Re: 0027, 02BC, 2019, or a new character?

[Richard Wordingham via Unicode]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 07:59:11 +0530
Shriramana Sharma via Unicode  wrote:

> IMO it's hardly clear that that is or in fact *what* is meant by a
> standard keyboard. It meeely seems to me loose political speak to
> make it appear as if they are trying to make things simpler for the
> people.

>From what I could find on the web, it seems that desktop keyboards in
Kazakhstan are normally labelled with Kazakh Cyrillic and printable
ASCII.  The ASCII is arranged as US QWERTY.

> It shouldn't. At least the technical advisors should be monitoring
> this discussion if not participate in it. I know that Govt of India
> people do, at least on UnicoRe.

The Indian Government is an institutional member of Unicode, with a
UTC vote when they attend regularly.

Richard.

Re: 0027, 02BC, 2019, or a new character?

[Philippe Verdy via Unicode]

Great but then why sticking on a pure western subset (ASCII is mostly for
US only). If he wants to be eastern, so choose ISO 8859-2.

As a bonus, banning the apostrophe from the alphabet will have be security
improvement (thing about the many cases where ASCII apostrophes are used as
string delimiters in various programming and markup languages, and how
frequently text variables  get simply surrounded by ASCII quotes as if the
text did not contain them: less frequent problems if the natural
orthography avoids it. Less problems for processing texts internationally
(think about technical documents, and air navigation, where local place
names are inserted; even if these systems use UTF-8, the quotes will still
need escaping and escaping mechanisms are not so universal...).


2018-01-25 4:27 GMT+01:00 Mark E. Shoulson via Unicode 
:

> On 01/24/2018 09:29 PM, Shriramana Sharma via Unicode wrote:
>
> On 24-Jan-2018 00:25, "Doug Ewell via Unicode" 
> wrote:
>
> I think it's so cute that some of us think we can advise Nazarbayev on
> whether to use straight or curly apostrophes or accents or x's or
> whatever. Like he would listen to a bunch of Western technocrats.
>
>
> Sir why this assumption that everyone here is "western"? I'm situated at
> an even more eastern longitude than Kazakhstan.
>
> It hardly matters. As the intent here is to comment on Nazarbayev's
> putative view of these discussions, it's quite likely he would write the
> whole lot of us off as "Western technocrats" no matter what our longitudes.
>
> ~mark
>

Re: 0027, 02BC, 2019, or a new character?

[Philippe Verdy via Unicode]

I agree, and still you won't necessarily have to press a dead key to have
these characters, if you map one key where the Cyrillic letter was
producing directly the character with its accent.

No surprise for user, fast to type, easy to learn, typographically correct,
preserves the etymologies and allows preservation of culture with a basic
1:1 transliterator between the two scripts.

However, if you can type one key to produce one latin letter with its
accent, I don't see why it could not use the caron instead of the acute
above s and c, so that it is also immediately readable in other Eastern
European languages. In addition they'll get better font support for x and c
with caron than for s and c with acute and easy mappings from more
softwares that handle only 8 bit charsets. The ISO 8859-2 subset (or
Windows 1250) is the way to go if they don't want the complexity of the
dotless i from other Turkic  Latin alphabets.


2018-01-25 3:29 GMT+01:00 Shriramana Sharma via Unicode :

>
>
> On 23-Jan-2018 10:03, "James Kass via Unicode" 
> wrote:
>
> (bottle, east, skier, crucial, cherry)
> s'i's'a, s'yg'ys, s'an'g'ys'y, s'es'u's'i, s'i'i'e
> sxixsxa, sxygxys, sxanxgxysxy, sxesxuxsxi, sxixixe
> s̈ïs̈a, s̈yg̈ys, s̈an̈g̈ys̈y, s̈es̈üs̈i, s̈ïïe
> śíśa, śyǵys, śańǵyśy, śeśúśi, śííe
>
> Last one most readable of the lot IMO and it's close enough to the
> apostrophe option. IIANM the apostrophe is used as a dead key for the acute
> accent in some common international keyboard layouts already?
>
> I retract my earlier statement about digraphs probably being the best
> option. It was made without looking at the actual requirement. For such
> heavy usage, it would simply make things horrible.
>
> Acute accent for the win! 
>

Re: 0027, 02BC, 2019, or a new character?

[Mark E. Shoulson via Unicode]

On 01/24/2018 09:29 PM, Shriramana Sharma via Unicode wrote:
On 24-Jan-2018 00:25, "Doug Ewell via Unicode" > wrote:


I think it's so cute that some of us think we can advise Nazarbayev on
whether to use straight or curly apostrophes or accents or x's or
whatever. Like he would listen to a bunch of Western technocrats.


Sir why this assumption that everyone here is "western"? I'm situated 
at an even more eastern longitude than Kazakhstan.
It hardly matters. As the intent here is to comment on Nazarbayev's 
putative view of these discussions, it's quite likely he would write the 
whole lot of us off as "Western technocrats" no matter what our longitudes.


~mark

Re: 0027, 02BC, 2019, or a new character?

[David Starner via Unicode]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 6:31 PM Shriramana Sharma via Unicode <
unicode@unicode.org> wrote:

>
> On 23-Jan-2018 10:03, "James Kass via Unicode" 
> wrote:
>
> (bottle, east, skier, crucial, cherry)
> s'i's'a, s'yg'ys, s'an'g'ys'y, s'es'u's'i, s'i'i'e
> sxixsxa, sxygxys, sxanxgxysxy, sxesxuxsxi, sxixixe
> s̈ïs̈a, s̈yg̈ys, s̈an̈g̈ys̈y, s̈es̈üs̈i, s̈ïïe
> śíśa, śyǵys, śańǵyśy, śeśúśi, śííe
>
>
[...]


>
> I retract my earlier statement about digraphs probably being the best
> option. It was made without looking at the actual requirement. For such
> heavy usage, it would simply make things horrible.
>

I'd say that the words chosen for this discussion have been specifically
chosen for their heavy usage. Wikipedia has a translation of "All human
beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with
reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of
brotherhood.", in what I believe in the new apostrophe-laden orthography:

Barlyq adamdar tu'masynan azat ja'ne qadyr-qasi'eti men quqtary ten' bolyp
du'ni'ege keledi. Adamdarg'a aqyl-parasat, ar-ojdan berilgen, sondyqtan
olar bir-birimen tu'ystyq, bau'yrmaldyq qarym-qatynas jasau'lary ti'is.

It's not that bad, though apostrophes still aren't a orthographic win. I'm
voting for the Uniform Turkic Alphabet, for the grand total of zero my vote
is worth.

Re: 0027, 02BC, 2019, or a new character?

[Shriramana Sharma via Unicode]

On 24-Jan-2018 00:25, "Doug Ewell via Unicode"  wrote:

I think it's so cute that some of us think we can advise Nazarbayev on
whether to use straight or curly apostrophes or accents or x's or
whatever. Like he would listen to a bunch of Western technocrats.


Sir why this assumption that everyone here is "western"? I'm situated at an
even more eastern longitude than Kazakhstan.

An explicitly stated goal of the new orthography was to enable typing
Kazakh on a "standard keyboard," meaning an English-language one.


IMO it's hardly clear that that is or in fact *what* is meant by a standard
keyboard. It meeely seems to me loose political speak to make it appear as
if they are trying to make things simpler for the people.

Nazarbayev may ultimately be persuaded to embrace ASCII digraphs, which
also meet this goal, but this talk about U+2019 and U+02BC will make
exactly zero difference in Kazakh policy.


It shouldn't. At least the technical advisors should be monitoring this
discussion if not participate in it. I know that Govt of India people do,
at least on UnicoRe.

Re: 0027, 02BC, 2019, or a new character?

[Shriramana Sharma via Unicode]

On 23-Jan-2018 10:03, "James Kass via Unicode"  wrote:

(bottle, east, skier, crucial, cherry)
s'i's'a, s'yg'ys, s'an'g'ys'y, s'es'u's'i, s'i'i'e
sxixsxa, sxygxys, sxanxgxysxy, sxesxuxsxi, sxixixe
s̈ïs̈a, s̈yg̈ys, s̈an̈g̈ys̈y, s̈es̈üs̈i, s̈ïïe
śíśa, śyǵys, śańǵyśy, śeśúśi, śííe

Last one most readable of the lot IMO and it's close enough to the
apostrophe option. IIANM the apostrophe is used as a dead key for the acute
accent in some common international keyboard layouts already?

I retract my earlier statement about digraphs probably being the best
option. It was made without looking at the actual requirement. For such
heavy usage, it would simply make things horrible.

Acute accent for the win! 

Re: 0027, 02BC, 2019, or a new character?

[Philippe Verdy via Unicode]

So there will be a new administrative jargon in Kazakhstan that people
won't like, and outside the government, they'll continue using their
exiosting keyboards, and will only trnasliterate to Latin using a simple
1-t-to-1 mapping without the ugly apostrophes (most probably acute accents
on vowels, or carons like in Serbian, notably on 'c' and 's' where acute
accents are rarely found in many fonts : there's already a wide support
Latin alphabets of Serbian, Hungarian, Slovakian, Polish ; and the special
case for i can still avoid the computer nightmare of dotless vs. dotted
versions used in Turkish, by using acute accents instead of these damned
apostrophes...)

Newspapers and books will continue for a wihile being published in Cyrillic
(unless the Kazakh autority requires them to ban Cyrillic, but it will
likely occur first on TV).
Soon they will realize that this is not sustainable and that their decision
causes many more problems with international documents, and will finally
adopt the accents that will really promote their language to the web
instead of freezing it in the Dark Age of ambiguous ASCII used in the early
1960's (when even the Cyrillic alphabet was not supported)...

2018-01-24 23:19 GMT+01:00 Doug Ewell via Unicode :

> James Kass wrote:
>
> > Heh. We are offering sound advice. If people fail to heed it, that's
> > too bad.
>
> We're offering excellent advice, very well informed. But the leadership
> has made the decision that it has made. All the news stories say that
> linguistic experts in Kazakhstan offered similar good advice, and were
> disheartened to learn it was ignored completely.
>
> Richard Wordingham wrote:
>
> > Is it only in English then that typing an apostrophe key after a
> > letter can't be relied UPON to yield U+0027 rather than U+2019?
>
> Um, I always get U+0027 when I expect it.
>
> Oh wait, you must be talking about AutoCorrect on Microsoft Word. Just
> visit AutoCorrect Options and turn off that particular "replace as you
> type" option, and be done with it.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org
>
>
>

Re: 0027, 02BC, 2019, or a new character?

[Doug Ewell via Unicode]

James Kass wrote:

> Heh. We are offering sound advice. If people fail to heed it, that's
> too bad.

We're offering excellent advice, very well informed. But the leadership
has made the decision that it has made. All the news stories say that
linguistic experts in Kazakhstan offered similar good advice, and were
disheartened to learn it was ignored completely.

Richard Wordingham wrote:

> Is it only in English then that typing an apostrophe key after a
> letter can't be relied UPON to yield U+0027 rather than U+2019?

Um, I always get U+0027 when I expect it.

Oh wait, you must be talking about AutoCorrect on Microsoft Word. Just
visit AutoCorrect Options and turn off that particular "replace as you
type" option, and be done with it.
 
--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org

Re: Internationalization & Unicode Conference 2018

[Markus Scherer via Unicode]

If your presentation is accepted for the conference, you should get a hotel
discount.
markus

Internationalization & Unicode Conference 2018

[Andre Schappo via Unicode]

I am thinking that people at Internationalization & Unicode Conference 2018 may 
well be interested in my story and, at times difficult, journey. It has been a 
long journey. Title of my presentation would be "How I Internationalized my 
Computer Science Teaching".

Would any organisation on this list be willing to fund my attendance: travel 
from England, accommodation ...etc...

Alternatively, can you please point me to a funding body to which I can apply.

Thank you

André Schappo

Re: 0027, 02BC, 2019, or a new character?

[philip chastney via Unicode]

OK, he's no technocrat, but try googling  "tony blair kazakhstan"

and in case anybody's wondering what Nazarbayev got for his five million 
pounds, 
for a partial explanation, check out
  https://www.rt.com/uk/340035-blair-strike-kazakhstan-massacre/

it is not known if Blair profferred any advice on keyboard design, though,
so this may be off-topic

/phil


On Tue, 23/1/18, Doug Ewell via Unicode  wrote:

 Subject: Re: 0027, 02BC, 2019, or a new character?
 To: "Unicode Mailing List" 
 Date: Tuesday, 23 January, 2018, 6:51 PM
 
 I think it's so cute that some of us think we can advise Nazarbayev on
 whether to use straight or curly apostrophes or accents or x's or
 whatever. Like he would listen to a bunch of Western technocrats.