with the notion that he is a discisple  ---  barnyard surplus and all  (an illustion to Terrys post).  What Torrence has done for me to this point in time is this; he has given me the motivation to start thinking again.   In the end, my "theology" will reflect something of Torrence as well as the philosphy of  the manifested God in scripture, David Brooks Smithson, Charlie Frayer, Jeff Mabee, Tim Howard, Lance Muir, JD Flanagin, Carl Ketcherside,  Bill Taylor,  Terry Whathisname,  and, perhaps, some of my own thinking.  

John Smithsonian

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









Jonathan, I have never heard of any American
pretending to be a Canadian.  I
would rather travel as a road apple, which is what I think of your disgusting
hateful post.  How can you think
that people flew planes into the World
 Trade Center
“to get us to realize something”?  What would that be—how evil people are who hate America??? Have you
taken into account the enormous generosity America has had towards other
backwards countries (such as your own)? Have you considered how many of the
world’s Christian ministries are American? How many Americans spew venom against
their neighbor like Canadians do? You have returned hatred for kindness. I
count it all up to jealousy.  May
God forgive you all for it.  It explains your weird, liberal (everyone
is saved no matter what they do) theology completely. You can keep it. Izzy

 

PS I don’t “argue” doctrine, but I do state what
I believe, if you haven’t noticed. 
I have not chosen to argue politics—just to defend my
country.  Why should I have to do
that with other “Christians”?

 

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 5:33
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 

My, my, lots of political stews
today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it
just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into buildings
to get you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to get the
Western world to realize something, not just America).

 

Do you honestly think that Americans are
well thought of outside of your shores?  Why do you think many of them
pretend to be Canadian when they travel?  I have done a lot of traveling
(3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag
somewhere on my backpack or clothing.  It was amazing the different
reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with.  Do you
have any clue as to what your country is accountable for?  Do you have any
grasp of your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark
Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but
vehemently hate you?

 

When one insults President Bush, one
insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him.  Your
logic is ridiculous!  If what you say is true this means that one cannot
critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly
involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they
look like.  I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush).

 

For someone who refused to enter into
theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political arena. 
Which do you care about more?  Which is worth discussion more?  Is it
more important to think rightly about your country or about God?  Do you
realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other nationality)? 
Do you confuse America’s
prosperity with God’s blessing?  Do you realize (even faintly,
c’mon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is
to be unapologetically anti-Christian?  >From some of your previous
posts praising your country and its leaders one would think that you think that
to be American (to agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the
American dream) is to be Christian.

 

Enough politics for me.  Either
change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing the Mediation of
Christ.

 

Jonathan









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 

Lance, Some Americans
(myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant Canadian insult.
Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his academic
credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to insult him
because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically
pro-American).  When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone
else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for
our nation.  Perhaps Torrance
hasn’t taught you any better manners than that? Izzy

 













From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir





  From someone who is likely to re-elect a
sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for
four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin
'em.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





Jonathan Hughes wrote:

  
  
  
  
  My, my, lots
of political stews
today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it
just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into
buildings
to get you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to get the
Western world to realize something, not just America).
  


It would be hard to make a convincing argument that we are a Christian
nation, but people do not fly planes into buildings because we are
sinful or arrogant.  They fly planes into buildings because they are
stupid.
Terry

[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Jonathan:
What is your problem?  Are you a Canadian 
obsessing about the US, or an American with a fabricated 
personality?
No point spending time praying for the countries of the 
world when ones own heart is in such sorry shape because "when we regard 
iniquity in our heart the Lord does not hear us".
 
I'm glad you've had the opportunity to travel but 
wonder what kind of circles you move in. When people harbor dislike and/or 
vehement hatred toward the US, that is their sin.
 
As for your 10 point list; most are irrelevent. I went 
to the Operation World website and have yet to find a country without any 
denominational Christians as well as the rcc; so whatever flavor you want is 
already there and some of those countries are sending missionaries over here. 
I've met some of them.  Why would you think the church responsible to 
feed the hungry of the world?  The example we have in the book of Acts is 
the church taking care of the church. The ministry of Jesus is outlined in 
Isaiah 58.. those who represent Him are supposed to be doing His works like 
healing sick people and casting out devils. Putting the shamans and witch 
doctors out of business.  How are the history of evangelism and German 
theologians relevant to doing the works of Jesus and what were the "Dark 
Ages" if they were'nt dark?
 
 
From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
My, my, lots of 
political stews today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think of 
America; it just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into 
buildings to get you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to 
get the Western world to realize something, not just 
America).

 
Do you honestly think 
that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores?  Why do you 
think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel?  I have done a 
lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a 
Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing.  It was amazing the 
different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with.  
Do you have any clue as to what your country is accountable for?  Do you 
have any grasp of your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the 
Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but 
vehemently hate you?
 
When one insults 
President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love 
him.  Your logic is ridiculous!  If what you say is true this means 
that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is 
even faintly involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who 
knows what they look like.  I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship 
with Bush).
 
For someone who refused 
to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political 
arena.  Which do you care about more?  Which is worth discussion 
more?  Is it more important to think rightly about your country or about 
God?  Do you realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other 
nationality)?  Do you confuse America’s prosperity with God’s 
blessing?  Do you realize (even faintly, c’mon throw me a bone here) that 
being unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically 
anti-Christian?  >From some of your previous posts praising your country 
and its leaders one would think that you think that to be American (to 
agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the American dream) is to be 
Christian.
 
Enough politics for 
me.  Either change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing the 
Mediation of Christ.
 
Jonathan




From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of 
ShieldsFamilySent: 
Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
Christ -- the real vs false
 
Lance, Some 
Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant Canadian 
insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his academic 
credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to insult him 
because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically 
pro-American).  When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone 
else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for 
our nation.  Perhaps Torrance hasn’t taught you any better manners than 
that? Izzy
 





From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Lance 
Muir

  From someone who is likely to 
re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world 
leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' 
but eatin 'em.

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

2004-06-07 Thread Jonathan Hughes









My, my, lots of political stews
today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into buildings
to get you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to get the
Western world to realize something, not just America).

 

Do you honestly think that Americans are
well thought of outside of your shores?  Why do you think many of them
pretend to be Canadian when they travel?  I have done a lot of traveling (3
continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag somewhere
on my backpack or clothing.  It was amazing the different reaction I
received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with.  Do you have any
clue as to what your country is accountable for?  Do you have any grasp of
your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were
actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate
you?

 

When one insults President Bush, one
insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him.  Your
logic is ridiculous!  If what you say is true this means that one cannot
critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly
involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they
look like.  I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush).

 

For someone who refused to enter into
theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political arena. 
Which do you care about more?  Which is worth discussion more?  Is it
more important to think rightly about your country or about God?  Do you
realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other nationality)? 
Do you confuse America’s prosperity with God’s blessing?  Do you
realize (even faintly, c’mon throw me a bone here) that being
unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically anti-Christian? 
>From some of your previous posts praising your country and its leaders one
would think that you think that to be American (to agree/accept and live under
the Bill of Rights and the American dream) is to be Christian.

 

Enough politics for me.  Either
change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing the Mediation of
Christ.

 

Jonathan









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation
of Christ -- the real vs false



 

Lance, Some
Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant Canadian
insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his academic
credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to insult him
because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically
pro-American).  When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone
else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for
our nation.  Perhaps Torrance hasn’t taught you any better manners
than that? Izzy

 













From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir







  From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere
but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four
more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

Or PM Martin, God forbid. 

-Original Message-
I shudder to think how 9/11 and the days 
that followed would have been handled by Al Gore, or, heaven forbid, by John

Kerry!!! Call me what you will...I will take a Bush over a Gore or a Kerry 
ANY day.

Perry, not as moderator





--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









Lance, Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be
another arrogant Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President
Bush, with his academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who
choose to insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically
pro-American).  When you insult President
Bush, you insult me and everyone else who admires and loves him, AND considers
him to be an answer to prayer for our nation.  Perhaps Torrance hasn’t taught you any better
manners than that? Izzy

 













From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir







  From someone who is likely to re-elect a
sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for
four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin
'em.

RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false









ROFL J Izzy

 











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Terry Clifton

Good morning Lance.  My missive was a question. The question was," Is
your hero a false teacher, or simply ignorant?"(Choose one).   You
apparently overlooked that question mark. It would seem that I have gored your
favorite ox, and now you are calling for us to keep our opinions to
ourselves  uinless we can be nicer to Torrance.  Sorry, but that will not
happen.
  I have been around horses most of my life.  I am one of the world's
leading authorities on horse apples, and when I see horse apples I recognize
them and identify them as what they are. I do not need to study them under a
microscope for days or weeks.
If it offends you to hear that (in my opinion) part of what Torrance is serving as meat is in reality
nothing more than horse apples, I suggest you learn to poke the delete key at
least once.  This is a discussion group,you know.. 
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

2004-06-07 Thread Chris Barr






\o/ !HALALU Yah! 
\o/ 
Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !!
 
It is true that he looks good when compared to Clinton or Kerry ...
 
Looks can be deceiving.
 




Ahava b' 
YahShua













(Love in The 
SAVIOUR)
Baruch 
YHVH,








(Bless The 
LORD)
 Bro. 
Chris


a servant of 
YHVH

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Terry: Pay more attention then. You've missed this 
concerning the 'enlightened' one.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 07, 2004 11:46
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
  Lance Muir wrote:
  

Terry: My hero is neither. From one 'leading 
authority' to another allow me to suggest that you check out TFT. He's 
considered to be, by some, (not by you I know but, then you haven't read 
him) to be the leading theologian in the English speaking world for the 20 
century.
  From someone who is likely to re-elect a 
sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' 
for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but 
eatin 'em.
  When one's opinions function with the 
vacuity that yours do I read them with a smile. I don't need to hit 
delete.  =It 
  is always nice to know that I have managed to give someone a smile.  Hope 
  I brightened your day.As for the election.  I will not be voting FOR 
  anyone.  I will be voting against Kerry.  By the way, what makes you 
  think that Bush is a fundamentalist?  I have not heard him use the great 
  power that the Lord has given him to lead our country in prayer, or to 
  proclaim the abortionists to be murderers, or to beg the citizens to turn from 
  their sin.  It is true that he looks good when compared to Clinton or 
  Kerry, but who doesn't?  As far as I can tell, he is more interested in 
  being a politician than a 
fundamentalist.Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





Lance Muir wrote:

  
  
  
  Terry: My hero is neither. From one
'leading authority' to another allow me to suggest that you check out
TFT. He's considered to be, by some, (not by you I know but, then you
haven't read him) to be the leading theologian in the English speaking
world for the 20 century.
    From someone who is likely to
re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the
'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining
'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
    When one's opinions function with
the vacuity that yours do I read them with a smile. I don't need to hit
delete.  

=
It is always nice to know that I have managed to give someone a smile. 
Hope I brightened your day.
As for the election.  I will not be voting FOR anyone.  I will be
voting against Kerry.  By the way, what makes you think that Bush is a
fundamentalist?  I have not heard him use the great power that the Lord
has given him to lead our country in prayer, or to proclaim the
abortionists to be murderers, or to beg the citizens to turn from their
sin.  It is true that he looks good when compared to Clinton or Kerry,
but who doesn't?  As far as I can tell, he is more interested in being
a politician than a fundamentalist.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





Lance Muir wrote:

  
  
  
  
  J&T: How 'bout a website hosted by y'all. People would write
outlining the 'teaching' in question. Then, kind of like Ebert &
Roeper, (thumbs up/down) you could pronounce on it to the benefit of
the world at large. Or, on a scale of 1-5 horse apples, you could work
with a picture of a horse dispensing apples on the aforementioned
'teaching'
   
  Have I ever mentioned what a privilege it is for me (us?) to
read the musings of two such Bibically informed (?)persons as
yourselves? 

===
What a great idea!  Send me your tithes and offerings and we will get
right on it.  If everyone else is making a buck on Jesus, we might as
well jump in too.
Terry :-)

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

"Not the moderator: Take offence all you like. I'm a bit of a political
junkie. Let's just say that he did well to surround himself with people who
are smart (unlike himself). C'mon Perry, he's all you've got so you've got
to make do the best of a pretty bad lot.
- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: June 07, 2004 10:42
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false


> >Lance wrote to Terry:
> >   From someone who is likely to re-electa sincere but pretty stupid
> >fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years...
>
> I take offense and find it a bit smug of you to make the comment above. It
> is easy to sit in your armchair, far removed from the action, and call
> someone stupid. Bush has had a tough row to hoe, and I think he has done
> better than most others would have. I shudder to think how 9/11 and the
days
> that followed would have been handled by Al Gore, or, heaven forbid, by
John
> Kerry!!! Call me what you will...I will take a Bush over a Gore or a Kerry
> ANY day.
>
> Perry, not as moderator
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: Moderator comment: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

Perry the Moderator: Read him again. I just decided to climb down to where
he'd situated himself. I don't worship Torrance, I just admire his
commentary on the gospel. Terry doesn't and, that's OK by me.
- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: June 07, 2004 10:36
Subject: Moderator comment: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs
false


> >From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> >Terry: My hero is neither. From one 'leading authority' to another allow
me
> >to suggest that you check out TFT. He's considered to be, by some, (not
by
> >you I know but, then you haven't read him) to be the leading theologian
in
> >the English speaking world for the 20 century.
> >   From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid
> >fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years,
I'd
> >say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
> >   When one's opinions function with the vacuity that yours do I read
them
> >with a smile. I don't need to hit delete.
>
>
>Lance, just because Terry has offered a negative opinon of someone you
> admire, please don't debase him as you did in the statement above.
>
> Perry the Moderator
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

2004-06-07 Thread Charles Perry Locke

Lance wrote to Terry:
  From someone who is likely to re-electa sincere but pretty stupid 
fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years...
I take offense and find it a bit smug of you to make the comment above. It 
is easy to sit in your armchair, far removed from the action, and call 
someone stupid. Bush has had a tough row to hoe, and I think he has done 
better than most others would have. I shudder to think how 9/11 and the days 
that followed would have been handled by Al Gore, or, heaven forbid, by John 
Kerry!!! Call me what you will...I will take a Bush over a Gore or a Kerry 
ANY day.

Perry, not as moderator
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought 
to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Moderator comment: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

2004-06-07 Thread Charles Perry Locke

From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Terry: My hero is neither. From one 'leading authority' to another allow me 
to suggest that you check out TFT. He's considered to be, by some, (not by 
you I know but, then you haven't read him) to be the leading theologian in 
the English speaking world for the 20 century.
  From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid 
fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd 
say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
  When one's opinions function with the vacuity that yours do I read them 
with a smile. I don't need to hit delete.

  Lance, just because Terry has offered a negative opinon of someone you 
admire, please don't debase him as you did in the statement above.

Perry the Moderator
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought 
to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




J&T: How 'bout a website hosted by y'all. People would write outlining 
the 'teaching' in question. Then, kind of like Ebert & Roeper, (thumbs 
up/down) you could pronounce on it to the benefit of the world at large. 
Or, on a scale of 1-5 horse apples, you could work with a picture of a horse 
dispensing apples on the aforementioned 'teaching'
 
Have I ever mentioned what a privilege it is for me (us?) to read the 
musings of two such Bibically informed (?)persons as yourselves? 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 07, 2004 10:04
  Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ 
  -- the real vs false
  
  From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  I am not real certain Judy.  I would like to think that the false teacher would have to be deliberately teaching false 
  doctrine to in some way benefit himself instead of the Lord, but that 
  can not cover all the bases. There are some teaching obvious lies that 
  actually believe that they have the truth.  They teach it in good 
  conscience because it is what they have been taught.  Still, they are 
  false teachers.  
   
  jt:  False teachers are discussed in 2 Peter 2 
  vs.9 says "The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, 
  and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished; but chiefly 
  them that walk after the flesh..[] and vs.17 describes them as wells 
  without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest to whom the mist of 
  darkness is reserved forever, for when they speak great swelling words of 
  vanity they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness 
  those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise 
  them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption; for of whom a 
  man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage []
   
   
  terryc: How the Lord views this I don't know.  Is it worse to teach 
  that Allah is God than it is to teach that you can pray to Mary or one of the 
  Saints?  Both are false teachings.  How about those who teach 
  prosperity theology?  Are they worse than those who say God chose some to 
  be saved and some to be lost and there is nothing you can do to change 
  it?
   
  jt: I don't know if any of the above are worse 
  than the rest.  I do know that God allows them to test our hearts (see 
  Deuteronomy 13:3-5)
  terryc: Would God send them to Hell as quickly as He would Pagan 
  Wolf?  Personally, I have more respect for Pagan Wolf than I do some of 
  those who teach easy salvation that only requires an agreement that Jesus is 
  Lord but never mentions dying to self and following Him.
   
  jt: I hear you. Pagan Wolf is what he is and doesn't 
  pretend to be anything else.. so we know not to follow him; but those who come 
  in the name of Christ with a false message/teaching are playing with issues of 
  life and death.
  terryc: I think that like most sin, false teaching would have to be 
  the pattern of your life rather than a rare slip up.  At least I hope 
  so.  When I was first saved I was made a Sunday school teacher.  Not 
  because I was knowlegable, but because no one wanted to teach and they needed 
  a warm body.  Looking back, I can see areas where I was dangerously close 
  to being a false teacher, and maybe was one on occasion.  Not that I have 
  attained perfection and am incapable of error now.  I just have a lot 
  more Bible study behind me now than I did then and am less likely to take a 
  wrong turn than I was in those days.  Good thing that God looks at the 
  heart, huh?
   
  jt: You are so right. You shouldn't have been put in 
  that position as a very young believer - at least the intent of your heart was 
  right and so God could eventually shine more light on your path. My walk has 
  been similar but I've always been a learner. I see "false teachers" as setting 
  themselves up as an authority but they teach another way to heaven.. 
  
   
   Judy Taylor wrote:
  
jt: Doesn't Satan always hang his lies 
on truth?  He would not succeed in deceiving without 
it.  The Koran is 50% scripture and every cult uses some mixture 
of twisted scripture in their teachings - they just add and subtract a few 
things.  When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he used 
scripture, presented with his spin of course but it was God's truth he 
perverted.
 
How do his (Satan's) ministers present themselves 
as 'angels of light without God's Word?'  I wouldn't presume to judge 
Torrance the man, that is God's business but it is our responsibility to be 
Berean and judge his public teaching in the light of God's Word.  I 
consider it false enough to be dangerous.  How would you define a false 
teacher Terry?
 
 

Fr

[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I am not real certain Judy.  I would like to think that the false teacher would have to be deliberately teaching false 
doctrine to in some way benefit himself instead of the Lord, but that can 
not cover all the bases. There are some teaching obvious lies that actually 
believe that they have the truth.  They teach it in good conscience because 
it is what they have been taught.  Still, they are false teachers.  

 
jt:  False teachers are discussed in 2 Peter 2 
vs.9 says "The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and 
to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished; but chiefly them 
that walk after the flesh..[] and vs.17 describes them as wells without 
water, clouds that are carried with a tempest to whom the mist of darkness is 
reserved forever, for when they speak great swelling words of vanity they allure 
through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness those that were clean 
escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they 
themselves are the servants of corruption; for of whom a man is overcome, of the 
same is he brought in bondage []
 
 
terryc: How the Lord views this I don't know.  Is it worse to teach 
that Allah is God than it is to teach that you can pray to Mary or one of the 
Saints?  Both are false teachings.  How about those who teach 
prosperity theology?  Are they worse than those who say God chose some to 
be saved and some to be lost and there is nothing you can do to change it?
 
jt: I don't know if any of the above are worse 
than the rest.  I do know that God allows them to test our hearts (see 
Deuteronomy 13:3-5)
terryc: Would God send them to Hell as quickly as He would Pagan 
Wolf?  Personally, I have more respect for Pagan Wolf than I do some of 
those who teach easy salvation that only requires an agreement that Jesus is 
Lord but never mentions dying to self and following Him.
 
jt: I hear you. Pagan Wolf is what he is and doesn't 
pretend to be anything else.. so we know not to follow him; but those who come 
in the name of Christ with a false message/teaching are playing with issues of 
life and death.
terryc: I think that like most sin, false teaching would have to be the 
pattern of your life rather than a rare slip up.  At least I hope so.  
When I was first saved I was made a Sunday school teacher.  Not because I 
was knowlegable, but because no one wanted to teach and they needed a warm 
body.  Looking back, I can see areas where I was dangerously close to being 
a false teacher, and maybe was one on occasion.  Not that I have attained 
perfection and am incapable of error now.  I just have a lot more Bible 
study behind me now than I did then and am less likely to take a wrong turn than 
I was in those days.  Good thing that God looks at the heart, huh?
 
jt: You are so right. You shouldn't have been put in 
that position as a very young believer - at least the intent of your heart was 
right and so God could eventually shine more light on your path. My walk has 
been similar but I've always been a learner. I see "false teachers" as setting 
themselves up as an authority but they teach another way to heaven.. 

 
 Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  jt: Doesn't Satan always hang his lies 
  on truth?  He would not succeed in deceiving without 
  it.  The Koran is 50% scripture and every cult uses some mixture of 
  twisted scripture in their teachings - they just add and subtract a few 
  things.  When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he used 
  scripture, presented with his spin of course but it was God's truth he 
  perverted.
   
  How do his (Satan's) ministers present themselves as 
  'angels of light without God's Word?'  I wouldn't presume to judge 
  Torrance the man, that is God's business but it is our responsibility to be 
  Berean and judge his public teaching in the light of God's Word.  I 
  consider it false enough to be dangerous.  How would you define a false 
  teacher Terry?
   
   
  
  From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Hi Terry, you write:
  It would appear from reading just a fraction of  what Torrance 
  taught, that his teaching is a mixture. Part truth, and part oats that 
  have already been through the horse.  If this is true, does that make him 
  a false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of us?  
  Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Terry: My hero is neither. From one 'leading 
authority' to another allow me to suggest that you check out TFT. He's 
considered to be, by some, (not by you I know but, then you haven't read him) to 
be the leading theologian in the English speaking world for the 20 
century.
  From someone who is likely to re-elect a 
sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for 
four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 
'em.
  When one's opinions function with the 
vacuity that yours do I read them with a smile. I don't need to hit 
delete.  

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 07, 2004 09:26
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of 
  Christ -- the real vs false
  Lance Muir wrote:
  



Hi Terry/Judy:TF a false teacher? This then 
would indicate that you two have read or listened to him with 
sufficient care and thoughtfulness to have distinguished the true from the 
false (according to your own perception of the truth). If circumstances 
could be reversed would this make the two of you 'false 
teachers'?
  This isn't the way to carry on a 
discussion re: the content of one's teaching vis a vis it's faithfulness to 
God and His Gospel.
  As the TV has an on/off switch so I'd 
suggest you opt out of the discussion if you don't wish to scrutinize it 
with 
  care.--Good 
  morning Lance.  My missive was a question. The question was," Is your 
  hero a false teacher, or simply ignorant?"(Choose one).   You apparently 
  overlooked that question mark. It would seem that I have gored your favorite 
  ox, and now you are calling for us to keep our opinions to ourselves  
  uinless we can be nicer to Torrance.  Sorry, but that will not 
  happen.  I have been around horses most of my life.  I am one of 
  the world's leading authorities on horse apples, and when I see horse apples I 
  recognize them and identify them as what they are. I do not need to study them 
  under a microscope for days or weeks.If it offends you to hear that (in my 
  opinion) part of what Torrance is serving as meat is in reality nothing more 
  than horse apples, I suggest you learn to poke the delete key at least 
  once.  This is a discussion group,you know.. 
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false





Lance Muir wrote:

  
  
  
  
  Hi Terry/Judy:TF a false teacher?
This then would indicate that you two have read or listened to him with
sufficient care and thoughtfulness to have distinguished the true from
the false (according to your own perception of the truth). If
circumstances could be reversed would this make the two of you 'false
teachers'?
    This isn't the way to carry on a
discussion re: the content of one's teaching vis a vis it's
faithfulness to God and His Gospel.
    As the TV has an on/off switch so
I'd suggest you opt out of the discussion if you don't wish to
scrutinize it with care.

--
Good morning Lance.  My missive was a question. The question was," Is
your hero a false teacher, or simply ignorant?"(Choose one).   You
apparently overlooked that question mark. It would seem that I have
gored your favorite ox, and now you are calling for us to keep our
opinions to ourselves  uinless we can be nicer to Torrance.  Sorry, but
that will not happen.
  I have been around horses most of my life.  I am one of the world's
leading authorities on horse apples, and when I see horse apples I
recognize them and identify them as what they are. I do not need to
study them under a microscope for days or weeks.
If it offends you to hear that (in my opinion) part of what Torrance is
serving as meat is in reality nothing more than horse apples, I suggest
you learn to poke the delete key at least once.  This is a discussion
group,you know.. 
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Judyt: I saying #2. No, no, no don't flee to the 
'dark ages' as an excuse. Look in your church. Look in your neighborhood. Look 
in your state. Look in your country. Look in your world. Now, now, now! All of 
this is happening now. Just how uninformed are you, Judy? Honestly, if you truly 
don't know that this is so then, I need to give you a 'pass' on such such 
matters..

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 07, 2004 08:42
  Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ 
  -- the real vs false
  
  You said all that to say what Lance? That the wisdom 
  of scripture/Bible is unreliable or that people (genuine believing Christians 
  IYO) are hopelessly sinful and ignorant?  I would point out that the 
  Church was into apostasy by the 2nd century and that most of what you mention 
  below took place during the dark ages when God's truth was chained to an 
  apostate pulpit - and people walked in what they were told by the magisterium 
  of an apostate religious system. We are presently living in a new 
  day.
   
  From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Judyt:Perhaps you are, Judy. People who believed 
  that the earth was flat (with Bible to support it); people who believed the 
  sun revolved around the earth (with Bible to support it), people who believed 
  that slavery was good (with Bible to support it); people who believed that 
  women are chattel (with Bible to support it) exemplified the sort of 
  'certainty' that you do about most matters 'Biblical'. PS read genuine 
  believing Christians' for the word 'people' 
  
From: Judy Taylor 
From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Judyt:Do you honestly believe, even for a 
nanosecond, that any one who reads him thinks like that?  I recognize that 'cheap shots' are made by all on TT 
from time to time but, often they have some basis in fact. If you've never received an 'assist' in your perception of 
God and the Gospel by a human being then, praise God! 'cause you're an 
anomally. 
 
jt: I don't remember ever saying 
that I've never sat under any ministry or received teaching from anyone. To 
the contrary - this is how I have learned (the hard way) to be responsible 
to evaluate everything I read/hear in the light of God's Word especially 
today since there is more divination, apostasy, and false teaching out there 
now than there has ever been in the history of the Church. I do not take 
cheap shots Lance, I am as serious about this as I can be.
 

  From: Terry Clifton 
  Judy Taylor wrote:
  




  I wouldn't want 
  to be trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but 
  Torrance said" 
  would you??It 
  would appear from reading just a fraction of  what Torrance taught, 
  that his teaching is a mixture.  Part truth, and part oats that have 
  already been through the horse.  If this is true, does that make him 
  a false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of 
  us?Terry

[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




You said all that to say what Lance? That the wisdom of 
scripture/Bible is unreliable or that people (genuine believing Christians IYO) 
are hopelessly sinful and ignorant?  I would point out that the Church 
was into apostasy by the 2nd century and that most of what you mention below 
took place during the dark ages when God's truth was chained to an apostate 
pulpit - and people walked in what they were told by the magisterium of an 
apostate religious system. We are presently living in a new 
day.
 
From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Judyt:Perhaps you are, Judy. People who believed 
that the earth was flat (with Bible to support it); people who believed the sun 
revolved around the earth (with Bible to support it), people who believed that 
slavery was good (with Bible to support it); people who believed that women are 
chattel (with Bible to support it) exemplified the sort of 'certainty' that you 
do about most matters 'Biblical'. PS read genuine believing Christians' for the 
word 'people' 

  From: Judy Taylor 
  From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Judyt:Do you honestly believe, even for a 
  nanosecond, that any one who reads him thinks like that?  I recognize that 'cheap shots' are made by all on TT 
  from time to time but, often they have some basis in fact. If you've never received an 'assist' in your perception of 
  God and the Gospel by a human being then, praise God! 'cause you're an 
  anomally. 
   
  jt: I don't remember ever saying 
  that I've never sat under any ministry or received teaching from anyone. To 
  the contrary - this is how I have learned (the hard way) to be responsible to 
  evaluate everything I read/hear in the light of God's Word especially today 
  since there is more divination, apostasy, and false teaching out there now 
  than there has ever been in the history of the Church. I do not take cheap 
  shots Lance, I am as serious about this as I can be.
   
  
From: Terry Clifton 
Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  

  
I wouldn't want to 
be trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance 
said" 
would you??It 
would appear from reading just a fraction of  what Torrance taught, 
that his teaching is a mixture.  Part truth, and part oats that have 
already been through the horse.  If this is true, does that make him a 
false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of 
us?Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Judyt:Perhaps you are, Judy. People who believed 
that the earth was flat (with Bible to support it); people who believed the sun 
revolved around the earth (with Bible to support it), people who believed that 
slavery was good (with Bible to support it); people who believed that women are 
chattel (with Bible to support it) exemplified the sort of 'certainty' that you 
do about most matters 'Biblical'. PS read genuine believing Christians' for the 
word 'people' 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 07, 2004 07:52
  Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ 
  -- the real vs false
  
   
  From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Judyt:Do you honestly believe, even for a 
  nanosecond, that any one who reads him thinks like that?  I recognize that 'cheap shots' are made by all on TT 
  from time to time but, often they have some basis in fact. If you've never received an 'assist' in your perception of 
  God and the Gospel by a human being then, praise God! 'cause you're an 
  anomally. 
   
  jt: I don't remember ever saying 
  that I've never sat under any ministry or received teaching from anyone. To 
  the contrary - this is how I have learned (the hard way) to be responsible to 
  evaluate everything I read/hear in the light of God's Word especially today 
  since there is more divination, apostasy, and false teaching out there now 
  than there has ever been in the history of the Church. I do not take cheap 
  shots Lance, I am as serious about this as I can be.
   
  
From: Terry Clifton 
Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  

  
I wouldn't want to 
be trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance 
said" 
would you??It 
would appear from reading just a fraction of  what Torrance taught, 
that his teaching is a mixture.  Part truth, and part oats that have 
already been through the horse.  If this is true, does that make him a 
false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of 
us?Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Judyt:No, I wouldn't put Jesus in the same 
category. However, I would put you, Terry, Izzy, DavidM, DaveH, Laura, G, and 
all the rest of us in 'that' category.
 Are we both reading the posts on TT?? Do you 
not perceive how one's 'perception' of the truth is 'colored', bent, skewed, 
influenced?? 
  Once again:'genuine' beliver + God's Word + 
Holy Spirit=a 'gazillion' churches, books, preachers, participants in chat rooms 
or, one's perception of the truth.
 Other than yourself does anyone else disagree 
with this equation? 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 07, 2004 07:42
  Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ 
  -- the real vs false
  
  From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Hi Terry/Judy:TF a false teacher? This then would 
  indicate that you two have read or listened to him with sufficient care 
  and thoughtfulness to have distinguished the true from the false (according to 
  your own perception of the truth). 
   
  jt: Lance it intrigues me that you 
  always use the qualifier "your own perception of the truth" Truth is 
  what it is and it is not difficult, it is written right there in scripture. I 
  daresay if Jesus Himself walked amongst us you would put him in the same 
  category.  Don't you believe Jeremiah 31:33, or Hebrews 8:8-11?  Is 
  noone able to perceive truth by the ministry of the Holy Spirit?  Has God 
  lost the battle and the adversary clouded the issues so  that the truth 
  is hidden from everyone who does not agree with you, Bill, Jonathan, and 
  Torrance?
   
  If circumstances could be reversed would this 
  make the two of you 'false teachers'?
   
  jt: What 
circumstances?
   
  This isn't the way to carry on a discussion re: 
  the content of one's teaching vis a vis it's faithfulness to God and His 
  Gospel.
  As the TV has an on/off switch so I'd suggest you 
  opt out of the discussion if you don't wish to scrutinize it with 
  care.
   
  jt: I've fallen for this 
  one in trying to dialogue with die hard members of the rcc even 
  going so far as to buy their new catechism which was a waste of 
  time/money and didn't help any of us because if we will not 
  unify around the truth of God's Word there can be no unity.  We 
  would be much wiser to scrutinize the Word of 
  God the bread from heaven because to validate your beliefs you 
  will need to show them in the Word of God (in balance and in 
  context). So far your group has put forth a few scriptures that appear to 
  validate these claims ignorting those that would need to be excised if this 
  theory were true.  We know we are making progress when we don't have to 
  modify or cut out any scripture to fit our doctrine.
   
  
From: Judy Taylor 
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hi Terry, you write:
It would appear from reading just a fraction of  what Torrance 
taught, that his teaching is a mixture. Part truth, and part oats that 
have already been through the horse.  If this is true, does that make 
him a false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of 
us?  Terry
 
jt: Doesn't Satan always hang his lies 
on truth?  He would not succeed in deceiving without 
it.  The Koran is 50% scripture and every cult uses some mixture 
of twisted scripture in their teachings - they just add and subtract a few 
things.  When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he used 
scripture, presented with his spin of course but it was God's truth he 
perverted.
 
How do his (Satan's) ministers present themselves 
as 'angels of light without God's Word?'  I wouldn't presume to judge 
Torrance the man, that is God's business but it is our responsibility to be 
Berean and judge his public teaching in the light of God's Word.  I 
consider it false enough to be dangerous.  How would you define a false 
teacher Terry?
 
===Judy 
Taylor wrote:I wouldn't want to be 
trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance said" 
would you??

[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




 
From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Judyt:Do you honestly believe, even for a 
nanosecond, that any one who reads him thinks like that?  I recognize that 'cheap shots' are made by all on TT 
from time to time but, often they have some basis in fact. If you've never received an 'assist' in your perception of God 
and the Gospel by a human being then, praise God! 'cause you're an 
anomally. 
 
jt: I don't remember ever saying that 
I've never sat under any ministry or received teaching from anyone. To the 
contrary - this is how I have learned (the hard way) to be responsible to 
evaluate everything I read/hear in the light of God's Word especially today 
since there is more divination, apostasy, and false teaching out there now than 
there has ever been in the history of the Church. I do not take cheap shots 
Lance, I am as serious about this as I can be.
 

  From: Terry Clifton 
  Judy Taylor wrote:
  



  I wouldn't want to 
  be trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance 
  said" 
  would you??It 
  would appear from reading just a fraction of  what Torrance taught, that 
  his teaching is a mixture.  Part truth, and part oats that have already 
  been through the horse.  If this is true, does that make him a false 
  teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of us?Terry

[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hi Terry/Judy:TF a false teacher? This then would 
indicate that you two have read or listened to him with sufficient care and 
thoughtfulness to have distinguished the true from the false (according to your 
own perception of the truth). 
 
jt: Lance it intrigues me that you 
always use the qualifier "your own perception of the truth" Truth is what 
it is and it is not difficult, it is written right there in scripture. I daresay 
if Jesus Himself walked amongst us you would put him in the same category.  
Don't you believe Jeremiah 31:33, or Hebrews 8:8-11?  Is noone able to 
perceive truth by the ministry of the Holy Spirit?  Has God lost the battle 
and the adversary clouded the issues so  that the truth is hidden from 
everyone who does not agree with you, Bill, Jonathan, and Torrance?
 
If circumstances could be reversed would this make 
the two of you 'false teachers'?
 
jt: What circumstances?
 
This isn't the way to carry on a discussion re: the 
content of one's teaching vis a vis it's faithfulness to God and His 
Gospel.
As the TV has an on/off switch so I'd suggest you 
opt out of the discussion if you don't wish to scrutinize it with 
care.
 
jt: I've fallen for this one in 
trying to dialogue with die hard members of the rcc even going so far as to 
buy their new catechism which was a waste of time/money and didn't help any 
of us because if we will not unify around the truth of God's Word 
there can be no unity.  We would be much wiser to scrutinize the 
Word of God the bread from heaven because to validate your beliefs you 
will need to show them in the Word of God (in balance and in 
context). So far your group has put forth a few scriptures that appear to 
validate these claims ignorting those that would need to be excised if this 
theory were true.  We know we are making progress when we don't have to 
modify or cut out any scripture to fit our doctrine.
 

  From: Judy Taylor 
  From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Hi Terry, you write:
  It would appear from reading just a fraction of  what Torrance 
  taught, that his teaching is a mixture. Part truth, and part oats that 
  have already been through the horse.  If this is true, does that make him 
  a false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of us?  
  Terry
   
  jt: Doesn't Satan always hang his lies 
  on truth?  He would not succeed in deceiving without 
  it.  The Koran is 50% scripture and every cult uses some mixture of 
  twisted scripture in their teachings - they just add and subtract a few 
  things.  When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he used 
  scripture, presented with his spin of course but it was God's truth he 
  perverted.
   
  How do his (Satan's) ministers present themselves as 
  'angels of light without God's Word?'  I wouldn't presume to judge 
  Torrance the man, that is God's business but it is our responsibility to be 
  Berean and judge his public teaching in the light of God's Word.  I 
  consider it false enough to be dangerous.  How would you define a false 
  teacher Terry?
   
  ===Judy 
  Taylor wrote:I wouldn't want to be 
  trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance said" 
  would you??

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false




Hi Terry/Judy:TF a false teacher? This then would 
indicate that you two have read or listened to him with sufficient care and 
thoughtfulness to have distinguished the true from the false (according to your 
own perception of the truth). If circumstances could be reversed would this make 
the two of you 'false teachers'?
  This isn't the way to carry on a discussion 
re: the content of one's teaching vis a vis it's faithfulness to God and His 
Gospel.
  As the TV has an on/off switch so I'd 
suggest you opt out of the discussion if you don't wish to scrutinize it with 
care.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: June 06, 2004 17:49
  Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ 
  -- the real vs false
  
  From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Hi Terry, you write:
  It would appear from reading just a fraction of  what Torrance 
  taught, that his teaching is a mixture. Part truth, and part oats that 
  have already been through the horse.  If this is true, does that make him 
  a false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of us?  
  Terry
   
  jt: Doesn't Satan always hang his lies 
  on truth?  He would not succeed in deceiving without 
  it.  The Koran is 50% scripture and every cult uses some mixture of 
  twisted scripture in their teachings - they just add and subtract a few 
  things.  When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he used 
  scripture, presented with his spin of course but it was God's truth he 
  perverted.
   
  How do his (Satan's) ministers present themselves as 
  'angels of light without God's Word?'  I wouldn't presume to judge 
  Torrance the man, that is God's business but it is our responsibility to be 
  Berean and judge his public teaching in the light of God's Word.  I 
  consider it false enough to be dangerous.  How would you define a false 
  teacher Terry?
   
  ===Judy 
  Taylor wrote:I wouldn't want to be 
  trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance said" 
  would you??

Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false