subject:"RE\: \[TruthTalk\] The value of history"




Judy, you wouldn't even know the word "person" were 
it not for the early fathers. It didn't exist before them. They are the 
ones who invented it. Why can't you be glad they created it? By 
coining the word, they gave you a gift: the ability to say things 
about God that could otherwise only be intuited. Please, Judy, I'm not the 
enemy. The early fathers are not the enemy. We are your brothers. We love 
you.Let usshower you with gifts.

Bill Taylor

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 5:02 
AM
  Subject: [TruthTalk] The value of 
  history
  
  From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Dear Kevin and 
  Judy,
  We are having problems communicating because of two faulty 
  assumptions.Following are two assumptions that need to be examined:
  
  1. Does God's Word equal The Bible? My answer: 
  No. 
  
  jt: My question then is, where are you going to find 
  it then? Where IYO
  is the present day Sanhedrin seated?
  
  The Bible is God's Word, but God's Word is not the Bible. God's 
  Wordincludes much more than the Bible.
  
  jt: Would you say that God's Word is a person? and 
  would you believe this
  independent of the Nicene Fathers?
  
  The problem here is that when you read in the Bible, "the Word" or 
  "theWord of God," you automatically think it is talking about the Bible. 
  Itis not. The Bible did not even exist when these words were 
  writtendown.
  
  jt: What about "scriptures" - did the scriptures 
  exist when these words
  were written?
  
  Example:Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God 
  (Romans 10:17).
  This does not mean that faith comes by reading the Bible, but I 
  suspectthat you both have this in mind when you read this passage. 
  The Word ofGod in this passage refers to the oral word of God, not the 
  written wordof God. It refers to the Word of God spoken by a man 
  preaching thegospel under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. 
  
  jt: Would you say the apostle Paul is one of these 
  men who spoke the
  Word of God publicly? If so then why would he 
  call the Bereans more
  honorable because they checked his preaching/teaching 
  by the written
  Word daily? [Acts17:11]
  
  Think about it. The passage cannot possibly mean "reading the 
  Bible" 
  or even someone else reading the Bible for you.
  
  jt: Why not? Jesus said His Words are spirit 
  and they are life; and I 
  for one, believe him and have found them to be more 
  trustworthy
  between the covers of my Bible than from the mouths 
  of some speakers.
  
  2. There is a difference between my use of the phrase "PRIMARY 
  SOURCE"and the word "AUTHORITY." The Bible is an authority FOR THIS 
  EARTH, 
  but it is NOT a primary source. The Bible itself teaches this in 
  manyplaces, including the passages already shared. If you want 
  moreexplanation, I will be glad to answer questions asked by those who 
  areinterested.
  
  jt: Whether or not you consider the Bible to be a 
  primary source David,
  it is what God has given to reveal Himself to us. 
  Jesus told the ppl
  in the first century that if they would not believe 
  Moses and the prophets
  they would not believe though one rose from the dead. 
  You may see
  the Holy Spirit as primary source but He is the one 
  who works with
  rather than against scripture to lead us into ALL 
  truth.
  
  Kevin asked for another authority other than the Bible. The 
  Bibleitself teaches that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth 
  (1Tim. 3:15). That makes the church an authority too. There 
  are otherauthorities mentioned by the Bible. If anyone is 
  interested, just askabout it. It's all in the Bible, but even those 
  who study the Bible thehardest seem to miss it.
  
  jt: The Church are the ones who do the will of the 
  Father - and how
  do we know the will of the Father? I've seen ppl 
  following spirits
  they claim is the holy spirit and I've heard more 
  heresy from the
  pulpits around. You are teaching against being 
  Berean David and
  your personal belief appears to me to be more along 
  the lines of
  tradition, mysticism and RC'ism.
  judyt
  
  God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people 
  study

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history





NKJ Colossians 2:3 --"in whom are hidden all the treasures 
of wisdom and knowledge."
I hope you never hear an ass speak or a rock cry out. You might 
just think your stomach's growling [:)
Let's get over it, Judy; if I'm not the enemy, why do you insist 
on treating me like I am?
Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 6:57 
AM
  Subject: [TruthTalk] The value of 
  history
  
  From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Judy, you wouldn't even know the word "person" 
  were it not for the early fathers.
  It didn't exist before them. They are the 
  ones who invented it. 
  
  jt: Oh? And did the Nicene Fathers 
  also come up with Colossians 2:3 also?
  
  Why can't you be glad they created it? By 
  coining the word, they gave you a gift: 
  the ability to say things about God that could 
  otherwise only be intuited. 
  
  jt: Bill we need to give credit 
  where credit is due. I am using spiritual words
  to communicate spiritual truths and 
  both of thesecome to me by way of
  the Holy Spirit. Not the Nicene 
  Fathers.
  
  Please, Judy, I'm not the enemy. The early 
  fathers are not the enemy. 
  We are your brothers. We love you.Let 
  usshower you with gifts.
  
  jt: I'm aware that my warfare is 
  notwith flesh and blood Bill so I don't count 
  you as an enemy even when we are not in 
  agreement.
  judyt
  
  God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people 
  study
  
  
From: Judy Taylor 
From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Dear Kevin 
and Judy,
We are having problems communicating because of two faulty 
assumptions.Following are two assumptions that need to be 
examined:

1. Does God's Word equal The Bible? My answer: 
No. 

jt: My question then is, where are you going to 
find it then? Where IYO
is the present day Sanhedrin seated?

The Bible is God's Word, but God's Word is not the Bible. God's 
Wordincludes much more than the Bible.

jt: Would you say that God's Word is a person? and 
would you believe this
independent of the Nicene Fathers?

The problem here is that when you read in the Bible, "the Word" or 
"theWord of God," you automatically think it is talking about the Bible. 
Itis not. The Bible did not even exist when these words were 
writtendown.

jt: What about "scriptures" - did the scriptures 
exist when these words
were written?

Example:Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God 
(Romans 10:17).
This does not mean that faith comes by reading the Bible, but I 
suspectthat you both have this in mind when you read this passage. 
The Word ofGod in this passage refers to the oral word of God, not the 
written wordof God. It refers to the Word of God spoken by a man 
preaching thegospel under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. 


jt: Would you say the apostle Paul is one of these 
men who spoke the
Word of God publicly? If so then why would he 
call the Bereans more
honorable because they checked his 
preaching/teaching by the written
Word daily? [Acts17:11]

Think about it. The passage cannot possibly mean "reading the 
Bible" 
or even someone else reading the Bible for you.

jt: Why not? Jesus said His Words are spirit 
and they are life; and I 
for one, believe him and have found them to be more 
trustworthy
between the covers of my Bible than from the mouths 
of some speakers.

2. There is a difference between my use of the phrase "PRIMARY 
SOURCE"and the word "AUTHORITY." The Bible is an authority FOR 
THIS EARTH, 
but it is NOT a primary source. The Bible itself teaches this in 
manyplaces, including the passages already shared. If you want 
moreexplanation, I will be glad to answer questions asked by those who 
areinterested.

jt: Whether or not you consider the Bible to be a 
primary source David,
it is what God has given to reveal Himself to us. 
Jesus told the ppl
in the first century that if they would not believe 
Moses and the prophets
they would not believe though one rose from the 
dead. You may see
the Holy Spirit as primary source but He is the one 
who works with
rather than against scripture to lead us into ALL 
truth.

Kevin asked for another authority other than the Bible. The 
Bibleitself teaches that the church is the pillar and ground of the 
truth (1Tim. 3:15). That makes the church an authority too. 
There are otherauthorities mentioned by the Bible. If anyone is 
interested, just askabout it. It's all in the Bible, but even 
those who study the Bible thehardest seem to miss it.

jt: The Church are the ones who do the will of the 
Father - and how
do we know the will of the Father? I've seen ppl

RE: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-12 Thread David Miller

Judy wrote:
 Bill we need to give credit where credit is due. 
 I am using spiritual words to communicate spiritual 
 truths and both of these come to me by way of the 
 Holy Spirit. Not the Nicene Fathers.

I think the principle that you have lost sight of is that none of us
have lived in a vacuum such that all that we have received is only from
the Holy Spirit and the Bible.  Did you learn English by way of the Holy
Spirit?  Does your knowledge of the words you use come ONLY by way of
the Holy Spirit?  If so, then why did he teach you English and not
Hebrew?  Why not other languages?  

Everybody has been impacted by those who have gone before us.  The words
we use, the mannerisms that we have, the understanding of what words
mean, etc., have been thrust upon us from a multitude of sources.  To
deny this is to deny reality.  If we are honest, we must acknowledge
these things.  

If you truly are skeptical, study some history.  We are connected to our
past and to the lives of those who have gone before us whether we like
it or not.  You many think in your mind that the Nicene Fathers have had
absolutely nothing to do with your existence, but you are wrong.  A
Protestant from birth might think that the Roman Catholic Church has had
absolutely no impact upon him, but he would be wrong.  A Mormon from
birth might think that Protestant Christianity has had nothing in him,
but he would be wrong.  We all live with one another, and in some shape
or form what we say and do impact each other, some more than others.

It seems like maybe you think that Bill is trying to say that you
learned the word person directly from reading the Nicene Fathers on
the subject of the Trinity.  That's not it.  The way I am hearing from
him is that historically, the Nicene Fathers hashed out this subject and
began to stress the concept of person in order to explain the idea of
the Trinity.  That concept caught on and when the English language was
invented hundreds of years later, the word person came about directly
because of the influence that these Nicene Fathers had upon our cultural
history.  I hope Bill will try and refine my hearing of him a little bit
better.  We need to try and make an effort to receive what he is saying
and mesh it with the knowledge that we already have.  If you find a few
bumps and wrinkles trying to do that, by all means, communicate in a way
that will help smooth them out, but don't do that in such a way that you
are batting down something legitimate that Bill or anyone else is trying
to share.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
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Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-12 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 3/12/2004 1:23:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Everybody has been impacted by those who have gone before us.

True but  this does not mean that we are, therefore, incapable of arriving at conclusions that "given" to us apart from this history. if someone in history (i.e., the Nicene Fathers) were capable of coming up with an original idea back then, why is it not possible today? What we have here is a philosophical impasse. And it is philosophical -- this discussion about the place of history and its relationship to "original" thought. You are not having a discussion simply about the use of the word "person." Rather , you (judyt, Bill, et al, disagree as to whether all philosophical conclusions (including religious conclusions) can originate with a particular and modern time believer or thinker. That's a tough question. 

I am not sure why this is an important discussion, but that is the question as I see it. Maybe I am missing something. 


John

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history




Brother, brother. I am notsaying anything 
about the possibility or impossibility of original thought.It might be a 
cool conversation, but that's not it at all.Let's not be too proud to give 
credit to those whose thoughts were true, whose words we speak, whose praises we 
sing. It's okay. We can do this, because we know their thoughts were 
captivatedby obedienceto the Lord, our Lord. They knew whose truth 
it was. We know whose truth it is. Who's denying that? I get it. You get 
it.What's the problem?If Jesus Christ speaks through an ass or 
Athanasius,why should it matter? It'shis prerogative.Drink 
deeply.
Bill

- Original Message - 

  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 3:40 
PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The value of 
  history
  In a 
  message dated 3/12/2004 1:23:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
  Everybody has been impacted by those who have gone before 
us.True but  
  this does not mean that we are, therefore, incapable of arriving 
  at conclusions that "given" to us apart from this history. if someone in 
  history (i.e., the Nicene Fathers) were capable of coming up with an 
  original idea back then, why is it not possible today? What we 
  have here is a philosophical impasse. And it is philosophical 
  -- this discussion about the place of history and its relationship to 
  "original" thought. You are not having a discussion simply about the use 
  of the word "person." Rather , you (judyt, Bill, et al, 
  disagree as to whether all philosophical conclusions (including religious 
  conclusions) can originate with a particular and modern time believer or 
  thinker. That's a tough question.  I am not 
  sure why this is an important discussion, but that is the question as I see 
  it. Maybe I am missing something.  
  John

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

David, you have a great gift of describing things in easy language. Great
insight too. I hope people are not put off by this. Truth has a way of,
well, upsetting people. We need to know this nevertheless.

Thanks for coming to my defense. I pray only that I do not fail you.

Bill
- Original Message -
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 2:20 PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The value of history

 Judy wrote:
  Bill we need to give credit where credit is due.
  I am using spiritual words to communicate spiritual
  truths and both of these come to me by way of the
  Holy Spirit. Not the Nicene Fathers.

 I think the principle that you have lost sight of is that none of us
 have lived in a vacuum such that all that we have received is only from
 the Holy Spirit and the Bible.  Did you learn English by way of the Holy
 Spirit?  Does your knowledge of the words you use come ONLY by way of
 the Holy Spirit?  If so, then why did he teach you English and not
 Hebrew?  Why not other languages?

 Everybody has been impacted by those who have gone before us.  The words
 we use, the mannerisms that we have, the understanding of what words
 mean, etc., have been thrust upon us from a multitude of sources.  To
 deny this is to deny reality.  If we are honest, we must acknowledge
 these things.

 If you truly are skeptical, study some history.  We are connected to our
 past and to the lives of those who have gone before us whether we like
 it or not.  You many think in your mind that the Nicene Fathers have had
 absolutely nothing to do with your existence, but you are wrong.  A
 Protestant from birth might think that the Roman Catholic Church has had
 absolutely no impact upon him, but he would be wrong.  A Mormon from
 birth might think that Protestant Christianity has had nothing in him,
 but he would be wrong.  We all live with one another, and in some shape
 or form what we say and do impact each other, some more than others.

 It seems like maybe you think that Bill is trying to say that you
 learned the word person directly from reading the Nicene Fathers on
 the subject of the Trinity.  That's not it.  The way I am hearing from
 him is that historically, the Nicene Fathers hashed out this subject and
 began to stress the concept of person in order to explain the idea of
 the Trinity.  That concept caught on and when the English language was
 invented hundreds of years later, the word person came about directly
 because of the influence that these Nicene Fathers had upon our cultural
 history.  I hope Bill will try and refine my hearing of him a little bit
 better.  We need to try and make an effort to receive what he is saying
 and mesh it with the knowledge that we already have.  If you find a few
 bumps and wrinkles trying to do that, by all means, communicate in a way
 that will help smooth them out, but don't do that in such a way that you
 are batting down something legitimate that Bill or anyone else is trying
 to share.

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
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Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-11 Thread Kevin Deegan

DavidM says He is the light that lighteth every man who comes into the world, even those who have never read the Bible. Jesus Christ is found in history as well as in the Bible.
Thanks Judy for pointing out. 
jt: By what authority do yousay Jesus Christ is found everywhere?He is and has always been the Word of God (Rev 19:13). As for him lighting everyone who comes into the world, is the apostle Paul out to lunch in Ephesians 2?
The thought of Christ being here or thereis chilling to me.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] The truth is that history is a body of knowledgefrom which all of us interpret and understand truth,  including truth found in the Bible.

Kevin wrote: I do not interpret the truth of the biblethrough the lense of history. I interprethistory through the lens of TRUTH the HOLY BIBLE.

Well, this is where you miss it. Your implicit assumption here is that the Bible is Truth and contains all truth that might be known by man. You should be interpreting the Bible through the lens of Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is found everywhere. He is the light that lighteth every man who comes into the world, even those who have never read theBible. Jesus Christ is found in history as well as in the Bible.

jt: By what authority do yousay Jesus Christ is found everywhere?He is and has always been the Word of God (Rev 19:13). As for him lighting everyone who comes into the world, is the apostle Paul out to lunch in Ephesians 2?

Kevin wrote: Why should I go to a secondary source whichis not INSPIRED or PRESERVED? 

The Bible is not a primary source. Where did you get that idea? From the Reformation idea of Sola Scriptura?

jt: The scriptures are a primary source for a 'believer' and they are Jesus' standard. We are to be judged by the words he spoke rather than the opinions of historians and so called church fathers.

Read the Bible and see what it says. Who is the primary source of truth, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE? (Hint: John 16:13)

jt: The author and inspiration of scripture the Holy Spirit.

Truth is not the Bible. Read the Bible to learn this. The Bible speaks of truth dwelling inside of us. The Bible cannot dwell inside of us. Jesus dwells inside of us and His words dwell inside of us (the living word not the written word) through a work of the Holy Spirit.

jt: Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of the Father making intercession for those who are his; the Spirit of Promise who he sent indwells and seals those who are his and how does one come to him? By faith and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Where do we find the Word of God? In the Bible. Selah!!

Hear the Bible speak about how truth dwells inside us and will be with us forever: The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, WHICH DWELLETH IN US, and shall be with us for ever. (2 John 1:1-2 KJV)

jt: Jesus will be with his Church [the real one] forever but there are many who believer they are his to whom he will say "depart from me..." Read the parable of the sower... the truth can be stolen.

Look, the Bible is the highest authority of revelation among us. It is so because of the testimony of HISTORY there's that dreaded word again! :-). But the Bible is not the primary source that Jesus spoke about that would guide us into all truth. Do not replace the Holy Spirit with the Bible. That is the error of many denominations, and the Baptistsespecially! Believe the Bible and obey it and you will see that what I say about the Bible is true.

jt: The Bible is not the problem; doctrines of men/demons are the problem; then there are those who are obsessed by the Spirit but have no discernment so they follow whatever spirit shows up. Either error is a mess and will lead to the ditch

judyt

God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people study.


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RE: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-11 Thread David Miller

Dear Kevin and Judy,

We are having problems communicating because of two faulty assumptions.
Following are two assumptions that need to be examined:

1.  Does God's Word equal The Bible? 

My answer:  No.  

The Bible is God's Word, but God's Word is not the Bible. God's Word
includes much more than the Bible.

The problem here is that when you read in the Bible, the Word or the
Word of God, you automatically think it is talking about the Bible. It
is not.  The Bible did not even exist when these words were written
down.

Example:
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

This does not mean that faith comes by reading the Bible, but I suspect
that you both have this in mind when you read this passage.  The Word of
God in this passage refers to the oral word of God, not the written word
of God.  It refers to the Word of God spoken by a man preaching the
gospel under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.  Think about it.  The
passage cannot possibly mean reading the Bible or even someone else
reading the Bible for you.

2.  There is a difference between my use of the phrase PRIMARY SOURCE
and the word AUTHORITY.  The Bible is an authority FOR THIS EARTH, but
it is NOT a primary source.  The Bible itself teaches this in many
places, including the passages already shared.  If you want more
explanation, I will be glad to answer questions asked by those who are
interested.

Kevin asked for another authority other than the Bible.  The Bible
itself teaches that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1
Tim. 3:15).  That makes the church an authority too.  There are other
authorities mentioned by the Bible.  If anyone is interested, just ask
about it.  It's all in the Bible, but even those who study the Bible the
hardest seem to miss it.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-11 Thread David Miller

DavidM says He is the light that lighteth every man 
who comes into the world, even those who have never 
read the Bible.  Jesus Christ is found in history 
as well as in the Bible.

Kevin wrote:
 The thought of Christ being here 
 or there is chilling to me.

Judy wrote:
 It's chilling to me also Kevin, it's another gospel 
 with a different Jesus; how can one be BY NATURE a 
 child of wrath and ATST have Christ lighting them 
 on the inside? What kind of logic is that?

You all see the problem when the Mormons frame a religion based upon
their own written Scriptures and religious system, but you can't see
that you have the same problem when you do the same thing.  What does it
take for people to see that God transcends religion, religious systems,
denominations, philosophy, and every intellectual device and dogma of
men?  Rely less on human reasoning and more on the illumination of the
Holy Spirit and the Word of God.  Consider the following verses in light
of my comments:

That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE
WORLD. (John 1:9 KJV)

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and
find him, THOUGH HE BE NOT FAR FROM EVERY ONE OF US: FOR IN HIM WE LIVE,
AND MOVE, AND HAVE OUR BEING; as certain also of your own poets have
said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the
offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto
gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times
of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where
to repent. (Acts 17:27-30 KJV)

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of
the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the
law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the
law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written
in their hearts, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their
thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) (Romans
2:13-15 KJV)

Study also what the logos is and when you read the Scriptures teach that
Yeshua was the Logos, learn what that means.  Truth and wisdom and
knowledge does not exist apart from Jesus Christ.  Once we understand
this, then we know that even the most evil genius has been touched by
the light of Christ.

Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift
IS FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is
no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:16-17 KJV)

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
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Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-11 Thread Terry Clifton







  


You might want to rethink this David. A pillar is used to hold
something up. It "upholds". In my opinion, this verse means that the
church upholds the truth contained in the Word. It does not establish
the Word. It simply lives and teaches what the scriptures reveal
through the Holy Spirit.

 Terry

 

  

Kevin asked for another authority other than the Bible. The Bible
itself teaches that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1
Tim. 3:15). That makes the church an authority too. There are other
authorities mentioned by the Bible. If anyone is interested, just ask
about it. It's all in the Bible, but even those who study the Bible the
hardest seem to miss it.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
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RE: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-11 Thread Kevin Deegan

Do you have "LIGHT" based experiences?
David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DavidM says He is the light that lighteth every man who comes into the world, even those who have never read the Bible. Jesus Christ is found in history as well as in the Bible.Kevin wrote: The thought of Christ being here or there is chilling to me.Judy wrote: It's chilling to me also Kevin, it's another gospel with a different Jesus; how can one be BY NATURE a child of wrath and ATST have Christ lighting them on the inside? What kind of logic is that?You all see the problem when the Mormons frame a religion based upontheir own written Scriptures and religious system, but you can't seethat you have the same problem when you do the same thing. What does ittake for people to see that God transcends religion, religious systems,denominations, philosophy, and every intellectual device
and dogma ofmen? Rely less on human reasoning and more on the illumination of theHoly Spirit and the Word of God. Consider the following verses in lightof my comments:That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THEWORLD. (John 1:9 KJV)That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, andfind him, THOUGH HE BE NOT FAR FROM EVERY ONE OF US: FOR IN HIM WE LIVE,AND MOVE, AND HAVE OUR BEING; as certain also of your own poets havesaid, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are theoffspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like untogold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the timesof this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every whereto repent. (Acts 17:27-30 KJV)(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers ofthe law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not thelaw, do
by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not thelaw, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law writtenin their hearts, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and theirthoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) (Romans2:13-15 KJV)Study also what the logos is and when you read the Scriptures teach thatYeshua was the Logos, learn what that means. Truth and wisdom andknowledge does not exist apart from Jesus Christ. Once we understandthis, then we know that even the most evil genius has been touched bythe light of Christ.Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect giftIS FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom isno variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:16-17 KJV)Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-11 Thread Kevin Deegan

Sort of like the verse that says the Apostles are the foundation.Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


You might want to rethink this David. A pillar is used to hold something up. It "upholds". In my opinion, this verse means that the church upholds the truth contained in the Word. It does not establish the Word. It simply lives and teaches what the scriptures reveal through the Holy Spirit. Terry 

Kevin asked for another authority other than the Bible. The Bibleitself teaches that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1Tim. 3:15). That makes the church an authority too. There are otherauthorities mentioned by the Bible. If anyone is interested, just askabout it. It's all in the Bible, but even those who study the Bible thehardest seem to miss it.Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-11 Thread David Miller

Terry wrote:
 You might want to rethink this David.  
 A pillar is used to hold something up.  
 It upholds.  In my opinion, this verse 
 means that the church upholds the truth 
 contained in the Word.  It does not establish 
 the Word.  It simply lives and teaches what 
 the scriptures reveal through the Holy Spirit.

My good friend and elder brother in Christ,

I don't know where to begin because I could type for hours and hours
about this and only barely scratch the surface.  The church does much
more than just live and teach what the Scriptures reveal.  If you think
about it, the churches of Christ actually brought forth to us the
Scriptures which we call the Bible.  The New Testament came forth as
revelation from God and was penned down onto paper as the Spirit gave
utterance.  Yes, the Scriptures came from the church and not the church
from the Scriptures.  But there is yet a lot more than this because it
really isn't even linear like this, one leading to the other, but it is
like a net, like the neurons of the brain, that are all interconnected
and feeding one another and reciprocating with one another. 

Let me make a few points and see if you can figure out where I am coming
from without me taking up too much time.

1.  Don't just look at the word pillar in that passage, but also
ground, also translated as foundation.  The church is the foundation
and pillar of truth, or the church is the basis and pillar of truth.
Think about the image of a base / foundation with a huge pillar
protruding from it.  This is what the church is to truth.  It is no
small part of it.

2.  Consider a man who is a member of your congregation suddenly thinks
he has insight that an abortionist needs to be killed because he kills
unborn children.  Try as you might to show him the Bible to deter him
from what he wants to do, he interprets the Bible to say that the man
needs to die and he is going to use his rifle to kill this abortionist
the very next weekend.  You bring the matter to the church, and the
whole church with one voice says that this man should not kill the
abortionist.  What should the man do?  If the church has no authority
about truth whatsoever, then man should do what he thinks is right based
upon Scripture.  On the other hand, if the church has authority
concerning truth, then this man should submit unto the church.

3.  Consider 1 Cor. 12 that contrasts the church with dumb idols.  The
false gods did not have the power of speech.  They were mute.  Christ's
church, on the other hand, has the power of speech.  Paul explains this
in more detail in 1 Cor. 12-14.  

4.  Consider the role of the church in 1 Cor. 5 where Paul tells the
Corinthians to deliver the man caught in fornication over to Satan for
the destruction of his flesh.  This is church exercising authority in
the truth that believers are not to fornicate. 

5.  Consider Paul's admonition to the church not to eat with anyone
called a brother who is in various sins.  This is the church acting as
the pillar and ground of truth.  This is the church exercising authority
and being an authority in the life of other believers.

6.  Consider Mat. 18 where the last step in a personal sin is to tell it
to the whole church, and if the one who is in sin does not hear the
church, he is to be treated as a heathen and a publican.  

7.  Consider 1 Cor. 6 where Paul tells the believers to set up courts of
law to judge between brothers in Christ so that they would not go before
the secular courts in their grievances with one another.  

8.  Consider the imagery of the candlesticks in Revelation, and how
Jesus threatens to remove the candlestick if the church did not repent.

I don't know where to stop now.  :-)  I think maybe you can see a little
of where I'm coming from.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-11 Thread Terry Clifton

David Miller wrote:

Terry wrote:

You might want to rethink this David.
A pillar is used to hold something up.
It "upholds". In my opinion, this verse
means that the church upholds the truth
contained in the Word. It does not establish
the Word. It simply lives and teaches what
the scriptures reveal through the Holy Spirit.

My good friend and elder brother in Christ,

I don't know where to begin because I could type for hours and hours
about this and only barely scratch the surface. The church does much
more than just live and teach what the Scriptures reveal. If you think
about it, the churches of Christ actually brought forth to us the
Scriptures which we call the Bible. The New Testament came forth as
revelation from God and was penned down onto paper as the Spirit gave
utterance. Yes, the Scriptures came from the church and not the church
from the Scriptures. But there is yet a lot more than this because it
really isn't even linear like this, one leading to the other, but it is
like a net, like the neurons of the brain, that are all interconnected
and feeding one another and reciprocating with one another.

Let me make a few points and see if you can figure out where I am coming
from without me taking up too much time.

1. Don't just look at the word pillar in that passage, but also
"ground," also translated as foundation. The church is the foundation
and pillar of truth, or the church is the basis and pillar of truth.
Think about the image of a base / foundation with a huge pillar
protruding from it. This is what the church is to truth. It is no
small part of it.

2. Consider a man who is a member of your congregation suddenly thinks
he has insight that an abortionist needs to be killed because he kills
unborn children. Try as you might to show him the Bible to deter him
from what he wants to do, he interprets the Bible to say that the man
needs to die and he is going to use his rifle to kill this abortionist
the very next weekend. You bring the matter to the church, and the
whole church with one voice says that this man should not kill the
abortionist. What should the man do? If the church has no authority
about truth whatsoever, then man should do what he thinks is right based
upon Scripture. On the other hand, if the church has authority
concerning truth, then this man should submit unto the church.

Would the church be able to make a case without p[ointing to
scripture?

3. Consider 1 Cor. 12 that contrasts the church with dumb idols. The
false gods did not have the power of speech. They were mute. Christ's
church, on the other hand, has the power of speech. Paul explains this
in more detail in 1 Cor. 12-14. Do they not use this power to proclaim the Gospel?

4. Consider the role of the church in 1 Cor. 5 where Paul tells the
Corinthians to deliver the man caught in fornication over to Satan for
the destruction of his flesh. This is church exercising authority in
the truth that believers are not to fornicate. This was not a decision made by the church. It was scripture brfore there was a church

5. Consider Paul's admonition to the church not to eat with anyone
called a brother who is in various sins. This is the church acting as
the pillar and ground of truth. This is the church exercising authority
and being an authority in the life of other believers. Good point! But how would the church today know this without the Bible?

6. Consider Mat. 18 where the last step in a personal sin is to tell it
to the whole church, and if the one who is in sin does not hear the
church, he is to be treated as a heathen and a publican. This is the church living and teaching what God commands. Without scripture, I would not know this.

7. Consider 1 Cor. 6 where Paul tells the believers to set up courts of
law to judge between brothers in Christ so that they would not go before
the secular courts in their grievances with one another.

8. Consider the imagery of the candlesticks in Revelation, and how
Jesus threatens to remove the candlestick if the church did not repent.

I don't know where to stop now. :-) I think maybe you can see a little
of where I'm coming from.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

I do not think that we are that far apart. It's kinda like the
chicken and the egg thing. The church preceeded some of scripture, yet
all scripture guides the church. Though the church theoretically
decided what was scripture, it was the God of scripture that guided
them. They, the church , did not invent scripture. They merely edited
it.
That's the way I see it, but I was wrong once before in 1938.
Terry

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-10 Thread Kevin Deegan

DavidM says: The truth is that history is a body of knowledge from which all of usinterpret and understand truth, including truth found in the Bible.
I do not interpret the truth of the bible through the lense of history. I interpret history through the lens of TRUTH the HOLY BIBLE.
Why should I go to a secondary source which is not INSPIRED or PRESERVED? Which may or may not be interspersed with ERROR. Why shouldI filter the Truth through the lens of history?
PS 130:5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.
I do not need to search high low for Truth it is in The Book!
Du 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
John Smithson wrote: I am educated by the Word; I am entertained by history.Judy wrote: Truly wisdom from aboveTerry wrote: What a great line Is that original? Can I steal it?Why is it that those who say such things always seem to be those who areleast educated in history? I would take such comments more seriously ifsuch statements came from historians. I am not saying this as a jab,but to express my incredulity after reading these recent posts.The truth is that history is a body of knowledge from which all of usinterpret and understand truth, including truth found in the Bible.History is the record of the experience of others. The Bible'sfoundation is history, so to say that history is for entertainment is tosay that the Bible is for entertainment. If someone is going to
startarguing that Jesus did not exist, that David did not exist, that Mosesdid not exist, that Abraham did not exist, that the genealogical recordsof the Bible are fictitious, that Jerusalem did not exist... come-on.Such reasoning is ludicrous and is going down the wrong path. To arguethat the acceptance of these historical facts is merely entertainmentand not education is walking down the path that would consider anythingmaterial and experiential as having no basis in reality.Kevin has made several arguments about how the Book of Mormon has nohistorical basis and therefore should not be trusted. If we accept theidea that history has entertainment value but not educational value, wecompletely demolish Kevin's argument against Mormonism. Can't you allsee that?Everybody reads the Bible and interprets words from their experience.If we read the word "prayer" in the Bible, we understand that from ourown experience of
prayer. If we are educated in history, then we mighthave a more enhanced understanding of what prayer was actually like whenit is mentioned in the Bible.Now I certainly will agree that historians slant their presentation ofhistory, but that is not a reason to ignore history. It is a reason tobroaden our study of history to include other historians. It is areason to temper our historical knowledge with a trusted source ofknowledge... the Bible. Knowledge is NOT the enemy of the Word of God. Knowledge is a friendand companion of Truth. Knowledge is not for entertainment. Knowledgegives us understanding of our own personal history and gives us light.To reject knowledge is to choose darkness. To appreciate knowledge,especially historical knowledge, will lead us to wisdom and truth.Jesus and truth are inseparable in my mind, and this leads to anunderstanding that knowledge and Jesus is inseparable. To posit thathistory
is entertainment is to posit that knowledge is entertainmentwhich equates with the idea that truth is entertainment and that Jesusis entertainment. Certainly Jesus and religion and history isentertainment for some people, but not for me. More importantly, I donot think there is any Biblical justification for treating historicalknowledge as entertainment.That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, andunto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to theacknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;IN WHOM ARE HID ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE. (Colossians2:2-3 KJV)And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also arefull of goodness, FILLED WITH ALL KNOWLEDGE, able also to admonish oneanother. (Romans 15:14 KJV)But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in muchpatience, in afflictions, in necessities, in
distresses, In stripes, inimprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; Bypureness, BY KNOWLEDGE, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the HolyGhost, by love unfeigned ... (2 Corinthians 6:4-6 KJV)And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; AND TOVIRTUE KNOWLEDGE; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperancepatience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherlykindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be inyou, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren norunfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:5-8KJV)Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

Powerful, David, Preach it!

- Original Message -
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:24 AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] The value of history

 John Smithson wrote:
  I am educated by the Word;
  I am entertained by history.

 Judy wrote:
  Truly wisdom from above

 Terry wrote:
  What a great line Is that original?
  Can I steal it?

 Why is it that those who say such things always seem to be those who are
 least educated in history?  I would take such comments more seriously if
 such statements came from historians.  I am not saying this as a jab,
 but to express my incredulity after reading these recent posts.

 The truth is that history is a body of knowledge from which all of us
 interpret and understand truth, including truth found in the Bible.
 History is the record of the experience of others.  The Bible's
 foundation is history, so to say that history is for entertainment is to
 say that the Bible is for entertainment.  If someone is going to start
 arguing that Jesus did not exist, that David did not exist, that Moses
 did not exist, that Abraham did not exist, that the genealogical records
 of the Bible are fictitious, that Jerusalem did not exist... come-on.
 Such reasoning is ludicrous and is going down the wrong path.  To argue
 that the acceptance of these historical facts is merely entertainment
 and not education is walking down the path that would consider anything
 material and experiential as having no basis in reality.

 Kevin has made several arguments about how the Book of Mormon has no
 historical basis and therefore should not be trusted.  If we accept the
 idea that history has entertainment value but not educational value, we
 completely demolish Kevin's argument against Mormonism.  Can't you all
 see that?

 Everybody reads the Bible and interprets words from their experience.
 If we read the word prayer in the Bible, we understand that from our
 own experience of prayer.  If we are educated in history, then we might
 have a more enhanced understanding of what prayer was actually like when
 it is mentioned in the Bible.

 Now I certainly will agree that historians slant their presentation of
 history, but that is not a reason to ignore history.  It is a reason to
 broaden our study of history to include other historians.  It is a
 reason to temper our historical knowledge with a trusted source of
 knowledge... the Bible.

 Knowledge is NOT the enemy of the Word of God.  Knowledge is a friend
 and companion of Truth.  Knowledge is not for entertainment.  Knowledge
 gives us understanding of our own personal history and gives us light.
 To reject knowledge is to choose darkness.  To appreciate knowledge,
 especially historical knowledge, will lead us to wisdom and truth.
 Jesus and truth are inseparable in my mind, and this leads to an
 understanding that knowledge and Jesus is inseparable.  To posit that
 history is entertainment is to posit that knowledge is entertainment
 which equates with the idea that truth is entertainment and that Jesus
 is entertainment.  Certainly Jesus and religion and history is
 entertainment for some people, but not for me.  More importantly, I do
 not think there is any Biblical justification for treating historical
 knowledge as entertainment.

 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and
 unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the
 acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
 IN WHOM ARE HID ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE. (Colossians
 2:2-3 KJV)

 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are
 full of goodness, FILLED WITH ALL KNOWLEDGE, able also to admonish one
 another. (Romans 15:14 KJV)

 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much
 patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in
 imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By
 pureness, BY KNOWLEDGE, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy
 Ghost, by love unfeigned ... (2 Corinthians 6:4-6 KJV)

 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; AND TO
 VIRTUE KNOWLEDGE; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance
 patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly
 kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in
 you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor
 unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:5-8
 KJV)

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
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Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

In a message dated 3/10/2004 6:27:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Kevin has made several arguments about how the Book of Mormon has no
historical basis and therefore should not be trusted. If we accept the
idea that history has entertainment value but not educational value, we
completely demolish Kevin's argument against Mormonism. Can't you all
see that?

Wow -- David my friend Where have you gone? I was referencing spiritual truth more than anything when I made my statement "I am educated by the Word, I am entertained by history." Entertainment includes, in this case, the joy and validation I feel when I read the story of Polycarp and his willingness to die -- and I could go on and on and on --- but you see the point. I did not mean "entertainment" as something not to be taken seriously but I learn truth from the Word -- as do most of us on this list.

Re Mormonism; a couple of thoughts. One -- if someone would write off to the Smithsonian institute about the Mormon claims, they would receive back something to this effect, "Smithsonian (yes James Smithson is a family member -- rise, I am but a man) archeologist see no similarity between the archeology of the New World and the Book of Mormon." Actually I think that can be verified via the web. Man, I hope that statement remains their view. It was there a year or so ago. Secondly: I have no idea what grace means to those on this list, but grace as opposed to law is now our standard of judgment. It is at the center of the New Covenant, a covenant that is not at all like the legal one given by God to Moses (Jere 31:31-34). That being the case, THERE IS NO REASON FOR GOD TO BEGIN ANEW WITH THE MORMON CHURCH, ITSELF FRACTURED INTO THREE OR FOUR GROUPS. We are save by grace, not by works of the law. What do you suppose that means "works of the law"? It means "obedience to the law (and in the context, the law of God)." If we are in deed saved by grace apart from obedience to the law of God, why in the world would God begin anew? Sure the church is screwed up, but who would say that things were different in first century times. IT WAS SCREWED UP FROM THE GET GO, FOLKS. Look to Corinth. They had approved of gross immorality. They had lost their way in regard to the gifts of the Spirit. They had fractured into four warring groups. Their Christianity was described as carnal. Who among us would be proud to have our faith defined for all the ages to ponder as "carnal"? Anyway, you get the point. I don't believe in the Mormon church because God took care of all the problems the church might experience ON THE CROSS. To argue that point is to believe that the error that has followed the church around got God by surprise. Does ANY really believe that? I Jo 1: 8 clearly states that we are all continually in sin. We always need Him --- that is why (among other reasons) that He was raised from the dead - that resurrection created a CONTINUAL ETERNAL flow of the blood of the Lamb. It is in that sense and only in that sense that He died once and for all time for us (Heb 10:14). Anyway -- sorry. Got my preacher blood flowing.

This is a great group. I am enjoying not only your individual faith and knowledge, but the patience and acceptance that seems to prevail.

God Bless Us All

John Smithson

RE: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-10 Thread David Miller

David Miller wrote:
 The truth is that history is a body of knowledge 
 from which all of us interpret and understand truth, 
 including truth found in the Bible.

Kevin wrote:
 I do not interpret the truth of the bible 
 through the lense of history. I interpret 
 history through the lens of TRUTH the HOLY BIBLE.

Well, this is where you miss it.  Your implicit assumption here is that
the Bible is Truth and contains all truth that might be known by man.
You should be interpreting the Bible through the lens of Jesus Christ,
and Jesus Christ is found everywhere.  He is the light that lighteth
every man who comes into the world, even those who have never read the
Bible.  Jesus Christ is found in history as well as in the Bible.

Kevin wrote:
 Why should I go to a secondary source which 
 is not INSPIRED or PRESERVED? 

The Bible is not a primary source.  Where did you get that idea?  From
the Reformation idea of Sola Scriptura?

Read the Bible and see what it says.  Who is the primary source of
truth, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE?  (Hint: John 16:13)

Truth is not the Bible.  Read the Bible to learn this.  The Bible speaks
of truth dwelling inside of us.  The Bible cannot dwell inside of us.
Jesus dwells inside of us and His words dwell inside of us (the living
word not the written word) through a work of the Holy Spirit.

Hear the Bible speak about how truth dwells inside us and will be with
us forever:

The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the
truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For
the truth's sake, WHICH DWELLETH IN US, and shall be with us for ever.
(2 John 1:1-2 KJV)

Look, the Bible is the highest authority of revelation among us.  It is
so because of the testimony of HISTORY there's that dreaded word again!
:-).  But the Bible is not the primary source that Jesus spoke about
that would guide us into all truth.  Do not replace the Holy Spirit with
the Bible.  That is the error of many denominations, and the Baptists
especially!  Believe the Bible and obey it and you will see that what I
say about the Bible is true.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-10 Thread David Miller

John Smithson wrote:
 Wow  -- David my friend     Where have you gone?   
 I was referencing spiritual truth more than anything 
 when I made my statement  I am educated by the Word, 
 I am entertained by history.Entertainment includes, 
 in this case, the joy  and validation  I feel when I 
 read the story of Polycarp and his willingness to die  
 --  and I could go on and on and on   ---  but you see 
 the point.I did not mean entertainment  as 
 something not to be taken seriously but I learn truth 
 from the Word  --  as do most of us on this list.

Hmmm.  Thanks for clearing that up.  I'm not sure the others understood
you that way.  Don't you get that kind of joy and validation from
reading the Word of God too?  You juxtaposed the Word of God with
History, equating education with the Word of God and entertainment with
history, in the context of people who were marginalizing those among us
who have a knowledge of history.  

Let me ask you this, John.  Do you think we can better understand truth
and life through a knowledge of history?  Answer this and maybe I can
better understand where you are coming from.  One thing for sure, what
you said struck a chord of resonance with others here, so maybe there is
something I need to learn here.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-10 Thread Kevin Deegan

This is the core of the problem, you are essentially a Mormon in sheeps clothing.

JN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

JN 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He will guide us into: "THY WORD is TRUTH"2 Peter 1 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy"
It is more sure than a Visual appearance of God Vs 16 (Eyewitnesses)
It is more sure than than hearing His voice Vs 18
You have it the other way around, and your experience is the guide.David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
David Miller wrote: The truth is that history is a body of knowledge from which all of us interpret and understand truth, including truth found in the Bible.Kevin wrote: I do not interpret the truth of the bible through the lense of history. I interpret history through the lens of TRUTH the HOLY BIBLE.Well, this is where you miss it. Your implicit assumption here is thatthe Bible is Truth and contains all truth that might be known by man.You should be interpreting the Bible through the lens of Jesus Christ,and Jesus Christ is found everywhere. He is the light that lightethevery man who comes into the world, even those who have never read theBible. Jesus Christ is found in history as well as in the Bible.Kevin wrote: Why should I go to a secondary source which is not
INSPIRED or PRESERVED? The Bible is not a primary source. Where did you get that idea? Fromthe Reformation idea of Sola Scriptura?Read the Bible and see what it says. Who is the primary source oftruth, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE? (Hint: John 16:13)Truth is not the Bible. Read the Bible to learn this. The Bible speaksof truth dwelling inside of us. The Bible cannot dwell inside of us.Jesus dwells inside of us and His words dwell inside of us (the livingword not the written word) through a work of the Holy Spirit.Hear the Bible speak about how truth dwells inside us and will be withus forever:The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in thetruth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; Forthe truth's sake, WHICH DWELLETH IN US, and shall be with us for ever.(2 John 1:1-2 KJV)Look, the Bible is the highest authority of revelation among us. It isso because of the
testimony of HISTORY

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

In a message dated 3/10/2004 3:21:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Answer this and maybe I can
better understand where you are coming from. 

Look, I think we are having a semantics problem here more than anything. In its context, I stand by what I said. Now, if the context had been a question to this effect: which is more important - the Word or history, I would have chosen different words. When one discusses a religious matter with a Catholic, if that Catholic is knowledgeable, he might refer to a historical occasion as if that settled the question of faith (whatever it might be ) under discussion. In that context, I do not care about history. I have never read Aquinas or Luther and walked away saying to myself, I now understand what God was trying to say in the Good Book. 

Personally, and bear with me, when I have a problem, I exegete. Anyone can do it. 
It takes some doing, but anyone can learn to truly exegete (with the greek and all that) any passage of scripture and draw a reasonable conclusion There are several keys to an accurate exegete -- one is a contextual review of the passage in question and , two, a historical understanding of the times, geography, authors, primary audience and so on. In that since, truth cannot be arrived at apart from history. 


Does any of this help?


John

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-10 Thread Terry Clifton







  


Let me ask you this, John.  Do you think we can better understand truth
and life through a knowledge of history?  Answer this and maybe I can
better understand where you are coming from.  One thing for sure, what
you said struck a chord of resonance with others here, so maybe there is
something I need to learn here.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.



There is an old saying that says it well. "You can get knowledge
in college, but you get wisdom from the Word"
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

What do you get if you've done both?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 

  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:15 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The value of 
  history

Let me ask you this, John.  Do you think we can better understand truth
and life through a knowledge of history?  Answer this and maybe I can
better understand where you are coming from.  One thing for sure, what
you said struck a chord of resonance with others here, so maybe there is
something I need to learn here.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

There 
  is an old saying that says it well. "You can get knowledge in 
  college, but you get wisdom from the 
Word"Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history




I think I figured it out. Some wise ass who thinks 
he knows it all.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Wm. Taylor 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:30 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The value of 
  history
  
  What do you get if you've done both?
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Terry Clifton 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:15 
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The value of 
history


Let me ask you this, John.  Do you think we can better understand truth
and life through a knowledge of history?  Answer this and maybe I can
better understand where you are coming from.  One thing for sure, what
you said struck a chord of resonance with others here, so maybe there is
something I need to learn here.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

There 
is an old saying that says it well. "You can get knowledge in 
college, but you get wisdom from the 
Word"Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

Just kidding, just kidding.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Wm. Taylor 

  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:37 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The value of 
  history

  I think I figured it out. Some wise ass who 
  thinks he knows it all.

- Original Message - 
From: 
Wm. 
Taylor 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:30 
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The value of 
history

What do you get if you've done 
both?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 

  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:15 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The value of 
  history

  Let me ask you this, John.  Do you think we can better understand truth
and life through a knowledge of history?  Answer this and maybe I can
better understand where you are coming from.  One thing for sure, what
you said struck a chord of resonance with others here, so maybe there is
something I need to learn here.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

There 
  is an old saying that says it well. "You can get knowledge in 
  college, but you get wisdom from the 
  Word"Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

2004-03-10 Thread Terry Clifton





Wm. Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  
  What do you get if you've done both?

Judging from what they are teaching in college these days, I would
suspect that you would get a lot of conflicting information.
Terry

  

  
Let me ask you this, John.  Do you think we can better understand truth
and life through a knowledge of history?  Answer this and maybe I can
better understand where you are coming from.  One thing for sure, what
you said struck a chord of resonance with others here, so maybe there is
something I need to learn here.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.



There is an old saying that says it well. "You can get knowledge
in college, but you get wisdom from the Word"
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history




Yeah, I here you. What about the good schools 
though?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:33 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The value of 
  history
  Wm. Taylor wrote:
  



What do you get if you've done 
both?Judging from what they are teaching in college 
  these days, I would suspect that you would get a lot of conflicting 
  information.Terry
  

  Let me ask you this, John.  Do you think we can better understand truth
and life through a knowledge of history?  Answer this and maybe I can
better understand where you are coming from.  One thing for sure, what
you said struck a chord of resonance with others here, so maybe there is
something I need to learn here.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

There 
  is an old saying that says it well. "You can get knowledge in 
  college, but you get wisdom from the 
  Word"Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

In a message dated 3/10/2004 5:13:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


What do you get if you've done both?


go to heaven?

John

Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history