Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
On Saturday 15 March 2008 02:25:43 Remco wrote: On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 2:33 AM, Mackenzie Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, there aren't any ext3 defrag tools anyway (ok maybe a few userspace ones, but that seems unusual), so we can avoid *that* bit of the argument, but there is NTFS support, and that definitely *does* need to be defragged. Yeah, it's weird. NTFS does fragment a deal more than any Unix filesystem I know, but Unix filesystems still fragment! Quite a bit, too, if you have only 1% of free space like I always seem to have. ;-) The question of course, is: does that make filesystem operations much slower? I don't have any hard data on that. Just a gut-feeling that says Yes. snip Remco I've been using shake for the past months and I can tell you that I note a substantial difference in my system if a few weeks goes by without me running it ( i have a cron at the last day of the month) Its quite easy to install and use, but no package for ubuntu. Other than the targz I just needed libattr1-dev, attr and user_xattr on my fstab: UUID=e3740d46-69f9-4a4b-8f5c-707d262369a4 /home ext3 noatime,user_xattr 0 2 give it a try. by the way I too have my disks many times close to 100% full. $ sudo fsck.ext3 -fnv /dev/sda5 185295 inodes used (3.29%) 26355 non-contiguous inodes (14.2%) # of inodes with ind/dind/tind blocks: 32742/519/0 10411844 blocks used (91.77%) -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://Ubuntu.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 10:56 +0100, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: I thought so, but it looks like people don't make the difference between preferences (personal) and administration (ugly system and hardware stuff). The fact is that we are now turning round. Anyway, we should make clear whther we need a deeper refactoring, in which case the Preferences/Administration issue will disappear. In gnome-control-center, we are working on tweaking the control center which is in GNOME since 2.20, but not enabled by default (you can try it by running gnome-control-center from the terminal or ALT+F2). This doesn't differentiate between preferences and administration and might replace the menus in the future. Regards, Denis -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Greg K Nicholson a écrit : On Sat, 2008-03-15 at 11:19 +0100, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) wrote: You'd call it My Diary because you are creating it for yourself. The user doesn't label the Preferences menu for themself—the label is applied by the computer. “My” is only ever used to mean “your” on toys for three-year-olds*, much like how when talking to a small child one refers to things using the name *they* should use to refer to them (for example calling yourself “Mummy” or “Daddy” instead of “me”). Small children aren't clever enough to understand pronouns. (* Windows XP—I know.) Speaking for the user—using “my” as if they'd written it—is disingenuous and/or talks down to the user, so it should be avoided. I like your way of presenting this language habit. ;-) If we could pull in the the user's actual name in a way that's compatible with a wide variety of cultures, I'd suggest using something like “Preferences for Greg”. That may do the trick, as it's already used by the home folder on the desktop. Or we ca say User Preferences, with this Administration will appear much clearer. If that's not possible, just “Preferences” will do—the word “preference” tends to imply *personal* preference anyway. I thought so, but it looks like people don't make the difference between preferences (personal) and administration (ugly system and hardware stuff). The fact is that we are now turning round. Anyway, we should make clear whther we need a deeper refactoring, in which case the Preferences/Administration issue will disappear. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 10:56 +0100, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: Or we ca say User Preferences, with this Administration will appear much clearer. If that's not possible, just “Preferences” will do—the word “preference” tends to imply *personal* preference anyway. I thought so, but it looks like people don't make the difference between preferences (personal) and administration (ugly system and hardware stuff). I'm not sure that most users would immediately recognise themselves as “the user” – I think that's a word *we* tend to apply to them. So I think that that wording (“User Preferences”) might seem a little bit foreign to some users. …but not problematically so, and if this makes it clearer that these are *personal* preferences then I think this'd be an improvement. The fact is that we are now turning round. Anyway, we should make clear whther we need a deeper refactoring, in which case the Preferences/Administration issue will disappear. I think de-segregating the two is a good idea in general – it's easy to forget whether the setting you're after is global or personal, even when applying lots of logic- and experience-based mojo. However, (how) will it still be clear when one's changing a global setting as opposed to a personal preference? As a quick, rough UI sketch: the Unlock button could instead say “Administration” and open a new sub-dialogue solely for administrative settings (with “Administration” shoe-horned into the title somehow). Or, each dialogue could include a progressive disclosure control (labelled “Administration”) that would disclose the admin settings, all of which would be greyed out until the Unlock button (which would now live *inside* the progressively-disclosed area) was used and, if necessary, the password entered. (I suggest that the admin settings should always need unlocking when entering the dialogue – even if gksudo is remembering the password and it won't need to be re-entered – to emphasise that these options are potent and “a little bit scary”.) I prefer the progressive disclosure method – “new sub-dialogue” is not a nice phrase, and this option would still maintain a clear distinction between personal preferences and admin settings. I also think it's a good idea to show the user what settings they'll be able to change *before* having them enter their password, which is tedious by design. -- Greg K Nicholson -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) wrote on 15/03/08 08:22: Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: ... Please also take care of not doing this change alone - you're aware of that since you asked the list. This should be discussed with GNOME, since they have the same issue. Moreover, PolicyKit is going to add many changes in this domain, and maybe the distinction system-wide/user-only will disappear soon. This will be a real problem while we are migrating, and I'm glad you're caring about this now. Maybe the best solution would be a single Control Center, which already exists. So please see this in a long-term outlook, changes are likely to happen in the newt months. This is indeed true. I remember the Gnome Control Center were introduced to replace those two menu sets in feisty then removed after a few days. I think the reason was that a lot of people found that it was slower to access a menu item this way. You have to wait longer for the Control Center to open than you have to wait for the Preferences/Administration menus to open. Then you still need to wait just as long for the individual control panel to open, then when you've finished you have to close the Control Center separately, which you don't need to do with the menu. That doesn't mean the current menus are good -- they're pretty bad. :-) But they're still quicker, most of the time, than the current Gnome Control Center. A more professional solution would be to merge the configurations GUIs and use policy kit to hide System Wide tasks. But this takes time. I am really wondering if we shouldn't study this solution. Have a single GUI for Printing but hide some options using policy kit ... ... That's one part of the solution. You may have seen that this general problem is also discussed on Brainstorm. http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/80 Cheers - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH22zJ6PUxNfU6ecoRApmWAJ45G8Xv0yih0uyfNZqzewlnGb+tSwCgvVJn 1hkd3YlgdOT8gqrdp2zwdtU= =q9cj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Cory K. wrote: Just wondering. Do any of you know how this is technically implemented and what it could possibly effect? -Cory K. Well, it depends on what you want to do. If the point is just to change the menu layout and labels , it only affect gnome-menus. But to change an entry like systemAdministrationPrinting, it affects the concerned application. So it's easier to change the layout than all the entries. wattazoum -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) wrote: Anyway, do we validate Preferences to Your Preferences ? I'd say My preferences, as Remco argued few mails before: Those are different things. Those tool tips are like a teacher directly speaking to you. But the text in programs is about the data. Think about a program that let's you create a diary. You'd call it My Diary because you are creating it for yourself. You're not creating one for the computer. However, the tool-tips and suggestions would address you as you. That's the computer helping you by talking to you. I approve of his classification, but this will require much work from upstream, and from Ubuntu to merge distro-specific tools into GNOME ones, like it was done for Appearance. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Remco wrote: (I could've sworn that I hit Reply to All... oh well, I'm sorry for the double emails to you, Greg. ) I sent the following to Greg an hour ago: I think that a simple renaming or merging isn't going to fix this. The complete configuration system has to be thought out. Someone configuring his computer doesn't want to choose between 30 items in each list. But he doesn't want to choose between 30 items in one list either. He just wants to configure his: * Personal Info - timezone, language, About Me * Display - resolution, appearance, screensaver, power saving, etc * Sound - which system, which sounds, recording * Input - mouse, keyboard, joystick, head tracker, whatever * Printers - anything and everything * Peripheral Devices - iPod, Zune, PalmOS, syncing, etc * Network Connectivity - IR, Bluetooth, Wifi, Ethernet, Proxy, samba, nfs * Security - Users/Groups, Keyring, Firewall, Anti-virus Any information, like System Monitor, Hardware Information and System Log, should move outside the options menus. You're not changing any settings with those. Package Management doesn't need to be there either. It has a nice icon under the Applications menu. An advanced button will suffice for that. It's not really a setting anyway, so it shouldn't be where it is now. Maybe another configuration applet is needed: Storage. With things like indexing, backups, restore points, partition management and maybe even defragmentation. But Ubuntu is lacking a bit with backups, restore points and defragmentation. (hoping not to start a defragmentation on linux flame war) Thank you for this constructive comment. Technically speaking, it'll be very hard to have every section GUIs merged into one (as those are different applications). So there is 2 solutions I see : - Using sub menu for section : System ` configuration | - Personal Info | | - timezone | | - language | ` - About Me | - Display | | - resolution | | - appearance | ` - screensaver | - Sound | - Input | - Printers | - Peripheral Devices | - Network Connectivity | - Security ` - Disks and Storage | - Backup | - Partition Editor ` - Maintenance - using some /mini control center Guis/ by section : System ` configuration | - Personal Info | - Display | - Sound | - Input | - Printers | - Peripheral Devices | - Network Connectivity | - Security ` - Disks and Storage Some feelings about these ideas ? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) wrote: Cory K. wrote: Just wondering. Do any of you know how this is technically implemented and what it could possibly effect? -Cory K. Well, it depends on what you want to do. If the point is just to change the menu layout and labels , it only affect gnome-menus. But to change an entry like systemAdministrationPrinting, it affects the concerned application. So it's easier to change the layout than all the entries. wattazoum IMO, this will need much work/testing before it's considered for Ubuntu. (notice there's been no real official interest) So I would create a package named ubuntu-alt-menu (or something) to have people test. Ubuntu Studio has played with the SoundVideo menu to create 2 sub-menus. Maybe what we've done can be used as an example for you. https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-menu -Cory K. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Dear gnome developers and Users, We are having on ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list a discussion about refactoring the gnome menu layout. To have more information on the subject of this discussion, please have a look at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/174277 So I the point is, I like the idea below. Removing the *Preferences* and *Adminstration* menu and replacing them with a single menu *Configuration* with a set of submenus. Can you give me your opinion on this ? Best Regards, wattazoum ps: Please keep the others mailing list in copy. If you don't want to subscribe to those list, please look at the video here http://wattazoum.fr/Optimised-usage-of-Ubuntu-mailing.html to use NNTP with gmane. Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) wrote: Remco wrote: (I could've sworn that I hit Reply to All... oh well, I'm sorry for the double emails to you, Greg. ) I sent the following to Greg an hour ago: I think that a simple renaming or merging isn't going to fix this. The complete configuration system has to be thought out. Someone configuring his computer doesn't want to choose between 30 items in each list. But he doesn't want to choose between 30 items in one list either. He just wants to configure his: * Personal Info - timezone, language, About Me * Display - resolution, appearance, screensaver, power saving, etc * Sound - which system, which sounds, recording * Input - mouse, keyboard, joystick, head tracker, whatever * Printers - anything and everything * Peripheral Devices - iPod, Zune, PalmOS, syncing, etc * Network Connectivity - IR, Bluetooth, Wifi, Ethernet, Proxy, samba, nfs * Security - Users/Groups, Keyring, Firewall, Anti-virus Any information, like System Monitor, Hardware Information and System Log, should move outside the options menus. You're not changing any settings with those. Package Management doesn't need to be there either. It has a nice icon under the Applications menu. An advanced button will suffice for that. It's not really a setting anyway, so it shouldn't be where it is now. Maybe another configuration applet is needed: Storage. With things like indexing, backups, restore points, partition management and maybe even defragmentation. But Ubuntu is lacking a bit with backups, restore points and defragmentation. (hoping not to start a defragmentation on linux flame war) Thank you for this constructive comment. Technically speaking, it'll be very hard to have every section GUIs merged into one (as those are different applications). So there is 2 solutions I see : - Using sub menu for section : System ` configuration | - Personal Info | | - timezone | | - language | ` - About Me | - Display | | - resolution | | - appearance | ` - screensaver | - Sound | - Input | - Printers | - Peripheral Devices | - Network Connectivity | - Security ` - Disks and Storage | - Backup | - Partition Editor ` - Maintenance - using some /mini control center Guis/ by section : System ` configuration | - Personal Info | - Display | - Sound | - Input | - Printers | - Peripheral Devices | - Network Connectivity | - Security ` - Disks and Storage Some feelings about these ideas ? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 10:37 PM, Cory K. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just wondering. Do any of you know how this is technically implemented and what it could possibly effect? I found this article to be gold: http://www.ndeschildre.net/2008/03/14/some-thoughts-on-ubuntu-brainstorm (sorry for mailing you again Cory, didn't have the link handy) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) wrote: Thank you for this constructive comment. Technically speaking, it'll be very hard to have every section GUIs merged into one (as those are different applications). So there is 2 solutions I see : - Using sub menu for section : System ` configuration | - Personal Info | | - timezone | | - language | ` - About Me | - Display | | - resolution | | - appearance | ` - screensaver | - Sound | - Input | - Printers | - Peripheral Devices | - Network Connectivity | - Security ` - Disks and Storage | - Backup | - Partition Editor ` - Maintenance - using some /mini control center Guis/ by section : System ` configuration | - Personal Info | - Display | - Sound | - Input | - Printers | - Peripheral Devices | - Network Connectivity | - Security ` - Disks and Storage Some feelings about these ideas ? It looks nice. My personal view as a user is that menus are 'slow'. The restructuring ideas you guys suggest will certainly speed things up (navigating your way across menu options), but they will still be slow. I don't use menus. First thing I do after a fresh install is remove the menu applet. I rely solely on semantic search using deskbar. Deskbar is by no means perfect, but it's much faster finding what you need, from launching applications to those obscure configuration tools. It's nice to get the menus 'cleaned up', but if something really needs attention is semantic search across the entire desktop. If well thought and designed, something like deskbar can become really powerful. But since we are talking about menus, wouldn't it be cool if by typing in it starts filtering out irrelevant options ? (with a little text-box, like the one appearing in nautilus for instance). regards, Ioannis -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
On Sat, 2008-03-15 at 11:19 +0100, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) wrote: You'd call it My Diary because you are creating it for yourself. The user doesn't label the Preferences menu for themself—the label is applied by the computer. “My” is only ever used to mean “your” on toys for three-year-olds*, much like how when talking to a small child one refers to things using the name *they* should use to refer to them (for example calling yourself “Mummy” or “Daddy” instead of “me”). Small children aren't clever enough to understand pronouns. (* Windows XP—I know.) Speaking for the user—using “my” as if they'd written it—is disingenuous and/or talks down to the user, so it should be avoided. If we could pull in the the user's actual name in a way that's compatible with a wide variety of cultures, I'd suggest using something like “Preferences for Greg”. If that's not possible, just “Preferences” will do—the word “preference” tends to imply *personal* preference anyway. -- Greg K Nicholson -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Ioannis Nousias wrote: Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) wrote: Thank you for this constructive comment. Technically speaking, it'll be very hard to have every section GUIs merged into one (as those are different applications). So there is 2 solutions I see : - Using sub menu for section : System ` configuration | - Personal Info | | - timezone | | - language | ` - About Me | - Display | | - resolution | | - appearance | ` - screensaver | - Sound | - Input | - Printers | - Peripheral Devices | - Network Connectivity | - Security ` - Disks and Storage | - Backup | - Partition Editor ` - Maintenance - using some /mini control center Guis/ by section : System ` configuration | - Personal Info | - Display | - Sound | - Input | - Printers | - Peripheral Devices | - Network Connectivity | - Security ` - Disks and Storage Some feelings about these ideas ? It looks nice. My personal view as a user is that menus are 'slow'. The restructuring ideas you guys suggest will certainly speed things up (navigating your way across menu options), but they will still be slow. I don't use menus. First thing I do after a fresh install is remove the menu applet. I rely solely on semantic search using deskbar. Deskbar is by no means perfect, but it's much faster finding what you need, from launching applications to those obscure configuration tools. It's nice to get the menus 'cleaned up', but if something really needs attention is semantic search across the entire desktop. If well thought and designed, something like deskbar can become really powerful. But since we are talking about menus, wouldn't it be cool if by typing in it starts filtering out irrelevant options ? (with a little text-box, like the one appearing in nautilus for instance). regards, Ioannis It is true that it is faster to launch the application via Deskbar, but to launch it , you need to know exactly what you want to launch. and that's why you have a menu (which needs to be well designed) so that it drives the user to the application he wants. Then once you have seen the name of the menu entry or of the application, you can use Deskbar . The KDE4 menu is, I must admit, very well designed as it combines a Deskbar with a well organized menu. A future project could be to use the same model for gnome. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) wrote: Ioannis Nousias wrote: Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) wrote: Thank you for this constructive comment. Technically speaking, it'll be very hard to have every section GUIs merged into one (as those are different applications). So there is 2 solutions I see : - Using sub menu for section : System ` configuration | - Personal Info | | - timezone | | - language | ` - About Me | - Display | | - resolution | | - appearance | ` - screensaver | - Sound | - Input | - Printers | - Peripheral Devices | - Network Connectivity | - Security ` - Disks and Storage | - Backup | - Partition Editor ` - Maintenance - using some /mini control center Guis/ by section : System ` configuration | - Personal Info | - Display | - Sound | - Input | - Printers | - Peripheral Devices | - Network Connectivity | - Security ` - Disks and Storage Some feelings about these ideas ? It looks nice. My personal view as a user is that menus are 'slow'. The restructuring ideas you guys suggest will certainly speed things up (navigating your way across menu options), but they will still be slow. I don't use menus. First thing I do after a fresh install is remove the menu applet. I rely solely on semantic search using deskbar. Deskbar is by no means perfect, but it's much faster finding what you need, from launching applications to those obscure configuration tools. It's nice to get the menus 'cleaned up', but if something really needs attention is semantic search across the entire desktop. If well thought and designed, something like deskbar can become really powerful. But since we are talking about menus, wouldn't it be cool if by typing in it starts filtering out irrelevant options ? (with a little text-box, like the one appearing in nautilus for instance). regards, Ioannis It is true that it is faster to launch the application via Deskbar, but to launch it , you need to know exactly what you want to launch. and that's why you have a menu (which needs to be well designed) so that it drives the user to the application he wants. Then once you have seen the name of the menu entry or of the application, you can use Deskbar . The KDE4 menu is, I must admit, very well designed as it combines a Deskbar with a well organized menu. A future project could be to use the same model for gnome. On the contrary. Semantic search (and I emphasise the 'semantic' part here) abstracts you from names one might have chosen for an application or option. Again, I'm not implying that semantic search works perfectly in deskbar (in some case it works well). For instance I want to rotate my screen. I should be able to type 'rotate' and greeted with options that can do such an action (hopefully one of them will be the xrandr gui or something like that)*. Continue typing 'screen' or 'display' should further narrow down the options. regards, Ioannis *mind you, this example in deskbar returns 'eog' (thus giving the option to rotate a photo), but not the settings for rotating your screen, which is a shame. We really need powerful semantic search. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
I read what you explained in the bug report, and here are a few remarks. Clarifying the confusion around Preferences Administration is IMHO a good idea, since every base user seems to have problems with it. Naming them User Preferences and System Administration can be nice since it's not too hard to change. Though, notice that the parent menu is already named System, so let's not end up with jokes like Start - Stop in Windows. If in System you have System Administration and User Preferences, this means that User Preferences is not a system setting, and thus should not be there in the menu. This can look like a detail, but IMHO it's important that we think of consistency. These strings are also very long, and may not look nice. Maybe you could simply rename them to User Preferences and Administration, the latter makes it quite clear that we're dealing with hard configuration. Here I don't have a real solution, just some advice. ;-) Please also take care of not doing this change alone - you're aware of that since you asked the list. This should be discussed with GNOME, since they have the same issue. Moreover, PolicyKit is going to add many changes in this domain, and maybe the distinction system-wide/user-only will disappear soon. This will be a real problem while we are migrating, and I'm glad you're caring about this now. Maybe the best solution would be a single Control Center, which already exists. So please see this in a long-term outlook, changes are likely to happen in the newt months. About renaming the configuration items to emphasize (Set and Modify)/(Manage, System, Global), please don't do this! I just managed to remove every piece of unneeded text there, and these expressions are really useless: if the menu description is clear enough, you know what you want to do, and you're just looking for the domain (printing, screen...) you want to configure. Everything else is bloating the menu - and will ask much work that cannot be unified in one package. And a detail: why do you make a so large list of packages to be affected? gnome-menu should be (almost) the only one. Just some (long) thoughts - good luck, it's not an easy issue -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) wrote : Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: I read what you explained in the bug report, and here are a few remarks. Clarifying the confusion around Preferences Administration is IMHO a good idea, since every base user seems to have problems with it. Naming them User Preferences and System Administration can be nice since it's not too hard to change. Though, notice that the parent menu is already named System, so let's not end up with jokes like Start - Stop in Windows. If in System you have System Administration and User Preferences, this means that User Preferences is not a system setting, and thus should not be there in the menu. This can look like a detail, but IMHO it's important that we think of consistency. These strings are also very long, and may not look nice. Maybe you could simply rename them to User Preferences and Administration, the latter makes it quite clear that we're dealing with hard configuration. Here I don't have a real solution, just some advice. ;-) I thought about renaming Preferences to My Preferences because User preferences might be a very long label for some language. Good idea - this should not raise any issues and would help much. This is quite like My Yahoo or other services, people will understand that at the first glance. Just propose it to upstream GNOME. Please also take care of not doing this change alone - you're aware of that since you asked the list. This should be discussed with GNOME, since they have the same issue. Moreover, PolicyKit is going to add many changes in this domain, and maybe the distinction system-wide/user-only will disappear soon. This will be a real problem while we are migrating, and I'm glad you're caring about this now. Maybe the best solution would be a single Control Center, which already exists. So please see this in a long-term outlook, changes are likely to happen in the newt months. This is indeed true. I remember the Gnome Control Center were introduced to replace those two menu sets in feisty then removed after a few days. I think the reason was that a lot of people found that it was slower to access a menu item this way. I was a supporter of an option so that advanced users can use menus, but this idea was not very popular. It's true that the default UI should suit every need we can imagine, but meanwhile, both needs seem difficult to satisfy. A more professional solution would be to merge the configurations GUIs and use policy kit to hide System Wide tasks. But this takes time. I am really wondering if we shouldn't study this solution. Have a single GUI for Printing but hide some options using policy kit ... I'll think more clearly about this and I shall write here :-) I'm not sure we'll be able to hide all system tasks and merge all tools. There are some that only deal with system settings (log viewer, software tools...) and others with the desktop (menu prefs, energy, preferred programs...); others are distro-specific system tools and thus cannot be merged (easily) with GNOME prefs. We can try to make them the less numerous possible, though. Cheers -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Hi! I think it's weird in itself that the configuration menu is as important as the applications or places menus are. In a well running system the user is basically never exposed to any settings, so (although this should be discussed with GNOME) I would rather opt for hiding the whole System menu somewhere. But even if it's there, I would propose the following renaming: System-Configuration/Preferences Preferences-Your Preferences (as I agree with Greg) Administration-System configuration V On 14/03/2008, Greg K Nicholson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2008-03-14 at 20:45 +0100, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) wrote : I thought about renaming Preferences to My Preferences because User preferences might be a very long label for some language. Good idea - this should not raise any issues and would help much. This is quite like My Yahoo or other services, people will understand that at the first glance. Just propose it to upstream GNOME. If anything, it should be Your Preferences: the computer is speaking to the user, not vice-versa. The help tips for several items in the main menu already use your, including Places → Home Folder, Places → Desktop and – bizarrely – System → Preferences → About Me. -- Greg K Nicholson -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) a écrit : I like the proposal. Moving from System | - Preferences ` - Administration to Configuration | - Your Preferences ` - System Administration Is every one okay with this one ? To me it's seems clearer: *Configuration* is more generic and correct regarding the sub menu items than *System* ( which seems more linked to the system Administration than to the User Desktop configuration ). You forget one detail: System is not only for configuration, else this menu would not exist. It has definitely been carefully chosen. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Milan Bouchet-Valat a écrit : Ouattara Oumar Aziz (alias wattazoum) a écrit : I like the proposal. Moving from System | - Preferences ` - Administration to Configuration | - Your Preferences ` - System Administration Is every one okay with this one ? To me it's seems clearer: *Configuration* is more generic and correct regarding the sub menu items than *System* ( which seems more linked to the system Administration than to the User Desktop configuration ). You forget one detail: System is not only for configuration, else this menu would not exist. It has definitely been carefully chosen. Oups, you got me :-p ( I completely forgot the others items under this menu ) *Configuration* is not good and *System* seems to fit better to this entry. Maybe there is no easy solution to this problem than refactoring the whole menu :-/ ( rethinking the whole menu layout ) Anyway, do we validate Preferences to Your Preferences ? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 7:28 PM, Remco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe another configuration applet is needed: Storage. With things like indexing, backups, restore points, partition management and maybe even defragmentation. But Ubuntu is lacking a bit with backups, restore points and defragmentation. (hoping not to start a defragmentation on linux flame war) Well, there aren't any ext3 defrag tools anyway (ok maybe a few userspace ones, but that seems unusual), so we can avoid *that* bit of the argument, but there is NTFS support, and that definitely *does* need to be defragged. -- Mackenzie Morgan Linux User #432169 ACM Member #3445683 http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com -my blog of Ubuntu stuff apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
On 15/03/08 10:33, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: Well, there aren't any ext3 defrag tools anyway (ok maybe a few userspace ones, but that seems unusual), so we can avoid *that* bit of the argument, but there is NTFS support, and that definitely *does* need to be defragged. You don't mean formatted perhaps ;-) -- Onno Benschop Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 2:33 AM, Mackenzie Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, there aren't any ext3 defrag tools anyway (ok maybe a few userspace ones, but that seems unusual), so we can avoid *that* bit of the argument, but there is NTFS support, and that definitely *does* need to be defragged. Yeah, it's weird. NTFS does fragment a deal more than any Unix filesystem I know, but Unix filesystems still fragment! Quite a bit, too, if you have only 1% of free space like I always seem to have. ;-) The question of course, is: does that make filesystem operations much slower? I don't have any hard data on that. Just a gut-feeling that says Yes. But maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it. It's not really the point of my post, which was to present my take on a logical collection of configuration applets. With less than 10 very distinctive options, someone is going to be able to make the choice much easier. Imagine someone thinking: I want to change my screen resolution. Oh, there's the Appearance menu. Well, that must have something to do with the screen, so it would probably be there, right? Wrong! Ok, but now I've found it: Screen Resolution! Oh crap, it doesn't list my LCD's native resolution. Some people might make it all the way to System → Administration → Screens Graphics, but I guess most people will have given up by now. Compare that to: I want to change my screen resolution. Oh, there is Display. That seems to be the only sensible place to put this option. And there is the tab Resolution. Oh crap, it doesn't list his native resolution. Oh well, let's try Advanced. Yay, there it is! Something like that. I haven't really thought it through that much. I'm sure there are better ways to organise the complete system configuration. But this list of 30 applets (yes, 30!) just has to go. Even MS Vista, with its many Centers has a less daunting configuration system. No flame intended for the one that originally introduced these menus. It has grown a lot with all those new graphical configuration applets. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 3:37 AM, Cory K. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just wondering. Do any of you know how this is technically implemented and what it could possibly effect? -Cory K. I browsed a bit through my filesystem, and it seems like the menu consists of a bunch of files in /usr/share/menu. The applets itself are just programs that change config files. So basically, this affects all those programs (or rather, about 10 new ones that steal a lot of code from the old ones) and the files in that directory. There is also this new PolicyKit feature of Hardy, which actually makes these changes feasible. What it could éffect is a very easy to use configuration system, and more importantly: happy users! ;-) Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
