Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 14:01 +0100, julian wrote: as i've said earlier, i'm into the idea of a public vote on mockups (and including the current theme) made by list members within the first two 6-8 weeks of each release cycle. i think most of the time ubuntu-art is shooting in the dark, so to speak, where envisaging a best-fit default theme is concerned; choosing externally asserted design agendas over plentiful public/user opinion. With 'public' votes, you can only reach an internet-affine, high-interest part of users. Hardly anyone who's just a potential, not current user. Hardly anyone who just has better things to do. Plus forum (list and chat) dwellers can't be expected to care about marketing/branding and about the needs and wishes of other people that aren't represented directly. I don't care much about how people on the forum would vote. Such a vote doesn't even transport full opinions. I care about informed opinions and decisions. Input on the forum can be nice for tweaking details, but that's pretty much it. at which point are we allowing - and encouraging - Ubuntu users to feed back into the design process? i don't see a channel for that. People who want to get involved can come here and find information on the wiki. Now that everyone doing so is left in the situation we are - that is a problem. As things are, we have to wait for further direction while a lot of water went down the river already. the question who is our target audience makes little sense to these ends, i think. Ubuntu is a freely distributable operating system made with the ends of being as 'generally useful' (whatever that means) to as many people as possible. the 'target audience' is whoever is using Ubuntu and, as such, their thoughts on the artwork ought to be considered with sincerity accordingly. if Ubuntu-art has a target audience, then Ubuntu itself must have a target audience - something i've never seen Canonical define (and thankfully so). I do see the problem with a diverse audience. But current users and target audience are not the same thing. Ever considered to target users who don't use Ubuntu yet? Especially those who will not change the appearance defaults for the sake of changing them anyway? There also have been many saying that Ubuntu should stay away from blue. Cool, let's rule out brown and blue! fine by me. we'd be evidencing a disappointing lack of imagination if green, blue and brown based palettes described our world of possible choices. This is just silly. as the comments in those pages make clear, they just like the colours and the overall design continuity. admittedly they also like the impossible 'dock' like menu. why expect users to be profound on the topic, let alone thinking in terms of what is and isn't feasible? all they know is that they like it - and that's as good a start as any IMO. Sure. They like the colour (i wouldn't make that a plural). Must be the same majority that doesn't like brown. Ah, so we don't expect users to be profound on the topic and to be thinking in terms of what is and isn't feasible, yet would want their votes? Great. aiming high, in my opinion, is developing a design that more-than-satisfies a supposed majority of Ubuntu using public. until we know what it is most Ubuntu users actually want, we cannot have a clear design charter. Aiming high in my opinion means going through a very thorough design process. It starts with a proper briefing. -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
..on Wed, Dec 26, 2007 at 11:14:49AM +0100, Thorsten Wilms wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 00:27 +0100, julian wrote: then so be it. i strongly believe Ubuntu artwork development needs to follow the same consensual process as any other aspect of the project's development: users needs to be able to report what they consider 'bugs' in the art and design aspects and feel they are being heard. we respond to those bugs by coming up with working solution. ideally they get on board and help out. It's a new idea to me that everything runs on bug reports. What about blueprints and the sprints and summits? Regarding consensual - ever heard of the Self Appointed Benevolent Dictator for Life? ;) What would you do with a I don't like that colour bug, anyway? Change that colour and have the same report from someone else? as i've said earlier, i'm into the idea of a public vote on mockups (and including the current theme) made by list members within the first two 6-8 weeks of each release cycle. i think most of the time ubuntu-art is shooting in the dark, so to speak, where envisaging a best-fit default theme is concerned; choosing externally asserted design agendas over plentiful public/user opinion. at which point are we allowing - and encouraging - Ubuntu users to feed back into the design process? i don't see a channel for that. the question who is our target audience makes little sense to these ends, i think. Ubuntu is a freely distributable operating system made with the ends of being as 'generally useful' (whatever that means) to as many people as possible. the 'target audience' is whoever is using Ubuntu and, as such, their thoughts on the artwork ought to be considered with sincerity accordingly. if Ubuntu-art has a target audience, then Ubuntu itself must have a target audience - something i've never seen Canonical define (and thankfully so). if the bulk of users simply don't like brown - which is the fairly clearly the case - then you have a choice to either listen to the users and invite them to submit alternative designs or choose the same semi-closed myopic design-agenda the art currently has. There also have been many saying that Ubuntu should stay away from blue. Cool, let's rule out brown and blue! fine by me. we'd be evidencing a disappointing lack of imagination if green, blue and brown based palettes described our world of possible choices. Ken is approaching all this with real clarity i think: not too big to ignore the fact that if one wildly impossible mockup on a forum by a non-list-member receives 19 pages of praise, it deserves consideration and consequent feasible response. What exactly would there be to consider, regarding that mockup? I thought a bulk of users simply don't like brown? You call it wildly impossible yourself. Not to forget that it shows no windows, no widgets. It's easy to do a clean and consistent design if you leave everything out. as the comments in those pages make clear, they just like the colours and the overall design continuity. admittedly they also like the impossible 'dock' like menu. why expect users to be profound on the topic, let alone thinking in terms of what is and isn't feasible? all they know is that they like it - and that's as good a start as any IMO. this approach has worked brilliantly for other aspects of the Ubuntu project and there's no reason it can't work as well here. comparing Apple's design agenda to that of Ubuntu is absurd: this is a volunteer project remember, made by people for people. two fish with vastly different budgets and histories. Somewhat true. But should we aim low because of that? are the standards of Ubuntu users low? i don't think so. they /are/ the 'target audience' remember. without them and their opinions this whole conversation - and the questions it raises - is sheer solipsism. aiming high, in my opinion, is developing a design that more-than-satisfies a supposed majority of Ubuntu using public. until we know what it is most Ubuntu users actually want, we cannot have a clear design charter. to these ends, we need to create a central context for users to vote and comment on designs/mockups in an attempt to determine the broadest trends/vectors of opinion and of taste. -- julian oliver http://julianoliver.com http://selectparks.net -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
On Dec 27, 2007 5:45 AM, Thorsten Wilms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 14:01 +0100, julian wrote: as i've said earlier, i'm into the idea of a public vote on mockups (and including the current theme) made by list members within the first two 6-8 weeks of each release cycle. i think most of the time ubuntu-art is shooting in the dark, so to speak, where envisaging a best-fit default theme is concerned; choosing externally asserted design agendas over plentiful public/user opinion. With 'public' votes, you can only reach an internet-affine, high-interest part of users. Hardly anyone who's just a potential, not current user. Hardly anyone who just has better things to do. Plus forum (list and chat) dwellers can't be expected to care about marketing/branding and about the needs and wishes of other people that aren't represented directly. I don't care much about how people on the forum would vote. Such a vote doesn't even transport full opinions. I care about informed opinions and decisions. Input on the forum can be nice for tweaking details, but that's pretty much it. I'm against votes as well; There fundamentally flawed. If there are 3 choices that are all bad, why force users to make a bad choice. We'll know the best of the worst choices, but it will still be bad. Now you could say people need a place where they can openly comment and debate the designs, but then you get the forums - where people bicker, get ostracized, and leave. Every topic I read has some prick saying that design is horrible. The most dependable source, I believe, is blogs, journals, news and review websites. They actively disassemble every single detail. They tell us what's wrong because it's in their interest to tell their users what to expect. If a blog is critical of our look feel, and it winds up on Google, it means because people are linking and reading it. Google works on links, which is essentially an internet-wide vote. How perfect is that? at which point are we allowing - and encouraging - Ubuntu users to feed back into the design process? i don't see a channel for that. People who want to get involved can come here and find information on the wiki. Now that everyone doing so is left in the situation we are - that is a problem. As things are, we have to wait for further direction while a lot of water went down the river already. The wiki is for contributions, and the Mailing list is hardcore. Forums are the most public space we have for comments. Overall if you're feeding back into the design process at even one of these avenues, it's likely that you're being watched and noted. the question who is our target audience makes little sense to these ends, i think. Ubuntu is a freely distributable operating system made with the ends of being as 'generally useful' (whatever that means) to as many people as possible. the 'target audience' is whoever is using Ubuntu and, as such, their thoughts on the artwork ought to be considered with sincerity accordingly. if Ubuntu-art has a target audience, then Ubuntu itself must have a target audience - something i've never seen Canonical define (and thankfully so). I do see the problem with a diverse audience. But current users and target audience are not the same thing. Ever considered to target users who don't use Ubuntu yet? Especially those who will not change the appearance defaults for the sake of changing them anyway? The problem with trying to remain diverse is the same if you try to butter too much bread. You'll become thin and bland. My personal opinion is to satisfy who you've got first, and try to expand with the leeway you've got. It would be better to get glowing reviews from a smaller crowd and slowly grow, than try to make it focused for some else who won't hear about it. Even still, both of those options are better than having a mud-project that even makes loyalists nervous. There also have been many saying that Ubuntu should stay away from blue. Cool, let's rule out brown and blue! fine by me. we'd be evidencing a disappointing lack of imagination if green, blue and brown based palettes described our world of possible choices. This is just silly. If we go with what's cool at the time, then we blend into the crowd. If we go with what's unique, were ostracized. ... This is why all new suburban homes have white walls. as the comments in those pages make clear, they just like the colours and the overall design continuity. admittedly they also like the impossible 'dock' like menu. why expect users to be profound on the topic, let alone thinking in terms of what is and isn't feasible? all they know is that they like it - and that's as good a start as any IMO. Sure. They like the colour (i wouldn't make that a plural). Must be the same majority that doesn't like brown. Ah, so we don't expect users to be profound on the topic and to be thinking in
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
..on Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 01:59:53PM -0800, Ken Vermette wrote: On Dec 27, 2007 5:45 AM, Thorsten Wilms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 14:01 +0100, julian wrote: as i've said earlier, i'm into the idea of a public vote on mockups (and including the current theme) made by list members within the first two 6-8 weeks of each release cycle. i think most of the time ubuntu-art is shooting in the dark, so to speak, where envisaging a best-fit default theme is concerned; choosing externally asserted design agendas over plentiful public/user opinion. With 'public' votes, you can only reach an internet-affine, high-interest part of users. Hardly anyone who's just a potential, not current user. Hardly anyone who just has better things to do. Plus forum (list and chat) dwellers can't be expected to care about marketing/branding and about the needs and wishes of other people that aren't represented directly. I don't care much about how people on the forum would vote. Such a vote doesn't even transport full opinions. I care about informed opinions and decisions. Input on the forum can be nice for tweaking details, but that's pretty much it. I'm against votes as well; There fundamentally flawed. If there are 3 choices that are all bad, why force users to make a bad choice. We'll know the best of the worst choices, but it will still be bad. votes are always 'flawed', just as any democracy is: the so-called right are more statistically like to vote, a vocal minority on the internet is likely to dominate an opinion channel. nonetheless i think it's important to not be too black and white about this. at present we have incidental, contingent feedback, rather than a directed context for Ubuntu users to suggest mockups and express criticism. of course there will be organised bias and abuse - just as there is anywhere opinion finds voice on the internet - but it is still better than the patchy guesswork we have now. it's clear from reading comments in forums that many who suggest mockups aren't even aware of this mailing list. even mockups to this list are distributed across several wikis and sites in a way that is not productive when getting a sense of the overall scope of contributed designs. what i'm talking about is not too dissimilar from this: http://gimp-brainstorm.blogspot.com/ .. but with comments and a section dedicated to feasible default theme candidates. a rating system may be useful also, though not as a statistically deterministic guide. even if due to sheer numbers of submissions many are unseen and/or ignored, i'm sure we'd see inspired contributions that would only positively stimulate the design directions taken by contributors to this list. how would this not be generally useful, all things considered? -- julian oliver http://julianoliver.com http://selectparks.net -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
I think we should do some forum vote. Not to make the whole decision, but as a guideline. Ubuntuforums is rather big, so the feedback would probably be pretty good as well. From noobs to geeks... Also, in some time, we should have some prototype, and be able to test it on target users, and determine their response, how well it works for solving standard tasks etc. That's what Microsoft and Apple and others probably do. Testing it on ourselves, even if we are many in numbers, can make us blind for some important usability issues. Therefore I say we need some sort of qualitative testing on certain subjects :) - Thomas L.G -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
julian wrote: even mockups to this list are distributed across several wikis and sites in a way that is not productive when getting a sense of the overall scope of contributed designs. what i'm talking about is not too dissimilar from this: http://gimp-brainstorm.blogspot.com/ .. but with comments and a section dedicated to feasible default theme candidates. a rating system may be useful also, though not as a statistically deterministic guide. even if due to sheer numbers of submissions many are unseen and/or ignored, i'm sure we'd see inspired contributions that would only positively stimulate the design directions taken by contributors to this list. how would this not be generally useful, all things considered? This is honestly just adding to the quagmire here. The people that use the other places like wiki's wont move to yet another site. The wiki has _always_ been _the_ place for official submissions/work. People have taken it upon themselves to move it away from that. Adding another option isn't the way to go. Back to the topic... The general user is our audience and as that is too broad to try to please. A concept would be best to define and go with that. Hopefully, we hear something on that soon. -Cory \m/ -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 00:27 +0100, julian wrote: then so be it. i strongly believe Ubuntu artwork development needs to follow the same consensual process as any other aspect of the project's development: users needs to be able to report what they consider 'bugs' in the art and design aspects and feel they are being heard. we respond to those bugs by coming up with working solution. ideally they get on board and help out. It's a new idea to me that everything runs on bug reports. What about blueprints and the sprints and summits? Regarding consensual - ever heard of the Self Appointed Benevolent Dictator for Life? ;) What would you do with a I don't like that colour bug, anyway? Change that colour and have the same report from someone else? if the bulk of users simply don't like brown - which is the fairly clearly the case - then you have a choice to either listen to the users and invite them to submit alternative designs or choose the same semi-closed myopic design-agenda the art currently has. There also have been many saying that Ubuntu should stay away from blue. Cool, let's rule out brown and blue! Ken is approaching all this with real clarity i think: not too big to ignore the fact that if one wildly impossible mockup on a forum by a non-list-member receives 19 pages of praise, it deserves consideration and consequent feasible response. What exactly would there be to consider, regarding that mockup? I thought a bulk of users simply don't like brown? You call it wildly impossible yourself. Not to forget that it shows no windows, no widgets. It's easy to do a clean and consistent design if you leave everything out. this approach has worked brilliantly for other aspects of the Ubuntu project and there's no reason it can't work as well here. comparing Apple's design agenda to that of Ubuntu is absurd: this is a volunteer project remember, made by people for people. two fish with vastly different budgets and histories. Somewhat true. But should we aim low because of that? -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
On Tue, 2007-12-25 at 21:37 +0100, Damian Vila wrote: But the problem is not at brown vs. blue (or green or whatever). I've never questioned the use of color. I rather constrained to the given guidelines. And I believe this is the way I should work if I want to collaborate with Ubuntu. What we have in terms of guidelines seems already willy-nilly, as there's no strategy defined, no audience, no message, no goal. What I would like to see is more information. And a clear set of guidelines, not just a color palette. Yes! Who wouldn't agree? I don't know, maybe I'm asking for too much. But I believe that we are not here to define the audience, or even the concept. I believe those roles are assigned to other people that work for Canonical. We are here to help reach a reasonable good and professional rendition of that concept for the next version of Ubuntu. It would be preferable. But if Canonical doesn't deliver, there would be the option for us to propose a strategy/concept/design to them. -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
On Mon, 2007-12-24 at 10:04 -0800, Troy James Sobotka wrote: Thorsten Wilms wrote: Having a clearly defined target audience would be of advantage. But I have to say that during my industrial design studies, this part was mostly guesswork. Then you didn't go to a very good school or for long enough. Well, not everyone can be so terrifically well educated as you are. For projects taking 4 months max, the time you can spend worrying about your target audience is quite limited. You can do a few interviews, maybe a little survey and otherwise hope to find some statistics out there. The needs and wants of the audience and any bias in taste remain assumptions. Except if you can enlighten me with methods I don't know yet. We defined a number of users and thought about their needs and wants. That's better than having no structured base at all. For an operating system environment, the target audience can be very diverse. Even if we got to know (as opposed to just assume) that one important fraction of the audience is mothers between 40 and 50, who mainly browse the web, use email and do a little office work ... what exactly would that tell us about the style to go for, the means of communication to express what we want to say? You are completely missing the point here. You can both define a 'desired' audience or cater to your existing audience if they are different groups. You missed my point. It wasn't about several distinct groups in the audience, it's about the question what exactly any single well defined group in the audience could tell us that is relevant to theming. The usefulness of a defined target audience is rather obvious for marketing and the selection of software to ship. But I really wonder what can be in there for theming? We must assume a diverse audience, anything else wouldn't be in line with bug #1 and Linux For Human Beings. That points in a general mainstream appeal direction with all the problems we have without a defined audience already. I'm not saying we shouldn't worry about this at all, I'm just trying to either set the right expectations or learn something new to correct my opinion. Apple has a disproportionate number of artists and designers under their umbrella -- why? Because they have constantly catered to the needs of that group and treated them as 'important'. This has quite a lot to do with features and history (pioneering WYSIWYG and b/w but high-res displays), I think. Automobile designers also must carefully focus on how they present a product -- a rugged ATV styled truck needs to be attractive to the quotient that is going to purchase it and emotionally invest in the success of the product. Hmm. What type of car would Ubuntu be? ;) Unfortunately, in the end, the default installations presence and audience are outside of the scope of our realm and lays in the hands of the higher ups. Are you saying we should leave it all to them and do nothing until some artwork direction including target audience is presented to us? If not, I look forward to your constructive contribution to defining the target audience. -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
Troy James Sobotka escribió: The point of choosing an audience is not exactly as murky as you wish to paint it. It is perhaps one of the most valuable discussions this list has _ever_ seen. Unfortunately, in the end, the default installations presence and audience are outside of the scope of our realm and lays in the hands of the higher ups. Sincerely, TJS I agree with Troy. The ultimate question could be, are you ready to design for Ubuntu's audience?. That means listening, and listening to everybody. Is Ubuntu's artwork direction in the hands and will of the audience? If you really want some feedback from Ubuntu users, then the list is not the place to be... And Ubuntu won't be brown, that's for sure. With so clear direction and goals, audience is something that's already been decided, I believe. Merry Chistmas and a Happy New Year for you all. Damian -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thorsten Wilms wrote: For projects taking 4 months max, the time you can spend worrying about your target audience is quite limited. Perhaps ignoring the time constraints is worthy? Maybe get the 'broad' strokes in place then finesse in the details. You can do a few interviews, maybe a little survey and otherwise hope to find some statistics out there. The needs and wants of the audience and any bias in taste remain assumptions. Ubuntu has an audience currently -- and without being too stereotypical, it is probably a slim margin of tech heads. We are also free to _choose_ and audience and attempt to address them. (By 'we' I mean Ubuntu -- not _us_ in the team.) We defined a number of users and thought about their needs and wants. That's better than having no structured base at all. 100% agreement here. And far more than what Ubuntu currently has. For an operating system environment, the target audience can be very diverse. Is this relevant? Of course it is a computer and can do much, but the default presentation should be strictly geared toward trying to attain emotional attachment, investment, and 'need' factor in a given group. I wonder if watering down a presentation to please everyone is a good path to follow in this regard? You missed my point. It wasn't about several distinct groups in the audience, it's about the question what exactly any single well defined group in the audience could tell us that is relevant to theming. The usefulness of a defined target audience is rather obvious for marketing and the selection of software to ship. But I really wonder what can be in there for theming? How do you think a typical 24 year old male construction worker would want his default installation to look? How about that 35 year old mother? Do you think we could draw a distinct difference in an agreed style between say, 16somethings and perhaps 25somethings for a given 'concept'? If Ubuntu actually were to embrace a concept for a given user set, I would indeed think that it was relevant to the theme. Apple's brushed aluminum interface didn't happen by chance, for example. In fact, the interface was a perfect match to the 'style' and 'presence' of the titanium laptop / desktop line. Being an extension of the overarching 'concept', is it wild speculation to suggest that it might be relevant indeed? Apple has a disproportionate number of artists and designers under their umbrella -- why? Because they have constantly catered to the needs of that group and treated them as 'important'. This has quite a lot to do with features and history (pioneering WYSIWYG and b/w but high-res displays), I think. And those happen by fluke? Remember, choosing your audience you wish to attract means appealing to their sensibilities, needs, desires, wishes, and style. Absolutely complicated and not exactly easy. Apple placed value on that demographic and the results are shown in the people it attracted. Automobile designers also must carefully focus on how they present a product -- a rugged ATV styled truck needs to be attractive to the quotient that is going to purchase it and emotionally invest in the success of the product. Hmm. What type of car would Ubuntu be? ;) Perhaps a sarcastic question, but an interesting one I would say... Unfortunately, in the end, the default installations presence and audience are outside of the scope of our realm and lays in the hands of the higher ups. Are you saying we should leave it all to them and do nothing until some artwork direction including target audience is presented to us? Yes. Picking an 'audience' for a presentation is well beyond our scope and up to the Canonical folks. If they be willing... ;) Sincerely, TJS -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHcT3Oar0EasPEHjQRAvomAKDJrpVU8xo0oPiNB9wAm7dWPT488gCfWg6a NNUFe6Fq05GM8CRHJz4Lraw= =O14m -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Damian Vila wrote: And Ubuntu won't be brown, that's for sure. I wonder if the trend toward eco friendly products could be embraced by a very 'earthy' feeling operating system. (Well 'earthy' in the 'idea', not the presentation) Unbleached CD packaging with a hand crafted designer feel? Watermarked raw feeling papers? It is a sad day that people throw out one of the fundamental distinctly positive aspects of Ubuntu without actually putting it in the hands of a talented and creative individual or individuals. Many designers would probably come to Ubuntu and have to push a mountain to get to having an earth toned presentation accepted, and yet we are willing to throw it out with the very real probability that changing a colour will result in the exact same fundamental flaws and issues. Sincerely, TJS -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHcT8gar0EasPEHjQRAsBuAJ95QuxXmyB1HoRGgWcvdvOiCxIdngCeL753 PWcXJG52ReLgh//2EJpLcdA= =QS5O -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
..on Tue, Dec 25, 2007 at 06:19:28PM +0100, Damian Vila wrote: Troy James Sobotka escribió: The point of choosing an audience is not exactly as murky as you wish to paint it. It is perhaps one of the most valuable discussions this list has _ever_ seen. Unfortunately, in the end, the default installations presence and audience are outside of the scope of our realm and lays in the hands of the higher ups. Sincerely, TJS I agree with Troy. The ultimate question could be, are you ready to design for Ubuntu's audience?. That means listening, and listening to everybody. Is Ubuntu's artwork direction in the hands and will of the audience? If you really want some feedback from Ubuntu users, then the list is not the place to be... And Ubuntu won't be brown, that's for sure. then so be it. i strongly believe Ubuntu artwork development needs to follow the same consensual process as any other aspect of the project's development: users needs to be able to report what they consider 'bugs' in the art and design aspects and feel they are being heard. we respond to those bugs by coming up with working solution. ideally they get on board and help out. if the bulk of users simply don't like brown - which is the fairly clearly the case - then you have a choice to either listen to the users and invite them to submit alternative designs or choose the same semi-closed myopic design-agenda the art currently has. i teach with Ubuntu in a free-software art and design context in universities and art centres: very rarely is the Human theme actually retained on computers students have dedicated to them for workshops/courses longer than 3 days. some love it, most simply don't. that's my culturally relative experience. Ken is approaching all this with real clarity i think: not too big to ignore the fact that if one wildly impossible mockup on a forum by a non-list-member receives 19 pages of praise, it deserves consideration and consequent feasible response. this approach has worked brilliantly for other aspects of the Ubuntu project and there's no reason it can't work as well here. comparing Apple's design agenda to that of Ubuntu is absurd: this is a volunteer project remember, made by people for people. two fish with vastly different budgets and histories. cheers, -- julian oliver http://julianoliver.com http://selectparks.net -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
On Sun, 2007-12-23 at 22:58 -0600, xl cheese wrote: That is the question we need to ask. Do we want to target noobs to linux or the vets of linux? Maybe I'm wrong, but new linux and novice computer users are typically enticed with eye candy. It's the veteran linux users that like things functional and plain. I don't think those are the right categories. Don't forget that Ubuntu strives for more market share. The term noob is a sign of the wrong mindset. Inexperienced users would be hurt the most by a 'bold' design. Having a clearly defined target audience would be of advantage. But I have to say that during my industrial design studies, this part was mostly guesswork. We defined a number of users and thought about their needs and wants. That's better than having no structured base at all. For an operating system environment, the target audience can be very diverse. Even if we got to know (as opposed to just assume) that one important fraction of the audience is mothers between 40 and 50, who mainly browse the web, use email and do a little office work ... what exactly would that tell us about the style to go for, the means of communication to express what we want to say? Still, how could we define our target audience? Gender: Female, male, everything in between or outside ;) I'm not at all sure how and to what extent the female tastes and needs in visual communication differ from the male. I only know that colour-deficient vision is much more common in men. Nationality/Region: The world is the market, but it would be great if we could get a grip on some cultural differences, as the whole software world is ... western-centric. What can we express with colours that will not be understood differently in some part of the world? Mainly for icons: What artifacts and metaphors can be used for the largest part of the world? Age Education Occupation Interests and Hobbies A quick stab at a list: - Home user - Enthusiast user - Developer - Office worker - Student ... probably more and each one would have to be fleshed out. We could build personas http://www.cooper.com/insights/journal_of_design/articles/perfecting_your_personas_1.html But to not just guess, some research is needed. I tend to think Canonical should do that, not an outside group. Closely related to the target audience is the environment: - Private and/or professional use of Ubuntu? - Room and furniture. - Organisation (hierarchy, department, team, family ...) We could tackle what do we want to say? with only a vague idea of the audience. I don't think it would be all that bad for the results. Part of the what to say is rather technical: - What can be done with a widget (try to always use the same 'words' for the same kind of action)? - Which window has focus? - What's disabled? - Where can you drag a window? - What is the scope of some controls or how are they grouped? An example: Title bar and menu bar of windows shouldn't be unified as long as you can't drag the window on the free space of the menu bar. Because you don't say one thing and do another. Merry Christmas or just happy holidays :) Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
Firstly Merry Christmas - I am off and wont be back 'till after. Hope santa is good to you all! Secondly I agree. When I undertake a traditional graphic design project or website, I'll usually do a mockup, the client will then say if they like it/hate it and suggest changes. When your creating something it's hard to see the wood for the trees a lot of the time and you lack the ability to take a new look at it as you know it so well already. It takes a critical outside eye to bring your attention to everything you missed. It would be a shame to get to the end of the process and whoever in charge says 'nope, I don't like any' when the situation could have easily been avoided with regular feedback from the people up top. xl cheese wrote: That is the question we need to ask. Do we want to target noobs to linux or the vets of linux? Maybe I'm wrong, but new linux and novice computer users are typically enticed with eye candy. It's the veteran linux users that like things functional and plain. I would submit that we want to bias the artwork towards new users and have it on the bold side of things. Long time users generally change the default right off the bat anyway. At any rate, I think it's safe to say that we, the Art Team, are getting anxious for the folks on top of the totem pole to throw us a bone and show us something official. At least a hint of what they're thinking would be nice! ;) That way our enthusiasm and efforts would be directed at producing relevant fruit. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
On Mon, 2007-12-24 at 11:18 +0100, Thorsten Wilms wrote: ... I had users and environment, so I should also mention tasks. Quick draft: - Research - Browsing the web - Communicate - Email - Chat - VoIP - Video conferencing - Create - Graphics - Photography - Graphic design - Digital painting - 3d - Video - Audio - Office - Writing letters - Documentation - Doing Calculations - Play Now what could that mean for theming? - Work well with black on white text documents - Work well with typical websites - Provide a neutral backdrop for graphics work ...? Such a list should be part of an over-arching strategy. Theming should be embedded into strategy and interaction/interface design, anyway -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thorsten Wilms wrote: Having a clearly defined target audience would be of advantage. But I have to say that during my industrial design studies, this part was mostly guesswork. Then you didn't go to a very good school or for long enough. We defined a number of users and thought about their needs and wants. That's better than having no structured base at all. For an operating system environment, the target audience can be very diverse. Even if we got to know (as opposed to just assume) that one important fraction of the audience is mothers between 40 and 50, who mainly browse the web, use email and do a little office work ... what exactly would that tell us about the style to go for, the means of communication to express what we want to say? You are completely missing the point here. You can both define a 'desired' audience or cater to your existing audience if they are different groups. Apple has a disproportionate number of artists and designers under their umbrella -- why? Because they have constantly catered to the needs of that group and treated them as 'important'. Automobile designers also must carefully focus on how they present a product -- a rugged ATV styled truck needs to be attractive to the quotient that is going to purchase it and emotionally invest in the success of the product. The point of choosing an audience is not exactly as murky as you wish to paint it. It is perhaps one of the most valuable discussions this list has _ever_ seen. Unfortunately, in the end, the default installations presence and audience are outside of the scope of our realm and lays in the hands of the higher ups. Sincerely, TJS -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHb/SWar0EasPEHjQRAvlqAKCeA4VgEjLSl+j1sh23rAOdCV9IFwCgrRWT gME5Zme31L07mLBEIU3bf74= =hDKS -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
[ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
That is the question we need to ask. Do we want to target noobs to linux or the vets of linux? Maybe I'm wrong, but new linux and novice computer users are typically enticed with eye candy. It's the veteran linux users that like things functional and plain. I would submit that we want to bias the artwork towards new users and have it on the bold side of things. Long time users generally change the default right off the bat anyway. At any rate, I think it's safe to say that we, the Art Team, are getting anxious for the folks on top of the totem pole to throw us a bone and show us something official. At least a hint of what they're thinking would be nice! ;) That way our enthusiasm and efforts would be directed at producing relevant fruit. On side note, does anyone else notice that as soon as any theme or background gets the default label stuck on it the artwork becomes inferior in the eyes of users? _ i’m is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making a difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_Cause_Effect -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
