Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Sunday Meetings (was: US still alive !)

[Thomas Pfundt]

On April 3, 2018 8:34 PM, Erich Eickmeyer  wrote: 
> Unfortunately. 10:00 (PDT) is a horrible time for me. I work for a church 
> (specifically, audio & video production) and am eyeballs deep in services 
> at that time. If there is another day at the same time, I’m pretty open for 
> that. 
 
On April 3, 2018 9:23 PM, Len Ovens  wrote: 
> I am in a similar position, I need to be out the door 15-20 mins before 
> that time and won't be back till 3 hours later at the earliest, 6 if my 
> wife is working and needs to be picked up. 
 
Well, okay. That's not going to work out. How does Saturday sound, then? Same 
time? 

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[ubuntu-studio-devel] 18.04 & Beta

[Erich Eickmeyer]

Hi everyone,

18.04’s release is fast approaching, and Final Beta is literally 2 days away. 
With that in mind, what all needs to be done before either of these milestones? 
If there’s a lot to be done, we might end up hitting the beta late, but we 
really need to be pushing toward the release on April 26th

Granted, I’m a bit of a newcomer, but I really wish I had been involved sooner. 
Now that I’m here, I just want to help move us forward and get this going. Does 
anybody have a list of any pressing “to-do” items? If so, how can we facilitate 
this?

Thanks,
Erich



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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Sunday Meetings (was: US still alive !)

[Len Ovens]

On Tue, 3 Apr 2018, Erich Eickmeyer wrote:


For the Record: Thomas kindly suggested the following time:


I'll just suggest now that we schedule a meeting every Sunday at
19:00 UTC. (21:00 CEST in Stockholm, Berlin, Paris, Madrid; 20:00 BST
in London; 13:00 EDT in New York, Toronto; 10:00 PDT in Los Angeles,
Vancouver.)


Len: if you'd be interested in joining, I hope it's not early for you?


Unfortunately. 10:00 (PDT) is a horrible time for me. I work for a 
church (specifically, audio & video production) and am eyeballs deep in 
services at that time. If there is another day at the same time, I’m 
pretty open for that.


I am in a similar position, I need to be out the door 15-20 mins before 
that time and won't be back till 3 hours later at the earliest, 6 if my 
wife is working and needs to be picked up.


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Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Sunday Meetings (was: US still alive !)

[Erich Eickmeyer]

> On Apr 3, 2018, at 10:38 AM, Set Hallstrom  wrote:
> 
> For the Record: Thomas kindly suggested the following time:
> 
>> I'll just suggest now that we schedule a meeting every Sunday at
>> 19:00 UTC. (21:00 CEST in Stockholm, Berlin, Paris, Madrid; 20:00 BST
>> in London; 13:00 EDT in New York, Toronto; 10:00 PDT in Los Angeles,
>> Vancouver.)
> 
> Len: if you'd be interested in joining, I hope it's not early for you?
> 
> @everyone that joined recently and whom i don't know the time-zone for,
> feel free to chip on what time suits you best. :)
> 
> 
> --
> Set Sakrecoer
> 
> --
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Unfortunately. 10:00 (PDT) is a horrible time for me. I work for a church 
(specifically, audio & video production) and am eyeballs deep in services at 
that time. If there is another day at the same time, I’m pretty open for that.

Erich


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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] US still alive !

[eylul]

One of the biggest advantages of moving to mate would be being able to
use (and possibly adapt) the software center. Also it could help us
dodge the issues with menus. (hopefully? maybe?) It also seems that we
have people here who are also active on that side of the project which
is good! :) I remember it not being very flexible, but it could be a
compromise for polish, and as it is a relatively new project hopefully
flexibility will come as the project matures.

As for KDE as someone who is using KDE packages on top of UbuntuStudio I
can give some opinions on it.

I would love to see KDE as a possible desktop for ubuntustudio. It is
aesthethically nice. Widgets are very useful. It has quite a few tools I
use as an artist including the gwenview, and its file manager that is
able to view raws and krita files etc, as well as giving a GUI interface
to symlinking. It comes with a mobile phone synching tool. That being
said. I have had more crashes on it than I had on XFCE. I am also
running into some odd cursor scaling issues with high-res screen, but
honestly HI-DPI can still have issues on many of the desktop
environments. In short, as someone who has used KDE on top of
UbuntuStudio for at least a year, I am a bit cautious about recommending
a switch to KDE as default DE. (on my backup laptop I have XFCE with
some KDE tools like gwenview installed, that seems to be a slightly more
stable solution to maintain at least some of the advantages) KDE has
come a long way through so I am very curious to see where the project goes.

As for XFCE4 the human readable configuration is nice from a power user
level. I personally like that (and to this date, it is the only desktop
environment I created theme elements for, for this reason :) ) but at
the same time is that accessible to our current userbase? Is this
accessible to the userbase we aim to reach out at for this to be a
consideration? Or is a more beginner friendly approach to this (with
less choice as compromise, the way some of the other desktop
environments go with) the better suited to our audience? What about the
audience we try to reach out to? How much does the ability of configure
using commandline and human readable files bring as benefit to the
people it is accessible to? I don't think the answer to these questions
are straightforward in our case.

I do agree with the issue of switching desktop environment as this will
break workflow for people, so this is definitely a very strong argument
on favor of staying with XFCE. I am not saying we shouldn't consider
doing it at all, but it isn't something we should not do lightly or
often. I would even put out a post about the intent to do that as with
requesting input before finalizing the decision if we decide to go that
route.

Also as a historical context, one of the discussions we had in past was
to make ubuntustudio packages desktop environment agnostic, and allowing
to chose on install. Ubuntustudio is the only ubuntu flavor that is not
structured around a desktop environment. This puts us into an
interesting position.  Installing a new desktop environment on top of
existing ubuntustudio not hard but cleaning the old one is nearly
impossible. Could we somehow make this process easier? On one hand it
would be really nice to have the ability to give the option to people
(with one default) but on other hand this can easily turn into a support
headache. Still something to think about. :)

Best

Eylul


On 04/03/2018 07:32 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 16:09:24 -0700, Erich Eickmeyer wrote:
>> My proposal would be to move from Xfce to MATE
> Ubuntu Mate is pretty good these days. It's the distro and desktop
> environment I would recommend to users who want something working OOTB
> for mailing, browsing and office work and who don't want to go further
> into Linux. Actually I'm using Ubuntu Mate 17.10 from a DVD to
> backup my Ubuntu and Arch Linux installs and all my data. When making
> backups I test different live media from time to time and Ubuntu Mate is
> one of the better, if not the best OOTB working Linux.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, I'm using openbox only for my installs.
>
> I'm aware that for Xfce4 changed a lot within the last years. I once
> used it myself and for good reasons stopped using it. However, there is
> one good reason to stay with Xfce4, as long as it shouldn't become
> buggy, bloated or should suffer seriously from anything else.
>
> Users who decided to install Ubuntu Studio are used to Xfce4, migrating
> to another desktop environment does break their workflow and it would
> be tricky to run do-release-upgrade.
>
> Users who want Ubuntu Studio with another desktop environment or just a
> window manager such as openbox, could install another Ubuntu flavour,
> even use the server image and install the desired meta-packages, see
> https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=ubuntustudio=names=artful=all
>  .
>
> Secondarily one benefit of Xfce4 perhaps still is, that it 

Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] US still alive !

[Thomas Pfundt]

Hi everyone, 
 
regarding the get-together: I've had great experiences in past projects with 
regular, weekly meetings to discuss progress, issues, ask questions or even 
just talk a little off-topic, if IRC allows for this. 
 
I'll just suggest now that we schedule a meeting every Sunday at 19:00 UTC. 
(21:00 CEST in Stockholm, Berlin, Paris, Madrid; 20:00 BST in London; 13:00 EDT 
in New York, Toronto; 10:00 PDT in Los Angeles, Vancouver.) 
 
Is there someone here for whom this wouldn't work under any circumstances 
because of work, family business or for any other reason? Of course, there will 
be occasions on which each of us won't be able to attend at all or join in via 
mobile, but would this be feasible, in general? Or does someone have a better 
suggestion? 
 
If everyone's fine with this, I'd like to meet up starting this sunday (8th 
April). I'll try to compose a list of topics and keep track of what's going on 
to get the ball rolling. 
 
 
On April 3, 2018 6:32 AM, Ralf Mardorf  wrote: 
> Ubuntu Mate is pretty good these days. [...] However, there is 
> one good reason to stay with Xfce4, as long as it shouldn't become 
> buggy, bloated or should suffer seriously from anything else. 
>  
> [...] Users who decided to install Ubuntu Studio are used to Xfce4, 
> migrating to another desktop environment does break their workflow 
> and it would be tricky to run do-release-upgrade. 
 
I've used Unity, KDE, Xfce, LXDE and the "new" GNOME in their respective Ubuntu 
environments in the past and while I got to know Ubuntu Studio with Xfce and I 
personally enjoy it the most, aesthetically, I have to say that it does suffer 
from certain issues. 
 
More than once have people opened threads on the mailing lists asking for help, 
because their whisker-menu categories and entries disappeared (happened to me 
multiple times as well) and Thunar is also not entirely stable when 
renaming/moving files. 
 
Then, there's the issue of screen tearing by default. Of course, this can be 
easily fixed by installing a compositor with Vsync, but for someone new, that 
can be quite a stretch, especially if they aren't even able to identify the 
cause of the problem. 
 
I've never used MATE or GNOME 2, but I've just had a look at the Ubuntu MATE 
desktop and it seems quite customisable and relatively similar to Xfce in many 
ways, so if that would solve some issues, maybe it's worth a thought. To 
circumvent a couple of problems, I've installed Nautilus/dconf-tools, the Gnome 
Terminal, gedit and Compiz anyway at this point, so I kind of run a bastardised 
stock Xfce/Gnome environment as is, but that doesn't have to work out for 
everyone, of course. 

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Attention

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:10:05 +0200, Set Hallstrom wrote:
>This said, Ralf you are _not_ helping here.

You are the lead, so feel free to decide to add wallpapers and tons of
unmaintained and untested packages and also migrate to a new desktop
environment. Welcome new people to your team who introduce "ideas",
without getting their hands dirty in the first place, without an ear
for the real users in the first place, in short, without questioning
why a standard should be observed, even during hard times.

Feel free to blame me for knowing what I know and for volunteering on
Ubuntu flavour users mailing lists.

If your team is missing manpower, then it is no good idea to insult
knowledgable users and to welcome users with quixotic ideas.

Euphoria isn't the same as involvement.

There's a big difference between users who participate in reporting to
upstream, in providing help after listening to users and those with an
euphoric idea, based on their individual experiences underpinned by
ominous articles, without ever getting their hands dirty and without
even the most basic understanding.

Don't forget to set the moderation bit again, for mails sent from my
account!

It's no good idea to prick additional holes in a sinking ship, if your
aim actually is to save the ship.

Short steps are better at the moment, even while giant steps is an
amazing piece of musical history,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30FTr6G53VU :). However, before we are
able to interpret such music in our own style, we need to get our hands
dirty by learning the basics of music. Euphoric ideas without skills
lead to absolutely nothing.

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[ubuntu-studio-devel] Attention

[Set Hallstrom]

First of all, Please. Chill. Out.

Everyone. (including me)

This said, Ralf you are _not_ helping here. You're welcome to assist new
users, but as long as you keep grinding that tone: you are *not*
helping. We know you know your stuff. Cool! If you want to participate
with development: be considerate. Otherwise, hands off the devel-list.

I will however ask /everyone/ to stick to that too: reacting to
whomever's clumsy (if not intentional) ways, is _not_ helping. There
will always be someone to nurture the negativity. Don't give them the
space for it.

I am afraid i am currently not equipped with the mental health necessary
to moderate the discussion in any other constructive way the this. I
don't ask you to understand but this means if you want things to happen,
you are going to have to moderate yourselves.

Second of all, I've been told there is no need for signing the CoC. It
was the first thing i was asked, and i adhere to it. I think it is a
good way to signal that you have at least read it and agree with it. But
as it seems, is not necessary. I apologize if that wasted your time, and
I know your time is precious, believe me.

Thank you for your attention, have a good day.

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Set Hallstrom aka sakrecoer



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