Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
At 14:11 15-01-2001 -0800, John Jenkins wrote: > >On Monday, January 15, 2001, at 01:09 PM, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >> >> Besides, the name of an international standard will be pronounced >> internationally. >> > >Why? I don't pronounce "Paris" the way the French do. Why should I >expect people from other countries to pronounce "Unicode" the way I do? That's exactly what I said. Unicode as an international standard will be pronounced internationally: Speakers of each language will have their own pronunciation, and some will even spell it differently. Adam --- Whiz Kid Technomagic - brand name computers for less. See http://www.whizkidtech.net/pcwarehouse/ for details.
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
At 13:26 15-01-2001 -0800, Alain LaBonté wrote: >Latin is still spoken in Rome, at the Vatican. > >So there is a Roman pronunciation even today... (; Actually, everyone in the Vatican uses whatever pronunciation he learned back in his home country. I am a graduate of Canon Law Department at Gregorian University (the last pontifical school in Rome that still has all lectures in Latin). One of the challenges I had to face was to understand all the different flavors of Latin my professors used: Some were Italian, some German, some Spanish, one Belgian, etc. They all pronounced Latin differently. Not to mention one of my professors, an Italian, used the word "ipse" all the time. It took me two months to realize he was unable to speak without the use of a definite article. He used "ipse" in Latin where he would use "il" in Italian. He also used to say "secundum Ops" and I kept wondering who Ops was. Then I finally realized he was talking about Hobbes. Adam --- Whiz Kid Technomagic - brand name computers for less. See http://www.whizkidtech.net/pcwarehouse/ for details.
Japanese in Arabic , Javanese
Dear Mr. Vance and List: Actually, Japanese is one of the Arabic script exotica mentioned by Alan Kaye in his article in The_world's_ writing_systems. But Javanese is a good suggestion---I wouldn't be surprised if it also had an Arabic-script period between its Indic period and its Roman period. Elaine Keown Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping! http://www.shopping.altavista.com
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
He didn't actually say it: someone joked at a dinner or fundraiser that Dan Quayle had felt guilty that he hadn't studied his Latin upon his visit to Latin America, and the press picked it up as though it were a true report of Quayle's own words. What it says of the man that millions of people believed him capable of saying it, I leave others to decide. I suspect that he was nominated because he reminded GHWB of someone. Patrick Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Tex Texin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 5:27 PM Subject: Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode" > Wasn't it Dan Quayle who said they speak Latin in Latin America? > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > > 1. When I learned Latin in the U.S. in the 1960s, we were taught a > > > > > reconstructed Roman pronunciation. > > > > > > Latin is still spoken in Rome, at the Vatican. > > > > > > So there is a Roman pronunciation even today... (; > > > > > > Just kidding... although what I say is true... > > > > > > Alain > > > > How about a weekly radio news broadcast in Latin? > > > > http://www.yle.fi/ylenykko/nuntii.html (in Finnish :-) > > http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/ (in Latin) > > http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/summary.html (in English) > > -- > According to Murphy, nothing goes according to Hoyle. > -- > Tex Texin Director, International Business > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-781-280-4271 Fax:+1-781-280-4655 > Progress Software Corp.14 Oak Park, Bedford, MA 01730 > > http://www.Progress.com#1 Embedded Database > > Globalization Program > http://www.Progress.com/partners/globalization.htm > -- - >
Re: [ very OT ] why abjad ..? ; list--Arabic script languages
On Mon, Jan 15, 2001 at 01:17:42PM -0800, Jonathan Rosenne wrote: : > 2. YESTERDAY (languages formerly in Arabic) : > Achinese, Adyghe, Albanian, Avar, Bashkir, Chechen, Dargwa, Ingush, : > Japanese, Kaitak, Karakalpak, Kazakh, Khwarezmian, Kubachi, Kumyk, ^ I think somebody means Javanese/Jawi. : > Kurmanji, Kyrgyz, Lak, Lezgian, Malagasy, Maltese, Minangkabau, : > Ottoman Turkish, Serbo-Croatian, Somali, Spanish, Sundanese, Tajik, : > Tatar, Turkmen, Uzbek, Volga Bulgarian, Western Cham, Yoruba. -- Christopher Vance
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
Wasn't it Dan Quayle who said they speak Latin in Latin America? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > 1. When I learned Latin in the U.S. in the 1960s, we were taught a > > > > reconstructed Roman pronunciation. > > > > Latin is still spoken in Rome, at the Vatican. > > > > So there is a Roman pronunciation even today... (; > > > > Just kidding... although what I say is true... > > > > Alain > > How about a weekly radio news broadcast in Latin? > > http://www.yle.fi/ylenykko/nuntii.html (in Finnish :-) > http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/ (in Latin) > http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/summary.html (in English) -- According to Murphy, nothing goes according to Hoyle. -- Tex Texin Director, International Business mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-781-280-4271 Fax:+1-781-280-4655 Progress Software Corp.14 Oak Park, Bedford, MA 01730 http://www.Progress.com#1 Embedded Database Globalization Program http://www.Progress.com/partners/globalization.htm ---
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
On 01/15/2001 04:25:00 AM Michael Everson wrote: >The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa irritates >me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i]. Well, note that it was transcribed not with [i:] but with the open counterpart (IPA symbol 319 rather than 301). That's certainly plausible, perhaps in certain dialects or in careful speech. I have heard some actually say [i] (not [i:]) but as I remember they were not native English speakers (i.e. they had the phonology of another language influencing their pronunciation when speaking English). I agree with Michael that schwa is a probably lot more likely for most speakers, though. - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485 E-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
On Monday, January 15, 2001, at 01:09 PM, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > Besides, the name of an international standard will be pronounced > internationally. > Why? I don't pronounce "Paris" the way the French do. Why should I expect people from other countries to pronounce "Unicode" the way I do? Heck, I don't even expect other *English* speakers to pronounce it the way I do. I'm convinced I have a short i in the middle of it.
RE: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
> > > 1. When I learned Latin in the U.S. in the 1960s, we were taught a > > > reconstructed Roman pronunciation. > > Latin is still spoken in Rome, at the Vatican. > > So there is a Roman pronunciation even today... (; > > Just kidding... although what I say is true... > > Alain How about a weekly radio news broadcast in Latin? http://www.yle.fi/ylenykko/nuntii.html (in Finnish :-) http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/ (in Latin) http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/summary.html (in English)
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
À 13:27 2001-01-15 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit: >My argument for the world converging on dutch as the >only language that is written as it is spoke. Vic You really believe that « Schiphol » is written as pronounced ? (; (: Alain __ ifrance.com, l'email gratuit le plus complet de l'Internet ! vos emails depuis un navigateur, en POP3, sur Minitel, sur le WAP... http://www.ifrance.com/_reloc/email.emailif
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
À 11:16 2001-01-15 -0800, P. T. Rourke a écrit: > > Just to expand upon this with data: > > > > 1. When I learned Latin in the U.S. in the 1960s, we were taught a > > reconstructed Roman pronunciation. Latin is still spoken in Rome, at the Vatican. So there is a Roman pronunciation even today... (; Just kidding... although what I say is true... Alain
RE: [ very OT ] why abjad ..? ; list--Arabic script languages
I think that the Turkmen languages in China are also written in the Arabic script. I vaguely remember Kazakh. Jony > -Original Message- > From: Elaine Keown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 9:34 PM > To: Unicode List > Subject: [ very OT ] why abjad ..? ; list--Arabic script languages > > > Hello, > > Below, latest list of Arabic-script languages. Additions > appreciated. Eighteen of these languages are mentioned in Unicode > 3.0 documentation. > > Question for the list: Unicode 3.0 Arabic and most literature in > English lists variant Arabic script alphabets in "abjad" order. Why > was "abjad" order chosen for computer standards instead of "hija'" ? > thanks, Elaine > > ARABIC SCRIPT LANGUAGES > JAN 15, 2001 > 1. TODAY (languages now written in Arabic) > Arabic and: Afrikaans, Azeri--Iran, Balti, Baluchi, Brahui, Chewa, > Dagomba, Dari, Farsi, Fula (Fulfulde, Pulaar), Harari, Hausa-Islamic > literature, Jarma, Kabyle (Berber), Kanuri--Cameroon, Karaite, > Kashmiri, Kituba, Koli, Kurdi (Sorani), Lahnda, Lingala, Luganda, > Luri, Makua, Malinke, Malay--Brunei, Mazanderani, Moplah, > Oromo--Islamic literature, Panjabi--Pakistan, Pashto, Shilha > (Berber), Shona, Sindhi, Siraiki, Songhai, Swahili--Islamic > literature, Tamasheq (Berber), Tamazight (Berber), Tarifit (Rifian), > Tausug (Sulu), Tigre--Islamic literature, Urdu, Uyghur, West > Circassian-Turkey, Wolof, Yakan, Zanugha. > > 2. YESTERDAY (languages formerly in Arabic) > Achinese, Adyghe, Albanian, Avar, Bashkir, Chechen, Dargwa, Ingush, > Japanese, Kaitak, Karakalpak, Kazakh, Khwarezmian, Kubachi, Kumyk, > Kurmanji, Kyrgyz, Lak, Lezgian, Malagasy, Maltese, Minangkabau, > Ottoman Turkish, Serbo-Croatian, Somali, Spanish, Sundanese, Tajik, > Tatar, Turkmen, Uzbek, Volga Bulgarian, Western Cham, Yoruba. > > 3. UNCERTAIN STATUS (minority languages that may be written in Arabic) > Bakhtiari, Bhatneri, Burushaski, Dameli, Deghani, Dhatki, Domari, > Gawar-Bati, Gilaki, Gujari, Hindko, Isneq, Kalami, Kami, Khowar, > Koti, Kumzari, Maranao, Marwari, Ormani, Pashai, Qashqai, Samal, > Shina, Takestani, Tingian, Waigoli, Wanai > > Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping! > http://www.shopping.altavista.com
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
At 06:16 15-01-2001 -0800, Charles wrote: >Michael Everson wrote: > >"The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa irritates >me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i]." > >I beg to differ; "universe" is commonly pronounced with a short [i] in the >English Midlands. Besides, the name of an international standard will be pronounced internationally. For example, my native tongue, Slovak, does not even have the English schwa sound. It would be ridiculous to expect Slovak Unicode users to learn a new phoneme just so they pronounce Unicode properly. They will pronounce it ['uniko:d], like it or not. :) And they will not turn the [o:] into an [ou] (as the English speakers do) either. Plus the [i] will be somewhere halfway between the English [i] and [i:]. I would not be surprised if speakers of certain Slavic languages even changed the SPELLING to Unikod (with an acute over the [o]), as they have done with other imported words (such as futbal for football). This is simply because they follow the write-as-you-hear rule. Insisting that they keep the original spelling would be linguistic imperialism, hardly appropriate for the makers of Unicode. Adam --- Whiz Kid Technomagic - brand name computers for less. See http://www.whizkidtech.net/pcwarehouse/ for details.
RE: [ very OT ] list--Arabic script languages
>ARABIC SCRIPT LANGUAGES >JAN 15, 2001 >1. TODAY (languages now written in Arabic) >Arabic and: Afrikaans, This must be a very marginal use, I personally have never seen it in modern day documents though I know some religious text for the "Malay" community have been written in Arabic in the past. But is this still used presently ? P. Andries
RE: [ very OT ] list--Arabic script languages
>ARABIC SCRIPT LANGUAGES >JAN 15, 2001 >1. TODAY (languages now written in Arabic) >Arabic and: Afrikaans, This must be a very marginal use, I personally have never seen it in modern day documents though I know some religious text for the "Malay" community have been written in Arabic in the past. But is this still used presently ? P. Andries
Re: [ very OT ] why abjad ..? ; list--Arabic script languages
On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Elaine Keown wrote: > 3. UNCERTAIN STATUS (minority languages that may be written in Arabic) > Bakhtiari, Bhatneri, Burushaski, Dameli, Deghani, Dhatki, Domari, > Gawar-Bati, Gilaki, Gujari, Hindko, Isneq, Kalami, Kami, Khowar, Koti, > Kumzari, Maranao, Marwari, Ormani, Pashai, Qashqai, Samal, Shina, > Takestani, Tingian, Waigoli, Wanai >From this list, I know about Bakhtiari, Gilaki, Qashqai, and Takestani. They are not written in anything other than the Arabic script. All native speakers are Iranians, and use a variant of Persian methods for writing. --roozbeh
[ very OT ] why abjad ..? ; list--Arabic script languages
Hello, Below, latest list of Arabic-script languages. Additions appreciated. Eighteen of these languages are mentioned in Unicode 3.0 documentation. Question for the list: Unicode 3.0 Arabic and most literature in English lists variant Arabic script alphabets in "abjad" order. Why was "abjad" order chosen for computer standards instead of "hija'" ? thanks, Elaine ARABIC SCRIPT LANGUAGES JAN 15, 2001 1. TODAY (languages now written in Arabic) Arabic and: Afrikaans, Azeri--Iran, Balti, Baluchi, Brahui, Chewa, Dagomba, Dari, Farsi, Fula (Fulfulde, Pulaar), Harari, Hausa-Islamic literature, Jarma, Kabyle (Berber), Kanuri--Cameroon, Karaite, Kashmiri, Kituba, Koli, Kurdi (Sorani), Lahnda, Lingala, Luganda, Luri, Makua, Malinke, Malay--Brunei, Mazanderani, Moplah, Oromo--Islamic literature, Panjabi--Pakistan, Pashto, Shilha (Berber), Shona, Sindhi, Siraiki, Songhai, Swahili--Islamic literature, Tamasheq (Berber), Tamazight (Berber), Tarifit (Rifian), Tausug (Sulu), Tigre--Islamic literature, Urdu, Uyghur, West Circassian-Turkey, Wolof, Yakan, Zanugha. 2. YESTERDAY (languages formerly in Arabic) Achinese, Adyghe, Albanian, Avar, Bashkir, Chechen, Dargwa, Ingush, Japanese, Kaitak, Karakalpak, Kazakh, Khwarezmian, Kubachi, Kumyk, Kurmanji, Kyrgyz, Lak, Lezgian, Malagasy, Maltese, Minangkabau, Ottoman Turkish, Serbo-Croatian, Somali, Spanish, Sundanese, Tajik, Tatar, Turkmen, Uzbek, Volga Bulgarian, Western Cham, Yoruba. 3. UNCERTAIN STATUS (minority languages that may be written in Arabic) Bakhtiari, Bhatneri, Burushaski, Dameli, Deghani, Dhatki, Domari, Gawar-Bati, Gilaki, Gujari, Hindko, Isneq, Kalami, Kami, Khowar, Koti, Kumzari, Maranao, Marwari, Ormani, Pashai, Qashqai, Samal, Shina, Takestani, Tingian, Waigoli, Wanai Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping! http://www.shopping.altavista.com
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
> Just to expand upon this with data: > > 1. When I learned Latin in the U.S. in the 1960s, we were taught a > reconstructed Roman pronunciation. Before someone asks him how anyone could know how say a 1st c. ce Roman pronounced things, reconstruction can be informed by such things as transliteration of names into Greek by Greek authors, common misspellings, metrical values, etc. It can't be precisely accurate, but it's probably not that far off. BTW, Montaigne's first language was Latin. French was his second language. His father wanted him to know his Latin like a Roman. This is rather like A.K. Ramanujan's (Indian poet's) description of his upbringing: in one floor/wing of the house, only English was allowed; on another floor, only Hindi(?), in a third, only Tamil. . . . Patrick Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
At 08:50 AM 1/15/01, Christopher John Fynn wrote: >Yes, and it was right into the early 20th Century. Even when I was in >school a large percentage of English schoolboys _had_ to learn Latin (- >and in many "public" [private] schools they still do). This included >"spoken" Latin - though I'm sure the pronunciation taught was quite >different than what it was in 55 BCE. Not all that long ago you couldn't >get into many English universities without having studied some Latin. > >In English we still get plenty of scientific names and terms from Latin >and Greek and many of these words eventually come into more common usage. Just to expand upon this with data: 1. When I learned Latin in the U.S. in the 1960s, we were taught a reconstructed Roman pronunciation. 2. In the United States, scientific names of organisms, Latin in form if not actually Latin, are pronounced in a heavily anglicized manner, to the extent that we often give individual training to students who will make presentations at international meetings, so that they might be understood. 3. There are scholarly works outlining the pronunciation of Latin in different parts of Europe during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, for use by musicians who want to achieve historically informed performances of vocal music from that era. -- Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/ Biological Sciences Department Voice: (909) 869-4062 California State Polytechnic University FAX: (909) 869-4078 Pomona CA 91768-4032 USA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
At 06:16 AM 1/15/01, Charles wrote: >Michael Everson wrote: > >"The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa irritates >me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i]." > >I beg to differ; "universe" is commonly pronounced with a short [i] in the >English Midlands. And indeed on this side of the Pond, [i] is common (I find it unnatural to drop my tongue enough for the schwa), and I have heard (iirc) [i:] in the southeastern U.S. -- Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/ Biological Sciences Department Voice: (909) 869-4062 California State Polytechnic University FAX: (909) 869-4078 Pomona CA 91768-4032 USA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: An unexpected sight...
Ar 07:48 -0800 2001-01-15, scríobh John Jenkins: >I thought fellow Unicodettes might get a kick out of this. It is a known >fact, of course, that the exact typographic positioning of accent and >base form can vary between different European languages. Well, I >happened to be listening to a CD in my collection t'other day of music >by an obscure 17th century English composer who bears my name. (His >music is utterly forgettable, BTW.) The CD is recorded by the Kölner >Violen-Consort, with the words in all caps on the album cover and the >umlaut inside the O. > >I cannot help but wonder how common this sort of thing is. It is common enough. It is more common in Sweden than it is in Germany. It was more common in Germany, Sweden, and Estonia earlier this century than it is today. Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland Mob +353 86 807 9169 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Vox +353 1 478 2597 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
Re: An unexpected sight...
Sort of a glyph variant? :-) MichKa Michael Kaplan Trigeminal Software, Inc. http://www.trigeminal.com/ - Original Message - From: "Tobias Hunger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 8:30 AM Subject: Re: An unexpected sight... > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Monday 15 January 2001 16:48, John Jenkins wrote: > > The CD is recorded by the Kölner > > Violen-Consort, with the words in all caps on the album cover and the > > umlaut inside the O. > > > > I cannot help but wonder how common this sort of thing is. > > Hi John! > > I consider this to be a graphical gag. It is not normally used in german > texts. > > - -- > Gruss, > Tobias > > - --- > Tobias Hunger The box said: 'Windows 95 or better' > [EMAIL PROTECTED] So I installed Linux. > - --- > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org > > iD8DBQE6YyriVND+cGpk748RAqKpAJ9d0XtzfuxQAaatCjEE3Pp8SxkqGwCgmOJB > TJHMqltzRpF8MSs0JWZCaU8= > =FBiL > -END PGP SIGNATURE- >
RE: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
Mark Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: > "Marco Cimarosti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I wonder what "directly from Latin" may mean in the case of English. > Because > > of some timing problems, I would say it means: "through direct knowledge > of > > *written* Latin". > There was a period well after the Norman invasion where a large number of > words came into English directly from Latin, which was still in widespread > use among scholars. Yes, and it was right into the early 20th Century. Even when I was in school a large percentage of English schoolboys _had_ to learn Latin (- and in many "public" [private] schools they still do). This included "spoken" Latin - though I'm sure the pronunciation taught was quite different than what it was in 55 BCE. Not all that long ago you couldn't get into many English universities without having studied some Latin. In English we still get plenty of scientific names and terms from Latin and Greek and many of these words eventually come into more common usage. - Chris
Re: An unexpected sight...
On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, John Jenkins wrote: > I thought fellow Unicodettes might get a kick out of this. It is a known > fact, of course, that the exact typographic positioning of accent and > base form can vary between different European languages. Well, I > happened to be listening to a CD in my collection t'other day of music > by an obscure 17th century English composer who bears my name. (His > music is utterly forgettable, BTW.) The CD is recorded by the Kölner > Violen-Consort, with the words in all caps on the album cover and the > umlaut inside the O. > > I cannot help but wonder how common this sort of thing is. One more data point: I too have seen an Umlaut inside the O on the cover of a CD. I asked a german friend about this, and she said it was nothing strange. P.
Re: An unexpected sight...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 15 January 2001 16:48, John Jenkins wrote: > The CD is recorded by the Kölner > Violen-Consort, with the words in all caps on the album cover and the > umlaut inside the O. > > I cannot help but wonder how common this sort of thing is. Hi John! I consider this to be a graphical gag. It is not normally used in german texts. - -- Gruss, Tobias - --- Tobias Hunger The box said: 'Windows 95 or better' [EMAIL PROTECTED] So I installed Linux. - --- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6YyriVND+cGpk748RAqKpAJ9d0XtzfuxQAaatCjEE3Pp8SxkqGwCgmOJB TJHMqltzRpF8MSs0JWZCaU8= =FBiL -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Labanotation
Does anyone here know if Labanotation characters are included in Unicode, or if there are any plans to include them in Unicode in the future? Bev
Re: Labanotation
EnsoCompany <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Does anyone here know if Labanotation characters are included in Unicode, No > or if there are any plans to include them in Unicode in the future? There are currently no plans. A better question might be: can Labanotation be regarded as character data? I thought these were mini-diagrams used to describe ballet or similar motion data, rather than text, so one could argue that support for these might be more appropriate for something like Visio, rather than a font. Brendan
Re: Labanotation
It is not currently encoded, no. It does seem a bit beyond the scope of what Unicode's goals are (in my humble opinion). MichKa Michael Kaplan Trigeminal Software, Inc. http://www.trigeminal.com/ - Original Message - From: "EnsoCompany" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 8:00 AM Subject: Labanotation Does anyone here know if Labanotation characters are included in Unicode, or if there are any plans to include them in Unicode in the future? Bev
An unexpected sight...
I thought fellow Unicodettes might get a kick out of this. It is a known fact, of course, that the exact typographic positioning of accent and base form can vary between different European languages. Well, I happened to be listening to a CD in my collection t'other day of music by an obscure 17th century English composer who bears my name. (His music is utterly forgettable, BTW.) The CD is recorded by the Kölner Violen-Consort, with the words in all caps on the album cover and the umlaut inside the O. I cannot help but wonder how common this sort of thing is.
RE: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
{Notice: way off-topic}
Mark Davis wrote:
> There was a period well after the Norman invasion where a
> large number of words came into English directly from
> Latin, which was still in widespread use among scholars.
Right. And it also was the language of priests, on both sides of the
Channel.
> [ju:] isn't an approximation to the French [y]. There was a
> phase in the development of English called the Great Vowel
> Shift, where certain long vowels shifted back: a => [e:],
> e => [i:], i => [ai], o => [u:] (as in fool, move), u => [ju:].
> I don't remember when this was -- it's been a long time -- but
> I seem to recall that it was a bit before Shakespeare. The
> pronunciation of u in French shifted at some point from [u]
> to [y]; I have no idea when this change happened, or if it
> would have affected the Latin spoken by the English at the time.
> Perhaps someone else knows.
No, sorry. Middle English [u:] normally became modern [au] -- e.g.: "hus"
[hu:s] -> "house" [hauz].
I insist that [ju:] was the English rendering of the alien French phoneme
[y]. The fact that it did not become [jau] simply testifies that most French
words (re-)entered English *after* the GVS was concluded.
Marco
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
On Monday, January 15, 2001, at 06:34 AM, Michael Everson wrote: > The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa > irritates > me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i]. > Then forgive me, Michael, for I have sinned. I just sent in to Mark a Deseret Alphabet transcription that uses [i]. In my defense, I tend to find short, unstressesd vowels hard to tell apart in many English words. I really don't know what vowel I use in "universe." And the DA doesn't have a true schwa symbol, anyway.
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
À 06:16 2001-01-15 -0800, Charles a écrit: Michael Everson wrote: "The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa irritates me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i]." [Charles] I beg to differ; "universe" is commonly pronounced with a short [i] in the English Midlands. [Alain] A "schwa" for an i and an English u to pronounce "Unicode" begins to be extremely different from the pronunciation of "Unicode" in French (as I can't write with the IPA on this list, I will add German "Ünicod" to Marco's "ynicod" to make sure that most of you know how we pronounce it). This word, in its written form, shocks nobody in French (« et ce n'est pas peu dire ! »), even the most bigot and pious purists of the French language... But if you insist that the French speakers pronounce those two letters, it is the contrary, we will have to write the "mandated" IPA prononciation as « Iouneucôde » in French (there is no real "scwha" in French, imho)... Otherwise you create a strong issue in French. Please do not play with pronunciation... Unicode is not a standard about pronunciation, but rather -- and it is where it is an instrument of civilization -- a standard about writing... Writing tends to unite people, spoken languages tend to disunite them... An English speaker with a prefect knowledge of written French who does not pronounce French correctly is absolutely not understood, and the reverse is probably true too. I am a watcher of some American TV programs (mainly sci-fi) on TV, but I have to put subtitles to fully catch what I don't understand (unfortunately there is no subtitle in a meeting where English is spoken, and it is *always* a handicap to me). Please, no official IPA transcription for "Unicode"... Alain LaBonté Québec
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
- Original Message -
From: "Marco Cimarosti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 00:15
Subject: RE: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
> Mark Davis wrote:
> >Much as I admire and appreciate the French language (second only to
> Italian),
> >the proximate derivation of "Unicode" was not from that language, and the
> >transcription should not match the French pronunciation. Instead, it has
> >solid Northern Californian roots (even though not exactly dating from the
> >Gold Rush days).
>
> Of course, my comment about French pronunciation was only partially
serious
> -- I should have added as smiley. But I think that /ynikod/ is the actual
> pronunciation of "Unicode" in French (as opposed to most other European
> language, that simply approximate the English pronunciation). So, as you
> explained that you are listing languages, and that you accept more than
one
> language for each script, you might consider a second IPA example.
The IPA is only in the list as a reference for how to approximate the
pronunciation, not really as a language. Perhaps I should mark it in some
way.
>
> >According to the references I have, the prefix "uni" is directly from
Latin
> >while the word "code" is through French.
>
> I wonder what "directly from Latin" may mean in the case of English.
Because
> of some timing problems, I would say it means: "through direct knowledge
of
> *written* Latin".
There was a period well after the Norman invasion where a large number of
words came into English directly from Latin, which was still in widespread
use among scholars.
>
> A direct derivation from Latin of English "uni-" would imply that, at some
> age, English scholars used to read Latin with a pronunciation influenced
by
> French. In fact, the initial [ju:] is the regular English approximation of
> French vowel [y]. (Is this likely?)
[ju:] isn't an approximation to the French [y]. There was a phase in the
development of English called the Great Vowel Shift, where certain long
vowels shifted back: a => [e:], e => [i:], i => [ai], o => [u:] (as in fool,
move), u => [ju:]. I don't remember when this was -- it's been a long
time -- but I seem to recall that it was a bit before Shakespeare. The
pronunciation of u in French shifted at some point from [u] to [y]; I have
no idea when this change happened, or if it would have affected the Latin
spoken by the English at the time. Perhaps someone else knows.
>
> >The Indo-European would have been *oi-no-kau-do ("give one strike"): *kau
> >apparently being related to [...] caudal, [...]
>
> Wow! So Unicode also means "single tail", after all... What would that be
in
> Chinese? :-)
>
> Marco
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
A wonderful connection: Rick McGowan should be very pleased!!
Mark
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Everson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 02:25
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
Ar 07:28 -0800 2001-01-12, scrobh Mark Davis:
>According to the references I have, the prefix "uni" is directly from
>Latin while the word "code" is through French. The Indo-European would
>have been *oi-no-kau-do ("give one strike"): *kau apparently being related
>to such English words as: hew, haggle, hoe, hag, hay, hack, caudad,
>caudal, caudate, caudex, coda, codex, codicil, coward, incus, and KovaÄ
>(personal name: 'smith'). I will leave the exact derivations to the
>exegetes, but I like the association with "haggle" myself.
I am not in the presence of my dictionaries (being on a train from Oxford
to Slough where I am about to meet Maurice Bauhahn and John Okell to
discuss the sorting order of Khmer and Myanmar over lunch) but I believe
also related to this root *kau may be the Irish "gabhann" 'smith', found in
the name "Mac Gabhainn", anglicized as "McGowan"
>The stress is definitely on the first syllable. One does hear some normal
>generative English variations such as ËjunÉËkoËd. (schwa instead of
>short-i),
The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa irritates
me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i].
Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
15 Port Chaeimhghein êochtarach; Baile çtha Cliath 2; ire/Ireland
Mob +353 86 807 9169 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Vox +353 1 478 2597
27 Pirc an Fhithlinn; Baile an Bhthair; Co. çtha Cliath; ire
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
Michael Everson wrote: "The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa irritates me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i]." I beg to differ; "universe" is commonly pronounced with a short [i] in the English Midlands. Charles Cox
Re: [OT] Close to latin
Carl W. Brown wrote: > > Because Brazil produces a large number of TV programming and Movies the > Iberian language is being influenced by the Brazilian idioms. But Brazilian TV and movies that are given in the rest of Latin America are translated to Spanish, they are not left in Portuguese, are they? > Some Portuguese has even been borrowed from French such as the pronoun for > the third person. That I cannot understand. There are a number of pronoun for the third person: - nominative (il/elle/ils/elles) - nomitative with emphasis (lui/eux) - accusative (le/la/les) - reflexive (se) - dative (lui/leur) etc. Most of them are in straight line from Roman/Latin, and appear in similar form in the other Romance languages. > However, Catalan is another candidate if it were not spoken by > a small number of people. Catalan is by many ways an archaic language. Furthermore, there is a notable difference between the written form (which is stable) and the spocken form (which enjoys important variations, and the way it is spocken in Barcelona is by no mean the most alike to the written form). Due to political reasons, it is *not* advisable as a lingua franca in Spain (this is like if you ask Canada to unify on speaking French...) And while my Catalan-speaking friends do understand Italian without too much effort, the reverse is not that easy, so I think that they are more helped by their proper bi-linguism than by any proper feature of Catalan. As you note, the number of present speakers is a key feature. That is a big point for English, of course. Antoine
Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
Ar 07:28 -0800 2001-01-12, scrobh Mark Davis:
>According to the references I have, the prefix "uni" is directly from
>Latin while the word "code" is through French. The Indo-European would
>have been *oi-no-kau-do ("give one strike"): *kau apparently being related
>to such English words as: hew, haggle, hoe, hag, hay, hack, caudad,
>caudal, caudate, caudex, coda, codex, codicil, coward, incus, and KovaÄ
>(personal name: 'smith'). I will leave the exact derivations to the
>exegetes, but I like the association with "haggle" myself.
I am not in the presence of my dictionaries (being on a train from Oxford
to Slough where I am about to meet Maurice Bauhahn and John Okell to
discuss the sorting order of Khmer and Myanmar over lunch) but I believe
also related to this root *kau may be the Irish "gabhann" 'smith', found in
the name "Mac Gabhainn", anglicized as "McGowan"
>The stress is definitely on the first syllable. One does hear some normal
>generative English variations such as ËjunÉËkoËd. (schwa instead of
>short-i),
The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa irritates
me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i].
Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
15 Port Chaeimhghein êochtarach; Baile çtha Cliath 2; ire/Ireland
Mob +353 86 807 9169 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Vox +353 1 478 2597
27 Pirc an Fhithlinn; Baile an Bhthair; Co. çtha Cliath; ire
RE: Font help
Ar 14:19 +0900 2001-01-15, scríobh SATO Takayuki: >After busy 90 days, I have started to clean up my e-mail. > >For attached message, as far as I recall of, Someone in Information Science >department in Hokkando-Univ. Japan has been working on this issue. >But I do not know any beyond it. Just I saw a demonstration, and comments >>from audience? were not positive because "movement" of the picture were so >unnatural. SignWriting is used with children in Nicaragua in Deaf schools. These children learn Nicaraguan Sign Language as their first communicative language, and SignWriting as their first written language. They are subsequently able to learn to read Spanish far more easily, because they are literate in their own language. So I guess some Deaf people themselves don't find it so unnatural >Japanese Sign Language uses fingerspelling of the syllabary. See >http://www.egt.ie/standards/sgn/sgn-kana-chart.pdf for what it looks like. > >I need to make a font -- not a Unicode font -- that will work on an >ordinary Japanese OS (Mac, PC, whatever) which will have no kanji in it >whatsoever, but which will have the fingerspelling signs in positions for >katakana and hiragana such that text written in them can be read by >switching fonts. > >I have no idea how I should encode such a font. Help? Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland Mob +353 86 807 9169 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Vox +353 1 478 2597 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
RE: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
Mark Davis wrote:
>Much as I admire and appreciate the French language (second only to
Italian),
>the proximate derivation of "Unicode" was not from that language, and the
>transcription should not match the French pronunciation. Instead, it has
>solid Northern Californian roots (even though not exactly dating from the
>Gold Rush days).
Of course, my comment about French pronunciation was only partially serious
-- I should have added as smiley. But I think that /ynikod/ is the actual
pronunciation of "Unicode" in French (as opposed to most other European
language, that simply approximate the English pronunciation). So, as you
explained that you are listing languages, and that you accept more than one
language for each script, you might consider a second IPA example.
>According to the references I have, the prefix "uni" is directly from Latin
>while the word "code" is through French.
I wonder what "directly from Latin" may mean in the case of English. Because
of some timing problems, I would say it means: "through direct knowledge of
*written* Latin".
A direct derivation from Latin of English "uni-" would imply that, at some
age, English scholars used to read Latin with a pronunciation influenced by
French. In fact, the initial [ju:] is the regular English approximation of
French vowel [y]. (Is this likely?)
>The Indo-European would have been *oi-no-kau-do ("give one strike"): *kau
>apparently being related to [...] caudal, [...]
Wow! So Unicode also means "single tail", after all... What would that be in
Chinese? :-)
Marco
