Re: lightdm or gdm?

[Robert Ancell]

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:58 AM Jeremy Bicha  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Sebastien Bacher 
> wrote:
> > - gnome-shell uses gdm for its lockscreen so work is needed to make it
> > work with lightdm
>
> Generally, lightdm works with GNOME, but it hasn't been tested much so
> it sometimes take a while before bugs are noticed and fixed. Here's
> some lightdm with GNOME bugs I just learned about:
>
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1632772 (No Wayland support)
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1684205 (Missing lock button)
>


LightDM has supported Wayland since 1.16 (Ubuntu 15.10). This has however
not been actively used or enhanced by me due to the conflict of interest
with the development of Mir. Now we are using Wayland on the desktop I
expect to be much more involved in this feature.

--Robert

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Re: lightdm or gdm?

[Robert Ancell]

Thanks Seb,

= Disclaimer =

Firstly, I should disclose my interests - I am the founder and maintainer
of LightDM. I'll try and minimise any biases I might have. Ultimately I
want the best outcome and I'm happy with either way we go as long as it
makes sense.

= History (simplified) =

In the beginning there was one Display Manager - XDM. Various desktops
forked this project to produce their own display managers that displayed
appropriate UI for their desktop (e.g. Qt on KDE with KDM, GTK+ on GNOME
with GDM).

LightDM was started for two reasons:
- We were having quality / maintenance issues with GDM in Ubuntu. GDM was
highly complex.
- None of the display managers allowed you to change greeter technology
outside of a bit of themeing.

The goal was to have a common display manager daemon (LightDM) and allow
each desktop to develop their own greeter against a stable greeter API
(liblightdm).

Ubuntu switched to LightDM in 11.10 and developed Unity Greeter. I gave up
pushing LightDM in GNOME (which I regret) amidst the Unity-GNOME flamewars.
KDE came super close to picking LightDM as a replacement for KDM with a
huge list of positives (including having the second most active LightDM
developer being from KDE). The major point against it was the CLA. That was
very disappointing. Most of the small desktops seem to have chosen LightDM
and seem quite happy with it.

= Pros and cons =

In addition to Seb's list:

* LightDM
+ an extensive test suite that contains 370 test cases. The test cases run
a full LightdDM setup and simulate all components.
+ a sophisticated configuration system that allows packagers and sysadmins
to override configuration. Some sysadmins may have work in switching from
LightDM to GDM (I can't quantify how significant this is).
+ Extensive logging that helps in debugging issues.
+ Support for greeters in multiple languages / platforms (C, Qt, Python etc
via GIR, Vala).
+ VNC support.
+ Remote login support (this has not been used for sometime and may or may
not be useful in the future).
+ Support for Mir (I don't know if this is important anymore, but dropping
LightDM would mean no DM supports it).

* GDM
- no significant tests (make check runs one thing from 2007)

= My conclusion =

My preference is to continue with LightDM for the following reasons:
- I think the tests and features of LightDM are superior to GDM (I could be
biased here).
- To switch would create some work for sysadmins who use existing features.
- I think the amount of work to get LightDM to work with GNOME Shell is
roughly equivalent to getting new features into GDM.
- LightDM is not an enormous amount of work to maintain - it's quite mature.
- If we were to stop developing LightDM this would be a huge loss to the
community outside of GNOME. Being used across various projects means we
have a larger pool of developers testing and fixing bugs. I'll have to
defer to my manager(s) to decide if this investment / divergence is
considered worth it.
- We always have the option of switching to GDM in the future if we want
to, the switch back would be harder.

Finally a clarification - when you refer to "LightDM" this never means any
UI that you see (LightDM is a daemon and contains no UI code). So
continuing with LightDM does not mean using Unity Greeter. The Unity
Greeter code has bitrotted to such a point we clearly would not use it (it
was to be replaced with Unity8 Greeter).

--Robert

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 2:32 AM Sebastien Bacher  wrote:

> Hey there,
>
> That's a topic that was mentioned during the meeting yesterday and
> something we need to decide on early in the cycle since there is going
> to be work needed on that front to have a fully working session.
>
> I'm doing a small summary of what I think are the pro (+) and con (-) of
> each
>
> * lightdm
>
> + well tested in Ubuntu
> + we have people in the team knowing the codebase
> + shared with other flavors/greeters selection
> + guest session
> - divergence from upstream
> - we are the maintainers so it's more work for us
> - gnome-shell uses gdm for its lockscreen so work is needed to make it
> work with lightdm
>
> * gdm
>
> + that's the GNOME solution, works today with wayland & gnome-shell
> - we started lightdm because we found the gdm codebase not easy to work
> on, that might still be true
> - ?keeps an active session from the greeter even after logging which
> uses resources? (it was mentioned on IRC, to be confirmed, is that
> needed due to the lockscreen?)
> - no guest session, we need to work on that or decide to drop the
> feature from Ubuntu
>
>
> I talked a bit with Robert yesterday who said he could make lightdm use
> the gdm greeter (he has some work started on that a few cycles ago)
> which means it could be used as GNOME lockscreen instead of gdm. He's
> probably the best placed to comment on the work and pro/con of the
> solutions though so I'm going to let him go into the details when he
> replies.
>
> Cheers,
> Sebastien 

Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Luke Yelavich]

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 06:07:16AM AEST, Jeremy Bicha wrote:
> If we do include an email client, which one?
> 
> Thunderbird (TB)

This is the most usable from a screen reader accessibility point of view. 
Evolution is getting there, but still has some work needing to be done. Not 
sure about the other options proposed in this thread, although electron apps 
are not accessible either.

Luke

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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Adolfo Jayme Barrientos]

I hate Electron “apps”. What about Sylpheed?
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Re: lightdm or gdm?

[Jeremy Bicha]

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Sebastien Bacher  wrote:
> - gnome-shell uses gdm for its lockscreen so work is needed to make it
> work with lightdm

Generally, lightdm works with GNOME, but it hasn't been tested much so
it sometimes take a while before bugs are noticed and fixed. Here's
some lightdm with GNOME bugs I just learned about:

https://launchpad.net/bugs/1632772 (No Wayland support)
https://launchpad.net/bugs/1684205 (Missing lock button)

Jeremy

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Re: lightdm or gdm?

[Dimitri John Ledkov]

On 19 April 2017 at 15:32, Sebastien Bacher  wrote:
> Hey there,
>
> That's a topic that was mentioned during the meeting yesterday and
> something we need to decide on early in the cycle since there is going
> to be work needed on that front to have a fully working session.
>
> I'm doing a small summary of what I think are the pro (+) and con (-) of
> each
>
> * lightdm
>
> + well tested in Ubuntu
> + we have people in the team knowing the codebase
> + shared with other flavors/greeters selection
> + guest session
> - divergence from upstream
> - we are the maintainers so it's more work for us
> - gnome-shell uses gdm for its lockscreen so work is needed to make it
> work with lightdm
>
> * gdm
>
> + that's the GNOME solution, works today with wayland & gnome-shell
> - we started lightdm because we found the gdm codebase not easy to work
> on, that might still be true
> - ?keeps an active session from the greeter even after logging which
> uses resources? (it was mentioned on IRC, to be confirmed, is that
> needed due to the lockscreen?)
> - no guest session, we need to work on that or decide to drop the
> feature from Ubuntu
>

Currently, in ubiquity we maintain a barebones ubiquity-dm which is
very DE which somewhat mimiced unity experience - it has a panel and
launches indicators, and offers users to run ubiquity installer under
it, or click the "Try Ubuntu" to skip through lightdm into a live
desktop session.

Ideally, I would like to drop that code in-favor of using gdm +
gnome-shell in the installer/app mode. As far as I understand during
live-session we use "ubuntu" user, and we do not by default show login
manager (lightdm) UI nor offer guest session.

(Well, the system indicator allows one to switch into guest session
mode, but said indicator will not be available anyway)

>
> I talked a bit with Robert yesterday who said he could make lightdm use
> the gdm greeter (he has some work started on that a few cycles ago)
> which means it could be used as GNOME lockscreen instead of gdm. He's
> probably the best placed to comment on the work and pro/con of the
> solutions though so I'm going to let him go into the details when he
> replies.
>

I think that would be nice, if we could use gdm as a lightdm greeter
to get the guest sessions. I did enquire if that is at all possible
during release sprint too.

Or try again for GDM to provide guest sessions?

Can guest sessions be improved with lxd containers at all? E.g. spawn
an ephemeral container that pretends to be user ubuntu, when in fact
it is namespaced away and self-destructs on log out?

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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Paul Tansom]

** Amr Ibrahim  [2017-04-19 12:33]:
> As an Ubuntu user since 2010, the first thing I do after installing a 
> new Ubuntu is to setup my three email accounts (Gmail, Outlook and 
> another IMAP) in Thunderbird. I prefer to have one interface for my 
> different accounts. I never (rarely) use web mail. Web mail is slower 
> and every provider has a different interface.
> 
> I like Thunderbird. It's the only email client I use. It never failed me 
> and I don't have any problems with it. Nevertheless, I don't mind trying 
> a new client out of curiosity, but I reckon none could beat the 
> extensibility of Thunderbird with add-ons.
** end quote [Amr Ibrahim]

I'm torn on this as I'm not completely sure whether I count as a typical user.
That said, with every Ubuntu install I do for a non-technical user (well, any
Ubuntu desktop install realy) I configure Thunderbird for mail. I'm tempted to
suggest that so long as it stays in main it doesn't have to be installed by
default, but that leads to concern that it will fade away from there without as
much consideration as it would have it it remains default. Then there is the
issue of what handles mail links, etc.

>From a personal perspective I find webmail and mobile mail apps completely
inadequate for anything other than test emails and checking mail when out,
knowing that I will do it properly when I return. My primary mail client is
Mutt, but I do use Thunderbird for access to HTML mail when I have to, and have
it configured for most of my accounts and the main one for some. I've tried
others and not found anything as good, even though it is gradually looking
dated (although *looking* is the key here as functionality hasn't needed to
change significantly).

I've been a Netscape/Mozilla/Thunderbird user since the early 90s though, IMAP
since the mid 90s and running my own home mail server since the late 90s;
followed Linux since the early 90s, used since the mid 90s and Ubuntu since
'06... if that puts my opinions into context.

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lightdm or gdm?

[Sebastien Bacher]

Hey there,

That's a topic that was mentioned during the meeting yesterday and
something we need to decide on early in the cycle since there is going
to be work needed on that front to have a fully working session.

I'm doing a small summary of what I think are the pro (+) and con (-) of
each

* lightdm

+ well tested in Ubuntu
+ we have people in the team knowing the codebase
+ shared with other flavors/greeters selection
+ guest session
- divergence from upstream
- we are the maintainers so it's more work for us
- gnome-shell uses gdm for its lockscreen so work is needed to make it
work with lightdm

* gdm

+ that's the GNOME solution, works today with wayland & gnome-shell
- we started lightdm because we found the gdm codebase not easy to work
on, that might still be true
- ?keeps an active session from the greeter even after logging which
uses resources? (it was mentioned on IRC, to be confirmed, is that
needed due to the lockscreen?)
- no guest session, we need to work on that or decide to drop the
feature from Ubuntu


I talked a bit with Robert yesterday who said he could make lightdm use
the gdm greeter (he has some work started on that a few cycles ago)
which means it could be used as GNOME lockscreen instead of gdm. He's
probably the best placed to comment on the work and pro/con of the
solutions though so I'm going to let him go into the details when he
replies.

Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher


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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Paul Tansom]

** Jeremy Bicha  [2017-04-19 13:18]:
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 4:26 AM, Will Cooke  wrote:
> > In my opinion we should ship a mail client by default.
> 
> One more argument: Windows 7 was released in 2009 without a
> pre-installed email app.
** end quote [Jeremy Bicha]

...and Windows 10 includes a pre-installed email app (I can't remember what
Windows 8/8.1 did). It may be complete and utter rubbish, but it is there.
(Complete and utter rubbish to the point that I can put more signature
information in my Android mail app than I can in the included Windows 10 one;
and I know people, including small businesses, that are currently trying to
find an alternative to the Windows Live mail client that ceased in 2012 as is
now no longer installable - Outlook doesn't get considered even when they have
it included in the latest Office 2016 because it doesn't suite their needs).

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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Sebastien Bacher]

Hey Marco,

Le 19/04/2017 à 12:10, Marco Trevisan a écrit :
> I think geary has more or less the same UI concepts, and IMHO that would
> be a good basic mail client to ship: well integrated, well designed and
> completely open. Not fully featured maybe, but giving the the most users
> would need.

While geary looks nice and is a small application I'm not sure
it's good enough to be our default choice. Email clients are tricky
(need to deal with lot of weird servers) and thunderbird/evolution just
got more work and users and are tested solutions that we know do the
job, geary would probably require quite some investment to get "there".

Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher

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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Sebastien Bacher]

Hey Jeremy,

Le 18/04/2017 à 22:07, Jeremy Bicha a écrit :
> Should we even install an email client by default? The question is not
> whether it's useful, but whether it's useful enough to enough people
> to justify it being installed for everyone.

I think there is value in having pre-installed solutions for things most
users have a need for so I would vote in favor of keeping an email
client on the iso, especially that disk space is not so much of an issue
nowadays.

On whether we should use thunderbird or evolution I would be careful to
not try to do more than we can this cycle, changing our softwares
selection is likely to involve extra work.

I would suggest that we first handle the desktop change while keeping
our current applications set and see how things go, if we manage to go
over most of that work by mid-cycle and see that we have enough
resources to handle other things then we can have a look at extra changes...

Cheers,

Sebastien Bacher


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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Khurshid Alam]

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:

I used geary briefly yesterday and here are a few issues I saw:
1. The latest released version still uses webkit1 (the next version
will use webkit2gtk though)
2. Does not use GNOME Online Accounts
3. Does not appear to support Google Two-Factor Authentication
4. No support for GPG/PGP signing or encryption
5. No POP3 support (This might not be a bad thing though)


1. Yes. And next release is happening soonway before 17.10 release.

2. WIP: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=714876
It picked up some activities lately 
(https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=768975),

so it may get fixed in next release.

3. Known issue. There is work-around describe here: 
https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Geary/FAQ#Using_Google.2BIBk-s_2-Step_authentication


4. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=713403



Thanks.



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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Dimitri John Ledkov]

On 19 April 2017 at 13:41, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:17 AM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
>>By default, Nylas syncs your email to their servers.
>
> It looks like that's not true any more. You still need a sync server
> for things besides the email messages themselves.
> https://blog.nylas.com/nylas-mail-is-now-free-8350d6a1044d
>

It looks really nice.

Looking at pricing page it says that Linux/Windows support is part of Pro only.
https://nylas.com/pricing

But I guess it simply means they do not provide compiled binaries for
free, but we can just build them from source ourself.
However this might be just a build issue on their side for the basic version:
from https://blog.nylas.com/nylas-mail-is-now-free-8350d6a1044d
"
Where are the Windows and Linux downloads?
We’re still working out a few bugs in the Windows and Linux builds.
They’ll be ready in a couple weeks.
"

Somehow mail for me is in the bucket of specialised apps, and it seems
like none of the current "full-featured" email clients follow the
latest GNOME guidelines, thus including any one of them will be a bit
out of line.
I'll try to play with nylas a bit; and imho shipping it by default
might be a gamble I could see us take.

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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Jeremy Bicha]

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:17 AM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
>By default, Nylas syncs your email to their servers.

It looks like that's not true any more. You still need a sync server
for things besides the email messages themselves.
https://blog.nylas.com/nylas-mail-is-now-free-8350d6a1044d

Jeremy

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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Jeremy Bicha]

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 4:26 AM, Will Cooke  wrote:
> In my opinion we should ship a mail client by default.

One more argument: Windows 7 was released in 2009 without a
pre-installed email app.

> How about considering Nylas mail?  https://www.nylas.com/nylas-mail/
> The free version is open source and it has an active team behind it.

Nylas is popular in general, yet it's a bit controversial in the open
source community. I downloaded it to test it but I couldn't run the
app without first setting up a Nylas.com account (or equivalent). By
default, Nylas syncs your email to their servers. You can run your own
clone of the service on your own server if you want to do all the work
of configuring it securely. [1]

1. Nylas is an Electron app not integrated with GNOME.
2. It uses the legacy system tray (nothing in Ubuntu GNOME's default
install uses that).
3. Nylas is not packaged in Debian or Ubuntu and there hasn't been
much interest in doing so yet.

[1] https://github.com/nylas/sync-engine

Thanks,
Jeremy

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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Amr Ibrahim]

Hallo,

As an Ubuntu user since 2010, the first thing I do after installing a 
new Ubuntu is to setup my three email accounts (Gmail, Outlook and 
another IMAP) in Thunderbird. I prefer to have one interface for my 
different accounts. I never (rarely) use web mail. Web mail is slower 
and every provider has a different interface.

I like Thunderbird. It's the only email client I use. It never failed me 
and I don't have any problems with it. Nevertheless, I don't mind trying 
a new client out of curiosity, but I reckon none could beat the 
extensibility of Thunderbird with add-ons.

Regards,
Amr

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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Marco Trevisan]

Il 19/04/2017 16:26, Will Cooke ha scritto:
> On 18 April 2017 at 21:07, Jeremy Bicha  > wrote:
> 
> If we do include an email client, which one?
> 
> 
> In my opinion we should ship a mail client by default.

I kinda agree

> How about considering Nylas mail?  https://www.nylas.com/nylas-mail/
> The free version is open source and it has an active team behind it.
>  https://github.com/nylas/nylas-mail

I've used it for a while, but then it basically needed some paid
services to run anyway, so... Not fully open eventually.

I think geary has more or less the same UI concepts, and IMHO that would
be a good basic mail client to ship: well integrated, well designed and
completely open. Not fully featured maybe, but giving the the most users
would need.

I'm not sure how it works in term of stability, though... And since I
think that next cycle will be quite dense of work to do, I guess there's
not much room to work directly on this.

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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Kevin Reynolds]

Ooo!  That's a really good point.  Why do anything if people are going
to do whatever they want anyway?  Actually, I thought that was the whole
idea of "Free Software".  I'm a "Gmail" user but I do it through
ThunderBird anyway.  I prefer that to opening a browser.  Give us a good
alternative!

Kevin


On 04/19/2017 01:02 AM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote:
> I think it's a very bad idea for Free Software distributions to stop
> distributing Free Software based on the argument that a lot of people
> use proprietary software. That used to be the whole point; most people
> use proprietary software, so we should make an effort to get people to
> use Free Software.
>
> If the argument is that a lot of people use webmail and Gmail in
> particular, then why stop there? A lot of people use Google Docs too,
> so maybe ditch LibreOffice? Online streaming continues to grow in
> popularity, so local media playback might no longer be a technical
> requirement. People can just install it if they want to.
>
> There's very few desktop applications in Ubuntu that needs to be
> shipped once we accept the argument that the proprietary clouds are a
> suitable replacement.
>
> On 18 April 2017 at 22:07, Jeremy Bicha  > wrote:
>
> In 2011, we switched Ubuntu's default email client from Evolution to
> Thunderbird. Six years later, I think it's time to take another look.
>
> Should we even install an email client by default? The question is not
> whether it's useful, but whether it's useful enough to enough people
> to justify it being installed for everyone.
>
> - Ubuntu GNOME 16.10 included Evolution but 17.04 has no email client
> installed at all. The decision disappointed a few people but there
> hasn't been much negative feedback at all yet.
>
> - GNOME Release Team member Michael Catanzaro recommends not
> installing an email client by default since there isn't an app that is
> both well-maintained and very well-integrated into the GNOME 3 style.
> [1]
>
> - It's believed that most people just use web mail now, often along
> with apps on their smart phone.
>
> - A problem is that those who do prefer to use an installed email
> client do not all prefer the same one!
>
> If we do include an email client, which one?
>
> Thunderbird (TB)
> -
> 1. TB is still built with GTK2.
> 2. TB is a community project now and Mozilla no longer pays developers
> to work on it.
> 3. It looks like TB will have a lot of work to do next year once
> Firefox drops traditional extension support with FF57. This work might
> be shared with other apps that use Mozilla code.
> 4. TB does not integrate with GNOME Online Accounts.
> 5. TB has better Unity integration than Evolution.
> 6. There was a proposal a year and a half ago to turn TB into a web
> app but I don't think that went anywhere. [2]
>
> Evolution
> --
> 1. The UI doesn't fully embrace GNOME3 app design style, but it is
> closer than TB.
> 2. Small development team.
> 3. Evolution is not available on other operating systems.
> 4. Evolution is relatively easy to co-maintain with Debian.
>
> [1]
> https://blogs.gnome.org/mcatanzaro/2016/09/21/gnome-3-22-core-apps/
> 
> [2]
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tb-planning/h97q9cDUZOU
> 
>
> Thanks,
> Jeremy Bicha
>
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> 
>
>
>
>

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but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by.
If there are Gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them.
If there are no Gods, then you will be gone,
but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your 
loved ones.
Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Will Cooke]

On 18 April 2017 at 21:07, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:

> If we do include an email client, which one?
>

In my opinion we should ship a mail client by default.

While I agree that a lot of people use web mail now, I expect (based on
little evidence) there will still be a significant number of users for whom
an "offline" mail experience of [dialing up,] downloading mail, and then
reading and composing offline is a necessary or preferred work-flow.  So
providing that ability out of the box appeals to me.

How about considering Nylas mail?  https://www.nylas.com/nylas-mail/
The free version is open source and it has an active team behind it.
https://github.com/nylas/nylas-mail

Cheers, Will
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Re: Proposal: (No?) email client for Ubuntu 17.10

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

I think it's a very bad idea for Free Software distributions to stop
distributing Free Software based on the argument that a lot of people use
proprietary software. That used to be the whole point; most people use
proprietary software, so we should make an effort to get people to use Free
Software.

If the argument is that a lot of people use webmail and Gmail in
particular, then why stop there? A lot of people use Google Docs too, so
maybe ditch LibreOffice? Online streaming continues to grow in popularity,
so local media playback might no longer be a technical requirement. People
can just install it if they want to.

There's very few desktop applications in Ubuntu that needs to be shipped
once we accept the argument that the proprietary clouds are a suitable
replacement.

On 18 April 2017 at 22:07, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:

> In 2011, we switched Ubuntu's default email client from Evolution to
> Thunderbird. Six years later, I think it's time to take another look.
>
> Should we even install an email client by default? The question is not
> whether it's useful, but whether it's useful enough to enough people
> to justify it being installed for everyone.
>
> - Ubuntu GNOME 16.10 included Evolution but 17.04 has no email client
> installed at all. The decision disappointed a few people but there
> hasn't been much negative feedback at all yet.
>
> - GNOME Release Team member Michael Catanzaro recommends not
> installing an email client by default since there isn't an app that is
> both well-maintained and very well-integrated into the GNOME 3 style.
> [1]
>
> - It's believed that most people just use web mail now, often along
> with apps on their smart phone.
>
> - A problem is that those who do prefer to use an installed email
> client do not all prefer the same one!
>
> If we do include an email client, which one?
>
> Thunderbird (TB)
> -
> 1. TB is still built with GTK2.
> 2. TB is a community project now and Mozilla no longer pays developers
> to work on it.
> 3. It looks like TB will have a lot of work to do next year once
> Firefox drops traditional extension support with FF57. This work might
> be shared with other apps that use Mozilla code.
> 4. TB does not integrate with GNOME Online Accounts.
> 5. TB has better Unity integration than Evolution.
> 6. There was a proposal a year and a half ago to turn TB into a web
> app but I don't think that went anywhere. [2]
>
> Evolution
> --
> 1. The UI doesn't fully embrace GNOME3 app design style, but it is
> closer than TB.
> 2. Small development team.
> 3. Evolution is not available on other operating systems.
> 4. Evolution is relatively easy to co-maintain with Debian.
>
> [1] https://blogs.gnome.org/mcatanzaro/2016/09/21/gnome-3-22-core-apps/
> [2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tb-planning/h97q9cDUZOU
>
> Thanks,
> Jeremy Bicha
>
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