Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Boris Malkov  wrote:
> I'm using Ubuntu since 8.04, and have noticed something. It was improving 
> with every single release,
> but since 12.04 I don't see neither the progress nor at least stability: it 
> is getting worse.

I am not an Ubuntu developer, but as far as I know, lately most things
happening, happen in the background / under the hood (e.g. X11
replacement). And of course this might cause more bugs rising
(temporary). And yes, I also experience some issues, such as
[Bug 792085] Re: Automatic remount of safely removed USB 3.0 drive
which finally got fixed (even if on launchpad it is not yet marked as
fix released).
But I am still fine with the overall stability and I use Ubuntu all
day on my primary work laptop and several other machines/devices.


> The 16.04 tortures me with many glitches on the daily basis, and I found here 
> a bug report already submitted by other people for every
> problem I have. Most of those reports are YEARS old and still are UNASSIGNED.

I found 2 bugs you are following which are older. One is Bug #304345:
"File chooser dialog doesn't provide network access" - which is a
duplicate of another bug which has been fixed. The other is Bug
#971219: "Remmina Crashes with when connecting to some RDP hosts"
which in reality is not an Ubuntu issue only. People write that it
depends on the certificate on the remote Windows machine. And oh yes,
there is a third issue that is related to launchpad itself. Is that
what you identify as reduced overall Ubuntu stability? What I see at
co-workers and customers what they fight with Windows, I am still way
better off with Linux.


> This tells me: Ubuntu doesn't give a s**t to user experience and bug reports 
> any more.
> So I think this particular bug will never be resolved, at list because no one 
> cares.
> And, btw, Ubuntu became so s**tty that I switched to other distro after many 
> years with Ubuntu.

My experience is that the better details on a problem you serve the
better the answer is, what you get.
So maybe try to provide more exact details on your problems to help
the developers finding the bug faster.

Best regards, Martin.

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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

PC and laptop times are not over, no, tablets and mobile phones are
not an alternative. Alternative devices may obsolete a PC at many
places, but: For those who want a PC or laptop if they go to a shop,
they still pretty everywhere only find Windows. There should be some
hardware that comes preinstalled with Linux/Ubuntu (and maybe not only
the old slow hardware), but this is not the case (neither for the
older hardware).

So this bug is very clearly not-solved. It might be obsolete, if
Android is used on PCs also and even the CAD users have there software
running on Android also.

Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> A few years ago some study allegedly found that 80%
> of computer usage is now done using tablets and phones.

You mean 80 % of the computer usage that nobody really needs is now
done using tablets and phones. Apart from storekeepers that nowadays
do their checklists and confirm their good receipts via tablet I
barely see people doing their real work via phone or tablet (at least
apart from writing emails). Or would you say 80 % of the computer work
is e-mailing. mmmhh - could even be... ;-)

> [...]
> This bug was first raised when the word "desktop" covered all the
> form-factors that could be used in small-business and by families or other
> private usage.  Nowadays the term "desktop", even if expanded to include
> laptops, only represents under 20% of that market.

My experience is, that everybody still uses desktop or laptop - at
least for the more sophisticated work. I don't know a single person
who owns just a phone or tablet and not also a desktop or laptop
computer. Of course I would put desktops and laptop together in the
group. Anyway, Bug 1 is not fixed yet!

Best regards, Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[zakzor]

"So wearables (incl watches) (...) are likely to keep using unix-based
systems, usually specifically gnu"

Tizen is one of them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen

Regards,
zakzor

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 12:35 Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> Hi :)
> While this is still true and unlikely to change many people are using
> chromebooks, tablets, phones and other devices to do things that they
> previously would have had to use a desktop to do.  Laptops have also become
> much more popular too.  A few years ago some study allegedly found that 80%
> of computer usage is now done using tablets and phones.
>
> For tablets and phones gnu is king.  Android is a flavour of
> gnu on a layer of java.  Blackberry is gnu, and of course
> Chrome is too.  iPads and iPhones, really anything Apple, is a flavour of
> BSD, which is another unix-based system = practically a sister/brother of
> gnu  Apparently only about 1% of hand-helds (tablets and phones etc)
> use a Windows-based system.  Windows has one major disadvantage in trying
> to run on hand-helds which is that it's a huge great big bloated behemoth
> despite their best efforts at slashing it down-to-size.  It just about
> manages to cope on laptops but when they tried to push it onto netbooks it
> performed so badly that it killed the entire netbook market.  We see some
> resurgence of the netbook market through Chromebooks but people are still
> wary of that form-factor, thanks to Windows.
>
> Windows are attempting to rewrite Windows to work on Arm chips, having
> recently abandoned their earlier recent attempt, but it's likely they will
> still need vast amounts of resources, such as one would reasonably expect
> from a desktop/laptop - and still not work on other form-factors.
>
> So wearables (incl watches) and handhelds, and chromebooks are likely to
> keep using unix-based systems, usually specifically gnu
>
>
> This bug was first raised when the word "desktop" covered all the
> form-factors that could be used in small-business and by families or other
> private usage.  Nowadays the term "desktop", even if expanded to include
> laptops, only represents under 20% of that market.
>
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
> On 13 December 2016 at 14:40, Luca Ciavatta 
> wrote:
>
> > I confirm this bug.
> > I visited some local PC stores (middle-sized city in Italy) and I
> > attempted to buy a machine without any proprietary software.
> >
> > All the computers on sale had proprietary software.
> >
> > --
> > You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> > report.
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> >
> > Title:
> >   Microsoft has a majority market share
> >
> > Status in Clubdistro:
> >   Confirmed
> > Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
> >   Confirmed
> > Status in LibreOffice:
> >   New
> > Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
> >   Invalid
> > Status in dylan.NET:
> >   Invalid
> > Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
> >   Confirmed
> > Status in Ichthux:
> >   Invalid
> > Status in JAK LINUX:
> >   Invalid
> > Status in LibreOffice:
> >   In Progress
> > Status in Skylinux:
> >   New
> > Status in Linux Mint:
> >   In Progress
> > Status in The Linux OS Project:
> >   In Progress
> > Status in Neobot:
> >   New
> > Status in Novabot:
> >   New
> > Status in OpenOffice:
> >   In Progress
> > Status in Tabuntu:
> >   Invalid
> > Status in Tivion:
> >   Invalid
> > Status in Tv-Player:
> >   Invalid
> > Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team:
> >   In Progress
> > Status in Wine:
> >   Unknown
> > Status in Ubuntu:
> >   Fix Released
> > Status in Arch Linux:
> >   Confirmed
> > Status in Baltix:
> >   Confirmed
> > Status in Debian:
> >   In Progress
> > Status in Fedora:
> >   Confirmed
> > Status in Fluxbuntu:
> >   Confirmed
> > Status in openSUSE:
> >   In Progress
> > Status in Tilix:
> >   New
> >
> > Bug description:
> >   See Mark's closure comment here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/
> > ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
> >   --
> >
> >   Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
> >   marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
> >   to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, "Our work is
> >   driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
> >   all."
> >
> >   "Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software
> > gives everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with
> > whoever they like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the
> > spectrum it enables the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective
> > experience and expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the
> > other, we are able to give access to essential software for those who
> > couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by
> > individuals and organisations all over the world."
> >* http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy
> >
> >   Non-free software leaves users at 

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
While this is still true and unlikely to change many people are using
chromebooks, tablets, phones and other devices to do things that they
previously would have had to use a desktop to do.  Laptops have also become
much more popular too.  A few years ago some study allegedly found that 80%
of computer usage is now done using tablets and phones.

For tablets and phones gnu is king.  Android is a flavour of
gnu on a layer of java.  Blackberry is gnu, and of course
Chrome is too.  iPads and iPhones, really anything Apple, is a flavour of
BSD, which is another unix-based system = practically a sister/brother of
gnu  Apparently only about 1% of hand-helds (tablets and phones etc)
use a Windows-based system.  Windows has one major disadvantage in trying
to run on hand-helds which is that it's a huge great big bloated behemoth
despite their best efforts at slashing it down-to-size.  It just about
manages to cope on laptops but when they tried to push it onto netbooks it
performed so badly that it killed the entire netbook market.  We see some
resurgence of the netbook market through Chromebooks but people are still
wary of that form-factor, thanks to Windows.

Windows are attempting to rewrite Windows to work on Arm chips, having
recently abandoned their earlier recent attempt, but it's likely they will
still need vast amounts of resources, such as one would reasonably expect
from a desktop/laptop - and still not work on other form-factors.

So wearables (incl watches) and handhelds, and chromebooks are likely to
keep using unix-based systems, usually specifically gnu


This bug was first raised when the word "desktop" covered all the
form-factors that could be used in small-business and by families or other
private usage.  Nowadays the term "desktop", even if expanded to include
laptops, only represents under 20% of that market.

Regards from
Tom :)


On 13 December 2016 at 14:40, Luca Ciavatta 
wrote:

> I confirm this bug.
> I visited some local PC stores (middle-sized city in Italy) and I
> attempted to buy a machine without any proprietary software.
>
> All the computers on sale had proprietary software.
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> report.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
>
> Title:
>   Microsoft has a majority market share
>
> Status in Clubdistro:
>   Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
>   Confirmed
> Status in LibreOffice:
>   New
> Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
>   Invalid
> Status in dylan.NET:
>   Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
>   Confirmed
> Status in Ichthux:
>   Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX:
>   Invalid
> Status in LibreOffice:
>   In Progress
> Status in Skylinux:
>   New
> Status in Linux Mint:
>   In Progress
> Status in The Linux OS Project:
>   In Progress
> Status in Neobot:
>   New
> Status in Novabot:
>   New
> Status in OpenOffice:
>   In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu:
>   Invalid
> Status in Tivion:
>   Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player:
>   Invalid
> Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team:
>   In Progress
> Status in Wine:
>   Unknown
> Status in Ubuntu:
>   Fix Released
> Status in Arch Linux:
>   Confirmed
> Status in Baltix:
>   Confirmed
> Status in Debian:
>   In Progress
> Status in Fedora:
>   Confirmed
> Status in Fluxbuntu:
>   Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE:
>   In Progress
> Status in Tilix:
>   New
>
> Bug description:
>   See Mark's closure comment here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/
> ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
>   --
>
>   Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
>   marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
>   to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, "Our work is
>   driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
>   all."
>
>   "Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software
> gives everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with
> whoever they like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the
> spectrum it enables the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective
> experience and expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the
> other, we are able to give access to essential software for those who
> couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by
> individuals and organisations all over the world."
>* http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy
>
>   Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
>   concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
>   the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
>   innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
>   anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
>   practices.
>
>   This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
>   Steps to repeat:
>
>   1. Visit a local PC store.
>   2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary 

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Post scriptum: IMHO as the description of bug 1 shows it is pretty
obvious that the bug is not solved so I do not understand why it's
status is "fix released".

>   This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
>   Steps to repeat:
>
>   1. Visit a local PC store.
>   2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.
>
>   What happens:
>
>   Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
>   installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
>   system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
>   proprietary.
>
>   What should happen:
>
>   A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.

This is simply not the case. Sorry for repeating, but it seems to me
that somehow the original idea has been forgotten. And a smartphone is
not a PC and a tablet isn't either! I do not know a single person
using a smart phone or tablet as a replacement for the PC - in best
case those mobile devices are used _in addition to_ PC or laptop.

Best regards, Martin.

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Neither the way Microsoft will/says/wants bringing Ubuntu to Windows
nor the rise of Android on the mobile phones is IMHO an argument to
mark Bug 1 solved.

Even from the usability of the basic operating system I think there
are still to-dos left to make more people move to Linux - apart from
the bigger problem of 3rd-party Windows-only-application lockin and
dependency of formats that are Windows-only (only yesterday I was
confronted with a QuarkXpress user and couldn't tell, what Linux app
can open and edit them).

I mean there are basics like this:
http://askubuntu.com/questions/285493/how-to-show-full-date-and-time-in-nautilus-files-3-6-list-view
- Not sure if everything fixed in
https://launchpad.net/~mc3man/+archive/ubuntu/nauty-mods has found
it's way into the latest Ubuntu 14.04 and into 16.04 (will check when
it's out).

Or like this:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/792085

There are other annoyances and none of them will hold back those who
know well about the benefits of Linux, but it may hold back new users
when they try Ubuntu for a week and struggle with such basic things.
And as long as users do not definitely request and demand for Linux
they won't get it from the hardware vendors because they don't care if
the users don't care.

Best regards, Martin.

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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Randall Ross]

The fix for Bug #1 is to spread free software everywhere. With the
recent Ubuntu in/on Windows announcement, (many many many) millions of
people who couldn't access or participate in Ubuntu will soon have that
ability, giving them a glimpse into our world and a chance they've never
had.

We're making good progress. Or, stated more poetically:
/
//“There is a crack in everything.//
//That's how the light gets in.”
//  -- Leonard Cohen
/
Cheers,
Randall./
/

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Shaun Husain]

In 2013 Mark Shuttleworth marked the bug as resolved in Ubuntu since
Android and ios have created diversity in the market which defeats the
issue despite Ubuntu itself not having a direct hand in the shift.  Also,
mentioned in the post was the fact that the desktop os should focus on
creating a better experience for the developer and end user.
On Oct 24, 2015 5:20 PM, "rued...@gmail.com"  wrote:

> I noticed that it hasn't been mentioned, but Microsoft Windows Mobile
> has failed to take hold of the mobile market.
>
> That is some serious progress on this bug.   Devs are realizing that
> Windows is not superior.
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> report.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
>
> Title:
>   Microsoft has a majority market share
>
> Status in Clubdistro:
>   Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
>   Confirmed
> Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
>   New
> Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
>   Invalid
> Status in dylan.NET:
>   Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
>   Invalid
> Status in Ichthux:
>   Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX:
>   Invalid
> Status in LibreOffice:
>   In Progress
> Status in Linux:
>   New
> Status in Linux Mint:
>   In Progress
> Status in The Linux OS Project:
>   In Progress
> Status in Neobot:
>   New
> Status in Novabot:
>   New
> Status in OpenOffice:
>   In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu:
>   Invalid
> Status in Tivion:
>   Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player:
>   Invalid
> Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team:
>   In Progress
> Status in Wine:
>   Unknown
> Status in Ubuntu:
>   Fix Released
> Status in Arch Linux:
>   Confirmed
> Status in Baltix:
>   Confirmed
> Status in Debian:
>   In Progress
> Status in Fedora:
>   Confirmed
> Status in Fluxbuntu:
>   Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE:
>   In Progress
> Status in Tilix:
>   New
>
> Bug description:
>   See Mark's closure comment here:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
>   --
>
>   Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
>   marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
>   to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, "Our work is
>   driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
>   all."
>
>   "Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software
> gives everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with
> whoever they like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the
> spectrum it enables the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective
> experience and expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the
> other, we are able to give access to essential software for those who
> couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by
> individuals and organisations all over the world."
>* http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy
>
>   Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
>   concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
>   the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
>   innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
>   anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
>   practices.
>
>   This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
>   Steps to repeat:
>
>   1. Visit a local PC store.
>   2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.
>
>   What happens:
>
>   Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
>   installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
>   system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
>   proprietary.
>
>   What should happen:
>
>   A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.
>
>* http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
>* http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
>* http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscriptions
>

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Checked in half an hour ago at a hotel where they use open office,
Thunderbird, Firefox etc. - they are on a good way. I also switched all the
required applications and only at the end changed the underlying OS. That
way the switch works step by step.

--
Martin Wildam
Am 23.05.2015 09:56 schrieb Barry Drake b.dr...@ntlworld.com:

 There is a hardware platform - it's called Lenovo.  It is built to be
 totally compatible with Linux, and sold as a Linux machine in many parts
 of the world.  AFAIK every Lenovo machine works totally out of the box
 with Ubuntu.  I just upgraded my Lenovo Netbook from 14.04 to 15.04 and
 will shortly be getting a Lenovo Laptop for my daughter.  Please, guys,
 lobby Lenovo to get their product out with Linux into our less civilised
 parts of the world (Europe, USA etc) where restrictive practices are
 still tolerated and corruption is rife .

 --
 You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
 report.
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1

 Title:
   Microsoft has a majority market share

 Status in Club Distro:
   Confirmed
 Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
   Confirmed
 Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
   New
 Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
   Invalid
 Status in dylan.NET:
   Invalid
 Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
   Invalid
 Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
   Invalid
 Status in JAK LINUX:
   Invalid
 Status in LibreOffice:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux Kernel:
   New
 Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux OS Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Neobot:
   New
 Status in Novabot:
   New
 Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
   In Progress
 Status in Tabuntu:
   Invalid
 Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
   Invalid
 Status in Tv-Player:
   Invalid
 Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Wine:
   Unknown
 Status in Ubuntu:
   Fix Released
 Status in Arch Linux:
   Confirmed
 Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
   Confirmed
 Status in Debian:
   In Progress
 Status in Fedora:
   Confirmed
 Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
   Confirmed
 Status in openSUSE:
   In Progress
 Status in Tilix Linux:
   New

 Bug description:
   See Mark's closure comment here:
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
   --

   Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
   marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
   to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
   driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
   all.

   Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software
 gives everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with
 whoever they like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the
 spectrum it enables the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective
 experience and expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the
 other, we are able to give access to essential software for those who
 couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by
 individuals and organisations all over the world.
* http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy

   Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
   concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
   the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
   innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
   anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
   practices.

   This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.

   Steps to repeat:

   1. Visit a local PC store.
   2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.

   What happens:

   Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
   installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
   system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
   proprietary.

   What should happen:

   A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.

* http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
* http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
* http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd

 To manage notifications about this bug go to:
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscriptions


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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1

Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Marius B. Kotsbak]

2015-05-22 21:19 GMT+02:00 mohican 1...@bugs.launchpad.net:

 ***Ubuntu need to be sold pre-installed on 100% compatible harware.***

 But this is not enough, people will not buy PCs with an alternative OS on
 it. People buy PCs with Windows because they know it and expect it to work
 100% (or they install a cracked version of Windows on their new PC) - or -
 if they can afford it - they buy Macs*.
 *In the last years a lot of people have switched from PCs to Macs. This
 was a lost opportunity for GNU/Linux. But it is not too late.


Add to this that it must at least support the latest LTS. My Dell M4800 is
still only supporting 12.04.x (which has issues solved in later versions,
but might never be backported) even though 14.04 LTS is there.

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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RE: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

Actually no. This was always about desktop. Of course the fact that many
usecases have an alternative that works on android or chrome have made
things better. But I still can't use Photoshop or Cubase on Linux.

Personally I don't think we have fully won before Microsoft starts
supporting Linux with Office etc. Of course replacing vendor-locked
applications with open source are optimal but so far we have only
succeed with webbrowsers.

If Google succeeds in moving everything into the browser thats a win
against OS monopoly but we should remember that Chrome Store are NOT
Open source. But Native Client and PPAPI is so building an alternate
store is possible and moving offering software in more than one store
are a lot easier than supporting different operating systems.

 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 16:19:55 +
 From: 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
 To: faldeg...@hotmail.com
 Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share
 
 Hi :)
 +1
 except the question is really out-dated now.  There's really 3 forks of
 it;
 
 1.  desktop only = still not fixed
 2.  total devices used by weeus = done but debatable
 3.  handhelds = definitely done.
 
 Regards from
 Tom :)
 
 -- 
 You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
 report.
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
 
 Title:
   Microsoft has a majority market share
 
 Status in Club Distro:
   Confirmed
 Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
   Confirmed
 Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
   New
 Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
   Invalid
 Status in dylan.NET:
   Invalid
 Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
   Invalid
 Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
   Invalid
 Status in JAK LINUX:
   Invalid
 Status in LibreOffice:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux Kernel:
   New
 Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux OS Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Neobot:
   New
 Status in Novabot:
   New
 Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
   In Progress
 Status in Tabuntu:
   Invalid
 Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
   Invalid
 Status in Tv-Player:
   Invalid
 Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Ubuntu:
   Fix Released
 Status in Arch Linux:
   Confirmed
 Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
   Invalid
 Status in “linux” package in Debian:
   In Progress
 Status in Fedora:
   Confirmed
 Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
   Confirmed
 Status in openSUSE:
   In Progress
 Status in Tilix Linux:
   New
 
 Bug description:
   See Mark's closure comment here: 
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
   --
 
   Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
   marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
   to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
   driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
   all.
 
   Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software gives 
 everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with whoever they 
 like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the spectrum it enables 
 the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective experience and 
 expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the other, we are able 
 to give access to essential software for those who couldn’t otherwise afford 
 it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by individuals and organisations all 
 over the world.
* http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy
 
   Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
   concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
   the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
   innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
   anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
   practices.
 
   This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
 
   Steps to repeat:
 
   1. Visit a local PC store.
   2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.
 
   What happens:
 
   Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
   installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
   system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
   proprietary.
 
   What should happen:
 
   A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.
 
* http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
* http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
* http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd
 
 To manage notifications about this bug go to:
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscriptions

-- 
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1

Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

To manage notifications about this bug go to:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Randall Ross]

Perhaps we should change the bug name to:

Microsoft has a majority market share on the Desktop

If need be, bugs can be opened for other form factors.


On 10/24/2014 10:19 AM, Faldegast wrote:
 Actually no. This was always about desktop. Of course the fact that many
 usecases have an alternative that works on android or chrome have made
 things better. But I still can't use Photoshop or Cubase on Linux.

 Personally I don't think we have fully won before Microsoft starts
 supporting Linux with Office etc. Of course replacing vendor-locked
 applications with open source are optimal but so far we have only
 succeed with webbrowsers.

 If Google succeeds in moving everything into the browser thats a win
 against OS monopoly but we should remember that Chrome Store are NOT
 Open source. But Native Client and PPAPI is so building an alternate
 store is possible and moving offering software in more than one store
 are a lot easier than supporting different operating systems.

 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 16:19:55 +
 From: 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
 To: faldeg...@hotmail.com
 Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

 Hi :)
 +1
 except the question is really out-dated now.  There's really 3 forks of
 it;

 1.  desktop only = still not fixed
 2.  total devices used by weeus = done but debatable
 3.  handhelds = definitely done.

 Regards from
 Tom :)

 -- 
 You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
 report.
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1

 Title:
   Microsoft has a majority market share

 Status in Club Distro:
   Confirmed
 Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
   Confirmed
 Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
   New
 Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
   Invalid
 Status in dylan.NET:
   Invalid
 Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
   Invalid
 Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
   Invalid
 Status in JAK LINUX:
   Invalid
 Status in LibreOffice:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux Kernel:
   New
 Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux OS Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Neobot:
   New
 Status in Novabot:
   New
 Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
   In Progress
 Status in Tabuntu:
   Invalid
 Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
   Invalid
 Status in Tv-Player:
   Invalid
 Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Ubuntu:
   Fix Released
 Status in Arch Linux:
   Confirmed
 Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
   Invalid
 Status in “linux” package in Debian:
   In Progress
 Status in Fedora:
   Confirmed
 Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
   Confirmed
 Status in openSUSE:
   In Progress
 Status in Tilix Linux:
   New

 Bug description:
   See Mark's closure comment here: 
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
   --

   Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
   marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
   to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
   driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
   all.

   Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software gives 
 everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with whoever they 
 like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the spectrum it enables 
 the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective experience and 
 expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the other, we are 
 able to give access to essential software for those who couldn’t otherwise 
 afford it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by individuals and organisations 
 all over the world.
* http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy

   Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
   concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
   the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
   innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
   anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
   practices.

   This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.

   Steps to repeat:

   1. Visit a local PC store.
   2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.

   What happens:

   Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
   installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
   system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
   proprietary.

   What should happen:

   A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.

* http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
* http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
* http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd

 To manage notifications about this bug go to:
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscriptions

-- 
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Marcelo Atie]

i think Bug #1 was closed, and Microsoft has a majority market share on
the Desktop is another bug.

2014-10-24 15:29 GMT-02:00 Randall Ross rand...@executiv.es:

 Perhaps we should change the bug name to:

 Microsoft has a majority market share on the Desktop

 If need be, bugs can be opened for other form factors.


 On 10/24/2014 10:19 AM, Faldegast wrote:
  Actually no. This was always about desktop. Of course the fact that many
  usecases have an alternative that works on android or chrome have made
  things better. But I still can't use Photoshop or Cubase on Linux.
 
  Personally I don't think we have fully won before Microsoft starts
  supporting Linux with Office etc. Of course replacing vendor-locked
  applications with open source are optimal but so far we have only
  succeed with webbrowsers.
 
  If Google succeeds in moving everything into the browser thats a win
  against OS monopoly but we should remember that Chrome Store are NOT
  Open source. But Native Client and PPAPI is so building an alternate
  store is possible and moving offering software in more than one store
  are a lot easier than supporting different operating systems.
 
  Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 16:19:55 +
  From: 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
  To: faldeg...@hotmail.com
  Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share
 
  Hi :)
  +1
  except the question is really out-dated now.  There's really 3 forks of
  it;
 
  1.  desktop only = still not fixed
  2.  total devices used by weeus = done but debatable
  3.  handhelds = definitely done.
 
  Regards from
  Tom :)
 
  --
  You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
  report.
  https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
 
  Title:
Microsoft has a majority market share
 
  Status in Club Distro:
Confirmed
  Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
Confirmed
  Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
New
  Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
Invalid
  Status in dylan.NET:
Invalid
  Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
Invalid
  Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
Invalid
  Status in JAK LINUX:
Invalid
  Status in LibreOffice:
In Progress
  Status in The Linux Kernel:
New
  Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
In Progress
  Status in The Linux OS Project:
In Progress
  Status in Neobot:
New
  Status in Novabot:
New
  Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
In Progress
  Status in Tabuntu:
Invalid
  Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
Invalid
  Status in Tv-Player:
Invalid
  Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
In Progress
  Status in Ubuntu:
Fix Released
  Status in Arch Linux:
Confirmed
  Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
Invalid
  Status in “linux” package in Debian:
In Progress
  Status in Fedora:
Confirmed
  Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
Confirmed
  Status in openSUSE:
In Progress
  Status in Tilix Linux:
New
 
  Bug description:
See Mark's closure comment here:
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
--
 
Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
all.
 
Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software
 gives everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with
 whoever they like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the
 spectrum it enables the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective
 experience and expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the
 other, we are able to give access to essential software for those who
 couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by
 individuals and organisations all over the world.
 * http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy
 
Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
practices.
 
This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
 
Steps to repeat:
 
1. Visit a local PC store.
2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.
 
What happens:
 
Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
proprietary.
 
What should happen:
 
A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.
 
 * http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
 * http

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

What are the numbers of the fork bugs?

-- 
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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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RE: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

I still do not agree. Microsoft never had majority market share on
anything but desktop.

 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 18:29:51 +
 From: marceloa...@gmail.com
 To: faldeg...@hotmail.com
 Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share
 
 i think Bug #1 was closed, and Microsoft has a majority market share on
 the Desktop is another bug.
 
 2014-10-24 15:29 GMT-02:00 Randall Ross rand...@executiv.es:
 
  Perhaps we should change the bug name to:
 
  Microsoft has a majority market share on the Desktop
 
  If need be, bugs can be opened for other form factors.
 
 
  On 10/24/2014 10:19 AM, Faldegast wrote:
   Actually no. This was always about desktop. Of course the fact that many
   usecases have an alternative that works on android or chrome have made
   things better. But I still can't use Photoshop or Cubase on Linux.
  
   Personally I don't think we have fully won before Microsoft starts
   supporting Linux with Office etc. Of course replacing vendor-locked
   applications with open source are optimal but so far we have only
   succeed with webbrowsers.
  
   If Google succeeds in moving everything into the browser thats a win
   against OS monopoly but we should remember that Chrome Store are NOT
   Open source. But Native Client and PPAPI is so building an alternate
   store is possible and moving offering software in more than one store
   are a lot easier than supporting different operating systems.
  
   Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 16:19:55 +
   From: 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
   To: faldeg...@hotmail.com
   Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share
  
   Hi :)
   +1
   except the question is really out-dated now.  There's really 3 forks of
   it;
  
   1.  desktop only = still not fixed
   2.  total devices used by weeus = done but debatable
   3.  handhelds = definitely done.
  
   Regards from
   Tom :)
  
   --
   You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
   report.
   https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
  
   Title:
 Microsoft has a majority market share
  
   Status in Club Distro:
 Confirmed
   Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
 Confirmed
   Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
 New
   Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
 Invalid
   Status in dylan.NET:
 Invalid
   Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
 Invalid
   Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
 Invalid
   Status in JAK LINUX:
 Invalid
   Status in LibreOffice:
 In Progress
   Status in The Linux Kernel:
 New
   Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
 In Progress
   Status in The Linux OS Project:
 In Progress
   Status in Neobot:
 New
   Status in Novabot:
 New
   Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
 In Progress
   Status in Tabuntu:
 Invalid
   Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
 Invalid
   Status in Tv-Player:
 Invalid
   Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
 In Progress
   Status in Ubuntu:
 Fix Released
   Status in Arch Linux:
 Confirmed
   Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
 Invalid
   Status in “linux” package in Debian:
 In Progress
   Status in Fedora:
 Confirmed
   Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
 Confirmed
   Status in openSUSE:
 In Progress
   Status in Tilix Linux:
 New
  
   Bug description:
 See Mark's closure comment here:
  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
 --
  
 Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
 marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
 to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
 driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
 all.
  
 Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software
  gives everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with
  whoever they like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the
  spectrum it enables the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective
  experience and expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the
  other, we are able to give access to essential software for those who
  couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by
  individuals and organisations all over the world.
  * http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy
  
 Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
 concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
 the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
 innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
 anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
 practices.
  
 This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
  
 Steps to repeat:
  
 1. Visit a local PC store.
 2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.
  
 What happens:
  
 Almost

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Hi

On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 2:13 PM, Páll Haraldsson
pall.haralds...@gmail.com wrote:
 @mwildam: [...] ALL OF THEM
 do their main computer work with a PC or laptop. You cannot assume
 that most of the serious computer work is done from an Android phone or
 tablet.

 Why is that? And not sure it's true for all.

Because Computer work is not only web surfing and email. Imagine a
photographer, technical designer, architect, lawyers, ..., and pretty
everyone working in IT - just to give a few examples. Imagine all the
people working with branch specific software - e.g. dental technician.
- I cannot imagine any of those working on a smartphone or tablet
only.


 For the global perspective most people probably do not have a PC while
 they may have a smartphone. You could say they only surf the web..

Of course - somebody cleaning toilets all day long (and this example
is not because I do not appreciate the work of those!) does not need a
high sophisticated operating system and neither does a waitress!
But do you want to build an OS that an IT guy and lawyer likes to use
or do you want to build one that is likes by a waitress? - Both should
be satisfied, but let's be honest: If you need to mail and surf the
web only then it is pretty irrelevant which OS you use!


 In India and other countries Android is the most popular operating
 system including for browsing the web; according to Statcounter; Mobile
 usage has already overtaken desktop [...]

That is no wonder - you should get also statistics about how many
people are working in which branch and: I do a lot of web surfing on
my way to work or to customers while traveling - reading (IT) news for
example. But while programming or writing concept documents
at/for/with customers nearly no web network traffic is produced. And
guess what: Usability and software features are far more relevant to
me in these situations! - So be aware that such statistics are partly
useless if it comes to usage of an operating system. Please do _not_
reduce computer work to email, web surfing and chat!

And I am still convinced that this bug 1 has been closed prematurely.

Best regards, Martin.

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
+1
except the question is really out-dated now.  There's really 3 forks of
it;

1.  desktop only = still not fixed
2.  total devices used by weeus = done but debatable
3.  handhelds = definitely done.

Regards from
Tom :)

-- 
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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RE: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Gadmer-Tv]

bu ne

 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 19:12:25 +
 From: 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
 To: mesu...@hotmail.com
 Subject: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share
 
 ** Package changed: linux (Fedora) = fedora
 
 ** Changed in: fedora
Status: New = Confirmed
 
 -- 
 You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to Tivion.
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
 
 Title:
   Microsoft has a majority market share
 
 Status in Club Distro:
   Confirmed
 Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
   Confirmed
 Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
   New
 Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
   Invalid
 Status in dylan.NET:
   Invalid
 Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
   Invalid
 Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
   Invalid
 Status in JAK LINUX:
   Invalid
 Status in LibreOffice:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux Kernel:
   New
 Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux OS Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Neobot:
   New
 Status in Novabot:
   New
 Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
   In Progress
 Status in Tabuntu:
   Invalid
 Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
   Invalid
 Status in Tv-Player:
   Invalid
 Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Ubuntu:
   Fix Released
 Status in Arch Linux:
   Confirmed
 Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
   Invalid
 Status in “linux” package in Debian:
   In Progress
 Status in Fedora:
   Confirmed
 Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
   Confirmed
 Status in openSUSE:
   In Progress
 Status in Tilix Linux:
   New
 
 Bug description:
   See Mark's closure comment here: 
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
   --
 
   Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
   marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
   to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
   driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
   all.
 
   Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software gives 
 everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with whoever they 
 like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the spectrum it enables 
 the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective experience and 
 expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the other, we are able 
 to give access to essential software for those who couldn’t otherwise afford 
 it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by individuals and organisations all 
 over the world.
* http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy
 
   Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
   concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
   the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
   innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
   anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
   practices.
 
   This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
 
   Steps to repeat:
 
   1. Visit a local PC store.
   2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.
 
   What happens:
 
   Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
   installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
   system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
   proprietary.
 
   What should happen:
 
   A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.
 
* http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
* http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
* http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd
 
 To manage notifications about this bug go to:
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscriptions

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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RE: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martyn Vallett]

I don't remember which it was exactly, it would have probably been
unity. Anyway, the program needed the location tracker, but didn't want
such filth on my system, and I eventually was able to satisify the
dependancy of the program that required the location tracker by
compiling the whole thing into a deb, with its data files blank. And
ubuntu ran with no problem with the modification.

The next oddity is the greeter, I don't see why that would need the
whole desktop enviroment. Does gdm or kdm need their entire
corrosponding emviroment, no. Both of which can run on Lubuntu, and kdm
can even be shipped on a custom remastersys style livecd with no issues.
Therefore there is no valid reason for ubuntu's greeter to require all
of ubuntu. All this is, is locking users into what cononical wants, just
like Apple and Microsoft with their OSes.

As far as I'm concerned, Ubuntu is only riding on it's former glory, as
it is quite likelly that if a distro now came out with as much spyware
as ubuntu, they would be rejected instantly. Canonical has lost my trust
completly, to the point that I don't want to use ubuntu again.

--- Original Message ---

From: LocutusOfBorg costamagnagianfra...@yahoo.it
Sent: September 7, 2013 4:36 PM
To: rodneyrules2...@hotmail.com
Subject: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

(I noticed that all
ubuntu specific programs are all dependancies of each other despite not
needing the others to run in most cases.)

could you please give examples?

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

Status in Club Distro:
  Confirmed
Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
  Confirmed
Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
  New
Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
  Invalid
Status in dylan.NET:
  Invalid
Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
  Invalid
Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
  Invalid
Status in JAK LINUX:
  Invalid
Status in LibreOffice:
  In Progress
Status in The Linux Kernel:
  New
Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
  In Progress
Status in The Linux OS Project:
  In Progress
Status in Neobot:
  New
Status in Novabot:
  New
Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
  In Progress
Status in Tabuntu:
  Invalid
Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
  Invalid
Status in Tv-Player:
  Invalid
Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
  In Progress
Status in Ubuntu:
  Fix Released
Status in Arch Linux:
  Confirmed
Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
  Invalid
Status in “linux” package in Debian:
  In Progress
Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
  Confirmed
Status in openSUSE:
  In Progress
Status in Tilix Linux:
  New

Bug description:
  See Mark's closure comment here: 
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
  --

  Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
  marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
  to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
  driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
  all.

  Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software gives 
everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with whoever they 
like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the spectrum it enables the 
Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective experience and expertise to 
continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the other, we are able to give access 
to essential software for those who couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage 
that’s keenly felt by individuals and organisations all over the world.
   * http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy

  Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
  concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
  the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
  innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
  anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
  practices.

  This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.

  Steps to repeat:

  1. Visit a local PC store.
  2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.

  What happens:

  Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
  installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
  system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
  proprietary.

  What should happen:

  A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.

   * http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
   * http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
   * http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd

To manage notifications about this bug go to:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscriptions

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Ramchandra Apte]

Agree strongly.


On 7 June 2013 15:45, Martin Wildam 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:

 Hi,

 On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Tom 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
  Wow, i find it amazing that you don't see more people using mobile or
 hand-held devices in your town!
  Also amazing that you can't buy any hand-held or mobile devices anywhere.
  Such devices have already pretty much taken over here in the Uk.

 Of course mobile devices are all around also here in Austria, but:
 Mobile devices are an addon - they help on the go and they are good
 for consuming IT content, but they are bad when it comes to
 production like Programming, Document Writing, Foto Editing, Desktop
 Publishing, Design, CAD, ...

 This is why I do give nothing on those news headliner telling that the
 PC era is over.
 Of course: A lot of people do use a computer (approx guess) 80 %
 internet surving or watching video, 10 % email reading and 10 % email
 writing. - Those are perfectly service with a large enough tablet.
 Anyway I do not know any tablet or smartphone user not having also a
 laptop or PC at home.

 BTW: I consider PC and laptop as both being relevant for this bug #1.

 [snip]


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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martyn Vallett]

I firmly believe that this bug is no where near being fixed!

Things that need to be fixed:

1. Quite a few of the OEM's still don't support Linux, and whenever 
drivers are asked for (I'm talking about items that aren't supported 
correctly by the kernel, such as my particular GPU.) they try to get you 
to use windows. I know this through experience! Now if bug 1 was truly 
fixed then I should have had no problem at all getting what I needed, or 
not to have needed to get the drivers in the first place.

2. This has already been mentioned a lot but the retail stores dislike 
selling anything other than windows pre-installed.

3. I've already mentioned this before but, we really need some 
advertising of some sort. I only know two people other than myself in my 
town that use Linux. Advertising/Public awareness could change that.

I agree with PJO about the closure statement, It definitely sounded a 
bit odd.

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
Wow, i find it amazing that you don't see more people using mobile or hand-held 
devices in your town!  Also amazing that you can't buy any hand-held or mobile 
devices anywhere.  


Such devices have already pretty much taken over here in the Uk.  


However i do agree that this bug is not really fixed.  Quite the contrary!  


Now is the time to really start working at it!  Now that mobile devices and 
hand-helds have become so common-place it should be easier to go into stores 
and demand peripherals (such as printers, wireless routers etc) that are 
GnuLinux friendly.  Demands such as I need a printer for work but need to 
know that i will be able to print from my Android.  So, is this printer 
GnuLinux friendly?  or I need a wireless router so that my Android can 
access my home/work network.  Does this router have drivers for GnuLinux?


This demand needs to reach the OEMs.  Stores need to know that they have got to 
start supporting GnuLinux = that there is demand for it and that the demand is 
growing.  


Regards from 
Tom :)  





 From: Martyn Vallett 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
To: tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk 
Sent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 8:48
Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share
 

I firmly believe that this bug is no where near being fixed!

Things that need to be fixed:

1. Quite a few of the OEM's still don't support Linux, and whenever 
drivers are asked for (I'm talking about items that aren't supported 
correctly by the kernel, such as my particular GPU.) they try to get you 
to use windows. I know this through experience! Now if bug 1 was truly 
fixed then I should have had no problem at all getting what I needed, or 
not to have needed to get the drivers in the first place.

2. This has already been mentioned a lot but the retail stores dislike 
selling anything other than windows pre-installed.

3. I've already mentioned this before but, we really need some 
advertising of some sort. I only know two people other than myself in my 
town that use Linux. Advertising/Public awareness could change that.

I agree with PJO about the closure statement, It definitely sounded a 
bit odd.



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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Hi,

On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Tom 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 Wow, i find it amazing that you don't see more people using mobile or 
 hand-held devices in your town!
 Also amazing that you can't buy any hand-held or mobile devices anywhere.
 Such devices have already pretty much taken over here in the Uk.

Of course mobile devices are all around also here in Austria, but:
Mobile devices are an addon - they help on the go and they are good
for consuming IT content, but they are bad when it comes to
production like Programming, Document Writing, Foto Editing, Desktop
Publishing, Design, CAD, ...

This is why I do give nothing on those news headliner telling that the
PC era is over.
Of course: A lot of people do use a computer (approx guess) 80 %
internet surving or watching video, 10 % email reading and 10 % email
writing. - Those are perfectly service with a large enough tablet.
Anyway I do not know any tablet or smartphone user not having also a
laptop or PC at home.

BTW: I consider PC and laptop as both being relevant for this bug #1.


 However i do agree that this bug is not really fixed.  Quite the contrary!

Yes, indeed!


 Now is the time to really start working at it!  Now that mobile devices and 
 hand-helds have become so common-place it
 should be easier to go into stores and demand peripherals (such as printers, 
 wireless routers etc) that are GnuLinux
 friendly.  Demands such as I need a printer for work but need to know that i 
 will be able to print from my Android.

This is an uncommon use case. What I see always: Documents are sent by
email to somebody who has the desired printer on his laptop or PC
already configured in the list of available printers. At least 2 times
a week I am at customers and I would never go to connect to a wild
number of printers and after changing to the next phone model have to
do it again anyway. I already reduce the list of configured W-LAN
entries in my phone. Even if it would be just 2 clicks or touches away
- I first would have to ask some person at customer side to what
printer I should send the document xy, would maybe need to configure
page size, make sure enough paper is in the trays and so on. Apart
from the fact that on many network printers you first need to login
anyway and have to be within the customers real network and not only
in the guest W-LAN.

  So, is this printer GnuLinux friendly?

This of course is an issue sometimes, but I experience less problems
to get a Linux compatible printer than a Linux compatible laptop/PC.


  or I need a wireless router so that my Android can access my home/work 
 network.
 Does this router have drivers for GnuLinux?

I never heard of drivers I need on my client to support particular
routers. Routers are running their own operating system inside and
most of them alreasy run a flavour of Linux ASFAIK. I do consider
routers - as servers - already to be taken over by Linux.

Best regards, Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
I usually find one of the main blockers to Ubuntu migrations is trying to get 
wireless connections to work.  They should work because yes, both sides are 
running GnuLinux but somehow it's only the Windows laptops that can connect, 
not the Ubuntu ones (or the Ubuntu side of the dual-boot).  


We are now in a position to demand that wireless connections do work with 
GnuLinux.  No more of this Cd with only Windows drivers.  We need wireless 
devices that give us the equivalents for Mac and for GnuLinux.  


People and the mainstream media (even the tech press) are years away
from realising that desktops are a vital part of the eco-system.  At the
moment they are still wowed by the tiny machines being faster and doing
more than their crumbling ancient Windows-'driven' desktops.  Eventually
they might realise they still need desktops but maybe ones that don't
rely on Windows.  Lets capitalise on the brief moment we have to push
mobile devices and their capabilities.


Most office workers work in only 2 or 3 locations;  home, work and maybe
in-transit between the 2.  It's fairly rare to have multiple work
locations.  About half the people at my main work-place bring in their
Androids, iPad/iPhones with no thought or expectation of being able to
use them productively.  To be fair even desktop users tend to email
documents to each other in order to get them onto the machine that can
print.  They don't seem to understand that they can save to the network
and them reach from any machine and they don't seem to realise that all
machine can print.


However, why not print directly from their Android's?  Maybe only to 1 or 2 of 
the printers at work or the 1 at home (depending on where they are).  


We have only a couple of years to push this type of work-flow before
everyone starts to return to their desktops but right now we have an
opportunity to really push for peripherals that are compatible.


Btw i have huge troubles trying to get a proper office photocopier to
work.  We have a large Ricoh with a multi-sheet feeder on top,
supposedly able to staple as well as collate.  It's so tall that it's
made to stand on the floor and comes up to just over waist high on me
although it's more like chest high to a lot of the ladies.  We also have
an A3 colour printer that we normally use to print A4 in colour.  I
can't get the Oki C810 nor the Ricoh to work at all under GnuLinux.
The tiny hewlett packard printers worked straight off the bat with 0
effort.


Regards from 

Tom :)





 From: Martin Wildam 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
To: tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk 
Sent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 11:15
Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share
 

Hi,

On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Tom 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 Wow, i find it amazing that you don't see more people using mobile or 
 hand-held devices in your town!
 Also amazing that you can't buy any hand-held or mobile devices anywhere.
 Such devices have already pretty much taken over here in the Uk.

Of course mobile devices are all around also here in Austria, but:
Mobile devices are an addon - they help on the go and they are good for 
consuming IT content, but they are bad when it comes to production like 
Programming, Document Writing, Foto Editing, Desktop Publishing, Design, CAD, 
...

This is why I do give nothing on those news headliner telling that the PC era 
is over.  Of course: A lot of people do use a computer (approx guess) 80 %
internet surving or watching video, 10 % email reading and 10 % email writing. 
- Those are perfectly service with a large enough tablet.  Anyway I do not 
know any tablet or smartphone user not having also a laptop or PC at home.

BTW: I consider PC and laptop as both being relevant for this bug #1.


 However i do agree that this bug is not really fixed.  Quite the contrary!

Yes, indeed!


 Now is the time to really start working at it!  Now that mobile devices and 
 hand-helds have become so common-place it
 should be easier to go into stores and demand peripherals (such as printers, 
 wireless routers etc) that are GnuLinux
 friendly.  Demands such as I need a printer for work but need to know that 
 i will be able to print from my Android.

This is an uncommon use case. What I see always: Documents are sent by email 
to somebody who has the desired printer on his laptop or PC already configured 
in the list of available printers. At least 2 times a week I am at customers 
and I would never go to connect to a wild number of printers and after 
changing to the next phone model have to do it again anyway. I already reduce 
the list of configured W-LAN entries in my phone. Even if it would be just 2 
clicks or touches away - I first would have to ask some person at customer 
side to what printer I should send the document xy, would maybe need to 
configure page size, make sure enough paper is in the trays and so on. Apart 
from the fact that on many network printers you first

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Not only visiting a shop you still mostly see Windows on the PCs, it took
me a lot of discussion and cost me about 200 bucks more than expected to
get a new PC from Dell (today) with Ubuntu preinstalled. First time, Dell
made troubles selling me a Windows-less PC, so for my experience here in
Austria things seem even to get worse.

But the positive point: Comparing to the words of Gandhi we are in the
phase where they fight you.

Best regards.
--
Martin Wildam
Am 06.06.2013 20:51 schrieb northrup 1...@bugs.launchpad.net:

 This bug is not fixed.  Based on the outlined steps to repeat:

 1. Visit a local PC store.
 2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.

 At least in the Reno, NV area, the results of the steps to repeat
 involve relatively-nonexistent availability of free-and-open-source
 purchasing options; nearly all PCs sold here are preinstalled with
 either Windows or (in the case of those originally manufactured by
 Apple, Inc.) Mac OS X.  Some PCs can be purchased without operating
 systems if from a small vendor, but in those cases it's reliant upon me
 having technical experience and making it clear that I am capable of
 installing software myself; larger vendors do not offer this ability.
 Perhaps this is different in other areas (if it is, further
 clarification - as well as real estate listings and job offerings to
 assist with me packing my bags and moving - would be appreciated).

 While PC manufacturers are beginning to make their Linux offerings more
 apparent (namely, Dell, in addition to Linux-only vendors like
 System76), this is far from the mainstream, and PC users without
 technical experience/capability will likely be stuck with a non-free
 operating system preinstalled.

 --
 You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
 report.
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 Title:
   Microsoft has a majority market share

 Status in Club Distro:
   Confirmed
 Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
   Confirmed
 Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
   New
 Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
   Invalid
 Status in dylan.NET:
   Invalid
 Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
   Invalid
 Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
   Invalid
 Status in JAK LINUX:
   Invalid
 Status in LibreOffice:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux Kernel:
   New
 Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux OS Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Neobot:
   New
 Status in Novabot:
   New
 Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
   In Progress
 Status in Tabuntu:
   Invalid
 Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
   Invalid
 Status in Tv-Player:
   Invalid
 Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Ubuntu:
   Fix Released
 Status in Arch Linux:
   Confirmed
 Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
   Invalid
 Status in “linux” package in Debian:
   In Progress
 Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
   Confirmed
 Status in openSUSE:
   In Progress
 Status in Tilix Linux:
   New

 Bug description:
   See Mark's closure comment here:
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
   --

   Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
   marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
   to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
   driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
   all.

   Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software
 gives everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with
 whoever they like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the
 spectrum it enables the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective
 experience and expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the
 other, we are able to give access to essential software for those who
 couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by
 individuals and organisations all over the world.
* http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy

   Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
   concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
   the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
   innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
   anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
   practices.

   This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.

   Steps to repeat:

   1. Visit a local PC store.
   2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.

   What happens:

   Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
   installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
   system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
   proprietary.

   What should happen:

   A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.

* 

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
This is true but all eyes are on the portable devices.  It will be a few years 
before people realise that they really do need a proper desktop.  

The problem is that desktops are seen as slow monstrosities.  Sure they
are fast when you first get them but they soon suffer slowdowns and
multiple problems.  People see portable devices being faster and staying
fast.  They just don't make the connection that it's the OS not the
machine.

Windows successfully killed off the 1st wave of smaller, lighter
machines (netbooks) by insisting on the Windows versions being sold in
shops and blocking the ones with OSes made for the form factor.
Everyone i know of that still has the original OSes or replaced them or
the Windows with Ubuntu still loves their machines all these years
later.  Everyone that stuck with Windows on them thinks they are
retarded, even though the specs are probably higher than the tablets
they love.

So the question is will people remember only how slow desktops quickly
became or will they wonder if the 'new' OSes such as Android or Ubuntu
can work on the desktops too.

Regards from 
Tom :)  





 From: Martin Wildam 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
To: tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk 
Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013, 23:00
Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share
 

Sorry Mark, but as many above I also cannot consider this bug being
fixed. Only last week I wanted to buy a new Canonical certified
hardware from Dell - they definitely do not want to sell a non-Windows
PC to me. Best offer I could get (after insisting) is at about 1 third
more expensive. I never had such problems before with Dell and of
course this is not the first time I want to buy a non-Windows PC. -
Just to give an example. Similar issue at other places.

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Mark Shuttleworth
1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 Personal computing today is a broader proposition than it was in 2004:
 phones, tablets, wearables and other devices are all part of the mix for
 our digital lives. From a competitive perspective, that broader market
 has healthy competition, with IOS and Android representing a meaningful
 share

Yes, but these new devices mostly cannot be considered to be a
replacement for a desktop PC or laptop. Most people owning a tablet
also own a PC. For productive work in most cases a laptop or PC is
still the best choice. Tablets and Smartphones are still only a
secondary device used for emailing and news-reading (or playing) in
the very most cases.


 It's worth noting that today, if you're into cloud computing, the
 Microsoft IAAS team are both technically excellent and very focused on
 having ALL OS's including Linux guests like Ubuntu run extremely well on
 Azure, making them a pleasure to work with.

At the server side Linux already won a long time ago, but not at
client side and I always thought that Bug #1 focuses on the client.

Best regards, Martin.

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

Status in Club Distro:
  Confirmed
Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
  Confirmed
Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
  New
Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
  Invalid
Status in dylan.NET:
  Invalid
Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
  Invalid
Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
  Invalid
Status in JAK LINUX:
  Invalid
Status in LibreOffice:
  In Progress
Status in The Linux Kernel:
  New
Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
  In Progress
Status in The Linux OS Project:
  In Progress
Status in Neobot:
  New
Status in Novabot:
  New
Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
  In Progress
Status in Tabuntu:
  Invalid
Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
  Invalid
Status in Tv-Player:
  Invalid
Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
  In Progress
Status in Ubuntu:
  Fix Released
Status in Arch Linux:
  Confirmed
Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
  Invalid
Status in “linux” package in Debian:
  In Progress
Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
  Confirmed
Status in openSUSE:
  In Progress
Status in Tilix Linux:
  New

Bug description:
  See Mark's closure comment here: 
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
  --

  Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
  marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
  to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
  driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
  all.

  Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software gives 
everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with whoever they 
like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the spectrum it enables 
the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective experience and expertise 
to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the other, we are able to give 
access to essential

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Paul Flint]

Dear Mark,

Nice job fixing this bug.

Kindest Regards,


Paul Flint
(802) 479-2360 Home
(802) 595-9365 Cell

/
Based upon email reliability concerns,
please send an acknowledgment in response to this note.

Paul Flint
17 Averill Street
Barre, VT
05641

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Mark Cariaga]

Great job Ubuntu!   It's time to file a regression... Localized bug
perhaps... It's the lack of retail presence (e.g.  Walmart, best buy, etc)
of Ubuntu desktop and laptops in North America.   And yes, there are
popular online stores here, but not that much physical stores yet.
On 2013-05-30 3:46 AM, Mark Shuttleworth 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:

 Personal computing today is a broader proposition than it was in 2004:
 phones, tablets, wearables and other devices are all part of the mix for
 our digital lives. From a competitive perspective, that broader market
 has healthy competition, with IOS and Android representing a meaningful
 share (see http://www.zdnet.com/windows-has-fallen-behind-apple-ios-and-
 google-android-708699/ and in particular http://cdn-

 static.zdnet.com/i/r/story/70/00/008699/meeker620-620x466-620x466.jpg?hash=ZQxmZmDjAzupscale=1
 ).

 Android may not be my or your first choice of Linux, but it is without
 doubt an open source platform that offers both practical and economic
 benefits to users and industry. So we have both competition, and good
 representation for open source, in personal computing.

 Even though we have only played a small part in that shift, I think it's
 important for us to recognize that the shift has taken place. So from
 Ubuntu's perspective, this bug is now closed.

 There is a social element to this bug report as well, of course. It
 served for many as a sort of declaration of intent. But it's better for
 us to focus our intent on excellence in our own right, rather than our
 impact on someone else's product. In the (many) years since this bug was
 filed, we've figured out how to be amazing on the cloud, and I hope soon
 also how to be amazing for developers on their desktops, and perhaps
 even for everyday users across that full range of devices. I would
 rather we find a rallying call that celebrates those insights, and
 leadership.

 It's worth noting that today, if you're into cloud computing, the
 Microsoft IAAS team are both technically excellent and very focused on
 having ALL OS's including Linux guests like Ubuntu run extremely well on
 Azure, making them a pleasure to work with. Perhaps the market shift has
 played a role in that. Circumstances have changed, institutions have
 adapted, so should we.

 Along those lines, it's good to reflect on how much has changed since
 2004, and how fast it's changed. For Ubuntu, our goal remains to deliver
 fantastic experiences: for developers, for people building out
 production infrastructure, and for end-users on a range of devices. We
 are doing all of that in an environment that changes completely every
 decade. So we have to be willing to make big changes ourselves - in our
 processes, our practices, our tools, and our relationships. Change this
 bug status is but a tiny example.

 ** Changed in: ubuntu
Status: In Progress = Fix Released

 ** Also affects: Ubuntu Dapper
Importance: Undecided
Status: New

 --
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 report.
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 Title:
   Microsoft has a majority market share

 Status in Club Distro:
   Confirmed
 Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
   Confirmed
 Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
   New
 Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
   Invalid
 Status in dylan.NET:
   Invalid
 Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
   Invalid
 Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
   Invalid
 Status in JAK LINUX:
   Invalid
 Status in LibreOffice:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux Kernel:
   New
 Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux OS Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Neobot:
   New
 Status in Novabot:
   New
 Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
   In Progress
 Status in Tabuntu:
   Invalid
 Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
   Invalid
 Status in Tv-Player:
   Invalid
 Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Ubuntu:
   Fix Released
 Status in The Dapper Drake:
   New
 Status in Arch Linux:
   Confirmed
 Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
   Invalid
 Status in “linux” package in Debian:
   In Progress
 Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
   Confirmed
 Status in openSUSE:
   In Progress
 Status in Tilix Linux:
   New

 Bug description:
   Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
   marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
   to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
   driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
   all.

   Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software
 gives everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with
 whoever they like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the
 spectrum it enables the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective
 experience and expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the
 other, we are 

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Mark Cariaga]

Martyn putting $ on Microsoft is not cool anymore. It's used by trolls.
If we advocate enough, eventually we'll see changes
On 2013-05-30 4:21 AM, Martyn Vallett 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:

 Micro$haft still have a grip in Australia, but I have been noticing that
 chrome OS and andriod have made a decent appearence. However as of yet I
 have not seen a single computer with Ubuntu Pre-installed. (Or any Linux
 distros.)

 Good to hear that bug 1 is being fixed elsewhere!

 However I believe that there is still work to be done, If we start to
 slow down our progress there is a possiblity that the propietary giants
 will have time to get back on their feet. We also, need a market
 presence here in Australia.

 And all I got from what Mark Shuttleworth said was 'Give Up'...

 --
 You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
 report.
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1

 Title:
   Microsoft has a majority market share

 Status in Club Distro:
   Confirmed
 Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
   Confirmed
 Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
   New
 Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
   Invalid
 Status in dylan.NET:
   Invalid
 Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
   Invalid
 Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
   Invalid
 Status in JAK LINUX:
   Invalid
 Status in LibreOffice:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux Kernel:
   New
 Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux OS Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Neobot:
   New
 Status in Novabot:
   New
 Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
   In Progress
 Status in Tabuntu:
   Invalid
 Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
   Invalid
 Status in Tv-Player:
   Invalid
 Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Ubuntu:
   Fix Released
 Status in The Dapper Drake:
   New
 Status in Arch Linux:
   Confirmed
 Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
   Invalid
 Status in “linux” package in Debian:
   In Progress
 Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
   Confirmed
 Status in openSUSE:
   In Progress
 Status in Tilix Linux:
   New

 Bug description:
   Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
   marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
   to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
   driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
   all.

   Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software
 gives everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with
 whoever they like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the
 spectrum it enables the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective
 experience and expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the
 other, we are able to give access to essential software for those who
 couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by
 individuals and organisations all over the world.
* http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy

   Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
   concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
   the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
   innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
   anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
   practices.

   This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.

   Steps to repeat:

   1. Visit a local PC store.
   2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.

   What happens:

   Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
   installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
   system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
   proprietary.

   What should happen:

   A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.

* http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
* http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
* http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd

 To manage notifications about this bug go to:
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscriptions


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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
+1
It is already the year of the linux desktop except that it's really the year 
of the linux portable device because people are increasingly moving away from 
desktops.  

Regards from

Tom :)





 From: ttoine tto...@ttoine.net
Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013, 16:57

Back when the #1 bug was fixed, PC was almost the only stuff to work and
communicate in the digital world. Since, smartphones, tablets and other
devices appear. They are computers, and they don't run a Microsoft OS.
So, yes, the bug is fixed. And in many countries, brands like Lenovo
sells more PC with Ubuntu than with Windows.

So, yes, the bug is fixed. Next step: having Ubuntu or other OS than
Windows on PC, in physical stores and shops!!!




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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
That is what i thought at first but there was a crucial paragraph in there that 
said the main aim is now to just increase the quality of the product rather 
than the main aim being to fix this bug.  


Personally i have always seen this as a longer-term wish-list or feature 
request rather than something being worked on directly.  Sure some individuals 
and organisations have deliberately done work on this but i wasn't here early 
enough to catch any seriously coordinated work across the whole of the project 
to fix this bug.  The best i've seen was Barry's attachments and game-play.  


I thought Ubuntu had always been primarily focused on quality of the product 
and on developing an open friendly community with this bug being one of the 
inevitable results of that work.  So, as far as i'm concerned there are no 
changes in direction.  


Maybe things were different before 2008 but i joined then and found the product 
was far better quality than Windows in all sorts of ways that had really 
niggled me about Windows.  Sure there were a few things that didn't work 
perfectly, a few apps where i had to leave long-term favs behind and switch to 
others (which became new favs) and a few stupid games but now i have more fun 
getting involved and meeting interesting people all over the world (not afk 
tho).  I don't have so much time for games but do have much more fun and still 
enjoy Wesnoth and others when i get time.  


Btw i prefer the term Microsquish.  It's less combative and is friendly and 
cute.  Even Windows fanboys seem quite happy with it.  It still gets the point 
across.  


Regards from 

Tom :)





 From: Martyn Vallett 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013, 12:14

And all I got from what Mark Shuttleworth said was 'Give Up'...



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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
Have to disagree with the top man.  Ubuntu played a huge part.  


Ubuntu got out there into the mainstream press over and over again.  Not as a 
quirky, insane, anarchistic, geek toy but as a serious business tool with 
repeated successes in many companies around the globe.  Redhat had already been 
doing some of  that for years but Ubuntu took it and ran with it straight onto 
the main stage.  No other distro managed that so consistently.  


Can Ubuntu be the 1st to achieve what so many others are aiming for and be the 
1st OS to successfully run on smart-phones, handhelds, tablets and where it 
already succeeds?  Can Android reach the desktop or can Windows turn their 
dismally failing mobiles and slate/tablets into success before Ubuntu get 
there?  The race is on.  


Regards from
Tom :)  





 From: Mark Shuttleworth 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013, 11:38
 

snip /

Even though we have only played a small part in that shift

snip /


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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Manjul Apratim]

@Barry For the record, FOSS does not imply software that is free as in
beer. The protagonists of free software - the folks at GNU - openly state
on www.gnu.org that it is perfectly acceptable to sell software free as
in freedom for money.
 Hi :)
Have to disagree with the top man.  Ubuntu played a huge part.


Ubuntu got out there into the mainstream press over and over again.  Not as
a quirky, insane, anarchistic, geek toy but as a serious business tool with
repeated successes in many companies around the globe.  Redhat had already
been doing some of  that for years but Ubuntu took it and ran with it
straight onto the main stage.  No other distro managed that so
consistently.


Can Ubuntu be the 1st to achieve what so many others are aiming for and be
the 1st OS to successfully run on smart-phones, handhelds, tablets and
where it already succeeds?  Can Android reach the desktop or can Windows
turn their dismally failing mobiles and slate/tablets into success before
Ubuntu get there?  The race is on.


Regards from
Tom :)




 From: Mark Shuttleworth 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013, 11:38


snip /

Even though we have only played a small part in that shift

snip /


--
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report.
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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

Status in Club Distro:
  Confirmed
Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
  Confirmed
Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
  New
Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
  Invalid
Status in dylan.NET:
  Invalid
Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
  Invalid
Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
  Invalid
Status in JAK LINUX:
  Invalid
Status in LibreOffice:
  In Progress
Status in The Linux Kernel:
  New
Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
  In Progress
Status in The Linux OS Project:
  In Progress
Status in Neobot:
  New
Status in Novabot:
  New
Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
  In Progress
Status in Tabuntu:
  Invalid
Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
  Invalid
Status in Tv-Player:
  Invalid
Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
  In Progress
Status in Ubuntu:
  Fix Released
Status in Arch Linux:
  Confirmed
Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
  Invalid
Status in “linux” package in Debian:
  In Progress
Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
  Confirmed
Status in openSUSE:
  In Progress
Status in Tilix Linux:
  New

Bug description:
  See Mark's closure comment here:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
  --

  Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
  marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
  to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
  driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
  all.

  Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software gives
everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with whoever
they like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the spectrum it
enables the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective experience
and expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the other, we
are able to give access to essential software for those who couldn’t
otherwise afford it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by individuals and
organisations all over the world.
   * http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy

  Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
  concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
  the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
  innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
  anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
  practices.

  This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.

  Steps to repeat:

  1. Visit a local PC store.
  2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.

  What happens:

  Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
  installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
  system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
  proprietary.

  What should happen:

  A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.

   * http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
   * http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
   * http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd

To manage notifications about this bug go to:
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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Sorry Mark, but as many above I also cannot consider this bug being
fixed. Only last week I wanted to buy a new Canonical certified
hardware from Dell - they definitely do not want to sell a non-Windows
PC to me. Best offer I could get (after insisting) is at about 1 third
more expensive. I never had such problems before with Dell and of
course this is not the first time I want to buy a non-Windows PC. -
Just to give an example. Similar issue at other places.

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Mark Shuttleworth
1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 Personal computing today is a broader proposition than it was in 2004:
 phones, tablets, wearables and other devices are all part of the mix for
 our digital lives. From a competitive perspective, that broader market
 has healthy competition, with IOS and Android representing a meaningful
 share

Yes, but these new devices mostly cannot be considered to be a
replacement for a desktop PC or laptop. Most people owning a tablet
also own a PC. For productive work in most cases a laptop or PC is
still the best choice. Tablets and Smartphones are still only a
secondary device used for emailing and news-reading (or playing) in
the very most cases.


 It's worth noting that today, if you're into cloud computing, the
 Microsoft IAAS team are both technically excellent and very focused on
 having ALL OS's including Linux guests like Ubuntu run extremely well on
 Azure, making them a pleasure to work with.

At the server side Linux already won a long time ago, but not at
client side and I always thought that Bug #1 focuses on the client.

Best regards, Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)

It's probably better to tell them further down the road.  Once you have
become a bit friendlier with each other and they know 1st hand that you
are excellent and provide good quality services.


It might surprise them how much extra effort you had to and were willing to put 
in to secure the relationship.  It might embarrass them to know that Word 
formats are increasingly tough for people now that Windows is not number 1 and 
that their form causes people such problems.  Are they starting to lose 
business by sticking to such temperamental formats?


MS Office 2007, 2010, 2013 and 365 can Save As ... OpenDocument Format 
(.odt for 'text' (really documents done by word-processor NOT text-files)).  
That's 6 years and 4 versions.  2007 and 2010 cunningly used the outdated Odf 
version 1.1 but that's only a problem for spreadsheets.  2013 and 365 use Odf 
version 1.2 same as everyone else has been using for over 7 years.  


Odf is becoming much more widely used because it means documents will be able 
to be read long after MS's formats have changed so much that old documents are 
unreadable.  Entire countries and large organisations are switching to it.  The 
French police force over a year ago, hospitals in Copenhagen about a year ago, 
all government desktops in one of the 'States' of Spain (40,000 machines) added 
to 70,000 machines in schools which switched a few years ago, all of Brasil for 
many years now.  Errr, those are just a few that caught my eye.  


It's probably still better to use the older Word formats (.Doc) (fomr MS Office 
2000, Xp, 2003) rather than their newer ooxml .DocX format even if they want to 
restrict their business to other MS Office users because the DocX 
implementation changes with every release.  In fact we often find that it's the 
LibreOffice user that has to act as go between in offices when 2 people have 
trouble sharing documents with each other.  The DocXs produced by LibreOffice 
are the only ones that can be read by all different versions of MS Office!!  


So, it is tough at the moment but things are moving your way and beginning to 
move quite a lot more quickly.  Are businesses going to be ready?  Your new 
corporate customer's isn't.  Yours is.  
Regards from 
Tom :)  





 From: Pedro Galvan 
Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013, 23:05
Subject: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share
 

Just this week, a corporate customer with whom I am starting a business 
relationship sent me a ms word document with a form that I needed to fill in 
order for them to register me as a supplier. 

Needless to say, I had to use ms word to open it.

snip /

I know that some will say that they would have told the customer to send
the document in a non-proprietary format. Yeah, right. I would like to
see you tell that to a new customer with an important deal.

snip /


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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)  
I think it is fairly easy to install for most people.  Even people that have no 
experience installing any other OS.  It takes me around an hour or more but i 
add tons of extras such as Medibuntu and am typically doing so on fairly 
ancient machines.  As a noob it took me a lot longer before i was happy with my 
system.  

I hope the alarms company has someone that has some experience and
preferably with a GnuLinux rather than purely Windows-based experience.
Perhaps offer them your services?

Regards from 
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
The problem is that people are comparing installing Ubuntu against using a 
system that is already installed for them.  


A pre-installed systems means you don't have to do anything to install it.  Of 
course that is easier than installing it yourself!  


I'm not quite sure about the quality issue.  

1.  Bug-reports:  Is there anywhere you can look up how many bug-reports
have been filed against non-unix-based systems?  Do any Windows users
know how to post bug-reports against their system?  Is it positively
encouraged and made easy to post them?  How many of the 100K are
duplicates or likely to be fixed by fixing the same bit of code?  Do all
the 100K affect Ubuntu or are some against other distros?

2.  Works anywhere:  Errr, everywhere i have installed Ubuntu it works
well.  I even have a full install on a usb-stick (not a LiveUsb so it
doesn't do hardware checking so thoroughly) that seems to work in every
machine (not tried it on a Win8 on yet)

3.  Malware:  Ubuntu never suffers from this.  Mac seems to get 1 or 2
every couple of years.  Android and Blackberry seem fairly immune too.


Also what do we consider as competitors, as rivals?  Mac, Android, Blackberry, 
Bsd and other unix-based OSes seem to operate as fair competition.  Each has a 
niche.  Each, to some extent, operates in co-operative competition for/against 
each other.  

Regards from 
Tom :)  





 From: A. Denton 
Sent: Sunday, 26 May 2013, 2:40

 
The bugs name should be altered. I think Microsoft is just one player in
this game. Have you realized some things changed since the 90's? Just
imagine... Oracle took over Sun, Apple released OS 10 (X) and BSD is a
powerful and usable OS . :-]

Seriously guys I think Microsoft is not the biggest problem we have and
neither is Apple or some other company. The biggest problem right now is
'us'. I think we have a problem with Linux, with quality and with the
direction in which things are going. Yes, I say we have a problem with
quality and 100k+ bugs here. We have a problem with users still making a
valid point in saying Ubuntu is to hard to install and to yet not usable
in the same way and everywhere like the systems of our competitors.

All that is not Microsoft's fault. And even a major market share for a
dinosaur like them is not a problem in the first place. However it
matters whether our quality is better or not. Bill Gates was wrong when
he replied to Jobs in the 80's that it doesn't matter. It does matter –
you can see it yourself!



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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:40 AM, A. Denton aqu...@tron-delta.org wrote:
 The bugs name should be altered. I think Microsoft is just one player in
 this game.

I agree with you. However, from all the players Microsoft is the one
that affects me most (in a negative way). And I say this although (or
maybe exactly because of that ;-) ) I still know Windows better than
Linux.


 The biggest problem right now is
 'us'. I think we have a problem with Linux, with quality and with the
 direction in which things are going. Yes, I say we have a problem with
 quality and 100k+ bugs here.

Yes, you are right - too many bugs and e.g. such things as recently,
that an update of libreoffice makes all menus appearing empty should
definitely not occur (even if fixed pretty fast imagine how annoying
for all people under stress by finishing some documentation and then
menus are gone). So of course, quality should be better regardless of
the crap that others are producing. Pointing to others that they
produce even worse results is not a solution and bad behaviour even if
of course it is less annoying chosing the option that produces less
(long-term) troubles among the amount of crappy solutions.

And yes, instead of fighting (like Wayland vs Mir) there should be
more combined power.


 We have a problem with users still making a
 valid point in saying Ubuntu is to hard to install and to yet not usable
 in the same way and everywhere like the systems of our competitors.

The difference here is: The normal end user pretty seldom installs
Windows on his/her own (as in Companies this is done by IT departments
and at home by family members or friends who are more in IT - or it
already comes preinstalled) while Ubuntu they _have to_ install on
their own often because no Linux guy in reach and you can't get so
easily a machine with Linux preinstalled (we are back to bug #1 core
request here).


 All that is not Microsoft's fault. And even a major market share for a
 dinosaur like them is not a problem in the first place. However it
 matters whether our quality is better or not. Bill Gates was wrong when
 he replied to Jobs in the 80's that it doesn't matter. It does matter

Of course quality matters!
And if Ubuntu would be a type of Download one single install medium
for everything - insert install medium - click ok for default install
(or advanced to reach the options for the IT guys) and run
out-of-the-box on any hardware would be awesome so that even a
trained monkey could do it.

But still I see this as a secondary issue because installation is
already quite simple and easier than installing Windows (from scratch
with all the needed drivers).


On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Barry Drake b.dr...@ntlworld.com wrote:
 Part of the problem has to be OUR negative thinking.  We have a problem
 with users still making a valid point in saying Ubuntu is to hard to
 install.  Just try installing Microsoft Windows from scratch.  The last
 fresh install of Ubuntu 13.10 took me less than twenty minutes and
 worked 'out of the box'.  On the same hardware, Windows 7 took about an
 hour plus the time finding drivers ...  Even then the resulting
 installation was far more clunky than the Alpha version of Ubuntu.

Yup, I have similar experiences - but as I mentioned earlier, normal
Users usually don't install their computer on their own. And further:
I know people who bought a new PC (completely new hardware + Windows
preinstalled) because their PC got viruses and they never got an
installation media when buying their PC (and of course didn't know
that somewhere at Microsoft you can download it - BTW never searched
myself for those, I just heard that this is possible).


 [..] their company
 is considering moving to Linux because Microsoft is not secure, and is
 unreliable these days.  Apple is too 'locked in'.  Linux is perfect for
 their needs.

Yes, there are these and other reasons to move to Linux. Despite many
advantages of course there are still issues. For example I am trying
to get a new PC for my wife and on my last attempt about two weeks ago
for the first time I had (and still have) serious issues to get a
Windows-free PC from Dell that is not about 100 % more expensive than
a comparable PC with Windows. And I never had such problems before! So
regarding to Bug #1 for me currently it seems to get even worse than
better.


 As more and more organisations turn to Linux for these
 reasons, then ordinary folk who work for them will want something better
 on their home computers.

My experience is the other way round: Employees want to work on what
they know from home (because grew up with it). Nowadays in schools
there are even laptop-classes where they do everything on their
laptop. Expect those people running their own company later: If they
are more familiar with Ubuntu they will tell their IT department to
install that everywhere. And that's why we are still about 30 years
away from the year of the Linux desktop - because the CEOs 

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Aditya Avinash 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 The usability of windows is easier than ubuntu. Why? It's the mind that plays 
 the game. Every person i know is afraid to install ubuntu on their metal. 
 Why? Because they think of it as a geek, hacker, complex operating 
 system. [...] People like to have easy to deploy and start using utilities. 
 When i first installed ubuntu, it's a pain in the ass.

a) There's barely a normal end-user who self-installs his operating
systems. In the company there are IT departments for preparing the
machine and at home family members or friends who are in IT. Or for
home users even more common: They just take what comes preinstalled
from the shop - and that's where bug 1 gets relevant.

b) If you use certified hardware, the installation is no pain and
works out-of-the-box for the most common stuff.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
Barry has.  Check his recent attachments to this list.  

I'm
 not suggesting ranting.  Richard Stallman seems to get away with it but
 i probably wouldn't.  Barry's approach seemed to be very effective.  
Make them feel the market pull.  The market is changing.  These shops 
will only realise that if increasingly they find that customers ask for 
compatibility with GnuLinux.  

As the age of the desktop 
ends we see people use a plethora of mobile devices, from laptops to 
hand-helds and even down to watches which almost all entirely  run on 
unix-based platforms.  Mostly that is GnuLinux (such as Android, 
Blackberry, soon Ubuntu) but Apple's iThings (iPad, iPhone etc) are also
 strong in the market.  Often devices are used in  a combinations  that 
co-operate with each other.  MS is infamous for taking over rather than 
co-operating.  GnuLinux tends to co-operate.  

There needs 
to be many different layers of approach.  Richard Stallman is good for 
those that are into Direct Action such as ranting or finding the 
specific day that FSF organises for massed returns of desktops to demand
 refunds on unused Microsoft licenses.  Direct action entrenches people 
though and pushes them into fighting back so we need other approaches.  

Class
 actions and legal routes have been used against MS before and MS often 
loses in such cases.  The RTF case.  The web-browser wars.  Generally 
fighting MS in court seems to suck all the energy and drive of an 
organisation.  Opera won against Internet Explorer in court but they 
don't reap the benefit.  At least, not yet.  The companies involved in 
the RTF case similarly vanished.  They won pyrrhic victories.  Court 
action needs to continue but so do other approaches.  

The 
professional approach of Mark Shuttleworth and they way Barry used are 
more likely to result in dialogue that opens the way for businesses to 
realise they need to support the new range of devices that almost 
exclusively don't use Windows.  If they only support Windows in the 
future then a lot of those businesses will go bust.  They need to know 
that.  We need to let them know.  Humour and professionalism go a long 
way.  

As you point out businesses might suffer if they offer 
options at the moment because MS will withdraw support from them.  
However there will be a tipping point where businesses find that they 
can do without the support because so many people have been demanding 
non-MS support.  

It's not the case the 1 approach is good and 
another bad or that 1 way leads to victory and another doesn't.  All 
different ways going on at the same time does seem to be getting there.  


So, if you are in the UK then check out Barry's recent attachments.  Modify and 
apply for yourself.  
Regards from 
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[houstonbofh]

On 05/08/2013 06:27 AM, Graham wrote:
 If I walked into a PC World and started ranting off about the lack of support 
 for Linux I would be escorted off the premises.
 And you know it.

 As far as complaining to the CEO...  have you considered what is in it
 for them?

 Do you think you could provide a business case why PC world should
 invest in Linux products if there is no market pull and no return?

This is where my patch comes in.  I am a consultant, and for all of my 
clients, including full Windows shops, I only recommend hardware with 
Linux support.  I say this directly to vendors.  When asked why, I say;

Linux driver support is a demonstration of the vendor commitment to 
driver support in general.  If they will not support Linux, why should I 
think they will support Windows 9?  Or Chromebook?  Or whatever comes 
next?  By only using vendors with a high commitment to driver support, I 
am making the best plans I can to maximize my investment.

There is your business case to only purchase Linux supported hardware. 
And that significantly increases the size of your market.

Lee

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Graham ubu...@grahams.idps.co.uk wrote:
 If I walked into a PC World and started ranting off about the lack of support 
 for Linux I would be escorted off the premises.
 And you know it.

And that's why sometimes Linux folks are put into the same basket as
anarchists or even terrorists.


 As far as complaining to the CEO...  have you considered what is in it for 
 them?

That's indeed one of the first problems: While the IT admins and
developers are mostly already pro-Linux and some users even, it's the
CEOs that decide. And that's why the year of the Linux desktop will
not come before the young pro-Linux users get into CEO positions
(which I think may probably occur in 30 years - if so).

In my opinion a switch to Open Source pays off in the long run. Most
managers do consider only the next quarter, so here already begins the
problem.


 Do you think you could provide a business case why PC world should
 invest in Linux products if there is no market pull and no return?

Only yesterday I had a discussion with an IT admin about some software
and he complained, that he would use more platform independent
software or Linux software if there would exist the appropriate
software. The point is: As long as the customers are not telling
company xyz: Hey, your product looked interesting, but you don't
support Linux so I don't buy it, no vendor sees the need to act.
Fortunately some vendors care in the meantime.

Only if the customers say no - definitely no - to propriatary
solutions, vendors need to act accordingly.


 This is what they are being told by the Microsoft.
 with a side salad of withdrawing volume discounts if they even dare to 
 speak the word Linux.

And this is what we have seen with Dell...


 Like I say, I hate that this is the situation, but we are not dealing with a 
 level playing field here.
 This is why it needs a class action case to level the playing field.

Agree with you.

Best regards, Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
+1

Long gone are the days of behaving like a gentleman and getting treated
with respect as a result.  If you think you might be shyembarrassed
then read up on Richard Stallman's philosophies or get the slightly more
corporate approach from the Free Software Foundation.  Either should
help you clarify your thoughts and maybe give you ideas or good
justifications.

Regards from

Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)Lol, nice!  Errr, you realise this is an intenational online
resource that may stand forever?

Also that this bug-repoort is usually used for general gripping or for
occasionally shouts of triumph/joy.

It's not usually used as a marketing list for assessing specific strategies or 
ideas.  There must be a marketing list or something that would really 
appreciate all this work a lot more and be able to use the intelligence.  Now 
that it is up and avilable it might be easier for anyone in marketing to get 
hold of and use.  So, the effort is NOT wasted!  Far from it, i have really 
enjoyed it.  I'm not on any of the marketing lists and have been getting 
increasingly down-hearted about the scene in the UK so it's been a really 
positive boost to see someone really pushing and getting good results here.  
Timing could not have been better because in local elections on Thursday we 
have just voted in an increasingly right-wing, almost fascist, government that 
is increasingly dedicated to increasing the wealth of the rich and the poverty 
of the poor.  UKIP got 15%-25% of the vote!! :(   So, it's good to see an 
international open movement having success
 here.  

Thanks and retards from  
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Barry Drake]

On 05/05/13 20:24, Tom wrote:
 It's not usually used as a marketing list for assessing specific strategies 
 or ideas.  There must be a marketing list or something that would really 
 appreciate all this work a lot more and be able to use the intelligence.  Now 
 that it is up and avilable it might be easier for anyone in marketing to get 
 hold of and use.  So, the effort is NOT wasted!  Far from it, i have really 
 enjoyed it.  I'm not on any of the marketing lists and have been getting 
 increasingly down-hearted about the scene in the UK so it's been a really 
 positive boost to see someone really pushing and getting good results here.  
 Timing could not have been better because in local elections on Thursday we 
 have just voted in an increasingly right-wing, almost fascist, government 
 that is increasingly dedicated to increasing the wealth of the rich and the 
 poverty of the poor.  UKIP got 15%-25% of the vote!! :(   So, it's good to 
 see an international open movement having success
   here.

Oh, this is exactly why I spammed this bug!  I have spent many hours on 
Ubuntu Marketing, Ubunty Advertising et al.  With no effect because we 
have received little or not support from Canonical, and infighting has 
taken care of the rest!

Ubuntu is a fantastic community, but is is too fragmented and anarchic 
to debug this particular bug!

-- Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Hi,

On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Barry Drake b.dr...@ntlworld.com wrote:
 Ubuntu is a fantastic community, but is is too fragmented and anarchic
 to debug this particular bug!

If Ubuntu would be a terror organisation, I think everybody would see
exactly that - the thinking global and acting locally as the most
dangerous thing. ;-)

And by the way - this is called mission-type tactics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission-type_tactics
;-)

Best regards, Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
When this bug-report was first posted the IT world was a very different place.  
I think it was even before netbooks!  


There are a couple of ironies now
1.  The long awaited Year of the Linux Desktop is already happening but we 
kinda missed it or don't notice it because it's not about desktops anymore.  
It's about mobile devices such as hand-helds, tablets and the rest.  

2.  People happily use Android, Blackberries and others without even seeming to 
realise it's not MS.  Even while tapping away at their Androids or Blackberry 
they state that they would never use Linux or that there is no option other 
than Windows or they make other absurd statements. 
3.  If Netbooks hadn't been around already and just newly arrived now then Win8 
wouldn't need to be touch-screen to run on them.  Which might have saved MS a 
bit of a headache and allowed them to keep a more familiar UI and compete 
favourably against tablets.  By killing off netbooks they have ended up with a 
UI that is hated by WIndows fanboys (and girlies) and forced into competing in 
an unfamiliar market that they've already lost.  Dohh!!  

The question is will we work together and ensure it stays the Year of the 
Linux Mobile Devices or will Android, Blackberry and others fall to bitter 
in-fighting leaving MS clear to waltz to the finish line?  
Regards from 
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
Are you sure you are not Torrenting something?  I usually deliberately leave my 
torrenting-client on for a while after i download something with the aim of 
uploading it 2 or 3 times before switching it off.  The defaults are to upload 
as much as possible but i usually throttle that down using the 
torrenting-clients settings menu.  

Have you donwloaded something recently that downloaded quite quickly?  If so 
that was probably a torrented file and you are still letting it get uploaded 
from your machine.   
Regards from
Tom :)  




 From: Martyn Vallett 

snip /


 noticed that my system was uploading at
it's maxiumum rate. (Which in my case is about 30kb/s) This was leaving
barely anything for surfing the web. 




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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Martyn Vallett 1...@bugs.launchpad.net:
 How do I do that? (I didn't even know that was possible...)

It looks like you are pretty fast in making conclusions without enough
proove. You could use tcpdump or wireshark to investigate traffic - as
maybe it's just ubuntuone. Use the inotify tools (just google for it)
to check what local files are accessed. But first of all: This is not
a topic for bug one - please file a new bug using ubuntu-bug on the
commandline.

Regards, Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[houstonbofh]

 I had already turned it off, and then it decided to leak the data. I am
 also curious what the 'Data' that it was sending was.

There are three things off the top of my head that could be 
communicating back...  The Amazon silliness, Landscape and Popularity 
Contest (popcon) assuming, of course, that the system updates are not 
what you are seeing.  If you could narrow this down for us, it would help.

Lee

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 8:40 AM, Martyn Vallett 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 I had already turned it off, and then it decided to leak the data. I am
 also curious what the 'Data' that it was sending was.

Do you have more details on the data or how you discovered the leak?
For example the update manager is of course checking for updates from
time to time (not only at reboot) so what you noticed could also be
this. Similar if you are using Ubuntu one - then of course there is
data transfer from and to Canonical which would be no wonder.


 I personally believe that if this 'feature' must be incorparated, it
 should at least ask the user if they want it installed during an update/
 fresh install. Or at least have it turned off by default. (Although my
 preference is for it to NOT be installed)

I agree with you: The user should be asked at first logon if he/she
wants to enable online searches and the like in the dash.

Regards, Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 11:17 PM, Martyn Vallett 1...@bugs.launchpad.net 
wrote:
 Do you have more details on the data or how you discovered the leak?

 I was causually surfing the web and I noticed it was overly laggy, so I
 went into the system monitor and noticed that my system was uploading at
 it's maxiumum rate. (Which in my case is about 30kb/s) This was leaving
 barely anything for surfing the web. Becuase the upload was so desprate
 to send itself I could only achive a download rate of 20-30kb/s (When
 it's normally 160-170Kb/s)

What? You didn't grab a real data-stream and investigated the content?

regards, Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

 Another problem that should be fixed in ubuntu is the data leaks caused
by the spyware of the webapps.

Not again!
Yes, it was not really ok to add the amazon and online search. I think,
even Canonical knows in the meantime that everybody else in the community
dislikes that.

But please, there is the switch to turn it off even in the GUI of the
privacy settings, so this is not really a problem!

On the other hand, the rookie computer user mostly cannot even distinguish
between the url location field and the google search in the browser (that's
why browsers and google managed both to implement both functions). So I do
see a logic in the idea of Canonical to incorporate everything into the
dash because the rookie user will expect to find everything from there.

 On one particular occasion I experienced a MASSIVE data leak beaming to
an IP address owned by canonical.

Otherwise it would be Google or Microsoft collecting your data - or -
mostly ignored: Your internet provider.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
The best place to get normal Ubuntu from is
http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop
and avoid installing apport.  

It sounds like you are looking for trouble by trying to use unstable
alpha-test versions that would only normally be used by certain devs
working on fairly specific projects.  Most of us never use any of that.
We tend to stick with stable versions and in most cases the more stable
the better.


Almost all 'my' machines only have 12.04 LTS.  It's easier to maintain.  A 
couple still have 10.04 LTS (again because it's easy to look after) but they 
almost never get used.  It's only my own home machine and the one i actually 
use almost all the time at work that multi-boot into other systems.  Errr, they 
all have Windows as a dual-boot.  None have apport and i have never used it.  

I get the feeling that you either are a dev or that devs have somehow
convinced you that unstable experimental versions are 'better'.  When i
first tried moving from Windows i was looking for the best of the
bewildering amount of choices and somehow settled on the server edition.
It took me a while to figure out that what i really needed was a normal,
reliable desktop.

Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
Sorry, i didn't mean you were deliberately seeking out trouble.  Just that it 
seems you have done what most of us did in our early days too.  There is a LOT 
of advice out there and not all of it is good for all occasions.  


Often people claim that the only legitimate way of doing anything is to do it 
exactly the way they do it.  They imply that any variation on what they do is 
foolish = you have to get it exactly 'right' (according to them).  However they 
seldom tell us why their way is 'better' and when they do it turns out that 
while their way might be best for them it's actually completely the opposite of 
what would be right for you.  

The 11.10 was a bit of a nightmare for a lot of us and the 11.04  (6months 
earlier) was even worse.  Generally i find the 6monthly releases are Ok but the 
LTSes are much better (for me) because i find them much more stable.  It does 
mean i don't always get the cutting edge versions of things but to me that just 
means i bleed less.  
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 6:16 AM, MDV 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 Firstly something that would appeal to the gaming market is an
 overclocking and underclocking feature, as some people prefer to do
 overclocking in their OS, but we don't appear to have any such programs.
 And other groups like to underclock their laptops to help fix
 overheating problems..

http://helpdeskgeek.com/linux-tips/control-your-cpu-speed-from-the-
ubuntu-indicator-applet/


 Secondly, something really needs to stop is Ubuntu spamming error messages 
 when there is a problem.
 For example when Ubuntu has lost it's internet connection it will spam you to 
 type the password in atleast
 half a dozen times

Yes, you are right. I usually choose in the network menu to
disconnect, when I face longer offline time.
Of course then I don't see immediately when it is back - I have to
test from time to time.


 and when a program has crashed apport wil spam you to report the problem 
 atleast half a dozen times.

In former times I got the option to report a bug and launchpad site
was opened. Now it is the same shit as with Windows - I don't know if
and where the error will be reported/posted to. In reality I don't see
those messages as spam - I want to see if there is a problem and I
do not want it to silently fail. However, the idea should be to get
the appropriate stability in the way that those problems get fixed
instead of muting the messages!


 Thirdly, we NEED some form of advertising, as Micro$oft has almost
 fallen of its throne. Ads on the TV (For example) that tell people that
 Linux is the most secure OS ever and doen't get viruses would get people
 to make the switch. (But would the switch also cause undetected security
 problems to show themselves after being exploited by hackers?)

MS really puts more and more advetising - too much advertising I have
often seen as the last action of getting customers - when there is no
more innovation and other reasons why people should buy the product. I
am pretty sure, there will be a momentum of change in the masses even
without much publicity. In fact, if many people would - in a gold rush
- switch to Linux or Ubuntu in particular, I am pretty sure I would be
affected negatively at least in update download rates, so basically I
wouldn't see an advantage for me having the others going Linux.
However: We need more Linux and Ubuntu users just for the sake of
getting the appropriate respect by the software and hardware vendors.
Currently far too many vendors do not consider users that are not
using Windows (even Mac is still widely ignored).


 Fourthly: Stability. Ubuntu definatly needs a netbook version again, as
 Ubuntu runs horribly on intel atom processors and lags like hell (I
 tried running Ubuntu on a 1.6Ghz dual-core intel atom that had 1gb of
 ram). However smaller distros like lubuntu seem to work well.

 Also, something as stupid as nautilus crashing when idle needs to be
fixed.

I have several Ubuntu desktops, laptops and a netbook running where I
have regular access too and it is a while ago when I had those
annoying nautilus crashes the last time.

This bug here is expired - but anyway, I don't experience it any more:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/404351

And don't remember where I faced this one:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/905686
But although does not seem to be fixed yet, I don't experience it any more.

But don't know which bug you mean...

Generally spoken, I find it a nice presentation of Mark at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpWHJDLsqTU
and I find that Ubuntu does innovate, however at 1:00 he cites several
reviews and I must say: At the beginning of 12.04 I had a lot of
issues and only since manually updating to 3.5-Kernel I got my 12.04
stable. So from my experience 10.04 was a lot more stable than 12.04
(without the manual hacking)!

Best regards, Martin Wildam.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
I don't have any of those problems.  

Perhaps you need to check that you have an official Cd or downloaded
from the official website and then md5sum or Sha check the Cd or Usb
that you use to install Ubuntu.

1.  Overclocking and underclocking.  Doesn't this need to be done from
inside the bios or by physical changes to the hardware?  I've not heard
of anyone being able to do this from inside any OS.  I agree it would be
good if Ubuntu could lead the way on this.

2.  If my internet connection drops out i just get a discrete
notification and the icon on the top taskbar changes to show i have no
network connection.  None of that grabs focus and i can keep typing
without interference.  With crash reports i get a pop-up dialogue just
once and have to cancel or allow it (ie it grabs focus).  Either way it
doesn't appear a 2nd time.  The only place i've seen the type of
behaviour that MDV described was in Windows, never in any GnuLinux.

3.  Advertising would be great.  Public perception of OpenSource vs MS
is generally exactly the opposite of reality.

A good example is that greater numbers of desktop users would NOT
increase security problems.  Currently malware and remote attackers
focus on desktop machines despite that only affecting 1 person at a time
and thus being an extremely inefficient method of attacking people.
Attacking a server would affect far more people.  A single server going
down could affect hundreds or thousand of people rather than just 1.
The reason we don't see more servers getting attacked and taken down
could have something to do with the fact that almost no serious servers
run Windows.  Servers almost entirely run unix-based platforms such as
Bsd or GnuLinux.

4.  Dunno.  I've not tried running Ubuntu on Atoms.  However, on
extremely low spec machines i have found Ubuntu 12.04 (using Unity) runs
a LOT better than 8.04 or 10.04 (using Gnome).  10.04 was fine but 12.04
is better.  Few to no crashes and no  problems.  Windows on the same
machine constantly runs into problems.

I've not had nautilus crash when idle even when i have many tabs open
and some of those looking at local folders and others at networked file-
shares.


Summary
So, it sounds to me like MDV either has a corrupted version of Ubuntu or is 
getting the errors on Windows and somehow think they are on Ubuntu.  I would 
recommend buying some official Ubuntu Cds from the Canonical store and also try 
re-downloading Ubuntu from the official website.  It would be nice to nkow 
where he/she got the version of Ubuntu from so that we could try to stop 
corrupted versions from being distributed.  

Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
Wow!!  Some good links there from other people!  


There was 1 release that had a lot of problems with segmentation faults.  
That got fixed and doesn't seem to have reappeared in any of the subsequent 
releases in the last few years.  


Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Achilles12]

Tom, 
I agree with you. I also have the same response as yours to those problems. 
Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone

-Original Message-
From: Tom 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
Sender: boun...@canonical.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 11:16:48 
To: cvg1.cool@gmail.com
Reply-To: Bug 1 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

Hi :)
I don't have any of those problems.  

Perhaps you need to check that you have an official Cd or downloaded
from the official website and then md5sum or Sha check the Cd or Usb
that you use to install Ubuntu.

1.  Overclocking and underclocking.  Doesn't this need to be done from
inside the bios or by physical changes to the hardware?  I've not heard
of anyone being able to do this from inside any OS.  I agree it would be
good if Ubuntu could lead the way on this.

2.  If my internet connection drops out i just get a discrete
notification and the icon on the top taskbar changes to show i have no
network connection.  None of that grabs focus and i can keep typing
without interference.  With crash reports i get a pop-up dialogue just
once and have to cancel or allow it (ie it grabs focus).  Either way it
doesn't appear a 2nd time.  The only place i've seen the type of
behaviour that MDV described was in Windows, never in any GnuLinux.

3.  Advertising would be great.  Public perception of OpenSource vs MS
is generally exactly the opposite of reality.

A good example is that greater numbers of desktop users would NOT
increase security problems.  Currently malware and remote attackers
focus on desktop machines despite that only affecting 1 person at a time
and thus being an extremely inefficient method of attacking people.
Attacking a server would affect far more people.  A single server going
down could affect hundreds or thousand of people rather than just 1.
The reason we don't see more servers getting attacked and taken down
could have something to do with the fact that almost no serious servers
run Windows.  Servers almost entirely run unix-based platforms such as
Bsd or GnuLinux.

4.  Dunno.  I've not tried running Ubuntu on Atoms.  However, on
extremely low spec machines i have found Ubuntu 12.04 (using Unity) runs
a LOT better than 8.04 or 10.04 (using Gnome).  10.04 was fine but 12.04
is better.  Few to no crashes and no  problems.  Windows on the same
machine constantly runs into problems.

I've not had nautilus crash when idle even when i have many tabs open
and some of those looking at local folders and others at networked file-
shares.


Summary
So, it sounds to me like MDV either has a corrupted version of Ubuntu or is 
getting the errors on Windows and somehow think they are on Ubuntu.  I would 
recommend buying some official Ubuntu Cds from the Canonical store and also try 
re-downloading Ubuntu from the official website.  It would be nice to nkow 
where he/she got the version of Ubuntu from so that we could try to stop 
corrupted versions from being distributed.  

Regards from
Tom :)

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

Status in Club Distro:
  Confirmed
Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
  Confirmed
Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
  New
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  Invalid
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  Invalid
Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
  Invalid
Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
  Invalid
Status in JAK LINUX:
  Invalid
Status in LibreOffice:
  In Progress
Status in The Linux Kernel:
  New
Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
  In Progress
Status in The Linux OS Project:
  In Progress
Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
  In Progress
Status in Tabuntu:
  Invalid
Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
  Invalid
Status in Tv-Player:
  Invalid
Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
  In Progress
Status in Ubuntu:
  In Progress
Status in Arch Linux:
  Confirmed
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  Invalid
Status in “linux” package in Debian:
  In Progress
Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
  Confirmed
Status in openSUSE:
  In Progress
Status in Tilix Linux:
  New

Bug description:
  Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
  marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
  to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
  driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
  all.

  Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software gives 
everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with whoever they 
like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the spectrum it enables the 
Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective experience and expertise to 
continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the other, we are able to give access 
to essential software for those who couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage 
that’s

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Tom 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 Perhaps you need to check that you have an official Cd or downloaded
 from the official website and then md5sum or Sha check the Cd or Usb
 that you use to install Ubuntu.

I only use images from the official download page and while I
installed my main 12.04 laptop (that I use for my work) from the
original 12.04 image now I only have the 12.04.1 image left, so I
cannot re-check the image as I don't have it any more.

And apart from that - I am usually not alone with my problems - e.g.
some of the kernel problems I had, I reported them directly to the
kernel folks and got confirmed.

What is far more probably the case: I have a lot of stuff installed
(no games, no Wine but VMware, Virtualbox, Citrix, several VPN clients
I need to access customers, 2 different versions of TeamViewer, etc
etc). My experience with others where I install and support Ubuntu is
that especially for distribution upgrades they tend to fail as soon as
you do a little non-standard stuff (add some repositories for
particular needs and the like).


 1.  Overclocking and underclocking.  Doesn't this need to be done from
 inside the bios or by physical changes to the hardware?  I've not heard
 of anyone being able to do this from inside any OS.  I agree it would be
 good if Ubuntu could lead the way on this.

My netbook offers switching from the panel - with the tool I mentioned
above. Maybe it's just a fake - I never digged into it. ;-)


 2.  If my internet connection drops out i just get a discrete
 notification and the icon on the top taskbar changes to show i have no
 network connection.  None of that grabs focus and i can keep typing
 without interference.

Yes, you are right, when internet connection just drops that e.g. DNS
down or so. But if the WLAN-Router is rebooted then you get those
password dialogs.


 A good example is that greater numbers of desktop users would NOT
 increase security problems.  Currently malware and remote attackers
 focus on desktop machines despite that only affecting 1 person at a time
 and thus being an extremely inefficient method of attacking people.

But the attacks mostly done automatically from infected servers.
Indeed two days ago at a family member I have seen a virus setting DNS
servers to a server at Google - so you can be sure that there are even
servers at Google that are hijacked!

Also have seen even online-banking servers being hijacked and
distributing viruses over the browser. Servers do get infected!
And yes, even those that are running Linux!
I have seen hijacked Linux-servers. However in those cases they always
got into the system through PHP issues.

Best regard, Martin

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)

Martin, i wasn't referring to you having bad Cd images, i was referring
to the person that seems to have had multiple problems that the rest of
us hasn't (or only had in certain unusual cases when doing something
quite peculiar).


I am curious about setting up a login to a Ctirx server btw.  Could you give 
links or contact me off-list?
tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk

I wasn't aware of the options to overunder clock systems from inside
OSes.  I've only ever done that sort of thing inside the bios and by
carefully selecting appropriate hardware (well, i have a  colleague who
sorts my hardware tbh).  Also i've played around with quite a few fairly
low-spec machines but not actual netbooks.


With regards to supporting other people i tend to find that it really doesn't 
matter which OS they are given or how much help and advice they are given they 
somehow always manage to stuff up whichever system they are given.  Of course 
some few exceptions.  Typically i find the easiest ones to recover from and 
solve are Ubuntu or other OpenSource systems.  The most intractable ones tend 
to be Windows systems that have become infected or where the user themselves 
has managed to actively destroy things.  


Wrt the banking sector's idea of security i have to say that banks seem to have 
the number 1 most appalling security.  They have insisted on me installing 
ActiveX and Java in order to use their systems despite many high profile cases 
of malware and remote attackers using those to compromise systems.  It seems 
they want me to installing unsafe systems in order to be able to blame me when 
things go wrong.  If they used the same type of security advice for their 
physical assets then they would regularly be getting robbed by kids with 
water-pistols or old men with a bottle-in-a-bag.  It honestly would not 
surprise me to learn they were using Windows 1998 server (home), unpatched, and 
with passwords such as password


Wrt the virus resetting DNS to Google servers that somehow seems a bit t 
obvious.  The fact that there was a problem was found fairly easily.  
Presumably even the weeu (wide eyed end user) noticed their machine was having 
a problem.  

Also a LOT of times i find that people claim to have become infected by
some sort of virus as a way out of admitting they might have done
something themselves to create the problem.  It's better than them
admitting to having gone to a reported attack site, downloaded
something, chosen to run it and ok'd the computer's grumble!  Ok, so
i've not found people doing that but they do somehow install all sorts
of strange crap and then blame anyone but themselves for having tons of
toolbars in their web-browser.


The only time i have heard of GnuLinux servers getting compromised was 

1.  Under coordinated attacks from thousands or millions of machines all at the 
same time
2.  One network of servers that was left unpatched for 6 years and didn't even 
have a maintenance chap sweeping away cobwebs between machines!  Not even so 
much as a reboot or even a glance through their logs.  

On the other hand i have seen people having to reboot Windows servers
every few days and keep patched wekly and put a lot of time into dealing
with all sorts of petty issues even for a simple internet-gateway,
little more than a router really.


As for GnuLinux getting infected it's a relative term.  People i have had to 
trust have given me infected files which my system remained immune to and 
oblivious of and then i have passed the file on to other people.  Nowadays i 
tend to run an antivirus program purely to stop myself accidentally passing on 
such infected files from other people.  

People such as Google are known to respond quickly if/when problems
arise.  They don't spend the best part of 3 years adamantly insisting
there is no problem and that you should buy certain stuff to fix it and
then finally admit that there was a problem all that time but buying
their newer release fixes all that.


Regards from
Tom :)

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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
+1
I think MDV somehow got a corrupted Cd or else was using Windows and didn't 
notice.  I've done it myself sometimes at work.  Xp and Ubuntu feel so 
comfortable, even the 12.04.  


Win7 is not to bad either although it's a bit weird to get a pop-up box 
demanding to know if you want to do what you just asked it to do.  At least 
with Win7 it gives a clue about what it's talking about so you are not just 
ok'ing things randomly (i'm sooo glad to have leap-frogged past Vista!)


Regards from
Tom :)  




 From: Achilles12 
 
Tom, 
I agree with you. I also have the same response as yours to those problems. 
Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone




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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Tom 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 I am curious about setting up a login to a Ctirx server btw.  Could you give 
 links or contact me off-list?

I have sent you information.


 Also a LOT of times i find that people claim to have become infected by
 some sort of virus as a way out of admitting they might have done
 something themselves to create the problem. [...]  Ok, so
 i've not found people doing that but they do somehow install all sorts
 of strange crap and then blame anyone but themselves for having tons of
 toolbars in their web-browser.

In the case I mentioned there were viruses - definitely. And with IE
(needed for work by this person) without any adblocker etc whereever
you go you see at least 5 download buttons -  even if you don't want
to - it is easy to accidently download wrong things. Horror!


 1.  Under coordinated attacks from thousands or millions of machines all at 
 the same time
 2.  One network of servers that was left unpatched for 6 years and didn't 
 even have a maintenance chap sweeping away
 cobwebs between machines!  Not even so much as a reboot or even a glance 
 through their logs.

I worked at a company where security issues of several web apps
(written in PHP) were used to drop other PHP web apps and so they got
an MP3 and video host (of course just for a while until the admin
noticed it).


 On the other hand i have seen people having to reboot Windows servers
 every few days and keep patched wekly and put a lot of time into dealing
 with all sorts of petty issues even for a simple internet-gateway,
 little more than a router really.

Yup, I know. Of course, windows usually needs more attention. However,
in such things I don't want to compare a pitty situation (Linux) with
a total desaster (Windows). I want to have problems solved instead of
being happy, that I am not worse. ;-)


 As for GnuLinux getting infected it's a relative term.  People i have had to 
 trust have given me infected files which my
 system remained immune to and oblivious of and then i have passed the file on 
 to other people.
 Nowadays i tend to run an antivirus program purely to stop myself 
 accidentally passing on such infected files from other
 people.

Some people say that if Linux would be more widely used there would be
more virus for it. I am not sure - I think there are some differences
in the system (e.g. the executable flag) that make life harder for a
Virus. Other things, like not working with full admin permissions is
something that in the meantime even Windows users do in many cases and
something like sudo (confirm administrative tasks) also exists on
Windows in the meantime.


 People such as Google are known to respond quickly if/when problems
 arise. They don't spend the best part of 3 years adamantly insisting
 there is no problem

Don't know - I have written them of the probably hijacked server, but
no response since then.

Greetings, Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
Thanks for the off-list help there Marin :)  Should help improve my 
relationship with my boss :)

All Windows 'security' seems to be just a layer added on top of a
fundamentally insecure system.  Where Win7 appears to have something
similar to sudo or gksu that really feels like something that is just on
the surface.  Programs need to operate without constantly asking the
users permissions but have they all really been totally re-written so
that they never need SuperUser permissions?


Have you tried surfing with cookies being totally blocked?  Even microsoft.com 
gives a dozen pop-up asking you to accept this or that cookie with no real 
detail about the individual cookies.  You just have to either
1.  accept pretty much all unknown cookies or 

2.  forget even legitimate and 'safe' websurfing (ie NO 3rd party sites,
only ones condoned by MS and security advisers)


I know what you mean about not wanting to be just better and safer but really 
being safe.  The way i think of it is that with GnuLinux i feel about 90% 
safe, perhaps 99% safe.  With Windows i feel about 9% safe.  Almost all the 
time i take actions to stay safe in GnuLinux it feels like it's just me being 
pedantic and unnecessary.  In Windows it seems the slightest thing can cause 
problems.  


Regards from
Tom :)

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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Tom 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 Thanks for the off-list help there Marin :)  Should help improve my 
 relationship with my boss :)

Sounds familiar to me... ;-)


 Programs need to operate without constantly asking the
 users permissions but have they all really been totally re-written so
 that they never need SuperUser permissions?

I don't think so - with Windows 7 (or XP service pack something don't
know exactly), Windows even learned the symlink thing which can help
here (however most windows folks still don't know that they can do
this now using mklink... ;-) ).


 Have you tried surfing with cookies being totally blocked?  Even 
 microsoft.com gives a dozen pop-up asking
 you to accept this or that cookie with no real detail about the individual 
 cookies.

It's not only the cookies - on several sites you already have to allow
some included third-party web-site-java-scripting (either referencing
to other websites) to allow display of advertising until they show you
the real site content. So they urge you to view the advertising also -
otherwise nothing. But this affects every OS putting them on a higher
risk.


 I know what you mean about not wanting to be just better and safer but really 
 being safe.
 [...]
 In Windows it seems the slightest thing can cause problems.

I was also able to keep my Windows clean of Viruses - until 2009 where
I fully switched - because I had my ad- and script-blockers and I know
where to pay attention and what not to do. But there are plenty of
people, even working in IT, who get viruses because they forget to be
careful.

I would be really interestet in hearing the opinion of an expert if
Linux is really safer than Windows or only the fact that 90% of users
running Windows make that OS the most attacked ones at client side. I
am pretty sure that at server-side there is full attention of hackers
is on Linux-machines but I don't know anything about statistics how
many Linux servers get hijacked to end up in a bot-net.

Best regards, Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
There might be proprietary software in the Software Centre but that is like 
saying you can't walk into a high-street shop if you have no intention of 
buying anything.  

Of course you can still buy and sell Cds or Dvds with Ubuntu on and of
course you can still sell support services either by the hour or as
structured support for for a given length of time or whatever.  Selling
the Cds/Dvds has always  been a bit of a moral grey area = it's allowed
by the GPL but people sometimes tend to feel it's wrong somehow.
Selling support is fine and puts you in an open competitive  market with
plenty of fair competition that people could look-up online.

Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Ramchandra Apte]

+1


On 17 January 2013 17:26, Tom 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:

 Hi :)
 There might be proprietary software in the Software Centre but that is
 like saying you can't walk into a high-street shop if you have no intention
 of buying anything.

 Of course you can still buy and sell Cds or Dvds with Ubuntu on and of
 course you can still sell support services either by the hour or as
 structured support for for a given length of time or whatever.  Selling
 the Cds/Dvds has always  been a bit of a moral grey area = it's allowed
 by the GPL but people sometimes tend to feel it's wrong somehow.
 Selling support is fine and puts you in an open competitive  market with
 plenty of fair competition that people could look-up online.

 Regards from
 Tom :)

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 Title:
   Microsoft has a majority market share

 Status in Club Distro:
   Confirmed
 Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
   Confirmed
 Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
   New
 Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
   Invalid
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   Invalid
 Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
   Invalid
 Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
   Invalid
 Status in JAK LINUX:
   Invalid
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   In Progress
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   New
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   In Progress
 Status in The Linux OS Project:
   In Progress
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   In Progress
 Status in Tabuntu:
   Invalid
 Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
   Invalid
 Status in Tv-Player:
   Invalid
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   In Progress
 Status in Ubuntu:
   In Progress
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   Confirmed
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   Invalid
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   In Progress
 Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
   Confirmed
 Status in openSUSE:
   In Progress
 Status in Tilix Linux:
   New

 Bug description:
   Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
   marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
   to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
   driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
   all.

   Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software
 gives everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with
 whoever they like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the
 spectrum it enables the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective
 experience and expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the
 other, we are able to give access to essential software for those who
 couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by
 individuals and organisations all over the world.
* http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy

   Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
   concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
   the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
   innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
   anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
   practices.

   This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.

   Steps to repeat:

   1. Visit a local PC store.
   2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.

   What happens:

   Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
   installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
   system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
   proprietary.

   What should happen:

   A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.

* http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
* http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
* http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Hi,

not sure, if anybody who can make decisions is still reading this, but
I have installed Ubuntu 12.10 for a total beginner (this is what
Ubuntu claims to be most adapted for):

a) Never ever a total beginner is able to install and setup Ubuntu on
his own - will always need help (I already wrote that a while ago)!
This does not apply only for the installation and basic configuration,
but also for online accounts (register new accounts - reuse existing
ones - most people don't even remember or write down their passwords,
decision what application to use for what task (depending on the
person and tasks there can be major differences). Not all of this can
be made simpler by the operating system.

b) I just felt lucky to install the newest 12.10 (instead of the 12.04
that has been previously there on the same machine) and unfortunately
- although already a good while ago the release - I rushed into a few
annoying bugs like
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/1069504
or https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/848164
(quite similar bug descriptions). That ever worked since 10.04 as far
as I remember - and now it does not - where this feature was never so
important for me as it is now because the very beginner user (even
beginner in mouse handling) now needs 2 more clicks onto ... ... an
icon that cannot be made bigger (person also does not see very, very
good).

c) Apart from the fact that I did not have the impression that with
the switch to upstart the startup process really got faster (on a
two-processor-machine) it also seems to introduce problems. On my
machine sometimes compiz does not come up fine, but who cares, I can
restart it manually if it does not because I did the login too fast.
But in this case I set the autologin for the beginner user and now I
experience different problems that might occur as skype not started
which happened once or - even worse - network manager is disabling
wireless network after autologin. So now I must also train the user to
make sure the right checkmarks are activated.

d) For the beginner user the buttons for closing the window are too
small. While that was no problem on Gnome2 in Ubuntu 9.04 up to 10.04
with the introduction of Gnome 3 and unity those buttons simply don't
grow when I increase the font size in Universal access - and I cannot
do this in the same way (by specifying the dpi) I could under Gnome 2
- Now I have only 3 choices (as in Windows 8-P). But at least on
Windows the Window-Buttons grow together with the fonts.

e) For recharging the mobile internet stick I had to register at the
provider homepage with the stick's number and it sent me an SMS
message. Guess what: I could not find any crappy application that was
able to read the messages from the huawei USB stick (that fortunately
worked out-of-the-box to get the internet connection). Finally I put
the USIM card into one of my older phones and read the mesage with the
initial password there. - Is this meant to be user friendly?

f) I experience several options for the display not working as
disabling of dimming of the screen. Somehow changing the settings and
disabling the ambient light sensor in the bios now brought an
acceptable solution - that worked on 10.04 on the same machine for
sure!

And so on and so forth! - I am really loosing the will of frickling
around - neither with Windows nor with Linux - it is so sad, that such
things do not work fine but on the other hand focus is put elsewhere
(Amazon lenses and Ubuntu-Phones for example) while the laptop or PC
is still (for a long, long time, I would bet) a very important tool. I
am really loosing all kind of joy that way...

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
Also i think it might help to just run a standard programs updates/upgrades 
while sticking with the 12.04 LTS.  With the Unity interface i usually use the 
Software Manager to install Synaptic Package Manager and then do all my 
installs and upgrading from Synaptic.  Dunno what came as standard but i tend 
to add Gimp and a few other things for my work.  


It really should all work out of the box.  I'm sure Canonical would be very 
interested to hear that there are problems.  

Good luck and regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
If you have really been using Ubuntu for 8 years then it seems 
really strange to try using this thread to contact officials.  I'm 
sure you would have found better ways over the years.   

Also it 
seems strange that the 1st thing you tried was installing Windows!  
Freshly installed Windows systems often need a lot of extra programs to 
be installed and then a lot of updatsreboot cycles.  Even newly 
bought Windows machines often need it and need their teething troubles
 sorted too.  I think most people with even just 1 years experience of 
using any GnuLinux distro would have simply tried a different 
version of Ubuntu and/or another distro or 2 (such as Mint).  
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Hi,

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Tom 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 If you have really been using Ubuntu for 8 years then it seems
 really strange to try using this thread to contact officials.  I'm
 sure you would have found better ways over the years.

I am not sure what is the best way to reach the official
Canonical-members (not talking about the staff in the support or
development - I am talking about the managers). I even tried emailing
Jono some time ago and never got a response.

The main reason why I am still subscribed to this bug is because once
- a longer while ago there was a comment from Mark Shuttleworth (if
authentical) and I hope he is sometimes having a look here.


 Also it
 seems strange that the 1st thing you tried was installing Windows!

As far as I understood, it was already there. But anyway, I remember
times when Ubuntu was claiming to solve a lot of problems, Windows
users had - now the argument I see more often lately is this or
that is not better on Windows.


 using any GnuLinux distro would have simply tried a different
 version of Ubuntu and/or another distro or 2 (such as Mint).

Yes, but after some time you get also tired of distro-hopping. And
however, I do see stability problems rising in pretty all
distributions.

Regards, Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Ma Xiaojun]

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 9:19 AM, pirast 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 Hi Ma, thanks for your commitment :)
 The Dell support does not have a clue, and on the Ubuntu-side I only have the 
 option to rely on community based support.

That's probably the case for many Linux OEM systems.
I once bought a desktop computer with Linspire pre-intsalled.
I cannot find a way to start X so I gave up soon and installed Ubuntu 10.04.
One guy asked a question about SUSE Enterprise Linux on his laptop the
other day in local LUG mailing list, no one has a clue since no one
used that distribution before.

Ubuntu is a little better since there is a community.

 Personally, it really saddens me because I've been a free software advocate 
 and have been using Ubuntu since 4.10.
 Now I think that some things are going into the wrong direction :
 - Amazon integrated into search

I hope you can discuss this issue somewhere else.

 - bad hardware support for certified systems, while manpower goes
into supporting Google Nexus  (!! what for if even normal laptops are
not supported well)

That annoys me also.
We are using, contributing, advocating Linux distributions but we have
no clue what kinds of laptop is fully supported, even those with
Ubuntu brand.
I'm not aware of a well maintained hardware knowledge base for Linux or Ubuntu.
There is no graphical hardware listing still, newbies still need to
understand what is terminal and what is lspci/lsusb/...
I tried to help solving a bug of hardware issue but I didn't get very
active response.

 - manpower used to develop multiple desktop environments (GNOME 3,
Unity, none of it being perfect), while I know much more severe desktop
bugs that might be worth looking into

This problem somehow belongs to Red Hat I believe.
They develop GNOME Shell that make many people unhappy.
I don't think Ubuntu's decision to shipping a different DE is a problem.
The problem is that Unity seems quite buggy.
I use and contribute MATE, a GNOME 2 fork, now.

 - little given back to upstream (i.e. for GTK, there is one person
full-time working on it, and hes not employed by Canonical)

That guy probably works for Red Hat?
I'm not a fan of GTK3.
http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/
For upstream contribution, I don't think Canonical actually developed
that many things different from upstream of GTK.
Are you a fan of Overlay scrolling? I'm not.

 - still (since 2006) no results in making third party software easier
to install and manage on all products of the Linux platform (see
https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/en/Packaging)

Use Ubuntu Software Center if a third-party developer focus on Ubuntu.
For distribution agnostic packaging, there is an interesting research work:
http://www.pgbovine.net/cde.html

 I'm not really requesting any help, because for sure there is a way to 
 somehow compile a newer mouse driver supporting my alps touchpad, to take a 
 newer kernel improving fan control and run it with tweaked power options (I 
 guess I'd somehow figure it out).
 But after installing Windows and having it almost running perfectly after 30 
 minutes (while I miss apt/yum package management), I have given up. Maybe I 
 will have a look at Ubuntu/Linux in 1 year again, and I would be really happy 
 if those things would be fixed, but I'm not that positive about it to be 
 honest.

I do dual-boot on my MacBook now.
You may consider this option too.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Ma Xiaojun]

On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 7:42 PM, pirast 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 As part of fixing this bug, you should make sure that Ubuntu certified
 computers shipping with Ubuntu pre-installed work as good as computers
 certified and shipped with Windows.

Agree.

 See: https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu-certification/+question/216889
 This is quite frustrating, I will never ever buy a Ubuntu certified system 
 anymore. What for?

I can understand your feeling.
However, if you ever buy crappy Windows certified system? Will you
give up Windows entirely.
Your problem belongs to the manufacturer, not the operating system.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Ma Xiaojun]

On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 8:36 PM, pirast 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 Well, Ubuntu/Canonical certified that Laptop, so that it gets a shiny Ubuntu 
 sticker and can be sold as Ubuntu certified.
 I would expect at least some person from Canonical/Ubuntu to look at it 
 before certifying it, so that there's an acceptable user experience available.

 I have bought many (10) Windows certified systems, and they all worked just 
 fine.
 It's the first time in my life that I bought a computer system that does not 
 do what I expect it to do (bad battery life, fan running all the time, 
 hardware/touchpad not working right - never had that before).

 That's a pretty poor out of the box experience, isn't it?

 And saying that the problem belongs to the manufacturer is not fair I think:
 See http://www.canonical.com/engineering-services/oem-services/oem-services: 
 Dell has at least booked the Standard package from there, which includes 
 Hardware enablement. Has Canonical made the hardware work, what it promises 
 there to do? No! Has Canonical provided any fixes upstream? No.


 The way it is I would not say that Ubuntu is a serious competitior to 
 Windows. Back to the drawing board.

Most of your points are pretty valid.
I've used Ubuntu since 5.10 but never bought Ubuntu certified computer.
Have you tried given support contact before using community channel
like this bug?
I'm familiar with Ubuntu community so I subscribe to this bug.
But if I'm a random customer I won't post my review here.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
An interesting mix of current stats and stories with along with projections 
that would make sense if people knew about those stats and made intelligent 
choices based on them!  


An extremely high percentage of the worlds supercomputers are already running 
Linux, the next highest percentage is Bsd and then other unix-based OSes 
account for the rest.  Also i heard that Android does already beat iPhone.  
Even if it doesn't iPhone is still a unix-based platform anyway so either way 
it's a win for us.  Windows is only 4th or 5th place on smart-phones and i 
think tablets and such too.  Employers still demand MS experience without 
realising that most of the time they aren't even using Windows themselves (it's 
only when they are at their  desk).  

Great video!  Thanks for cheering me up on this wet and windy Friday (and that 
is just inside the office)
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Graham ubu...@grahams.idps.co.uk wrote:
 You are basically saying it's better to stay with the devil you know.

I did not want to say, that I find it better to stay with the devil I
know - that's the behaviour of the users (regardless what the users
say, that's the behaviour I observe.


 I disagree because my experiences are not like yours.
 Firstly, I never recommend removing a users current installation and
 leaving them with something they are unfamiliar.

I always help them a lot in the beginning - I don't leave them alone.
However, of course, it is the unfamiliar thing in the beginning.


 I always set up machines to dual boot and leave them with the option to
 go back to their existing installation.
 This has a very high switchover rate, since they can compare one to the
 other and find the Linux installation is far more reliable and
 dependable.

I never do dual-boot installations - tried it a few times and it is
additional complexity added. However, maybe I should try your way of
offering the dual-boot.


 I talking about housewives, psychiatrists, clergymen, plumbers, care workers.
 These are the people I have deployed to and they do not look back.

I cannot say that I have such a wide-spread target audience. I think
there are two types of normal users: Those who are interested in
computers and do more than just email and web-surfing and those who
are not. The latter is usually no problem to migrate. - However, this
is always home users somehow where in general is less problematic. The
problems arise when you have people who are e.g. working as
freelancers and need to communicate a lot with other companies.


From your post, it seems you actually do not have any Linux experience to 
compare.

Oh I have several different experiences: I do manage the server at a
very small company (3-4 people) and I helped migrating users with less
and with more IT knowledge. - Far not so many as you - I think, but
enough to know the pitfalls, as I can look back also to a few failures
also (failure in the sense, that people did not continue to use Ubuntu
or still use it for particular tasks only).

I myself are facing the biggest hurdles as I am running my Ubuntu in a
Windows-only environment in the office where whole IT department is
fully Microsoft-conform.

Just to make it clear: I do not want to say, that Linux or Ubuntu is
failing. It's just that I am experiencing more issues during the last
months than before. So this is, why I don't even understand the
efforts put into discussions of shopping lenses and the like - such
things are worth discussing and implementing when everything else is
running fine.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Graham ubu...@grahams.idps.co.uk wrote:
 I deal with agencies, consultancies and clients and all through I have used 
 Linux machines to do my business.
 Very rarely I have a stubborn customer who insists you use some Microsoft 
 package.
 Once I go round the roundabout of complaining it doesn't work (but not 
 telling them why)
 they will allow you to provide a solution which works and move on.

Oh, maybe I shouldn't tell anybody that I am using Linux. This is
usually one of the first things I tell just to ensure the cause of the
(compatibility) problem can be found faster. - But you are right, I
should also pay back with a little ignorance.


 Again I have a strategy for this, which basically involves installing Ubuntu
 into virtualbox on whatever equipment they provide, then after a couple of 
 weeks setting
 up dual boot and continuing with that.

I never accept a job if they don't allow me to use Ubuntu. Usually
they do, but then I am facing hurdles. Nothing impossible to get over,
but leaving a lot of annoyances to remember or workarounds I need to
do on a daily basis. I play it the other way round: My base system is
Ubuntu and I have the Virtualbox-installation of Windows.


 I usually avoid telling the client I have set up dual boot since this starts 
 the FUD again, but they usually never ask.

Not sure if the next time I would prefer not to say it. Would be a
problem if they then use internal stuff that is an absolute no-go for
me. If I tell them first and have it as a precondition to even start
working there, I have more arguments that they need to at least
provide the minimum required environment to use Thunderbird for
example (e.g. activating the IMAP service at the Microsoft Exchange
server).

Best regards, Martin.

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[houstonbofh]

On 12/10/2012 03:35 AM, Martin Wildam wrote:

 Oh, maybe I shouldn't tell anybody that I am using Linux. This is
 usually one of the first things I tell just to ensure the cause of the
 (compatibility) problem can be found faster. - But you are right, I
 should also pay back with a little ignorance.

This is one of my frustrations with ATT.  When on the phone with support 
if I say the word Linux, they instantly respond Oh, we don't support 
Linux.  I reply, I do not need you to support Linux.  I can do that. 
I need you to support your DSL.

 I never accept a job if they don't allow me to use Ubuntu. Usually
 they do, but then I am facing hurdles. Nothing impossible to get over,
 but leaving a lot of annoyances to remember or workarounds I need to
 do on a daily basis. I play it the other way round: My base system is
 Ubuntu and I have the Virtualbox-installation of Windows.

I do not have any Windows on my laptop, nor any VM.  In the few places 
where a Windows desktop was required, they provided it as a VM.

Lee

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)

The problem with the MS Office formats us that they are not consistent
across different versions of MS Office itself.  The version they have
managed to get registered as an ISO standard is different again.  Even
worse is that MS's installer claims there will be inconsistences between
even the same version of MSO on their different OSes.  So a document
written in MSO 2010 on Win7 may well have problems when opened in MSO
2010 on Win Xp.


The places the blame on any user that doesn't upgrade to the latest version of 
their OS at the time when everyone else does and their latest version of MS 
Office when everyone else does.  When only a minority upgrade those people get 
a little flack from people for causing problems but their counter argument is 
that everyone else is being cheap and risking security problems.  Once critical 
mass is achieved everyone else is seen as being guilty if they haven't already 
upgraded and feels guilty themselves.  


So, when it's an MS program that fails to read an older version of the current 
MS format then it's the author that gets blamed.  When it's a non-MS program 
then it's IT Support or the program that gets blamed.  


The newest version of MS Office (called 365 this time) claims to have
proper support for OpenDocument Format 1.2.  MSO 2010 and 2007 only
supported ODF 1.0 which was quite a long way behind what all the other
Office Suites were using at the time.  So MS were able to claim they
supported ODF and try to blame all the other Suites for any problems.


The question is why don't people realise what is right in front of their eyes.  
Why aren't they worried about what is going to happen to their old documents.  
They seem to just accept and be happy with the fact that any documents they 
might need to access in a few years time, say around 5years, needs to be 
printed out because it wont be readable otherwise.  How is it that people are 
ok with that??  


Of course some organisations (such as the US Senate allegedly) decide to settle 
on a format based on MS's promises that they will always be able to read it and 
then find that MS has already started withdrawing support for it.  Again that 
somehow leads to non-MS programs being treated with suspicion.  


Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 1:15 AM, Faldegast 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 Guess what: He migrated back to Windows as he noticed a whole bunch of
 workarounds he needed to do.
 What about virtualbox + Windows + IE?

Yes, he could have done that - and tried it. But just think about any
hyperlink (be it a TIF, PDF etc then all opening in the virtualbox
where he then needs to have an application for everything there that
it can be opened. Basically he then needs to keep two systems
up-to-date). And that was just one of the annoyances - the IE-only
app.


 Not to tell about some TeamViewer glitches on Linux (extremely
 annoying when TeamViewer is one of the only remote-support tools that
 work on Linux and you either pay for it when using it for the daily
 job).
 There are also rdesktop for RDP. But yes we would need a lot more tools.

RDP is definitely no alternative to TeamViewer! - For RDP you need an
already established VPN connection (as neither the dummy Windows-Admin
is exposing RDP port directly to the internet). Only a few customers
give VPN to you so that you can connect whenever you want.


 That's why I install RHEL/CentOS on novice users. Its far from fancy, but 
 noone can blame EL for being unstable.

But those are a huge step back usually because they come with medieval
versions of several software (e.g. LibreOffice), isn't it?


 So - by now - status for me is:
 a) I finally (after a lot of extra analyses, bug reporting, testing
 etc) got - again - a very stable system with Ubuntu 12.04 + kernel
 3.5.0-18. And this although I use a Canonical-certified machine!
 Unfortunately with some manual udpates that now mean I don't get newer
 versions automatically through normal update channel. - However, at
 least I am ok.
 That's bad. Certified hardware should be supported, or the certification 
 becomes useless.

To be honest: I was deciding for the new laptop a few weeks after
12.04 release and my laptop was certified for 11.10 - and I am running
12.04 on it now. But it was the first certified hardware and I
couldn't think of experiencing more problems than ever before.


 That's why I stick to EL when I can. It has been rock solid for man years and 
 do not disappoint me.
 Of course with three different mayor versions (4, 5 and 6) supported in 
 parallel they can make sure
 that the two first are rock solid while keeping the latest a bit edgy.
 However I am sure that when they release EL 7 this will also apply to EL 6.

Apart from the enterprise versions comming around the corner with old
versions usually (I know also from Debian) I was switching from Fedora
to Ubuntu because Fedora is lacking hardware support. Interestingly
(although all distributions somehow use the common Linux kernel)
Ubuntu for me always showed the best hardware support.


 Ubuntu is a lot sexier, but on enterprise servers i prefer stable and 
 reliable.

It's not just about sexier. Although I initially did not like Unity,
know I got more effective and don't want to miss it anymore. IMHO
times of classic task bars are over and I didn't manage to get Cairo
dock or AWN to the stability and comfort of Unity - even after many
hours of playing around with the settings.


 This is the mayor issue today. The popularity of Firefox and Chrome did
 a lot for Linux in defeating IE.

Yes, indeed - I agree. Without breaking the monopoly of IE situation
for Linux-users would be far worse!


 Java may be further ahead because OpenJFX and possible OpenGL
 support in the Java standard. However the development process are not
 very transparent.

Fortunately I see a few business applications are using Java even for
there desktop client (on server side a lot is Java, but on the desktop
many stick to Windows-only .net clients). Java is IMHO ahead even for
GUI development - just try to get a .net GUI to adapt it's widget
sizes to different languages for example, which in Java is no problem
since years, I couldn't get this feature working on .net neither using
Winforms nor using WPF. Microsoft is causing a lot of migration work
to developers and I got more and more angry upon Microsoft. After many
years of Windows-only-Development, when switching to Java (and I only
switched my focus to Java a few years ago) I started to enjoy
programming again.


 Also office documents continue to be a problem. Documents from open
 /libre-office do not work well with Microsoft Office and vice versa.
 This is the far worst problem. One solution would be to have a
 OpenOffice-comatible import filter for Microsoft Office. However we also
 be able to open Office documents properly.

This is the wrong way IMHO. OO and LO work fine on Windows. People on
Windows even should use that. :-)


 One of my brightest ideas here are to make a linux emulation layer for
 Windows. Similar to what Wine is to Linux.

This could be helpful, but again an addional huge extra piece that
will suffer from the same incompatibilities as Wine does. My
experience with wine is that a) only a 

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Achilles12]

I agree with Graham. Dual booting is very practical  usable solution. The fall 
back option to Windows helps sometimes. 
Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone

-Original Message-
From: Graham ubu...@grahams.idps.co.uk
Sender: boun...@canonical.com
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 07:03:01 
To: cvg1.cool@gmail.com
Reply-To: Bug 1 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
Subject: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

Martin,

You are basically saying it's better to stay with the devil you know.

I disagree because my experiences are not like yours.

Firstly, I never recommend removing a users current installation and
leaving them with something they are unfamiliar.

I always set up machines to dual boot and leave them with the option to
go back to their existing installation.

This has a very high switchover rate, since they can compare one to the
other and find the Linux installation is far more reliable and
dependable.

I talking about housewives, psychiatrists, clergymen, plumbers, care workers.
These are the people I have deployed to and they do not look back.

From your post, it seems you actually do not have any Linux experience
to compare.

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

Status in Club Distro:
  Confirmed
Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
  Confirmed
Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
  New
Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
  Invalid
Status in dylan.NET:
  Invalid
Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
  Invalid
Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
  Invalid
Status in JAK LINUX:
  Invalid
Status in LibreOffice:
  In Progress
Status in The Linux Kernel:
  New
Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
  In Progress
Status in The Linux OS Project:
  In Progress
Status in The Metacity Window Manager:
  In Progress
Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
  In Progress
Status in Tabuntu:
  Invalid
Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
  Invalid
Status in Tv-Player:
  Invalid
Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
  In Progress
Status in Ubuntu:
  In Progress
Status in Arch Linux:
  Confirmed
Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
  Invalid
Status in “linux” package in Debian:
  In Progress
Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
  Confirmed
Status in openSUSE:
  In Progress
Status in Tilix Linux:
  New

Bug description:
  Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC
  marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant
  to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, Our work is
  driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to
  all.

  Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software gives 
everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with whoever they 
like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the spectrum it enables the 
Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective experience and expertise to 
continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the other, we are able to give access 
to essential software for those who couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage 
that’s keenly felt by individuals and organisations all over the world.
   * http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy

  Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and
  concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into
  the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles
  innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious
  anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic
  practices.

  This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.

  Steps to repeat:

  1. Visit a local PC store.
  2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.

  What happens:

  Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-
  installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating
  system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be
  proprietary.

  What should happen:

  A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.

   * http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
   * http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
   * http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd

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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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RE: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

 Guess what: He migrated back to Windows as he noticed a whole bunch of
 workarounds he needed to do. It started with the fact that he as a
 support-guy needs to use a IE-only trouble ticket system. Attempts
 with IE under Wine/Playonlinux) failed because of stability issues.

What about virtualbox + Windows + IE?

 Not to tell about some TeamViewer glitches on Linux (extremely
 annoying when TeamViewer is one of the only remote-support tools that
 work on Linux and you either pay for it when using it for the daily
 job).
There are also rdesktop for RDP. But yes we would need a lot more tools.
 
 Apart from that I had a few issues on my workstation myself that have
 nothing to do with the Windows environment, I have to cope with: I had
 lock-up and reboot issues after switching to 12.04 (several different
 reasons - see https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/993187 just for
 example). So far everything solved with tweaking, manual updates and
 hand-work. Most annoying: The current kernel status is not stable (not
 only for me) and so I currently use 12.04 with the manually installed
 3.5.0-18 kernel. But this means, I need to manually upgrade to newer
 versions with security updates. :-( - Stuff I cannot put onto the
 shoulders of the normal user. - BTW: Most major distros these days
 have problems - be it stability issues with changing desktop
 environments or early-adopter style run to newer technologies when
 finally older ones got stable enough (nearly every month I read about
 some planned change - I already worry about what will be after change
 to wayland...). Compiz is also such a thing - finally quite stable
 (for me personally since about september or october) I hear that they
 want to throw it out for the sake of something else.
That's why I install RHEL/CentOS on novice users. Its far from fancy, but noone 
can blame EL for being unstable.

 So - by now - status for me is:
 a) I finally (after a lot of extra analyses, bug reporting, testing
 etc) got - again - a very stable system with Ubuntu 12.04 + kernel
 3.5.0-18. And this although I use a Canonical-certified machine!
 Unfortunately with some manual udpates that now mean I don't get newer
 versions automatically through normal update channel. - However, at
 least I am ok.
That's bad. Certified hardware should be supported, or the certification 
becomes useless.

 b) I currently do not try to convince other people to Linux/Ubuntu
 because they will blame me if some windows-only crappy thing does not
 work or some shitty windows-only file format is sent to them and they
 can't cope with it. If somebody really wants to have Linux, I will
 help of course, but so far I am quite fine by telling people, that I
 don't fix their Windows machines. Lost some friends - but only those
 I don't care about after noticing the reason why they keep their
 contact with me.
Whoever gave you the idea of don't fixing their Windows machines? :)
Some actually stick to Linux because I and others do not support Windows. They 
bitch about it, but they are free to do as they please.

 But - to fix Bug 1 from current point of view:
 1. Things must work out-of-the-box again (we had this status already
 but IMHO currently somehow lost) and Ubuntu must be rock-solid and
 stable again. My current experience in comparison with Windows 2008r2
 over the last months is: Far more lock-ups/freezes and accidential
 reboots than on Windows Servers I need to work on. Far more RDP
 connection drops (remmina still crashing at least once a day on my
 machine).
That's why I stick to EL when I can. It has been rock solid for man years and 
do not disappoint me. Of course with three different mayor versions (4, 5 and 
6) supported in parallel they can make sure that the two first are rock solid 
while keeping the latest a bit edgy. However I am sure that when they release 
EL 7 this will also apply to EL 6.

Ubuntu is a lot sexier, but on enterprise servers i prefer stable and
reliable.

 2. Before doing marketing for Linux/Ubuntu, marketing for open
 standards is required - I mean open protocols and open file formats
 that can be handled on all platforms. In the ideal world it should be
 irrelevant which OS you are using. To real success of Linux/Ubuntu
 there need to be less barriers.

This is the mayor issue today. The popularity of Firefox and Chrome did
a lot for Linux in defeating IE. However some artifacts like Flash (not
lightspark but the adobe version) and proprietary office packages have
to be defeated as well. Html+JavaScript and Java are on the racetrack
here. However web standards (and their implementation) are not up to the
task yet. Java may be further ahead because OpenJFX and possible OpenGL
support in the Java standard. However the development process are not
very transparent.

Also office documents continue to be a problem. Documents from open
/libre-office do not work well with Microsoft Office and vice versa.
This is the far worst problem. One solution would be to have a

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

@John: I am a big advocate of Linux and agree with you that many
simply do not know any alternative.

I personally do run - against all odds - my Workstation on Ubuntu in a
nearly Windows-only company. Nobody, neither in IT nor in management
is ever considering Linux (and Mac). And I had a similar situation at
another company last year. In both cases there are product decisions
done that make it very hard for me as a Linux user (ranging from
IE-only web-apps - yes, still done in Microsoft-brainwashed
environments - to other windows-only apps). None of the internal
installation and setup documentations do ever contain information for
Linux users.

Similar situation when it comes to VPN clients used at different
clients. Only with a lot of begging they try to get me a Linux client
(if available).

I got a new co-worker in august and got him to install Ubuntu after
some driver-troubles when installing Windows on his company laptop.
Guess what: He migrated back to Windows as he noticed a whole bunch of
workarounds he needed to do. It started with the fact that he as a
support-guy needs to use a IE-only trouble ticket system. Attempts
with IE under Wine/Playonlinux) failed because of stability issues.

Not to tell about some TeamViewer glitches on Linux (extremely
annoying when TeamViewer is one of the only remote-support tools that
work on Linux and you either pay for it when using it for the daily
job).

Apart from that I had a few issues on my workstation myself that have
nothing to do with the Windows environment, I have to cope with: I had
lock-up and reboot issues after switching to 12.04 (several different
reasons - see https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/993187 just for
example). So far everything solved with tweaking, manual updates and
hand-work. Most annoying: The current kernel status is not stable (not
only for me) and so I currently use 12.04 with the manually installed
3.5.0-18 kernel. But this means, I need to manually upgrade to newer
versions with security updates. :-( - Stuff I cannot put onto the
shoulders of the normal user. - BTW: Most major distros these days
have problems - be it stability issues with changing desktop
environments or early-adopter style run to newer technologies when
finally older ones got stable enough (nearly every month I read about
some planned change - I already worry about what will be after change
to wayland...). Compiz is also such a thing - finally quite stable
(for me personally since about september or october) I hear that they
want to throw it out for the sake of something else.

So - by now - status for me is:
a) I finally (after a lot of extra analyses, bug reporting, testing
etc) got - again - a very stable system with Ubuntu 12.04 + kernel
3.5.0-18. And this although I use a Canonical-certified machine!
Unfortunately with some manual udpates that now mean I don't get newer
versions automatically through normal update channel. - However, at
least I am ok.

b) I currently do not try to convince other people to Linux/Ubuntu
because they will blame me if some windows-only crappy thing does not
work or some shitty windows-only file format is sent to them and they
can't cope with it. If somebody really wants to have Linux, I will
help of course, but so far I am quite fine by telling people, that I
don't fix their Windows machines. Lost some friends - but only those
I don't care about after noticing the reason why they keep their
contact with me.

But - to fix Bug 1 from current point of view:
1. Things must work out-of-the-box again (we had this status already
but IMHO currently somehow lost) and Ubuntu must be rock-solid and
stable again. My current experience in comparison with Windows 2008r2
over the last months is: Far more lock-ups/freezes and accidential
reboots than on Windows Servers I need to work on. Far more RDP
connection drops (remmina still crashing at least once a day on my
machine).

2. Before doing marketing for Linux/Ubuntu, marketing for open
standards is required - I mean open protocols and open file formats
that can be handled on all platforms. In the ideal world it should be
irrelevant which OS you are using. To real success of Linux/Ubuntu
there need to be less barriers.

Regards, Martin.

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
MS never had a majority market-share in computing as a whole.  Most people only 
notice what happens on the one machine sitting on their desk.  They assume the 
entire rest of the world must be using exactly the same thing that keeps 
crashing on their machine, from massive supercomputers to tiny phones and up to 
the space station, Mars and beyond and the ocean floor and upwards.  


However, none of that has ever really been run on Windows, or at least not for 
long.  Most have been using Unix-based operating systems.  However most office 
and home users have only been aware of using Windows on their own personal 
machines.  


Now that people are exploring other types of machines and moving away from just 
personal desktops they find themselves increasingly moving away from Windows.  

Regards from

Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Ma Xiaojun damage3...@gmail.com wrote:
 I wonder how much we should care about mobile market.

Apart from phone-calling the mobile market (tablets and smartphones)
is mostly for consuming (web surfing, news-reading, video, ...).

A real computer (laptop, desktop or at least netbook) is needed for
production work (design, book-writing, software-development, CAD,
image-editing and -processing, desktop-publishing, ...).

Both types of work (consumption such as news reading can be a needed
part of work for several jobs) are required and must be considered in
general. This does not necessarily mean that both worlds must be
considered in bug 1.


 We really need certain share in desktop market.

Although some say the PC era is over - I don't share this opinion.
Maybe the desktop-era is over, but certainly not the laptop-era. So I
agree that desktop market is still a needed focus.


 Even in mobile market, Google's Linux based Android is successful. Other 
 Linux based system virtually all failed.

Indeed, agree.


 It's a pleasure for me and probably other life hackers to see Ubuntu runs 
 on Nexus 7.
 But this kind of stuff won't change the market landscape in any way.

Not sure, from all attempts to have one OS for desktop and mobile I
think, Ubuntu is doing the best job here - OS looks more the same on
both platforms (mobile and desktop) which helps all people having
troubles using technical stuff - or docking your smart phone into a
docking station with big screen, mouse and keyboard and have your
working desktop there looks nice. However, there are a few
implications with this scenario:
a) Have a fitting docking station wherever you go. - Requires a
certain market share until this can be expected.
Otherwise no gain as you would need to carry your own docking station around.
b) Having enough power and battery life in your smart phone.
Otherwise laptop or netbook makes a lot more sense.
c) People want using their computer on many different places.
Otherwise they are still perfectly fine with their desktop PC. There
are people using the computer mainly at work or mainly at home and
while on the road just checking email or doing minimum internet
surfing (for which the smart phone is enough). IT people often apply
their thoughts of computer use to others which is often not a valid
assumption.

So, to make a long story short, yes, desktop market should still be a
major focus and the mobile market should probably be handled on a
different bug. BTW: Bug 2 seems to be still not set yet and could be
used for that. ;-)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
The desktop is not dead.  It's resting.  
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Warren Hill 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 I think we need to work with schools. When a kid comes home from school
 saying I need a computer for school then the parents naturally go out
 and buy something that does the same as the school computer.

I already heard about a school telling parents that they need to buy a
Windows-PC because of several Windows-material, they use.

Never, ever would I buy a Windows-PC for my kids. Apart from that that
they will never see anything else but Ubuntu until they get into
school.

Unfortunately they same ignorance I see in professional IT companies
and software development companies. I have talked to a customer a few
weeks ago who doesn't have a Windows AD-Domain and doesn't want to
have Windows servers at all, but he told me that he has to use them
because certain software is running only on Windows servers but they
need that software...

So certainly there would be demand but it does not really work with
the supply. That's because people accept the Windows where the
alternatives lack of functionality and where the vendors stick with
their ignorance. Vendors can only ignore Linux where the alternatives
lack and where the the critical mass hasn't yet switched to
Linux/Ubuntu. Only then they would loose a big amount business without
providing platform independent (or pure Linux) solutions.

Best regards, Martin.

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Shaun Husain]

Ah sorry to spam after an already long e-mail but one other group I left
out that I wanted in the list
Gamers, but I believe this will only follow consumer demands like the
hardware vendors, since only when there's an audience will a game
development company put money into it.

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Shaun Husain
shaun.hus...@gmail.comwrote:

 I believe the major issue is lack of consumer software available in the
 Linux community.  I'm not saying that I don't find tons of open source
 projects and some of high quality, but there's nothing to compete with the
 top of the line proprietary graphics and audio software available on
 Windows and Mac.  For a developer Linux makes the most sense, it's
 lightweight and therefore fast and can run Eclipse and other full on IDEs
 and generally there's a compiler available for every language and to target
 many systems (VMs or Processors).  So for a dev like myself it makes
 perfect sense, however for someone I work with who strictly does creative
 work, ever having to deal with the command line is probably too much to
 ask.  They have lots of work to do and if the software available doesn't
 make their work as fast as it can be on a Windows or Mac OS machine then it
 just can't sell.  Believe me I'm all for Linux and FOSS and Ubuntu, but I
 think for it to really happen the open source community needs to step up
 the game with regard to media editing/creation software (ffmpeg is great
 but explain it to a video editor, granted the video editing GUIs for Ubuntu
 I've found are very fast, but just lack advanced features).

 As it stands today I think we have the following large groups of computer
 users:
 Developers | Love Linux, works great for them, all the tools you need
 nothing you don't, fast, easy customization.
 System Admins | Love Linux, works great for them, cheap solution good
 performance good security history can run J2EE and other enterprise scale
 application servers/containers.
 General Public (mom  pop) | Are frightened of change, have been fed the
 Windows bread all their professional lives.  Linux can work for them and
 well but they need some help to get started (e-mail, web-browsing all
 great, UI is easy enough for these tasks, it's fast did I mention that).
 Media/Content Creators | Tools are not up to par cannot really use Linux
 on a Day to Day basis simply because the tools are not refined or in-depth
 enough to match their Windows/Mac OS counter-parts.

 If a corporation like the one I work for was offered the opportunity to
 have all of their employees work without licensing costs for OS upgrades
 and knowing everyone is getting the best bang for their buck out of their
 hardware, and would be supporting just 1 open source OS, I don't think
 anyone would be complaining and this bug would dissolve quickly.  I believe
 LibreOffice/OpenOffice are good alternatives to MS Office and the e-mail
 clients are fine, I think another major area that needs to be addressed by
 the open source community is Exchange server.  GMail has made some strides
 in providing a replacement but it's not 100% in terms of group contact
 management and other features that Exchange offers for businesses.  So I
 say we create the following and get this bug closed.

 Replacement for the following:

 Final Cut/Premiere
 Pro Tools
 Exchange/Outlook
 Photoshop
 Illustrator

 Here's the list I can come up with of possible replacements in Ubuntu, but
 none seem totally up to par:

 Video editing
 http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/top5-linux-video-editing-system-software/ (I've
 used KDen live not the others here, it was as I said above fast but not
 feature full)
 Audio editing Rezound or Audacity, Rezound seems to be dead with regard to
 development, Audacity is okay but again not great UX/UI interactions and
 not a ton of features.
 In terms of Mail servers I believe they're just missing the calendar side
 of exchange, and contact management/integration in Active Directory, though
 perhaps there's an alternative for that I'm unaware of
 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MailServer I've also heard good things
 about Citadel and Zimbra and had a brief stint playing with Zimbra but got
 caught up in other work, some others talking about it here:
 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1231456
 Photo Editing: GIMP, decent but hard learning curve, kind of slow to start
 up and generally work-flow in PhotoShop seems to be smoother, although this
 coming from someone who has used PhotoShop far more.
 SVG editor: Inkscape, haven't used this one honestly just assuming from
 what I've heard from those who have that it's not as easy to use as
 Illustrator (granted the Adobe suite has been refined by paid engineers for
 some time and is still a resource hog)

 I think hardware vendors will support Linux more once consumers demand it,
 and not before.

 So yah currently that's my two cents.  Please respond and tell me how
 wrong I am and point me towards all the bad ass software 

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Shaun Husain]

I believe the major issue is lack of consumer software available in the
Linux community.  I'm not saying that I don't find tons of open source
projects and some of high quality, but there's nothing to compete with the
top of the line proprietary graphics and audio software available on
Windows and Mac.  For a developer Linux makes the most sense, it's
lightweight and therefore fast and can run Eclipse and other full on IDEs
and generally there's a compiler available for every language and to target
many systems (VMs or Processors).  So for a dev like myself it makes
perfect sense, however for someone I work with who strictly does creative
work, ever having to deal with the command line is probably too much to
ask.  They have lots of work to do and if the software available doesn't
make their work as fast as it can be on a Windows or Mac OS machine then it
just can't sell.  Believe me I'm all for Linux and FOSS and Ubuntu, but I
think for it to really happen the open source community needs to step up
the game with regard to media editing/creation software (ffmpeg is great
but explain it to a video editor, granted the video editing GUIs for Ubuntu
I've found are very fast, but just lack advanced features).

As it stands today I think we have the following large groups of computer
users:
Developers | Love Linux, works great for them, all the tools you need
nothing you don't, fast, easy customization.
System Admins | Love Linux, works great for them, cheap solution good
performance good security history can run J2EE and other enterprise scale
application servers/containers.
General Public (mom  pop) | Are frightened of change, have been fed the
Windows bread all their professional lives.  Linux can work for them and
well but they need some help to get started (e-mail, web-browsing all
great, UI is easy enough for these tasks, it's fast did I mention that).
Media/Content Creators | Tools are not up to par cannot really use Linux on
a Day to Day basis simply because the tools are not refined or in-depth
enough to match their Windows/Mac OS counter-parts.

If a corporation like the one I work for was offered the opportunity to
have all of their employees work without licensing costs for OS upgrades
and knowing everyone is getting the best bang for their buck out of their
hardware, and would be supporting just 1 open source OS, I don't think
anyone would be complaining and this bug would dissolve quickly.  I believe
LibreOffice/OpenOffice are good alternatives to MS Office and the e-mail
clients are fine, I think another major area that needs to be addressed by
the open source community is Exchange server.  GMail has made some strides
in providing a replacement but it's not 100% in terms of group contact
management and other features that Exchange offers for businesses.  So I
say we create the following and get this bug closed.

Replacement for the following:

Final Cut/Premiere
Pro Tools
Exchange/Outlook
Photoshop
Illustrator

Here's the list I can come up with of possible replacements in Ubuntu, but
none seem totally up to par:

Video editing
http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/top5-linux-video-editing-system-software/ (I've
used KDen live not the others here, it was as I said above fast but not
feature full)
Audio editing Rezound or Audacity, Rezound seems to be dead with regard to
development, Audacity is okay but again not great UX/UI interactions and
not a ton of features.
In terms of Mail servers I believe they're just missing the calendar side
of exchange, and contact management/integration in Active Directory, though
perhaps there's an alternative for that I'm unaware of
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MailServer I've also heard good things
about Citadel and Zimbra and had a brief stint playing with Zimbra but got
caught up in other work, some others talking about it here:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1231456
Photo Editing: GIMP, decent but hard learning curve, kind of slow to start
up and generally work-flow in PhotoShop seems to be smoother, although this
coming from someone who has used PhotoShop far more.
SVG editor: Inkscape, haven't used this one honestly just assuming from
what I've heard from those who have that it's not as easy to use as
Illustrator (granted the Adobe suite has been refined by paid engineers for
some time and is still a resource hog)

I think hardware vendors will support Linux more once consumers demand it,
and not before.

So yah currently that's my two cents.  Please respond and tell me how wrong
I am and point me towards all the bad ass software I'm missing out on :).


Thanks for reading if you got through that,
-Shaun

PS I would love a Lenovo with Ubuntu pre-installed (and no Windows OEM fee
to boot).

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 5:32 AM, MDV 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:

 In Australia there is a bug in the education system where the only OS
 they seem to use is Windows XP or 7. At a Tafe open day I asked if their
 network supported Ubuntu, the guy pauses and says 

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
That would be great, even if they replaced LibreOffice with their flavour of 
Apache's OpenOffice.  LO and AOO are not really competing with each other so 
much as they are co-operatively competing with the rather larger rival.  

It would be great to see IBM taking on MS.  They might even be large enough to 
get soemwhere especially if other OEMs follow their lead a bit.  
Regards from
Tom :)

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[houstonbofh]

On 05/23/2012 09:30 AM, Hein wrote:
 ... Need a scanner: no problem for Windows or OSX: just look
 for the respective logos on the box in the shops. Linux: search for
 supported devices, read what features are or are not supported, and try
 to get this (mostly outdated) model.

I have actually had the totally opposite result.  I plug in any Cannon 
Lide scanner and it just works.  Any HP stand alone scanner, and it just 
works.  On Windows 7, I needed to buy software for the HP scanners, and 
could not get some of the Cannon scanners to work.  Only found one 
scanner that would not work with Linux, a Microtik, and it was total 
junk.  It was replaced on Windows with an HP and a paid driver...

And if you buy hardware with no research, whatever the OS, you have a 
good chance of getting disappointing junk.

(By the way...  How does a scanner get outdated?  I mean, aren't the 
features mostly set now?)

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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RE: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

Scanners gets outdated by using older proprietary protocols that are not in 
wider circulation.
Check for a FOSS Linux driver BEFORE you buy a printer or scanner. If there are 
a high quality FOSS driver now, there will be decades from now...

 Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 15:57:56 +
 From: 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
 To: faldeg...@hotmail.com
 Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share
 
 On 05/23/2012 09:30 AM, Hein wrote:
  ... Need a scanner: no problem for Windows or OSX: just look
  for the respective logos on the box in the shops. Linux: search for
  supported devices, read what features are or are not supported, and try
  to get this (mostly outdated) model.
 
 I have actually had the totally opposite result.  I plug in any Cannon 
 Lide scanner and it just works.  Any HP stand alone scanner, and it just 
 works.  On Windows 7, I needed to buy software for the HP scanners, and 
 could not get some of the Cannon scanners to work.  Only found one 
 scanner that would not work with Linux, a Microtik, and it was total 
 junk.  It was replaced on Windows with an HP and a paid driver...
 
 And if you buy hardware with no research, whatever the OS, you have a 
 good chance of getting disappointing junk.
 
 (By the way...  How does a scanner get outdated?  I mean, aren't the 
 features mostly set now?)
 
 -- 
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 report.
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 Title:
   Microsoft has a majority market share
 
 Status in Club Distro:
   Confirmed
 Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
   Confirmed
 Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
   New
 Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
   Invalid
 Status in dylan.NET:
   Invalid
 Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
   Invalid
 Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
   Invalid
 Status in JAK LINUX:
   Invalid
 Status in LibreOffice:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux Kernel:
   New
 Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux OS Project:
   In Progress
 Status in The Metacity Window Manager:
   In Progress
 Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
   In Progress
 Status in Tabuntu:
   Invalid
 Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
   Invalid
 Status in Tv-Player:
   Invalid
 Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project:
   In Progress
 Status in Ubuntu:
   In Progress
 Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu:
   In Progress
 Status in The Jaunty Jackalope:
   Invalid
 Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty:
   Invalid
 Status in Arch Linux:
   Confirmed
 Status in Baltix GNU/Linux:
   Invalid
 Status in “linux” package in Debian:
   In Progress
 Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS:
   Confirmed
 Status in openSUSE:
   In Progress
 Status in Tilix Linux:
   New
 
 Bug description:
   Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
   This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
 
   Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
   restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
   limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full
   potential, globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
 
   Steps to repeat:
 
   1. Visit a local PC store.
 
   What happens:
   2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software 
 pre-installed.
   3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
 
   What should happen:
   1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like 
 Ubuntu.
   2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and 
 benefits would be apparent and known by all.
   3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
 
 To manage notifications about this bug go to:
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscriptions

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Title:
  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 12:24 AM, Faldegast 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:
 Check for a FOSS Linux driver BEFORE you buy a printer or scanner. If there 
 are a high quality FOSS driver now, there will be decades from now...

Indeed - I always check the OS support of the hardware before buying.
But instead of searching a lot, for example when buying a laptop, I
tell my vendor, that the thingy must be fully Linux compatible
otherwise they get it thrown back. Worked so far.

So the hardware support is IMHO not the problem. For the unsupported
hardware it is the non-thinking of it when buying the stuff.

Much more of a problem is it, when I anyway face annoying bugs, e.g.
docking station support in Ubuntu 10.04 (it took my hours to sort out
the issue and find a workaround). Currently in 12.04 that seems to be
solved (Juhu!), but on the other hand I have problems starting
applications written in Mono for example - Unity launcher simply
doesn't get it. Because you were talking of printers: There was
somebody in my neighbourhood to whom I gave Ubuntu and using
SimpleScan there was an annoying bug that caused scans
(Printer+Scanner) to be scanned with the wrong paper format all the
time (although manually configured correctly). - These are the real
annoyances in my opinion, because they take me 80 % of installation
and configuration time and that reminds me too much to Windows.

Best regards, Martin.

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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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RE: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

Thats the thing i like about CentOS/EL... It is very stable and reliable. Also 
it is quite boring and does not ship with for example wine or azureus. However 
Neither does XP which is still quite popular... naturally we want to avoid a 
situation where we do not have centralized package management... but that does 
not mean that everything has to be distro-based. Take rpmfusion and atrpms for 
example. They both are multi-distro and multi-version.

Perhaps some of the packages in Ubuntu should not belong to Ubuntu but
in a repository that is shared between debian-based distributions.

Possibly a build system could be used to make a common repository with
both yum and apt repositories and QA teams for the mayor distributions.
This would allow the distributions to focus more on distribution-
specific task and less on building firefox and azureus

As far as I am concerned 12.04 ks far to edgy and unpolished. 10.04 will
be my choice for Ubuntu LTS edition until (and if) 12.04 matures. For
servers I will stick to CentOS/EL because of the unbeatable support
cycle, I can only get better support cycles if turning to Solaris or
other non-FOSS software.

I think that for most users Linux are only suitable for the server side.
They need reliable tools and not edgy and buggy things with the highest
possible version number. Ubuntu 12.04 has not even passed alpha
(appliance test) yet in my world, and 10.04 has to much outdated
software. This is also true for the Red Hat camp... Fedora is to
unstable and CentOS is to stable and conservative for desktops.

A repository that brings loads of fresh apps in the desktop category
like firefox azureus and pidgin to conservative dists like 10.04 would
and CentOS would be what these users need. Some of us wanna play with
the latest kernel, btrfs and KVM features that makes Fedora/latest
Ubuntu the best choice, but Duncan Defaultuser would want something
right between a stable LTS/CentOS and our edgy dists... and no such
option do exist unless they build packages themselves or install
software in highly unrecommended ways.

The closest thing we have is CentOS + Extra Packages for Enterprise
Linux (EPEL) which is Fedora packages ported to CentOS/EL that is not
supported by Red Het. However EPEL is seriously outdated and under
staffed. This may have something to do with the part where it only
supports CentOS/EL...

I started working on a wider repository but got stuck on porting Fedoras
azureus to CentOS because it depends on maven3 which have circular
dependencies and my knowledge of packaging was not enough to solve
that... I gave up after about a week... In truth maven3 packaging belong
to the jpackage project, but they seem to be as understaffed as the EPEL
project. I did however have some minor Fedora Raẃhide packages building
on Fedora 15 and 16 plus CentOS 5 and 6 on the SUSE build farm from
common source packages. SUSE do not support debian distributions so I
never tried compiling for those.

 Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 09:30:29 +
 From: 1...@bugs.launchpad.net
 To: faldeg...@hotmail.com
 Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share
 
 Hi,
 
 while setting up my production 12.04 machine I stumbled upon a few
 issues, e.g. bug #768931 - no custom icon on launcher displayed for
 mono winforms and ogre apps.
 
 This bug also crashes/closes the complete unity interface when the
 user does the wrong click. And the Bug is there since 11.04 as far as
 I could see.
 
 I went crazy using Windows, but there are some categories of
 annoyances you would never experience on Windows - as the bug above.
 What image do I get with Ubuntu in front of newly converted Duncan
 Defaultuser telling him, that unfortunately not all applications are
 displayed well on your taskbar. I mean, this is a core desktop feature
 that should work in the same reliable way as the underying core OS.
 Such issues (and there are a few) feed the image of Linux being only
 suitable for the server side. :-(
 
 Best regards, Martin.
 
 -- 
 You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
 report.
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 Title:
   Microsoft has a majority market share
 
 Status in Club Distro:
   Confirmed
 Status in Computer Science Ubuntu:
   Confirmed
 Status in LibreOffice Productivity Suite:
   New
 Status in dylan.NET.Reflection:
   Invalid
 Status in dylan.NET:
   Invalid
 Status in EasyPeasy Overview:
   Invalid
 Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians:
   Invalid
 Status in JAK LINUX:
   Invalid
 Status in LibreOffice:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux Kernel:
   New
 Status in The Linux Mint Distribution:
   In Progress
 Status in The Linux OS Project:
   In Progress
 Status in The Metacity Window Manager:
   In Progress
 Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite:
   In Progress
 Status in Tabuntu:
   Invalid
 Status in A simple player to online TV streaming:
   Invalid
 Status in Tv-Player:
   Invalid
 Status in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team Meta Project

Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Hi,

while setting up my production 12.04 machine I stumbled upon a few
issues, e.g. bug #768931 - no custom icon on launcher displayed for
mono winforms and ogre apps.

This bug also crashes/closes the complete unity interface when the
user does the wrong click. And the Bug is there since 11.04 as far as
I could see.

I went crazy using Windows, but there are some categories of
annoyances you would never experience on Windows - as the bug above.
What image do I get with Ubuntu in front of newly converted Duncan
Defaultuser telling him, that unfortunately not all applications are
displayed well on your taskbar. I mean, this is a core desktop feature
that should work in the same reliable way as the underying core OS.
Such issues (and there are a few) feed the image of Linux being only
suitable for the server side. :-(

Best regards, Martin.

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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
+1
Continuing to support 10.04 would be great.  MS seem to have finally stopped 
supporting Xp except under unusual conditions but it's true they kept adding a 
few more years on.  Unity has grown fast into a very usable interface.  I 
thought it would take a couple more years to get this far.  The 10.04 still has 
1 year support left but it would be great to see another year or so added to 
that.  On machines that i have 12.04 i still favour the classic DE but i miss 
some of the things i could do with 10.04 even tho some of those things probably 
do have equivalents i haven't yet learned in Unity.  
Regards from
Tom :)

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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
A fresh install is always better than upgrading.  Also the more steps you take 
the less likely to be satisfactory.  It's usually possible to upgrade from 1 
LTS to the next LTS without upgrading to all the intermediarry 6monthlies.  

There is a neat trick for installing any version over any other version
(so you can even go backwards too! 12.04 to 10.04 or whatever).

Step 1 is to use a LiveCd session or similar but when you get to the
partitioning section choose Manual or Advanced or Something else
depending on which version of Ubuntu you are installing.  It's always
the bottom option.  It rescans your drives and lets you choose which
partition to use as what.  The trick is the crucial part here.  DO NOT
let it format any partition except for the Swap.  So, make sure there
are NO ticks in the Format? column.

Step 2 = after the install is complete.  Work out which programs you had
installed (or at least those you want) that are not currently installed.
A quick look in /home/username at all the .somethings (eg .libreoffice
or .config/libreoffice indicates that you have LibreOffice).  There are
some sub-folders such as .gconf and .mozilla but you only need a hasty
skim through, and compare with whatever is (or rather is not) in the
menus.

It's unclear what people mean by broken or unstable unless you know
the person.  One chap (granted he was an office worker) told me his
machine was completely dead and spent about a week ranting about how
bad it all was and how useless tech support was he finally let me onto
his machine and i solved it in 3 clicks.

So, if you say something is broken or unstable then it's better to give a hint 
as to what sort of things are going wrong.  Otherwise many techies just assume 
you're an idiot and the instability is user-error because that's what it so 
often turns out to be.  
Regards from
Tom )

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[houstonbofh]

On 04/30/2012 04:52 AM, Tom wrote:
 Hi :)
 A fresh install is always better than upgrading.

For whom?  Not the non-technical user...

Lee

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Re: [Bug 1] Re: Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)
Both.  But the more important thing is their reasoning.  I might not take the 
1st choice of either because our requirements might be completely different or 
their reasons seem contrary to what i'm looking for (ie neither expensive 
racers nor mountain bikes are ideal for riding around a fairly flat town to get 
into work in the morning but might be great on holiday or if the morning run is 
longer or hillier).  

The neighbour might be more useful if he/she let me test-drive.  The 
acknowledged expert might not have time to share any wisdom.
Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Sun, 15/4/12, houstonbofh 1...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote:

On 04/15/2012 04:18 PM, Tom wrote:
 Hi :)
 I would rather have a bike.  Smaller carbon footprint :)

So who would you ask, the guy next door or a bike messenger?

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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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