Re: Gthumb as default image viewer?
Lainaus Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com: On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Otto Kekäläinen o...@sange.fi wrote: From my experiences I'd say that importing digital images to your computer and managing them is as common as using e-mail or playing music on the computer, and Ubuntu should handle those tasks by default as well as possible. That is not the case at the moment.. Not really, f-spot does this fantastically. Well, for advanced uses like you and me F-Spot is fine, but for normal home users it is too complicated. Also it has one huge drawback: it saves all the pictures in a folder structure based on months and dates. This makes it really hard to browse a F-Spot archive from the filesystem or from any other image viewer. I know tagging is the superior way to file and sort your images, but the case for normal home (and business) users is that they still like to think about their image collections as folders. F-Spot sucks at browsing images in folders and to get all the benefits of F-Spot you need to import the images first into the collection. That is an extra step.. Anyway at current Ubuntu defaults, the Eye of Gnome opens all jpg-images, and that is not good. Gthumb would be much better. Neither the the EOG nor F-Spot (in single image viewing mode) allows for any other functions than rotation. Cropping, resizing etc is missing - but can can be found in Gthumb. That is features you can actually find even in the default Windows Vista file browser, so I think this should really get some attention. Can anybody answer to my original question: who makes the decision about this and to who should I present my case? Some body at Gnome? -- Otto Kekäläinen www.sange.fi -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Gthumb as default image viewer?
I believe it was removed as part of this: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyReducingDuplication https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyReducingDuplicationHowever the wiki page was never updated and am unsure if there was any good public discussion (I was following it at the time). Ah: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-January/003055.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-January/003055.htmlThis is unfortunately the answer: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-January/003068.html My original feature comparison can be found here (go down to feature comparison): https://wiki.ubuntu.com/No-Mono-by-Default?action=recallrev=44 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-January/003068.htmlI don't believe my feature comparison was looked at, at all, at the time. Perhaps because I was asking to remove Mono it forced others into an automatic defense of it (and all things mono) on some sort of principle and they didn't treat the rest of my argument rationally? Hope I answered your question. I wish you better luck! -Bryan On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Otto Kekäläinen o...@sange.fi wrote: Lainaus Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com: On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Otto Kekäläinen o...@sange.fi wrote: From my experiences I'd say that importing digital images to your computer and managing them is as common as using e-mail or playing music on the computer, and Ubuntu should handle those tasks by default as well as possible. That is not the case at the moment.. Not really, f-spot does this fantastically. Well, for advanced uses like you and me F-Spot is fine, but for normal home users it is too complicated. Also it has one huge drawback: it saves all the pictures in a folder structure based on months and dates. This makes it really hard to browse a F-Spot archive from the filesystem or from any other image viewer. I know tagging is the superior way to file and sort your images, but the case for normal home (and business) users is that they still like to think about their image collections as folders. F-Spot sucks at browsing images in folders and to get all the benefits of F-Spot you need to import the images first into the collection. That is an extra step.. Anyway at current Ubuntu defaults, the Eye of Gnome opens all jpg-images, and that is not good. Gthumb would be much better. Neither the the EOG nor F-Spot (in single image viewing mode) allows for any other functions than rotation. Cropping, resizing etc is missing - but can can be found in Gthumb. That is features you can actually find even in the default Windows Vista file browser, so I think this should really get some attention. Can anybody answer to my original question: who makes the decision about this and to who should I present my case? Some body at Gnome? -- Otto Kekäläinen www.sange.fi -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Gthumb as default image viewer?
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Otto Kekäläinen o...@sange.fi wrote: Well, for advanced uses like you and me F-Spot is fine, but for normal home users it is too complicated. Could you provide some evidence for this? F-spot's UI needs some serious love, but the developers are working hard. Rather than have TWO photo managers, one of which isn't such a great photo manager, it makes more sense to file bugs on f-spot, and *make it *less complicated. Maybe you could point out some specific areas where you feel it's lacking for users. I wouldn't call myself an advanced photo user at all, I just use it for minor tagging, slide shows, and exporting to facebook/flickr. Also it has one huge drawback: it saves all the pictures in a folder structure based on months and dates. This makes it really hard to browse a F-Spot archive from the filesystem or from any other image viewer. I agree. This is really annoying. I know tagging is the superior way to file and sort your images, but the case for normal home (and business) users is that they still like to think about their image collections as folders. I'm pretty sure this isn't true. Folders confuse the hell out of everyone. They only think about them this way because it's all they've ever had. This is bigger than f-spot however and needs dealt with at the file system/file browser level. F-Spot sucks at browsing images in folders and to get all the benefits of F-Spot you need to import the images first into the collection. That is an extra step.. Not really, it's probably fewer steps because you don't need to navigate folders once you've imported whereas with a folder based one you're going in and out of directories. Anyway at current Ubuntu defaults, the Eye of Gnome opens all jpg-images, and that is not good. Gthumb would be much better. Neither the the EOG nor F-Spot (in single image viewing mode) allows for any other functions than rotation. Cropping, resizing etc is missing - but can can be found in Gthumb. That is features you can actually find even in the default Windows Vista file browser, so I think this should really get some attention. Let's file some f-spot bug reports :) This shouldn't be difficult to implement as the infrastructure already exists, it's just a UI change. Make some mockups, file some bugs, and reap the benefits. In the end, we'll all be better off. -- --Alex Launi -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Gthumb as default image viewer?
On gio, 2009-07-02 at 10:00 +0200, Alex Launi wrote: Also it has one huge drawback: it saves all the pictures in a folder structure based on months and dates. This makes it really hard to browse a F-Spot archive from the filesystem or from any other image viewer. I agree. This is really annoying. It would be very nice if f-spot could just open an image or a folder and in both cases act like its temporary collection is the folder itself. This would join the power of f-spot and the ease of use of eog or gthumb. And the same could be said of the other big duplicate, banshee vs. totem. Vincenzo -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Gthumb as default image viewer?
Lainaus Bryan Quigley gqu...@gmail.com: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyReducingDuplication https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-January/003055.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-January/003068.html https://wiki.ubuntu.com/No-Mono-by-Default?action=recallrev=44 Thanks Brian for these! It seems as if they've seen Gthumb and F-Spot as dupicates of each other. However to me EOG and Gthumb are duplicates and of those, the feature poor version got chosen. I don't think there would be a big problem if Gthumb and F-Spot would be both as defaults, as long as EOG would be removed. F-Spot could handle the image imports from cameras and the general photo collection management stuff, while Gthumb would be used then users browse with Nautilus and from there to open single files (and possibly do some small editing). -- Otto Kekäläinen www.sange.fi -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Gthumb as default image viewer?
Lainaus Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com: On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Otto Kekäläinen o...@sange.fi wrote: Well, for advanced uses like you and me F-Spot is fine, but for normal home users it is too complicated. Could you provide some evidence for this? F-spot's UI needs some serious We'll, I've migrated hundreds of Windows users into Ubuntu (I work for a Linux support company) and nine out of then users run into trouble when using Nautilus they try to open and/or manipulate images. On a fresh Ubuntu install I always install Gthumb and make it the default image viewer in Nautilus file associations. That fixes all the usability problems I've witnessed. I also work as a usability export in software development projects, and it's my professional opinion that Gthumb would be better than EOG. If you want to do usability testing yourself, try out this scenario: 1. prepare a folder with a lot of photos 2. ask the user to open that folder and do some tasks. for example: remove duplicate photos, rotate some image, crop/resize another etc. 3. copy that folder to a CD or USB and give it to you Step 2 is where users run into problems. At first when they doubleclick the image, the only function they can do is to rotate. After this users do various things, but most commonly they click the image with the secondary mouse button and select open with. First they try F-spot which also only allows rotating (in single image viewing mode). Secondly they open Gimp and then they scream, that Linux is too complicated. If Gthumb is installed, steps 2 and 3 generate only minor problems and most users succeed with the task (based on what I've seen in real life situations). Or try this: as a user to import a file from their camera/phone to the computer, then resize it to fit under on megabyte and then mail it to you. With Gthumb's ability to manipulate images in place this is easy but with EOG or F-Spot users will not make it at all. Asking somebody to use Gimp for this simple task is overkill. love, but the developers are working hard. Rather than have TWO photo managers, one of which isn't such a great photo manager, it makes more sense Yep, we really don't need to photo _managers_. Howerver we need one proper photo viewer and at the moment, Gthumb is the only one with all the most commonly needed features. to file bugs on f-spot, and *make it *less complicated. Maybe you could point out some specific areas where you feel it's lacking for users. I wouldn't call myself an advanced photo user at all, I just use it for minor tagging, slide shows, and exporting to facebook/flickr. If I'd file a bug, that the file hierarchy should be changed so, that imported folder remain and single folders, do you think they would do the change? Touching the filesystem is a major change in architecture and that is not something they'll do (I presume). However it could be worth to file a bug that the single image viewer mode should have more features, like cropping and resizing. Also it has one huge drawback: it saves all the pictures in a folder structure based on months and dates. This makes it really hard to browse a F-Spot archive from the filesystem or from any other image viewer. I agree. This is really annoying. Jep, this is the biggest drawback and I don't think they'll change this, because the whole idea with F-Spot is to forget the old file hierarchy and move on to tagging based work model. I know tagging is the superior way to file and sort your images, but the case for normal home (and business) users is that they still like to think about their image collections as folders. I'm pretty sure this isn't true. Folders confuse the hell out of everyone. They only think about them this way because it's all they've ever had. This is bigger than f-spot however and needs dealt with at the file system/file browser level. Sure folders confuse, but since users anyway browse their files in Nautilus in the first place, jumping to F-Spot to manipulate an image in a folder really messes up the users head. F-Spot sucks at browsing images in folders and to get all the benefits of F-Spot you need to import the images first into the collection. That is an extra step.. Not really, it's probably fewer steps because you don't need to navigate folders once you've imported whereas with a folder based one you're going in and out of directories. Yes, but if you have images somewhere else, like on a CD, on a network drive, on your phones memory card, on a USB stick etc and you start out in Nautilus, doing an import to F-Spot is an extra step. Anyway at current Ubuntu defaults, the Eye of Gnome opens all jpg-images, and that is not good. Gthumb would be much better. Neither the the EOG nor F-Spot (in single image viewing mode) allows for any other functions than rotation. Cropping, resizing etc is missing - but can can be found in Gthumb. That
Re: Gthumb as default image viewer?
On jeu., 2009-07-02 at 11:15 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: It would be very nice if f-spot could just open an image Run f-spot --view example.jpg? It's also in the nautilus context menu actions for images Sebastien Bacher -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Gthumb as default image viewer?
On mer., 2009-07-01 at 18:00 +0300, Otto Kekäläinen wrote: Hello, I've been wondering why isn't Gthumb the default image viewer? Eye of Gnome is unable to do the most common manipulations on a image, like cropping and resizing. Hi, You wrote default image viewer and then list edition options, eog is used right now because of several reasons: - it's part of GNOME (regular tarballs, schedule aligned on ubuntu, good translations) - it has a simple interface which is want you want for a viewer, gthumb has lot of extra options which can be useful but complicate the interface - edition can be done using an image editor, ie f-spot or gimp by example -- Sebastien Bacher -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Gthumb as default image viewer?
On gio, 2009-07-02 at 12:16 +0200, Sebastien Bacher wrote: Run f-spot --view example.jpg? It's also in the nautilus context menu actions for images Sebastien Bacher I stand corrected, however it still does not mimic eog's behaviour, it would need forward and backward actions to view an entire folder of pictures, a slideshow mode etc, so that when I get a usb pen full of pictures I can just show them to my friends with a click. That's covered by eog, but currently not by f-spot. Even though perhaps the default behaviour of eog is bad usability because one would not expect to open a file and get access to other files. Many alternative methods come to mind but let's talk about that if somebody is interested, I don't want to pollute the mailing list. Vincenzo -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Gthumb as default image viewer?
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Otto Kekäläineno...@sange.fi wrote: Lainaus Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com: On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Otto Kekäläinen o...@sange.fi wrote: Well, for advanced uses like you and me F-Spot is fine, but for normal home users it is too complicated. Could you provide some evidence for this? F-spot's UI needs some serious We'll, I've migrated hundreds of Windows users into Ubuntu (I work for a Linux support company) and nine out of then users run into trouble when using Nautilus they try to open and/or manipulate images. On a fresh Ubuntu install I always install Gthumb and make it the default image viewer in Nautilus file associations. That fixes all the usability problems I've witnessed. I also work as a usability export in software development projects, and it's my professional opinion that Gthumb would be better than EOG. If you want to do usability testing yourself, try out this scenario: 1. prepare a folder with a lot of photos 2. ask the user to open that folder and do some tasks. for example: remove duplicate photos, rotate some image, crop/resize another etc. 3. copy that folder to a CD or USB and give it to you Step 2 is where users run into problems. At first when they doubleclick the image, the only function they can do is to rotate. After this users do various things, but most commonly they click the image with the secondary mouse button and select open with. First they try F-spot which also only allows rotating (in single image viewing mode). Secondly they open Gimp and then they scream, that Linux is too complicated. I think you touch on the real issue here. It's not so much a problem with viewing photos, as we all have noted there are already two options, EOG when you are in a folder and F-Spot for collections. The real problem is that those programs aren't image editors and the GIMP is a tool for advanced users. GThumb doesn't solve this problem either. I don't think there is a real solution for Karmic, but I am excited to see where a new project called Nathive goes. It's an image editor for GNOME focused on usability, logic and providing a smooth learning curve for everyone. It's definitely a niche that the GNOME desktop needs filled http://www.nathive.org/ If Gthumb is installed, steps 2 and 3 generate only minor problems and most users succeed with the task (based on what I've seen in real life situations). Or try this: as a user to import a file from their camera/phone to the computer, then resize it to fit under on megabyte and then mail it to you. With Gthumb's ability to manipulate images in place this is easy but with EOG or F-Spot users will not make it at all. Asking somebody to use Gimp for this simple task is overkill. love, but the developers are working hard. Rather than have TWO photo managers, one of which isn't such a great photo manager, it makes more sense Yep, we really don't need to photo _managers_. Howerver we need one proper photo viewer and at the moment, Gthumb is the only one with all the most commonly needed features. to file bugs on f-spot, and *make it *less complicated. Maybe you could point out some specific areas where you feel it's lacking for users. I wouldn't call myself an advanced photo user at all, I just use it for minor tagging, slide shows, and exporting to facebook/flickr. If I'd file a bug, that the file hierarchy should be changed so, that imported folder remain and single folders, do you think they would do the change? Touching the filesystem is a major change in architecture and that is not something they'll do (I presume). However it could be worth to file a bug that the single image viewer mode should have more features, like cropping and resizing. Also it has one huge drawback: it saves all the pictures in a folder structure based on months and dates. This makes it really hard to browse a F-Spot archive from the filesystem or from any other image viewer. I agree. This is really annoying. Jep, this is the biggest drawback and I don't think they'll change this, because the whole idea with F-Spot is to forget the old file hierarchy and move on to tagging based work model. I know tagging is the superior way to file and sort your images, but the case for normal home (and business) users is that they still like to think about their image collections as folders. I'm pretty sure this isn't true. Folders confuse the hell out of everyone. They only think about them this way because it's all they've ever had. This is bigger than f-spot however and needs dealt with at the file system/file browser level. Sure folders confuse, but since users anyway browse their files in Nautilus in the first place, jumping to F-Spot to manipulate an image in a folder really messes up the users head. F-Spot sucks at browsing images in folders and to get all the benefits of F-Spot you need to import the images first into the
Re: Gthumb as default image viewer?
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Otto Kekäläineno...@sange.fi wrote: Well, for advanced uses like you and me F-Spot is fine, but for normal home users it is too complicated. Also it has one huge drawback: it saves all the pictures in a folder structure based on months and dates. This makes it really hard to browse a F-Spot archive from the filesystem or from any other image viewer. I know tagging is the superior way to file and sort your images, but the case for normal home (and business) users is that they still like to think about their image collections as folders. F-Spot sucks at browsing images in folders and to get all the benefits of F-Spot you need to import the images first into the collection. That is an extra step.. While it is certainly not ready yet to replace f-spot in karmic, it might be worthwhile to keep an eye on Solang. It is very similar to f-spot but doesn't require photos to be moved and it uses much less resources than f-spot. Additionally a nice benefit is that it plans to manage photos on webbased storages such as flickr and picasa as well, in line with ubuntu's plans to integrate the desktop with the web. Version 0.1 can be found in the Karmic repositories. Wouter -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
